Online Safety Bill

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 17th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harlech (Con)]

I beg to move that further consideration on Report be adjourned and that the House be adjourned during pleasure until 10.15 pm.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, has the noble Lord, Lord Harlech, seen paragraph 3.1 of the Companion? In case he has not—I know he is very new to this House—it states:

“It is a firm convention”—


not any old convention, but a firm convention—

“that the House normally rises by about 10pm on Mondays to Wednesdays”.

Can he explain why today is so different?

[Lord Harlech (Con)]

I take the noble Lord’s points on board. I think that my noble friend the Chief Whip answered those points at the Dispatch Box earlier today.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

I appreciate that the noble Lord is put in a difficult position, but all the Chief Whip said was that this is usual. When was the last occasion that this had to happen in the way that it is happening tonight?

[Lord Harlech (Con)]

Perhaps this is something to discuss with my noble friend the Chief Whip while the House adjourns during pleasure.

Football Matches: Violence

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Wednesday 14th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The question of budgets and resources is one for the authority and my right honourable friend the Sports Minister to discuss. I will certainly pass on the point made by the noble Lord, but as I say, they have taken action following the review which we commissioned to issue guidance and fact sheets to clubs on some of the action that can be taken to help the situation.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, could the Minister tell us what arrangements he is making to ensure that football clubs pay the proper costs of policing the matches, both inside and outside the grounds, particularly those clubs that are perhaps less assiduous in making sure their fans behave?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

This is a long-standing matter on which we are in discussion with the police, the Home Office and clubs themselves. I will take the point made by the noble Lord back to my right honourable friend the Sports Minister and make sure it is heard again.

CCTV

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The noble Lord is right and highlights another important potential use of this technology. It is right that it is monitored. The ICO has published an opinion on the use of live facial recognition by law enforcement agencies, as well as guidance on the processing of biometric data. We will continue to evaluate that and continue to consider whether further guidance is needed.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, could the Minister just confirm that he saying—I think he is, but it would be helpful if it was clear—that he and the Government accept the huge value for public protection and public safety of the ability of law enforcement to use CCTV and facial recognition techniques? Does he also recognise that the fact that this technology is now out there and is increasingly used by non-law enforcement agencies, by the private sector in all sorts of spaces, is an area that requires at least equivalent, if not stronger, supervision and monitoring?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an important point. I think people would find it very disappointing if commercial organisations were able to use the technology in a way that the police and law enforcement agencies could not, to bring people to justice. We do support its use, but only with careful monitoring. The ICO has an important role to play in that.

UEFA Euro 2020 Final

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Wednesday 30th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The Sports Grounds Safety Authority commissioned on behalf of DCMS research on the sustainability of stewarding—not just in relation to football matches but live events more generally—looking at challenges such as recruitment and retention as well as training and experience, as the noble Lord mentioned. The authority is now working with football’s governing bodies and others to address the challenges identified in the research, and the Government continue to review challenges in the stewarding sector in light of the successful summer of sport that we have just enjoyed.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, what assessment have the Government made of their own activities in respect of that particular football match—for example, the very late decision, pressed on everybody by the Government, to increase the numbers who could attend?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

On the points which the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, raised in relation to the Government and the four recommendations which had action for us, we have outlined our response in our evidence to the Select Committee inquiry, which I have placed in the Library. The noble Baroness’s report was not a report to the Government but to the Football Association, but we have carefully considered the recommendations for us and acted on them in consultation with interested parties.

Online Safety Bill

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Monday 7th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The context shows the importance of preventing financial harm to people, particularly in the current economic climate. When the Bill comes forward from another place, it will be open to scrutiny by noble Lords on this aspect and many others.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister obviously has a very difficult brief to bring before your Lordships’ House. He has barely opened his folder of notes during the course of this Question because all he is able to say is that it is a matter for the business managers, but is it not the case that this is a Bill about which there has been extensive consultation? There is very broad consensus. The only thing now holding it up is an internal row within the Conservative Party. It is not a question of waiting for the business managers. Could he tell his colleagues in the Conservative Party to stop arguing and enable the Bill to be brought forward?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The Bill is being scrutinised in another place by Members of Parliament from all parties. It is important that they complete that work before it comes to your Lordships’ House, but it has benefited from pre-legislative scrutiny by the Joint Committee, which again drew on people from all parties and none. I am keen to see that scrutiny continue in your Lordships’ House.

