House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Hill of Oareford

Friday 28th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)]

My Lords, as we have heard, it is the sixth time that my noble friend Lord Steel has launched a Bill on House of Lords reform upon the waters. On previous occasions the winds have blown and the seas have been stormy; various pieces of ballast have had to be thrown overboard. Finally, we have the chance today to help my noble friend steer his Bill safely to harbour. The clear mood of this House is that we want to do so. We are all grateful to him for his perseverance. This time last year a very similar Bill fell in the other place. Having spoken to my noble friend after that, I am pretty sure that he was ready to throw in the towel.

One year on, the Government’s position on the need for more fundamental House of Lords reform has not changed; that is, in support of a largely elected House. I was not altogether clear from the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, whether he was beginning a stately retreat from the opposition party’s position on the need for a reformed House. But we will see that in the fullness of time.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I cannot resist the temptation. I have made it absolutely clear that we are committed to substantive reform, but that should not be at the expense of sensible, moderate change, which is why we support the Bill.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

We will see what happens in due course. However, I think that a number of the proposals sketched out in the Daily Telegraph, to which noble Lords have alluded, would not constitute in most people’s minds moderate reforms of the sort proposed by my noble friend Lord Steel, which, after much difficulty, we can now support. I think we are agreed that his proposals are modest and consensual. Therefore, the only logical conclusion from what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has said is that, should the party opposite gain office, it would bring forward a stream of legislation on House of Lords reform. That legislation would, first, seek to limit the size of the House, then propose a retirement scheme, before moving in short order to propose an elected House. We can all look forward to the possibility of a constant stream of constitutional reform from the party opposite.

However, so far as this Bill is concerned, which is what we are here to talk about today, I am extremely glad that the Government’s position on these provisions has changed and that I can support the Bill. I thank my noble friend and especially Mr Dan Byles, as we all have, who have helped us to get to this point. I also thank Mr Dan Byles for standing through our debate this morning.

As we have heard, this is a modest Bill, perhaps more modest than those on both wings of the debate might like. Nevertheless, it is a sensible Bill. I would like to say a few words about the three main provisions covering criminal convictions, non-attendance and retirement. The first provides for the expulsion from the House of Members convicted of a serious criminal offence and jailed for more than a year. This will not cover many Members, I hope, but it closes a loophole and is also of a piece with other steps that I have been keen to take, which help to reinforce our commitment to the highest possible standards, and our determination to police ourselves effectively. I think that speaks to the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, and the noble Baroness, Lady Flather.

These steps have already included tightening up the Code of Conduct with the introduction of a new sanction which would enable the House to deny access to financial support and facilities to those whose behaviour falls below the standards we demand. I am extremely proud of the work of this House and the behaviour of noble Lords, but I am clear that we need to have a range of measures at our disposal so that we can take action against those who fall short. I shall continue to explore in the Privileges Committee, among other places, all options short of legislation which will help in this task. I agree with those who have said that the reputation of the many needs to be defended against the behaviour of the few. In that context, the measure in the Bill on criminal convictions is a welcome addition to the measures we have in our armoury.

The Bill’s second provision deals with Peers who do not attend the House. Of course, membership of our House is not full time, and nor should it be. One of our strengths is that Peers can bring up-to-date experience to bear from other walks of life. However, we support the intention of the Bill that Peers who never attend and have not sought leave of absence from this House should be permanently excluded.

The third provision concerns retirement. Under the Bill, retirement will be legally binding and irreversible. This seems to me a sensible step forward from the current voluntary scheme, of which the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, is to be only the fourth, and, I suspect, the last Member to take advantage. The warmth of the tributes we have heard today are the surest and most eloquent sign of the highest regard in which the noble Lord has been held throughout his 18 years in our House. I cannot add to and improve on what has been said. However, the noble Lord hinted that he might pick up his pen yet again and add to the list of his novels, which some noble Lords may have read—I think that one is entitled Margot and another The Gazelle and which I am sure are available through Amazon at the same price as my own book, which is 1p. However, you do have to pay for postage. The noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, will clearly be sorely missed. It is impossible to mistake the genuine affection in all the comments made about him today.

If the Bill is passed, the next question is how we can encourage more noble Lords to take advantage of the retirement scheme. I should say straightaway that, as noble Lords know, I do not believe that any kind of financial incentive would be justifiable. As I have said before, I know that the group leaders and the Convenor strongly support this view. However, as many noble Lords have said in the course of our debate, we could do more to mark the permanent retirement of a Peer. We have heard several proposals this morning, including the introduction of a retirement ceremony in the Chamber, the farewell speech suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, tributes and various other suggestions. The Bill rightly leaves these matters for the House to decide. However, I strongly encourage noble Lords to let me have suggestions which we can look at in more detail. Then, with the help of the Clerk of the Parliaments and in consultation with the Lord Speaker, we could see what range of measures could be considered.

There has been a fair bit of discussion about the absence of a cooling-off period in the Bill. I probably do not need to add too much to what has been said, not least most recently by my noble friend Lord Wakeham. I think we are all clear that we do not expect this to be a practical problem. Our own Constitution Committee was very clear on that point and concluded that the Bill raised,

“no problems of constitutional concern”.

We do not accept that, without a mandatory minimum interval, this House would become a training ground for MPs. I do not believe that party leaders would be tempted by such a scheme, but, even more so, it seems to me unlikely that a Peer would want to resign from this place when the Bill makes it absolutely clear that they would never be able to come back, so it could not be a two-way journey between the two Houses. That said, I understand the concerns raised about it. Therefore, like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, I put on the record that, were that to become a problem in the future, we would want to review the situation. There is always an option to legislate to sort it out, should that be necessary.

My noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral raised the question of a fund for Peers who were no longer able to attend the House and who fell into hardship. There is absolutely nothing to stop noble Lords contributing to a pot of money for that purpose. I would not support taxpayers’ money being used for that on the same basis that I would not support it being used for some other kind of financial incentive. As regards where that idea has got to, my understanding is that as the fund could not be a charity, because the only beneficiaries would be Members of this House and because of other practical issues, the idea has slightly run into the sand. However, I would be very happy to discuss that further with my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral, as I always am, if he would like to do so.

