Health and Social Care Bill
Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts(12 years, 11 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, we have already debated to some extent the way in which HealthWatch England might operate. However, this group of amendments returns not just to that issue, but to a number of other important issues which go to the core of the extent to which HealthWatch England is genuinely going to be an effective organisation. I give Ministers and the Government the benefit of the doubt on this—that that is something that they want to see happen. Therefore, the way in which HealthWatch England is established, the way in which it functions and the powers that it has are going to be critical to whether or not this body will simply join the long list of organisations that have been set up over the years to represent patients’ interests and have then been dismembered after a short period, or in some cases a slightly longer period, because they are not seen to be effective. If the Government are genuine about putting patients at the heart of the new NHS, then they need to ensure that HealthWatch England and healthwatch organisations are effective.
My noble friend Lord Warner, slightly unusually, pulled his punches. He talked about it perhaps being a major mistake to host HealthWatch England within the CQC. I have to say there is a danger that this could be a disaster. It is a disaster because of the sustained attacks that the CQC is currently undergoing, which seem to emanate in some instances from Government and Ministers who clearly are not satisfied with the direction of travel. There are clearly concerns that this is an organisation which is being asked and expected to do far too much at the moment. To add this additional responsibility is not necessarily helpful.
I can understand that it is important that HealthWatch England relates effectively to the Care Quality Commission: that is one of the organisations it must relate closely to. But it must also relate closely to the NHS Commissioning Board. It must also relate properly, under certain circumstances, to Monitor. Simply saying that the relationship with the CQC is paramount does not necessarily make an enormous degree of sense.
My noble friend Lord Warner made a specific point. If the motivation for hosting HealthWatch England within some other national organisation is to save money—I understand that it may not be the prime motivation but it is a concern in all this—then there are plenty of other ways of achieving those savings in terms of back-office functions. Those functions can be provided by agency agreements; you can have organisations which are in the same building and able to share some of the physical facilities and so on. It does not necessarily require that the organisation sits as an integral sub-committee within or as part of the organisation concerned. You can do it in other ways; you can achieve those savings in other ways.
However, if you place HealthWatch England in the Care Quality Commission, or for that matter in the NHS Commissioning Board or any of the others, you are in danger of there being either a real or perceived conflict of interest. It may well be the case that HealthWatch England will, on occasions, be asking the Care Quality Commission to do certain things. It may well be the case that there will be, on occasions, circumstances in which HealthWatch England will be saying that the Care Quality Commission has failed to do certain things. That is not a happy situation; nor is it one that is likely to engender the trust of the public if they are seen as being part of the same organisation. That is the principle which underpins some of these amendments.
There is then the question of the extent to which HealthWatch England is seen as being a creature of either the CQC or Government. That then relates to how the ruling body of HealthWatch England—the committee, if it is a sub-committee of the CQC—is appointed. That is why one of the amendments to which I have my name, Amendment 307, specifically refers to the committee of HealthWatch England being,
“elected from local Healthwatch organisations”.
It is a principle of accountability; it is a principle of ownership; it is a principle of safeguarding that independent viewpoint and voice. That is why that is necessary and that is why Amendment 307 in this group is so important.
We also have a series of amendments, Amendments 308, 309, 312, 313, 315 and 316, which try to make sure that it is absolutely explicit that HealthWatch England's role is not just to provide information or advice but, on occasions, to make recommendations to the bodies concerned. It may be a recommendation to the CQC or to the other major national organisations. This group of amendments specifies that that is part of its functioning. It also makes it clear that there should be proper responses to those recommendations from the bodies to whom they are directed. Again, if the Government are serious about making HealthWatch England effective and about having a genuine and clear voice of the users of the NHS and social care services, surely placing in the Bill the power to make recommendations is central to that.
Amendment 314, to which I have also put my name, essentially requires HealthWatch England to provide the CQC with information and advice on the views of patients and the public, and of local healthwatch organisations. It is not a question of it being a discretionary responsibility but a clear responsibility—it “must” rather than it “may”. I know that, in this Committee or in your Lordships’ House more generally, we sometimes get into esoteric discussions about the relative force of “must”, “shall”, “may”, and so on and so forth. I am quite clear that must is stronger than may. That is to avoid a situation where the national body fails to take into account the views and opinions being expressed locally. It is saying that this is an obligation on the organisation to reflect that. Again, if you want to see an independent voice for patients at national level, it must be clear that that body is obligated to put forward the views of patients, the public and local healthwatch organisations.
Amendment 317 also goes to the heart of the relationship between HealthWatch England and local healthwatch organisations. It is a very simple expectation, which I am surprised was not included in the Bill already. HealthWatch England must send a copy of any report it produces to all local healthwatch organisations. This is about the way in which local healthwatch organisations relate to their national body. I speak as someone who ran a national body for patients for a number of years. I know that we would have had an extremely difficult time with our member community health councils had we been making advice and recommendations at a national level without keeping the local organisations, on whose advice those recommendations were based, fully informed of what we were saying and doing. The Bill sets out some of the people who should receive the reports produced by HealthWatch England, but fails to mention local healthwatch organisations. It is a simple change. I am sure it was a mere error in drafting and that the Minister will be able to accept Amendment 317 without wasting time at Report on the issue.
Amendment 318 relates to the relationship between the Secretary of State and HealthWatch England. Clearly, there is a nagging concern in the Department of Health that HealthWatch England may not do all that the Government are hoping, which it certainly will not be able to do unless they make some of the changes being suggested in this group of amendments. However, the Secretary of State has taken upon himself the power to give directions to HealthWatch England. Personally, I do not have a problem with that. I accept that Secretaries of State like to have that in respect of all sorts of organisations. However, before making those directions, which the Secretary of State should not make lightly, Amendment 318 provides that the Secretary of State,
“shall consult local Healthwatch organisations”.
If the Secretary of State were to give a direction on the basis that it was failing to discharge its functions, that should be in the light of the knowledge that local healthwatch organisations, to which HealthWatch England should be responsible and is, in part at least, servicing and supporting, have been properly consulted.
I think that the amendments are entirely modest, sensible and ones that the Government can accept without further problem. They are integral to ensuring that HealthWatch England is the proper voice of the users, patients and those who depend on the NHS.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, this has been another excellent debate. We have returned to the topic of HealthWatch, which we also discussed on 22 November. I listened very carefully to the views expressed in that debate. It seemed that there was a consensus, as there has been again today, about the need to have the patient voice very much at the heart of the NHS. There was agreement then, as I think there is today, that the Bill moves us forward in making sure that the patient voice is at the heart of the NHS. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for his comments in this regard.
However, I fully recognise that there are significant concerns about the way in which the Government are taking forward these proposals. When we discussed this previously, I made a commitment to continue discussing these issues. We have had subsequent meetings, which some noble Lords have attended; I thank them for their input. I found those meetings extremely constructive. I also attended the meeting between the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and the national association.
Our previous debate focused on the independence of HealthWatch England, which will be a statutory committee of the CQC. I understand that this risks, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, said, dangerously compromising the independence that I talked about as being so important. Let me be clear why we are proposing this arrangement. There is a reason why, at present, there is no national statutory organisation to champion the patient voice. The last body, to which noble Lords made reference—the Commission for Patient and Public Involvement in Health—was abolished for being ineffective and lacking influence as well as being too expensive and too centralising. To quote from the Health Select Committee’s 2007 report into Patient and Public Involvement in the NHS:
“The evidence we received was overwhelmingly critical of the Commission”.
The noble Lord, Lord Warner, said that the Government should set up an authoritative, stand-alone body, and others have made similar points. This is, however, precisely the point. While I respect the view of the noble Lord, the Government have not been convinced that it would be possible to have such an authoritative stand-alone body in the form that they suggest. The previous Government’s attempt to do this with the commission did not work out well, as noble Lords know. The abolition of the commission was announced five months after it started work. It limped on for a further three years, chewing up £100 million and was universally criticised.
Lord Harris of Haringey
Bandying around figures—“it chewed up £100 million”—gives a completely misleading impression. Could she tell us what proportion of that £100 million was the administrative cost of the commission, as opposed to the provision of patient and public involvement forums in every part of the country? The figure of £100 million is totally misleading.
Baroness Northover
I suggest that the noble Lord talks to his noble friend Lady Pitkeathley about some of the details.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I suggest that if you use a figure like £100 million, which was not the figure used by the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, you need to explain that that includes the running of the public and patient involvement forums. It is not the cost of the administration of the national body itself.
Baroness Northover
The organisation used up £100 million. There were criticisms from the local organisations that they were not getting the money they needed, so there was widespread criticism. There was criticism at a national level within the NHS and, in particular and importantly, the local organisations did not feel that it was acting in the way they needed it to, or feeding through to them the resources they needed to do what they felt was appropriate.
Lord Harris of Haringey
One of the failings of the commission was that it did not have a relationship with local public and patient involvement. The purpose of the amendment which talks about direct election would be to obviate that problem and provide a constraint in terms of whether or not there were going to be overly centralised administrative costs, because the body itself would be accountable to the local bodies that would be the recipient of most of them. My concern and my frank irritation with the commission—which I had no part in at the time—was the suggestion that all the £100 million was somehow used by the central administration. That was not the case.
One of the failings of the commission was that it was not accountable and did not have a proper direct relationship with local public and patient involvement. That was a fault both of the way it was constructed in terms of the legislation, for which the Labour Government of the time must take responsibility, and of the way in which the commission chose to work, with the support of the Department of Health at that stage.
Lord Harris of Haringey
The noble Baroness made a very important point just now. She said explicitly that HealthWatch England could and should be a campaigning organisation, although it would be a sub-committee of the CQC. This is irrespective of the debate about where it is located. I think that the principle of creating a national patient organisation as a campaigning organisation on behalf of patients is extremely important. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for making that commitment on behalf of the Government.
Baroness Northover
HealthWatch England will represent the voice of the patients. It will publish on that; it will advise on that; to take up a point raised under one of the earlier amendments, it will no doubt make recommendations within the areas of its advice. It has the obligation to make those recommendations to various organisations within the NHS. Various organisations, including the CQC, have the responsibility to respond to that. All those obligations will flag up problems, so I do not see that I have made a startling admission. I would have thought that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, would know that transparency—publishing information—was the best way forward.
However, I agree with many noble Lords that this has been rather a patchy area. We have to try to give greater strength to these organisations both locally and nationally. Much of that is not based on their structures, because all sorts of structures have been tried, but we are trying to take them further forward.
Baroness Northover
I am sure that it could. If it felt that it was not managing to persuade the CQC or some other part of the NHS to do what it considered to be in the best interests of patients, then I am sure it would go to greater lengths to ensure that it got its message across. It is very important that we have a louder patient voice within the NHS, and this is one means of seeking to achieve that.
I return to some of the amendments that noble Lords have flagged up. This is a very important debate. I think we agree on where we wish to head and what we are seeking to achieve, but I hear noble Lords’ concerns about whether this is the right way of going about it. Noble Lords talk about an independent organisation and so on but that route was tried. This is another route for trying to make sure that there is a body close to an organisation which itself must have a major role in driving up quality. The synergies there are very important.
The question was raised of how local healthwatch is going to influence HealthWatch England. I heard what the noble Lord, Lord Harris, said about elections to HealthWatch England from local healthwatch. Clearly, as my noble friend Lady Cumberlege said, a great deal will depend on who is on these organisations nationally and locally, and it will be necessary to ensure that they are as strong as possible. The Secretary of State will determine how the membership is comprised through regulations and we will be discussing with a wide range of stakeholders the contents of those regulations. I can confirm that we will discuss the suggestions put forward by noble Lords. We had from the noble Lord, Lord Harris, an emphasis on election and a concern about that route from the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley. Both noble Lords might wish to feed in to how those regulations are taken forward so that we can best comprise HealthWatch England and local healthwatch.
Lord Harris of Haringey
Can the Minister indicate the timetable for consultation on the content of those regulations? Those of us who wish to see an election process in the Bill will need to know sooner rather than later whether that is the way in which the Government’s thinking is going. When is that consultation going to take place and when is it likely to conclude?
Baroness Northover
In the meeting that I was in yesterday with NALM this was an issue. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, is probably aware of that. No? That was one of the issues—perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Warner, referred to it—that did come up. The consultation will be early next year. Given that we are almost in next year, that is pretty soon.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, wanted to make sure that HealthWatch England’s annual report was shared with local healthwatch. While we do not feel that that is a matter for the Bill, the annual report must be published. It is important that that information is made widely available. I am sure that the noble Lord’s suggestion will be noted by HealthWatch England and local healthwatch as the information between the two must go back and forth, in both directions.
Lord Harris of Haringey
The Bill does not refer just to the annual report. It refers to all reports.
Baroness Northover
It is clearly important that the information goes back and forth between the local and national organisations.
If HealthWatch England were significantly failing in its duties, the Secretary of State has powers to intervene. An amendment addressed whether the Secretary of State should consult local healthwatch. This was on the assumption that HealthWatch England was in effect failing local healthwatch. While the Secretary of State should not be bound into a rigid consultation—something else entirely could be in question here—we would fully expect him to seek the views of others where appropriate in coming to a decision to intervene. I hope that that will reassure noble Lords.