Online Pornography: Digital Economy Act 2017

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Lord will be aware of the debate, which was about how we challenge in the Bill things that are legal offline while making sure that there is consistency between the online and offline worlds. One of the challenges is that technology is changing very quickly. We have to be honest: sometimes kids are much smarter than their parents. Whatever processes you put in place, a determined child will access this. We have to take all that into account, but we want to focus on child protection. This is why we want to bring back the Online Safety Bill as quickly as possible.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister said that the Government are focusing on the protection of children, but although he listed the reasons why the Digital Economy Act is not perfect and does not cover everything, it is better than nothing. The Government have been faffing around for three years on online safety and not bringing forward the necessary legislation. Why?

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

I fundamentally disagree with the noble Lord. Many noble Lords will be aware that often in legislation there are unintended consequences and things that were unforeseen. I used to do a lot of writing on technology. In fact, I once wrote a book and the moment it was published it was already out of date. That shows just how quickly technology moves on. We want to make sure that we have flexibility. If we were to implement Part 3 of the Act, it would take longer than bringing in the Online Safety Bill. It would also be far too narrow: it would not take account of social media or non-ISPs. Noble Lords might shake their heads, but they are completely wrong on this.

Broadcasting White Paper

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Monday 14th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, one of the things that sets us and the rest of the world apart from countries such as Russia is our commitment to free and fair broadcasting. We are very pleased that RT has been removed from Sky Freeview and Freesat in the UK, which means that Vladimir Putin cannot push out his propaganda on UK networks. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State wrote to the major platforms asking them to do everything they can to prevent access to RT online in the UK, as they have done in Europe, and we are very pleased that Meta and YouTube have taken action and removed RT from their platforms. Therefore we have acted in this area while recognising our commitment to free speech and broadcasting.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

Your Lordships have become very used to listening to answers from the Dispatch Box opposite which sound as though they are lobbing the question into the long grass. The Minister said that technology is moving very rapidly in these areas. Are the Government?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

This is an area in which only five years ago smart speakers were not available and now they are now widely available in people’s houses. The Government are keeping pace with that very rapid change, conducting thorough reviews with stakeholders and considering it carefully. A five-year timeframe for technology that did not previously exist shows that we are acting swiftly in this area.

Digital Technology (Democracy and Digital Technologies Committee Report)

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Friday 11th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Holmes. I listened to his plea about the Elections Bill and how we should take those issues seriously, particularly for blind and partially sighted people, where the Bill in fact worsens their condition and seems to do so deliberately.

I am grateful, of course, to my noble friend Lord Lipsey for introducing this debate but, as he and every speaker have acknowledged, we owe an enormous debt of gratitude to Lord Puttnam, who is watching us from the steps of the Throne. His work in chairing and steering the Select Committee throughout all that we did was exemplary. Our clerking team was magnificent, but he admitted that he had sent them more than 2,000 emails during the course of the inquiry, which gives us some indication of his diligence and theirs in supporting us in that work.

I believe that the report, Digital Technology and the Resurrection of Trust, is a huge and important contribution to debate and discussion about the future of our democracy. Its main recommendations require far more attention than the Government’s rather complacent response would suggest. I want to focus on one narrow area: misinformation and disinformation. Who drives it and who benefits?

In evidence to the committee, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill of Bengarve, distinguished between misinformation—telling you that the moon is made of blue cheese, and honestly believing it—and disinformation, which is knowing full well that the moon is not made of blue cheese but still spreading that as a fact. The committee received clear evidence that the levels of misinformation and disinformation being disseminated, particularly about politics, reduces trust in politicians and public faith in democracy. The pandemic saw a huge rise in levels of misinformation and disinformation: those who do not believe that Covid exists; those who connect it to 5G; or those who believe that vaccines are an attempt by Bill Gates to implant brain-control devices through our arms.

So why does misinformation and disinformation spread? The committee received abundant evidence that the very design of the social media platforms facilitates that spread. The algorithms are designed to maximise the time that people spend on the individual platforms. If you appear to take an interest or to like one type of content, you are served more and more of the same. It may be natural to be curious about so-called conspiracy theories initially, but then you see more and more of the same. The initial nonsense gets apparent reinforcement, so you think that perhaps it must have had some truth—and so it goes on.

