Licensing Act 2003 (Diamond Jubilee Licensing Hours) Order 2012

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 14th February 2012 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I support the order. To do otherwise would amount to something like bah humbug. However, I have a couple of questions for the Minister.

First, why did the consultation ask for comments on the basis that the relaxation would cover only two nights? As the Minister explained, the relaxation period could be up to four days. It struck me as a little nannyish not to include Sunday and Monday, as if the state were telling people that they had better be fit for work on Tuesday.

I also wondered whether there was any indication of costs to local authorities that might be anticipated. The Minister has told the Committee of the police's response, but local authorities may have concerns about policing in the widest sense.

Thirdly, I do not know whether it is proper to ask for news about Royal Assent for a Bill. Certainly, I would like to know about the commencement following Royal Assent to the Live Music Bill. I suppose it is still a Bill until it receives Royal Assent. It would allow for live music in the circumstances set out in the Bill. I am sure that we would not want to stop patriotic songs being sung during these hours. Can the Minister give me any news on that? I know that my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones who piloted the Bill in this House and my right honourable friend Don Foster would be just two of those who would be glad to hear news of its impending effect.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the Committee for adjourning for a few minutes to allow me to speak on behalf of the Opposition on this order. The Opposition wholly support the order. I have no questions for the Minister and I very much commend the order to the Committee.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am very grateful indeed for the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and particularly for his brevity. I will deal very quickly with what turned out to be three questions from my noble friend Lady Hamwee: she described them as two questions.

First, she asked why there were only two nights and whether we were being over-nannyish in not going for four nights or at least consulting on four nights. We thought that two nights would be more or less right. We thought that Friday and Saturday would be when people would be most likely to want to go out and socialise. We also thought that that would limit the burdens on the police. That is an important matter to take into account. That is why we consulted on just those two days.

My noble friend asked about the costs to local authorities. I am not aware that there will be any greater costs as a result of the order, although there might be as a result of Diamond Jubilee celebrations as a whole, but that is not a matter that we are discussing at the moment. Certainly, I am not aware of any objections from local authorities or the LGA as a result. If there are any, I will certainly write to my noble friend.

Thirdly, my noble friend asked about the Private Member’s Bill introduced in this House by my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, the Live Music Bill. I think that it has gone through this House and the other place and is waiting for Royal Assent. It would be wrong for me to make any comment on when Royal Assent might come to that Bill, but I know my noble friend is aware of the constitutional proprieties in these matters and knows that normally when Bills have gone from both Houses they receive Royal Assent in due course. But that is a matter way beyond my pay grade.

I hope that I have answered all the questions. I am very grateful for the support of my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and I look forward to all of us being able to celebrate Her Majesty's Diamond Jubilee, something that has happened only on the rarest occasions, in the appropriate manner in due course.

Policing Protocol Order 2012

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Wednesday 25th January 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

That this House regrets that the order has not been subject to a robust consultation process, thereby increasing the risk of politicising policing decisions through a failure to protect the operational independence of the police.

Relevant document: 46th Report from the Merits Committee.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, noble Lords will be aware of the concerns on this side of the House about the introduction of elected police commissioners and the risk of politicisation of our police forces. Rather like the NHS reforms, the Government are bizarrely set to draw a service up by its roots when it should be focused on meeting huge challenges. At the same time as these changes are taking place we are seeing 20 per cent front-loaded cuts to police budgets impacting on front-line services, forcing the retirement of some of the most experienced officers currently serving and the closure of many police stations. As we see from the latest crime figures, crime against the person has gone up by 11 per cent and there has been a 10 per cent increase in robberies involving knives. It is therefore extraordinary that, at this time of major challenges for our police services, the Government are pressing ahead with arrangements for elected police commissioners.

We have had extensive debates on this issue and I do not intend to go over those matters. It is good to see the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, in her place. She, of course, spent a great deal of time helping your Lordships with the legislation.

The order before us is one of many. The noble Lord, Lord Henley, kindly sent me a letter a few weeks ago containing a list of approaching 20 orders which will need to pass through Parliament in a fairly brief space of time. The reason for the rush is that the Government wish to proceed speedily in relation to London, with elections in the other 41 police authority areas in England and Wales taking place on 15 November this year.

I have some concerns about the implications of the speed with which the Government are pushing orders through your Lordships’ House and the other place. We can see from the report of the Select Committee on the Merits of Statutory Instruments the problem with that in relation to this important order, which embraces, essentially, the relationship between the elected police commissioner and the chief constable. It is clear that such a protocol should receive robust scrutiny. Noble Lords will know that the Merits Committee identified the relatively short timescale in which the protocol had been developed. It considered that a full consultation might have provided a more complete road test of the robustness of the protocols. Will the Minister respond to that point?

I also refer the Minister to the clarification that the committee sought. Appendix 1 of the committee’s memorandum shows the responses of his department. He will note that the committee remained concerned at the possible ambiguity of some of the drafting of the protocol. The Minister may like to comment on that point as well.

As I have said, elections are due to take place on 15 November in 41 police areas in England and Wales. That is not perhaps the best time of year to hold an election, with dark nights and little public interest so far. There is a real fear that the turnout could be low in these elections. The problem of low turnout is undermining the legitimacy of the elected police commissioners. Whatever one’s view of the principal legislation, now we move towards its implementation I am sure that we all agree that a large turnout would be a good thing, so that the police and crime commissioners have as much legitimacy as possible.

The protocol is important because there is real fear that the operational independence of chief constables could be undermined by political interference by police commissioners. The fact is that, whatever the protocol says, if you as a police commissioner have a hire and fire power over your chief constable and overall budgetary control, in the end what use is the protocol? All the levers are really with the police and crime commissioner.

What happens if a police commissioner is elected on a manifesto which has explicit operational pledges? That may be to abolish speed cameras, which the chief constable might believe save lives and are in his or her operational competence. There will be other examples where the election may be fought over what I am sure we would regard as operational issues. The moment a successful police commissioner comes into power on that manifesto, they will expect the chief constable to implement it. The chief constable may resist that and could perhaps point to the paragraph in the protocol that makes it clear that there should not be interference. We have a situation where almost all the power lies with the elected police commissioner, as I have said, with few checks and balances in the system.

The noble Baroness and I have debated at length the powers of the police and crime panels. She made some modifications in terms of the voting that applies to vetoes exercised by the panel. Overall, the powers of the panels are weak. It is really not clear in the protocol how they will enforce a regular check on the performance of the police commissioner, as set out in paragraph 14. I have no doubt that the noble Lord, Lord Henley, will say that that is surely a matter for the panels themselves. Given that the police and crime panels have so few levers, I would have thought it helpful to outline in some detail the powers that the panels might have to check on the performance of the police commissioner.

One of my fears about the new system is that chief constables will be subject to greater insecurity in their jobs and that we will tend to have a rapid turnover of them at the hands of police commissioners. We know that that happens in the US, which is where the idea came from. I know the health service rather better than I do the police service. I know the problems that have arisen when you have such a rapid turnover of chief execs. At one point there were so many restructurings—I am afraid that both parties have been responsible for that—that you had the ludicrous situation of the average chief executive spending no more than two years in the job. That does not create stability. My concern is that, in the run-up to a re-election for a police commissioner, the temptation will be very present to pick a fight with the chief constable and sack them.

