Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Hamilton of Epsom and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd January 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, which reflects previous debates in Committee. It started with the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, being worried that GBE will invest badly, not make money and invest in speculative projects, which he thought the Treasury might encourage it to do. My experience of the Treasury is that that is not how it works out in practice. Our challenge is encouraging the Treasury to make investment decisions, and the scrutiny with which it approaches this matter can be described as vigorous.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Does the Minister anticipate that the Treasury will have a veto on anything that Great British Energy invests in?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

No, I do not imagine the Treasury will have a veto, but I think it will keep a careful eye on the work of GBE. I have already mentioned in previous debates the number of controls that will be in place.

Noble Lords argue this many ways around, but we are trying to reach a middle ground where we get the benefits of a company with people on the board who are very experienced in this area making hard-headed commercial decisions, because we want GBE to be successful and to make a profit. On the other hand, it is also a public sector body accountable to the Secretary of State and therefore subject to the normal public sector controls. The skill of the GBE board will be to find a way through this, and that is why we wish to give it as much operational independence as possible.

At the risk of repeating myself on the cost issue, in its whole-system analysis undertaken for the previous Government, my department concluded that a renewables-led system, complemented by flexible technologies to ensure that supply and demand are balanced, alongside technology such as nuclear, would form the cheapest foundation for a future decarbonised power grid. Since that analysis was published, a range of external commentators, such as Energy Systems Catapult and the Climate Change Committee, have published analysis which reaches similar conclusions.

Noble Lords have quoted Dieter Helm and other commentators but I believe that there is a general consensus on the broad make-up of the most cost-effective future systems, although there will be some disagreement over potential technologies in future. For instance, the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, raised hydrogen, and, in our short debate on small modular reactors in the House this afternoon, there was a question about value for money in their development. I readily accept that; however, we think that the general mix is the most cost-effective way to go forward.

Amendment 118B seeks to add after Clause 7 a new clause that would prevent GBE investing in any project that relies wholly or in part on government subsidies. I am not in favour of that. First, GBE is operationally independent, so commercial investment decisions need to be made separately from government decisions on subsidy provision. Secondly, GBE will be focused on driving clean energy deployment through its functions. The Government provide different subsidies in different ways across the energy market, so limiting GBE’s activities to areas where there are no government subsidies would unnecessarily constrain the company.

Coming back to a point from the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, the advice we have had from the Climate Change Committee is that CCUS would enable us to have the lowest-cost pathway to net zero. It described it as

“a necessity, not an option”

for maintaining our climate commitments.

The way in which GBE will interact with existing and new government policies and influence the energy system will clearly be determined on a case-by-case basis. We will clarify the relationship between existing schemes and GBE in due course. I assure the Committee that we are currently seeking advice on Great British Energy’s compliance with the Subsidy Control Act in both its establishment and operation.

Amendments 129 and 130 propose additions to Clause 8. In essence, they seek to delay the commencement of the Act until the Secretary of State publishes a report on the appropriateness of further government subsidy for offshore wind developments, as well as a comprehensive report detailing the full costs to consumers and taxpayers of the UK renewable energy industry. Noble Lords will not be surprised to hear that I resist these amendments. We want to see Great British Energy get set up as quickly as possible and get on with the job. Frankly, I do not see it as necessary for those reports to be published.

On Amendment 129, as I said in our debate on the previous group, we are committed to increasing radically the deployment of offshore wind, which provides us with secure, domestically generated electricity. As I have already mentioned, we want 42 to 50 gigawatts of offshore wind by 2030, up from 15 gigawatts today. The contracts for difference scheme is the Government’s main mechanism for supporting new renewable electricity generation projects. We continue to evolve that scheme to ensure that it is aligned with the Government’s wider objectives. In addition, the clean power action plan that we published last year reconfirmed our view, and that of NESO, that clean power can be delivered by 2030 without increasing costs to the consumer and with scope for lower bills.