At the outset, my noble friend Lord Steel asked me to set out what the next practical steps would be in terms of setting up a scheme, if we pass the Bill, as I believe, and hope, that we will. There does not need to be a scheme as such; we would just need to take a number of relatively small practical steps of a housekeeping nature. For instance, in terms of retirement, we would need to consider abolishing the existing voluntary scheme in order to avoid any confusion. That is something we would take through the Procedure Committee. If we needed to bring in a procedure to allow incapacitated Peers to take retirement, that, again, would be a matter for the Procedure Committee. As regards the question around the retirement ceremony or other formal ways of marking the occasion, once we have worked up ideas, that, again, would be a matter for the Procedure Committee. As regards access to rights or privileges in the House—for example, being able to sit on the Steps of the Throne and the use of dining facilities—that would be a matter for the House Committee. However, I obviously undertake to discuss that with my noble friend Lord Steel to make sure that he knows the way in which we are taking it forward, and, with the help of the Clerk of the Parliaments, make sure that those things are done as speedily as is necessary once the Bill receives Royal Assent.

In a spirit of pragmatism, of which we have heard a lot this morning, I am delighted to support the Bill. I speak for the Government and, I believe, the whole House in saying that we should seize the opportunity presented to us today and help my noble friend Lord Steel and his Bill finally reach dry land.

House of Lords: Size

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Hill of Oareford

Tuesday 19th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am keen that we should have alternatives to the Grim Reaper. I shall certainly keep an eye on progress. The whole House will share my gratitude to my noble friend Lord Steel for his persistence in taking forward these issues. Therefore I am pleased, as I know he will be, that, following representations from a number of people, not least himself, the Government’s position has moved to one of support for the Private Member’s Bill sponsored by Dan Byles. The whole House will welcome that. It will deliver the benefits to which my noble friend referred.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, has the noble Lord read the study by UCL that shows that if the Government go ahead with their intention to rebalance the Lords according to the votes cast at the most recent general election, the size of this House would reach 1,200 or more? That would be a nonsense. Will the noble Lord reassure the House that no more political appointments will be made to your Lordships’ House until the next general election?

House of Lords: Membership

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Hill of Oareford

Thursday 28th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I am always in favour of people knowing about the things that they are talking about. I always listen with great care to what my noble friend Lord Elton says.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I shall respond very briefly. I welcome the willingness of the Leader of the House to seek advice from Members of your Lordships’ House. He is a fresh pair of eyes and we very much look forward to working with him. I also very much support his work in trying to encourage Members who perhaps are not as active as possible to participate more in the future. Ultimately, though, I was disappointed with his response. He started to trade statistics and there always seems to be a risk in doing so. My general conclusion is that whatever Government are in power, in general and over time that governing party will tend to see an increase in the number of seats they hold in the House of Lords. I certainly agree that we need fresh blood form time to time, and I actually agree that restraint has been shown so far. As the noble Lord, Lord Elton, said, the issue is the future. The rumours which have been around this House for quite a long time now are that the Government want to make a very large number of new appointments in the next few weeks or months. Above all, I hope that the noble Lord will consider this. The plea of restraint is very much directed at those future appointments.

The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, helpfully reminded the House of my own views on Lords reform. I was hoping that my noble friends behind me might forget that, but they are right—I have consistently voted in favour of an elected House. However, the Leader of the House essentially says that because the Commons voted at Second Reading for Mr Clegg’s Bill, that means that it would be wrong to put to them proposals for incremental housekeeping. As someone who favours an elected House I strongly refute that. First of all, that Bill did not go through. Secondly, under the proposals of Mr Clegg, or indeed those of my right honourable friend Mr Straw, if a party pledged an elected House of Lords and that party came into power in 2015, the first element of elected Members would not come to your Lordships’ House before 2020. That is seven years away. For the Leader of the House to say that no useful housekeeping or incremental change can take place before that moment is a matter of regret. I think that is the implication of what he said.

I do not think that we can wait. We need to indicate to the Government that sensible change ought to happen as soon as possible and say that we very much hope that restraint will be exercised in the appointment of new Members. It is important that the House has a way of indicating its support for those intentions, so I will put this to the vote.

House of Lords: Reform

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Hill of Oareford

Wednesday 6th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I understand that point. I have great respect for the noble Lord, Lord Steel, and am glad that I have already had the chance to discuss his proposals with him and others. I would be happy to do so again. He, I am sure, can use his powers of persuasion with colleagues in his own party, including the Deputy Prime Minister. I know that he will try and we will then see how we get on.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I would like to take him back to his first Answer. He suggested that it would be difficult to get a consensus in your Lordships’ House on interim changes. Why does he not put it to the test? There are various groups meeting at the moment in this House discussing these matters. There is a great deal of consensus. Why does he not call those groups together, or have a Leader’s Group, to see if we can make progress when there is a clear and huge majority of your Lordships’ House in favour of making sensible interim changes?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

Again, the noble Lord says there is a lot of consensus around this. The conversations I have had with people so far do not bear out that optimistic gloss. I am keen to talk to Members of this House who have views, and that is something I will continue to do.

Education (Exemption from School Inspection) (England) Regulations 2012

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Hill of Oareford

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the noble Lord will know that the chief inspector is laying much greater emphasis on the quality of teaching and learning in the new judgment on schools. I would imagine that that would mean that a number of schools graded outstanding under the old regime would not be outstanding under the new one. I seek reassurance on this. I understand the argument for schools that are graded outstanding by the new chief inspector under the new criteria that he has brought in, but what I do not understand is why schools that were graded outstanding under the previous criteria will continue to be treated as outstanding.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The basic response to the question comes in two parts. First, to reclassify retrospectively schools that were once classified in a particular way is difficult. The judgment that is made at the time should be based on the framework within which they are operating. Secondly, as far as how these schools will be picked up is concerned, we do not intend that they should be re-inspected automatically, because they were found outstanding under the existing framework. But the point about outstanding teaching would be precisely the kind of issue that, in terms of prioritising schools for risk assessment, Ofsted would put at the top of its list with the focus that it now gives to outstanding teaching.

As I said on Report, Ofsted will carry out a targeted review during the academic year 2012-13 to look specifically at where the safeguarding arrangements remain strong in a sample of outstanding primary and secondary schools. The findings from that review will be published and used to inform the effectiveness of the new arrangements. We know much more about schools. We need to use inspection wisely and effectively. We know, including from recent evidence from the Institute of Education, that inspection has most impact in weaker schools. That is why we are keen to target inspection there.

There is no evidence that Ofsted is going soft on schools. Most of the time the department gets comments in the opposite direction. If anything the chief inspector has signalled a tougher approach, but it is right to recognise those schools that have demonstrated the strongest performance. We want to encourage the best school leaders to play a full and active part in wider system improvement, working in partnership with other schools, in federations and chains, as well as more formally, such as becoming national leaders in education. As my noble friend Lady Perry argued, we need to signal our trust in these leaders. One way of doing this is by recognising their hard work and not requiring them to be routinely inspected and asking them to spend more time working with other schools.

The noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley, asked me about special schools. As far as vulnerable children are concerned the reason why the exemption regulations do not apply to special schools—pupil referral units and nurseries—is because we recognise that there is a concern about vulnerable children. We want the reassurance of knowing before one were to exempt them that we could satisfy ourselves that that was a wise course of action. The current intention is that they will undergo routine inspection, but we will keep that under review.

Schools: Satellite Sites

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Hill of Oareford

Tuesday 27th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

As I said, my Lords, the fundamental position on opening a satellite school has not changed. There is a process in place if people want to come forward with a proposal to open or expand a satellite school, they can apply to the local authority, and to the Secretary of State in the case of an academy. Those proposals would be looked at on a case-by-case basis. The bar on new provision is absolute and clear, and it is not the case that the Government are seeking to shift that position either by the front or the back door.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, in the circumstances described by the noble Baroness, it would appear that simply by calling a new school in essence a satellite extension, from what the noble Lord has said, it looks like it might be permitted. Is it not a fact that the Government’s policies are leading to much more selective education? How will we ensure fair admissions to our schools?

Education Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Hill of Oareford

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

No, that should not be an issue. There would not be a charge in those circumstances. Perhaps I might move on because I want to respond to the underlying concerns about the risk assessment process and to some of the suggestions made by my noble friend Lady Perry and others.

On my noble friend Lady Walmsley’s important point about safeguarding, we know that Ofsted’s evidence shows that outstanding schools perform well in terms of safeguarding. Schools remain under a duty to have appropriate arrangements in place to safeguard and promote the welfare of their pupils, and we do not think there is reason to think that outstanding schools would not take that matter seriously. There would be a mechanism for concerns to feed in to Ofsted’s risk assessment process, and those concerns might come from parents, the local authority, the local safeguarding children board or any other local body or person.

We recognise that safeguarding is a hugely important issue and we intend to commission Ofsted to undertake a survey of safeguarding procedures in a sample of exempt schools and ask the inspectorate to publish its findings. On the basis of that evidence we could consider whether any further measures are necessary.

I was asked a number of specific questions about exemptions and who would be exempt. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, asked me that. We issued draft regulations in the other place in March making clear that our plan is to exempt only schools that were outstanding at their last inspection. So the definition is their status at the Ofsted inspection. It could include maintained schools, academies and whatever; it is not a special exemption for any particular groups.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

The Secretary of State can, of course, produce draft regulations in future using the clause in this Bill to exempt any category of school he wanted. My second argument here, going beyond inspections, is that this is a great, open-ended power. I am interested to know why outstanding schools were not specified in the Bill because that would give a certain reassurance.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I will write on the point of detail. I had this explained to me earlier. The difficulty is because an Ofsted category is not a statutory definition. That is the problem and why it is hard to put it in the Bill. I will make sure that I have got that right and I will write, but I believe that is the explanation.

Schools: Homophobic Bullying

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Hill of Oareford

Thursday 14th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I agree with the noble Lord. He may know that some proposed new standards for qualifications have been published today by a group that has been advising the department. Those standards will then work through to what the initial teacher training providers provide. However, the noble Lord is obviously right; we want to make sure that teachers responsible for classrooms are properly and broadly trained in maintaining a good environment in which to learn, which will include an important focus on maintaining order and discipline and trying to minimise bullying.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the Leader of the House. The Minister invested in his Answer considerable confidence in Ofsted inspections, but he will know that in Clause 39 of the Education Bill, which is currently going through your Lordships’ House, the Secretary of State is taking powers to categorise classes of school that will no longer have to receive regular Ofsted inspections. What is the logic of removing schools from those regular inspections, given the problem of bullying that has been reflected here today? It is also known that a considerable proportion of category 1 schools are reduced in category on subsequent inspections.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The objective of the Bill, as in a number of areas, is to try to have a proportionate approach to inspection that is backed up by safeguards. I recognise that schools in an outstanding category can fall out of it, which is why Ofsted will have powers to carry on not only thematic assessments but risk assessments. Any member of the public or local authorities who have concerns of the sort that the noble Lord raises will be able to go to Ofsted and ask for an inspection.

Children: Adoption

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Hill of Oareford

Thursday 9th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

It is absolutely the case. With all these difficult issues, the paramount point is to protect the rights of the child. I completely agree with my noble friend that one should make sure that parents, too, have every opportunity and right to make their views known. As part of the review of the family justice system, the point that my noble friend makes will be borne very much in mind.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the noble Lord talked about the necessity of having well trained social workers. Does he think that the review being undertaken might look at the curriculum for social work training to see whether any changes or developments need to be made?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I will need to follow up on that point. I will come back to the noble Lord, if I may.

Academies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Hill of Oareford

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the points that have been raised and believe that I can provide that reassurance. First, I echo the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about the importance of governors, which is accepted across all sides of the House. The point that lies behind the amendment has been raised in debate before, and I apologise if I have not made the situation sufficiently clear. The arrangements for the collection of parent governors are set out in the articles of association of the academy trust, which are agreed between the academy trust and the Secretary of State. Those articles are annexed to and form part of the funding agreement, which, as we know, is what controls the relationship between the Secretary of State and the academy, and always has done.

The model articles state that—I am sorry if this was not appended to the model funding agreement:

“the Parent Governor(s) shall be elected by parents of registered pupils at the Academy. A Parent Governor must be a parent of a pupil at the Academy at the time when he is elected”.

The articles therefore make clear, first, that the election of governors should be by parents of pupils attending the academy and, secondly, that parent governors must be drawn from among the parents of pupils at the academy. Those are the current arrangements for the election of parent governors in academies, and I believe that they are known to be effective.

The articles of association of an academy trust cannot be amended without the agreement of the Secretary of State, so the position as set out in the articles cannot be unilaterally changed by an academy. The previous Government argued and accepted that the funding agreement was the right place to deal with issues of that kind, and I agree with them. We do not need a requirement in the Bill of the sort set out in the amendment. That said, I take the point that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, just intended to clarify the situation. I hope that that has done so and provides reassurance to all noble Lords who have raised the point. With that, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that; it very much reassures me and other noble Lords. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, raised the question of new schools, which do not have an existing governing body. It would be difficult to see how you could include the parents of children who have not yet enrolled in the school, but perhaps that takes us to consultation issues that would probably be better dealt with in a later debate. In not pressing the amendment, I should say that the overall view of many noble Lords is that the stronger the parental involvement in academy governing bodies, the better.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, there seem to be two issues here: one is the question of how to deal effectively with low-incidence SEN and the necessary funding arrangements; and the second is the issue of whether the other place is going to have any time at all to deal with this matter, as some noble Lords hope it will.