My noble friend Lady Jolly talked about local healthwatch needing to look widely at all groups of patients, including those with rare diseases and so on. She is right. We will be coming on to other amendments where we look at this a bit more. LINks and its predecessors recognise that they have not had as wide a coverage as they would like or been as representative of their communities as they would need to be. This concerns us. The noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, referred to it briefly in relation to whether local healthwatch should elect to HealthWatch England. We are seeking to learn from this. We want to try to make sure that local healthwatch has as broad a spread as possible. It is worth bearing in mind that it has a place on the board of the health and well-being boards and so there will be information feeding back to local healthwatch from the others on the health and well-being boards and from local healthwatch into the health and well-being boards. We will come on to local healthwatch in relation to local authorities, but there is synergy there too.
While I feel that the Bill provides safeguards for the independence of HealthWatch England within CQC, I would like to repeat my commitment that we are prepared to listen to further views. It is very clear that we are all trying to head in the same direction. There is a variety of views about how best to do this. We would welcome noble Lords’ continued input as we take this further forward. In the mean time, I thank noble Lords for flagging up these issues. I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I will speak to the seven amendments in my name in this group, Amendments 319, 321, 322, 323, 325, 326 and 327. The noble Lord, Lord Rix, described this group as something of a Christmas stocking; I have to say that even my seven amendments do not have a common theme. They are on a variety of topics, ranging from some that simply correct what I assume are drafting errors in the Bill to others that raise rather more fundamental issues along the lines of the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege.
Amendment 327 deals with what is, I think, a drafting error. Unless I have misinterpreted the interlaying Acts that are being subsequently amended, the Bill leaves a reference to primary care trusts in the base Act. Presumably the assumption is that the commissioning groups will take on those functions and should be expected to respond to the local issues raised by local healthwatch organisations. I am sure that is simply a drafting arrangement.
Amendment 323 would slightly tighten the wording on how independent advocacy is organised and says that the provision should be appropriate to the needs of those for whom that provision is being made available. I am sure that the Government will have no problem with that. It makes sure that advocacy arrangements recognise the very different nature of the problems and the client groups who will raise them.
Amendment 321 puts into the Bill a requirement that arrangements be made to enable members of local healthwatch organisations to have indemnity cover against the risk that a claim may arise from their duties. I am doing the Government a favour by highlighting this at this stage. I certainly recall, from the time of my involvement in community health councils, and in another sector prior to that—the work of electricity consultative groups for a completely different government department—that the same issue arose. I refer to the indemnity or protection that is there for people who are carrying out public duties if they are involved in an accident and a claim is made against them for it. What we will have—I am sure it will be in the Minister’s brief—is some vague statement about Treasury indemnity.
The problem for individuals in this position is that it is not clear what such indemnity will cover and how they will be able to access it if, for example, they are involved in an accident or an incident during their work as a member of a local healthwatch organisation. I would advise—I am trying, as ever, to be helpful to the Government—that this should be sorted out now rather than waiting to get into a tangle about it. I remember spending many happy years, when I was Director of the Association of Community Health Councils, trying to get a definition that would satisfy local CHC members that they were protected. Otherwise, the answer goes back that you should claim on your own insurance policies; yet those insurance policies often exclude people who are carrying out work—even voluntary work—or similar duties. Acting on behalf of a local healthwatch organisation will almost certainly be excluded by the individual members’ insurance policies. My experience on CHCs and in other organisations is that this is a constant pressure and a constant concern. There should be something explicit in the Bill to provide a degree of reassurance to people who are undertaking these activities on behalf of their communities.
Amendment 319 relates to the membership of local healthwatch organisations and is put forward today as a probing amendment. I hope the noble Baroness will give us details of how it is envisaged that local healthwatch members will emerge in that role. The question of how legitimate local healthwatch organisations will be—how representative they will be—depends critically on the precise arrangements by which people end up as members of the organisations. The previous Government’s proposals in respect of LINks, which I never fully understood, left it in a state of limbo and people were, essentially, self-appointed as members of LINks. There must be a degree of transparency and clarity in the process by which people end up as members of local healthwatch organisations. The proposal here is that there should be some system of election. Often, although this was not exclusively the case, the most effective members of local community health councils were those who were elected by local voluntary organisations in the areas concerned. They were often the people with the most detailed, personal knowledge of the services they were monitoring. They often had a constituency they could draw back into for information and support for the work they were doing. Above all, they had the added legitimacy of having been chosen for that role by other local voluntary organisations.
I am not suggesting that as a model that should necessarily be adopted. What I am saying is that the clarity it gave those individuals was very helpful. Other members were appointed directly by the local councils for the area. Again, that gave clarity about who they were representing and what their legitimacy was. Some were appointed by regional health authorities, though this changed every time the health service was reorganised, which was every two or three years. That is something that does not change, even now, and I am sure we will be back here in two or three years unpicking whatever finally emerges from the sausage machine of legislation that we are processing now.
It is going to be critical to have a clear process by which local healthwatch organisation members are appointed. It is also important that they have legitimacy. Otherwise the organisations to which they relate will say, “You are not representative. You are self-selecting” or “You do not represent the communities you purport to represent”. Clarity about the appointments process is important. Some system of election would be valuable, but it would be helpful if the noble Baroness could tell us today exactly what is envisaged. We certainly need to know that before we proceed further with the Bill.
The orange in the Christmas stocking is the relationship between the local authorities and local healthwatch organisations. I have tabled Amendment 322, which refers to local healthwatch organisations not being subservient to the body that is responsible for their establishment. That goes to the core of the issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, about the extent to which local healthwatch organisations can be effectively under the control of local authorities.
I know that we will be assured that local healthwatch organisations will be independent and have all this additional legitimacy because they will know that local authorities have provided them with support, and that that is why the proposed structure is being adopted. However, that model will not necessarily work. I speak as someone who was leader of a local authority for 12 years and I know how decisions are made. In particular, I know how decisions are made at times of financial stringency. Unless the resources for these local organisations are guaranteed in some way, they will be vulnerable—not necessarily because they are saying unhelpful things but simply because the local healthwatch organisation will not be seen as a core activity of the local authority at a time of stringent finances and resources. That is why this issue needs to be addressed head on.
There is a problem of potential conflict of interest. Local authorities are responsible for providing certain types of social care. They are responsible for commissioning and providing that care. They will have a responsibility with others through the local health and well-being boards. There is a danger that local healthwatch organisations will be seen as being conflicted because they are subordinate to the local authorities in their area.
There are two simple ways for the Government to solve this problem, both of which I know they are not currently minded to consider. One model is a separate structure that provides the funding and resourcing for local healthwatch organisations; and that would flow back to HealthWatch England. The other model is to ring-fence the resources that are passed through to local authorities for this purpose. I know that Her Majesty’s Treasury is always against ring-fencing and, indeed, the Local Government Association, of which I have the honour to be a vice-president, always argues against the ring-fencing of resources because it is always better for local authorities to make their own determinations. However, this is not about determining local needs. This is about providing something for the local community on behalf of another government department.
The Department of Health has, no doubt, fought a valiant battle with the Treasury to secure the resources for HealthWatch and the Treasury is passing that money through the Department for Communities and Local Government down to local authorities. There is no ring-fencing. The reality is that local authorities will not be able to say to the Treasury at the next comprehensive spending round how those resources have been used. They will not even be able to demonstrate that those resources have been used for the purposes for which they were given, and they will lose the battle for the continuation of that funding. If there is a ring-fenced structure, you will ensure that the resources are there for local healthwatch organisations. There may then be a question about how effectively those local organisations operate, but at least the resources will be clear and the local authority will be accountable for how it has used that money explicitly, rather than for whether or not it has used the money for that or for other purposes.
Unless that issue is addressed, there will be not only perceptions of conflicts of interest but the problem that local healthwatch organisations may, in time, be starved of resources. This is not an idle concern. We have all received the correspondence from LINks, talking about the budget cuts that they have faced in the current financial year. We can expect that to continue. If the Government are serious about having vibrant and effective local healthwatch organisations, they have also to solve the resourcing question and the perceived conflict of interest between the local authority and local healthwatch organisations.
We heard much in our earlier debates about the synergies and wonderful effects that talking in corridors would have within the CQC. I thought at one point that the noble Baroness was going to talk about talking in the toilets about decisions and how you infuse ideas from one organisation to another if they are co-located. That will not be the case with local authorities and local healthwatch. You will not get that same connection. The mere fact of being in the same organisation will not matter because they will not be physically located with the people who are making the decisions about social care; they will probably be in an outward-facing office, meeting the public. It will be an outpost of the local authority. There will not be that informal interchange which we were told would be so valuable if Healthwatch England was placed within CQC. The issue is how you make these organisations effective. That will require independent resources and it will require that the question of conflict of interest is dealt with.
Viscount Tenby
My Lords, very briefly, I support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Rix. He has clearly outlined the rationale behind the amendment; accordingly, I do not intend to keep the House long—sighs of relief all round, I should think—although, like my noble friend, I should declare an interest. Until last Wednesday, I was chairman of a residential home for those with learning disabilities.
I think we are aware that the complaints process against the NHS can be extremely complex and challenging for those involved. That nearly always coincides with a period of some personal distress. Indeed, the very inclusion of Clause 182 indicates that the Government, to their great credit, are aware of that factor. However, there is a danger that the provision is not sufficiently explicit. My noble friend has highlighted the potential for advocacy support to stop before a conclusion has been reached. I share his concern, and add that the amendment safeguards against the freedom given to a local authority to define what it deems to be “appropriate arrangements” for the provision of independent advocacy services.
The critical point is that, at a time when local authority budgets are particularly stretched, to expect them to provide additional resources for advocacy support could result in the needs of people being sacrificed in favour of councils balancing their books. We all understand that that goes on. In other words, the level of advocacy support offered might be dictated by available funds and, accordingly, “appropriate arrangements” might be taken as being what is appropriate for the council to offer.
That detracts from what I assume is the object of making advocacy support available: to benefit the individual. The ability for people—often in mourning and in some distress—to seek justice should surely seek precedence over what is convenient to the local authority. By explicitly removing any upper limit on the length and type of advocacy, the amendment sends a strong message to councils that the individual must be the priority in this situation. It removes the excuse that a council might have not to provide the adequate level of advocacy support required by those who need it; and instead gives the individual the power to challenge any decision they feel is unjust on the basis that their advocacy needs are greater than the support proposed.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, again, we have had a very impressive and wide-ranging debate. It links in with the earlier debate on this area, as well as with our discussion the other day.
The noble Lord, Lord Low, made a very strong point when he talked about the need for confidentiality. I hope I can reassure him that HealthWatch England will be subject to the provisions of the Data Protection Act and other applicable law. However, these are complex matters, involving a number of interlocking pieces of legislation and other issues. As a result, I hope that the noble Lord will allow me to write to him with full details of how we see these provisions working. However, I hope that he will be reassured about the overarching effect of the Data Protection Act. He made some very telling and important points.
Our aim is for local healthwatch organisations to become an integral part of the commissioning of local health and social care services. They will build on the strengths of the existing Local Involvement Networks and, we hope, address their weaknesses. I have listened to the concerns that various noble Lords have expressed about independence, given local healthwatch organisations’ contractual relationships with local authorities. I hope I can reassure noble Lords that local healthwatch organisations will be very firmly in the lead in determining their own work programmes and local priorities. Local authorities, for example, cannot arbitrarily veto a local healthwatch organisation’s work plan or stop a local healthwatch organisation providing feedback or recommendations to HealthWatch England, nor can they suppress local healthwatch organisations’ reports with which they disagree. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, is not in his place, as no doubt he would be hopping up and down challenging me on these matters. It is extremely important that local healthwatch organisations are effective in this way: we have made the provision that we have. Nor can local authorities starve local healthwatch organisations of funds, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, implies. Local healthwatch organisations must have sufficient resources to fulfil their statutory functions. Those are laid down and they have to deliver on that.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I thank the noble Baroness for giving way. The problem with not ring-fencing funds and simply relying on the statutory requirement is that there are many ways of interpreting a statutory obligation. For example, there is an obligation on local healthwatch organisations to provide information to the public. You can provide information at various levels. At one extreme, this could be leaflets to every household, or it could be telephone helplines. It could be all sorts of things—or it could simply be to say that the information manual has been placed in the local library. If the local healthwatch organisation does that, it has fulfilled its statutory obligation in providing information to the community. I am assuming that Ministers do not want that to be the scale of the provision, but simply saying that you have met your statutory obligation is not a sufficient safeguard to provide £60 million-worth of services, if that is the sum of money being made available to local healthwatch organisations.
Baroness Northover
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, made exactly this point at the meeting that we had the other day with my noble friend Lord Howe, who I thought countered his points extremely effectively. However, I realise that is now almost 6 pm and I know that noble friends have other appointments; maybe we would otherwise carry on until Christmas. We take on board what the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has said. I am sure that he takes on board the counterpoints from my noble friend Lord Howe, but we will continue to discuss how best to ensure that local healthwatch organisations are effective in the way that we need them to be.
