Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I support this amendment and I certainly think that the issue of helping children to enjoy wholesome, nutritious food in schools is very important. As the noble Baroness has already pointed out, the issue of obesity in young people is a problem that has been growing over a number of years. She mentioned the risk of the potential epidemic in diabetes and, indeed, other health problems. I have a certain degree of interest in this because I launched our Government’s fresh fruit scheme for schools—it seems many years ago now—in Wolverhampton. That scheme has worked well and, as the noble Baroness suggested, we have seen major improvements in the quality of school meals. It is important that this is not dissipated with the development of academies as proposed in the Bill.
I realise that the Minister may argue that the approach taken by the noble Baroness is, in a sense, trying to micromanage schools. Underlying our debates so far on the Bill is the clear tension running through between the desirability to give individual schools as much autonomy as possible and, on the other hand, the recognition that there has to be some kind of national underpinning. The debates on special educational needs and, indeed, our recent debate on exclusions are examples of that. The question before us is whether nutrition ought to be one of those matters where some kind of national leadership or guidance is necessary. I am persuaded that it is. The issue raised by the noble Baroness about the health of our young people is so serious that we have to look to schools to do their bit to help, and the approach that she has taken is one that we could support.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, before replying specifically on the amendment, perhaps I may make a clarification arising from an earlier debate. Earlier, in the extremely good debate on PSHE, I said that the independent school standards which apply to academies also contained a requirement to teach personal, social and health education. I am afraid that I was misinformed on that point and I apologise to the Committee. It may be helpful if I provide a little clarification. The independent school standards require the promotion of self-knowledge, self-esteem and confidence; enabling pupils to distinguish right from wrong; and encouraging them to take responsibility for their actions and contribute to the community. All academies do, however, have to have regard to the Secretary of State’s guidance on sex and relationships education. I apologise again for that earlier error. We know from that debate that there are important issues to be picked up on PHSE as part of the broader curriculum review, and I look forward to discussing those with noble Lords in due course.
On the specific amendment to do with school food, and full of my bangers and mash from the Home Room, I realise how important an issue this is for schools. I certainly agree with my noble friend about the importance of good diet and physical health—points also made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, with his work on promoting fruit. We take this seriously. Schools converting to academies will already have been providing healthy, balanced meals that meet the current nutritional regulatory standards. We have no reason to believe that they will stop doing so on conversion or that new schools will not do so either. I am not aware of any evidence that existing academies feed their pupils less well than a maintained school. We would certainly hope and expect in every way that they would continue to feed them as well. They are under a duty to act reasonably in the interests of all their pupils.
We believe that parents will demand the high standard of food that is increasingly being maintained. I pay tribute to the work that has been done in recent years to improve the quality of school food. I have heard from head teachers about the importance of good diet and how it improves behaviour and learning. We expect that parents will demand that that should continue. As an aside, pupils who currently receive free school meals will continue to receive such meals from academies. That will continue to be a requirement of the funding agreement. While I very much agree with my noble friend about the importance of this, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, was correct in surmising that we feel that, in this balance between prescription and trust, this does not need to be set out in the legislation, important though it is. I invite my noble friend to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Walmsley
I thank the Minister for his reply and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for his support. I am not aware of any evidence that the existing academies feed their children any worse than other schools. I am not suggesting at all that that happens. I am reassured by the Minister pointing out that schools that convert will adhere to the current nutritional standards. He suggests that there is no reason why they should change, but there is pressure to do so—children like to have chips more than once a week. There have been situations where parents were, perhaps unwisely, pushing pork pies through the bars of the school gates when these nutritional standards first came in. There are pressures to change.
I hope that the future of the School Food Trust, which has been so instrumental in improving the quality of school food and the skills of school cooks, can be assured. I understand that money is tight and the coalition Government will be looking for ways to save money, but I hope that a small sum could be found to make sure that the School Food Trust continues to exist. It has done excellent work in transferring best practice and helping to improve the quality of cooking in schools. It is not just cooking but the whole curriculum involvement in the school agenda in relation to food. Its website is wonderful, with many good examples of creative schools, catering managers and cooks sharing their good ideas with each other. It is the School Food Trust that does that. The Soil Association has also done some extremely good work, and I hope it will be able to continue to do so.
The health and weight of children varies enormously from one school to another. I know that what I am going to say is anecdotal. Recently, a young woman did work experience with me. She attends two secondary schools. One of her courses is in one school and the rest are in another. When we discussed this matter, she said, “It really is odd. At my main school, all the children are slim. At the other school I go to for one of my courses, they are all fat”. I asked her whether she had noticed any difference in the provision of food in the two schools and she said that she had not. But she was aware that in her main school where all the children are slim, years ago boxes of crisps used to be piled high. There were vending machines selling every kind of chocolate and fizzy drink that you could wish for, and chips were on the menu every day. All that has been swept away as a result of the new agenda on high nutritional standards in school food. I asked the girl to send me any evidence that she discovered as regards a difference between the approaches to food in the two schools, but I have not received any such evidence. It would be very nice to be able to say that there is a clear reason for the obesity in one school and not in the other, but I do not have that.