On the question of the principle, throughout this Bill the Minister has described the tension between the risks on the one hand and the advantages on the other of each academy having much more discretion over its own budget. We well understand that. As they start off, the governing bodies are bound to be conservative in their budget-making, because that is what new bodies and entities do. The risk is that they will not make an upfront investment in these services. The risk is that by the time they find they need to invest, these services will have gone out of business. That is the essential concern—it is not the principle. I have no problem with what the noble Lord has written in his letter about where governing bodies may look for future services. One can see a potential train crash in this area and so far we have not had the necessary reassurance to know that a mechanism is in place to ensure that it will not happen. I again ask the Minister why the role of the local authority is being overlooked in this area. I do not see why we should shy away from giving local authorities responsibility.

Yesterday we had a four-hour debate on working practices in your Lordships' House. A week ago we had a seven-hour debate on reform of your Lordships' House. The consensus view of the dozens of noble Lords who spoke in those debates was that this House is the effective revising Chamber and this House is the place that effectively scrutinises legislation. Yet we are told that noble Lords who share that concern are prepared to leave it to the other place to deal with this matter. My understanding is that this Bill will be finished in the other place in two weeks’ time because a rushed programme will enable it to get through. There is virtually no possibility that the other place will be able to consider this matter in detail. That is why the matter should be decided in your Lordships' House.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I am grateful for the points that have been raised in this debate. We have, rightly, spent a lot of time on this Bill talking about various sensitive issues to do with our most vulnerable children. As I said in Committee and on Report, I accept the practical concerns raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, and others. When we met yesterday, we went through some of those. I hope that some of the answers I can give this afternoon may take us a little further. However, I certainly recognise the concerns that she has raised.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, and others have been kind enough to accept that, with the parameters within which I am operating, I have sought in general to approach SEN issues throughout this Bill with an open mind and, so much as I have been able, taken concerns on board. I hope that, in some cases, I have gone further than perhaps noble Lords thought was likely to be the case when this process started.

On the specific point of low-incidence SEN, I can say to the noble Baroness that, as part of looking at funding for academies from 2011 onwards, we will work closely with local authorities. I accept the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about the importance of local authorities and other parties in this area. I can confirm that we will look specifically at the funding of low-incidence SEN. This work will start during the autumn. I have today instructed officials to ensure that the Special Educational Consortium is kept abreast of developments and is able to make its views known. It is extremely important that it has that opportunity and we shall reflect on the points that it makes to us. We are committed to ensuring that children with sensory impairments in both the maintained and academies sectors receive the services that they require.

We have also established an advisory group to help us work through the issues particular to SEN and special schools in relation to the establishment of academies. We want to use the practical expertise in that sector and the group will include heads and governors from special schools and mainstream schools with specialist units, as well as local authority representation at officer and political level. As I said on Report, and as I underlined to the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, yesterday when we met, I am very happy to put on the record our undertaking to monitor the impact of increasing numbers of academies on local authority sensory impairment services. We will continue to work with local authorities to ensure that adjustments to their funding in respect of academies properly reflect their continuing responsibilities. Our officials will also work with organisations such as the National Sensory Impairment Partnership on this.

Listening to the debate, I am very conscious that I am not expert on SEN, and I am not the Minister responsible. However, as part of the advisory groups and the work we will be taking forward, I would be very happy to enable a proper exchange with the relevant Minister in the department so that we can work through these issues, using the experience and expertise of noble Lords, to make sure we come up with practical solutions that meet the concerns that noble Lords have raised. So I am alive to the concerns. I hope that the noble Baroness will feel that that provides some slight further reassurance from yesterday. In the light of that I ask her kindly to withdraw her amendment.

Academies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Hill of Oareford

Wednesday 7th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, first, I thank the Minister for his letter to my noble friend, which has been extremely helpful and has very much informed our debate. As I said in an earlier debate on SEN, the response that academies can buy SEN support services from their local authority, from neighbouring authorities or from other providers is in itself unexceptional. It is absolutely right that academies should be able to do that.

There could be a problem in two cases. The first, which was mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, is where an expensive support service is required for an individual student. Secondly—I am thinking of our previous debates on the role of governing bodies—I should have thought that when academies are first established their governing bodies will be very cautious when it comes to budget making. That will be entirely understandable. I can see that budgets for expensive special support services will be cut back as it will be the natural thing to do. By the time they realise that that was probably a mistake because they are faced with demands that must be met, the risk is that the kind of high quality services funded at present by local authorities will have gone out of business. That is why the Government need to reflect carefully to ensure that good services are protected.

I know that the noble Lord has talked about partnerships and we would all like to hear more about that, but this is an area in which there could be a positive role for local authorities. Again I urge the Government to think carefully. If they do not take action in this area there will be a decline in the special support services that are required. Surveys will be undertaken and because the Government are taking local authorities out of the picture the problem will come right back to Ministers. They may think that in developing this new system they can withdraw and say that it is the responsibility of individual academies, but I can tell the Minister from bitter experience that in the end it will come back to Ministers who will have to have a response.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I will be fairly brief because in our earlier exchange I accepted the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that as regards low-incidence SEN there is an issue that we need to look at.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, for referring to the work that my officials have been doing with her and the National Sensory Impairment Partnership. She made a powerful case, and I shall reflect on what she said and perhaps talk to her further about it. If she can spare the time we can meet officials to consider practical ways forward. I do not have an answer tonight and I cannot go further than I should, but I hope that she and others will accept that on the issue of SEN I have sought to be sensitive. I am not dismissive and if the noble Baroness will agree to meet, we can discuss her concerns. If she thinks that that is a fair and reasonable way forward, perhaps she will withdraw her amendment and we can meet outside the House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am sure that all noble Lords would thank the Minister for this. I wish to ask him a question. Yesterday we debated the small primary school that would have been able to become a foundation trust. Today, we have the announcement of the review of the UEA e-mail issue in relation to climate change scientific research, which in itself raises FOI issues. All of us who have been involved in public authorities know that establishing the apparatus and support mechanisms to deal with FOI requests can be considerable. I can envisage a school, perhaps not so much a primary but a secondary, dealing with admission issues and being subject to FOI requests, which is quite likely. My question for the Minister is: what support mechanism will be put in place to help schools deal with the FOI system, because they will need something.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, that is a very fair and sensible point. At the moment, maintained schools would be helped by the local authority. I take the noble Lord’s point. Academies which find themselves in that situation will need the kind of support that he is talking about. We will think about that within the department. I do not know whether the department is the right place to deal with this—it may well be. I take the noble Lord’s point; I agree with him and I will reflect on it. Perhaps I can let him know how we get on.

