Gaming Machines and Social Responsibility

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Thursday 17th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to be able to begin a response to that Statement, which we thank the Minister for repeating, with a welcome from these Benches. In the Welsh language, we have a little tag, “Chwarae teg”—which means, “Fair play, you have done a good job by there”.

We of course welcome the announcement, which is the culmination of cross-party campaigning. Others were mentioned in the Statement, but we add Carolyn Harris, chair of the cross-party APPG and the Minister, Tracey Crouch, who led the review. They should be commended personally in this way. It is of course a victory for all those people whose lives have been blighted by these toxic machines, and these measures should be enacted as soon as possible. A period of delay for consultation is of course understandable, but we hope that it will not be longer than it needs to be.

Last year, there were more than 230,000 individual sessions in which a user lost more than £1,000. That was referred to in the Statement. These machines have increased the risk of problem gambling. It was referred to in one interview on the radio as the “crack cocaine” or “category A” of addictive gambling activity. It is indeed very addictive and very damaging. The evidence shows that this measure will reduce harm for those experiencing it and eliminate the most addictive roulette content, which will significantly reduce the problem gambling associated with these machines.

Having said that by way of commendation, we have of course to mention our caveats and express our aspirations for ongoing work in this area. We are disappointed, for example, that the Government have not yet introduced a mandatory research and treatment levy. Currently, gambling companies make voluntary contributions to the charity GambleAware to help pay for education, research and treatment of gambling addiction, but we would consider replacing this with a compulsory system. The Statement mentions the continuing education, research and treatment that the Government intend to activate, and the levy would help to pay for all that.

The Government need to set a few challenges for the industry, too: we should not encourage complacency. I ask the Minister to reassure us, for example, that the use of contactless cards to admit people to certain gambling games will be looked at with a critical eye. Mention was made in the Statement of online gambling. We continue to be very worried about its effect on those who use it. It has increased at an exponential pace, and we hope that that, too, will be looked at critically.

Then there is the question of children gambling. A large number have shown themselves to be open to using outlets for gambling, and 57,000 children turn out to be problem gamblers: 57,000 children categorised in that way is surely cause for concern.

On the business news yesterday, I heard that the decision of the Supreme Court in the United States of America to deregulate gambling in the area of sport has brought a spark to the eye of our gambling companies, which now see opportunities to expand their business in those directions. So, while losing a bit of money here, they will not be without innovative possibilities to increase their income elsewhere.

We congratulate the Government once again but look forward to hearing satisfying responses to our continuing concerns about this activity.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, in the other place in 2010 I proposed that the stake for a fixed-odds betting terminal be reduced to £2, and in 2015 my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones introduced a Private Member’s Bill in your Lordships’ House proposing the same. We knew then that FOBTs were blighting the lives of thousands of gamblers and their families, and that the betting shops blighting our high streets were getting something like 70% of their profits from these terminals, which were a catalyst for anti-social behaviour and serious crime. So we on these Benches very much welcome the Statement that has been made today.

However, as the Minister acknowledged in the Statement, this has been a cross-party campaign to get changes, and I, too, pay tribute to Carolyn Harris and all members of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Fixed Odds Betting Terminals. Outwith politics, there have been many, including the churches—and I pay a particular tribute to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans for the work that he has done —and many within the gambling industry itself who have also been campaigning for this change to take place. Many tributes have been paid to the late Baroness Tessa Jowell, and I support all them all. I will make one further one, because it was the noble Baroness who, as Secretary of State in 2005, introduced the legislation that allowed the establishment of fixed-odds betting terminals. It is to her enormous credit that she showed bravery and courage when, two years ago, she publicly acknowledged that she and her Government at the time had got it wrong. She would be the first to say that the decision today is the right decision for the families and individuals who have been affected, and for society—but I am sure that she would have gone further and said that there is still more to be done in relation to online gambling and the advertising of gambling.

I have three quick questions to the Minister. The first is that the Statement makes it clear that this move will need parliamentary approval and that there is still to be further consultation with the gambling industry to ensure that it is given “sufficient time for implementation”. I think that all of us are anxious for this change to take place as rapidly as possible. Can the Minister give us an indication of the timeframe that he envisages before we see a £2 maximum limit?

Many concerns have been expressed about the number of betting shops on our high streets. Although changes were made in 2015, will the Minister acknowledge that the planned changes to the National Planning Policy Framework would give an opportunity to enhance the powers that local authorities have to be able to take action if problems emerge in future following this change?