There is a lot of evidence that the quality and nutritional standards of food affect children’s behaviour, learning, social skills, cultural awareness and all the rest of the agenda of which we are all very much in favour. I hope that if we cannot ensure that academies stick to the standards we have the moment, at the very least, we should ensure the future of the School Food Trust in order to disseminate best practice across all schools. I shall then be somewhat reassured. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I agree with everyone who has spoken about the importance of parents being involved in schools’ governing bodies. I completely accept that the Government’s position that there should be at least one parent governor will not be acceptable to the noble Baroness, Lady Howe. However, I start by stressing the words “at least”, because it is easy to elide “at least one” into “one”. That, in part, is my response to the argument made by my noble friend Lady Williams, to which I listened carefully, about the big society and decentralisation. A perfectly proper argument is that a school, which is a very local form of organisation, knows best the kind of governors whom it needs for a properly balanced governing body, and it should be flexible in choosing the right people for that governing body. That is not to say that my assumption is that governing bodies in academies will tend to consist of only one parent governor.
The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, gave an extremely good, common-sense answer to some of the concerns that have been raised: the governing body of any converting maintained school will determine the composition of the governing body of the new academy trust. With a converting academy, those people who know how the governing body has worked with the membership that is currently set out will make the decision. It is likely that they will draw on that experience and take it into account when choosing the membership of the new governing body.
Although it is certainly extremely important to have a broad representation on the governing body of academies, we do not think that it is right to prescribe a 25 per cent minimum. We want academies to be able to choose and to do what they think is right in their particular circumstances.
I say in response to my noble friend Lady Sharp that my understanding is that the arrangements for the election of parent governors will be set out in the articles of association, which will make it clear that the election of parent governors should be by the parents of pupils attending the academy, so there is an elective element. They will be appointed to the governing body of the academy trust.
Amendment 82 would also have the effect of introducing more prescriptive arrangements for the numbers of parent, staff and local authority governors. Again, the Government’s view is that academies should certainly be free to choose a governing body that has representation from staff and from local authorities. We are proposing that in the academy governance model there should be a maximum of two staff governors, but it is true, as has been pointed out, that we propose that academies do not have to have those particular categories unless they choose to.
I know that that will not satisfy all Members of the Committee, but the Government consider this principle of flexibility to be extremely important and we want academies to be autonomous groups. We certainly urge, in the strongest terms, the benefits of having parent governors—I am very clear about their benefit—but we are not keen to go down the prescriptive route. Therefore, I urge the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Walmsley
Before the noble Baroness does so, perhaps I could say a word about my amendment in the group. I was a little surprised to hear the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, backing these amendments, given that it was the Labour Government who reduced the number of parent governors to one, to be appointed by the proprietor in the old-style academies. The excuse of the noble Lord for that change of heart appears to be his claim that these schools will be set up without consultation. Perhaps the noble Lord was not in the Chamber last week when the Minister accepted that a high degree of consultation with all appropriate groups was extremely desirable and that he would come back to us on Report with some suggestion about how he would ensure that that best practice is put in place. We welcomed that.
The Minister suggested that under the arrangements for the new academies a single parent governor, as the minimum, would be elected. That is different from the situation that applied with the academies as set up by the Labour Government. Indeed, it is a step in the right direction, but I suggest to my noble friend that it is not enough. He suggests that, on the basis of localism, the school should decide how many parent governors to have and whether it should have two staff members. I accept that, as he says, it is suggested that they should have two staff members, but they are not obliged to have them as a minimum. I also accept that the school is probably the most localist level one can get, but the proprietor may not be local; the proprietor may be a chain and failing schools will still have to have a proprietor. I therefore suggest to my noble friend that, if the proprietor is not local, it is not a piece of local decision-making if he decides that he does not wish to have two members of staff on the board of governors or more than one elected parent governor.
I remain of the view that it is good for the school, good for the education of the children and good for the link between the school and its community to have the kind of situation that I have suggested in my amendment. It is also helpful to the school in fulfilling its duty in relation to community cohesion. If we put a duty on schools, it is important that we give them the levers to fulfil it and I think that this is one of them.
The Lord Bishop of Exeter
My Lords, I make a brief intervention on the group of amendments concerned with reversion to maintained status. What I am looking for is clarification on the consequences, intended or unintended, of any of these amendments in the case of an academy that had formerly been a church school or a school of particular religious character. Is there a clear intention here that such academies should revert to that form of status, and if so, to what extent in any of these amendments is that intention secured? Moreover, in the provisions that require consultation, in the case of church schools should there not be explicit consultation with diocesan boards of education or their equivalents, for whom such a reversion would have resource implications?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I start by thanking my noble friend Lady Sharp. She reminded us, in her clear exposition of the history behind the answer to the question put by the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, about the period of seven years and where it came from. The previous Government followed it and we are doing the same.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin
In terms of the noble Lord’s approach going forward, I ask what evidence has been used to carry on with that timeframe. There is nothing in the impact assessment about timeframes and I would be interested to know what the evidence is.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My noble friend Lord Wallace says that the evidence is as good as the evidence the previous Government had. The answer to the question is that, over time, the period has shown itself to demonstrate stability for parents and children because it gives them some certainty. However, in terms of the impact assessment, I can give no better answer than the previous Government themselves had.
We think that reducing the period of notice required for termination would create greater uncertainty. We are not aware of evidence that suggests that a shorter notice period would provide a better solution. However—and this comes back to earlier discussions about the difference between the funding agreement and the grant arrangements—there may well be a case where a new school is created for providing a shorter period for the school to prove itself. That is the reason behind the proposed new grant arrangements. In such a case there would be greater flexibility to allow for more regular review of performance, and then once the school had established itself as what is called a free school, it would be possible, if both parties agree, to move on to the more conventional contractual funding agreement.