Academies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Hill of Oareford

Wednesday 7th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I associate myself with the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, on Amendment 6. Academies are subject to the same statutory framework in respect of temporary and permanent exclusions as all other state-funded schools, which is welcome. We know that academies have had higher rates of exclusion than other state-funded schools and it is clear that there would be an impact on neighbouring schools if academies in general excluded more pupils but then did not take excluded pupils from elsewhere in the education area.

There are reasons for this in the current academy scheme, where often highly challenging schools were converted into academies and discipline was frequently a top priority. Where there is a large number of academies, it is important that they take their fair share of excluded pupils.

In government, we established a requirement on all schools, including academies, to participate in behaviour and attendance partnerships that involve other schools and have access to support from other children’s services. This was based on a clear understanding of the potential benefits of collaboration between schools and local authorities in the promotion of good pupil behaviour. I can see nothing in the Bill that links the new academies with a requirement to participate in behaviour partnerships. I hope that the Minister can assure us that academies will continue to do so.

I was very much involved in the establishment of NHS foundation trusts and there are clear parallels with academies. Foundation trusts were set up in the context of a statutory duty of partnership. There was a clear recognition of that in the National Health Service, whatever role different organisations played. NHS foundation trusts had a membership and a governing body, so those institutions were standing on their own two feet more than other parts of the National Health Service. Nevertheless, they were still part of the NHS. A duty was laid on them to work with others. It is a pity in some ways that we do not have a similar understanding that there should be a duty of partnership here. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, raises those issues in her group of amendments and we look forward to a constructive reply from the Minister.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, in essence, this group of amendments would put on the face of the legislation requirements that are covered by academy funding agreements. As we know, since their inception, academies have been regulated by funding agreements. That was thought to be appropriate for many years, including by the previous Government and we agree with them. We intend to retain the funding agreement route as the principal regulatory mechanism for academies. I know that I deviated from this principle in relation to SEN, because we recognise that there are specific concerns around that about which I wanted to send a signal. But as a matter of principle, we are keen to stick to the well established idea that these safeguards should be delivered through the funding agreement.

On Amendment 6, I hope that I can provide my noble friend Lady Walmsley with some reassurance. Funding agreements require that academies act in accordance with the law on exclusions as if the academy were a maintained school. They have to have regard to the Secretary of State’s guidance on exclusions as set out in paragraph 1 of annexe D to the funding agreement. I have shared with noble Lords the new version of the exclusions annexe to the funding agreements, which continues to impose these legal requirements on academies. I am happy to put on the record that this annexe will be included in all future academy arrangements, both contractual funding agreements and grant arrangements.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the noble Lord said that he had shared that information with noble Lords. It would be helpful to clarify how it has been shared. Certainly yesterday we received a number of letters in the pigeonholes outside the Chamber, which meant that it was available in essence after the first day of Report had started. I hope that we can get those well in advance in future.

Academies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Hill of Oareford

Tuesday 6th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, this has been a short, interesting debate. I too support the amendments moved by the noble Baroness. In relation to funding, three issues have been raised today and in our previous discussions. First, there is a need for much greater clarity about how these financial arrangements will work. Secondly, there is the question of equity between schools. Thirdly, as the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, suggested, there is a question of whether there will be sufficient resources for the kind of special services that some schools will require.

On clarity, very shortly before our debate today, I received the model funding agreement, as I am sure other noble Lords did. While it is always welcome to receive the funding agreement, in the short time available we have not been able to study it carefully. It therefore would not be amiss to have an opportunity to come back at Third Reading after we have had time consider it more fully. It is helpful to us in these debates.

I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Hill, will be aware of paragraph 17 of the model funding agreement, which relates to pupils. It starts with the statement:

“The Academy will be an all ability inclusive school”.

Which of these provisions would apply to those grammar schools which select their pupils and choose to become an academy? To what extent does this model funding agreement apply to those schools? In terms of equity, it is very important that we know the answer.

My second point as regards equity goes back to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. We have been told:

“Funding of academies will be broadly comparable with that of maintained schools, taking into account their additional responsibilities. While converting to academy status will give schools additional freedoms, those who opt to stay within local authority control will not be financially disadvantaged”.

That is a welcome statement of intent. But, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, has pointed out, there is some concern within educational circles that this may not prove to be the outcome following publication of the ready reckoner and the technical note. I am not going to bore the House by going into the details of the ready reckoner, but it is a point that the noble Lord may wish to come back to.

In Committee we discussed the different approach of the seven-year arrangement with schools, and those are the arrangements that are likely to apply to free schools. The noble Lord said then that there would need to be, in a sense, a get-out clause if for one reason or another it was shown that a free school was perhaps not able to handle the funding arrangements or there were problems which meant that the Secretary of State would not want to get himself into a long-term commitment. I understand that, but it identifies a problem with the whole process of approving free schools by this route. It suggests that the Government are not confident that they will have a rigorous process in place, and that is why they are unwilling to agree to the seven-year commitment. For that reason, I strongly support the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness.

Finally, I come back to the whole question of clarity. I believe that we need further clarity because these financial arrangements are complex and it is important that all schools feel that the system is fair and equitable. Further, I would remind the noble Lord of the suggestion made by my noble friend Lord Adonis that there is a case for having some kind of independent process of assessment and reporting on the overall scheme for funding academies. I know that the noble Lord has put forward his proposal for how that is to be done, but my noble friend’s suggestion of an organisation like the National Audit Office, one that stands well outside the educational establishment, would command greater confidence. Overall, however, this debate has shown that much more remains to be discussed in relation to the financial consequences of this legislation, and I for one hope that the noble Baroness might press her amendment today.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I start by saying to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and other noble Lords that I am sorry that the model funding agreement did not get to them any earlier. I know that there is a lot to take on board and that it is a long document. On his particular point about paragraph 17, the model will need some changes to reflect the particular circumstances of individual schools, which I hope answers his question.

Like the noble Lord, I am grateful to my noble friends for raising the issue of grant funding and for giving me the opportunity, I hope, to reassure them and the rest of the House as far as I am able. On Amendments 2, 19 and 19A, as we discussed at an earlier stage and to which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has just referred, the rationale for allowing the Secretary of State to fund via a grant in what is likely to be a small number of cases is to provide more flexibility, and as we have also discussed, we envisage a grant being used particularly in response to proposals for a free school where by definition there is no track record. We think that this flexibility makes more sense than committing to seven years at the beginning, but I want to emphasise that we expect this to be a minority of cases.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am happy to give that reassurance, but also to make the point that, as the noble Baroness, will know, because of other amendments which I have moved on SEN, with the support of this House we will include in the Bill a commitment that there should be absolute parity in all academies on SEN comparable to that in all maintained schools.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, this has been a very good debate and I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, for trying to take over her amendment, Amendment 5. The noble Baroness, Lady Williams, put it right at the start of our debate when she talked about the role of primary schools being at the heart of many local communities. All noble Lords agree with that. That means that we should be especially careful about legislation which could have an impact on those schools. That is why noble Lords want to be assured that there will be a rigorous scrutiny process enabling us to understand whether schools are ready to take on the responsibilities which academy status will bring.

