CCTV

Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathcarron]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to commission an independent review of the (1) scale, (2) capabilities, (3) ethics, and (4) impact on rights, of CCTV in the United Kingdom.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay) (Con)]

My Lords, His Majesty’s Government have no plans to commission an independent review of the use of closed circuit television. The Government support the appropriate use of technologies such as CCTV to tackle crime and give the public greater confidence about using our public spaces, provided that its use is lawful, transparent and fair and in accordance with relevant guidelines.

[Lord Strathcarron (Con)]

I thank my noble friend the Minister for the reply. The noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, has already highlighted to the House the dangers posed by Chinese state-owned facial recognition companies Hikvision and Dahua. Is the Minister aware that this technology is now openly available on a far more intrusive smartphone level from other Chinese state-owned companies such as PimEyes? Is he also aware of the very real threats this will pose—and not just to politically exposed persons such as your Lordships? Absolutely anybody can be tracked and traced anywhere at any time. It is not hyperbolic to say that, if left unchecked, these applications will entirely alter our concept of privacy and be open sesame to snoopers, stalkers, blackmailers, cybercriminals and bad actors of every kind.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

All organisations in the UK that possess personal data have to comply with the requirements of our data protection legislation. The Information Commissioner’s Office is our independent regulator for data protection and is responsible for providing advice and guidance on compliance with the law. The ICO is currently considering whether PimEyes’ practices may raise data protection concerns. I hope that my noble friend will understand that it is not appropriate for me to comment on an ongoing ICO investigation.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister understand that these mostly Chinese smart cameras have the triple vices of being incredibly intrusive, incredibly unreliable and racially discriminatory? In the light of that, would he perhaps think again about the question from the noble Lord, Lord Strathcarron, and perhaps give a rather more urgent and pertinent response?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

It is an urgent matter and it is being looked at currently by the ICO. It would be wrong for me to comment on that ongoing investigation, but it is being dealt with swiftly. We are also taking urgent action across government, and my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster set out in a Statement on 24 November the action that we are taking with relation to Chinese equipment in public sites.

[Lord German (LD)]

My Lords, the Surveillance Camera Commissioner recently reported on a survey of police forces in England and Wales. Despite the commissioner’s strong belief that surveillance technology had to be used in a way that maintains the trust and confidence of our communities, the commissioner found that there is no universal approach to due diligence across the police forces of this country. Does the Minister agree that a universal approach is necessary and sensible? If so, how will the Government achieve it?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

All police forces are compelled to follow data protection legislation, which is regulated by the Information Commissioner’s Office. They must also comply with human rights and equalities legislation, which is regulated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. So there is a universal application of those across all forces.

[The Lord Bishop of Manchester]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chair of the Greater Manchester Police independent ethics committee. Can the Minister tell us what the Government’s assessment is of the use of CCTV in conjunction with live facial recognition technology by police across the UK, and what legal safeguards are in place to ensure that fundamental rights are upheld?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

Polls show that there is public support and, indeed, an expectation on the police to use technology such as this, particularly from victims and their families, to prevent, detect and investigate crime. There is a comprehensive legal framework covering its use. The noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, mentioned the potential for bias against people from ethnic minority backgrounds. When using it, police must comply with the public sector equality duty, and a human operator is also important in this regard.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, can I first confess that I encouraged the spread of CCTV, because I knew of the demand that comes from potential victims? However, that was before smart CCTV and facial recognition. As the right reverend Prelate said, they introduce a major new dimension of potential intrusion into privacy. I accept that the ICO is reviewing this, but I remind the Minister that ultimately this will be a political decision, taken in the context of the extensive surveillance by the Chinese Government of their own and other people. Will he give it the utmost priority when the ICO has reported?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The noble Lord is right to point to the importance of CCTV in the detection and prosecution of crime. Of course, as technology improves, so does the reliability and its use in criminal investigations—but so do the risks. That is why the Information Commissioner’s Office plays its important role in monitoring it. We will continue to evaluate the continued use of technologies such as live facial recognition and consider the need for further guidance, should that be needed.

[Lord Bellingham (Con)]

Could my noble friend the Minister expound further on that last reply and tell the House how many very serious crimes last year, including murder and GBH, were solved as a result of CCTV?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I do not have those figures to hand, but I imagine that they are substantial, and I shall find out and write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, there is an opportunity here for the Government to get something right. The Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Bill received Royal Assent, as the Minister knows, in early December. Its security provisions are designed to improve the security of smart products—a category that includes CCTV doorbells. Is the Minister able to provide some updates on commencement of Part 1 of the Act, or on the laying of relevant regulations and guidance, given that this will be the subject of some intense debate—and given, too, the potential privacy issues that will arise if security vulnerabilities in personal CCTV products can be exploited, as we now know, by bad actors?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I cannot provide an update on dates by which those things will be commenced, but the noble Lord is right to point to the legislation that we have taken through, which grapples with this important topic, the scrutiny given in Parliament and the change that it will make to the regulation of these sensitive technologies.

[Lord Watson of Wyre Forest (Lab)]

My Lords, is it an appropriate use of CCTV facial recognition technology to identify children entitled to free school meals in our schools?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I not aware that that is being done, but that is a matter for the Department for Education. I will refer the noble Lord’s point to the department.

[Baroness Fox of Buckley (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, just to clarify the answers to some of the questions, I think all of us can understand that using CCTV to catch criminals and help victims is something that has become the norm. But the Minister has been asked whether the new technology changes things. Secondly, is there not a danger of a creep towards the surveillance of innocent people, which would not be something that the Government would endorse or condone?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

There is a hugely important role for CCTV in providing assurance for people that our streets are safe, that our public spaces are being monitored and that, if crimes are committed, the people who commit them will be captured and brought to justice. That is a great reassurance to people as they go about their lawful business.

[Lord Hogan-Howe (CB)]

My Lords, I agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Reid, said and what the original questioner said, which is that this is probably not a bad time to think seriously about the application of facial recognition with CCTV. Does the Minister agree that it is not only about crime? It is also an opportunity to find missing people and sometimes, on places such as the Tube and in other places, people who have fallen ill. CCTV has many benefits, but I agree that it needs proper control and accountability.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The noble Lord is right and highlights another important potential use of this technology. It is right that it is monitored. The ICO has published an opinion on the use of live facial recognition by law enforcement agencies, as well as guidance on the processing of biometric data. We will continue to evaluate that and continue to consider whether further guidance is needed.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, could the Minister just confirm that he saying—I think he is, but it would be helpful if it was clear—that he and the Government accept the huge value for public protection and public safety of the ability of law enforcement to use CCTV and facial recognition techniques? Does he also recognise that the fact that this technology is now out there and is increasingly used by non-law enforcement agencies, by the private sector in all sorts of spaces, is an area that requires at least equivalent, if not stronger, supervision and monitoring?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an important point. I think people would find it very disappointing if commercial organisations were able to use the technology in a way that the police and law enforcement agencies could not, to bring people to justice. We do support its use, but only with careful monitoring. The ICO has an important role to play in that.