Some of the amendments of my noble friend Lady Cumberlege would increase the role of the Secretary of State in relation to local healthwatch organisations. Though we understand the intent behind the amendments, we do not feel that that is quite the way to go. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the need to keep the issue of local healthwatch organisations’ independence under review and we are working closely with stakeholders to look at how best we can support that independence at local level.
My noble friend made a range of proposals which were extremely interesting and we will take those back, along with other noble Lords’ suggestions. We are keen that local healthwatch organisations have the flexibility to work with and for their local communities. I am aware of the concern expressed by a number of stakeholders that the Bill does not contain sufficient flexibility. I can confirm that we also want to make sure that the process of getting local healthwatch organisations started is as efficient as possible. We want to assist in that and again we discussed this with stakeholders yesterday. We would not want to see local healthwatch’s ability to get on with its valuable role slowed down.
My noble friend suggested that local healthwatch organisations should have a stronger role in relation to CCGs’ commissioning plans. I sympathise with the sentiment behind this amendment and with other proposals to try to make sure that the voice of the patient is heard. However, this would place a further statutory function on local healthwatch organisations, and it might be unnecessarily prescriptive. There are, of course, arrangements in place in the Bill for local healthwatch organisations to feed their concerns to HealthWatch England, and HealthWatch England can also provide the NHS Commissioning Board with information and advice on the views of local healthwatch organisations on the standard of healthcare. Were a local healthwatch organisation to have concerns that a clinical commissioning group had not taken proper account of its views in commissioning plans, they could be raised by this route. However, this is an important issue, and I will take it away to consider it further.
Lord Harris of Haringey
Will the Minister clarify whether she is seriously suggesting that rather than having a route going direct from a local healthwatch organisation to a clinical commissioning group, it is better to have a route that goes from the local healthwatch organisations to HealthWatch England—I do not know whether we would include CQC in that process—then through the national Commissioning Board and then back down to—
Baroness Northover
I did not put that clearly enough. Local healthwatch organisations will be feeding into clinical commissioning groups. That is already apparent. They have all sorts of ways, not least through the health and well-being boards, to make sure that the needs of the community are clearly expressed so that commissioning is as appropriate as possible. Where that is not being properly listened to, and therefore serious issues need to be addressed, there are other ways of ensuring that actions can be taken.
However, all these groups need to be talking to each other. I hope very much that they will. One of the reasons for local healthwatch organisations to have the association with local authorities is that local authorities have responsibility for so many areas that also affect the health of the population. They will have new responsibilities in public health as well. All this needs to link up to make sure that the quality of health is improved. This is part of that arrangement. We are looking at it locally and nationally. However, I will take back the suggestions that my noble friend Lady Cumberlege made. We want to make sure that this system works effectively without being overly prescriptive.
I agree that indemnity is a fundamental issue. It is one to which the Government have given significant consideration. We have concluded that it is most appropriate for it to feature in local contractual arrangements rather than in primary legislation that may lack flexibility.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, is right that the system by which people serve on local healthwatch organisations needs to be transparent—all this needs to be transparent. I heard what he said in that regard, and I will feed it into the discussions that are going on at the moment.
On some matters it is probably best, if I need to follow up, that I do so in writing, as I am acutely aware that my noble friend Lord Howe and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, have another engagement this evening, and we must release them.
I turn to NHS complaints advocacy. Clause 182 has the effect of transferring a duty to commission independent advocacy services for NHS complaints from the Secretary of State to local authorities. The principle behind advocacy will remain unchanged: it is the provision of appropriate support to people who wish to make a complaint about the NHS to enable them to make their own decisions. We propose that commissioning of advocacy shifts from the Secretary of State to local authorities to best meet local needs.
I note the wonderful Amendment 324, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Rix and Lord Wigley, which seeks to ensure that advocacy will be provided without limits on the length or type of support. I commend them for their ambition but it would not be appropriate to put that limit in the Bill. I am sure they understand that but we take what they say about the importance of advocacy and commend them for their strong advocacy of advocacy.
I realise that all these areas are of great concern to noble Lords. This may be just one part of the Bill but in many ways it is the heart of the Bill, which is about patients and how best you ensure that patients’ experience translates into an improvement in quality in practice. Other noble Lords have grappled with this before. The previous Government did and Governments before that. We are trying to take this further forward, both in terms of the national and local arrangements. We hear what people say in response to the proposals but I hope that in the mean time the noble Lord will not press his amendment.
Health and Social Care Bill
Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts(12 years, 12 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
My Lords, I start by adding my support for the amendments that change the duty to reduce inequalities by strengthening the wording from having “regard to the need” to reduce such inequalities to “acting with a view” to reducing such inequalities. Those are Amendments 112 and 113, in relation to the board, and Amendments 186 and 187 in relation to clinical commissioning groups. I do not want to add a great deal to what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said in that regard, except merely to observe that the commitment to reducing health inequalities in the Bill is one of its great advantages and will be one of the great advantages and achievements of the legislation, if it is passed. I suggest that saying it loud and clear and imposing the stronger duty on the board and the Secretary of State would be the better way to achieve it.
I want to address the other amendments to which I have put my name, Amendments 153ZZA and 153ZZB, which concern the permitted disclosures of information by the board in proposed new Section 13Z2 on page 24 of the Bill. It is important to observe that the starting point for this clause is proposed new subsection (2):
“This provision has effect notwithstanding any rule of common law which would otherwise prohibit or restrict the disclosure”.
This proposed new subsection is about permitting disclosures by the board of information whose disclosure would otherwise be unlawful, which from the wording I take to include any disclosures that would be actionable either in tort or in contract. My concern is about how far this provision would sanction a breach of confidentiality owed to patients or others.
Most of the examples or circumstances outlined in proposed new subsection (1) are anodyne or obviously called for. The first, for instance, is that the information is already in the public domain; the second is where the disclosure has to be made pursuant to regulations, and so forth. However, the amendments are concerned with two sets of circumstances that are, I would suggest, entirely too wide. The first is under paragraph (d), where the suggestion is that disclosure should be permitted where,
“the disclosure is necessary or expedient for the purposes of protecting the welfare of any individual”.
As drafted, paragraph (d) is without regard to the wishes of the individual concerned or, in the case of an individual suffering from incapacity, to that individual’s care. I would suggest that that smacks of a certain arrogance that ignores the rights of the individual to choose whether information about him or her is released by the board. It is for that reason that our amendment suggests that the words,
“and is made with the agreement of that individual or of a person having legal responsibility for that individual’s care”,
should be placed as a qualification to the unfettered right to disclose based on the board’s view of what is,
“necessary or expedient for the purposes of protecting the welfare of”
that individual.
The second area where we say that the disclosure provision is far too wide is under paragraph (f), which suggests that disclosure should be permitted where,
“the disclosure is made for the purpose of facilitating the exercise of any of the Board’s functions”.
That permissive subsection would give the board an overall right to disclose any information it chose, notwithstanding that it was otherwise unlawful, on the basis that it was,
“made for the purpose of facilitating the exercise of any of the Board’s functions”.
It does not even go so far as to say that it would have to be necessary for the exercise of those functions. In the view of those of us who have put our names to this amendment, those lines should go. They are an unwarranted intrusion into the confidentiality of the individual, and they give far too wide a discretion to disclose information whose disclosure would otherwise be unlawful.
Lord Harris of Haringey
This is an extraordinarily wide group of amendments—I think there are 27 in this group. I sympathise—well, almost sympathise—with the Minister in terms of how he will respond to them.
I wish to comment on just three of the amendments. The first is Amendment 144, which the noble Lord, Lord Patel, has just spoken to, about the importance of sharing information collected on the safety of services provided by the health service. Particularly in the context of what I think we will see as a fragmentation of the service, where a pattern becomes apparent that suggests that particular practices or processes challenge patient safety, it is important that that information is disseminated.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
If the Minister were inclined to concede our amendment, subject to a proviso dealing with emergencies of the sort that the noble Lord has suggested might be important, would that meet his objection to the amendment?
Lord Harris of Haringey
No, the reason being that it may not be an emergency situation; it may be that an individual is being passed from one agency to another. The point at issue is a risk and the mitigation of that risk. The risk may be that an assessment has been done suggesting that a person is at risk of suicide. They may well not commit suicide; there may well not be an emergency; or there may well be things that the receiving agency can do which will reduce that risk. However, there is no emergency so there would not be circumstances in which you could say it is in response to a particular situation; it is to avoid a situation arising. I am sure that there could be a form of words which would both deal with the concerns the noble Lord has highlighted and permit the sensible passing on of information to safeguard the right to life of that individual. I do not think Amendment 153ZZA quite deals with that point, and the Minister may want to respond to that when we get to that stage.
The final amendment I wish to speak to, very briefly, is Amendment 299C in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff. I, too, think it is extremely important that NHS services explicitly in the Bill must not use NHS business to recruit private patient business. In a context where again we will see the fragmentation of services, the arrival of all sorts of new providers and the possible blurring of distinctions between NHS provision and that provided privately by NHS practitioners, this needs to be made explicit. It is already an issue. I will cite my personal experience. The last but one time I visited my general practitioner—I think it was the first time for some five years—he declined to make the referral for secondary care I wished to have, saying that I probably had not looked after myself as well as I should have done, but then he pushed across the table a card advertising his Chinese medicine service. I thought that was extremely inappropriate—disregarding whether it was an appropriate treatment; as far as I am concerned it is non-evidence-based medicine.
Under any circumstances for there to be a blurring of the NHS responsibility of a practitioner and their private concerns seems extremely dubious. It is important it is made explicit that this is not permitted. In a previous series of exchanges the noble Earl has said it is quite clear what should happen under those circumstances. However, it does happen and what is permitted becomes increasingly confused. Even if medical practitioners are not abusing their position, or there is no blurring of those lines and everyone has been quite proper, it is perfectly feasible that patients will be confused and will not be clear as to what is happening, and that will colour future relationships they have with people providing medical services to them. It certainly coloured my relationship with that GP because on the last occasion I saw him I was extremely dubious about receiving any advice from him. I confess I referred to him as being patronising. This was perhaps inappropriate; it was certainly unwise as he was about to perform a rectal examination. None the less, it certainly coloured the relationship we had. In the interests of both patients and medical practitioners the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay of Llandaff, should be in the Bill.
Lord Warner
My Lords, I do not intend to follow that in a similar style. I support Amendment 144 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, to which I have added my name. I do not want to go over the ground covered by the noble Lord, Lord Patel, but I just wish to share with the Minister in particular and the House in general my own experience from introducing near-miss reporting in the NHS when the National Patient Safety Agency was established. In those good old days the figure was around 800,000 a year. The current figure, as my noble friend Lord Patel said, is of the order of 3,000 a day; it is on an upward incline.
The issue at stake in those days was not the principle of trying in effect to copy the airline industry and improve safety by having people come clean about near misses—some very serious, some less serious. No one disputed the merits of trying to learn from those experiences. Where everybody got a little concerned was around the making public of the information. I will not delight the House with some of the discussions that took place in Richmond House about whether the first lot of information should be made available, because who knew what the Daily Mail would do with it? Noble Lords will be pleased to know that the Daily Mail behaved in a predictable manner and ran screaming banner headlines about how near to death 800,000 people came each year.
The important point was that one was beginning to change the culture of the NHS, which knew that the information was being put in the public arena. The problem with the Bill is that it leaves to the board the decision about how to disseminate information. We as citizens would be better off putting in the Bill the specific organisations to which the information should be disseminated—which is what the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, does. I strongly support it and hope that the Minister will give it very careful consideration, and will carry on the publication and dissemination of the information on an agreed basis.
I will make a couple of remarks in response to the concerns expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, about a market in commissioning skills. I have no particular wish to promote a market in commissioning skills. However, as a former Minister responsible for the performance of primary care trusts, I say that many trusts seriously lacked commissioning skills. These were lacking particularly in areas such as collecting information, analysing it and using it to establish need and to procure services to meet those needs. We should not in the Bill do anything to limit the ability of the new clinical commissioning groups to receive and acquire the skills to enable them to do their job effectively, wherever the skills may be located. That is a very important part of introducing successful new arrangements for clinical commissioning.
I pray in aid of that approach the history of Dr Foster. The dear old NHS had been collecting data for decades but was unable to use them effectively to improve performance. It took an outsider coming in—Dr Foster—to use the information and turn it into something that was useful to the NHS in terms of improving its performance. We should not be too hung up on precisely where clinical commissioning groups get their skills from to do their job.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, this is an extremely important group of amendments, but I hope it is, by and large, an uncontroversial one. The Government say they are committed to patient involvement and patient choice. They say they want to see all decisions being taken with the patient rather than simply by professionals. These amendments all contribute to achieving those objectives. It is worth distinguishing between a number of different elements in terms of patient involvement. There is the involvement of the individual; there is the involvement of the specialist group of patients; and there is the collective involvement of patients. I hope that these amendments provide a means of addressing all three groups.
