Business of the House

Lord Henley Excerpts

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goldsmith]

I am surprised. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, who I admire enormously, heard the intervention I made on the noble Lord, Lord True, which made it very clear what the position is on this amendment. It is a filibustering amendment, which is shown by the fact that the same amendment is proposed to be made three times.

[Lord Henley (Con)]

The noble and learned Lord says that the same amendment has been put down three times. As my noble friend pointed out, the amendments deal with three completely separate jurisdictions. If the noble and learned Lord opposite is not prepared to answer the various questions put by my noble friend, obviously he will have to come back to this again and again, as he has the opportunity to do when we come to the later amendments. It might actually speed up the process if the noble and learned Lord took the trouble to answer some of the points that my noble friend has made. In that case, when my noble friend gets to those later amendments, whenever that may be, he might not feel it necessary to intervene on them. It would assist the House if the noble and learned Lord gave us the views of the Opposition Front Bench on this amendment.

[Lord True]

My Lords, I had sat down. I had hoped for a response from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith. There was an attempt to move a totally unnecessary closure. In view of the failure to respond and the attempt to move a closure, which I am very grateful to the noble Lord for withdrawing, I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Judicial Independence

Lord Henley Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beith]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to promote public understanding of the rule of law and the independence of the judiciary.

[Lord Henley (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are committed to maintaining the independence of the judiciary and the rule of law. Both are vital to our future success. In particular, the Lord Chancellor is working with the judiciary and others across the justice system to encourage better public education on the role of the judiciary and how it operates. Greater understanding supports efforts to ensure a diverse and representative judiciary, helping to protect the vital role of the independent judiciary for the long term.

[Lord Beith (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that answer. Does he agree that supporters and critics of Brexit ought to unite in insisting that Governments are not above the law, and that judges, however inconvenient and open to contest on appeal their judgments sometimes are, are an essential arbiter of what the law is until Parliament decides to change it? Ought we not to be proclaiming these principles from the rooftops, in the Cabinet Office, in the classroom and even in newspaper offices?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I thought we were, and I thought my noble and learned friend Lord Keen did so only last week. I thought my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor did so very firmly in Questions in another place yesterday—I could repeat her answers to all the questions—and I will continue to do so myself.

[Lord Beecham (Lab)]

My Lords, when the right-wing press launched its unprecedented assault on the High Court judges following their judgment in the Brexit case, Members across your Lordships’ House were dismayed by the lukewarm reaction of the Prime Minister, the Lord Chancellor and the Attorney-General. Since then, the same newspapers have conducted a personalised assault on members of the Supreme Court, collectively and individually, eliciting a similarly feeble response. Why have the Government not defended the freedom and independence of the judiciary with the same much-admired vigour of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, who, despite being involved in the case on behalf of the Government, gave forceful expression to the need to respect the function of the courts and individual judges in the execution of their duty?

[Lord Henley]

My noble and learned friend did exactly that, as have other colleagues throughout the Government. They have also stressed—this is important to remember—that we are not responsible for what appears in the press, and we are not the police of the press.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords, should the higher judiciary’s integrity and independence come under renewed attack, will my noble friend encourage his senior ministerial colleagues and, in particular, the Lord Chancellor, to defend the judges with the robustness that their predecessors would have shown?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I can certainly remember one of my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor’s predecessors and his robust defence of the judiciary. But I have to make it clear that she has made a robust defence of the judiciary, and all members of the Government will continue to do so.

[The Lord Bishop of Leeds]

My Lords, will the Minister define a little further what is meant by public education, as it seems that one of the most powerful shapers of world views is what people see in the headlines of newspapers and what they see in the media, not just what is taught to them rationally, for example in schools?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I agree with the right reverend Prelate; it is very important that we listen to what is in the press. But I cannot police what is in the press. All I was saying in my original Answer is that that is part of the educative process. What Ministers say is also important. That is why I repeated what my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor said, and what my noble and learned friend Lord Keen said.

[Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (CB)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood]

Does the Minister agree that the real vice and mischief of misconceived attacks on the integrity and good faith of the judges is not the hurt that it causes the judges—judges are not there to be popular and they tend to develop pretty thick skins—but rather the fact that it undermines the public trust and confidence in the administration of justice, and it is that which damages the rule of law?

[Lord Henley]

The noble and learned Lord is quite right, and right to emphasise that judges have in themselves very thick skins—the noble and learned Lord will know this. It is also right, as I made clear in my original Answer, that we are very keen to see greater understanding of the role of the judiciary and how it operates. The Government will continue to support that.

[Lord Goldsmith]

My Lords, it is not just understanding what the judges do that matters but the confidence to which the Minister himself referred. Does he agree that as we look forward, if we do, to a post-Brexit world we will need to have utter confidence in our legal system to reassure business and to attract foreign investors, and that anything that is done now to damage that long-term future by applauding short-term political name-calling is to be regretted?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I think that I can only repeat what my noble and learned friend said earlier; we have the utmost faith in the judiciary and will continue to do so.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, do the Government agree that it is an insult to the British people to suggest that they do not understand the rule of law? Is not the truth underlying this Question that those who do not like the referendum result are trying to use the law to overturn it?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, the noble Lord is tempting me to comment on things that it would not be appropriate for me to comment on.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that I have tried twice to find out from the Government whether there is guidance as to what Ministers should do in performance of their Section 3 duty to uphold judicial independence? On the last occasion, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen of Elie, directed me to the Cabinet Manual, but it gives no guidance except a reference to judicial independence. Will the Minister ask his colleagues to give some written guidance to themselves about how they should comply with their Section 3 duty—and, in doing so, will he advise his colleagues to reject the idea in today’s Daily Mail that we should take the American practice of electing judges instead of the practice that, for example, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, very clearly instituted in the past?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I do not think that the noble Lord would expect me to comment on what appeared in the Daily Mail today, and I have no intention of doing so. But I shall note what he said about guidance to Ministers and pass it on to my right honourable friends.