Overall, I really think that GBE should now be allowed to get on with the job. I do not believe that putting in amendments that would prevent it investing in schemes that attract subsidies is the right way forward. The Government would certainly resist that.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, my concerns remain. This is such a thin Bill and commits the Government to so little—other than spending other people’s money in inordinate quantities—that one can see the potential for things going wrong very easily. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I speak to the two amendments in my name. The first, Amendment 126, is about the jobs in Aberdeen. Unfortunately, this amendment gets involved only in the number of jobs that are created by Great British Energy in Aberdeen. As my noble friend Lord Trenchard has already referred to, it does not make any reference to the number of jobs that have already been destroyed by the Secretary of State for Energy in not granting any more licences in the North Sea, which will have—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

It is all very well the noble Lord saying that, but I remind him that a lot of jobs were lost on the UK continental shelf during his Government’s stewardship.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Yes, but the fact that a number have gone already because the industry is declining is not a compelling reason for destroying even more, in my view—but I hear what the Minister says.

Of course, this contrasts tremendously with the inaugural address from President Trump, saying, “Drill, baby, drill”. He is quite keen on expanding the oil industry in the United States, which is interesting because he slightly gives the impression that the United States has been rather laggardly in producing oil. I have some quite interesting statistics from the Library that indicate that, throughout the Biden years, despite all the green initiatives that were produced, the United States was actually the biggest producer of oil in the world. In 2020, it produced 11.3 million barrels a day, and in 2023 it produced 12.9 million barrels a day. Of that, it was using about 8 or 9 million barrels for its own consumption and exporting the rest. The idea being put out by the Trump regime that drilling for oil will somehow be a new venture is quite interesting; it has been going on, fit to bust, under the Biden Administration—you slightly wonder how that ties in with all the green credentials that he was boasting about, when they were producing these vast quantities of oil. They were way ahead of the Russians, who were the second-biggest producer of oil, at about 10 million barrels a day.

We are now in an interesting situation, as there seems to be a recognition by the Trump regime that we will go on needing hydrocarbons and oil way into the future. At the end of the day, the idea that we can somehow phase all this out in this country slightly defies credibility because, as we have discussed already, the reserves of oil are higher than they have ever been, and we will go on needing it for quite some time. It is rather extraordinary that we do not produce our own oil in the North Sea for our requirements. As it is, we will have to import it from other places, creating CO₂ emissions and so forth on the way.

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[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I do listen carefully to what noble Lords have said. Our final debate in Committee, as the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, suggests, takes us back to some of the early debates and concerns that noble Lords have. I am particularly grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, for his support. The point he made is that the cost of doing nothing will, in the end, be much more expensive than the cost of net zero. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, that sticking to oil and gas is certainly not a free lunch, either. The noble Earl also pointed to the declining reserves in the UK continental shelf. This is a fact of life and why there were losses of jobs in Aberdeen under the previous Government. I will come back to the issue of Aberdeen in a moment.

Clearly, the effect of the amendments will be to defer the commencement of most provisions in the Bill until several requirements have been met. They include the laying before and approval by Parliament of a framework document and statement of strategic priorities, the publication of an outline statement of strategic priorities, the publication of an assessment on the expected impact of the Act on the number of jobs in Aberdeen and the publication of a report on the cost and viability of the Government’s net-zero targets. We have already discussed many of these matters in Committee and the Committee will be aware of the Government’s views and intents on this.

Our aim is to get this Bill on the statute book as soon as we can. It is also our clear intention that the statement of strategic priorities cannot be produced without the full involvement of Great British Energy in order to get its expertise, including that of the newly appointed non-executive directors, to inform the statement. This is why we do not believe that we can publish the statement of strategic priorities either during the passage of the Bill or before Royal Assent. Once parliamentary approval is given, we will ensure that we move as quickly as we possibly can to produce the statement.