Furthermore, it is right that the academy itself is sure of this same stability to make long-term plans and that the Secretary of State, when committing to funding, is confident of the proprietors’ commitment to the academies programme. The amendments would add unfair uncertainty to the academies programme. On the question put by my noble friend Lord Phillips through Amendment 92, I am advised that it is already the case, as he says. The Bill gives no prescription about when the notice to terminate may be given.
Amendment 108 seeks to allow the governing body of any school which has applied for an academy order to withdraw the application at any time up to one week before the conversion date. Until the academy arrangements, including the funding agreement, have been signed by both the academy trust and the Secretary of State, the academy trust is free to withdraw its application for an academy order, even if the order has been made in respect of that school, and in theory that could be right up until just before conversion. An order merely permits the school to enter into an agreement with the Secretary of State; it does not require it. The decision by a school to enter into academy arrangements with the Secretary of State should be taken after due consideration. The academy trust will want to be confident of its decision when it signs the funding agreement or grant letter but, as I say, in theory that could be up until the point before conversion.
The Lord Bishop of Exeter
I return to my question in the light of what the Minister has just said. I understood him to say that if a school of a particular religious character becomes an academy and then seeks to revert to maintained status, nothing within the process guarantees that that particular character will be continued and protected.
Lord Hill of Oareford
On the specific point the right reverend Prelate raised in the question he asked earlier, I can tell him that we shall come later to amendments in regard to religious schools and land issues. Perhaps I may write to him to clarify the precise point.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin
I thank the Minister for his remarks and for putting on record some very helpful information about moving in and out of academy status.
With regard to the seven-year timeframe, given the debates that we have had so far, the main difference between having an academy agreement and having a direct grant payment is the term. I am trying to understand what the Government see as so important about the seven years. Regarding the term of the grant letter, we were advised that the main difference there was the variation of the term. This is an important issue. If the coalition Government had simply carried on everything that we did when we were in government, we would be looking at a very different education Bill now—we would be looking at PSHE and guarantees around one-to-one tuition.
This is about understanding what the Government see as an appropriate term. If it is a new, experimental school that is being funded through a grant letter, then how long is enough—one month, two, three? Does it have to be a year or five years? At what point does it become a stable, going entity? I would be interested to know that, along with what evidence the Government are going to use. If they do not have evidence now, and I understand that there is an experiment unfolding around the free schools, it would be good to understand what criteria are going to be used to look at how well those new funding grants and the terms around them are performing.
I am grateful to the Minister for putting on record those helpful remarks about the transition to and from academy status, and I will read Hansard to understand the implications fully. For now, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Lord Bishop of Exeter
My Lords, I speak to Amendment 112. Like the noble Baroness, I have some concerns about the way in which the power to which the amendment refers might be exercised—although, in my case, particularly with regard to church schools, which will come as no surprise. The principle issue relates to the power to intervene should schools standards not be up to scratch. Noble Lords will be aware that such challenge and intervention currently lies with local education authorities for church as for community schools. In our diocesan boards of education and our sister Roman Catholic dioceses and schools commissions, we have long been accustomed to work with them to address weaknesses.
We need to find ways in which to enable diocesan boards of education to be fully involved in identifying weakness and working with governing bodies in supporting improvements at an early stage prior to the exercise of the Secretary of State’s draconian powers as set out in the measure. With or without such a provision in the Bill, there is a further danger in the clause as it stands in that the powers that it confers could be used in respect of a school where standards were unsatisfactory to radically change the character of a school. By turning over responsibility for a school to other providers, the existing trustees could be bought out, the original intentions of a school of religious character overruled and a school of a particular character brought to an end.
The Secretary of State is, I believe, of the view that this would not be compatible with the provisions of the European Convention on Human Rights, but we are not at all sure about that since, as the Bill stands, it would appear that a school could be taken away from the church without the relevant church body—in our case, the diocesan boards of education—having had any opportunity, along with the governing body, or power to challenge or intervene at an earlier stage. We hope that some of these issues can be further explored before the matter returns to the House.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, this group of amendments deals with academy orders which enable the conversion of a maintained school into an academy. Amendments 105, 115 and 123 seek to place in regulations the process of applying for an academy order and to require the publishing of the criteria that the Secretary of State will take into account when approving academy order applications and entering into academy arrangements. As your Lordships might expect by now, we are unconvinced that it is necessary to prescribe in regulations the application process for an academy order, as this is an entirely administrative process. The Government have made it clear that they will apply a rigorous fit-and-proper-person test in approving any sponsors of an academy or promoter of a free school.
In response to one question raised by my noble friend Lady Sharp, I can confirm that the Secretary of State will publish on the department’s website criteria for deciding applications from schools which are not outstanding. I agree that it is important that people know where they stand. We will make sure that those are available when we have done some more work on that.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford
Can the Minister clarify whether that means that every school that is outstanding which applies will automatically get an academy order, unless it has a deficit of over £100,000?
Lord Hill of Oareford
No, my Lords; I was coming to that. There are some exceptional circumstances where that would not necessarily happen. There may, for instance, be cases where further information or action is required, including where a school is subject to existing reorganisation proposals—such as those referred to in Amendment 123—and where, as my noble friend has said, the school has a deficit or its performance has changed significantly. The Secretary of State has that power and would want to review each case on its merits. There will need to be flexibility in the Secretary of State’s consideration of these factors to make sure that he can make the most appropriate decision in each individual case. Information on those exceptional circumstances is, I believe, available on the department’s website.