Finally, I welcome very much that Public Health England is to conduct an evidence review into the health aspects of gambling-related harm. We are all keen to ensure that enough money is made available by the industry to pay for research into, education around and treatment of gambling problems. Will the Minister tell your Lordships’ House whether the time has not come to change the current voluntary levy to a compulsory one? As I have said in your Lordships’ House before, it is very strange that the compulsory levy for horseracing raises 10 times more to support horses than the voluntary levy currently raises to support people. The time has come to change that.

Historic Cathedrals

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Monday 14th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, as I said, we accept that the cost of repairing and maintaining these significant and marvellous old buildings is enormous, so I am glad that 57 of our wonderful cathedrals were able to benefit from the First World War fund. At the moment there are no new plans for new funding aimed specifically at cathedrals—but, of course, the listed places of worship scheme continues, as does the HLF scheme under which cathedrals and other places of worship can apply for maintenance.

Further to that, we are currently exploring new models of financing the repair and maintenance of church buildings through a pilot scheme under the Taylor review. Although the review did not talk specifically about cathedrals, the lessons from it can apply. I know, for example, that my noble friend has already been to see the Chief Secretary to the Treasury to put the case for more funding.

As for Lincoln, a couple of weeks ago I spent some time looking at what was going on at Hereford. In due course, diary permitting, I will be very pleased to go to Lincoln as well—as long as I can go on the roof and have a look.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I speak as one who for 21 years had responsibility for the place fondly known around the world as the “Cathedral of Methodism”. For 17 of those years I was also an ecumenical canon and a member of the Cathedral Council at St Paul’s, collaborating closely with Westminster Abbey. Earlier in this Session, we heard Questions about the importance of the tourist industry for our economy generally. Certainly the number of visitors who flock through our cathedrals is a significant part of that activity—but, as the Minister hinted, much of that is concentrated in London. Would the plea of a Methodist to endow the cathedrals of this country for the established Church add weight to any decisions that the Minister might be led to make?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I feel that I am really on the noble Lord’s ground here and that I am visiting, as it were. However, I assure him that we are looking not just at the established Church but at other places of worship, particularly those that are listed. There are many examples of places where money, particularly from the First World War cathedrals fund, has gone—it has been spread all around the country.

Brexit: Digital Single Market

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Tuesday 8th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I completely agree with the noble Lord that the creative industries and digital are a very important part of our economy. We are the leaders in Europe—7.9% of our GDP is digital, with the next biggest, I think, being France, at 3.9%. We acknowledge that this has to be part of the wider negotiations on the single market. We are undertaking a great deal of analysis to make sure that we understand the implications of those negotiations.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, analysis, study, the eventual bringing to our attention of possible ways forward—is the Minister able to help us in a shorter term than that, given that nearly two years have passed since all this began? I know that he will use the word “shortly” or “soon”, but can he give us an idea of when we will have a fix on this? The greatest part of our trade is led by our activities in this sphere. All the talk is about trade, yet this issue has the potential to damage a significant part of our trading arrangements. Has not enough advice been given by the House of Commons DCMS Committee in its recent report? Urgency is what we seem to be lacking.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I have to disagree with the noble Lord: urgency is not lacking, and considerable work is going on. Clearly, when we are about to undertake some of the most important negotiations that we have had for decades, we would not want to outline exactly what our negotiating position was before we did it. We absolutely take on board what the noble Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, have said and understand the importance of the digital area. That will take place within the broader single market negotiations.

Gambling Advertising

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Thursday 3rd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The important thing is what is effective. I know that many people have strong opinions on gambling, as they do on smoking and alcohol. The fact is that the evidence does not support some of the claims made. The Binde report said that the impact of advertising on problem gambling rates is likely to be,

“neither negligible nor considerable, but rather relatively small”.

On the noble Lord’s point regarding a compulsory levy, we have said many times that if the gambling industry does not provide the requisite amount to support measures to deal with problem gambling, we will consider a mandatory levy.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

It appears to many of us incredible that there should be reported to be relatively undisquieting developments in the field of gambling—certainly, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has hinted at that. Are the Government aware of and disturbed by moves towards what is called the normalisation of gambling or, as the Committee of Advertising Practice put it, the “trivialisation” of gambling? Is not the movement of gambling towards being like the air we breathe a worrying thing that might lie beyond the ability of statisticians to quantify? Will the Government look urgently and proactively for such evidence rather than waiting for the results of a consultation?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Yes, absolutely. We are looking proactively. We issued a call for evidence; the consultation hinted at areas where there was a lack of evidence. I believe that GambleAware will produce more evidence later this year. We of course accept that there are issues to do with protecting vulnerable people and children. That is why these matters have been addressed in the consultation, and our response will follow in due course.