On accountability, in the end, Ministers will agree with the statement that we are accountable to Parliament. I do not think your Lordships’ House is backward in holding Ministers to account for what they do. We have the Select Committee process, there are numerous opportunities for scrutiny of what we decide in relation to the statement and, of course, the statement is also subject to revision from time to time.

On the framework document, I suppose I can only repeat what I said before. We are committed to producing a framework document. It will, as framework documents do, cover the governance structure, the requirements for reporting and information sharing, and the financial responsibilities and controls. I have given this assurance from the Dispatch Box, so that is a government statement of what is going to happen. The framework document will be extensive and will follow the normal course of action. I hope that assures noble Lords that everything is being done in a proper way and with proper accountability, ensuring that Great British Energy is subject to the appropriate controls—as is only right for a body that is ultimately responsible to the Secretary of State for its activities.

We think that it is a very good thing that GBE will be based in Aberdeen; a significant proportion of GBE’s staff will certainly be based there. We think that Aberdeen will benefit from new jobs in the economy created because of GBE’s investment in renewable energy projects. I understand and very much accept the need to ensure, as we have talked about, a just transition for the people involved in the oil and gas sector. We want to do everything we can to enable offshore workers to lead the world in the industries of the future, which is why we are working very hard with businesses, employees and workers to manage our existing fields for the entirety of their lifetime and are putting in place programmes to support a transition. It is interesting that research from Robert Gordon University shows that 90% of oil and gas workers have medium to high transferable skills for offshore renewable jobs; knowing the skills that people who work in the North Sea bring to the jobs they do, that does not surprise me.

This is all I will say to the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, in relation to President Trump’s decisions: it is interesting that, in his first term, the US actually saw quite a drive into renewable energy. It may be that we will still see the same direction under the new Administration in the end; that is for the US Government to decide. We as a Government are sticking to the Paris Agreement and to the need to get to net zero and clean power as soon as we possibly can.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

There are interesting comments in the press that, although President Trump is committed to increasing the amount of oil the United States produces, that is very much dependent on the price. The frackers of oil and gas in the United States will frack it if they can get a good price for it; if the price drops, they will hold back, so it does not follow that he will actually increase the oil production of the United States by saying, “Drill, baby, drill”.

Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Hamilton of Epsom and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Committee stage
Monday 13th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath) (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Russell, because it seems to me that we have “enjoyed” what essentially has been a rerun of previous debates, with Second Reading-type speeches, when the key concern, as the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, suggests, is Clause 6 and the power of direction.

So I do want to come back to the intent of Clause 6. First, we want GBE to be operationally independent. A founding principle of GBE is that it should be independent as far as possible in executing its functions. The Bill is focused on making the minimum necessary provisions to establish the company. At Second Reading, some noble Lords opposite accused the Government of drafting the Bill in a way that meant we would use Clause 6 to micromanage GBE. We have always maintained, as the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, rightly pointed out, that this is a backstop provision, yet now noble Lords opposite seek to micromanage both the Government and GBE by these various amendments, most of the issues in which we have already debated.

Secondly, we have set up GBE as a company for long-term success and as an enduring institution. Some of the amendments, which include short-term targets, would be wholly inappropriate in legislation. Indeed, it would be more appropriate for the Secretary of State to set priorities via the statement of strategic priorities in Clause 5, of course within the framework of Clause 3.

My third point is the intended use of the power in Clause 6. Let me make it absolutely clear, as I have done in the past, that the power to give directions to GBE is intended only for urgent or unforeseen circumstances. These amendments would widen the intention unnecessarily. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, is right about the relationship between government and such organisations. She and I have both had experience in relation to the NHS; it is a slightly different set-up, but we are talking about the relationship between a government department, the Secretary of State and public bodies. She will know that there the Secretary of State has always had a power of direction, but I think it has had to be used only a handful of times. The reason of course is that chief execs of NHS bodies understand that the Secretary of State is able to set the overall direction of the National Health Service without having to call on what is essentially a backstop power.

