Health and Social Care Bill
Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts(12 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Owen
My Lords, I support the amendment spoken to very ably by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. The case is utterly convincing in every respect. The use of the word “mandate” is strange in parliamentary terms. It presumably owes something to the idea of legitimacy. We talk of a mandate coming from the electorate. If the Bill is to use this term, I imagine that it is in the belief that it is a mandate from the Government. It has always been recognised that if there is a mandate from the electorate going to the Government then that mandate from the Government must be checked by Parliament. It would be extraordinary if there was any period when the mandate could not be discussed. It has been widely said that the mandate will last for a year, although that has not been officially confirmed. It is essential that we hear from the Minister how long the mandate will run. But with a period of even six months it would be irresponsible for Parliament not to comment on it and have the facility to debate it.
Here we come to the nub of this whole question. We have already been there on the question of the Secretary of State’s powers. Are we really considering putting this vast block of government expenditure out into the void with no requirement or capacity for the Government to be held to account by Parliament? This is an absolutely essential amendment. Were it to be rejected, we would have a very clear idea of what the Government’s views are about the role of the Secretary of State. I have said before that I call this Bill the Abdication of the Secretary of State Bill.
We can argue about this but the Government have a majority and are going to push this legislation through. For all the balmy words and the assurances we hear, this legislation will, I am sure, near the end of the day, emerge very much as it was originally presented. There is a logic to it and there is no doubt that the Secretary of State has not come to his position lightly or without thought. He was in opposition for many years and is very knowledgeable about the health service. He has a philosophical position. He wishes to take the NHS out of politics—the old slogan of the BMA for years and years. However, that position was rejected by every single Conservative Government since the Act was first introduced because they believed it was impossible to take such a large sum of money out of the realm of politics. It seems amazing that we have not yet had a single, serious argument as to why this strange new philosophy should be introduced. Where there is substantial government expenditure, which comes from taxpayers and is not owned by the Government, there should be accountability throughout the process.
I have also raised another, and, I feel, much deeper, issue. The British people, over all these years, have accepted that our spending on health—which is actually less than that of many other comparable nations—is rationed. It is no use us ducking the fact that we are making massive changes to an institution that has extraordinary levels of public support and has had such support ever since it was introduced. The fundamental reason—I can find no other justification—is that there is a sense among the British people that they have had their say in this rationing process. They have had a mechanism for feeling that the choices and distribution of finances have been debated and that therefore it is a choice they can support. If we tamper with that process, we tamper with a very serious element—this acceptance of the rationing process and this support for the NHS.
Some measure of parliamentary accountability has to be written into the Bill at every juncture where it makes sense. This will come up in the debates on the Secretary of State’s powers, which are still to come, but many of us have expressed the view—I have certainly written about it—that the health service is overcentralised, that a degree of decentralisation in decision-making is necessary, and that there needs to be less micromanagement. These issues are broadly accepted. But we come now to this mandate. I would have chosen a different word and a different mechanism. However, if that is the only mechanism we can amend, how can we reject the idea of some measure of parliamentary accountability, of writing in some other priorities and of questioning the decisions of the Minister?
Amendment 98, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, is very necessary. He and I may remember a day when the Secretary of State at the time was intent on the policy of pay beds. I was fully associated with the policy, even though I am not so sure it was the wisest policy in retrospect. It was very interesting that the then Permanent Secretary exercised his responsibility and came in and argued against the proposition. We claimed we had a mandate from the electorate as it had been in the Labour Party manifesto in the 1974 election. He nevertheless produced a rational argument why that should not be done at that particular time, following the reorganisation of the National Health Service. The noble Lord will remember this very well because he was on a committee that was looking at this very issue. The Permanent Secretary said that it was the wrong timing quite apart from the issue of principle as to whether the measure constituted the right politics. I should say in fairness to the then Secretary of State, Barbara Castle, that she gave him a proper hearing, questioned him and explained the situation. He said at the end of the day, “If you decide to go ahead with it, that is your choice and we will loyally support it”. I think that few people who dealt with those officials had any belief that they had anything other than 100 per cent commitment to the measure. They had fulfilled their constitutional responsibilities and there would have been much merit in the issue being forced out and discussed. People should have known that opinion. In our present system these opinions do not often come forward.
At least under the system in place at that time there was constant scrutiny of the Secretary of State through Parliament. In this situation where the Secretary of State, having issued his mandate, will pull out of any form of day-to-day accountability in Parliament, scrutiny becomes ever more necessary. The transparency has to be on both sides. The officials—in this case, the Commissioning Board—have a perfectly reasonable right to make clear to Secretaries of State that they think the mandate that has been pushed on to them is not deliverable. That should then be made known to the public. Similarly, the commission and the Secretary of State should know what Parliament’s view of the issue is. I await the Minister’s response, which will flavour a lot of one’s attitude to other important debates about the powers of the Secretary of State which we have still to resolve. The Government should indicate whether this is a totally “geek” Bill with the strange philosophical position that Parliament must never put its dirty fingers on any aspect of the National Health Service. Are we to have a grown-up, adult debate about the degree of decentralisation and the degree of management that will be devolved, or are we going to have a clear-cut line whereby Parliament in effect has no responsibilities at all?
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I confess that I am something of a cynic about some of the proposals in the Bill. I am a great believer in the principle of localism, the local determination of services and local decision-making. Therefore, in principle I would applaud any Government—even this Government—who desire to devolve responsibility for various things to local authorities and, in this case, local commissioning groups.
However, my cynicism kicks in because what I suspect is happening here—I suspect that it will happen in other service areas—is that Ministers are cynically saying, “We are leaving these responsibilities to you, the local bodies concerned. We are very happy for you to make all these decisions. The snag is that we will not provide you with the resources to meet all the expectations that the public, who rely on those services, might legitimately have hoped to be provided. However, we are not taking these decisions. We will not be involved. It is a matter for local determination”. To be honest, I think that is what underpins much of the localism, devolution or autonomy agenda that we are seeing.
However, the experience of all previous experiments of localism is that while Ministers say, “Yes, this is a wonderful idea. We want to do it”, pressure starts to be applied to particular things. They want to have a mechanism whereby they can say, “It is, of course, your decision. However, we want you to make sure that these things happen”. Gradually, the list of the things that must happen gets longer and longer and the list of areas of discretion gets shorter and shorter.
When I saw the proposal for a mandate to be in the Bill, I thought that that was the mechanism whereby on the one hand Ministers will proclaim that they have no involvement in these decisions and say that they are all local decisions, but on the other hand this will enable them to ensure that certain things still happen because they are being subjected, as elected politicians, to pressure to make sure that they happen. That is why the amendment of my noble friend Lord Warner, which would restrict the extent to which this could be done, is very important. If we do not have an amendment of that sort in the Bill, I can tell you now what will happen; every single pressure group, voluntary organisation and lobby will say, “We want included in the mandate”, which is being issued to the national Commissioning Board, “the following service. We will want to see it there.”
For any sensible Minister the simple answer to all this is to write an extremely long mandate that covers all those points rather than sticks to them. If they were obliged to be limited to just five or six or another small number of issues, that would be extremely salutary. It would stop the creep that would happen. However, I suspect that the Government are not going to say suddenly, “My goodness, the noble Lord, Lord Warner, has come up with an excellent idea. Why didn’t we think of that? We must accept it, of course”, because unfortunately that is not always the way in which government Ministers react. They will stick to the letter of the Bill without those specifications. They will say, “Well, why five? Why not 10? Why not 12? What about three?”. All these different things will be argued as an excuse for not doing it. You will then get the drift and the pressure to say that more and more things must be added.
