Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Hampton Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 18th December 2024 Grand Committee

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)]

My Lords I have been very impressed by the speeches of my noble friends Lady Kidron and Lord Freyberg, so I will be very brief. I declare in interest as a television producer who produces content. I hope that it has not been scraped up by AI machines, but who knows? I support the amendments in this group.

I know that AI is going to solve many problems in our economy and our society. However, in their chase for the holy grail of promoting AI, I join other noble Lords in asking the Government not to push our creative economy under the bus. It is largely made up of SMEs and single content producers, who do not have the money to pursue powerful AI companies to get paid for the use of their content in training their AI models. It is up to noble Lords to help shape regulations that protect our data and copyright laws and can be fully deployed in the defence of the creative economy.

I too have read the Government’s Copyright and Artificial Intelligence consultation paper, published yesterday. The foreword says:

“The proposals include a mechanism for rights holders to reserve their rights”,


which I, like my noble friend Lady Kidron and others, interpret as meaning that creators’ works can be used by AI developers unless they opt out and require licensing for the use of their work. The Government are following the EU example and going for the opt-out model. I think that the European Union is beginning to realise that it is very difficult to make that work, and it brings an unfairness to content producers. Surely, the presumption should be that AI web crawlers should get agreement before using content. The real problem is that content producers do not even know when their content has been used. Even the AI companies sometimes do not know what content has been used. Surely, the opt-out measure is like having your house raided and then asking the burglar what he has taken.

I call on the Minister to work with us to create an opt-in regime. Creators’ works should be used only when already licensed by the AI companies. The companies say they usually do not use content, only data points. Surely that is like saying to a photographer, “We’ve used 99% of the pixels in a picture but not the whole picture”. If even one pixel is used, the photographer needs to know and be compensated.

The small companies and single content producers of our country are the backbone of our economy, as other noble Lords have said. They are threatened by this technology, in which we have placed so much faith. I ask the Minister to respond favourably to Amendments 204, 205 and 206 to ensure that we have fairness between some of the biggest AI players in the world and the hard-pressed people who create content.

[Lord Hampton (CB)]

My Lords, I support Amendments 204, 205 and 206 in the names of my noble friends Lady Kidron and Lord Freyberg, and of the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Clement-Jones, in what rapidly seems to be becoming the Cross-Bench creative club.

I spent 25 years as a professional photographer in London from the late 1980s. When I started, retouchers would retouch negatives and slides by hand, charging £500 an hour. Photoshop stopped that. Professional film labs such as Joe’s Basement and Metro would work 24 hours a day. Snappy Snaps and similar catered for the amateur market. Digital cameras stopped that. Many companies provided art prints, laminating and sundry items for professional portfolios. PDFs and websites stopped that. Many different forms of photography, particularly travel photography, were taken away when picture libraries cornered the market and drove down commissions to unsustainable levels. There were hundreds if not thousands of professional photographers in the country. The smartphone has virtually stopped that.

All these changes were evolution and the result of a world becoming more digitised, but AI web crawlers are different, illegally scraping images without consent or payment then potentially killing the trade of the victim by setting up in competition. This is a parasite, but not in the true sense, because a parasite is careful to keep its victims alive.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I very much support these amendments. I declare an interest as an owner of written copyright in the Good Schools Guide and as a father of an illustrator. In both contexts, it is very important that we get intellectual property right, as I think the Government recognised in what they put out yesterday. However, I share the scepticism of those who have spoken as to whether the Government’s ideas can be made to work.

It is really important that we get this straight. For those of us operating at the small end of the scale, IP is under continual threat from established media. I write maybe 10 or a dozen letters a year to large media outfits reminding them of the borders, the latest to the Catholic Herald—it appears not even the 10 commandments have force on them. But what AI can do is a huge measure more difficult to deal with. I can absolutely see, by talking to Copilot, that it has gone through my paywall and absorbed the contents of the Good Schools Guide, but who am I supposed to go at for this? Who has actually done the trespassing? Who is responsible for it? Where is the ownership? It is difficult to enforce copyright, even by writing a polite letter to someone saying, “Please don’t do this”. The Government appear to propose a system of polite letters saying, “Oh dear, it looks as if you might have borrowed my copyright. Please, can you give it back?”

This is not practically enforceable, and it will not result in people who care about IP locating their businesses here. Quite clearly, we do not have ownership of the big AI systems, and it is unlikely that we will have ownership of them—all that will be overseas. What we can do is create IP. If we produce a system where we do not defend the IP that we produce, then fairly rapidly, those IP creators who are capable of being mobile will go elsewhere to places that will defend their IP. It is something that a Government who are interested in growth really ought to be interested in defending. I hope that we will see some real progress in the course of the Bill going through the House.