In a similar vein, Amendment 126 would require the Secretary of State to make an order through secondary legislation specifying the mandatory contents of an academy order. While each order will inevitably contain certain standard elements, each will be different and specific to each school depending on the circumstances of each case. I think that we touched on this briefly last week. The parliamentary Delegated Powers Committee report on this Bill, dated 17 June, concluded that it would not be necessary for Parliament to scrutinise academy orders, while the expectation is that the academy orders will be brief. Therefore, it is not our view that we need to set out in an order what those orders will contain.
Amendment 118 seeks to require the Secretary of State to seek the advice of the schools adjudicator before agreeing the conversion of a school from maintained to academy status. The local authority normally would decide proposals for changes to existing maintained school provision, including closures, alterations and new schools. Where the local authority itself is the proposer of a new school, the schools adjudicator may be called upon to decide the competition. The decision on academies has, however, always been the Secretary of State’s. Given that the process for converting to academy status will not result in a net change in provision available to parents and pupils in the area, we do not believe that involving the schools adjudicator would be necessary. It might, indeed, introduce another unnecessary layer of bureaucracy.
On the point raised by my noble friend Lady Sharp on Amendment 187, the Secretary of State does not intend to delegate to the Young People’s Learning Agency any decisions about, or the making of, academy orders. I can confirm that he has no intention of delegating this function, which goes hand in hand with the decision to enter into academy arrangements themselves and which he cannot delegate to the YPLA. Academy orders are made in respect of maintained schools; therefore it is not appropriate to delegate it to the YPLA, which is responsible for certain roles—funding, challenging and supporting academies—once they are up and running, but not before.
Finally, Amendment 112 would remove the power of the Secretary of State to make an academy order for a school that is eligible for intervention. Generally speaking, schools are eligible for intervention where standards are too low or there are concerns about performance standards. It is crucial that schools that are failing their pupils can be given the opportunity to convert to academy status and to do so quickly to improve their pupils’ chances. There is evidence that schools obtaining academy status can make improvements to raise standards for all their pupils. It is right to make sure that those schools have that opportunity, too. Removing that option would not be in the best interests of pupils. I hope this has provided some more information and factual answers on several of the points that have been raised. With that, I hope that the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin
My Lords, given that the hour is so late and the complexity and importance of the information that the Minister has just shared with us, I will want to read Hansard and think about it. One of my concerns relates slightly to the FOI amendment that is coming later. I am concerned about transparency. The coalition Government have said time and again that there is a strong commitment to transparency. We are dependent on a host of information being posted on the department’s website but, given the number of websites being culled at the moment, I am slightly anxious about it. So I want to think about what the Minister has said this evening. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Lord Bishop of Exeter
My Lords, I have been asked to speak to Amendments 171 to 174 in the name of my noble and right reverend friend the Bishop of Lincoln, who cannot be in his place today due to commitments in his diocese—although I dare say that his commitments will be over rather sooner than yours and mine.
I should like to speak to these amendments as a group because they relate to complications that could arise from the Secretary of State’s powers to compulsorily purchase the site of an existing church school as part of the academy formation process. The amendments are technical and are being put forward because of the extraordinary complications in respect of the ownership provisions of many voluntary schools sites—again, predominantly those held in trust by Church of England bodies.
As I am sure all noble Lords will know, the School Sites Acts of Queen Victoria are still in force and contain a technicality called a “reverter”. It is our view that reverters will be likely to apply to at least some sites dealt with under the provisions of this Bill and that in consequence the rights of the heirs of original donors will come into force if and when the school site is purchased by the state. Thus, the closure of a school in order for it to reopen as an academy may trigger reverter conditions, enabling the trustees to reclaim the land. Likewise, the original donation of the land in trust probably had conditions attached such as its use for church schooling only. In this respect, we do not think that the Government have taken into account the effects of the Schools Sites Act 1841 and of the Reverter of Sites Act 1987. Many of our school sites can be regarded as being part of the church’s historical assets and every effort needs to be made through discussion with the diocese and trustees to ensure that the transition is both smooth and a legitimate handing on of the asset in trust.
These are therefore probing amendments through which I hope to draw out the Minister to clarify the Government’s thinking on this arcane subject. They seek to protect trustees and heirs from the complications that might ensue and to protect the Government from a nasty and expensive legal trap if the issue is not clarified and addressed now.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, the amendments in this group deal with the transfer of school property to the successor academy. Amendment 160 deals with the transfer of property other than land. In response to the question from my noble friend Lady Sharp, that means things such as desks, computers and so on. The amendment would impose a requirement to consult the local authority, and possibly others, before the property may be transferred. In the case of converting academies, the clear intention is that there should be a smooth transfer between the existing school and the academy, as part of which the school would need to be able to continue to use its property, including things such as desks, computers and so on—property other than land. I am conscious that we have discussed the question of consultation in other contexts and I have said to the Committee that I will reflect further and come back to it. I am aware that views on consultation differ, but I will bear in mind my noble friend’s points as part of my reflection.
The amendments spoken to by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter are, as he says, extremely technical and complex, particularly as they concern the Reverter of Sites Act. Perhaps it would be acceptable to him if, for the convenience of the Committee, I were to write to him at length on those points and place the letter carefully in the Library. I understand the significance of these issues to the church and do not want to rush them, get them wrong or end up, as he says, with an expensive lawsuit. I am advised that we have some answers to the points. Perhaps I may write to the right reverend Prelate and circulate the letter widely. When he receives that letter, if there are specific circumstances that the church authorities have in mind and about which they are still concerned, I would be happy to consider the matter further if he or others contact me. If he and the rest of the Committee agree to that proposal, perhaps he will refrain from pressing his amendments and my noble friend Baroness Sharp will withdraw hers.