Amendment 100A is so important because there must be parliamentary scrutiny of what is happening, because this will be the mechanism that drives decision-making in the NHS. It is not going to be a pure version of devolution, localism and autonomy; this is going to be done through the mandate. The mandate is then going to be the most important document that drives the NHS at any one moment. That is why parliamentary scrutiny is essential. Parliament must have the opportunity not just to see it and to know what is being done in the name of the public but to comment, amend, or put forward amendments and have the Government respond to them.
I therefore hope that when the Minister responds he will accept not only the principle of my noble friend Lord Warner’s amendment but the principle of detailed parliamentary involvement in this process in the amendment of my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
My Lords, I will comment further on Amendment 98. One of the great qualities of the amendment is that it would oblige all of us to confront directly the huge strain between the rising demand—4 per cent a year over recent years—for National Health Service services, and the limitations on resources to which the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, has eloquently referred. It is vital that if we are going to carry the public with us in making the changes, which will be required regardless of whether the NHS survives or not, to service configurations, to the way in which ancillary professions are used, and to the whole range of community activity and help, we have to get the whole of the public and Parliament to understand how acute the pressures on resources are and how very necessary the need for change is.
It is therefore vital that we take due responsibility as Parliament and as a whole nation for the changes that will be required. All of us in this House recognise that service configuration is going to be the key way in which we deliver quality services with straitened resources. However, we should not pretend to ourselves that service configuration will be anything but extremely difficult. It will be politically difficult in particular, for the reasons which the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, pointed out. Any time you configure a service in a way that, for example, results in the closure of hospitals or other medical centres, you will encounter huge public resistance, because the public like, as is very much evident, exactly what they have. It is very sad that we have to explain, regardless of how we vote on this amendment or any other amendment, that there is this straitened position between resources and demand.
That is why Parliament, too, must accept its responsibility and not press for changes that simply cannot be afforded. Unless we have an amendment like Amendment 98, which is fundamentally part of the whole parliamentary structure within which the NHS or any other form of health service has to operate, we will not start on the crucial business of persuading and training the public as well as the medical profession and ourselves about the absolute necessity of fundamental change, regardless of the actual management structure that we happen to have at the time. I personally believe the NHS has a remarkable management structure. There are others who believe that it does not, but the one thing one can say is that the crucial issue is not so much management structure as how one actually handles the massive process of change that now confronts us.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I apologise to my noble friend Lord Patel if he in any sense felt beaten up by me. I absolve my noble friend Lady Wheeler from any involvement in that process. I also apologise to the long-suffering officials in the Government Whips Office. If my robust style is mistaken, they should really see what I am like when I am angry.
I added my name to a number of amendments in the various versions of this group. I also proposed Amendment 305. If the noble Baroness who I believe is replying to this debate is planning to highlight any technical flaws in that amendment, I should point out that I drafted it myself. Therefore, it no doubt does contain a number of technical flaws. But the purpose of the amendment is to assess the feeling within the House and the strength of feeling in the department about the extent to which it is important that HealthWatch England and healthwatch organisations at local level should be independent.
The principle underlying this group of amendments is straightforward—the centrality of the voices of patients and users in the NHS. That voice must be, and must be seen to be, independent of the various provider and regulatory interests. That is what underpins all of the different amendments.
I find it difficult to understand how the Government will oppose the amendments. They keep telling us that the voice of the patient and the user will be central to all these arrangements. They say that that is their intention. But they must be aware, because everybody else is, of the cynicism and doubt that is being expressed around the country about this whole package of NHS changes. Therefore, they should be able to reassure patients and users that their voices will be heard at every level within this complicated restructuring that will take place. That is extremely important.
What is more, it will be important for that voice to be seen to be independent. Members of the public will be concerned about what is happening. They will worry whether their doctors, whom they do not fully understand as being part of commissioning groups, will somehow be making judgments about their care, influenced by financial interests. They will want to be assured that they can go somewhere for proper advice and support, and that that place will genuinely be independent of all of those interests.
A huge expectation is now being placed on local healthwatch organisations. They are expected to provide that independent advice and information, to be able to monitor the nature of the service at local level and to be able to comment on the various changes that are taking place and on the proposals that are coming from the plethora of commissioning groups, senates and goodness knows what else we are going to have. They are going to be there to make recommendations. So, there will be enormous expectations on behalf of the public as to what these groups are going to do. Similarly, the national body, HealthWatch England, will have enormous expectations upon it. That is why it is so important to get these arrangements right. The proposals for HealthWatch England and local healthwatch are an advance on what we have at present in terms of LINks. There is no question about that—they are a step forward. The record of successive Ministers and Governments in terms of patient representation in the NHS is not very good. This is a step forward from where we are at the moment. So, let us try to get it right. Why not deal with what are comparatively small issues in terms of how the system works?
The trouble is that, at the moment, the arrangements that the Government are proposing are flawed in two key respects: first, on the issue of independence, as the noble Lord, Lord Patel, has already indicated; and secondly, in terms of the resources available. Let us consider for a moment the position of HealthWatch England as a sub-committee of the Care Quality Commission. That might be a very neat way of not increasing the number of quangos by one; it may be that was the sole motivating feature. However, the reality is that it dangerously compromises the independence that I talked about as being so important. Often, HealthWatch England will have to say, on behalf of local healthwatch organisations, that the regulator should be doing something, has failed to do something or has been inadequate in the way that it has done that. In the last few weeks, we have seen the Minister’s colleagues in the Department of Health making quite critical comments about the way in which the CQC has fulfilled its remit. If Ministers are saying that—and Ministers are, after all, the paymasters of the CQC—what is it going to be like for those people whose remit is to raise these issues but are themselves subordinate to that regulatory body? It is going to be a real conflict and a very difficult position for them. The nature of that relationship—the fact that they are a mere sub-committee and are subjected to all of the panoply of arrangements that go with that—is going to be seriously limiting.
I am aware that the CQC is making enormous efforts to try and demonstrate their good faith in all of this. I am sure that the individuals involved have good faith as far as this is concerned. However, we are here considering legislation that will set those arrangements. Once those arrangements are set, the good will of the individuals who may be trying to make it work at the moment may not persist—not because those individuals will change their minds, but because, over time, those individuals will move on and others will take their place. Budgetary and other pressures on the CQC will rise. The feeling that they do not like being criticised by a body that is technically subordinate to them will increase. That is why that arrangement does not work.
There is an even stronger argument as to why local healthwatch organisations should not be subordinate to principal local authorities in their area. The Government’s flaws here are flaws twice over. Not only are they imperilling the independence of local healthwatch organisations by saying that—even though they are supposed to be independent—they are creatures of the local authority, the funds will be provided by the local authority and many of the facilities may well be provided by local authority but, because the funds will not be ring-fenced, it will be far too easy for local authorities to start to apply the screws if they do not like the criticisms that come from it.
A major conflict of interest is being created. HealthWatch cannot be accountable to, and at the same time funded by, local authorities because the bodies which commission and provide the services are the local authorities in many instances. However, the Government are saying that HealthWatch can advise members of the public about those services. How can HealthWatch organisations be funded by the same bodies that are commissioning and providing those services? This is precisely the area where the confidence of members of the public and of individual patients is so important. They have to go for advice to a body which is funded by the people about whom they wish to take advice. That hardly looks independent or satisfactory. If HealthWatch is made accountable to local authorities as the Bill proposes, the public will, frankly, have no confidence in that and all the efforts that the Department of Health and the Government have made to try to create a better structure will be wasted. That resource will be wasted because the public will not have confidence in these arrangements.