I also raise the point raised by the Merits Committee on paragraph 3.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum. This is about the fact that the protocol is not drafted in legal language. That point was raised by honourable and right honourable Members in Committee in the other place when it considered the protocol. If the protocol is not drafted in legal language would it stand up in a court of law? The Minister might wish to comment on that.

Finally, in bringing this matter to the attention of noble Lords, I know that it is the intention of the Government for the protocol to be reviewed. Would the Minister commit to reviewing this after a period of 12 months—at the end of 2013—so that it can be done in the light of the first year of experience of relationships between elected police commissioners and chief constables? He may say that a system needs longer to bed down but, in view of this being—for me—the most important aspect of the whole architecture of the new policing system, it would provide considerable reassurance if the Government agreed to a review within very quick time. I beg to move.

[Baroness Browning]

My Lords, since the House viewed and debated the draft protocol, we now have in front of us the instrument, which has been subject to further consultations. I am very aware that the decision to put it on a statutory basis was influenced by representations made by Members of your Lordships’ House.

The consultation that has continued since the Bill became an Act has of course included the Association of Police Authorities, the Association of Chief Police Officers and the Association of Police Authority Chief Executives. We can be confident that those who really have a vested interest as well as a professional interest in what is in the protocol have continued to have an input into the document we see before us. Those important relationships, which your Lordships’ House has discussed in some detail on more than one occasion, between the chief constable, the PCC, the panel and not forgetting the Home Secretary have been laid out with clarity rather than prescription. I do not think it was ever the intention to prescribe through this document.

Those individual responsibilities and their inter-relationship are extremely clear in this statutory instrument. I clearly heard what was said about it not being in legal language. I am sure the Minister will reassure us in terms of any legal challenge. On reading it, I thought it was rather refreshing. Please God that more statutory instruments appear in language that we can read and understand on first reading. I hope that the Home Office will submit this document for the Plain English Award this year. That would be a first for a government department. I commend that suggestion to the Minister. It is very important not just that those who have to enact this understand it but that the wider public, too, can feel that it is something they can see, read and understand.

Briefly, because the House does not need me to read out the instrument before us, I recall clearly that one matter of great concern was the operational independence of the chief constable. I believe that the language used here clarifies the responsibility of the chief constable for maintaining the Queen’s peace and having direction over the forces, officers and staff while at the same time not going into that prescriptive detail that would quite clearly hamper the activities and freedom of the chief constable to take those operational decisions. That very important point has been well measured and found in the document.

I remind the House that police and crime commissioners have a statutory duty and electoral mandate to hold the police to account. All too often it has been the Home Office that has, from on high, sought to do that. This moves the responsibility down to a much more local and operational level. That democratic mandate brings policing so much closer to the people who are being policed while at the same time reminding us through the appropriate section that the Home Secretary still has and may at times need to use reserve powers with regard to policing.

The role of the panel, which we have debated in some detail on many occasions and on which the Government made considerable concessions when the Bill was before your Lordships' House, is very important. I am sure that in practice it will come to be seen as a very important role in holding police and crime commissioners to account.

I commend this protocol. A good job has been done here. I know that my noble friend the Minister will ensure that where and when necessary, with the appropriate consultation, the protocol will be a living document that will be amended as necessary as the years go by.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for his response to this statutory instrument debate and his assiduous attention to detail, which we all welcome. The noble Lord, Lord Imbert, put it so well when he talked about the reputation of the British police, which is of course a matter of concern to us all.

The Merits Committee has come in for a little criticism. Perhaps I ought to point out that the history of the noble Lord, Lord Henley, is a little misshapen. I remind him that the Merits Committee was set up after the Wakeham royal commission recommended such a committee, and it was under the auspices of a Labour Government that that royal commission was established. I had the honour of being the first chairman of the committee. I think the point that the committee made was in the context of the London situation. The Government are rushing all these orders through because they want to implement the Bill in London in double-quick time. The problem with that is that it gives less time for the general consultation and process to be undertaken in relation to the orders. Already, I see that the Merits Committee has reported on another order, the Elected Local Policing Bodies (Specified Information) Order 2011, which we will no doubt consider in due course. It is a pity that there has not been a little more time to consider these in general.

The noble Lord, Lord Henley, is able to reassure the House about the operational independence of chief constables. All I say to him is that when the police commissioner has both hire and fire powers and powers over budget, his or her abilities to delve into the operational matters of the chief constables will be legion. We will have to see. I welcome what he said in relation to a review—that the Government could not say when such a review would take place. However, it would be better—I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for her support on this—if such a review was undertaken as quickly as possible.

On the question of language, of course I welcome plain English. I agree that the protocol is very well written. The specific question was whether it could still be used in court. The point made by the Merits Committee is that the protocol was not written in usual legal language. That was the point that I put to the Minister. He reassures the House that he does not think it will be a problem. I am not sure that the courts are used to dealing with plain English, so perhaps it will be a challenge for them.

On the question of turnout, it was a bit rich for the noble Lord to say that it was all your Lordships’ fault that the election would take place in the dark nights of November. The Government had another choice; they could have brought it in next May. Not only would that have given your Lordships and the other place a little more time to consider these orders in some detail, but we might have been able to knock on doors in the evening in daylight. As it is, the Minister feels that there will be a good turnout. I certainly hope so and we all have a responsibility to do all we can to encourage a high turnout. However, a November election will not necessarily encourage that.

This has been a very good debate and I thank all noble Lords who have taken part. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion withdrawn.

Civil Procedure (Amendment No. 3) Rules 2012

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Monday 23rd January 2012 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, I shall speak also to the Rules of the Court of Judicature (Northern Ireland) (Amendment No. 4) 2012 order. The two statutory instruments introduce procedural rules for court proceedings under the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011. They add a new part to the civil procedure rules for England and Wales, and a new order to the rules of the Court of Judicature for Northern Ireland. The rules came into force on 15 January last year—the same date that the Act came into force—because it was necessary for TPIM proceedings to take place soon after commencement. However, the Act requires subsequent approval of the rules by each House, which is why we are here today.

The rules substantively reflect the rules that are already in place for control order proceedings. They set out the procedures to be followed when the Secretary of State applies to the court for permission to impose a TPIM notice—or for the court to confirm, or quash, one imposed without prior permission—and for the subsequent directions hearings and review hearings that must be held. The rules also set out the process for an individual to appeal against decisions made by the Secretary of State in relation to a TPIM notice.

The guiding principles behind the court rules are that the decisions that are the subject of the proceedings are properly reviewed; and that the court must ensure that information is not disclosed contrary to the public interest. The rules provide that sensitive “closed material” may be relied upon and must be protected, although the requirements of a fair trial take precedence. They also make provision about the role and functions of special advocates, who may be appointed by the Attorney-General to represent the interests of the individual in closed proceedings.