[Lord Tebbit (Con)]

My Lords, it is important that we all reassert in absolute terms the integrity of the rule of law and the independence of the judiciary, but does my noble friend recollect that in the debates that ran before the abolition of capital punishment, one argument that was frequently put was that the mistakes made by the judiciary could not be rectified after an execution?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, my memory goes back quite a long way but I do not actually remember all the debates in detail on the abolition of capital punishment.

Licensing Act 2003 (Diamond Jubilee Licensing Hours) Order 2012

Lord Henley Excerpts

Monday 27th February 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Henley]

That the draft order laid before the House on 12 January be approved.

Relevant documents: 38th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 14 February.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I speak to this Motion in relation to a matter of business that the Government would like your Lordships’ House to take on Wednesday of this week—namely, consideration of Commons amendments to the Welfare Reform Bill.

During the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill we on these Benches have risen on business Motions to speak to a number of matters, including Commons financial privilege. I apologise to the House for having to do so again today, but the lack of proper opportunities to raise points of order about the business of this House is a gap in the procedure of this House. I intend to write to the chairman of the Procedure Committee, the Chairman of Committees, proposing that the committee consider this issue. It will not be a surprise to the Leader of this House that I am raising my concerns today about the ping-pong arrangements for the Welfare Reform Bill, because we discussed the matter in a telephone call on Thursday.

The Government have decided that this business should take place on Wednesday as dinner-break business. We believe that that is completely inappropriate for this Bill, which is a major piece of government legislation that affects large numbers of people in this country, especially vulnerable ones. We on this side of the House believe that welfare in this country needs reform. However, we do not believe that some of the changes put forward in the Bill are the right ones. It is precisely because we believe in welfare reform that we believe that the Bill should at all times be handled and considered properly by this House. In line with that, we do not believe that considering what the Commons wishes to put before this House should be done as a piece of dinner-time business during another major Bill. This Bill and the House deserve better.

We also object to the way in which this business is being scheduled for your Lordships’ House. This House is not like the other place, and we rightly pride ourselves on self-regulation. This House is proud, too, that in many respects we proceed by agreement and consensus. This House wants to see these points reflected in the way that business is organised here, which in turn means the smooth running of the usual channels arrangement. We have a very good relationship between the usual channels of this House.

However, the usual channels, of course, occasionally have their ups and downs. We do not believe that announcing that a stage of a Bill of this magnitude will be taken as dinner-break business should be done without the agreement of the usual channels. To make such an announcement simply by changing the forthcoming business publication makes things that much worse, especially when it happens during a week when your Lordships' House is in recess. I believe that this could be to the inconvenience of the whole House, and we do not believe that this is what the Government should be doing. Whatever the scale of the Government’s political majority in this House, we do not believe that this is the sort of behaviour that your Lordships’ House wants to see.

We on these Benches have put all these points to the Government previously, but even at this late hour we urge them to reconsider. We urge them not to take this important parliamentary stage of this important Bill as dinner-break business on Wednesday, but to allow the matter to be considered by the House properly and in full. We urge the Government to reflect on this and to think again.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Lord Henley Excerpts

Wednesday 26th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goldsmith]

My Lords, I was going to support this amendment even before hearing the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, but his point, which I had not considered before, is one that the Minister really ought to consider. Speaking from experience of having to deal with inquiries and judicial review against government, the fact is that if you do not provide any form of outlet for local opinion and for people who are unhappy about decisions that are being taken, they will look for other ways. The legal profession is sufficiently innovative and able, as the noble and learned Lord knows, to find ways of doing it if we do not provide it. That is an enormously important point.

I would have supported the amendment in any event on the basis of the effect on the population and on localism. He and I have heard much about that in our debates, and rightly so. I look across to the noble Lord, Lord Rennard. We come from the same city of Liverpool, where localism for his party might have been born. Certainly I saw it in operation there. It is therefore surprising to see that a critical part of that—the ability of local people to say what they think about this issue—is being removed entirely. Is it not plain, as my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer said, that the real reason the Government are doing this is not because they think it will give more power to the people, which is what their programme is about, but because they are worried about delay? However, my noble and learned friend’s amendment deals with that. If the Government think that they can tighten it a little more but accept the principle, no doubt they can say so.

The really important point is this, and I support the noble and learned Lord in saying it: do not remove all opportunity to have a form of local inquiry that enables people not only to say what they think, but often to provide information and advice that, when it is heard by those who are making the final decision about boundaries, makes a difference. Therefore, I very much hope that the noble and learned Lord will be positive about this amendment. If he tinkers with it and brings back slightly different time limits, those on the Front Bench on this side will no doubt consider those carefully. However, the principle is important.

[Lord Henley]

Oh, come on.

[Lord Goldsmith]

I really must object to that comment from the noble Lord, Lord Henley, who, as far as I can see, has been in the Chamber for only the past five minutes. I have been speaking for less than that. That really was an unhelpful comment. He should know better than that.