There is also a failure to protect the funding. I do not know how many hot coals Ministers in the Department of Health had to crawl over to get £60 million out of the Treasury for HealthWatch. I am not suggesting that the Department for Communities and Local Government is any more evil than any other government department, but if you hand the funding to that department, which then hands it on to individual local authorities without a label saying, “Not only is this money to be used for HealthWatch but it cannot be used for anything else”, my experience as a former council leader tells me that you cannot guarantee that the money will be used for the purpose that you wish.
I spoke earlier about localism and said how wonderful it was that the Government should devolve responsibility for this issue. However, it is not a wonderful example of localism if you expect something to happen, you pass the money on and then you are shocked if the money is not used for that purpose. If you want the money to be used for a particular purpose, you have to label it and ring-fence it. However, the Government will not do that. They say that they cannot do that as it would be inappropriate in the spirit of localism.
I have received numerous e-mails and messages from LINks on this very subject. Their experience of not having ring-fenced budgets this year is salutary. One message states:
“As a LINk our funding was reduced by the local authority by 65 per cent this year”.
Another states:
“I have spent 30 years as a senior business professional and business consultant and it is ludicrous to set an organisation targets to be funded by set criteria and then reduce those funds by 65 per cent. This makes a mockery of the organisation’s ability to carry out its public remit”.
That is what is happening at the moment. What guarantees can the Government give that it will not happen in the future?
There is a technical point here. The Department of Health has presumably secured these funds through the comprehensive spending review. Who will own those funds the next time that the comprehensive spending review is negotiated? Will it be the Department of Health or the Department for Communities and Local Government? If it is the Department for Communities and Local Government, how will it rank given its other priorities which have nothing to do with HealthWatch? If it is the Department of Health, how will it answer the question from the Treasury, “How do you know that this money is being spent in the way that you intend?”. It will not be able to answer that question, as I suspect that the correct answer is that the money will disappear. LINks already have huge concerns about the resources question.
The other element of this concerns what sort of patient representative mechanism we want. Do we want something which is top-down or something which comes from local organisations? The amendment that stands in my name seeks to establish an arrangement whereby local healthwatch organisations have ownership of the national body which speaks in their name. I believe that that is essential. Even if you created HealthWatch England as an independent structure without the problems of it being a tool of the regulator, you will still not get the necessary buy-in at local level unless local organisations feel that they are part of it and have a say in its organisation. I speak as someone who was director of the Association of Community Health Councils for England and Wales for 12 years, and I know how important it was for the member organisations to feel that what we were saying as the national body reflected—not to the letter, but reflected—what they felt was important as local organisations. If you do not have that mechanism, if you do not have that process built into the legislation, I am afraid that you will create a gulf between the national body and the local bodies. That is surely unsatisfactory.
The Government’s proposals could make an enormous difference to patient representation in the new NHS, and patient representation is going to be enormously important in the new structure, because I think that many patients will feel disempowered and worried by what is happening. However, those arrangements are flawed unless the Government accept the spirit of the amendments in this group—and unless they accept that HealthWatch, both nationally and locally, should be independent, and that resources should be clearly ring-fenced and clearly identified and cannot be used by bodies that have no interest, necessarily, in patient representation used for other purposes.
Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, I have listened to the debate, and some powerful arguments have been put forward for an independent HealthWatch England. However, I am not sure that that is the right answer. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, said that he feels that the Bill is setting up the new arrangements, and of course he is right. However, when one is setting up new arrangements, it is a good idea to look at what has happened in the past. Looking back to the confederation of CHCs, one sees that it never actually made an impact. I think that that was probably because the initiative for setting up that body came from the CHCs themselves, and so the confederation had no formal legitimacy, no clout and few resources.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I would not disagree with the point about the resources, but the initiative to set up the association—not a confederation—came from the noble Lord, Lord Owen, who was Minister of Health. He announced, in what he assumed would be a very positive fashion, that he wanted to see a national Association of Community Health Councils. However, as he had not spoken to community health councils first, they felt considerable dismay about the setting-up of a national association at the behest of a Minister. The resolution to support the creation of the association was carried—I cannot remember the precise figures—by something like only 107 to 93. I am afraid that the noble Baroness’s argument is flawed.
Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harris, for his history lesson. Perhaps I should not go on to the Commission for Patient and Public Involvement in Health. Perhaps he remembers that organisation, which never quite worked. I think that it did its best, but it failed to influence the Labour Government of the time. Perhaps it was a bit too strident. Maybe it was not canny enough. Maybe it did not build the relationships that are so critical when one is negotiating a change, especially with a big beast like a Government. Of course, the Labour Government closed that one down very hurriedly.
The proposal in the Bill is that HealthWatch England should be a committee of the CQC, as has already been said. There are advantages in that, provided that there are some safeguards in the way that it works. My three amendments seek to achieve those safeguards.
There are advantages in being at the top table, knowing what is going on, and building the necessary relationships to influence policy and practice. The CQC will, of course, have the resources to collect and analyse data on a national scale. Provided that it shares that data generously—and it must do so—it will enable HealthWatch England not to have to build its own infrastructure in order to operate effectively. That will also enable HealthWatch England to have a strategic role in shaping the new NHS. It is very important that it should not just be a sounding board for local issues, but should have a strategic vision as well. The CQC will of course learn of the issues that need addressing through the real experiences of patients, through HealthWatch England, which will be at the table.
We have to understand what both organisations bring to the party. The CQC is the regulator. Its duty is governed by the statutory standards for healthcare and it has the indicators to measure them, as set out in the Health and Social Care Act 2008. HealthWatch England brings something different: the priorities, the experiences and the views of patients and the public, through local healthwatch organisations. Played right, this combination could be very powerful. It could deliver the accountability that reflects both the priorities of government, derived from the democratic process, which I think of as the theory, and the actual experience of those who depend on health and social services during what may be the most vulnerable time in their lives, which is the reality.
If this combined perspective, to be embedded in regulation, is to work well, it is essential that HealthWatch cannot be dictated to or steered by the CQC. It must speak with a clear, strong, independent voice. This requires two things: first, the appropriate balance of membership within HealthWatch England; and, secondly, the appropriate status for its advice within the functions of the CQC. The status of HealthWatch England as a committee of the CQC may be quite pleasing in its value for money and its legislative simplicity, but it does not guarantee that clear, strong and independent voice. This is the voice of the victims who have been so badly let down by the NHS. It is the voice that has been chronicled so meticulously in the first Francis report on the mid-Staffordshire scandal, the Bristol inquiry, and other reports.
Therefore, my first amendment, Amendment 307A, ensures that the majority of the members of HealthWatch England are not also members of the CQC. This avoids the advice of HealthWatch England being biased through corporate responsibility with the CQC. My second amendment, Amendment 308A, ensures that the majority of the membership of HealthWatch England is elected from the members of local healthwatch organisations. This permits the introduction through regulation of provisions to ensure that elections cover local healthwatch organisations from across the country, and that representatives are elected through due process for an appropriate term and with appropriate accountability. We know that this works very well. We have seen regional elections to national bodies in the voluntary sector and even outside it, from student unions, to national professional associations, to the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux. The National Association of LINks Members recently conducted elections from its regions which were overseen externally and the process proved to be satisfactory.
Baroness Cumberlege
I will think about that. Having dealt with the Treasury in the past, I know how difficult it is to get anything ring-fenced. However, the noble Baroness’s suggestion is very interesting and I will take it on board.