In our recent debates on the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act, the use of closed material and special advocates was explored in some detail. Closed material proceedings are undoubtedly controversial, I accept that, but are necessary to ensure that there can be effective judicial oversight of TPIM decisions, which inevitably rely upon sensitive material.

I can assure the Committee that the use of closed material and special advocates in this type of context is compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights, a position that the courts have confirmed. Indeed, the Act expressly provides that the rules do not require the court to act in a way inconsistent with Article 6 of the ECHR, the right to a fair trial. This is also the effect of the Human Rights Act.

Notwithstanding that the system is ECHR compatible, we understand that concerns remain. The Green Paper on justice and security is looking carefully at the use of sensitive information in civil proceedings, including suggestions as to how the special advocate system can be improved.

The rules provide a framework within which the Secretary of State, legal representatives, special advocates and the court work. In line with those provisions, the Lord Chief Justices of England and Wales and of Northern Ireland were consulted on the draft rules. Moreover, the Civil Procedure Rules Committee was given the opportunity to comment on a draft. I commend the rules and I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation of the two Motions that have been spoken to together. I also thank him for the invitation in our last debate for a meeting with the UK Border Agency chief executive. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, would wish me to say that we would very much appreciate that opportunity.

We have had extensive debates about the TPIM legislation going through your Lordships’ House, and this is not the moment for me to engage with the noble Lord in another debate on the principle. However, I would like to ask the noble Lord a couple of questions. First, I understand that nine people are currently subject to control orders. Would he be able to confirm that? Can he confirm that all nine people will be the subject of applications in relation to TPIM notices? He will be aware that, of course, a high threshold is required for the imposition of a TPIM notice. The TPIM regime provides for more tightly prescribed powers than control orders. It is therefore reasonable to ask him whether the new regime is intended to apply to all these nine people currently subject to control orders. If it is considered that there are some people who will not meet the new threshold, can he provide some satisfaction in relation to the safeguarding of security interests in relation to those people? I understand that this is a sensitive issue and that the noble Lord may be somewhat restricted in what he has to say, but he will probably get the drift of the general principle that I am putting forward here, which essentially is this. What are the differences between the current control orders and the TPIM notices?

I should like the noble Lord to reassure me about the state of readiness of the police and the security services for the new regime. We have the transition period that will allow the new circumstances to be brought into operation. I shall not go over in great detail the evidence given by the Metropolitan Police to the Special Bill Committee which considered the Bill in the other place, but he will be aware that at that point, the representative of the Metropolitan Police said that it would take at least a year to get the right equipment, resources and people in place in order to be able to implement the new regime. In our debates on the Bill as it went through your Lordships’ House, the Minister and his predecessor were confident that the arrangements would be in place sooner than the period of 12 months. Is he satisfied that the appropriate people are in place, that they have been trained and that they have the right equipment so that the new regime can start in good order from the date set out in the order?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I cannot comment on whether the nine individuals referred to by the noble Lord will transfer to TPIM notices, but what lay behind the gist of his question was whether people, in terms of civil procedures, come under what used to be referred to as the White Book. We are not immediately repealing the old civil procedure, so any that were being dealt with in the courts using the old civil procedures, those procedures will still apply, but the new TPIM ones will be covered by what we are debating today, and they came into effect in December.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

That is very helpful. I realise that it is difficult for the Minister to talk about individual people who are affected, but on a theoretical basis, if a person is currently under a control order, is it possible for them to continue under that order? Is that what the noble Lord is saying?

[Lord Henley]

What I am saying is that if they were still under a control order, they would be dealt with under the old control order civil procedings. I do not think that I can take the noble Lord much further. All I am saying is that we have not repealed the old orders. If they were being looked at under a control order, they will continue under the control order proceedings, and these broadly reflect those proceedings. As I have said, all we are dealing with here is the process of making amendments to civil procedure. It is therefore still possible to use the old procedure for those who are covered by it. But, obviously, control orders will not continue beyond 25 January, at which point it will be a TPIM. What we are debating here is the civil procedure. I hope that that deals with the noble Lord’s queries.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I do not want to be difficult. All I seek is a reassurance. I understand entirely what the noble Lord is saying about the basis for the civil procedure, but I am really looking for some reassurance that he is satisfied that as we move from a control order regime to the new regime, the people who were affected under the old control order regime and need to be subject to those provisions will, in the new circumstances of TPIM and given that the security provisions are paramount, indeed be subject to them.

[Lord Henley]

Obviously those provisions are of paramount importance, but as I made clear in my opening remarks, the right to a fair trial is also equally important.

The second major point made by the noble Lord was on the state of readiness of the police, which goes wider than the matter we are debating today. The noble Lord rightly said that when I introduced these rules, I made it clear that I was confident that that was the case, but before he even asked the question, he wrote down that I had moved from being confident to being satisfied, which formed the basis of the question he put to me. I can give the noble Lord an assurance that I am satisfied that everything is in place as it should be, and that I think the same is true of the police. With that, I hope that the Motion will be agreed.

Immigration (Biometric Registration) (Amendment) Regulations 2012

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Monday 23rd January 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for explaining the background to these regulations. To date, the UK has partially complied with the EU regulation by undertaking the rollout of the permit incrementally by immigration application category. We support the general thrust of the regulations, but it would be helpful if the noble Lord would give the Committee an outline of what further stages need to be gone through before the work is complete.

In his speech today, the noble Lord referred to the Written Statement of 6 December in which he said that, on the overseas rollout of biometric permits, the Government will return to Parliament with plans, including policy proposals, for the final stage. This will be after the accreditation period of the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games. Will the noble Lord give a little more information about that, and about when he intends to return to Parliament with his plans? Will he also say what will be the nature of the legislation that he will bring to Parliament—is it primary or secondary legislation?

Perhaps I might also ask him about public consultation on the regulations. Page 5 of the impact assessment sets out the process of consultation in some detail, and also refers to two surveys launched by the UK Border Agency in 2011. The impact assessment says that these various consultations,

“have informed the high level policy”.

That is always reassuring to know. However, it is silent on the actual results of the consultation. It would be helpful to know what the main thrust of the results was and how that informed high-level policy.

I would be grateful if the Minister would answer three further questions. First, will he give me an idea of how many permits he expects will be issued under these provisions? The second follows what the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, said in relation to the UK Border Agency’s staff resource issues over the past 18 months. The Minister and his esteemed predecessors brought to your Lordships’ House a number of proposals and changes in policy that added to the responsibilities of the UK Border Agency. We know that the agency has had to bear its share of the cuts in funding to the Home Office. I echo the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, that the UKBA has been given additional responsibilities and fewer resources. No doubt the noble Lord, Lord Henley, will talk about efficiencies that he hopes to drive through the system—which is a very fair point—but my experience is that when you do that, in the end the thing falls over. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has given examples of the impact on the time taken to process applications, and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Henley, will come back to us on that.

Thirdly, on IT, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, suggested that this might be a routine application. My experience in government is that nothing in IT should ever be described as routine. One has to accept that these are very complex issues, but it would none the less be helpful to the Committee if the Minister would say something about the IT challenges that are being faced. Will the Minister also talk about the cost of implementation overseas? How does he anticipate that cost being met out of his budget?