The Lord Bishop of Exeter
I thank the Minister for those assurances and will not press the amendments this evening.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 160B in this group. The two amendments cover important and fundamental issues that it is probably too late to discuss in detail: however, they are still fundamental and important. I do not claim that these are perfectly honed amendments that could go into legislation: they are an attempt to set down principles and issues that are important. They probably indicate my lack of detailed knowledge of education legislation. Nevertheless, the two issues are clear, and these are probing and speculative amendments about them.
The first amendment refers to the powers and duties of local authorities in relation to the oversight and monitoring of academies and clearly suggests a role for them in intervention in, and challenge of, underperforming academies. It does not propose any change to the basic powers and freedoms of academies. It suggests that, over a period, the role of supervision and oversight of academies should transfer from a national body—from the Young People’s Learning Agency or whatever other national body the Government of the time decide to use—to local authorities.
If there are a few hundred academies, having this role in the hands of a national body will be feasible and practical and will probably work. However, the more academies there are, the more the creation of a large national bureaucracy to carry out this work will become unrealistic and impractical. If there are 5,000 or 6,000 academies, then it will not seem sensible for one national body to be responsible for oversight, and it certainly will not fit into the Government’s mantra of localism. One might say that it is an old-fashioned state socialist way of doing things, but I do not want to get under the skin of the Labour Party too much, so I say that very gently.
My proposal also fits in with the remaining residual local authority roles in relation to pupils who are, or have been, attending academies. In this Committee we have been discussing roles relating to transport, special needs, excluded pupils and so on. There is clearly a residual local authority role in relation to academies or in relation to pupils attending academies, and it would be sensible if there were not two different bureaucracies dealing with the same schools.
Clearly, we are talking about light-touch oversight. As I said, I am not talking about in any way changing the status or freedoms of academies. However, it seems to me that if oversight is put into the hands of bodies which are closer to the academies, are more local and are more likely to have close relations with them for all sorts of reasons, they will have the knowledge and close links that will make it much easier for them to intervene effectively if and when things go wrong in a school. If and when that happens in an academy, there will have to be outside intervention—we all understand and accept that—but how much easier it will be if this is done by people who already have close working relationships and links with those schools rather than by people charging down perhaps several hundreds miles from Whitehall. Alternatively, the YPLA, or whatever other agency is involved, might have to set up local or regional branches to do this work. There will then be a risk that local authorities will, in a sense, be duplicated by the regional and local branches of the national agency. As I understand it, that is exactly what this Government are trying to avoid. Certainly they seem to be taking an axe to quite a lot of the existing regional bureaucracies—something that I shall not complain about too much—but it seems to me that setting up new ones would be the wrong direction in which to go.
I am not suggesting that the detailed mechanisms in Amendment 160A are the right ones. I am not necessarily arguing for them; I am putting them on the table for a discussion about the way in which it would be sensible to move as more and more academies are created over the next few years, if that is indeed what happens.
Amendment 160B is rather different. It would put local authorities in the driving seat in the process of converting existing schools into academies. This is a probing amendment to ask the Government some fundamental questions. First, what are their ultimate objectives in converting schools into academies? What is their strategy? What do they think the position will be in five or 10 years’ time? Do they expect that ultimately all or most schools will convert to academies—perhaps all schools except those in need of intervention in terms of special or other measures? Is that their ambition?
Several times, the Minister said that the Government want to give all schools the opportunity to apply to be academies. That implies that they want all schools to become academies eventually. If that is their position, we are moving towards a situation in which the local management of schools, which took place in 1988 and subsequently, will be taken to its more logical conclusion and all schools will be given a substantial degree of independence. Any relationship that they have with the local authority will be turned upside down and schools will decide whether to pay for local authority services, rather than having some services provided automatically.
The noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley, said in a powerful speech at Second Reading that this is the latest in a series of initiatives to make a special category of schools. She referred to technology colleges, grant maintained schools and so on. So far, all those initiatives have resulted in a minority of schools getting special status. Is this the same thing again: that a minority of schools will become academies and that all the rest will continue as usual? Do the Government think that that will happen, after a period of years, or do they envisage every school becoming an academy? I do not think that the Government have made that clear at all and I do not know whether they have a clear idea. I suspect that Michael Gove has a clear idea about it, but I am not sure whether the Government collectively have. That is a fundamental question and it is one reason for tabling this amendment.
The Government are cutting local authorities out of the process of the creation of academies. That will result in a lot of resistance from local authorities, which will attempt to persuade many schools not to become academies. The same will apply to diocesan authorities. The alternative is to put local authorities in the driving seat, letting them supervise, organise and attempt to get some order and sense into the conversion process in their areas.
In Committee, we have talked a little about the transitional period during which an authority might have half of its schools as academies and the other half which it will still have to look after. Perhaps the latter will eventually be a minority, a rump of schools, which inevitably will be the less successful schools, or perhaps the mediocre, satisfactory schools. It is not clear whether the process will work in an efficient and economical way. During this transitional period, it will cost local authorities more money as they will have to provide all the services, but for fewer schools. I believe that putting local authorities in charge of the process will mean that they will be able to manage the whole thing more efficiently and economically. If you give local authorities a job, they will become enthusiastic about it; they will do it; and I believe that you will end up with more academies in a more sensible, organised way than by doing this nationally and trying to lock local authorities out of the process, as that will result in tensions, difficulties, inefficiencies and extra costs.