We have examples of other consumer groups being very effective within their parent organisation. I think in particular of NICE, which has done a lot to get views on its work from the general public. The Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence has also done that.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I am sorry to intervene again on the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. It is probably because we know each other too well that I feel able to interrupt at regular intervals. The examples she has just cited are examples of bodies that are there specifically to advise the organisation concerned. The consumer panels that NICE set up are about advising NICE about particular issues in terms of clinical effectiveness and what patients in that area are concerned about. They are not representing patients more generally and they are certainly not representing patients in terms of the statutory obligations of NICE and where there might be a disagreement about what NICE is doing. They are there to inform. That is the distinction.
Lord Patel
In response to the amount of funding, as I understand it—I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, will correct me if I am wrong—the Bill suggests that the funding for HealthWatch England will be a grant in aid provided by the department to the CQC.
Baroness Northover
My Lords, I sympathise with the noble Lord, Lord Patel. He is forgiven for being subject to the beatings of the noble Lord, Lord Harris. When I made my maiden speech, the noble Lord, Lord Harris, gave me a very interesting and less than usual tribute. Noble Lords will see that we have a slight history.
Baroness Northover
As the noble Lord points out, I stood against him as a paper candidate—a non-serious candidate. When I went up to congratulate him on winning by about 2,000 votes to my 20 or whatever it was, I was given a blasting in relation to the successful campaign of one of my colleagues. That apart, I have great respect for the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and I am very happy to discuss these amendments wherever they come in the Bill. However, I would point out that these amendments are about HealthWatch England and we will return to local healthwatch organisations later on. I gather that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, will not be here at that point so has flagged up some issues which I hope to be able to address. But noble Lords may wish to be aware that we will be coming back to this in relation to the local aspects.
This has been yet another high-quality debate and a range of different perspectives have been expressed. One of the things that has come through is the concern about trying to make sure that the NHS is genuinely patient-centred. All too often, patients are expected to fit around services, rather than the other way around, and that is what we are seeking to tackle here. Years back, I was a very junior spokesperson on health for the Lib Dems and then I moved to international development. I remember the debates on this issue, in particular on the National Health Service Reform and Health Care Professions Bill in 2002. It is one of the things that I asked about when seeking a briefing. Various noble Lords have referred to what has happened over the years. I was interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said in 2002 when he put forward proposals to involve patients. After they had gone back and forth and around and about and there had been much discussion, he described his position as being,
“as good as it gets”.—[Official Report, 13/6/02; col. 419.]
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, said that they now had a system,
“which will act robustly in the interests of the public and patients”.—[Official Report, 13/6/02; col. 430.]
I very much welcome the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, recognises that we are trying to improve on things.
Baroness Northover
Then there were the patient forums of 2004. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, said that these were,
“the cornerstone of the arrangements we have put in place to create opportunities for patients and the public to influence health services”.—[Official Report, 5/7/04; col. 516.]
In 2007, we moved on to LINks. We have abandoned the commission that was at the centre—the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, referred to this—because it was centralising, bureaucratic and absorbed money that was supposed to be devolved. I have the Health Select Committee report criticising that commission.
As others have said, there is a history of trying to move this forward and trying to ensure that there is better patient and public involvement. I welcome what various noble Lords have said about the improvements in the Bill. We are trying to learn from that history and move it on, although I hear what people say that we possibly have not got it as far as they people wish.
The Government are seeking a fundamental shift. The aim of HealthWatch England is to help orientate the NHS first and foremost around the patient. Healthwatch, at both local and national levels, aims to strengthen the ability of service users and other members of the public to shape and improve health and social care. The role that Healthwatch England will play is crucial. Its aim is to provide leadership, support and advice to local healthwatch organisations and to make them more effective. I looked at the LINks reports and although they are welcome, anyone can see that there is much more that can be done. They do not reflect the whole range of patient voices and the kind of responsiveness you might wish to see in the health service, which is why it is such a challenge.
HealthWatch England will also provide information and advice about the views of patients, the public and local healthwatch to the key players in the NHS and social care—the Secretary for State, the NHS Commissioning Board, Monitor, English local authorities and the Care Quality Commission. At present there is no statutory body with either of these roles. Therefore, I am sure we can all agree that this represents a step forward. As noble Lords have said, the HealthWatch England committee will be a committee of the CQC, with a chair who we intend will be a non-executive director of the CQC. Part of this debate has focused on whether this is the appropriate organisational form for HealthWatch England: whether, in this form, it can sufficiently and independently serve the interests of patients and the public and whether it will have the status it needs to achieve this. I have listened to these concerns and I fully agree that this area is too important to get wrong. We are interested in change that works and this Government believe that setting up HealthWatch England within the CQC is the best way to achieve this aim.
I shall explain the reasoning behind this. First, there are key synergies to exploit here. To be effective, HealthWatch England is going to need extensive capabilities which the commission that existed before clearly did not have. It will need clout, which clearly that commission did not have. Being part of the CQC will enable it to have both of these. HealthWatch England will be able to draw on the infrastructure and support from the CQC to deliver its work to a high standard. It will have easy access to the CQC’s information sources, which have been referred to, enabling it to develop a deeper understanding of how health and social care organisations are functioning or where there are problems where the views of people may have made a difference. Being part of one of the big national bodies will, we hope, give HealthWatch England a real profile, and one we feel would be hard to generate if it was a new, separate body—and there is the history that we know about. Operating from within the CQC should enable HealthWatch England to punch considerably above its weight.
Secondly, it will enable the voice of patients to have a real influence on the regulatory work of the CQC. Close working and communication between HealthWatch England and the CQC opens up the possibility of having the patient voice hardwired into the work of the commission. It is not just a matter of looking at HealthWatch England but seeking to ensure that it really has a positive effect.
Health and Social Care Bill
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Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, I am very grateful for that intervention. I have no experience of gymnasts and, sadly, I cannot remember that particular time. However, I have chaired very big boards. I have chaired a board of 26 and it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare because we are such a lovely nation and we always try to get consensus. Trying to do that takes time and tough and speedy decisions are not taken. In the end, the board loses the grip necessary to manage the service, the organisation or whatever it is in charge of. Therefore, I strongly support my noble friend on the issue of having 11 members on the board. When one has a very large board, a clique forms; one gets a few people who in the end run the board. They run it outside board meetings. They make the decisions before they come to the board. One gets a body of people who are responsible on the board but are actually disenfranchised—they are accountable but disenfranchised—and I think that that makes the board totally dysfunctional. Therefore, we should resist the temptation to have representatives on the board. We need a chairman with considerable leadership skills; a chief executive of proven management expertise; executives who know the business; and non-executives who bring a breadth of experience.
I have some sympathy with the arguments that have been put on the issue of the Director of Public Health but I wish to reserve my position on that, as I do on the suggestion put forward by my noble friend Lady Jolly on HealthWatch England, because it could be that the board, or whoever, might decide that there is a non-executive who has wider experience and possibly could be more effective on the board than the chairman of HealthWatch England. This needs discretion and we should leave it in the hands of the board and the Bill and not try to make it representative.
In an earlier debate the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, who is not in his place today, referred to the “fatal tendency” of the NHS to be bureaucratic and exercise producer catch-up. He said that:
“the tendency of any organisation that is in a monopolistic position [is] to be run for the convenience and in the interests of those who are providing the service, whether doctors, nurses, managers or whatever”.—[Official Report, 9/11/11; col. 251.].
We have to be very careful that we do not fall into that situation and we must try to address that “fatal tendency”, as he described it.