The point which has not been responded to fully is that all evidence suggests that primary schools depend the most on local education authorities. That is why we are concerned not about the principle of academy status for primary schools but about capacity. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, did not take my remarks as meaning to criticise the capacity of leadership in primary schools; I did not seek to do so. The managerial structure within most primary schools is fairly limited. That is not about the capacity of the people, it is simply about the number of people. She will know that they do not have the managerial structures that many secondary schools have. I agree with her—many governing bodies are indeed excellent—but they still need to reflect on the corporate responsibility that they would be taking on if they went down the path of academy status. We should not underestimate those additional responsibilities.

It has been said in our debate that there are two locks. The first lock is that the Secretary of State himself will have to approve any application. We are reassured that there will be a rigorous process in so doing. I make two points about that. First, the message coming from the Secretary of State is that he is anxious to secure as many academy schools as possible. That is why I question the rigour of the process. Secondly, I come back to the point that I raised in Committee. I know that the Minister has now tabled an amendment about consultation, but the fact is that, none the less, the Bill gives the Secretary of State a huge amount of power without parliamentary scrutiny. That is why I am very worried, particularly in relation to primary schools, about just letting the Bill go through.

The second point, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, concerns the second lock, which is that of the governing body. Of course, governing bodies will be able to decide whether or not to take an application forward, but in our previous debate, we discussed the many financial uncertainties that are readily apparent in the academy programme at the moment. I question whether governing bodies, especially of primary schools, are really in a position to make those decisions on the basis of the information that they have at the moment.

My noble friend Lord Knight spoke about the potential of all-through academies. My amendments are not intended to remove all-through schools from the legislation. Third reading is always an opportunity to tidy up legislation, but I want to make it clear that the amendments do not seek to remove all-through academies from the Bill.

Like the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, I am at heart concerned about the pace. We are going too fast, particularly in relation to primary schools. I understand the point the Minister makes about holding back; he made it in Committee. It is one approach, but I think it would be much better to get the policy sorted and to understand where the support for primary schools will come from. Primary schools will need support. The Minister happily has another Bill coming to your Lordships House in a matter of months. Surely we should leave primary schools aside until that point to give his department some months to sort this out. Then I am sure we would look with confidence to agreeing to legislation that would embrace primary schools.

Having heard the Minister, I feel that this is a matter on which we should test the opinion of the House.

Academies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Hill of Oareford

Monday 28th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I support this amendment and I certainly think that the issue of helping children to enjoy wholesome, nutritious food in schools is very important. As the noble Baroness has already pointed out, the issue of obesity in young people is a problem that has been growing over a number of years. She mentioned the risk of the potential epidemic in diabetes and, indeed, other health problems. I have a certain degree of interest in this because I launched our Government’s fresh fruit scheme for schools—it seems many years ago now—in Wolverhampton. That scheme has worked well and, as the noble Baroness suggested, we have seen major improvements in the quality of school meals. It is important that this is not dissipated with the development of academies as proposed in the Bill.

I realise that the Minister may argue that the approach taken by the noble Baroness is, in a sense, trying to micromanage schools. Underlying our debates so far on the Bill is the clear tension running through between the desirability to give individual schools as much autonomy as possible and, on the other hand, the recognition that there has to be some kind of national underpinning. The debates on special educational needs and, indeed, our recent debate on exclusions are examples of that. The question before us is whether nutrition ought to be one of those matters where some kind of national leadership or guidance is necessary. I am persuaded that it is. The issue raised by the noble Baroness about the health of our young people is so serious that we have to look to schools to do their bit to help, and the approach that she has taken is one that we could support.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, before replying specifically on the amendment, perhaps I may make a clarification arising from an earlier debate. Earlier, in the extremely good debate on PSHE, I said that the independent school standards which apply to academies also contained a requirement to teach personal, social and health education. I am afraid that I was misinformed on that point and I apologise to the Committee. It may be helpful if I provide a little clarification. The independent school standards require the promotion of self-knowledge, self-esteem and confidence; enabling pupils to distinguish right from wrong; and encouraging them to take responsibility for their actions and contribute to the community. All academies do, however, have to have regard to the Secretary of State’s guidance on sex and relationships education. I apologise again for that earlier error. We know from that debate that there are important issues to be picked up on PHSE as part of the broader curriculum review, and I look forward to discussing those with noble Lords in due course.

On the specific amendment to do with school food, and full of my bangers and mash from the Home Room, I realise how important an issue this is for schools. I certainly agree with my noble friend about the importance of good diet and physical health—points also made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, with his work on promoting fruit. We take this seriously. Schools converting to academies will already have been providing healthy, balanced meals that meet the current nutritional regulatory standards. We have no reason to believe that they will stop doing so on conversion or that new schools will not do so either. I am not aware of any evidence that existing academies feed their pupils less well than a maintained school. We would certainly hope and expect in every way that they would continue to feed them as well. They are under a duty to act reasonably in the interests of all their pupils.

We believe that parents will demand the high standard of food that is increasingly being maintained. I pay tribute to the work that has been done in recent years to improve the quality of school food. I have heard from head teachers about the importance of good diet and how it improves behaviour and learning. We expect that parents will demand that that should continue. As an aside, pupils who currently receive free school meals will continue to receive such meals from academies. That will continue to be a requirement of the funding agreement. While I very much agree with my noble friend about the importance of this, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, was correct in surmising that we feel that, in this balance between prescription and trust, this does not need to be set out in the legislation, important though it is. I invite my noble friend to withdraw her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I am glad to have the opportunity to agree with my noble friend Lord Phillips but, as has already been pointed out by my noble friend Lord Hodgson, the CICs—a word I have learnt tonight—are not charities so, from a practical point of view, I am advised that any academy which became a community interest company would have to pay corporation tax, rates tax and small amounts of additional VAT. It would also lose Gift Aid on direct donations. Therefore, there may be practical reasons why it is a less attractive option apart from any point about the asset lock, which I am sure I will also learn about rapidly. Given that my noble friend Lord Hodgson will, I hope, be able to discuss these issues more generally with me, perhaps we can touch on this as well as part of those broader discussions.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, may I make a point to the Minister? I am concerned about the timing of this Bill because the issues raised tonight are extremely complex. We are due to have Report stage within a week and, knowing that the machinery for getting approval for amendments in government does not move as speedily as one would wish, I am concerned that there will not be enough time to give full consideration to these matters. I hope that he will give some consideration to ways in which this House can really have enough time to deal with these matters appropriately.