The involvement of the individual patient—specifically included in Amendment 121 and in Amendment 124, to which the noble Lord, Lord Patel, has just spoken, on access to medical records—is an example of where it is vital to write this into the Bill if you are serious about the Government’s mantra of, “No decision about me without me”. The experience is that, where patients are involved in all decisions about their medical care, better decisions are made and compliance with them by patients is far fuller than would otherwise be the case. Therefore, requiring patients to be involved in every decision affecting them is part of delivering a good and effective health system. My experience mirrors that of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, because the experience of patients’ organisations is that, where patients are given charge of their medical records, they look after them extremely carefully—often much more carefully than under the old system of trolley-loads of not dog-eaten but dog-eared files in hospitals—and are much more likely to be protected by the individuals concerned.
I have put my name to Amendments 123, 192 and 205, which talk about the involvement of healthwatch organisations. Amendment 123 places a duty on the board to promote the involvement of local healthwatch, and it is important that the board sets the tone for the NHS in the way in which healthwatch organisations are expected to be involved at every level. It needs to come from that level. Amendments 192 and 205 relate to the duties of clinical commissioning groups. There is a gap in the Bill, because it seems to be implied that commissioning groups will involve patients and healthwatch organisations, but I am not sure that that is stated explicitly, which is why those amendments are so important.
However, the reason why it is helpful to engage healthwatch at every level within the NHS is the support function that local healthwatch organisations and HealthWatch England will provide to the three levels of patient involvement that, as I have stated, are so important. That is because, as local healthwatch organisations and HealthWatch England, they will have an understanding of the way in which the health service is functioning. They will have an understanding of the pressures on the health service, commissioning groups and local providers and they can therefore support specialist groups of patients with a particular knowledge of their condition in how to exercise their influence most effectively within the organisation. It is those specialist groups of patients who will be tremendously valuable in improving the quality of service. They will often have far more knowledge about the way in which their condition operates than even the clinicians who support them—maybe not the specialists but general practitioners and so on—because they have that detailed knowledge and experience, day in and day out, particularly when they have a chronic condition that may continue over many years. That involvement is crucial in terms of the quality of decision-making, but it is important that they are supported by organisations such as healthwatch, which will then be able to put a context to the way that the local NHS is functioning.
Finally, there is the critical issue of the collective involvement of patients in decisions about the disposition and organisation of health services at a local level. That will be best articulated through local healthwatch organisations. This will be about what best serves the local community and what meets the differing needs within a community. The only simple mechanism by which that can be achieved is through something such as local healthwatch organisations. That is why such involvement must be built into the commissioning process, and the board must lay down how crucial this issue is crucial to the determination of services.
Lord Kakkar
I shall speak to Amendment 198 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Patel. It would impose a duty on clinical commissioning groups to consult relevant academic bodies in their area, including potential future academic health partnerships. I remind noble Lords of the entry in the Register of Lords’ Interests on my involvement in University College London Partners—one of the five academic health science systems currently designated by the Department of Health.
Academic health science partnerships can take a variety of forms but are all based upon a simple principle: the delivery of healthcare should be combined with high-quality teaching, training and research to drive the highest possible clinical standards achievable. Indeed, throughout healthcare systems in the world it is well recognised that alliances between the academic and service-delivery elements of healthcare help us to achieve the best possible clinical outcomes. That view has been recognised by the Department of Health in the designation of the five current academic health science centres in our country.
A number of other initiatives are moving forward at the same time as this Bill and are considering a broader role for academic health service partnerships. These include the ongoing review, conducted under the auspices of the chief executive of the National Health Service, which is looking at innovation in the NHS and how that might best be promoted as we move forward. It is possible that that innovation review could propose a broadening of the current five academic health science centres to a larger number of academic health partnerships that would have responsibility for the promotion of innovation, and would ensure that the results of research and other innovative ways of delivering care are more broadly and rapidly disseminated across the NHS. That dissemination of best practice and innovation could also be used to create an environment in which to stimulate economic growth. That is an important additional opportunity that the NHS and academic medicine have for our country.
There is also the detailed discussion that has taken place in Committee, outside the Chamber, and in the work of the NHS Future Forum with regard to future arrangements for education and training. In those discussions, there is a recognition that academic health partnerships should play an important role, not only in the configuration of Health Education England but in local arrangements, potentially with academic health science partnerships playing an important role in defining the structure and core of local education and training boards.
Therefore, at least two initiatives, in addition to the mechanisms and structures proposed in the Bill, will turn to partnerships between the NHS, academic institutions and other academic elements in the delivery of healthcare in our country. The purpose of my amendment is probing in order to try to understand what view Her Majesty's Government take of the potential future role of academic health partnerships and what relationship the Government foresee with regard to clinical commissioning groups working at a more local level with potential academic bodies and partnerships in their vicinity. This is particularly important because we heard today in Committee about the vital importance of clinical commissioning groups being appropriately informed. One of the important roles that academic health partnerships may play in the future is providing that kind of information to better inform the decisions that local clinical commissioning groups take. With the vast amount of evidence that academic health partnerships will have in their structures, bearing in mind that these partnerships are broad and include not only academic institutions but a variety of different service providers brought together with a common purpose, it would be peculiar if clinical commissioning groups did not at least make themselves informed of their information and expertise. It would also be peculiar if, in creating a framework and structure for education and training based around a partnership between academic elements and service and provider elements at local level in local education and training boards, clinical commissioning groups did not avail themselves of the opportunities from that.
Previously in Committee, I proposed to the Minister that clinical senates may be constituted around these broad partnerships of academic health service alliances. There was some concern that this might represent a conflict of interest. However, the very broad nature of these partnerships, with multiples of potential providers as seen in the current five academic health science systems, potentially overcomes the risk of conflict of interest. They provide a natural structure and environment to serve the function of clinical senates, to serve the function of the core of local education and training boards, to provide a useful source of information to clinical commissioning groups with regard to understanding the best pathways of care available in their regions and to promote clinical outcomes, patient safety and patient experience. They also provide a very important basis to serve the objectives of the current innovation review to promote not only best practice but the benefits of economic growth associated with innovation and implementation with regard to healthcare.
I would like to ask the Minister about Her Majesty’s Government’s view of the future role of academic health partnerships, with specific reference to clinical commissioning groups, to understand whether there is an intention that the current five academic health science centres are more broadly expanded into health academic health partnerships. If they are, how will arrangements be made in future to ensure that clinical commissioning groups avail themselves of the great expertise and knowledge that will be available in such partnerships?
Health and Social Care Bill
Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts(13 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Owen
My Lords, I support the amendment spoken to very ably by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. The case is utterly convincing in every respect. The use of the word “mandate” is strange in parliamentary terms. It presumably owes something to the idea of legitimacy. We talk of a mandate coming from the electorate. If the Bill is to use this term, I imagine that it is in the belief that it is a mandate from the Government. It has always been recognised that if there is a mandate from the electorate going to the Government then that mandate from the Government must be checked by Parliament. It would be extraordinary if there was any period when the mandate could not be discussed. It has been widely said that the mandate will last for a year, although that has not been officially confirmed. It is essential that we hear from the Minister how long the mandate will run. But with a period of even six months it would be irresponsible for Parliament not to comment on it and have the facility to debate it.
Here we come to the nub of this whole question. We have already been there on the question of the Secretary of State’s powers. Are we really considering putting this vast block of government expenditure out into the void with no requirement or capacity for the Government to be held to account by Parliament? This is an absolutely essential amendment. Were it to be rejected, we would have a very clear idea of what the Government’s views are about the role of the Secretary of State. I have said before that I call this Bill the Abdication of the Secretary of State Bill.
We can argue about this but the Government have a majority and are going to push this legislation through. For all the balmy words and the assurances we hear, this legislation will, I am sure, near the end of the day, emerge very much as it was originally presented. There is a logic to it and there is no doubt that the Secretary of State has not come to his position lightly or without thought. He was in opposition for many years and is very knowledgeable about the health service. He has a philosophical position. He wishes to take the NHS out of politics—the old slogan of the BMA for years and years. However, that position was rejected by every single Conservative Government since the Act was first introduced because they believed it was impossible to take such a large sum of money out of the realm of politics. It seems amazing that we have not yet had a single, serious argument as to why this strange new philosophy should be introduced. Where there is substantial government expenditure, which comes from taxpayers and is not owned by the Government, there should be accountability throughout the process.
I have also raised another, and, I feel, much deeper, issue. The British people, over all these years, have accepted that our spending on health—which is actually less than that of many other comparable nations—is rationed. It is no use us ducking the fact that we are making massive changes to an institution that has extraordinary levels of public support and has had such support ever since it was introduced. The fundamental reason—I can find no other justification—is that there is a sense among the British people that they have had their say in this rationing process. They have had a mechanism for feeling that the choices and distribution of finances have been debated and that therefore it is a choice they can support. If we tamper with that process, we tamper with a very serious element—this acceptance of the rationing process and this support for the NHS.
Some measure of parliamentary accountability has to be written into the Bill at every juncture where it makes sense. This will come up in the debates on the Secretary of State’s powers, which are still to come, but many of us have expressed the view—I have certainly written about it—that the health service is overcentralised, that a degree of decentralisation in decision-making is necessary, and that there needs to be less micromanagement. These issues are broadly accepted. But we come now to this mandate. I would have chosen a different word and a different mechanism. However, if that is the only mechanism we can amend, how can we reject the idea of some measure of parliamentary accountability, of writing in some other priorities and of questioning the decisions of the Minister?
Amendment 98, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, is very necessary. He and I may remember a day when the Secretary of State at the time was intent on the policy of pay beds. I was fully associated with the policy, even though I am not so sure it was the wisest policy in retrospect. It was very interesting that the then Permanent Secretary exercised his responsibility and came in and argued against the proposition. We claimed we had a mandate from the electorate as it had been in the Labour Party manifesto in the 1974 election. He nevertheless produced a rational argument why that should not be done at that particular time, following the reorganisation of the National Health Service. The noble Lord will remember this very well because he was on a committee that was looking at this very issue. The Permanent Secretary said that it was the wrong timing quite apart from the issue of principle as to whether the measure constituted the right politics. I should say in fairness to the then Secretary of State, Barbara Castle, that she gave him a proper hearing, questioned him and explained the situation. He said at the end of the day, “If you decide to go ahead with it, that is your choice and we will loyally support it”. I think that few people who dealt with those officials had any belief that they had anything other than 100 per cent commitment to the measure. They had fulfilled their constitutional responsibilities and there would have been much merit in the issue being forced out and discussed. People should have known that opinion. In our present system these opinions do not often come forward.
At least under the system in place at that time there was constant scrutiny of the Secretary of State through Parliament. In this situation where the Secretary of State, having issued his mandate, will pull out of any form of day-to-day accountability in Parliament, scrutiny becomes ever more necessary. The transparency has to be on both sides. The officials—in this case, the Commissioning Board—have a perfectly reasonable right to make clear to Secretaries of State that they think the mandate that has been pushed on to them is not deliverable. That should then be made known to the public. Similarly, the commission and the Secretary of State should know what Parliament’s view of the issue is. I await the Minister’s response, which will flavour a lot of one’s attitude to other important debates about the powers of the Secretary of State which we have still to resolve. The Government should indicate whether this is a totally “geek” Bill with the strange philosophical position that Parliament must never put its dirty fingers on any aspect of the National Health Service. Are we to have a grown-up, adult debate about the degree of decentralisation and the degree of management that will be devolved, or are we going to have a clear-cut line whereby Parliament in effect has no responsibilities at all?
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I confess that I am something of a cynic about some of the proposals in the Bill. I am a great believer in the principle of localism, the local determination of services and local decision-making. Therefore, in principle I would applaud any Government—even this Government—who desire to devolve responsibility for various things to local authorities and, in this case, local commissioning groups.
However, my cynicism kicks in because what I suspect is happening here—I suspect that it will happen in other service areas—is that Ministers are cynically saying, “We are leaving these responsibilities to you, the local bodies concerned. We are very happy for you to make all these decisions. The snag is that we will not provide you with the resources to meet all the expectations that the public, who rely on those services, might legitimately have hoped to be provided. However, we are not taking these decisions. We will not be involved. It is a matter for local determination”. To be honest, I think that is what underpins much of the localism, devolution or autonomy agenda that we are seeing.
However, the experience of all previous experiments of localism is that while Ministers say, “Yes, this is a wonderful idea. We want to do it”, pressure starts to be applied to particular things. They want to have a mechanism whereby they can say, “It is, of course, your decision. However, we want you to make sure that these things happen”. Gradually, the list of the things that must happen gets longer and longer and the list of areas of discretion gets shorter and shorter.
When I saw the proposal for a mandate to be in the Bill, I thought that that was the mechanism whereby on the one hand Ministers will proclaim that they have no involvement in these decisions and say that they are all local decisions, but on the other hand this will enable them to ensure that certain things still happen because they are being subjected, as elected politicians, to pressure to make sure that they happen. That is why the amendment of my noble friend Lord Warner, which would restrict the extent to which this could be done, is very important. If we do not have an amendment of that sort in the Bill, I can tell you now what will happen; every single pressure group, voluntary organisation and lobby will say, “We want included in the mandate”, which is being issued to the national Commissioning Board, “the following service. We will want to see it there.”