I wish to make one comment on the seductive amendment on limiting the numbers to be employed to 500. That again is a mistake. If we set a number, it is very likely that that number will be reached where possibly only 100 are required. It needs a great deal of scrutiny by the Secretary of State and others, through the mandate, to see what the board is doing and whether it is effective and keeping to its budget, which I am sure will be closely watched. I would like to keep the number on the board to 11.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege. She and I have sat opposite each other at meetings for more years than I care to remember.
However, her belief that the chair of the NHS Commissioning Board will only be able to manage a board of 11 is slightly misplaced. We already know that the person who holds this office will be able to walk on water, with due deference to the most reverend Primate. We know that this individual will have the most extraordinary qualities. Indeed, the Health Select Committee has demonstrated that by the overwhelming vote that it gave him on his appointment. Therefore, any person of such calibre who is able to manage a quango with such an enormous budget must surely be able to manage a board of more than 11 people. That goes without saying.
It is probably unhelpful for the Bill to specify precisely the number of people who will be appointed because circumstances will change. At different times it may be appropriate to have particular people or specialisms involved, but that will change over time. To lay down the numbers too specifically is probably a mistake. Indeed, I am not sure that 11 is a sensible number for the effectiveness of boards. It is too large for the most efficient and effective of boards but it is not quite large enough to bring together all the strands of opinion and expertise that you might wish to bring.
My main reason for intervening was not to pick up on that point but to question a couple of the amendments, in particular Amendment 52C in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly. The amendment refers to the board,
“including one member who is also the Chair of Healthwatch England”.
That is a misguided amendment. It is very important that the viewpoint of the patient is heard clearly by the NHS Commissioning Board, but it would be wrong to bind HealthWatch England into the collective decisions that will be taken by the NHS Commissioning Board. Had the amendment said something along the lines of, “The chair of HealthWatch England will be able to attend all meetings of the NHS Commissioning Board and to contribute to them fully” rather than talking about membership, it would have been much better.
There is already a concern that HealthWatch England will not be seen as a properly independent organisation, partly because in the Bill it is framed as a committee of the CQC and also because the local healthwatch organisations will be wholly owned subsidiaries of local councils around the country and the money for them will not even be ring-fenced. Under those circumstances, there is a real problem about the reality of the independence of HealthWatch England. Further, to put the chair of that body in the position of perhaps having collective responsibilities for NHS Commissioning Board decisions is potentially a serious mistake. I would like to see a position where the board has the chair of HealthWatch England as an adviser. His advice may or may not be accepted, but it will be on the record what advice has been given.
I hesitate to oppose an amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath but the same applies to the Chief Medical Officer. He should be there to advise the board—and that advice should be recorded—rather than being a member of the board and therefore being part of that collective responsibility. In framing the structure of the NHS Commissioning Board, there needs to be clarity of thought. There are a number of areas of expertise and interests that ought to be reflected in board membership—those individuals should bring their expertise to the table—but they cannot be there as representatives of those particular interests because they will have to take collective responsibility for the decisions of the board. However, it is also important that you have explicitly there a number of people to give advice. That should certainly include the chair of HealthWatch England and the Chief Medical Officer.
The Archbishop of York
My Lords, I was not going to speak to these probing amendments, but as I have been gratuitously referred to twice it is prudent that I should speak.
The noble Baroness referred to number 11. We should remember that Jesus had 12 disciples; the twelfth betrayed him and so there were eleven left. Then the disciples decided before Pentecost to choose Matthias, so they then had 12 again. They then ran into trouble once St Paul the Apostle came along and they had 13, but they did not know where to put him. Numbers are always dangerous.
I am with the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy. We may need all kinds of characters on the board but it would be wrong to specify them in the Bill. If we do, then we will not have the kind of liberty and freedom to be creative and to enable the Secretary of State to promote a comprehensive health service and improve the quality of service. He needs that to help him promote the health service and then improve it. The board needs to consist of people who have the calibre to do that.
I have sympathy with Amendment 54 but not in the precise form in which it is put. It states:
“The Secretary of State must ensure that a majority of the non-executive members of the Board appointed under subsection (1)(b) have relevant experience”.
Those members should have relevant experience but as to whether they should be a majority, again, the discretion should be left to the Secretary of State and the board. If that is specified, they will all be there in big numbers but might end up not delivering or promoting whatever is required. Yes, the people appointed should clearly have relevant experience of either working in the NHS or serving on an NHS body—the NHS is not the same as Rover cars, Marks & Spencer or Tesco and you need people with relevant experience who are able to deliver properly—but I would go for the Secretary of State having people with relevant experience of working in the NHS or serving on a body without necessarily saying that they must be in the majority.
As these are probing amendments, I shall be interested to hear what the Minister has to say about that.
Health and Social Care Bill
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Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, when I was director of the Association of Community Health Councils, the message from community health councils around the country was that people who complained were seeking not compensation from, or retribution against, those who had perhaps caused the reason for their complaint—for example, the death of a loved one—but information. They wanted to know what had happened, and they wanted some reassurance that what happened to them or their relatives would not happen again.
Always, the most tragic cases were those in which people had not known what had happened and discovered the actual circumstances only much later, perhaps when their relative’s case came to an inquest or, in some cases, even long after that. I would like to hope that, in the 10 years or so since I was director of the Association of Community Health Councils, this problem would have become less, but it remains a serious blemish on the health service that, too often, such mishaps are covered up.
In a case reported only three weeks ago—the most recent case that I have come across, but I am sure there are many others—a mother discovered long afterwards that the death of her seven year-old daughter, which she had blamed on herself for not being able to perform the necessary first aid, was actually the consequence of a failure by a paramedic called to the scene. She discovered that only ages afterwards when she became aware of the transcript of the inquiry which led to the paramedic being dismissed. That case, reported in the Doncaster Free Press only three weeks ago, is an indication of the sorts of incidents that one is talking about.
I met the family of someone who had died while detained in a secure mental health facility. They discovered the circumstances in which their loved one had died only when the matter was reported at an inquest. In such incidents, the health service officials knew what had happened and had conducted their own inquiries but did not think it necessary or appropriate to tell the families concerned. That is why it is so important to have this amendment, which would place a statutory duty of candour on the health service, to make it something that runs right the way through the system.
Of course, accidents can never be eradicated. Healthcare is of its very nature a risky business and health professionals are only human, so these things will happen. However, what is unforgiveable is that the fact that something has gone wrong is not told to those concerned. The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, quoted Sir Liam Donaldson, but I thought that she was also going to quote the maxim that he gave:
“To err is human, to cover up is unforgiveable”.
That is precisely the concern that motivates this amendment.
In the White Paper Equity and excellence: Liberating the NHS, the Government said that they will require hospitals to be “open and honest” when things go wrong. That stems directly, I think, from the Liberal Democrats’ manifesto commitment, but, unfortunately, their manifesto referred only to hospitals rather than to the wider health service. I think that the Liberal Democrats intended that such a duty should be statutory, but my understanding is that the Department of Health is looking at this as something that could be written into contracts. As the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, has pointed out, having a lesser status than a requirement to inform a central agency that something has gone wrong would mean a lesser status in terms of informing the family. It is really important that we look at this issue and take it seriously, so I hope that the noble Earl will accept the amendment.
In 2005, a National Audit Office report revealed that only 24 per cent of NHS trusts routinely informed patients of a patient safety incident—that implies that more than three-quarters of NHS trusts do not do so routinely—and 6 per cent admitted that they never informed patients of a patient safety incident. Quite clearly, there is a “culture of denial”. Noble Lords may think that that is rather an alarmist statement, but I am simply quoting from a Department of Health document from 2006.