My fourth point on a number of the amendments is that the existing reporting requirements are set out in the Bill, which makes provision for GBE to produce and publish an annual report and accounts. They will undergo external audit; they will contain information on the activity of the company over the year; and they will also include reporting in line with the recommendations of the Task Force on Climate-Related Financial Disclosures. GBE may also make information available through reporting, such as when projects or investments are announced. We think that that is sufficient accountability.

On some points raised by noble Lords on Amendment 59, we believe that in an unstable world, the only way to guarantee our energy security and protect bill payers permanently is to speed up the transition from fossil fuels to home-grown clean energy. This is consistent with advice from the Climate Change Committee and it is why we have set an ambitious target to reach clean power by 2030, which the independent NESO considers achievable. We believe that the key role of BGE is focused on driving forward deployment.

I say to the noble Viscount, Lord Trenchard, and the noble Lord, Lord Howell, that I agree with them on the importance of nuclear power. But I say to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, that this is the second time he has tried to divert the Government from supporting Sizewell C. I say to him that this is a massive development and we are moving to final investment decisions over the next few months. It will produce 3.2 gigawatts, it is a replica of Hinkley Point C, 80% above ground, and we have the regulated asset-based approach which will bring in private sector expertise and disciplines. So, in agreeing with him on the importance of small modular reactors and advanced nuclear reactors, we should not underestimate the potential of Sizewell C—and indeed Hinkley Point C when it comes on line, I hope at the end of this decade.

Of course I take the points that data centres will need a lot of electricity, that grid capacity issues are vital and that we need more investment in the grid. I also take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, about the beauty, or not, of pylons. I of course accept the point he makes, but we are going to have to have more pylons. None the less, they will have to go through vigorous planning and meet environmental protection requirements.

On jobs and Amendment 60, GBE aims to revitalise the UK’s industrial areas and we think that, by situating its headquarters in Aberdeenshire—which I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, will welcome—it will be able to leverage the skilled workforce available there and throughout Scotland. More broadly, we have set up the Office for Clean Energy Jobs to promote clean energy employment and focus on skills development and training in the core energy and net-zero sectors.

Amendments 61 and 76 concern supply chains, which are of course very important indeed. GBE’s founding statement has already made it clear that my department expects the company to prioritise the development of supply chains and to report to government on progress. To come to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, of course we have debated these matters over the years and I absolutely understand where he is coming from. But it will be for GBE as an operationally independent company to determine the projects and technologies it chooses to invest in, in accordance with its objectives. It will be expected to respect human rights under the Human Rights Act 1998 and it will be subject to the provisions on forced labour and supply chains, both under the Modern Slavery Act 2015 and the Procurement Act 2023.

We recently set out our Clean Power 2030 Action Plan, which requires significant deployment of solar electricity—noble Lords are right on that. Developing sustainable, diverse and resilient solar supply chains, free from forced labour, is important for the Government. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, knows, we also have the Solar Taskforce, which will be looking at these matters.

On Amendment 63 on the cost of fulfilling the company’s strategic objectives, I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Petitgas, that the Secretary of State will set ambitious but achievable objectives for Great British Energy that can be achieved through the funding envelope. GBE will be backed, as noble Lords will know, by a capitalisation of £8.3 billion over this Parliament, and its objective is to crowd in additional private sector investment. However, it will be subject to HM Treasury’s value-for-money guidelines and, like existing publicly financed institutions, its investments will be subject to safeguards and risk assessments.