However, in general, the Opposition support these proposals, which of course flow from the UK Borders Act introduced by the previous Government.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for finally getting to that crucial bit at the end and saying—as did his right honourable friend in the Commons—that the Opposition welcome these orders. After all, they simply follow from what his Government started as part of a continuous process of gradual rollout. The noble Lord asked what further stages were necessary for dealing with this. He will be more than happy that I can give him an assurance that—as I understand it; I will write to him if I am wrong—no further primary legislation will be necessary, although there will be a need to return to Parliament with some secondary legislation in due course.

For the overseas rollout of biometric permits, we are completing a very comprehensive analysis of our options to identify the most cost-effective solution that will have the least impact on our customers and will take account of our commitments under EU legislation. A number of factors are relevant, including the timing of the 2012 Olympic Games and the rollout of other new technology for the agency, and we will return to Parliament with this as soon as possible after the Games. For that reason, at this stage I cannot say anything more about what I think the noble Lord described as his third question—although there seemed to be more than three—on the cost of implementation overseas. If I have any further information, I will let the noble Lord know in due course.

The noble Lord also asked how many permits in total we would issue each year. Based on 2010’s published figures, we could expect around 550,000 permits a year to be issued. However, a reduction in this figure to around 400,000 could be expected given the significant number of grants made on a discretionary basis in 2010, mainly under measures aimed at clearing a backlog of outstanding unresolved cases and because of the impact of policy changes to the points-based system. I hope that that assists the noble Lord.

Immigration

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Monday 19th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, we will obviously listen to those academics but I have to say that the university sector as a whole is not complaining about what is happening. What we did was introduce a cap of just over 20,000 people, following the advice of the Migration Advisory Committee, on the number of skilled workers who were coming in. So far, in the first six months of this year, some 6,000 of those places were taken up—there is obviously a lot of slack in the system. There is no danger that any skilled workers are being denied the opportunity to come in.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, on the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, can we come back to the issue of universities and overseas students? The Minister has always maintained that the Government’s restrictions were aimed at bogus colleges. If we accept that, will he acknowledge that universities are now reporting that the policy is having an impact? First-class universities are being affected by the cap and first-class students are being turned away. Surely that part of the policy ought to be reviewed.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, obviously, we will keep all these matters under review as is appropriate, but the noble Lord will also accept that it is quite right that we should attack the bogus colleges, which his party took no trouble to attack over the years. That is why there was a dramatic rise in the number of people coming here allegedly to learn English or some other thing, who went to colleges where no courses were going on and virtually no one enrolled other than to get round immigration rules.

Elected Local Policing Bodies (Complaints and Misconduct) Regulations 2011

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Wednesday 14th December 2011 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, in speaking to the Elected Local Policing Body (Complaints and Misconduct) Regulations 2011, I shall speak also to the Local Policing Bodies (Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2011. The first set of regulations make consequential amendments to various existing statutory instruments arising from the replacement of police authorities by PCCs and the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime, and from the fact that chief officers of police will employ police staff in the future. The second set of regulations sets out the way in which complaints against police and crime commissioners, the mayor’s office and their deputies will be handled.

I will come to the regulations in a moment but I want to start by setting the context and talking about PCCs more generally. The Committee will recall that the Government’s plans for police and crime commissioners are set out in the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011. There will be 41 elected PCCs in England and Wales who will take office on 22 November 2012. Ahead of that we expect to have a live PCC model up and running in London when the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime comes into effect in January.

There has been vigorous discussion and full scrutiny of our plan for PCCs. There has been a public consultation and, as the noble Lord will remember, a lengthy debate in Parliament. The Government listened to concerns. We strengthened the checks and balances on PCCs. We have taken every step to ensure that the British model of impartial policing, which we all prize, is preserved, and Parliament has now spoken.

I now turn to the secondary legislation that is needed to bring about these changes and the subject matter of this debate today; namely the 2011 consequential amendments regulations and the complaints and misconduct regulations. I will take them in turn, starting with the consequential amendments regulations. The regulations make consequential amendments to various existing statutory instruments arising from the replacement of police authorities by PCCs and the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime, and from the fact that chief officers of police will employ police staff in the future.

The Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act makes significant changes to the governance arrangements for policing in England and Wales, with the exception of the City of London police area. The Act abolishes the police authorities responsible for maintaining police forces outside London and replaces them with directly elected PCCs. The Act also abolishes the Metropolitan Police Authority and replaces it with the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime, an office held by the Mayor of London. In the City of London, the Common Council retains its role as the police authority, and the status of the commissioner of the City of London Police remains unchanged. The Act refers to PCCs, the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime and the Common Council collectively as “local policing bodies”.

The consequential regulations in question are not intended to change the substantive effect of the various instruments being amended, except for the purposes of reflecting the changes made by the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011. Specifically, the regulations will amend the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Drug Testing of Persons in Police Detention) (Prescribed Persons) Regulations 2001 to ensure that members of police staff continue to be prescribed as persons permitted to take samples from suspects in police detention for the purposes of drug testing. The amendments to the Docking of Working Dogs’ Tails (England) Regulations 2007 allow members of police staff to continue to present police dogs for certification as working dogs for the purposes of the working dogs’ exemption to the prohibition on the docking of dogs’ tails. Finally, the changes to the Local Authorities (Alcohol Disorder Zones) Regulations 2008 allow for costs in relation to members of police staff designated as community support officers to continue to be included in charges levied in relation to alcohol disorder zones. The costs incurred in relation to the staff and police officers that are currently payable to the police authority will be payable to the local policing body.

Section 6(15) of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 requires the Secretary of State to have consulted those persons appearing to her to represent interests with which these regulations are concerned as she considers appropriate. As the amendments made to the Docking of Working Dogs’ Tails (England) Regulations 2007, to which that requirement relates, concern only police dogs, and the only amendments are for the purpose of replacing references to police authorities, the Secretary of State considered it appropriate to consult only the Association of Police Authorities and the Association of Chief Police Officers. These bodies had no comments to make on the instrument.

Sections 15 to 20 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006, under which the Local Authorities (Alcohol Disorder Zones) Regulations 2008 were made, are repealed by Section 140 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011. However, the Government do not intend to bring Section 140 into force until later in 2012.

As the amendments made to existing instruments are limited, the Home Secretary has no intention to issue guidance or review the impact of these changes. The intention is that these regulations will come into force in January 2012 in the Metropolitan Police Service area of London and in the following November for the rest of the country.

I now turn to the Elected Local Policing Body (Complaints and Misconduct) Regulations. It is expected that PCCs and their deputies will uphold the highest standards of public office. However, in the event that there is a complaint or an allegation against one of them, it is important that this is handled effectively to ensure that public confidence in policing is maintained. The Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 therefore provides for regulations to set out the way in which complaints or conduct matters about elected local policing bodies will be handled. The Act requires the regulations to provide for allegations of criminal behaviour to be referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission, and allegations of non-criminal behaviour to be resolved informally by police and crime panels.