The wording of these amendments is not necessarily the answer, but these fundamental issues have to be faced, even at this time of night. I believe that the Government are missing a huge opportunity if they do not use local authorities more fundamentally in their ambitious programme to convert schools into academies. I beg to move.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Greaves. I listened to his comments with care and he made some extremely interesting points about oversight. I agree that one has to keep that under review as the situation develops. It goes to the heart of the question about the future role of local authorities, which we have touched on previously in Committee. I recognise that the coalition Government have not yet come up with a complete or satisfactory answer on what it should be, other than saying that we are clear that local authorities should have a strong strategic role.
The issue of it being a revolving picture is related fundamentally to my noble friend’s Amendment 160B. Perhaps I may answer his question directly by reference to Baldrick in “Blackadder”: I do not have a cunning plan around how many schools are likely to convert. I know that my noble friend may find that hard to believe, but it is true that our approach to the legislation is to say to schools that they have the opportunity: it is a choice rather than a compulsion. We do not have a clear view of the landscape in five years’ time because the shape of that landscape will be determined by the response to this permissive legislation.
We see this as being an opportunity that we want to give to schools rather than requiring them, or a local authority acting on their behalf, to convert or plan for conversion. Linked with that is the desire to be able to seek academy status quickly. It may indeed be that over time local authorities will develop a new role more akin to commissioning. I think that was the thought behind my noble friend’s amendment and the 2005 White Paper laid out thoughts on how the role of local authorities might develop. As the department and the Government more generally reflect on the proper role of local authorities and how to work with them—
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin
I have been listening carefully to the Minister. If the Government do not have a vision for the role of local authorities going forward, would it not be a better idea to take this legislation at a more reflective pace so that people can engage with the coalition Government more proactively and in a considered way? Why are we rushing this? If the noble Lord does not have a picture or an answer, why are we here at 11 pm instead of having more time to think more carefully about the matter and have a proper debate? I do not understand what the rush is.
Lord Hill of Oareford
This relates to a debate I had earlier with the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, who asked: why the rush? Our answer to that question is that we know there are schools which appear to be keen to convert and to take advantage of academy freedoms. Our instinct is that, given that information and given the choice between going slow and cracking on with it, and providing answers about the strategic role of local authorities going forward, as I fully accept we must, we incline to the latter view.
I fully recognise the experience of my noble friend Lord Greaves in the proper role of local authorities. I hope that he will contribute to our deliberations on these matters. He said that these amendments are meant to illustrate a point rather than being particularly prescriptive in their intent. I have listened to what he said and will continue to reflect on it. I hope that in the light of that he may feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I deeply regret having mentioned Baldrick. I am learning as I go and I shall attempt to be more concise in future.
I shall attempt to respond to some of the broad points that have been made and the specific concerns that have been raised. I am conscious of the expertise that resides with both my noble friends, so I think that the sensible way forward, if they are prepared to spend the time, is for me and officials to sit down with them and go through these points in more detail, taking advantage of their knowledge and trying to address some of the points that have been raised.
Perhaps I may respond in general terms to the main thrust of the points made around Amendment 167, which would remove the provision for academy trusts to be exempt charities. The effect of that, as my noble friend made clear, would be that they would have to continue, as now, to register individually with, and be regulated by, the Charity Commission. As we discussed earlier, hundreds of maintained schools may apply to become academies during the next few years and, as charities, they would, if not exempted under subsection (4), all have to be regulated by the Charity Commission. That would clearly be a huge additional burden. I accept the point made by my noble friend Lord Phillips that whoever does it will have to deal with it, but I believe that the Charity Commission accepts that the burden of taking on that regulatory role would be considerable.
A range of educational bodies are exempt charities. Further education colleges and higher education colleges are exempt charities and not regulated by the Charity Commission. The governing bodies of foundation and voluntary schools are shortly, following discussion and agreement between the Charity Commission and the department, to become exempt charities as well. They will cease to be regulated by the Charity Commission and will be regulated by the department instead. We therefore thought that academies could be treated consistently with these other schools and educational bodies and be made exempt in the same way.
I know well that the Charity Commission is committed to ensuring that proper public accountability for academies is maintained. It is our intention that funding agreements or grant arrangements should place an obligation on academy trusts to publish their governing documents, reports, accounts and the names of trustees. I hope that that offers the noble Lord at least some reassurance that there would not be an unacceptable reduction in accountability and transparency.
The Minister for the Cabinet Office has agreed in principle that the YPLA should be appointed as the principal regulator for academies. That is the government body with day-to-day responsibility for academies. Once opened, it could be the appropriate body to carry out that role. I am told in response to a point raised in the debate that all principal regulators appointed under the 2006 Act have been appointed under secondary legislation.