Academies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Hill of Oareford

Monday 28th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I lend my support to these amendments, which I know at this stage are probing. I am very proud of the achievements of the last Government in relation to the under-fives and I acknowledge the kind remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. However, the fact is that millions of children have had a better start to life thanks to the considerable investment in free nursery education for all three to four year-olds and the creation of so many Sure Start children’s centres. My concern, which is shared by the Early Childhood Forum and others, is that it would appear that the authors of the Bill have given little thought to its effects on three to five year-olds.

The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked a number of very important questions including about the risk of removing academies from the inspection framework for the under-fives, the issues around welfare and safeguarding and the loophole over reregistration. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, put his finger on some of the important workforce challenges that this sector faces, including issues about the lack of experience of many staff working in the sector. That is why it is so important to maintain the integrity of the early years foundation stage. I hope that the Minister can reassure us that his department has thought very carefully about these matters around early years. If not, perhaps he can give us some hope that there will continue to be national safeguards and infrastructure to ensure that attention is given to the points raised by noble Lords. This is an important matter and we will come back to it on Report if we are not satisfied that it will be dealt with effectively.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I understand the points that have been made, particularly those made very forcefully by my noble friend Lady Walmsley about the need to be clear about arrangements for the very youngest in our schools. I accept the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, too, in that regard. I know how much work my noble friends have done in this area, and I hope I can give some reassurance that the key safeguards they seek are already in place.

Amendment 52 would require academies that teach the under-fives to teach them the early years foundation stages of the national curriculum. Although I agree with my noble friends’ intention in this amendment, I would suggest that the amendment is unnecessary because academies are already required, under the Childcare Act 2006, to provide the early years foundation stage. That is spelled out explicitly in their funding agreement. This stage is more than just a curriculum, as it covers much broader outcomes for very young children, including issues such as social skills.

Amendment 53 would require academies to register as early years providers. The Childcare Act 2006 sets out the detailed circumstances in which some academies, as independent schools, are required to register on the early years register. It is not appropriate to require all academies providing nursery or primary education to register as early years settings if they do not necessarily meet the precise, detailed requirements for registration that the Childcare Act lays down. Some will meet those requirements, and will be required to register, but others will not. It is a complex area, but it is covered by the Childcare Act and academies are covered by that.

Amendment 54 is intended to ensure that academy Sure Start centres continue to provide integrated children’s centre services. We would certainly encourage schools with such centres to apply to become academies, as we would want them to continue to provide the excellent services they currently do. The particular circumstances would need to be worked through with the department by any school that had a Sure Start centre when it applied for academy status, but that is certainly something that we would want to discuss with them. It would require decisions to be made on a case-by-case basis, and we would prefer to have that flexibility rather than make particular mention of them in the Bill. I understand my noble friends’ concerns about the future of these important children’s centres in schools, and I recognise the progress made in recent years on that. However, any issues which will inevitably arise in each case will be carefully considered as part of the conversion process. We certainly do not want to lose the progress that has been made.

I hope that that provides some reassurance to noble Lords and that my noble friend may feel able to withdraw her probing amendment.

Academies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord Hill of Oareford

Wednesday 23rd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I was about to make a point that relates to the issue that the noble Baroness has raised. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of this House, which has reported on the Bill, has made it clear that it does not consider it necessary or appropriate for these orders to be made by way of statutory instrument. It made that clear in its first report of this Session, published on 17 June.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am sure that many Ministers have read out the advice of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee when it suits the Government’s case. However, you cannot look at the orders or the suggested regulations in isolation from the whole process, which takes local authorities and formal consultation out of the procedure. Essentially, the Secretary of State is taking to himself considerable powers. That is why there is considerable support round the Committee for ensuring that there is parliamentary scrutiny. I am happy to concede that the amendments before us may not fit the bill, but there is a principle here in relation to the Secretary of State taking to himself certain powers that are held by local authorities. A formal consultation process will not be allowed; it is certainly not in the legislation. Therefore, there has to be some form of additional scrutiny. As that scrutiny will no longer take place at local level, it can take place only in Parliament.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for making the point that these ways of dealing with the issue may not be the right ways forward. I also take the point on the core question of consultation, which we have debated already in Committee, and the question on accountability, which my noble friend Lady Williams raises. We recognised at an earlier stage in Committee that there is a tension when one is seeking to give greater responsibility at a very local level—to teachers or parents, which is a more local level than the local authority level. I recognise the tension between the very local level and what goes on in the centre and the force of the points made by the noble Lord and others. I will reflect and see whether there is any sensible way in which to take those points on board. I have, in passing, touched on the point that an academy would not need to receive funding through both routes.

Amendment 66 would remove exceptions to the prohibition on academies to charge for education provision. Academies would not be able to charge for and, in many cases, run after-school education such as extra-curricular music or drama lessons. I want to reassure the Committee that academies will not be permitted to charge for education provided during the usual timetabled school hours. In respect of charging for education, academies will have to do exactly what any maintained school would be expected to do.

In resisting Amendment 74, I do not mean to imply that insurance is unimportant for academies. Of course it is important and, under existing arrangements, academies are required to have insurance relevant to their responsibilities. However, that kind of matter does not need to be in the Bill. The same applies to Amendment 95, which would ensure that the Secretary of State’s indemnity covered only reasonable expenditure. The Secretary of State is bound by a duty to act reasonably in all matters. He would therefore offer indemnities only in respect of expenditure that was reasonably incurred.

At the beginning of my remarks, I touched on the need for funding arrangements to be fair and to be seen to be fair. That issue was raised by my noble friend in talking about Amendments 15 and 16, on the National Audit Office. Our view, which the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, would share, is that the NAO would not necessarily be the right body. However, as I have said, I will certainly reflect on the underlying principle of making sure that there is transparency and trust in these arrangements.

On Amendment 96, we are not suggesting that the YPLA should be able to spend disproportionately on sixth-form provision in academies. However, there is no need for this vague duty to be in the Bill. Under the national commissioning framework, local authorities are responsible for commissioning sixth-form places in maintained schools. In addition, there is a consultation process in which academies should take part. Ideally, their sixth-form provision will be agreed with the authority. It may be that in some cases such an agreement is not reached. In that case, the YPLA will step in to make a decision. Its regional structure will enable it to reach these decisions on an informed basis. We are not convinced of the need for a general requirement.