On Amendments 69, 70 and 85A, on the impact on carbon emissions of GBE’s investments, the company is committed to advancing the deployment of clean energy to aid the Government’s goal of decarbonising our electricity system by 2030. The amendments would require a report to be produced for every investment made by Great British Energy, which seems neither proportionate nor effective. On importing energy into the UK, we acknowledge that reliance on imported fossil fuels presents economic and security risks, as evidenced by the situation following the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The best response is to increase domestic power generation through renewable energy sources and nuclear power, while simultaneously transitioning to more sustainable methods for heating homes, fuelling vehicles and powering industry. These can substantially mitigate our exposure to volatile international markets and energy price fluctuations. We see GBE as being at the heart of those efforts.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Does the Minister accept, however, that converting oilseed rape into aviation fuel does not produce clean energy?

Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Hamilton of Epsom and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Committee stage
Tuesday 17th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I do not really know why the noble Lord is baffled by what I said. I thought I clearly said that we wish Great British Energy to have as much operational independence as possible, within the constraints of Clauses 3 and 5. At this stage, I cannot tell him what will be in the statement of strategic priorities, because it is being worked on, but it will have sufficient detail to make absolutely clear the Government’s priorities within the constraints I have suggested, while allowing Great British Energy the breadth and room to move in the way it thinks best.

On the issue of jobs, which my noble friend Lord Whitty was absolutely right to raise, all the organisations he mentioned have a role to play to ensure not just that we create the required jobs but that we can fill them. The issue is not so much lacking jobs for the future but enabling enough people to come forward to be given the right training and skills to fill them as effectively as possible. There is a clear message in the action plan we published last week:

“The wider transition to net zero is expected to support hundreds of thousands of jobs, with Clean Power 2030 playing a key part in stimulating a wealth of new jobs and economic opportunities across the country. These jobs will cross a range of skill levels and occupations, including technical engineers at levels 4-7 … along with electrical, welding, and mechanical trades at levels 2-7, and managerial roles including project and delivery managers at levels 4-7. Many of these occupations are already in high demand across other sectors”.


We have within the department the Office for Clean Energy Jobs, whose role is to co-ordinate action to develop a skilled workforce to support and develop our clean power mission.

I should mention the nuclear industry. I am at risk of repeating myself, but other noble Lords have enjoyed doing that during our deliberation. The Nuclear Skills Taskforce calculated that we need 40,000 extra people working in the nuclear sector—civil and defence— by 2030. That is in five years’ time. That goes up into the 2040s. There is a huge job to be done, and I believe it is my department’s role to work with industry and all the other organisations to spearhead that.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Does the noble Lord share my concern that the nuclear power station being built in Somerset is costing four times as much as an identical one in South Korea? Does he have any plans to bring the price down for future nuclear power stations?

Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Hamilton of Epsom and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Is it not the case that the Secretary of State can override the chair of Great British Energy?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

The noble Lord is referring to a power of direction. We are coming on to relevant amendments later in the Bill, but let me make it clear that this power is often contained in legislation, although we believe it will be used very rarely indeed. I certainly would not expect it to be used. I think the noble Lord is suggesting that the Secretary of State will attempt to micromanage Great British Energy through the power of direction. I simply do not believe that this will happen under any Secretary of State.

I listened to what the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, said about duplication. At the beginning, we think it is sensible for GBE to use the National Wealth Fund’s expertise. He suggested that this is duplication; I think it is a pragmatic, sensible approach. We have certain expertise within the National Wealth Fund that can help as we establish GBE, but they are complementary functions. Having listened to the debate, I can assure noble Lords that my department will work closely with His Majesty’s Treasury to provide clarity to the market on how the two institutions will complement each other, and set out how this relationship will evolve in time.

I turn to Amendments 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Offord, Lord Vaux and Lord Cameron. There was an interesting discussion about whether GBE could or should be allowed to raise equity through the sale of shares while it remained majority-owned by the Crown. Amendment 3 proposes enabling external equity ownership of Great British Energy without its losing its status as a Crown-owned company. Similarly, Amendments 4, 6 and 7 specify enabling third-party ownership of up to 25% of the shares in Great British Energy without its losing its status as a Crown-owned company. Amendment 5 seeks to specify that Great British Energy is owned by the Secretary of State, rather than by the Crown.