The reason for requiring criminal allegations to be referred to the IPCC is that otherwise the office holder may be, or may be perceived to be, at an advantage in relation to the police investigation because of his or her responsibilities for holding their police force to account. The IPCC has extensive experience of handling sensitive, complex and high profile cases and will provide independent scrutiny of the handling and investigation of allegations of criminal behaviour in this context. The regulations set out that criminal allegations will have to be passed to the IPCC quickly and give the IPCC a call-in power—a power to require that allegations against the office holder are referred to it. The regulations also give the IPCC strong powers to investigate criminal allegations which are similar to those for investigating police forces, and require the IPCC to publish a report following its investigation.

Where a complaint is not serious enough to require investigation by or under the management of the IPCC, the regulations provide for it to be resolved informally by police and crime panels. The arrangements for PCP resolution of non-criminal allegations are intended to be light touch and locally determined, although it is intended that the Home Secretary will give some guidance in this area. Panels will be able to delegate the initial handling but not the resolution of complaints to the IPCC’s monitoring officer. We expect that the officer will wish to keep abreast of the handling of complaints through regular reports. The regulations allow non-criminal complaints against the mayor, as the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime, or the deputy mayor for policing and crime, if he or she is a member of the London Assembly, to be dealt with in the same way as complaints about the Mayor of London or the London Assembly. This is intended to avoid any potential confusion arising from the MOPC being subject to two different standards of procedures.

The regulations have been developed by the Home Office with some of the main delivery partners who will be affected by the proposals, as set out in the regulations. There has also been a public consultation process which received 31 responses. The Government have considered those responses very carefully and have made some important changes as a result. The main changes that we have made are designed to improve co-ordination of the handling of complaints at local level and to keep any bureaucracy associated with administering the system to an absolute minimum. The intention is that these regulations will come into force in January and will have effect from that date in the Metropolitan Police Service area. They will have effect from November 2012 in the rest of England and Wales when the first PCCs take office.

I said at the beginning that Parliament has now spoken in relation to the PCC model, and the Government’s focus is now on making this model a reality. The regulations before the Committee are an important part of the legislative jigsaw that will make this happen and I commend them to the House. I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am sure that we are all very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for his explanation of the two statutory instruments that we are debating together this afternoon. As he rightly said, it is only a few weeks ago since we finished proceedings on the Government’s misguided proposals to establish elected police commissioners, but the Opposition will take a constructive approach to these regulations and the many others that are due to come to your Lordships’ House over the next few weeks and months.

As the noble Lord suggested, the regulations under consideration have been developed to a very tight timetable to enable London to transfer early from the current Metropolitan Police Authority to the new Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime. The problem is that, because of the rush, we are not being allowed sufficient time or opportunity to explore the implications of the regulations for the rest of England and Wales before we deal with the issue in London. Can the noble Lord give me some idea of the timetable for all the other regulations that will be produced? There is some hint that there is a less than cohesive approach to doing this. For instance, while a shadow strategic policing requirement and protocol have been laid, the finance code has not—unless that has been done very recently. That makes it difficult to understand the balance of powers between the chief officer, the PCC and the panel because we do not have a complete picture.

Similarly the regulations on PCC complaints have been laid but the regulations on panels have not. Again, that makes it difficult to understand how the complaints process will work, for instance, in relation to the powers of the panel to suspend PCCs. It would be helpful if the noble Lord, either here or perhaps in correspondence, could set out the programme that the department is working to so that Parliament can consider the many statutory instruments that will have to be laid.

There are three matters missing from the regulations that I wish to put to the noble Lord. The first is the absence of any code of conduct or other means of defining what acceptable behaviour is and is not in non-criminal complaints that are subject to informal resolution. The second is the absence of any sanctions or similar powers for the panel in dealing with PCCs that misbehaved. The third is the absence of any provisions dealing with powers of the panel to suspend PCCs or the process that it should follow. I should be grateful if the noble Lord would comment on that.

I have, of course, discussed this with the Association of Police Authorities, which is worried about the lack of clarity with regard to both acceptable standards of behaviour and the panel’s power in relation to informal resolution. That might result in complainants believing that it is better to frame their complaints in criminal terms in order to ensure that they are dealt with satisfactorily. The example that has been given to me is rude behaviour by the PCC, and we have to reflect that this is a political officeholder. Rude behaviour is not unknown from such political office holders—not, of course, the noble Lord himself, who is always an example of chivalry, gentleness and kindness, but there are politicians who do not have the noble Lord’s high standards.

Taking the example of rude behaviour, the risk for the APA is that this might be framed as harassment, conflict of interest or fraud in order to ensure that it is dealt with by the IPCC, whose role is much clearer under these regulations, and that there is a proper resolution with meaningful sanctions, in contrast to it being dealt with under informal resolution. This is an important point on which the noble Lord might be able to reassure me. Clearly, however dubious I am about the elected police commissioners, one does not want a lot of complaints being made in an unscrupulous way, which would actually inhibit the police and crime commissioners in the course of their duty. I would certainly be worried if there was a temptation by complainants to, in a sense, upgrade their complaint in order for it to be dealt with by the IPCC because there is a lack of clarity about how the informal resolution process might work.

We then come to the issue of what, if anything, a panel can do under the informal resolution proposal to ensure that a PCC makes reparation for bad behaviour. If the panel has no powers in that respect, what happens when a police and crime commissioner rejects a means of reparation that the panel has suggested? What recourse does a complainant then have to ensure that the matter is resolved to his or her satisfaction? Again, I put it to the noble Lord that, if the complainant is dissatisfied, one of their options might be to have recourse to the media. The risk of that, I suppose, is that publicity will have an adverse impact on public trust in policing.

The noble Lord will be aware that one of my concerns about the whole notion of elected police commissioners is that it will reduce public confidence. Clearly we can argue about that, and I am very tempted to invite the noble Lord to have another debate about the principle, but I will not do that. However, Parliament having enacted the legislation, it is important that we work together to make it as effective as possible. I am concerned that, if the public do not have confidence in the informal resolution process, as I have said, either they will upgrade complaints in the future or the process will be discredited, and you may well find that the position of the PCC is also discredited. So I think that this is worth looking at.

Some other, rather more technical issues have been raised. Is there not a need for regulations to state explicitly that a force cannot be asked to undertake the investigation of a PCC if he or she is the PCC for that force or connected to that force through collaboration, agreement or close association? It is probably implicit in paragraph 19(3)(b) but would there be argument over how “impartially” should be interpreted?

I understand the logic of appointing the PCC’s chief executive as monitoring officer to the panel—covered in paragraph 7—to achieve national consistency, particularly in Wales where panels will not be part of local government and so will not have automatic access to monitoring officers in local authorities. Is there a risk of putting that chief executive in a difficult situation? Remember the concept of corporate sole means that the employer of the chief executive is the PCC himself or herself against whom a complaint is being made. Is there not a risk that the monitoring officer will not be able to effectively carry out that duty?

The panels will be asked to judge whether a complaint is serious or not. I assume that means that they will look to the monitoring officer for advice. Again, I point out to the noble Lord that there will be a delicate relationship between the role of the monitoring officer’s chief executive and the PCC who is their direct and only sole employer. It is rather different in corporate set-ups where the company secretary or board secretary would probably carry out that role. It is rather different if it is the chief executive. Might the Government be prepared to look at that, in terms of advice on how it might work in practice?