For any sensible Minister the simple answer to all this is to write an extremely long mandate that covers all those points rather than sticks to them. If they were obliged to be limited to just five or six or another small number of issues, that would be extremely salutary. It would stop the creep that would happen. However, I suspect that the Government are not going to say suddenly, “My goodness, the noble Lord, Lord Warner, has come up with an excellent idea. Why didn’t we think of that? We must accept it, of course”, because unfortunately that is not always the way in which government Ministers react. They will stick to the letter of the Bill without those specifications. They will say, “Well, why five? Why not 10? Why not 12? What about three?”. All these different things will be argued as an excuse for not doing it. You will then get the drift and the pressure to say that more and more things must be added.
Amendment 100A is so important because there must be parliamentary scrutiny of what is happening, because this will be the mechanism that drives decision-making in the NHS. It is not going to be a pure version of devolution, localism and autonomy; this is going to be done through the mandate. The mandate is then going to be the most important document that drives the NHS at any one moment. That is why parliamentary scrutiny is essential. Parliament must have the opportunity not just to see it and to know what is being done in the name of the public but to comment, amend, or put forward amendments and have the Government respond to them.
I therefore hope that when the Minister responds he will accept not only the principle of my noble friend Lord Warner’s amendment but the principle of detailed parliamentary involvement in this process in the amendment of my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
My Lords, I will comment further on Amendment 98. One of the great qualities of the amendment is that it would oblige all of us to confront directly the huge strain between the rising demand—4 per cent a year over recent years—for National Health Service services, and the limitations on resources to which the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, has eloquently referred. It is vital that if we are going to carry the public with us in making the changes, which will be required regardless of whether the NHS survives or not, to service configurations, to the way in which ancillary professions are used, and to the whole range of community activity and help, we have to get the whole of the public and Parliament to understand how acute the pressures on resources are and how very necessary the need for change is.
It is therefore vital that we take due responsibility as Parliament and as a whole nation for the changes that will be required. All of us in this House recognise that service configuration is going to be the key way in which we deliver quality services with straitened resources. However, we should not pretend to ourselves that service configuration will be anything but extremely difficult. It will be politically difficult in particular, for the reasons which the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, pointed out. Any time you configure a service in a way that, for example, results in the closure of hospitals or other medical centres, you will encounter huge public resistance, because the public like, as is very much evident, exactly what they have. It is very sad that we have to explain, regardless of how we vote on this amendment or any other amendment, that there is this straitened position between resources and demand.
That is why Parliament, too, must accept its responsibility and not press for changes that simply cannot be afforded. Unless we have an amendment like Amendment 98, which is fundamentally part of the whole parliamentary structure within which the NHS or any other form of health service has to operate, we will not start on the crucial business of persuading and training the public as well as the medical profession and ourselves about the absolute necessity of fundamental change, regardless of the actual management structure that we happen to have at the time. I personally believe the NHS has a remarkable management structure. There are others who believe that it does not, but the one thing one can say is that the crucial issue is not so much management structure as how one actually handles the massive process of change that now confronts us.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I apologise to my noble friend Lord Patel if he in any sense felt beaten up by me. I absolve my noble friend Lady Wheeler from any involvement in that process. I also apologise to the long-suffering officials in the Government Whips Office. If my robust style is mistaken, they should really see what I am like when I am angry.
I added my name to a number of amendments in the various versions of this group. I also proposed Amendment 305. If the noble Baroness who I believe is replying to this debate is planning to highlight any technical flaws in that amendment, I should point out that I drafted it myself. Therefore, it no doubt does contain a number of technical flaws. But the purpose of the amendment is to assess the feeling within the House and the strength of feeling in the department about the extent to which it is important that HealthWatch England and healthwatch organisations at local level should be independent.
The principle underlying this group of amendments is straightforward—the centrality of the voices of patients and users in the NHS. That voice must be, and must be seen to be, independent of the various provider and regulatory interests. That is what underpins all of the different amendments.
I find it difficult to understand how the Government will oppose the amendments. They keep telling us that the voice of the patient and the user will be central to all these arrangements. They say that that is their intention. But they must be aware, because everybody else is, of the cynicism and doubt that is being expressed around the country about this whole package of NHS changes. Therefore, they should be able to reassure patients and users that their voices will be heard at every level within this complicated restructuring that will take place. That is extremely important.
What is more, it will be important for that voice to be seen to be independent. Members of the public will be concerned about what is happening. They will worry whether their doctors, whom they do not fully understand as being part of commissioning groups, will somehow be making judgments about their care, influenced by financial interests. They will want to be assured that they can go somewhere for proper advice and support, and that that place will genuinely be independent of all of those interests.
A huge expectation is now being placed on local healthwatch organisations. They are expected to provide that independent advice and information, to be able to monitor the nature of the service at local level and to be able to comment on the various changes that are taking place and on the proposals that are coming from the plethora of commissioning groups, senates and goodness knows what else we are going to have. They are going to be there to make recommendations. So, there will be enormous expectations on behalf of the public as to what these groups are going to do. Similarly, the national body, HealthWatch England, will have enormous expectations upon it. That is why it is so important to get these arrangements right. The proposals for HealthWatch England and local healthwatch are an advance on what we have at present in terms of LINks. There is no question about that—they are a step forward. The record of successive Ministers and Governments in terms of patient representation in the NHS is not very good. This is a step forward from where we are at the moment. So, let us try to get it right. Why not deal with what are comparatively small issues in terms of how the system works?
The trouble is that, at the moment, the arrangements that the Government are proposing are flawed in two key respects: first, on the issue of independence, as the noble Lord, Lord Patel, has already indicated; and secondly, in terms of the resources available. Let us consider for a moment the position of HealthWatch England as a sub-committee of the Care Quality Commission. That might be a very neat way of not increasing the number of quangos by one; it may be that was the sole motivating feature. However, the reality is that it dangerously compromises the independence that I talked about as being so important. Often, HealthWatch England will have to say, on behalf of local healthwatch organisations, that the regulator should be doing something, has failed to do something or has been inadequate in the way that it has done that. In the last few weeks, we have seen the Minister’s colleagues in the Department of Health making quite critical comments about the way in which the CQC has fulfilled its remit. If Ministers are saying that—and Ministers are, after all, the paymasters of the CQC—what is it going to be like for those people whose remit is to raise these issues but are themselves subordinate to that regulatory body? It is going to be a real conflict and a very difficult position for them. The nature of that relationship—the fact that they are a mere sub-committee and are subjected to all of the panoply of arrangements that go with that—is going to be seriously limiting.
I am aware that the CQC is making enormous efforts to try and demonstrate their good faith in all of this. I am sure that the individuals involved have good faith as far as this is concerned. However, we are here considering legislation that will set those arrangements. Once those arrangements are set, the good will of the individuals who may be trying to make it work at the moment may not persist—not because those individuals will change their minds, but because, over time, those individuals will move on and others will take their place. Budgetary and other pressures on the CQC will rise. The feeling that they do not like being criticised by a body that is technically subordinate to them will increase. That is why that arrangement does not work.
There is an even stronger argument as to why local healthwatch organisations should not be subordinate to principal local authorities in their area. The Government’s flaws here are flaws twice over. Not only are they imperilling the independence of local healthwatch organisations by saying that—even though they are supposed to be independent—they are creatures of the local authority, the funds will be provided by the local authority and many of the facilities may well be provided by local authority but, because the funds will not be ring-fenced, it will be far too easy for local authorities to start to apply the screws if they do not like the criticisms that come from it.
A major conflict of interest is being created. HealthWatch cannot be accountable to, and at the same time funded by, local authorities because the bodies which commission and provide the services are the local authorities in many instances. However, the Government are saying that HealthWatch can advise members of the public about those services. How can HealthWatch organisations be funded by the same bodies that are commissioning and providing those services? This is precisely the area where the confidence of members of the public and of individual patients is so important. They have to go for advice to a body which is funded by the people about whom they wish to take advice. That hardly looks independent or satisfactory. If HealthWatch is made accountable to local authorities as the Bill proposes, the public will, frankly, have no confidence in that and all the efforts that the Department of Health and the Government have made to try to create a better structure will be wasted. That resource will be wasted because the public will not have confidence in these arrangements.
There is also a failure to protect the funding. I do not know how many hot coals Ministers in the Department of Health had to crawl over to get £60 million out of the Treasury for HealthWatch. I am not suggesting that the Department for Communities and Local Government is any more evil than any other government department, but if you hand the funding to that department, which then hands it on to individual local authorities without a label saying, “Not only is this money to be used for HealthWatch but it cannot be used for anything else”, my experience as a former council leader tells me that you cannot guarantee that the money will be used for the purpose that you wish.
I spoke earlier about localism and said how wonderful it was that the Government should devolve responsibility for this issue. However, it is not a wonderful example of localism if you expect something to happen, you pass the money on and then you are shocked if the money is not used for that purpose. If you want the money to be used for a particular purpose, you have to label it and ring-fence it. However, the Government will not do that. They say that they cannot do that as it would be inappropriate in the spirit of localism.
I have received numerous e-mails and messages from LINks on this very subject. Their experience of not having ring-fenced budgets this year is salutary. One message states:
“As a LINk our funding was reduced by the local authority by 65 per cent this year”.
Another states:
“I have spent 30 years as a senior business professional and business consultant and it is ludicrous to set an organisation targets to be funded by set criteria and then reduce those funds by 65 per cent. This makes a mockery of the organisation’s ability to carry out its public remit”.
That is what is happening at the moment. What guarantees can the Government give that it will not happen in the future?
There is a technical point here. The Department of Health has presumably secured these funds through the comprehensive spending review. Who will own those funds the next time that the comprehensive spending review is negotiated? Will it be the Department of Health or the Department for Communities and Local Government? If it is the Department for Communities and Local Government, how will it rank given its other priorities which have nothing to do with HealthWatch? If it is the Department of Health, how will it answer the question from the Treasury, “How do you know that this money is being spent in the way that you intend?”. It will not be able to answer that question, as I suspect that the correct answer is that the money will disappear. LINks already have huge concerns about the resources question.
The other element of this concerns what sort of patient representative mechanism we want. Do we want something which is top-down or something which comes from local organisations? The amendment that stands in my name seeks to establish an arrangement whereby local healthwatch organisations have ownership of the national body which speaks in their name. I believe that that is essential. Even if you created HealthWatch England as an independent structure without the problems of it being a tool of the regulator, you will still not get the necessary buy-in at local level unless local organisations feel that they are part of it and have a say in its organisation. I speak as someone who was director of the Association of Community Health Councils for England and Wales for 12 years, and I know how important it was for the member organisations to feel that what we were saying as the national body reflected—not to the letter, but reflected—what they felt was important as local organisations. If you do not have that mechanism, if you do not have that process built into the legislation, I am afraid that you will create a gulf between the national body and the local bodies. That is surely unsatisfactory.
The Government’s proposals could make an enormous difference to patient representation in the new NHS, and patient representation is going to be enormously important in the new structure, because I think that many patients will feel disempowered and worried by what is happening. However, those arrangements are flawed unless the Government accept the spirit of the amendments in this group—and unless they accept that HealthWatch, both nationally and locally, should be independent, and that resources should be clearly ring-fenced and clearly identified and cannot be used by bodies that have no interest, necessarily, in patient representation used for other purposes.
Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, I have listened to the debate, and some powerful arguments have been put forward for an independent HealthWatch England. However, I am not sure that that is the right answer. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, said that he feels that the Bill is setting up the new arrangements, and of course he is right. However, when one is setting up new arrangements, it is a good idea to look at what has happened in the past. Looking back to the confederation of CHCs, one sees that it never actually made an impact. I think that that was probably because the initiative for setting up that body came from the CHCs themselves, and so the confederation had no formal legitimacy, no clout and few resources.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I would not disagree with the point about the resources, but the initiative to set up the association—not a confederation—came from the noble Lord, Lord Owen, who was Minister of Health. He announced, in what he assumed would be a very positive fashion, that he wanted to see a national Association of Community Health Councils. However, as he had not spoken to community health councils first, they felt considerable dismay about the setting-up of a national association at the behest of a Minister. The resolution to support the creation of the association was carried—I cannot remember the precise figures—by something like only 107 to 93. I am afraid that the noble Baroness’s argument is flawed.
Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harris, for his history lesson. Perhaps I should not go on to the Commission for Patient and Public Involvement in Health. Perhaps he remembers that organisation, which never quite worked. I think that it did its best, but it failed to influence the Labour Government of the time. Perhaps it was a bit too strident. Maybe it was not canny enough. Maybe it did not build the relationships that are so critical when one is negotiating a change, especially with a big beast like a Government. Of course, the Labour Government closed that one down very hurriedly.
The proposal in the Bill is that HealthWatch England should be a committee of the CQC, as has already been said. There are advantages in that, provided that there are some safeguards in the way that it works. My three amendments seek to achieve those safeguards.