We do not think that it is necessary for Great British Energy to sell its own shares to bring in external equity funding, or any funding, for its projects. In the case of the example which the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, gave, it would, though, be possible for Great British Energy to encourage private sector investment into the scheme to which he referred, or to co-invest with external partners, each taking an equity stake in a project that Great British Energy wished to support. I understand that the model has been used successfully by similar bodies, such as the former Green Investment Bank.

Clause 4 enables the Secretary of State to provide financial assistance to Great British Energy. This is so it can take action to meet its objectives. To be clear, our intention is for Great British Energy to become financially self-sufficient in the long term. It will invest in projects that expect a return on investments, but it would be prudent to ensure that the Secretary of State has the power to provide further financial support, if required.

Just as private sector companies would rely on the financial strength of their corporate group to raise funds, that could be the case for providing GBE with further financial support for specific projects in the future. However, we believe that any such financial assistance should be provided by the Secretary of State and, as such, be subject to the usual governance and control principles applicable to public sector bodies, such as His Majesty’s Treasury’s Managing Public Money.

It is also unnecessary to specify that Great British Energy is owned by the Secretary of State rather than the Crown. The Bill simply follows normal legislative practice in its drafting. For instance, Section 317 of the Energy Act 2023, which the Government of the noble Lord, Lord Offord, took through, expresses the ownership requirement for Great British Nuclear in the same way. Other legislation, including Section 6 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, uses the same formulation. Clause 1(6) of the Bill explains that

“wholly owned by the Crown”

means that each share is held by a Minister of the Crown, which includes the Secretary of State, or a company wholly owned by the Crown, or a nominee of either of those categories.

We also think that it is entirely appropriate for the Secretary of State to be the sole shareholder in Great British Energy. I very much agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, on this. Introducing minority third party ownership, whether held by one minority shareholder or several, would add unnecessary complexity to its governance. A shareholder agreement or agreements would need to be put in place. They would need to cover elements relating to the control of Great British Energy, setting out which matters required approval of a simple majority of shareholders and which might require unanimous consent. For an organisation such as Great British Energy, playing such a key part in our mission to deploy clean energy—I take note of what noble Lords have said about parliamentary accountability—is it not surely right that Ministers both are accountable for their actions and can exercise full shareholder rights?

This has been an interesting debate. I am aware of noble Lords’ issues around the role of Great British Energy and the National Wealth Fund and its ability to draw in private sector investments, but we think—and it was a manifesto commitment—that this is a very important body that should stand alone. We are grateful that the National Wealth Fund is able to provide some support at the moment, but we think that this is the right way forward.

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[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, that was an interesting debate, led by the noble Lord, Lord Frost, proposing an addition to Clause 1 which would set Great British Energy’s objectives as

“reducing household energy costs in a sustainable way, and … promoting the United Kingdom’s energy security”.

The noble Lord asked why we are doing this. He then, to be fair, referred to the—I think three—debates we have had on energy policy in the last few weeks, in which we clearly set out our aims and drive towards clean power and net zero. We see Great British Energy, with the provision of financial assistance from the Secretary of State, as being at the heart of our clean power mission. It will speed up the deployment of mature and new technologies, as well as local energy projects. It will support the Government’s aim of decarbonising our electricity system by 2030, while ensuring we can meet future demand as we further decarbonise the economy.

I noted the intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, and I thought I detected some scepticism about net zero. I remind him that his party, over 14 years, has made various statements in support of net zero. I note that Mrs Thatcher, at the UN General-Assembly in November 1989, said:

“the environmental challenge which confronts the whole world”—

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for giving way again. I think he will be the first to acknowledge that two wrongs do not make a right.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, it was more than two. I can quote Prime Minister May, and I acknowledge her leadership in this country being the first to enshrine the 2050 net-zero carbon target. Prime Minister Johnson only recently addressed COP 26 in Glasgow; I think we all acknowledge the leadership the noble Lord, Lord Sharma, showed there. The noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, announced to the UN the £11.6 billion in international climate finance for the period 2021-22. Although we are having this friendly discussion about future energy policy, there is still some consensus on the need to decarbonise our energy supply, and Great British Energy is part of the way we are going to do it.