Paragraph 15(3)(a) raises some concerns. Complaints brought by employees to the PCC cannot be dealt with through these regulations where they concern a PCC’s conduct only towards his or her staff. I well understand that there needs to be provision within employment procedures for handling much of this through established grievance procedures but might there be a possibility that that will not address the situation where an employee is accusing, say, a PCC of a criminal complaint such as harassment? What, for instance, would happen in the case of alleged harassment?

What about joint complaints to the chief constable and deputy or assistant chief constable? With the chief constable becoming the appropriate authority for chief officer complaints, there is concern among chief authorities about the potential situation where a joint complaint has been made against the chief constable and someone in the chief officer team. This could result in a chief constable effectively investigating their own complaint. That might strike at public confidence. The question here is whether that should then give the PCC locus in relation to any less senior officer. I would be grateful for some clarification on that.

Are there enough checks and balances around the PCC’s ability to dismiss the chief officer? Of course, we have discussed this in our debate on the Bill. It is worth making the point that PCCs will have to take account of general law considerations when exercising their powers to dismiss a chief constable. It is not a matter for the regulations but it might be one for the guidance that I hope will be given to PCCs on this matter. Indeed, I would strongly advise the Minister’s department to look seriously at the advice and training or development to be given to PCCs on these matters. On that, I assume that there will be some development programmes for the newly elected PCCs. I would certainly put that proposal forward to be considered.

Turning to the fees regulations, these look straightforward. The opportunity to debate the issue of working dogs’ tails with the noble Lord, with his vast experience of such matters, and with his fellow Defra Ministers from past years would be invigorating, but I shall desist. However, I want to ask him about the financial code. A draft code has clearly been circulated round the usual bodies that comment on police matters. My understanding is that a final agreed version is not yet available, but that the work on the drafting has identified a number of challenges. The real issue here is the introduction of two corporates sole, the chief constable and the police and crime commissioner. The audit and all financial matters are unduly and unnecessarily complicated because of that structure. If there is any information that the noble Lord could give me, I would be grateful.

[Baroness Hamwee]

Like the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I resist entering into a debate on working dogs’ tails, although it was the very point that I marked when I first read the regulations. I will not repeat questions that he asked that arise from concerns expressed by the Association of Police Authorities, save about a couple of matters, one of which is to ask about updated information on what I would describe as interlocking regulations; they may not formally interlock, but in practical terms they will.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, talked about politics being played with in complaints. It is not always the subject of a complaint who has played politics; quite often the complainant uses procedures to play politics.

It is not directly a subject of the statutory instruments, but closely related is the proposed funding of police and crime panels. I have heard concerns that the funding will be very low indeed, only enough for one member of staff and perhaps four meetings a year. These regulations are, one hopes, only a small part of the remit of the police and crime panels, which need to be funded—not extravagantly, but adequately and appropriately. The legislation gives them a wider remit than just complaints.

Thinking about that made me wonder whether that was why, in the consultation process, it was proposed that the police and crime panel should be able to delegate to the chief executive of the police and crime commissioner; the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has already referred to that. I am a bit uneasy, not because of the point about impartiality or objectivity which the APA has raised, but because it seems to confuse the roles of the two entities.

Nor am I immediately convinced about using the local code of conduct in the case of the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime and the deputy if the deputy is an Assembly Member, because of their own role in creating that local code. That raises some quite interesting issues. We do not really know where we are with codes and local government yet. I asked one of my colleagues who is still a councillor, and he says that a lot of consultation is going on, but of course these are to be local decisions, even if local authorities adopt the same or a similar standard.

I also want to ask about Regulation 26(4) of the complaints and misconduct regulations; this is a detail, I know.

I was interested that the IPCC will be able to take a view as to whether what is a possible criminal offence is “appropriate”—that is the word—to be considered by the Director of Public Prosecutions. I am sorry that I gave the Minister so very little notice of this matter. As I have said to him, I only managed to look at these regulations at lunchtime. But it seems rather odd to put that power in the hands of the IPCC.

I am interested that the regulations modify Section 22 of the 2002 Act. They seem to do little more than substitute the dramatis personae. As now, the Secretary of State’s approval will be required for commission guidance but, as far as I can see, the power for the Secretary of State herself to issue guidance is new. It may be that the 2011 Act has allowed for this. I would just pause on regulations adding that right for the Secretary of State—not that you could ever stop a Secretary of State issuing guidance—but it might affect the status of the guidance. I do not know whether the Minister will be able to answer my question, which, in effect, is: is there a substantive change brought about in this by the regulations?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for making clear that they do not want me to go any further on working dogs’ tails and we will leave that for another day. Perhaps I may start by making a brief reference to my noble friend Lady Browning who, after all, took the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act through Parliament. She completed that before she stood down, at which point I moved to the Home Office, and we are very grateful to her for all that she did. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is mistaken in describing that Act, which is now on the statute book, as being misguided. As I have made clear, it is now a done deal and Parliament, as I have said, has spoken.

The noble Lord also complained about the rush that is taking place. I do not believe that there is a rush. Obviously, things are marginally tighter for London where things happen faster than in the rest of the country, but the rest of the country has until 22 November 2012. I am sure that it—and the Met—will cope. Certainly, we have had no expressions of concern from the Met about that.

The noble Lord also asked about training programmes and what we are going to do to get the PCCs into the right position for when they are set up, which is obviously of very great concern to my right honourable friend, Nick Herbert, the Minister with responsibility for policing and crime. He chairs a transition board, which includes all the key parties, including the chief executives of police authorities. I assure the noble Lord that everyone involved will be included. My right honourable friend has got the message and he is making sure that something effective will be set up and that we have an efficient transition.

The noble Lord was also worried about the number of further instruments that will be needed to set up these regulations. I referred to a jigsaw and this is just a part of it. Not all of what is coming through will be statutory instruments that will need to go through this House, although some will be. In order to get the detail right, it would probably be best if I wrote to the noble Lord to give him a timetable to assist him in this matter.

He also spoke about the absence of any code of conduct, which was also raised by my noble friend Lady Hamwee. I must make absolutely clear that these bodies will be subject, as elected bodies, to all the noble principles by which we abide. That was clearly set out in the protocol. It is also obvious that they will possibly wish to establish certain locally designed meaningful codes of conduct which they think are appropriate for them. Again, that deals with one of the concerns of my noble friend.

The noble Lord was worried about the absence of any sanctions for dealing with police and crime commissioners. What he must remember is that they are democratically elected bodies. Ultimately, that is the sanction. That is why we brought them in and why we think they will do a good job. They will conduct their business in public, so transparency will be a key tool in how the public view them. I think that this will be a great improvement on the system we have at the moment.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

I am grateful to the noble Lord and I fully understand the point. Indeed, I remember that when the standards board came in in relation to local government, I thought that some of its earlier judgments were actually inhibiting the democratic process. In no way would I want, if you like, to encourage a bureaucratic process that interferes with the relationship between the elected police and crime commissioner and the electorate. The problem I have is that if the public think the informal resolution process is not very effective, they will be tempted to over-egg the pudding and go for a complaint that will have to be considered by the IPCC. If that happens, I worry that many police and crime commissioners are going to be held back because they could get a plethora of complaints like that. It suggests that there is a need to get the balance right and that we must ensure that the informal process has at least some potential for dealing with these matters effectively in order to prevent a kind of upgrading of complaints.