There are advantages in being at the top table, knowing what is going on, and building the necessary relationships to influence policy and practice. The CQC will, of course, have the resources to collect and analyse data on a national scale. Provided that it shares that data generously—and it must do so—it will enable HealthWatch England not to have to build its own infrastructure in order to operate effectively. That will also enable HealthWatch England to have a strategic role in shaping the new NHS. It is very important that it should not just be a sounding board for local issues, but should have a strategic vision as well. The CQC will of course learn of the issues that need addressing through the real experiences of patients, through HealthWatch England, which will be at the table.
We have to understand what both organisations bring to the party. The CQC is the regulator. Its duty is governed by the statutory standards for healthcare and it has the indicators to measure them, as set out in the Health and Social Care Act 2008. HealthWatch England brings something different: the priorities, the experiences and the views of patients and the public, through local healthwatch organisations. Played right, this combination could be very powerful. It could deliver the accountability that reflects both the priorities of government, derived from the democratic process, which I think of as the theory, and the actual experience of those who depend on health and social services during what may be the most vulnerable time in their lives, which is the reality.
If this combined perspective, to be embedded in regulation, is to work well, it is essential that HealthWatch cannot be dictated to or steered by the CQC. It must speak with a clear, strong, independent voice. This requires two things: first, the appropriate balance of membership within HealthWatch England; and, secondly, the appropriate status for its advice within the functions of the CQC. The status of HealthWatch England as a committee of the CQC may be quite pleasing in its value for money and its legislative simplicity, but it does not guarantee that clear, strong and independent voice. This is the voice of the victims who have been so badly let down by the NHS. It is the voice that has been chronicled so meticulously in the first Francis report on the mid-Staffordshire scandal, the Bristol inquiry, and other reports.
Therefore, my first amendment, Amendment 307A, ensures that the majority of the members of HealthWatch England are not also members of the CQC. This avoids the advice of HealthWatch England being biased through corporate responsibility with the CQC. My second amendment, Amendment 308A, ensures that the majority of the membership of HealthWatch England is elected from the members of local healthwatch organisations. This permits the introduction through regulation of provisions to ensure that elections cover local healthwatch organisations from across the country, and that representatives are elected through due process for an appropriate term and with appropriate accountability. We know that this works very well. We have seen regional elections to national bodies in the voluntary sector and even outside it, from student unions, to national professional associations, to the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux. The National Association of LINks Members recently conducted elections from its regions which were overseen externally and the process proved to be satisfactory.
Baroness Cumberlege
I will think about that. Having dealt with the Treasury in the past, I know how difficult it is to get anything ring-fenced. However, the noble Baroness’s suggestion is very interesting and I will take it on board.
We have examples of other consumer groups being very effective within their parent organisation. I think in particular of NICE, which has done a lot to get views on its work from the general public. The Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence has also done that.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I am sorry to intervene again on the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. It is probably because we know each other too well that I feel able to interrupt at regular intervals. The examples she has just cited are examples of bodies that are there specifically to advise the organisation concerned. The consumer panels that NICE set up are about advising NICE about particular issues in terms of clinical effectiveness and what patients in that area are concerned about. They are not representing patients more generally and they are certainly not representing patients in terms of the statutory obligations of NICE and where there might be a disagreement about what NICE is doing. They are there to inform. That is the distinction.
Lord Patel
In response to the amount of funding, as I understand it—I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, will correct me if I am wrong—the Bill suggests that the funding for HealthWatch England will be a grant in aid provided by the department to the CQC.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I sympathise with the noble Lord, Lord Patel. He is forgiven for being subject to the beatings of the noble Lord, Lord Harris. When I made my maiden speech, the noble Lord, Lord Harris, gave me a very interesting and less than usual tribute. Noble Lords will see that we have a slight history.
Baroness Northover
As the noble Lord points out, I stood against him as a paper candidate—a non-serious candidate. When I went up to congratulate him on winning by about 2,000 votes to my 20 or whatever it was, I was given a blasting in relation to the successful campaign of one of my colleagues. That apart, I have great respect for the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and I am very happy to discuss these amendments wherever they come in the Bill. However, I would point out that these amendments are about HealthWatch England and we will return to local healthwatch organisations later on. I gather that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, will not be here at that point so has flagged up some issues which I hope to be able to address. But noble Lords may wish to be aware that we will be coming back to this in relation to the local aspects.
This has been yet another high-quality debate and a range of different perspectives have been expressed. One of the things that has come through is the concern about trying to make sure that the NHS is genuinely patient-centred. All too often, patients are expected to fit around services, rather than the other way around, and that is what we are seeking to tackle here. Years back, I was a very junior spokesperson on health for the Lib Dems and then I moved to international development. I remember the debates on this issue, in particular on the National Health Service Reform and Health Care Professions Bill in 2002. It is one of the things that I asked about when seeking a briefing. Various noble Lords have referred to what has happened over the years. I was interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said in 2002 when he put forward proposals to involve patients. After they had gone back and forth and around and about and there had been much discussion, he described his position as being,
“as good as it gets”.—[Official Report, 13/6/02; col. 419.]
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, said that they now had a system,
“which will act robustly in the interests of the public and patients”.—[Official Report, 13/6/02; col. 430.]
I very much welcome the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, recognises that we are trying to improve on things.
Baroness Northover
Then there were the patient forums of 2004. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, said that these were,
“the cornerstone of the arrangements we have put in place to create opportunities for patients and the public to influence health services”.—[Official Report, 5/7/04; col. 516.]
In 2007, we moved on to LINks. We have abandoned the commission that was at the centre—the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, referred to this—because it was centralising, bureaucratic and absorbed money that was supposed to be devolved. I have the Health Select Committee report criticising that commission.
As others have said, there is a history of trying to move this forward and trying to ensure that there is better patient and public involvement. I welcome what various noble Lords have said about the improvements in the Bill. We are trying to learn from that history and move it on, although I hear what people say that we possibly have not got it as far as they people wish.
The Government are seeking a fundamental shift. The aim of HealthWatch England is to help orientate the NHS first and foremost around the patient. Healthwatch, at both local and national levels, aims to strengthen the ability of service users and other members of the public to shape and improve health and social care. The role that Healthwatch England will play is crucial. Its aim is to provide leadership, support and advice to local healthwatch organisations and to make them more effective. I looked at the LINks reports and although they are welcome, anyone can see that there is much more that can be done. They do not reflect the whole range of patient voices and the kind of responsiveness you might wish to see in the health service, which is why it is such a challenge.
HealthWatch England will also provide information and advice about the views of patients, the public and local healthwatch to the key players in the NHS and social care—the Secretary for State, the NHS Commissioning Board, Monitor, English local authorities and the Care Quality Commission. At present there is no statutory body with either of these roles. Therefore, I am sure we can all agree that this represents a step forward. As noble Lords have said, the HealthWatch England committee will be a committee of the CQC, with a chair who we intend will be a non-executive director of the CQC. Part of this debate has focused on whether this is the appropriate organisational form for HealthWatch England: whether, in this form, it can sufficiently and independently serve the interests of patients and the public and whether it will have the status it needs to achieve this. I have listened to these concerns and I fully agree that this area is too important to get wrong. We are interested in change that works and this Government believe that setting up HealthWatch England within the CQC is the best way to achieve this aim.
I shall explain the reasoning behind this. First, there are key synergies to exploit here. To be effective, HealthWatch England is going to need extensive capabilities which the commission that existed before clearly did not have. It will need clout, which clearly that commission did not have. Being part of the CQC will enable it to have both of these. HealthWatch England will be able to draw on the infrastructure and support from the CQC to deliver its work to a high standard. It will have easy access to the CQC’s information sources, which have been referred to, enabling it to develop a deeper understanding of how health and social care organisations are functioning or where there are problems where the views of people may have made a difference. Being part of one of the big national bodies will, we hope, give HealthWatch England a real profile, and one we feel would be hard to generate if it was a new, separate body—and there is the history that we know about. Operating from within the CQC should enable HealthWatch England to punch considerably above its weight.
Secondly, it will enable the voice of patients to have a real influence on the regulatory work of the CQC. Close working and communication between HealthWatch England and the CQC opens up the possibility of having the patient voice hardwired into the work of the commission. It is not just a matter of looking at HealthWatch England but seeking to ensure that it really has a positive effect.
Health and Social Care Bill
Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts(13 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, I am very grateful for that intervention. I have no experience of gymnasts and, sadly, I cannot remember that particular time. However, I have chaired very big boards. I have chaired a board of 26 and it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare because we are such a lovely nation and we always try to get consensus. Trying to do that takes time and tough and speedy decisions are not taken. In the end, the board loses the grip necessary to manage the service, the organisation or whatever it is in charge of. Therefore, I strongly support my noble friend on the issue of having 11 members on the board. When one has a very large board, a clique forms; one gets a few people who in the end run the board. They run it outside board meetings. They make the decisions before they come to the board. One gets a body of people who are responsible on the board but are actually disenfranchised—they are accountable but disenfranchised—and I think that that makes the board totally dysfunctional. Therefore, we should resist the temptation to have representatives on the board. We need a chairman with considerable leadership skills; a chief executive of proven management expertise; executives who know the business; and non-executives who bring a breadth of experience.
I have some sympathy with the arguments that have been put on the issue of the Director of Public Health but I wish to reserve my position on that, as I do on the suggestion put forward by my noble friend Lady Jolly on HealthWatch England, because it could be that the board, or whoever, might decide that there is a non-executive who has wider experience and possibly could be more effective on the board than the chairman of HealthWatch England. This needs discretion and we should leave it in the hands of the board and the Bill and not try to make it representative.
In an earlier debate the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, who is not in his place today, referred to the “fatal tendency” of the NHS to be bureaucratic and exercise producer catch-up. He said that:
“the tendency of any organisation that is in a monopolistic position [is] to be run for the convenience and in the interests of those who are providing the service, whether doctors, nurses, managers or whatever”.—[Official Report, 9/11/11; col. 251.].
We have to be very careful that we do not fall into that situation and we must try to address that “fatal tendency”, as he described it.
I wish to make one comment on the seductive amendment on limiting the numbers to be employed to 500. That again is a mistake. If we set a number, it is very likely that that number will be reached where possibly only 100 are required. It needs a great deal of scrutiny by the Secretary of State and others, through the mandate, to see what the board is doing and whether it is effective and keeping to its budget, which I am sure will be closely watched. I would like to keep the number on the board to 11.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. She and I have sat opposite each other at meetings for more years than I care to remember.
However, her belief that the chair of the NHS Commissioning Board will only be able to manage a board of 11 is slightly misplaced. We already know that the person who holds this office will be able to walk on water, with due deference to the most reverend Primate. We know that this individual will have the most extraordinary qualities. Indeed, the Health Select Committee has demonstrated that by the overwhelming vote that it gave him on his appointment. Therefore, any person of such calibre who is able to manage a quango with such an enormous budget must surely be able to manage a board of more than 11 people. That goes without saying.
It is probably unhelpful for the Bill to specify precisely the number of people who will be appointed because circumstances will change. At different times it may be appropriate to have particular people or specialisms involved, but that will change over time. To lay down the numbers too specifically is probably a mistake. Indeed, I am not sure that 11 is a sensible number for the effectiveness of boards. It is too large for the most efficient and effective of boards but it is not quite large enough to bring together all the strands of opinion and expertise that you might wish to bring.
My main reason for intervening was not to pick up on that point but to question a couple of the amendments, in particular Amendment 52C in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly. The amendment refers to the board,
“including one member who is also the Chair of Healthwatch England”.
That is a misguided amendment. It is very important that the viewpoint of the patient is heard clearly by the NHS Commissioning Board, but it would be wrong to bind HealthWatch England into the collective decisions that will be taken by the NHS Commissioning Board. Had the amendment said something along the lines of, “The chair of HealthWatch England will be able to attend all meetings of the NHS Commissioning Board and to contribute to them fully” rather than talking about membership, it would have been much better.
There is already a concern that HealthWatch England will not be seen as a properly independent organisation, partly because in the Bill it is framed as a committee of the CQC and also because the local healthwatch organisations will be wholly owned subsidiaries of local councils around the country and the money for them will not even be ring-fenced. Under those circumstances, there is a real problem about the reality of the independence of HealthWatch England. Further, to put the chair of that body in the position of perhaps having collective responsibilities for NHS Commissioning Board decisions is potentially a serious mistake. I would like to see a position where the board has the chair of HealthWatch England as an adviser. His advice may or may not be accepted, but it will be on the record what advice has been given.
I hesitate to oppose an amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath but the same applies to the Chief Medical Officer. He should be there to advise the board—and that advice should be recorded—rather than being a member of the board and therefore being part of that collective responsibility. In framing the structure of the NHS Commissioning Board, there needs to be clarity of thought. There are a number of areas of expertise and interests that ought to be reflected in board membership—those individuals should bring their expertise to the table—but they cannot be there as representatives of those particular interests because they will have to take collective responsibility for the decisions of the board. However, it is also important that you have explicitly there a number of people to give advice. That should certainly include the chair of HealthWatch England and the Chief Medical Officer.