The key thing in the structure of the Bill is the objectives set in Clause 3. They will be informed by the statement of strategic priorities that Great British Energy will operate in, making sure that it will be aligned with the Government’s priorities. We have been clear that the first statement, which will be published in 2025—after due consultation and discussion with the devolved Governments and with Jürgen Maier, the chair of Great British Energy—will ensure that GBE is focused on driving clean energy deployment to boost energy independence, create jobs and ensure that UK taxpayers, bill payers and communities reap the benefits of clean, secure, home-grown energy.

Of course, the issue of energy bills is very important. We are relying strongly on the advice of the Climate Change Committee, of which the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, is probably not a great fan—but none the less, over 14 years his party listened to it. The committee said that a clean energy future is the best way to make Britain energy independent, protecting bill payers, creating good jobs and tackling the climate crisis.

The independent National Energy System Operator confirmed a few weeks ago that our 2030 clean power goal is achievable and can create a cheaper, more secure energy system. More broadly, the OBR—another body to which the previous Government paid great attention; they ran into trouble when they did not—highlighted that delayed action on reaching net zero will have significant negative fiscal and economic impacts. The Committee on Climate Change has said that the net costs of the transition, including upfront investment, ongoing running costs and costs of financing, will be less than 1% of GDP over the entirety of 2020 to 2050—lower, it said, than it concluded in its 2019 Net Zero report.

I have already said that we will publish the statement of priorities in 2025. How will GBE be judged? It will be judged on its performance against the statement of priorities within the context of the objectives set by Clause 3.

Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Hamilton of Epsom and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Can I ask my noble friend why the new power station in Somerset is costing four times as much as an identical one in South Korea? Surely this will add to energy costs, not detract from them.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I am not sure which “noble friend” that was aimed at, but I will have a go if the noble Lord likes. I was at the department when we started talking about Hinkley many years ago. Two or three things happened. First, it took an awfully long time to come to a final investment decision. Secondly, EDF thought it could bring a design model from France and place it in Hinkley Point C without having to make design changes. The reality was that it had to make thousands of design changes because of the requirements of the regulatory system in the UK.

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[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

I hope the Committee will forgive me. I was slow on the uptake and should have preceded my noble friend instead of following him. I think doing so is legitimate within the rules of Committee.

I very much support my noble friend Lord Ashcombe’s amendment. The Minister has already made the point that I have the greatest possible reservations about net zero. This is not because I have some tremendous hang-up and that I want to pollute the atmosphere and make the place less liveable than it might otherwise be, but because we are now reaching the point on net zero where the costs are starting to come in and getting very severe indeed. That is why we have to think very closely and carefully about where we go from here.

We have done an awful lot to lower our net emissions into the atmosphere, largely by closing down vast areas of our generation industry, in which coal-fired power stations have now been phased out almost completely. What has happened? We think we are setting a wonderful example to the rest of the world but our net emissions come down and world emissions go up. That is hardly surprising, because the Chinese and the Indians are still building coal-fired power stations. They account for massive amounts of coal-fired energy, which keeps their energy prices low and makes them very competitive with the rest of the world. Are we really going to see a change of heart from China and India? Will they suddenly say, “No, no, we’ve been polluting the atmosphere too much and we must now start cleaning everything up and working to net zero”? I do not think they will. They want to keep their competitive position.