[Lord Henley]

I am glad that the noble Lord used the word “balance” because obviously that is the thing we have to get right. We believe that we have got it right and it is important that we ensure that the processes are in place. There is transparency and the democratic process which I think will be sufficient. If I am wrong in that and if, as the noble Lord puts it, there is a plethora of complaints, we would have to think again. However, I do not believe that that will be the case.

Perhaps I may move on to some of the other queries of the noble Lord. Having listened to the Association of Police Authorities, he worried about rude behaviour on the part of police and crime commissioners themselves, something he said was not unknown among elected politicians. However, I suppose that I am only a partially elected politician and the noble Lord is an appointed politician. We both know that this can and does happen occasionally, but I hope that it does not happen too often. Moreover, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his kind remarks. The important point to remember is that if any rude behaviour went so far as to be illegal, it would be something that the IPCC would have to deal with. If not, it would be something that quite rightly would go back to the police and crime panel itself.

I turn now to some of the more detailed points made by the noble Lord in relation to conflict of interest. I have to make it clear that we would leave it to the IPCC itself to decide if it was appropriate for the home force or another force to deal with the issue. Again, the IPCC is the right body to deal with this. The noble Lord went on to ask whether a police and crime commissioner’s monitoring officer would have a conflict of interest if he was handling a complaint against the PCC. I do not think that there is necessarily a conflict of interest. The police and crime panel can choose to delegate the handling of complaints to the PCC’s monitoring officer, but it does not have to do so.

The monitoring officer will only be responsible for the initial handling of complaints, not for their resolution. In many ways the arrangement reflects current police authority practice, where police authority staff handle complaints against members of staff.

The noble Lord then asked a fairly detailed question about staff complaints under paragraph 15(3)(a), I believe. I refer him to paragraph 15(3)(b). It does not take a complaint by a member of the PCC staff outside the scope of the regulations, and it allows but does not require the PCC to set aside the regulations. The PCC could decide that it would be proper to continue to deal with the complaint—for example, of bullying by the PCC. So that is something that they would be able to deal with.

Then there was the important question from my noble friend Lady Hamwee as to whether the level of resources would be adequate; my noble friend was very worried that they would not be. I can give her an assurance that I believe that they will be both adequate and appropriate. Police and crime panels will be resourced to perform their vital scrutiny function in relation to the PCC—including work and relation complaints. They will also be able to delegate the initial handling of complaints to the PCC’s monitoring officer, which I hope will minimise the administrative burden involved. They will retain responsibility for the informal resolution of complaints but will be able to delegate that task, where necessary, to a single panellist and a subgroup of the panel or any other individual and return matters to the full panel only where required.

Lastly, the noble Lord asked about the financial code. I can give him an assurance that it is being drafted with partners. We are confident that we have worked through the issues and that it will be produced at an appropriate stage. I cannot give a precise date at this point, so I will just say soon, which seems to encompass a vast range of time on this occasion.

I appreciate that I probably will not have dealt with all the more detailed questions, and I am certainly more than happy to write to both my noble friend and the noble Lord in due course to pick up some of those points. I do not believe that these are highly controversial regulations, so at this stage I hope that noble Lords are satisfied.

Accession (Immigration and Worker Authorisation) (Amendment) Regulations 2011

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Wednesday 14th December 2011 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, I beg to move that these Regulations be now considered by the Grand Committee.

This is a slightly different subject and I shall set it out in a degree of detail. The Government announced on 23 November that transitional restrictions currently applied in respect of Bulgarian and Romanian nationals’ access to the labour market will be extended to the end of 2013. These regulations achieve that by extending the transitional period during which the current regulations apply until the end of 2013. The amending regulations make no other changes to the current regulations.

The context of the Government’s decision is that the terms of the treaty governing the accession of Bulgaria and Romania to the European Union provide for the existing member states, if they choose, to regulate access to their labour markets by nationals from the Republic of Bulgaria or Romania. This is a permitted derogation from the EU’s free movement rules. Such restrictions may be applied for up to a maximum of seven years, but may only be maintained beyond five years where there is, to use the words in the treaty,

“serious disturbance of the labour market, or the threat thereof”.

As noble Lords will know, the Government are committed to reducing net migration to the United Kingdom. It is of course the case that after 2013, Bulgarian and Romanian nationals will be free to enter the United Kingdom for the purpose of work in the same way as any other EU nationals. The free movement of workers within the EU is a fundamental element of the internal market and it is one that brings benefits to the United Kingdom, not least as an exporter of workers to other member states.

On the other hand, the United Kingdom experienced a very significant influx of workers from the new member states that joined the EU in May 2004. It has been sensible, both in the light of that experience and the changed economic circumstances, to take a more gradualist approach to subsequent accessions. The Government are clear that they will apply transitional restrictions to nationals of countries joining the EU in the future. Similarly, for as long as it remains legally possible and proportionate for the United Kingdom to apply transitional restrictions on Bulgarian and Romanian workers, and there is a compelling labour market case for doing so, it will be prudent for those restrictions to be maintained.

The United Kingdom has applied restrictions on Bulgarian and Romanian nationals’ access to the labour market since those countries joined the EU on 1 January 2007. Whereas nationals of those countries joining the EU in May 2004 were simply required to register their employment under the worker registration scheme, Bulgarian and Romanian nationals have been subject to more substantive restrictions on permission to take employment in the United Kingdom. Their effect is to preserve the level of access to the United Kingdom’s labour market which Bulgarian and Romanian nationals enjoyed when they joined the EU. The standstill clause in the treaty means that we cannot impose controls that are more restrictive than those that were in place on 31 December 2006.

Under the current regulations, Bulgarian and Romanian nationals are required to obtain authorisation from the UK Border Agency before they take employment in the United Kingdom. This will normally require the employer to apply for a work permit in respect of the job in question and such a permit will normally only be issued in respect of skilled employment and where resident labour is unavailable to fill the vacancy. Bulgarian and Romanian workers are also able to obtain authorisation to take lower-skilled employment in the agricultural and food processing sectors under the quota-limited seasonal agricultural workers scheme and sectors based scheme. As the terms of the derogation require, the requirement to obtain work authorisation ceases once a Bulgarian or Romanian worker has completed 12 months’ authorised employment in the United Kingdom. The regulations also provide for the most highly skilled to be granted free access to the labour market from the outset.