The Archbishop of York
My Lords, I was not going to speak to these probing amendments, but as I have been gratuitously referred to twice it is prudent that I should speak.
The noble Baroness referred to number 11. We should remember that Jesus had 12 disciples; the twelfth betrayed him and so there were eleven left. Then the disciples decided before Pentecost to choose Matthias, so they then had 12 again. They then ran into trouble once St Paul the Apostle came along and they had 13, but they did not know where to put him. Numbers are always dangerous.
I am with the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy. We may need all kinds of characters on the board but it would be wrong to specify them in the Bill. If we do, then we will not have the kind of liberty and freedom to be creative and to enable the Secretary of State to promote a comprehensive health service and improve the quality of service. He needs that to help him promote the health service and then improve it. The board needs to consist of people who have the calibre to do that.
I have sympathy with Amendment 54 but not in the precise form in which it is put. It states:
“The Secretary of State must ensure that a majority of the non-executive members of the Board appointed under subsection (1)(b) have relevant experience”.
Those members should have relevant experience but as to whether they should be a majority, again, the discretion should be left to the Secretary of State and the board. If that is specified, they will all be there in big numbers but might end up not delivering or promoting whatever is required. Yes, the people appointed should clearly have relevant experience of either working in the NHS or serving on an NHS body—the NHS is not the same as Rover cars, Marks & Spencer or Tesco and you need people with relevant experience who are able to deliver properly—but I would go for the Secretary of State having people with relevant experience of working in the NHS or serving on a body without necessarily saying that they must be in the majority.
As these are probing amendments, I shall be interested to hear what the Minister has to say about that.
Health and Social Care Bill
Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts(13 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, when I was director of the Association of Community Health Councils, the message from community health councils around the country was that people who complained were seeking not compensation from, or retribution against, those who had perhaps caused the reason for their complaint—for example, the death of a loved one—but information. They wanted to know what had happened, and they wanted some reassurance that what happened to them or their relatives would not happen again.
Always, the most tragic cases were those in which people had not known what had happened and discovered the actual circumstances only much later, perhaps when their relative’s case came to an inquest or, in some cases, even long after that. I would like to hope that, in the 10 years or so since I was director of the Association of Community Health Councils, this problem would have become less, but it remains a serious blemish on the health service that, too often, such mishaps are covered up.
In a case reported only three weeks ago—the most recent case that I have come across, but I am sure there are many others—a mother discovered long afterwards that the death of her seven year-old daughter, which she had blamed on herself for not being able to perform the necessary first aid, was actually the consequence of a failure by a paramedic called to the scene. She discovered that only ages afterwards when she became aware of the transcript of the inquiry which led to the paramedic being dismissed. That case, reported in the Doncaster Free Press only three weeks ago, is an indication of the sorts of incidents that one is talking about.
I met the family of someone who had died while detained in a secure mental health facility. They discovered the circumstances in which their loved one had died only when the matter was reported at an inquest. In such incidents, the health service officials knew what had happened and had conducted their own inquiries but did not think it necessary or appropriate to tell the families concerned. That is why it is so important to have this amendment, which would place a statutory duty of candour on the health service, to make it something that runs right the way through the system.
Of course, accidents can never be eradicated. Healthcare is of its very nature a risky business and health professionals are only human, so these things will happen. However, what is unforgiveable is that the fact that something has gone wrong is not told to those concerned. The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, quoted Sir Liam Donaldson, but I thought that she was also going to quote the maxim that he gave:
“To err is human, to cover up is unforgiveable”.
That is precisely the concern that motivates this amendment.
In the White Paper Equity and excellence: Liberating the NHS, the Government said that they will require hospitals to be “open and honest” when things go wrong. That stems directly, I think, from the Liberal Democrats’ manifesto commitment, but, unfortunately, their manifesto referred only to hospitals rather than to the wider health service. I think that the Liberal Democrats intended that such a duty should be statutory, but my understanding is that the Department of Health is looking at this as something that could be written into contracts. As the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, has pointed out, having a lesser status than a requirement to inform a central agency that something has gone wrong would mean a lesser status in terms of informing the family. It is really important that we look at this issue and take it seriously, so I hope that the noble Earl will accept the amendment.
In 2005, a National Audit Office report revealed that only 24 per cent of NHS trusts routinely informed patients of a patient safety incident—that implies that more than three-quarters of NHS trusts do not do so routinely—and 6 per cent admitted that they never informed patients of a patient safety incident. Quite clearly, there is a “culture of denial”. Noble Lords may think that that is rather an alarmist statement, but I am simply quoting from a Department of Health document from 2006.
Lord Mawhinney
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I do not want him to interpret my question as opposition to the general point that he is making, but before he finishes will he say a word about the role of lawyers of health service bodies in these circumstances? I am not a lawyer, as I have told the House before, but in both cases that he has cited I could see legal advisers saying, “Say nothing”. If we are to take this amendment seriously, we need to have some idea of what part the law might play if the Bill were to be so amended. As the noble Lord has experience, I would be grateful if he would reflect on that.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, the noble Lord, with all his experience—albeit, like me, as a non-lawyer—is speaking exactly the truth. In many of those cases, the legal advice would be, “Say nothing”. There therefore needs to be a statutory duty, because then the responsibility of the lawyers concerned would be to advise, “There is no option but to tell the patients or their families”.
An interesting point is that insurers in the United States often require open disclosure policies and practice by health providers to qualify for insurance. The international evidence is that, as well as being the right thing to do morally and ethically, being open and honest when things go wrong can actually reduce litigation and complaints.
My concern is that the Government will say that they are doing enough by saying that the duty of candour can be achieved through a contractual process. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, has pointed out, this would apply only to hospitals with an NHS contract; it would not apply to GPs, dentists, pharmacists or private healthcare providers. I do not see why the duty of candour to patients and their families should be regarded as of lesser importance and impact than those things where there is direct regulation. I hope that the Minister will say that the Department of Health will take this away and that he will come back to the House with proposals to give a statutory duty of candour to protect the interests of patients.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
I, too, wish that there was not a need for this duty and that it was unnecessary. However, as we have already heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, and the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, there is a compelling case that now, more than ever, we need a duty of candour.
As has been said already, we know that accidents will never be eradicated, and nor will human error. We know that healthcare has risks—most people accept that—and that health professionals are only human. However, when things go wrong and they are caught up in things that can cause harm to patients, they need to be supported and helped to deal with a very difficult situation.
There has to be absolute clarity that anything less than complete openness and honesty when things go wrong is unacceptable in modern British healthcare. That is what I understand that the amendment is trying to achieve—a duty of candour.
In my previous life, I was a chief officer in a community health council. Unfortunately, I came across many cases in which a complaint was brought to me and, when we started to look into it, it became apparent that all was not what it seemed. It would often take months, if not years, to establish what had happened. For a family who has lost somebody or when something has gone badly wrong, that compounds the distress that is caused. It makes things worse. As the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, said, most people want to know. They just want information; they want to know the truth of what happened to their loved one. The last thing that they want is to find out, sometimes months or years later, that there has been a cover-up or they were given the wrong information. Sometimes, deliberately, the shutters simply come down because a trust fears litigation, as we have heard. Because of that fear, parents, patients and families are often left floundering in the dark and running to lawyers.
None of us can imagine losing a loved one as the result of an avoidable error and then finding out how the information had been kept from one. As has been said, there is no statutory requirement. It would come as a surprise and a shock to most of the general public that there is simply no requirement to be told when something goes wrong with any of our loved ones. The onus would be on them to find out and get to the bottom of it. Most patient groups that are campaigning for this are coming at it from real experience of having to take up some of the most tragic cases that we have heard about in recent years. The phrase “having regard to” the principle of openness is in the NHS constitution, but it is really not sufficient. It is not adequate to deal with the sort of cases that we have heard about.
Successive Governments have usually agreed that a duty of candour is a good thing and may be required, but so far there has been a failure to establish what that duty should entail. It is different from the contractual duty built into standard contracts between commissioners and some providers of NHS services. I believe that this is wrong; surely, honesty is the only policy in this instance. This should be a commitment to the protection of patients in healthcare and a legal duty of candour, which places a duty on all healthcare professionals to be open and frank with patients and their families. I was disappointed to read just last week that the GPC said that GPs would not back an openness clause in the GP contract, for example. I found that very disappointing.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, an apology is not, of itself, an admission of liability. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, for allowing me to put that into English law, if I can update the noble Lord, Lord Marks, on it.
I come at this question from a slightly different angle. My familiarity is with doctors who have blown the whistle and had their careers destroyed as a result. That, too, has its roots in a lack of internal candour. I want to see the health service become more constructively self-critical, and for the mistakes and wrong judgments that have been made to be the subject of ordinary conversations within a hospital or other medical organisations, so that better care is provided in the future. This is the way it is in schools. Teachers are generally pretty open about things that have gone wrong and look to find ways of doing things better, but they do not tell parents about it. You can look at schools that have improved from 20 per cent to 80 per cent of students achieving five GCSE grades of between A and C. The kids are the same and the intake is the same. That school has failed thousands of children but no one has ever admitted that to the parents, which is very hard to do. In fact, it would tend to freeze any kind of internal self-critical attitude, particularly if the duty was drawn as widely as it would be in this amendment.
I therefore find myself siding with the noble Lord, Lord Winston, in this, although I am very committed to candour. Candour needs to be there, particularly in something as dangerous as medicine, where you are skiing down the edge of a precipice for half the time. You cannot be blamed when things go wrong because mistakes are bound to happen under those circumstances. Downhill skiers crash; they do not intend to do that and are well trained not to—but it happens. This spreading of blame for every slight mistake or wrong judgment taken in the circumstances of surgery or something with a longer timescale, such as pharmacology, is not the right way to approach the issue. We need to find ways of being open and of encouraging professionals, in particular, to be open with each other in a culture of self-improvement. To expose all this to litigation and in effect to encourage patients to go to law whenever something goes wrong, under circumstances where it is inevitable that a large number of things will go wrong, would be a mistake.
Lord Harris of Haringey
The experience within the NHS is that people go to law only because they feel that that is the only way in which they are going to get some clarity into what has actually happened.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I am sorry; I hear someone behind me saying that that is not so. My experience in my 12 years of leading the national consumer organisation representing patients in the NHS was that that was precisely the circumstance in which many people went to law. They went to law because they wanted to get the information. That was the fact, and I suspect that that is the reality.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
Perhaps I may add a few words on an aspect that was touched upon only a moment or two ago by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas—the role of people who act as whistleblowers, particularly regarding patients who, for one reason or another, are not capable of standing up for themselves, are perhaps in institutions where they get little attention paid to them, and are not much listened to. They would be heavily dependent on the willingness of NHS staff to blow the whistle when bad standards are being allowed to continue.
One thing has always worried me about the NHS. As a parliamentarian of many years’ standing, I have received many letters from junior members of NHS staff asking me to look into some aspect of a hospital or care home in which they work, and almost invariably saying at some point in the letter, “I dare not do this myself because my job would be at risk”. This is a very serious aspect of the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, but we have not talked about it very much at all.
I tend to favour the idea proposed by my noble friend Lord Mawhinney for having an element of mediation, as well as an element of court behaviour, in the way in which we deal with such cases. However, it rests on us all to give high priority to thinking of the ways in which we can protect whistleblowers and distinguish the genuine whistleblowers from those who are complaining merely about their personal position. For example, if we included private as well as NHS hospitals and care homes, the kind of position that the noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, talked about—she described a terrible case with regard to her daughter—would not arise so readily.
I ask the Minister to say something about the view that mediation is one way forward, as well as court cases. At least as importantly, perhaps he can say whether the General Medical Council or others would now seriously consider protection for whistleblowers within NHS staff, who are often the most effective inspectors that we can find—much more effective than people with no clear knowledge of the way in which medical and health services work.
Earl Howe
I agree with the noble Lord. In fact, the GMC sets out in its Good Medical Practice the following:
“If a patient under your care has suffered harm or distress, you must act immediately to put matters right, if that is possible. You should offer an apology and explain fully and promptly to the patient what has happened, and the likely short-term and long-term effects”.
Therefore, the noble Lord is quite right: this would apply whether a doctor was treating an NHS patient or serving in a private capacity.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, asked—
Lord Harris of Haringey
I am grateful to the noble Earl for giving way yet again on this perhaps longer than expected debate. Although we have clarity about the duty placed by the General Medical Council on individual doctors, which is obviously helpful, the noble Earl gave us an example from the United States where in essence it is not that doctors conspire to keep material from the patients but that the management of the institution finds different ways to get round the duty to report an incident. The reason for saying that a very clear duty needs to be placed on them is management cover-up, which so often takes place when things go wrong.