Amendment 31, tabled by my noble friend Lord Lucas, would put in the Bill academies’ freedom to innovate. I am sympathetic to his broad case on innovation, but it would seem slightly odd to specify one particular freedom—the freedom to innovate—when the whole purpose of the academy programme is to deliver freedom more generally. We believe that those freedoms are best delivered by an absence of regulation wherever possible. I know that my noble friend agrees that head teachers and staff know best how to run schools. We think that the Bill gives them those freedoms. The academies that I have seen are already full of innovation and they have done that without the specific legislative freedom to innovate.

Amendment 34 would make it an absolute requirement on all academies to work in partnership with other schools. I very much agree with my noble friend Lord Lucas about the excellent examples of partnership that we have already seen in academies. The Government have the strongest possible expectation that that should continue and that every outstanding school that acquires academy freedoms should partner with at least one weaker school. We hope that this will raise performance and support across the system, to mutual benefit. I agree that outstanding schools are in a strong position to do this. We are asking all prospective academies to provide details of their plans to support another school as part of their application process.

My noble friend’s amendment concerns a core theme to which we keep returning: to what extent do you get the best out of people by trusting them and setting high expectations, or should you instead impose an absolute obligation on them? My instinct has been, and remains, that often one gets further by going down the route of trusting people. We believe that there is a potential problem of the unwilling conscript. One can see that there could be perfectly good reasons why in certain circumstances—perhaps for reasons of geography in a remote rural area—an absolute requirement would not be practical. This might also be the case with schools converting that are not outstanding. The case for a requirement for those schools would be even less convincing than the case for a requirement for outstanding schools. Schools that are currently good or satisfactory and that want to become academies may not be in the best place to form a partnership with a failing school.

Amendment 120A would make it impossible for an academy conversion to be taken forward in circumstances where, for example, it was intended that a single academy should replace more than one maintained school as part of sensible local reorganisation proposals. As noble Lords will appreciate, we want the conversion process to be sufficiently flexible to take account of, and allow for, such reorganisation.

I hope that I have picked up on the main points raised and provided some reassurance. I undertake to reflect further on one of the core themes of this set of amendments and urge noble Lords not to press them.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that response. Of course I will be happy to withdraw the amendment. Perhaps I may just say that the noble Lord has offered to reflect on the issue of parliamentary accountability relating to decisions made by the Secretary of State and I am very grateful to him for doing so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I do not envy myself the task of winding up either. This is my first opportunity to listen to a debate in this House about matters relating to religion. I suppose that I should call it my baptism. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, there have been a number of extremely forceful and powerful speeches from every point of the compass. Reconciling them is not straightforward.

Perhaps I may take us back to the Bill, because in this fascinating debate we have gone quite far from it. The Bill is quite modest in its approach to current religious schools and the question of how they might want to think about conversion. Our basic, underlying approach in all these matters is to seek to allow schools that currently have a religious nature to convert on their current footing with the safeguards and requirements that are in place. We are not seeking to change the nature of those schools or in any way to have some kind of Trojan horse, unleashing a new wave of faith schools without some of the restrictions that are in place, to which a number of noble Lords have referred.

Having made that general point, perhaps I may go through the individual issues that have been raised. First, I say in response to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that throughout this process I have been happy to talk to any noble Lords who can face the prospect of a further discussion. I have also been talking at length to churches and am very happy to talk to others. If, in that process, I am able to give further clarification and reassurance to underpin my basic point, which is that on these important issues we are not seeking to change the status quo with this Bill, I shall obviously be very happy to do so.

I now return to the beginning of this debate and the amendment moved by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Lincoln. The Government are committed to ensuring the maintenance of the churches’ relationship with their schools. As the right reverend Prelate knows well, I have met representatives from the churches. I understand the concerns that they bring to this debate, which are from the other end of the spectrum compared with other points that have been made. I have studied the Bill carefully in connection with those concerns and can see nothing in it that could undermine the very important relationship that the churches have with their schools. Again, one of my tasks is to try to build on the reassurance that I hope I have been able to give so far. As the right reverend Prelate knows, I have written to the churches to set out our commitment to work in partnership with them. A copy of that letter is in the Libraries of both Houses.

I confirm that the existing protections and responsibilities in relation to admissions, the curriculum—including the obligation to provide religious education and collective worship—and staffing arrangements will be the same for academies with a religious character as they are for maintained schools with a religious character. I think that that was a specific point made by my noble friend Lady Williams. So far as employment law is concerned, the Bill retains the status quo. All schools will need to comply with employment law.

The religious education syllabus requirements for academies are currently delivered via the funding agreement, rather than through legislation. In future, they will be delivered through academy arrangements—either through the funding agreement or the grant conditions—in accordance with Clause 1.

So far as concerns the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, I agree that it is important that pupils have the right to be excused from, and that parents have the right to withdraw their children from, religious education and worship. It is an important issue of conscience. However, we think that the noble Baroness’s amendment is unnecessary in that academy funding agreements already require academies to comply with the School Standards and Framework Act provisions on pupils being excused and in relation to withdrawal. I place on the record that all future academy arrangements will have that same requirement. Therefore, the important right that the noble Baroness raised will be maintained.

Such protections as are set out in the funding agreement cannot be changed without the agreement of both the academy trust and the Secretary of State. We think that having those requirements in the funding agreement gives the same degree of protection to academy trusts as would be provided by legislation. As many in this Committee know better than me, there is a wide variety of approaches in how the churches govern and manage their schools—it is a complex area. Our view remains that having those provisions within the funding agreement rather than in legislation allows for individual circumstances to be reflected and avoids creating an undertaking that may not fully reflect the position of all religious schools.

On Amendment 35 tabled by my noble friend Lord Lucas, I shall reiterate my opening remark. We are not seeking to use the academies programme as a back-door way of deliberately increasing or changing the balance that we currently have in our education system. We do not think it appropriate to limit the number of faith admissions to 50 per cent when an academy is replacing an existing faith school; we think that the school should be able to carry across its current arrangements. That would not add or change the current situation. I hope that this provides some reassurance to noble Lords that we think it right that for the new academies—the new free schools—the requirement of limiting the number of faith admissions to 50 per cent should be in place. New academies would not be able to go beyond 50 per cent, as that would reduce choice. We think that it is important to have that balance and I am happy to make that clear tonight.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

The Minister is being very helpful, but can he clarify that? Whatever assurance is given, some schools will have pupils of one faith only. That is the reality of the schools to which the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, referred. What will happen in that situation? It is likely that you will end up with students from only one faith or culture going to the school.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

These are difficult and complicated matters and I do not have a simple and straightforward answer for the noble Lord now. I have said that it is an important matter that we can debate further outside this House. Let us do that by all means.

As I was saying, we think it important to ensure that local children of all faiths or none—I take the point that has just been made—have access to new academies. We will ensure that there is the balance that I discussed between community and faith places. All academies will have to have admission arrangements.