The other factor is the deliberate amplification of particular disinformation messages. Sometimes this is because the adherents of a particular viewpoint are more engaged in organising, liking and forwarding such messages, but it is not just about like-minded individuals acting together. Messages can be targeted at particular demographics with a view to influencing or reinforcing political opinions. This was the whole basis of the offer made by Cambridge Analytica: if individuals are already predisposed to voting in a particular way, receiving a barrage of messages may make such a vote more likely. Is that legitimate campaigning? Not if the basis is misinformation that should have been corrected, or if it is wilful disinformation. It can be mechanised, moreover, with armies of bots to spread the message.

Who gains from this and how does it affect our democracy? The objective may be to produce a particular result or it may be designed to undermine faith in the system—in democracy itself. In a hotly contested election or referendum, an anti-democratic overseas power—let us not mince words: Russia—may or may not be keen to see one outcome or another, but it has unequivocally succeeded if, at the end of the process, one side or another believes that the rightful result was stolen and the idea gains hold that democratic processes do not work. That is the process that led to the attack on Capitol Hill in January last year.

How do we combat this? First, the origin of material placed on social media must be clear. Secondly, we should place greater obligations on social media platforms to limit the spread of disinformation. Thirdly, we should encourage the effective countering of that disinformation and misinformation and support the organisations, such as Full Fact, that do that. Fourthly—this was mentioned by several noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, and my noble friend Lady Morris—we should equip citizens, particularly the next generation of citizens, with the skills to be discerning receivers of information and the critical thinking skills to question the origin of dubious assertions.

These were the themes addressed in the committee’s report and they are even more urgent now than they were when we produced it. I just hope that the Minister will do better than the woefully inadequate government response when he closes the debate this afternoon.

Public Representatives: Online Abuse

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Wednesday 16th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I hope that I can reassure the right reverend Prelate. We are absolutely clear that Ofcom, in its role as the regulator here, will be properly resourced. We are also clear that the approach in the Bill provides absolutely clarity, if it did not exist already, for social media companies and others on the expectations for how they enforce their terms and conditions, that there will be clear mechanisms for user redress and that there will be very significant enforcement powers.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, this is not just about MPs, of course. When I was a council leader—admittedly, before social media—receiving abuse and violent threats was common. One individual pursued me in the street and in the supermarket, as well as by phone, with abuse directed at family members and work colleagues, and by pinning up defamatory notices around the locality. He ended up in prison for unrelated violence. He would have relished being able to disseminate his abuse via social media. Of course, social media companies must be much more proactive in dealing with this—I hope that the online safety Bill will help with that—but does the Minister agree that the policing resources available are inadequate for the scale of the problem of dealing with fixated individuals before they escalate to violence? The Metropolitan Police’s parliamentary liaison and investigation team does a wonderful job, but where is its equivalent for local government?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The Government aim to make sure that people can operate in the public sphere safely at all levels, as the noble Lord rightly highlights. We expect the Bill to make a great difference to that when it becomes law. It is clear that, when the police use their existing powers, particularly under the Investigatory Powers Act, they are successful in identifying anonymous users online in particular.

Digital Identification Protocol

Lord Harris of Haringey Excerpts

Thursday 20th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend that this is a prize worth prioritising—although I cannot comment on the specific McKinsey data. On his question about areas for pilots, we are working with a number of sectors and are eager to look into pilots in healthcare, tourism, housing, conveyancing and insurance—but all of this is of course subject to spending review outcomes.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab) [V]]

It is increasingly important for all of us as citizens to be able to simply and securely verify our identity to others and, likewise, that we can always have confidence that the person with whom we are engaged in a transaction is who they say they are. Yet there have been 11 wasted years since the Government scrapped the previous proposals for a secure identity system. Why has there been that waste of time? Can the Minister assure us, the public, that our personal identity data will be secure and not exploited for profit by these new private sector solutions?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I cannot comment on the delay to which the noble Lord refers. What I can say is that we are working at pace and have made considerable progress since our response to the call for evidence in September. As he is aware—the clue is in the name—a fundamental of the “trust framework” is that citizens can trust how their digital ID will be used.