Earl Howe
That is exactly why I referred to the need for a culture of openness rather than encouraging a situation in which we simply try to catch people out when they are not open. The amendment tabled by the noble Baroness looks to me like yet another way for people to get into trouble, rather than a way in which an organisation can take ownership of things that go wrong, encourage openness and look in-house to put things right. That is my fear about the amendment.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, asked whether the consultation that we are undertaking covers whistleblowing. No, the consultation is focused on the duty of candour; whistleblowing is a separate, but linked, issue. Since coming to office, we have, as she may know, taken a number of important steps to promote it in NHS settings.
The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, asked about the timing of the consultation response. She is right to say that the consultation finishes on 2 January. The government response will follow in due time after that. Unfortunately, I cannot be more specific. I shall be happy to write all noble Lords upon publication of the government response and I encourage noble Lords to take part in the consultation before it closes.
My noble friends Lord Mawhinney and Lady Williams referred to mediation. I take their point. They will know that mediation can mean a number of different things. As part of the proposed contractual requirement, we suggest that providers will have to offer an apology and an explanation and provide further information as appropriate, all in person with the patient, their representative, the relevant clinicians and other hospital or trust representatives as appropriate. That might well involve a mediator. I am all for mediation if legal fees and all the expense and heartache that goes with them can be avoided.
EU: Economy
Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts(13 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Howe
My Lords, other than for GPs, dentists and pharmacists, where use of the logo is voluntary—although it is very widely used—providers of NHS services are required to display the NHS logo as a sign of their commitment to the NHS patients that they treat. That is fine as far as it goes. However, where private services are also being delivered from the same premises, there are clear rules laid down that the NHS logo must be nowhere near any information about those services and that patients have to be absolutely clear what service they are receiving, whether it is NHS or private.
Lord Harris of Haringey
On the basis of that answer, does the noble Earl accept that it is inappropriate for an NHS general practitioner, during an NHS consultation with a patient, to offer their own private, non-evidence-based services instead of an NHS service —in other words, to offer their own private services in the context of an NHS consultation? I speak from personal experience.
Earl Howe
My Lords, except in limited circumstances, which must be set out in their contract, primary medical service contractors—GPs, in other words—cannot directly or indirectly seek or accept from any of their patients a payment or other remuneration for any treatment. The prohibition not only relates to treatment provided under the primary medical services contract but extends to any treatment that may be provided to the patient.
Health and Social Care Bill
Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts(13 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Harris of Haringey
I appreciate that the noble Earl is moving to a position of not addressing those questions, but it is important that he tells the Committee whether the Government have a fixed mind on these matters or whether they are going to approach with an open mind the discussions that we, in an outbreak of consensus, have agreed should happen and try to build on that consensus. If the views are closed, it raises some very difficult issues for the Committee.
Earl Howe
No, my Lords, there are no closed views. That is the reason why I suggested earlier that it was time to reflect and engage in discussions in the spirit of co-operation. I would not have said that if I had had a closed mind to them. There would not have been any point in the discussions. I simply wished to do noble Lords the courtesy of answering their questions and addressing the points that they had made. If noble Lords would rather that I did not do that, then we can make life easier for ourselves. I will certainly write to noble Lords if they would like to inform me afterwards that they wish to receive a letter. If they do not, I will not write. It is entirely up to them. I do not wish to make work for myself unnecessarily.
I have said that I believe the balance of advantage for this Committee lies in our agreeing collectively not to amend the Bill at this stage and I am pleased that there seems to be consensus around that view. I believe instead that it would be profitable for me to engage with noble Lords in all parts of the House, both personally and with the help of my officials, between now and Report to try to reach consensus on these important matters. I would just say to my noble friend Lord Marks that that includes the issues that he has helpfully raised this afternoon. I believe that he is right to associate Clause 4 in particular with the matters that we have been considering. Those discussions can be carried out in an informal way with interested Peers or in individual meetings in the House or my department. There is a place for either type of discussion. My concern is only that it is an inclusive process involving Peers from all sides of the House, and that will include listening to the views of the Constitution Committee should it choose to continue its valuable role.
With that, I hope that no noble Lord will feel cheated by the brevity of my contribution and I shall sit down.
Health and Social Care Bill
Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts(13 years, 1 month ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield
My Lords, at Second Reading, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, indicated that he wished to put the constitutional position and accountability to Parliament of the Secretary of State beyond doubt. In his letter to your Lordships of 20 October, he repeated his commitment, writing that:
“We are willing to listen and to consider the concerns that have been raised, and make any necessary amendment to put it beyond doubt that the Secretary of State remains responsible and accountable for a comprehensive health service, which we all want to see”.
Perhaps the simplest way of achieving this is to sustain the requirements of the National Health Service Act 2006, as the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, seeks to do.
If successful, this amendment would certainly extend the legislative DNA captured in the pioneering National Health Service Act 1946. However, it can be argued—as it has been by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and others—that the reality of the Secretary of State’s position since the late 1980s requires a reworking of the accountability of the Secretary of State that reflects the fact that successive incumbents have not been direct providers of services for over 20 years. For that reason, a differently crafted amendment, such as the one in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, would be more fitting.
As the Minister has said, the test is the need for this Bill to be unambiguous in capturing the Secretary of State’s core constitutional position and accountabilities at the very apex of the NHS, where policy, administration and money meet. I have great sympathy with the impulses behind the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, but I also think that subsections (2)(a) and (2)(b) of the amendment tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, make the Secretary of State’s accountabilities unambiguous. Therefore, I profoundly hope that the Minister will be able to accept the amendment tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, as Parliament’s instrument for genuinely putting the matter beyond doubt.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I apologise to the House because at Second Reading I inadvertently failed to declare an interest, as I have now been reminded by the Mirror, that I am an adviser to KPMG. I regret that it had slipped my mind as I have never advised it on anything to do with health or any of its global interests that include advising on health matters. I apologise to the House and I hope I have now corrected the omission.
I rise to speak to the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, because this is an issue that requires greater clarity, and the debate and discussion that has already taken place in Committee this evening demonstrates why that is so. As my noble friend Lord Warner has reminded us, Professor Malcolm Grant, the newly appointed chair of the national NHS Commissioning Board, has made clear what appears to be the Government’s intention with regard to the role of the Secretary of State. I assume that he did so under advice, because you do not take on a role like the chair of the NHS Commissioning Board without extensive discussions with Ministers and civil servants. He must have been briefed on the matter and quite clearly the intention is to separate out the day-to-day responsibility and answerability of the Secretary of State. There has to be some clarity on this point.
The noble Lord, Lord Newton, has pointed out that the Secretary of State de facto will be held to account by Parliament because this is about the way in which a budget of £120 billion is spent and disposed of. However, the reason we need—and the public will expect—clarity is that if the Secretary of State’s role is simply to account to Parliament that a sum of money has been passed to the NHS Commissioning Board, that will not be sufficient in holding the Secretary of State to account as to whether that sum of money is the appropriate sum and what the consequences are of not making available appropriate sums of money. That is why I suspect it becomes important.
The noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, has suggested that perhaps the form of words that the noble Baroness has used needs refreshing, because they hark back to the Bill 60 years ago. He suggests that the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, may be better suited to the purpose. However, I have some reservations about the wording used by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, in that he talks about ultimate responsibility. We may have an inkling about what ultimate responsibility means, but I wonder where else in legislation a phrase such as this is used. I defer of course to the noble and learned Lord’s far superior knowledge of the law. However, in my limited experience in this House, I have never before come across the words “holds ultimate responsibility to Parliament”. It seems a very strange usage and I think that there needs to be greater clarity and understanding about what it means. That is why it might be better to revert to the wording chosen by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams. It is tried and tested and at least we understand it.
We also have to recognise that the noble and learned Lord’s amendments helpfully set out the intervention powers and the circumstances in which they will be part of the Secretary of State’s duties, which is all very well. However, intervention powers, by their very nature, occur after the event. Something has already gone wrong.
In our earlier debate—I hesitate to hark back to it—about the role of Health Education England, the Minister told us that the Secretary of State would continuously hold Health Education England to account. However, that is different from having responsibility. Again, we need to be clear on who is answering for that. How will that be done? The fact that the Minister had to stand up and tell us that there are intervention powers, but that of course on a day-to-day basis he would be holding Health Education England to account, suggests that the current form of words in the Bill is simply not accurate.
The final test that your Lordships need to consider is: what do the public expect? The public’s expectation is that government is responsible for what happens in our health service; and unless there are locally elected officials who are responsible for what happens at a local level, they will expect their elected Government to be responsible, and that means the Secretary of State.
Lord Owen
My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate and it has certainly taken the arguments further. I do not think that anybody expects that we will vote tonight, and I think that we will come back to this at Report.
There are merits in both of the cases put forward. In some respects—we can argue about the word “ultimate”—the idea of responsibility to Parliament has merit. It also tallies with the expression used by the noble Lord, Lord Newton. When people realise what the chairman of this largest quango thinks he will do, there will be uproar. Unfortunately, we have not yet been able to read those things—we know about them through reports, but we have not yet read them. It is very clear that the chairman-designate takes the view that he is given the money, he is given the mandate—a three-year mandate which is of course subject to change—and he then decides. It is pretty clear that some people think that that is a very good idea. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, is pretty close to that position.
Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, this is the first time that I have entered this Committee debate, so I declare an interest as the executive director of Cumberlege Connections, which is a training company.
I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Owen, for mentioning micromanagement, because a lot of our debate stretches beyond just the accountability of the Secretary of State to the organisations that are going to be set up that will have devolved powers. I can understand some of the concern felt about financial probity and the money that is going to the National Health Service, £80 billion of which will go to the NHS Commissioning Board. I shall try to provide a little comfort to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and the noble Lord, Lord Harris, who seemed to imply that this money was going to be shelled out by the Secretary of State and he was then going to disappear, leaving no accountability. However, paragraph 14(1) of Schedule 1 states:
“The Secretary of State may require the Board to provide the Secretary of State with such information as the Secretary of State considers it necessary to have for the purposes of the functions of the Secretary of State in relation to the health service”.
Paragraph 14(2) states:
“The information must be provided in such form, and at such time or within such period, as the Secretary of State may require”.
There is clearly an opportunity here for intervention and for the Secretary of State to make sure that probity is being exercised.
Lord Harris of Haringey
But surely that simply states that there shall be a requirement to provide information. It does not then give the Secretary of State a power to intervene. All it means is that one has an informed Secretary of State, which is tremendously helpful, but not a Secretary of State who is able to say, “Well, this is clearly not in the public interest in terms of the way that these moneys have been disbursed”.
Baroness Cumberlege
That is true up to a point, but can you imagine, when the Secretary of State receives that information, that he will do nothing about it? That would be extremely unlikely.
The other thing I would like to say is about the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, on ambiguity and clarity. It seems quite strange to put a word into this Bill that is archaic and no longer used. It no longer serves a purpose, in that what is being done at the moment does not relate to the Secretary of State providing anything. If we are going to be really clear about legislation, surely we want to make sure that the words used are relevant to today. Including the word provide, which is no longer being used—the Secretary of State has powers to provide, but he does not actually provide services—seems a pretty irrelevant and an archaic way of producing legislation. I very strongly support the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern.
Health: Cancer
Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts(13 years, 8 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Howe
My noble friend is quite right. It does involve often a number of senior clinicians. The key to diagnosis, however, is to get in early, as I am sure he would recognise. The outcomes strategy commits us to saving the additional 5,000 lives very largely through additional identification of early cancer. In fact, 3,000 of the 5,000 lives that we are hoping to save will be saved, we hope, by earlier diagnosis. A good example of that is that over 90 per cent of bowel cancer patients diagnosed with the earliest stage of the disease survive five years from diagnosis, compared to only 6.6 per cent of those diagnosed with the advanced disease.
Lord Walton of Detchant
Would the noble Earl accept that this country has had a very proud record in carrying out clinical trials, not least in the field of cancer; and that since the passage of the European directive on clinical trials, the problem of getting ethical approval for multi-centred trials—in a variety of different centres—has become immense? Is he aware of the recent report of the Academy of Medical Sciences, from a committee chaired by Sir Michael Rawlins, which has made a number of crucial recommendations? If accepted by the Government, those would make the performance of these trials very much easier.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, there has been no question from the Conservative Benches so perhaps on this occasion we can hear from my noble friend.
Herbal Medicines
Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts(13 years, 10 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Earl Howe
My Lords, I do not have the figures, but I am aware of a notorious case on the continent some years ago involving adulterated herbal medicines, which resulted in very serious illness for a number of women. Since 2005, the MHRA has identified 282 cases where products typically marketed as herbal or traditional remedies have been found to be adulterated with random quantities of pharmaceutical substances.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, would it not be more sensible for the noble Earl to present to the House the scientific and medical evidence that suggests that it is indeed sensible to provide any sort of regulatory framework? In the absence of that scientific evidence, would it not be simpler to make it very clear that it is illegal to make false, unfounded health claims in support of any substances and that, if they contain dangerous materials, the individuals promoting them should go to jail?
Earl Howe
That is precisely why we want to consider the possibility of a statutory register for practitioners, to make sure that those who prescribe unlicensed medicines that have been prepared by third parties are fit and proper people to do so. When we make the announcement, as I hope we will shortly, the rationale for it will be set out.