Lord Mawhinney
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I do not want him to interpret my question as opposition to the general point that he is making, but before he finishes will he say a word about the role of lawyers of health service bodies in these circumstances? I am not a lawyer, as I have told the House before, but in both cases that he has cited I could see legal advisers saying, “Say nothing”. If we are to take this amendment seriously, we need to have some idea of what part the law might play if the Bill were to be so amended. As the noble Lord has experience, I would be grateful if he would reflect on that.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, the noble Lord, with all his experience—albeit, like me, as a non-lawyer—is speaking exactly the truth. In many of those cases, the legal advice would be, “Say nothing”. There therefore needs to be a statutory duty, because then the responsibility of the lawyers concerned would be to advise, “There is no option but to tell the patients or their families”.
An interesting point is that insurers in the United States often require open disclosure policies and practice by health providers to qualify for insurance. The international evidence is that, as well as being the right thing to do morally and ethically, being open and honest when things go wrong can actually reduce litigation and complaints.
My concern is that the Government will say that they are doing enough by saying that the duty of candour can be achieved through a contractual process. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, has pointed out, this would apply only to hospitals with an NHS contract; it would not apply to GPs, dentists, pharmacists or private healthcare providers. I do not see why the duty of candour to patients and their families should be regarded as of lesser importance and impact than those things where there is direct regulation. I hope that the Minister will say that the Department of Health will take this away and that he will come back to the House with proposals to give a statutory duty of candour to protect the interests of patients.
Baroness Hussein-Ece
I, too, wish that there was not a need for this duty and that it was unnecessary. However, as we have already heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, and the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, there is a compelling case that now, more than ever, we need a duty of candour.
As has been said already, we know that accidents will never be eradicated, and nor will human error. We know that healthcare has risks—most people accept that—and that health professionals are only human. However, when things go wrong and they are caught up in things that can cause harm to patients, they need to be supported and helped to deal with a very difficult situation.
There has to be absolute clarity that anything less than complete openness and honesty when things go wrong is unacceptable in modern British healthcare. That is what I understand that the amendment is trying to achieve—a duty of candour.
In my previous life, I was a chief officer in a community health council. Unfortunately, I came across many cases in which a complaint was brought to me and, when we started to look into it, it became apparent that all was not what it seemed. It would often take months, if not years, to establish what had happened. For a family who has lost somebody or when something has gone badly wrong, that compounds the distress that is caused. It makes things worse. As the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, said, most people want to know. They just want information; they want to know the truth of what happened to their loved one. The last thing that they want is to find out, sometimes months or years later, that there has been a cover-up or they were given the wrong information. Sometimes, deliberately, the shutters simply come down because a trust fears litigation, as we have heard. Because of that fear, parents, patients and families are often left floundering in the dark and running to lawyers.
None of us can imagine losing a loved one as the result of an avoidable error and then finding out how the information had been kept from one. As has been said, there is no statutory requirement. It would come as a surprise and a shock to most of the general public that there is simply no requirement to be told when something goes wrong with any of our loved ones. The onus would be on them to find out and get to the bottom of it. Most patient groups that are campaigning for this are coming at it from real experience of having to take up some of the most tragic cases that we have heard about in recent years. The phrase “having regard to” the principle of openness is in the NHS constitution, but it is really not sufficient. It is not adequate to deal with the sort of cases that we have heard about.
Successive Governments have usually agreed that a duty of candour is a good thing and may be required, but so far there has been a failure to establish what that duty should entail. It is different from the contractual duty built into standard contracts between commissioners and some providers of NHS services. I believe that this is wrong; surely, honesty is the only policy in this instance. This should be a commitment to the protection of patients in healthcare and a legal duty of candour, which places a duty on all healthcare professionals to be open and frank with patients and their families. I was disappointed to read just last week that the GPC said that GPs would not back an openness clause in the GP contract, for example. I found that very disappointing.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, an apology is not, of itself, an admission of liability. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, for allowing me to put that into English law, if I can update the noble Lord, Lord Marks, on it.
I come at this question from a slightly different angle. My familiarity is with doctors who have blown the whistle and had their careers destroyed as a result. That, too, has its roots in a lack of internal candour. I want to see the health service become more constructively self-critical, and for the mistakes and wrong judgments that have been made to be the subject of ordinary conversations within a hospital or other medical organisations, so that better care is provided in the future. This is the way it is in schools. Teachers are generally pretty open about things that have gone wrong and look to find ways of doing things better, but they do not tell parents about it. You can look at schools that have improved from 20 per cent to 80 per cent of students achieving five GCSE grades of between A and C. The kids are the same and the intake is the same. That school has failed thousands of children but no one has ever admitted that to the parents, which is very hard to do. In fact, it would tend to freeze any kind of internal self-critical attitude, particularly if the duty was drawn as widely as it would be in this amendment.
I therefore find myself siding with the noble Lord, Lord Winston, in this, although I am very committed to candour. Candour needs to be there, particularly in something as dangerous as medicine, where you are skiing down the edge of a precipice for half the time. You cannot be blamed when things go wrong because mistakes are bound to happen under those circumstances. Downhill skiers crash; they do not intend to do that and are well trained not to—but it happens. This spreading of blame for every slight mistake or wrong judgment taken in the circumstances of surgery or something with a longer timescale, such as pharmacology, is not the right way to approach the issue. We need to find ways of being open and of encouraging professionals, in particular, to be open with each other in a culture of self-improvement. To expose all this to litigation and in effect to encourage patients to go to law whenever something goes wrong, under circumstances where it is inevitable that a large number of things will go wrong, would be a mistake.
Lord Harris of Haringey
The experience within the NHS is that people go to law only because they feel that that is the only way in which they are going to get some clarity into what has actually happened.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I am sorry; I hear someone behind me saying that that is not so. My experience in my 12 years of leading the national consumer organisation representing patients in the NHS was that that was precisely the circumstance in which many people went to law. They went to law because they wanted to get the information. That was the fact, and I suspect that that is the reality.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
Perhaps I may add a few words on an aspect that was touched upon only a moment or two ago by the noble Lord, Lord Lucas—the role of people who act as whistleblowers, particularly regarding patients who, for one reason or another, are not capable of standing up for themselves, are perhaps in institutions where they get little attention paid to them, and are not much listened to. They would be heavily dependent on the willingness of NHS staff to blow the whistle when bad standards are being allowed to continue.
One thing has always worried me about the NHS. As a parliamentarian of many years’ standing, I have received many letters from junior members of NHS staff asking me to look into some aspect of a hospital or care home in which they work, and almost invariably saying at some point in the letter, “I dare not do this myself because my job would be at risk”. This is a very serious aspect of the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, but we have not talked about it very much at all.
I tend to favour the idea proposed by my noble friend Lord Mawhinney for having an element of mediation, as well as an element of court behaviour, in the way in which we deal with such cases. However, it rests on us all to give high priority to thinking of the ways in which we can protect whistleblowers and distinguish the genuine whistleblowers from those who are complaining merely about their personal position. For example, if we included private as well as NHS hospitals and care homes, the kind of position that the noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, talked about—she described a terrible case with regard to her daughter—would not arise so readily.
I ask the Minister to say something about the view that mediation is one way forward, as well as court cases. At least as importantly, perhaps he can say whether the General Medical Council or others would now seriously consider protection for whistleblowers within NHS staff, who are often the most effective inspectors that we can find—much more effective than people with no clear knowledge of the way in which medical and health services work.
