Pubs Code and the Adjudicator

Debate between Lord Jackson of Peterborough and Adrian Bailey

Thursday 14th April 2016 Westminster Hall

[Mr Bailey]

It is very helpful to have that on the record. I am sure that the Minister will understand, as I do, that often in politics perception can become reality, and if these rumours are going round, obviously that has considerable significance and could underlie or even reinforce the level of suspicion that exists about the proposed impartiality—

[Mr Jackson]

In an effort to be helpful and for the avoidance of doubt, let me point out that the Minister said on 10 March that Mr Newby had

“already started work. He has been very helpful to my officials in making sure that we have the pub code up and running, and ready to come before this House.”—[Official Report, 10 March 2016; Vol. 607, c. 425.]

Therefore, with all due respect to the Minister, there was some room for ambiguity and I am pleased that she has clarified that matter now.

[Mr Bailey]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, which demonstrates the source of the ambiguity. That is certainly something that needed to be clarified, because if there is any suspicion that the arbitrator is involved in the drafting of the code, that calls into question the future impartiality of its interpretation. His intervention also demonstrates how easy it is, in this rather long-standing antagonistic set of relationships, to set things going that could perhaps be remedied with a slightly different approach.

What is undeniable is the lack of trust from the tenants’ side on the appointment of Mr Newby. I do not like to prejudge that appointment. The hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) mentioned having some kind of pre-appointment hearing for the adjudicator. That had crossed my mind as being something that, if the Minister is to go ahead and make this appointment, might go some way to satisfying everybody. I am in a slightly difficult position, because I am not on the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee—as its former Chair, I do not feel that it is my job to start recommending what it should be doing now—but it would certainly fall within the Minister’s remit to perhaps gently suggest that it would be helpful for the Department to have such a hearing. I know that often there are informal channels of communication between Departments and Select Committees, and their roles can be reinforced if those channels are used properly. I gently suggest that the Minister could look, if not at a BIS Committee pre-appointment hearing, then at some form of parliamentary scrutiny that would enable an adequate response to the questions that are circulating.

In conclusion, I reinforce this point. The legislation has been a long time coming and people have devoted so much work to it. A successful outcome is so important. Given its long gestation, we do not want the legislation to be damaged at birth. I stress the need for the Minister to listen to the comments that have been made today. She should take them on board and provide mechanisms and responses that will not only enable the wider participants—the tenants, the community pubs and the beer-drinking community—to be satisfied, but Parliament, too. Every opportunity should be given for scrutiny to deliver that satisfaction. The importance of the industry to the individuals within it, the communities they represent and the economy as a whole is so great, and we want to get the legislation right. This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. I ask the Minister to listen to everyone to ensure that we get it right.

Student Visas

Debate between Lord Jackson of Peterborough and Adrian Bailey

Thursday 16th June 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Jackson]

The right hon. Gentleman has reiterated the points I am making. I will not repeat verbatim what Sir Andrew said in his evidence to the Committee in February—I think—but he said that he was mostly concerned about pre-degree education, language schools and “bogus” colleges and that he did not see the increase in student numbers per se as a “problem” for immigration. I do not dissent from that view; he and are at one. I resist the premise on which the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) proceeds, but I must be very careful because my brother is a professor at Nottingham university, so I am aware that it is a superb institution—he would expect me to say that, but nevertheless it is true.

The issue is not about reducing the number of students per se, but about closing loopholes and ensuring that we retain our integrity and reputation. If we look at pre-degree level courses, we must in fairness also look at the evidence over past years and draw a link between the number of students who have come into the country, over the past 15 years for example, and long-term economic migration and settlement. It would be foolish and short-sighted not to accept that many students have been economic migrants. We are looking perhaps at a reduction in student numbers of only about 10% from the 2009 figure of 270,000. No one has yet given detailed projections of how many of them would be in each sector.

On the face of it, yes, institutions will lose £105 million due to students not coming, but we must make the link and look at the opportunity cost—the displacement of indigenous people, who are British citizens, who are not in work and are on benefits as a result of jobs being taken by people who began as students but entered the work force. It is foolish to disregard that.

Even the Scottish Trades Union Congress and others have conceded that if we do not get a grip on that displacement and the corollary—the cost imposed on taxpayers—it will drive down wages and conditions, particularly for those in low-wage and low-skilled jobs in my constituency and others. That cannot be good for community cohesion and the economic well-being of the country.

[Mr Bailey]

In my constituency, regrettably, I do not have a university, but, equally regrettably, I do have a substantial British National party presence. Many of issues that the hon. Gentleman has brought up—the widening of the debate—are relevant to constituencies such as mine. I want to make it quite clear that representatives of local manufacturers have taken me round foundries and said to me, “The one thing that we do not want is a block on immigration, because we cannot get people from our own indigenous population to work in the foundries”. It is only by recruiting from outside that we have managed to sustain the jobs of the indigenous people who work in the foundries. Does the hon. Gentleman accept it from me that the issue is far more complex than he has articulated?

[Mr Jackson]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman in the great socialist spirit articulates the point of view of the forces of capital, because they will almost always seek to drive down wages.

[Mr Bailey]

The hon. Gentleman is putting words into my mouth. I am articulating the role that immigrant labour can play in supplementing British businesses employing British white indigenous workers.

[Mr Jackson]

My hon. Friend the Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson), who is a very wise man, has reminded me of the hon. Gentleman’s party’s trouble over the concept of, “British jobs for British workers.” There was a pretty sharp U-turn over that. I am not mentioning creed, religion or colour, but economic and social trends in demography. I respect the hon. Gentleman in this instance because he is speaking for his constituents, as he is elected to do, and is a long-standing Member of the House, but I am also speaking for my constituents and from the position of having had between 16,000 and 20,000 migrants—admittedly from the EU—move to my constituency since 2004, because it is a centre for agriculture, horticulture and food processing and manufacturing. There has been displacement and pressure on maternity and other health services, housing, and in terms of crime, policing. Thirty-one per cent of children in my primary schools speak English as an additional language.

I concur with the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz): I accept that EU migration is sui generis, but it is because we can debate immigration in a reasonable and considered way that we do not give in to the BNP and allow it to spread its spite and division and destroy social cohesion. Unless we have a grown-up, truthful and honest debate, we will be in a difficult position.

Others wish to speak, so I will conclude as soon as possible. The number of overstayers has been assessed at about 32,000, as a rough guess, in recent figures by the Home Office. The focus is on overstayers. The UN definition of “migrant” has been mentioned. The hon. Member for Sheffield Central handled that issue sensibly. There is a debate to be had about the United Nations definition and whether students are economic migrants or merely temporary numbers in the system. That is fair enough. We hope to resolve that issue through e-Borders and discussions with European Union Governments, although I bring him back to the United Nations rather than the United States adopting that particular definition.

I respect the views of hon. Members and of the higher education sector, which is undoubtedly a vested interest and will seek to defend its business model as much as anyone else. We have seen other public services do so this week. Those in the higher education sector are articulate and can influence parliamentarians and others, for instance in the media, but they should remember that they have a responsibility to people who are not so articulate. They have a responsibility to develop scholarships and outreach programmes for people in this country, they have a wider remit to upskill people who might never have had an opportunity to go to university and they have a responsibility to drive social mobility. That is the challenge for universities.

I believe that the proposals are absolutely correct. They have taken on board the concerns of higher education institutions and others, and I think that they will deal with the issue of bogus students and colleges. I commend them to the House with the proviso that feedback will continue. In all sincerity, I do not believe that they will do anything but enhance the reputation and long-term viability of higher education institutions in this country.