I hope that my answers have provided at least some factual information. However, having listened to the debate, I repeat my invitation to my noble friends Lord Phillips and Lord Hodgson to spare the time to sit down with me and discuss these matters at greater length. I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, my noble friend the Minister cannot be fairer than that. I am tempted to make some comments of my own on some of his, but that would be wicked, cruel and unnecessary. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I am glad to have the opportunity to agree with my noble friend Lord Phillips but, as has already been pointed out by my noble friend Lord Hodgson, the CICs—a word I have learnt tonight—are not charities so, from a practical point of view, I am advised that any academy which became a community interest company would have to pay corporation tax, rates tax and small amounts of additional VAT. It would also lose Gift Aid on direct donations. Therefore, there may be practical reasons why it is a less attractive option apart from any point about the asset lock, which I am sure I will also learn about rapidly. Given that my noble friend Lord Hodgson will, I hope, be able to discuss these issues more generally with me, perhaps we can touch on this as well as part of those broader discussions.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, may I make a point to the Minister? I am concerned about the timing of this Bill because the issues raised tonight are extremely complex. We are due to have Report stage within a week and, knowing that the machinery for getting approval for amendments in government does not move as speedily as one would wish, I am concerned that there will not be enough time to give full consideration to these matters. I hope that he will give some consideration to ways in which this House can really have enough time to deal with these matters appropriately.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, the coalition agreement pledges to review the Freedom of Information Act with a view to increasing its scope. This, the first legislative act of the coalition, seeks to reduce its scope. It should not.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, in Amendment 168 my noble friend proposes inserting a new clause that would amend the Freedom of Information Act 2000 to add academy proprietors to the list of public bodies covered by that Act. Having thought about this, and having come newly into the department, I think that he makes a very good point in his new clause. I can see no reason in principle why academy proprietors, in relation to their function of running academies under academy arrangements, should not be subject to the Freedom of Information Act in the same way as all other state-funded schools are.
I am also happy to confirm that this Government, like the last one, accept that academies are public authorities for the purposes of the Act. In principle, then, I am completely with my noble friend on the merits of his amendment. It also helps us to address some of the broader debate that we have had about consultation, where I accept the points that have been made from around the Committee. Making sure that information is available and that there is as much transparency as possible is part of the process of helping to overcome suspicion, so it will help in that respect as well. I undertake to consider the issue further. If my noble friend would be happy enough to withdraw his amendment, I will come back to the issue on Report.
Lord Hill of Oareford
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin
My Lords, there are over 200,000 more support staff in our schools thanks to the investment put into school improvement under the previous Government. More than 123,000 of these staff are classroom teaching assistants, who support teachers in identifying and helping children who need extra support.
The previous Government established the School Support Staff Negotiating Body to ensure fair pay and conditions for hundreds of thousands of people whose jobs on the front line help to give every child the best start in life. This was part of a partnership that we built between government, employers, unions and staff, known as the Social Partnership.
A forum for real dialogue between government, the trade unions and school staff is something which I consider to be extremely important and which I am sure all of us in this Chamber can look back on with pride. Whatever else the coalition Government may disagree with us about, I hope that—in going forward with the previous Government’s approach—they do not forget that it is by working with, and not against, staff that you can drive change and raise standards in our schools. I hope that we can hear some very constructive language and views from the government Benches.
It is true that under the previous Government academies were not covered by the national pay and conditions structures, although they were invited to be involved in the school support staff negotiation process. As I understand it, the amendments in this group are not intended to represent reneging on that position. If academies are to become the norm for secondary schools in this country—if the majority of schools adopt academy status, as I understand is the Government’s view—these amendments are looking for an understanding that, rather than being a tool for driving improvement in a number of areas, it is right and proper that there should be a framework for collective bargaining, particularly for these important staff members who have made such a difference in our schools.
Giving a few schools in challenging areas the freedom to vary the terms and conditions is one thing, as it may help them to break down entrenched disadvantage and to attract new staff to schools where morale may have been low and staff turnover very high. However, by giving such freedoms first to the strongest schools may undermine the aims of the academy scheme and, therefore, the rationale for the approach to the rights of workers in the sector to collective bargaining. The rationale simply will not stand up. I hope that the Minister can respond with supportive language to these ideas. I look forward to hearing his views.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I always try to be as helpful to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, as I can. I certainly echo what she and my noble friend said about the importance of support staff and the contribution that they make. On this occasion, I fear that I shall not be able to be as supportive as she perhaps would like and as my noble friend might like in substantive terms.
Our view is that the freedom over staff pay and conditions, which has been extended to academies in relation to teaching staff, is an important freedom and it is one of the reasons why schools have wanted academy status. Our view is that if it is good enough for teachers, it is good enough for support staff. I suspect, although I do not know because it was before my time, that at the beginning, when academies were given greater discretion over pay, there may well have been concerns that it would lead to staff at academy schools in some way being done down because they were not part of national agreements. Over time, those fears have not been realised.
There is no reason to believe why the same should not happen as regards school support staff. Academies could use their greater freedom to treat them well and perhaps to treat them better. We believe that those freedoms have been vital to academies’ success. They allow them to make changes to the school, to drive up standards and to employ the best staff. It is one of the core freedoms. On this occasion, I certainly feel that academies ought to be able to have those freedoms in relation to school support staff.
Lord Hill of Oareford
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I will endeavour to be as brief as possible. This amendment would require the Secretary of State to produce a report every 12 months on the impact of the number of academies established in the past year on the teaching workforce. The purpose of that is twofold: first, to produce some mechanism to monitor the impact of these changes on the workforce; and, secondly, to flag up the concern that inadvertently these changes might lead to the creaming off of the best teachers into the best schools with the best pupils, with the consequence that the poorest pupils in the worst schools would have the least good teachers. I know that that is not the Government’s intention, but it is much better to consider such possibilities now rather than just walking down the road and running into them later.
As regards the reports, will the Minister consider some way of monitoring the impact of academies on the general teaching workforce? Perhaps there is already enough to measure what is happening on the ground. Can he comment on that, or perhaps write to me? I would also be grateful to hear from the Minister what action he can imagine if what I have described were to happen. He has already referred to what can be done—for instance, Teach First is focused on the most vulnerable children in the most difficult areas. I think that City Challenge helps in this area, too. What other mechanisms might be put in place to redress the possibility early on before the rot begins to set in?