Earl Howe
I agree with the noble Lord. In fact, the GMC sets out in its Good Medical Practice the following:
“If a patient under your care has suffered harm or distress, you must act immediately to put matters right, if that is possible. You should offer an apology and explain fully and promptly to the patient what has happened, and the likely short-term and long-term effects”.
Therefore, the noble Lord is quite right: this would apply whether a doctor was treating an NHS patient or serving in a private capacity.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, asked—
Lord Harris of Haringey
I am grateful to the noble Earl for giving way yet again on this perhaps longer than expected debate. Although we have clarity about the duty placed by the General Medical Council on individual doctors, which is obviously helpful, the noble Earl gave us an example from the United States where in essence it is not that doctors conspire to keep material from the patients but that the management of the institution finds different ways to get round the duty to report an incident. The reason for saying that a very clear duty needs to be placed on them is management cover-up, which so often takes place when things go wrong.
Earl Howe
That is exactly why I referred to the need for a culture of openness rather than encouraging a situation in which we simply try to catch people out when they are not open. The amendment tabled by the noble Baroness looks to me like yet another way for people to get into trouble, rather than a way in which an organisation can take ownership of things that go wrong, encourage openness and look in-house to put things right. That is my fear about the amendment.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, asked whether the consultation that we are undertaking covers whistleblowing. No, the consultation is focused on the duty of candour; whistleblowing is a separate, but linked, issue. Since coming to office, we have, as she may know, taken a number of important steps to promote it in NHS settings.
The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, asked about the timing of the consultation response. She is right to say that the consultation finishes on 2 January. The government response will follow in due time after that. Unfortunately, I cannot be more specific. I shall be happy to write all noble Lords upon publication of the government response and I encourage noble Lords to take part in the consultation before it closes.
My noble friends Lord Mawhinney and Lady Williams referred to mediation. I take their point. They will know that mediation can mean a number of different things. As part of the proposed contractual requirement, we suggest that providers will have to offer an apology and an explanation and provide further information as appropriate, all in person with the patient, their representative, the relevant clinicians and other hospital or trust representatives as appropriate. That might well involve a mediator. I am all for mediation if legal fees and all the expense and heartache that goes with them can be avoided.
EU: Economy
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Earl Howe
My Lords, other than for GPs, dentists and pharmacists, where use of the logo is voluntary—although it is very widely used—providers of NHS services are required to display the NHS logo as a sign of their commitment to the NHS patients that they treat. That is fine as far as it goes. However, where private services are also being delivered from the same premises, there are clear rules laid down that the NHS logo must be nowhere near any information about those services and that patients have to be absolutely clear what service they are receiving, whether it is NHS or private.
Lord Harris of Haringey
On the basis of that answer, does the noble Earl accept that it is inappropriate for an NHS general practitioner, during an NHS consultation with a patient, to offer their own private, non-evidence-based services instead of an NHS service —in other words, to offer their own private services in the context of an NHS consultation? I speak from personal experience.
Earl Howe
My Lords, except in limited circumstances, which must be set out in their contract, primary medical service contractors—GPs, in other words—cannot directly or indirectly seek or accept from any of their patients a payment or other remuneration for any treatment. The prohibition not only relates to treatment provided under the primary medical services contract but extends to any treatment that may be provided to the patient.
Health and Social Care Bill
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Lord Harris of Haringey
I appreciate that the noble Earl is moving to a position of not addressing those questions, but it is important that he tells the Committee whether the Government have a fixed mind on these matters or whether they are going to approach with an open mind the discussions that we, in an outbreak of consensus, have agreed should happen and try to build on that consensus. If the views are closed, it raises some very difficult issues for the Committee.
Earl Howe
No, my Lords, there are no closed views. That is the reason why I suggested earlier that it was time to reflect and engage in discussions in the spirit of co-operation. I would not have said that if I had had a closed mind to them. There would not have been any point in the discussions. I simply wished to do noble Lords the courtesy of answering their questions and addressing the points that they had made. If noble Lords would rather that I did not do that, then we can make life easier for ourselves. I will certainly write to noble Lords if they would like to inform me afterwards that they wish to receive a letter. If they do not, I will not write. It is entirely up to them. I do not wish to make work for myself unnecessarily.
I have said that I believe the balance of advantage for this Committee lies in our agreeing collectively not to amend the Bill at this stage and I am pleased that there seems to be consensus around that view. I believe instead that it would be profitable for me to engage with noble Lords in all parts of the House, both personally and with the help of my officials, between now and Report to try to reach consensus on these important matters. I would just say to my noble friend Lord Marks that that includes the issues that he has helpfully raised this afternoon. I believe that he is right to associate Clause 4 in particular with the matters that we have been considering. Those discussions can be carried out in an informal way with interested Peers or in individual meetings in the House or my department. There is a place for either type of discussion. My concern is only that it is an inclusive process involving Peers from all sides of the House, and that will include listening to the views of the Constitution Committee should it choose to continue its valuable role.
With that, I hope that no noble Lord will feel cheated by the brevity of my contribution and I shall sit down.
Health and Social Care Bill
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Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield
My Lords, at Second Reading, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, indicated that he wished to put the constitutional position and accountability to Parliament of the Secretary of State beyond doubt. In his letter to your Lordships of 20 October, he repeated his commitment, writing that:
“We are willing to listen and to consider the concerns that have been raised, and make any necessary amendment to put it beyond doubt that the Secretary of State remains responsible and accountable for a comprehensive health service, which we all want to see”.
Perhaps the simplest way of achieving this is to sustain the requirements of the National Health Service Act 2006, as the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, seeks to do.
If successful, this amendment would certainly extend the legislative DNA captured in the pioneering National Health Service Act 1946. However, it can be argued—as it has been by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and others—that the reality of the Secretary of State’s position since the late 1980s requires a reworking of the accountability of the Secretary of State that reflects the fact that successive incumbents have not been direct providers of services for over 20 years. For that reason, a differently crafted amendment, such as the one in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, would be more fitting.
As the Minister has said, the test is the need for this Bill to be unambiguous in capturing the Secretary of State’s core constitutional position and accountabilities at the very apex of the NHS, where policy, administration and money meet. I have great sympathy with the impulses behind the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, but I also think that subsections (2)(a) and (2)(b) of the amendment tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, make the Secretary of State’s accountabilities unambiguous. Therefore, I profoundly hope that the Minister will be able to accept the amendment tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, as Parliament’s instrument for genuinely putting the matter beyond doubt.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I apologise to the House because at Second Reading I inadvertently failed to declare an interest, as I have now been reminded by the Mirror, that I am an adviser to KPMG. I regret that it had slipped my mind as I have never advised it on anything to do with health or any of its global interests that include advising on health matters. I apologise to the House and I hope I have now corrected the omission.
I rise to speak to the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, because this is an issue that requires greater clarity, and the debate and discussion that has already taken place in Committee this evening demonstrates why that is so. As my noble friend Lord Warner has reminded us, Professor Malcolm Grant, the newly appointed chair of the national NHS Commissioning Board, has made clear what appears to be the Government’s intention with regard to the role of the Secretary of State. I assume that he did so under advice, because you do not take on a role like the chair of the NHS Commissioning Board without extensive discussions with Ministers and civil servants. He must have been briefed on the matter and quite clearly the intention is to separate out the day-to-day responsibility and answerability of the Secretary of State. There has to be some clarity on this point.