The effect of the current restrictions is that a Bulgarian or Romanian national who intends to take employment in the United Kingdom will have a right to reside as a worker only if they are working in accordance with these restrictions. However, the restrictions do not and cannot interfere with the ability of a Bulgarian or Romanian national to exercise a right to reside in the UK on some other basis; for example, as a student or for the purpose of engaging in business. What they do ensure is that labour migration from Bulgaria and Romania reflects the UK’s economic needs by restricting employment authorisations to skilled work or employment in sectors where there are well established shortages of labour. Furthermore, the numbers given permission to work under these arrangements have not increased since the date of accession. Excluding participants in the seasonal agricultural workers scheme, the number of Bulgarian and Romanian nationals issued with accession worker cards in 2010 was 2,616, compared with 2,776 in 2008 and 2,097 in 2007.

As I have noted, the United Kingdom can only maintain its existing restrictions in circumstances of serious labour market disturbance. The Government have been concerned to ensure that the question of whether there is a labour market case for extending the restrictions is examined fully. The Minister for Immigration and Citizenship therefore asked the independent Migration Advisory Committee to consider whether there is a serious disturbance to the United Kingdom’s labour market and whether maintaining the restrictions would assist in addressing that disturbance. The committee’s findings, which it published on 4 November, were clear. On the question of whether the labour market is seriously disturbed, it examined the performance of the labour market against a number of indicators and concluded that it was performing poorly relative to the period prior to the last recession. On that basis, it is in a state of serious disturbance. It went on to conclude that an increase in the inflow of Bulgarian and Romanian nationals could have negative impacts on the labour market, particularly if it coincided with a change in the composition of that inflow, and that lifting the current restrictions would increase that risk. On the composition of the inflow, a particular risk would be that lifting the restrictions might increase the number of Bulgarian and Romanian nationals entering lower skilled occupations where migrants are more likely to substitute for, rather than complement, the resident labour force.

The committee acknowledged that the extent to which maintaining restrictions would assist in addressing such disturbance is subject to considerable uncertainty and it would not be sensible to attempt to put a numerical range around the likely inflow if restrictions were lifted. The Government would be equally cautious of attempting to do so. Nevertheless, the conclusion to be drawn from the committee’s findings is that a decision to maintain the restrictions would be both justifiable under the derogation in the treaty on accession and a proportionate response to current labour market disturbance. Accordingly, the Government have decided that the restrictions should be maintained.

I should add that Germany and the Netherlands have recently announced that they will maintain their restrictions. Spain has recently reimposed restrictions and will maintain them until at least the end of 2012. This is significant and not just because it means that the United Kingdom is not out of step with key EU partners on this issue. As the Migration Advisory Committee pointed out in its response, the risk of greater inflows would be highest if the United Kingdom lifted its transitional measures but other member states maintained theirs. The Government’s decision has avoided that outcome.

The Government believe that extending the current restriction to the end of 2013 is proportionate and the right response to current labour market conditions. I therefore commend the measure to the House.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am sure that the Grand Committee is grateful to the noble Lord for his extensive introduction to these regulations. I was particularly interested in the advice that he read out from the Migration Advisory Committee. He will be aware that when the extension was agreed beyond January 2009, the committee reported in a similar vein at that time and said the impact of lifting the restrictions would be small but that the risks to the labour market were mainly on the downside. That led it to recommend a cautious approach. I assume that the committee is continuing that advice on the basis of that same philosophy.

I take the point the noble Lord made that it is difficult to attach facts and figures to this measure but does he accept the committee’s assessment of its impact? I would be interested to know whether he can put any figure at all on the likely impact of extending the measure by a further two years. He will know that the Merits Committee rather took the Government to task as regards the laying of the regulations and made the point that they have had rather a long time to consider the extension but, by leaving it to the last moment, it will have to be put in place. In a sense we are legitimising that through the current process. The Merits Committee would have preferred the policy to have been agreed somewhat earlier, which would have allowed the regulations to be laid before Parliament in draft and be subject to approval by resolution of each House. Will the noble Lord comment on that? What is his response to the Merits Committee?

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, on the point about the timing of the measure, is the Minister satisfied that individuals and employers will not experience any practical problems as a result of that? I cannot quite get my head round what practical steps need to be taken. Is it the case that an application has to be made for a new accession work authorisation document and that there may be individuals—this goes to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about numbers—who might have expected that they could continue to work for the same employer in this country beyond the end of this year but will, in effect, be given a matter of a very few working days to apply for the authorisation? Perhaps it is not as few days as from now until the end of December as the regulations were made—oh no, the regulations come into force on 30 December. I am getting very confused about the dates. I suppose that the warning was there for the employers but the regulations will not be made until the day before they need to be in formal terms, but there may be practical implications for individuals caught up with this. I hope that I have made myself at least moderately clear. The Minister is nodding, so I am glad about that.

In applying the tests, which the Minister has told the Grand Committee are about both the labour market and skills, will there be any changes from those that have been applied? My other question was about other EU member states. The Minister told us what some states are doing, so are we to understand that, in effect, the other member states are all maintaining their own status quo apart from Spain, which is reimposing restrictions, so that there is no other change across the European Union? The point has already been made that this cannot be looked at in isolation.

Police: Officer Numbers

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Tuesday 13th December 2011 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many police officers are currently employed by police forces in England and Wales and how many were employed in May 2010.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, police personnel data are collected on a financial year cycle. Published statistics show that there were 139,110 full-time equivalent police officers in England and Wales as at 31 March 2011. This compares with 143,734 as at March 2010.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. He will be aware that police authority grants for the next financial year show a £700 million cut in real terms, which is part of the 20 per cent cut front-loaded over a four-year period. How can the Government continue to claim that these cuts are not having an impact on front-line policing when the latest statistics show a worrying rise in crime? What does the noble Lord have to say about that?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, first, I remind the noble Lord that we have a deficit and that must be tackled by seeking better value for money from every public service. That includes the police. There is no need for the noble Lord to make signs of that sort.

I accept that there has been a decline in police numbers, but there is no need to get fixated on this. At the same time, we have seen over the period that I mentioned—March 2010 to March 2011—a decline in recorded crime of 4 per cent.

Immigration

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, there are no plans to do so.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, on the economics of immigration, is the absurdity of the Government’s position not shown by what has happened in relation to the students whom he mentioned? Already, universities are reporting a downturn in the number of international students coming to this country, causing grave disadvantage to the UK. What does he say to the House when other countries have opened their doors with open arms to such students?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I am not going to take lessons from the noble Lord on the absurdity of our position when the party opposite, when in government, did absolutely nothing to control immigration—nothing whatever. It is right to control the numbers and we will continue to try to do so. It is also right to control the number of students, particularly the number of bogus students coming to bogus colleges who should not be coming in at all.

UK Border Agency: Prisoners

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Excerpts

Thursday 1st December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I do not accept that our response to that particular recommendation was lukewarm. We accepted it in part and we accept that there is a need to improve the quality of our decision-making. We also accept that it is necessary to increase the number of those whom we manage to deport, as and when their sentences end. The number of those who have not been deported has come down steadily over the past few years.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, is not the reason for the potentially muted response of the UKBA and the Government to this report because the core conclusion is that the quality of decision-making needs to be improved? The UKBA is faced with a 20 per cent cut in its budget and major new responsibilities. No wonder the Border Agency does not have that much confidence in improving the quality of the work that it is doing.