That is why it is so essential, to refer back to my noble friend’s amendment, that we continue to accept that we will need oil and gas for much longer than we might originally have thought. The cost of saying we will not explore for any more oil and gas in the North Sea is absolutely massive in terms of jobs for people living in Scotland. The pigeons are starting to come home on all this. That is one of the reasons why I have the greatest possible reservations about driving on towards this net-zero target: the costs are becoming prohibitive. Our energy prices are already higher than almost everybody in Europe. This will cost us jobs and competitiveness in the world generally for years to come.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, one of the joys of debating energy is that, on every occasion, we come back to the substance of the whole argument about energy and where we are going. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ashcombe, for stimulating such an interesting discussion. The noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, in a sense, has brought this into the open. Clearly, it was his Government who signed up to the legislation on net zero by 2050. The last Government, as much as we do, saw the huge risks involved in climate change and the need to take action.

The international position is that, despite what the noble Lord says, the fastest growth in use of renewable energy is occurring in China. The International Energy Agency indicated in its recent renewable energy report that we will see a 2.7 times increase in the use of renewables globally between now and 2030. So, there is a global movement towards clean power and net zero. Yes, it is going at different paces, but we believe the UK can gain great advantage by taking a leadership role. The National Energy System Operator—NESO—has shown that there is a pathway to clean power by 2030. We are now committed to taking that and turning it into an action plan, which I hope we will be able to publish very shortly.

I would not deny that North Sea oil and gas still have important roles to play, and I am of course listening to what noble Lords say about the tax situation and proposals, and the investment issue. Clearly, the Government are in very close discussions with the industry. Our aim is an orderly transition, and that is what we mean to achieve. So we clearly see the value of what happens in the North Sea, and we need it to continue to provide supplies to the UK in the years ahead. Equally, however, we need to manage the transition to clean power and net zero.

On the issue of jobs, obviously, the number of people employed by GBE will not balance out the people who may be lost to the oil and gas industry in the future. This is important. It does not really matter where the chair comes from; the point is that the headquarters of GBE will be firmly based in Aberdeen. I have already referred to the extra 40,000 people we need in nuclear by 2030. If you look at the other sectors we are talking about investing in—CCUS, hydrogen—all of them will need more people. So, the energy sector as a whole will provide a huge number of opportunities, but I accept that, if there is a reduction in the number of people employed in the North Sea, it is our responsibility, with industry, to help manage that transition effectively.

In the end, we may disagree about this, but the Government are confident that we are right to go towards clean power as quickly as possible. We have had endorsement, both from the Committee on Climate Change and the Office for Budget Responsibility, that investing in clean energy now will pay dividends in the long term.

COP 29

Debate between Lord Hamilton of Epsom and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Thursday 28th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I have to say to the noble Baroness that at the moment we do not have any plans to review it.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, China is a major contributor to global emissions. Much of its energy is still generated through coal and it is still building coal-fired power stations. China is not alone. India is also building coal-fired power stations and depends on coal for much of its energy as well. The result is that both countries are keeping their prices low, compared with the rest of the world, and the undertakings that we have from them seem rather hazy. What guarantees are there that they will reduce their consumption of coal and are they likely to keep to them?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

Obviously, there are no guarantees, but that is why it is very important to move to Brazil and deal with mitigation, in a way that we were unable to do in the last COP negotiations. In relation to China, I understand entirely what the noble Lord is saying. I understand entirely his concerns. However, China was a player at the COP discussions. It did indicate the voluntary payments that it has made to developing countries and I believe we have to work very hard to keep China in the tent.

I repeat again that, although clearly China has overtaken the EU and is now the world’s largest emitter, it is also developing extensively in renewable energy. What alternative do we have? In the end, we must come back to climate change and the awful consequences, for us and globally, of not taking action. It would be a huge mistake to put the brakes on, say, “No, we’re going to rely on oil and gas”, and hope that nothing happens. We just cannot do that. We have to work with China and India. We have to try as hard as we can to bring them with us and that is what we are seeking to do.