The noble Lord, Lord Newton, has pointed out that the Secretary of State de facto will be held to account by Parliament because this is about the way in which a budget of £120 billion is spent and disposed of. However, the reason we need—and the public will expect—clarity is that if the Secretary of State’s role is simply to account to Parliament that a sum of money has been passed to the NHS Commissioning Board, that will not be sufficient in holding the Secretary of State to account as to whether that sum of money is the appropriate sum and what the consequences are of not making available appropriate sums of money. That is why I suspect it becomes important.
The noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, has suggested that perhaps the form of words that the noble Baroness has used needs refreshing, because they hark back to the Bill 60 years ago. He suggests that the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, may be better suited to the purpose. However, I have some reservations about the wording used by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, in that he talks about ultimate responsibility. We may have an inkling about what ultimate responsibility means, but I wonder where else in legislation a phrase such as this is used. I defer of course to the noble and learned Lord’s far superior knowledge of the law. However, in my limited experience in this House, I have never before come across the words “holds ultimate responsibility to Parliament”. It seems a very strange usage and I think that there needs to be greater clarity and understanding about what it means. That is why it might be better to revert to the wording chosen by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams. It is tried and tested and at least we understand it.
We also have to recognise that the noble and learned Lord’s amendments helpfully set out the intervention powers and the circumstances in which they will be part of the Secretary of State’s duties, which is all very well. However, intervention powers, by their very nature, occur after the event. Something has already gone wrong.
In our earlier debate—I hesitate to hark back to it—about the role of Health Education England, the Minister told us that the Secretary of State would continuously hold Health Education England to account. However, that is different from having responsibility. Again, we need to be clear on who is answering for that. How will that be done? The fact that the Minister had to stand up and tell us that there are intervention powers, but that of course on a day-to-day basis he would be holding Health Education England to account, suggests that the current form of words in the Bill is simply not accurate.
The final test that your Lordships need to consider is: what do the public expect? The public’s expectation is that government is responsible for what happens in our health service; and unless there are locally elected officials who are responsible for what happens at a local level, they will expect their elected Government to be responsible, and that means the Secretary of State.
Lord Owen
My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate and it has certainly taken the arguments further. I do not think that anybody expects that we will vote tonight, and I think that we will come back to this at Report.
There are merits in both of the cases put forward. In some respects—we can argue about the word “ultimate”—the idea of responsibility to Parliament has merit. It also tallies with the expression used by the noble Lord, Lord Newton. When people realise what the chairman of this largest quango thinks he will do, there will be uproar. Unfortunately, we have not yet been able to read those things—we know about them through reports, but we have not yet read them. It is very clear that the chairman-designate takes the view that he is given the money, he is given the mandate—a three-year mandate which is of course subject to change—and he then decides. It is pretty clear that some people think that that is a very good idea. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, is pretty close to that position.
Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, this is the first time that I have entered this Committee debate, so I declare an interest as the executive director of Cumberlege Connections, which is a training company.
I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Owen, for mentioning micromanagement, because a lot of our debate stretches beyond just the accountability of the Secretary of State to the organisations that are going to be set up that will have devolved powers. I can understand some of the concern felt about financial probity and the money that is going to the National Health Service, £80 billion of which will go to the NHS Commissioning Board. I shall try to provide a little comfort to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and the noble Lord, Lord Harris, who seemed to imply that this money was going to be shelled out by the Secretary of State and he was then going to disappear, leaving no accountability. However, paragraph 14(1) of Schedule 1 states:
“The Secretary of State may require the Board to provide the Secretary of State with such information as the Secretary of State considers it necessary to have for the purposes of the functions of the Secretary of State in relation to the health service”.
Paragraph 14(2) states:
“The information must be provided in such form, and at such time or within such period, as the Secretary of State may require”.
There is clearly an opportunity here for intervention and for the Secretary of State to make sure that probity is being exercised.
Lord Harris of Haringey
But surely that simply states that there shall be a requirement to provide information. It does not then give the Secretary of State a power to intervene. All it means is that one has an informed Secretary of State, which is tremendously helpful, but not a Secretary of State who is able to say, “Well, this is clearly not in the public interest in terms of the way that these moneys have been disbursed”.
Baroness Cumberlege
That is true up to a point, but can you imagine, when the Secretary of State receives that information, that he will do nothing about it? That would be extremely unlikely.
The other thing I would like to say is about the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, on ambiguity and clarity. It seems quite strange to put a word into this Bill that is archaic and no longer used. It no longer serves a purpose, in that what is being done at the moment does not relate to the Secretary of State providing anything. If we are going to be really clear about legislation, surely we want to make sure that the words used are relevant to today. Including the word provide, which is no longer being used—the Secretary of State has powers to provide, but he does not actually provide services—seems a pretty irrelevant and an archaic way of producing legislation. I very strongly support the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern.
Health: Cancer
Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts(13 years, 2 months ago)
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Earl Howe
My noble friend is quite right. It does involve often a number of senior clinicians. The key to diagnosis, however, is to get in early, as I am sure he would recognise. The outcomes strategy commits us to saving the additional 5,000 lives very largely through additional identification of early cancer. In fact, 3,000 of the 5,000 lives that we are hoping to save will be saved, we hope, by earlier diagnosis. A good example of that is that over 90 per cent of bowel cancer patients diagnosed with the earliest stage of the disease survive five years from diagnosis, compared to only 6.6 per cent of those diagnosed with the advanced disease.
Lord Walton of Detchant
Would the noble Earl accept that this country has had a very proud record in carrying out clinical trials, not least in the field of cancer; and that since the passage of the European directive on clinical trials, the problem of getting ethical approval for multi-centred trials—in a variety of different centres—has become immense? Is he aware of the recent report of the Academy of Medical Sciences, from a committee chaired by Sir Michael Rawlins, which has made a number of crucial recommendations? If accepted by the Government, those would make the performance of these trials very much easier.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, there has been no question from the Conservative Benches so perhaps on this occasion we can hear from my noble friend.
Herbal Medicines
Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Earl Howe
My Lords, I do not have the figures, but I am aware of a notorious case on the continent some years ago involving adulterated herbal medicines, which resulted in very serious illness for a number of women. Since 2005, the MHRA has identified 282 cases where products typically marketed as herbal or traditional remedies have been found to be adulterated with random quantities of pharmaceutical substances.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, would it not be more sensible for the noble Earl to present to the House the scientific and medical evidence that suggests that it is indeed sensible to provide any sort of regulatory framework? In the absence of that scientific evidence, would it not be simpler to make it very clear that it is illegal to make false, unfounded health claims in support of any substances and that, if they contain dangerous materials, the individuals promoting them should go to jail?
Earl Howe
That is precisely why we want to consider the possibility of a statutory register for practitioners, to make sure that those who prescribe unlicensed medicines that have been prepared by third parties are fit and proper people to do so. When we make the announcement, as I hope we will shortly, the rationale for it will be set out.
Health: Government Spending
Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts(13 years, 11 months ago)
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Earl Howe
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. He is right to suggest that we should look not at each body individually but perhaps at several across the piece to see whether there is scope for rationalisation in a way that does not detract from the quality of service.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, the noble Earl has frequently argued in this House in favour of there being arm’s-length bodies to protect the patient’s interest in the NHS. Will extra resources be found to enable this aspiration of his—and I am sure, of the coalition’s—to be fully funded?
Earl Howe
My Lords, the budgetary implications of our plans are being worked through at the moment but we are clear that we need to have a more powerful patient voice within the system than at present. I believe that that goes hand-in-hand with our agenda for patient choice, greater quality standards and more information being made available to patients to enable them to make choices.