Undersea Cables

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Thursday 8th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The noble Lord raises an important point. As far at the Sunday Times report is concerned, I can say that the reporter was unable to access any secure section of the facility. The essential point about this is that there is resilience in the system. There are 11 landing sites, for example, for transatlantic cables, in different places. Because of the resilience of the system, when one particular cable is broken the system continues. As far as prosecution is concerned, most of the breaks in the cables—and there are a considerable number each year; about 30 to 40 each year—are as the result of accidents. That is why it is not normally necessary to prosecute. However, these are civil actions because the cables belong to individual companies. It is up to them to seek damages.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, the DCMS is a wondrous part of our governing system; within it, so many amazing things come together for consideration. I had not realised until looking at this Question that 97% of global communications come via cables, when I had fondly imagined that satellites took up a lot more than that. But my question is to ask why a Question that relates to security is being handled by the DCMS at all. I have come to enjoy the company of the Minister and to admire his competence across such a wide range of fields of interest, but perhaps he can reassure the House that the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport will indeed be in the closest possible relationship to the Department of Defense to reassure us on the questions of security as maintained in this Question.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am speechless. The reason why DCMS is answering this Question is that we are responsible for co-ordinating the resilience of the telecoms sector in the UK. Telecoms is one of the UK’s 13 critical sectors and we are in close touch with other departments, particularly the Home Office, which is responsible for GCHQ, and the Ministry of Defence. I am not the only Minister who has answered on this; in December my noble friend Lord Howe answered a similar Question.

Volunteering

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Wednesday 21st February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I seem to have measured out my life in volunteering, and it is with great pleasure that I come to this debate. I thank my noble friend, who is both noble and, as it happens, my friend, for tabling it and giving us this opportunity to speak on the subject.

As I look back over a colourful life, I see the faces of the groups of people who, in such a wide spread of the activities in the voluntary sector, have brought a smile to people’s faces and hope to the lives that they live, and a sense of purpose to those helping in this way—school governors; food banks; prison visiting; chauffeurs to hospital appointments; pastoral care; good neighbourliness; homeless, especially the street homeless; hospitals and daycare centres; addiction of various kinds; HIV/AIDS; running a museum; and organising for people who would be lonely on Christmas Day an opportunity to be with others and have some fun.

I could go on: there is the Haiti Support Group and, the one of which I am proud, the Boys’ Brigade—of which I am the president, as is recorded in the register—which gives tens of thousands across all the countries of these islands meaningful endeavour and adventure and a great sense of fun and purpose.

I want also to say how proud I am that I am the father-in-law of a young woman who spent three years in Pakistan with VSO; the father of a daughter who spent three years in China and then 10 in Cambodia doing voluntary work much of the time; and the father of a son who has served much time, and indeed is still serving, as a school governor. In all those ways, I can personally testify again and again to the benefits of these activities.

I have two points to make—very quickly, because I see that my time has gone. First, I have noticed that when schemes are begun by volunteers and eventually taken over by professionals, tension emerges. Secondly, when school governors are to become directors of academies, different skills and attitudes prevail. Those are questions that need answering, and I offer them for what they are worth.

Charities, Social Enterprises and Voluntary Organisations

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Tuesday 20th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. I do not think there is any suggestion of further regulation of civil society, as such, but we expect all organisations which deal with the public to obey the law. That includes charities but also all civil society. It is one thing that can be considered in the new consultation on the civil society strategy that we are going to launch soon.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing to our attention the connection between the activities of the Charity Commission and bodies like it and recent incidents of which we are all too well aware. I have long and profound experience of Haiti and could make my question centre on that, but that is not where the Question laid before us is. Granted, in times of heightened anxiety, such as this, we are all tempted to put regulatory strangleholds on those at the top, whether an NGO, the Charity Commission or even the Government. However, is not the best way of ensuring improvement—so that these things do not happen again—to have adequate procedures as near to the place where these incidents happen as possible, and proper ways of monitoring those activities? Is that not better than finding other rules and regulations simply at the top?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, there is lot of sense in what the noble Lord said. One of the things we want to do is to strike a balance. We should remember that all these organisations do good work; that is what they are in business for. We have to be careful about things such as safeguarding. I take the noble Lord’s point about making it near the action, as it were. One thing we are doing is convening two summits, one to focus on international aid charities, which will be jointly chaired by the Secretary of State for International Development, and another, chaired by the Minister for Sport and Civil Society, to concentrate on domestic charities, to look at what we can do to strengthen the safeguarding capability and capacity of charities working across that area. The fact remains that charities and organisations like them do good work on the ground.