I worry about stratification. I have already mentioned the consequences of a mixed market in the Prison Service, in child care and in independent social work practices. Perhaps I may remind your Lordships of the guardians ad litem, who were crack social workers appointed by the courts to represent the voice of children in public law in the courts. They present rather a good case in point for the rationale for having academies, because those social workers were frustrated by working in local authorities. By working for the courts, they were independent and pretty much decided how much time they wanted to dedicate to each child. The posts attracted many of the best social workers, paid less for their experience and gaining little career progression. At least a couple of your Lordships had spouses working in this area. Unfortunately, 12 years ago the Government decided that they wanted firmer control over these practitioners and as a consequence many of them simply left social work.
It is easy to be critical when one is not responsible for such a change, but I remember attending a meeting where the guardians were gathered. It was so disappointing to see such a great deal of expertise leaving the profession. Now we have the Child and Family Court Advice and Support Service, which amalgamates the former guardians ad litem and the former court reporting officers. There again we see a problem, in as much as CAFCASS requires officers who have at least three years’ experience in social work. That means that frontline social workers are pulled off the front line into CAFCASS and are taken away from where they are needed most.
My point is that that was all done with the best of intentions, but the consequences were not thought through at the time. I hope that the Minister will reflect on that. I would appreciate a sense that the Government have considered the issues, that they have ways of monitoring the impact and that there are means of taking action if that becomes a problem in future. I beg to move.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I hope that I can provide some reassurance on the concerns raised by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, which he has made consistently throughout Committee. The Department for Education publishes comprehensive statistics each year on the school workforce—I give way to my noble friend.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
I was expecting the number of my amendment to be called. I apologise; I will be very brief. First, as it is the last amendment in this long Committee, I should like to say a word of tribute to the Minister, Lord Hill of Oareford, because after a baptism of fire—perhaps a baptism by exhaustion is a more favourable phrase—he deserves great credit for having sat through the whole thing and been so helpful in his responses.
My amendment is similar in many ways to, but not the same as, that of the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. The noble Earl is particularly concerned about the issue of monitoring and of the effect on the teaching workforce. I have sympathy with him, because we know that there has been recruiting of head teachers to academies over and above the normal recruiting of head teachers. There is a real worry about weakening the quality of the teaching force in maintained schools. However, my reasons are rather different. I will mention them in a couple of sentences. They are all about accountability.
My great concern about the Bill is that there is very little structure of accountability in it. Once local authorities have gone and once the consultation has gone, we begin to look at the frightening prospect expressed by my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts when he talked about the possibility that the powers rested with the Secretary of State and his department, almost unchallenged all the way down to the schools themselves. That is why I propose a report to Parliament to bring one body of accountability back into the picture. There have been very few countries—the Soviet Union was one exception, and Germany under the Nazis was another—where there was no accountability whatever between schools and central Government. That continues to trouble me. Although I do not pretend that my amendment will by itself meet the need, there is a serious need for greater accountability. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Hill, has accepted that. We look forward to what he has to say at Report.
Lord Hill of Oareford
Forgive me for having pre-empted my noble friend Lady Williams; I will make a second stab at it. Before I do so, I thank everyone who is still here at this late hour and everyone has been here throughout this Committee. My noble friend pointed out that it has been something of a baptism of fire, but noble Lords’ comments have been unfailing helpful, courteous and stimulating, and I am extremely grateful.
I understand the desire of the noble Earl and my noble friend Lady Williams for information. The department publishes comprehensive statistics each year on the school workforce in England, which may well provide him with some of the information that he is interested in on teachers. Those data are published provisionally in April and the final data are published in September. They contain information about the number of teachers and other school staff in academies compared with previous years. The noble Earl would be able to see that information, and it may provide him with some of the facts and figures that he wants.
In relation to his fears about what might happen, from a practical point of view, it is the case that the first wave of new academies will all be outstanding schools, so it may well be the case that the impact on staff will be less pronounced than was the case with some earlier academies where there was a bigger turn-around job. Common sense says that there will be more continuity in a school converting from maintained to academy status. I agree with the noble Earl’s underlying point. Our job overall is to attract more good teachers into all schools. I do not think that one should accept the premise that there is a given number of good teachers and therefore be afraid that that fixed number of good teachers will just be parcelled up throughout the system. I think all noble Lords would agree that we need to do all we can to increase the supply of good teachers. We will aim to do that by working to raise the esteem of the profession, which is clearly vital, strengthening the ability of schools to improve discipline, removing some of the bureaucracy that we have discussed in this Committee to enable teachers to get on with teaching, and extending programmes such as Teach First and Future Leaders. I hope that provides some reassurance to the noble Earl.
However, we are not convinced that if we provide more of this kind of information, an annual report by the Secretary of State is necessarily needed to address the issues of substance. We are not certain that it needs to be in legislation. So far as the annual report and the points made by my noble friend Lady Williams are concerned, I accept that we need to have information out there on which people can make decisions. In part, I hope that will be helped by our earlier discussion about freedom of information, which will be part of making more information about academies available. As part of my commitment to think about how one gets more information out in general, we need to look at how parents can get information about schools more readily.
The academies programme will continue to be evaluated, and the results will be published. The National Audit Office and the Education Select Committee are likely to have a continuing role in monitoring the provision of education at academies. With that panoply of different forms of scrutiny, our view is that a formal report to Parliament would not be necessary. That said, I accept the underlying force of the points made by my noble friend and the noble Earl. I hope that will provide some reassurance and I urge the noble Earl to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Hill of Oareford