Gambling Act 2005 (Amendment of Schedule 6) Order 2018

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Thursday 1st February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

I will ask a question that is probably very naive. I was surprised that neither football nor any kind of horseracing or any of those activities was included in the list. Is there a reason for that, or have I completely missed the point? I declare an interest as chair of the National Mental Capacity Forum. When people become hypomanic, lose capacity and go into a phase of placing large numbers of bets in a completely uncontrolled way, it is often football and horseracing where they will be placing those bets and running up debts.

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I have given due attention to the proposals before us and can see exactly the logic that brings them to our attention. My eyebrows have been raised by certain of the details; I wish I knew how people might gamble in an inappropriate way in terms of playing darts, for example. A treble 20 is a difficult thing to be sure about under any circumstances. For all that, I can see that, if assurances have been given by the various bodies that they will come into line with the expectations under the terms of the Act, they should be added to the list.

My pulse quickened when I saw the European Rugby Cup Ltd mentioned, since the Llanelli Scarlets are leading the way for British involvement in the European cup quarter-finals. I am happy as a Welshman to just lord that over any English friends I have here in the House with me.

I have one question that perhaps the Minister can help me with. How do we get the necessary information that relates to companies registered in the Republic of Ireland? That stands out as being a little different from the others.

I am happy to note that the anti-doping people, UKAD, are now involved. Having met their representatives on more than one occasion, I can see how there is an overlap of interest, but also that it adds competence to the governing of these different sports and this activity.

All that having been said, I think that due process has been followed. When I was growing up, it was inconceivable that anybody would bet on any of these activities at all. Indeed, betting on horseracing was done illicitly in my youth. Round the corner we had Dai Double-Ticket, as we called him, and he ran the bets to the local bookkeeper on our behalf. We hoped that he would share the profits with us eventually. We have now come to the point where we can bet during matches and all the rest of it. It is so complicated now compared to what it was, and adequate machinery has to be put in place. The Gambling Act 2005 sought to do that and, a few years having passed, we must of course seek to update the information base upon which we operate the provisions of that Act. Apart from those little questions I have, I am happy to concur with the recommendation.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, just to follow on briefly, I am very pleased to see that, as in the Commons, there is a strong Welsh perspective being displayed on these matters today.

We all have a strong interest in sports betting integrity, and we had quite a debate on the issue during our discussion of the Data Protection Bill. I am pleased, therefore, to see the inclusion of UKAD in Part 3 of Schedule 6. In the Commons discussion of this order, there were some interesting debates about the inclusion of international bodies. Perhaps the Minister could slightly unpack the reason for those international bodies being included.

The last thing I want to say is that there is a distinction between Parts 2 and 3 of Schedule 6, and I wonder whether the Minister could explain why UKAD is included in Part 3 but not in Part 2. I know that the Explanatory Memorandum goes into that to some extent, but not entirely. UKAD is an enforcement body, and it seems slightly strange that it is not going to be on the face of the statutory instrument.

Museums and Galleries

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, in hyperactive mode, I will continue along the line of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones. Everybody has mentioned money in this debate. The other thing that has come up constantly is all the exotic places where people can give personal accounts of museums that they are familiar with. We could have had a tour of scenic Britain with our eyes shut: Lincoln, Wales, York, Inverness, Yorkshire, Gateshead, Cambridge, Hull and Manchester—but, of course, no culture west of Bristol. This has borne testimony to the fact that all of us have our rootage in the cultural heritage expressed in museums and galleries.

I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, not only on bringing this Question to our attention, but on his pertinacity in ensuring that the future of our heritage is constantly held under review. I have a little experience in this field. For more than 20 years I bore responsibility for the Museum of Methodism, situated at Wesley’s Chapel on the City Road here in London. Clearly this is a niche museum, although we developed it in conjunction with other religious museums, especially the museum of Judaism. The curator spares and finds time to chair the group that presents to the public the interests of the small historic houses of London. Yet, for all that it is a niche museum, it has global significance and attracts tourism by the tens of thousands for the 70 million Methodists scattered around the world. It is a place of pilgrimage, where John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, began his work. It is where he lived and died and where his last remains are buried. It is an important destination for faithful Methodists from everywhere and, since it is open at times when other museums are not, for non-Methodists too.

These responsibilities I shouldered made me more than aware of the key questions we are addressing in this debate and that are put forward in the Mendoza review. We needed to fund a major refurbishment costing millions of pounds. A small part of that came from the Heritage Lottery Fund, the rest from trusts, personal contacts, philanthropists and the international Methodist family. Equally, we sought to ensure sustainability and good leadership. We appointed a fully professional and experienced curator who was far better than we might have found in normal times, but these were not normal times. We were able to get this person simply because, due to local authority cutbacks, a brilliant man trained at the Victoria and Albert suddenly became available, made redundant from the gallery he was running. We added a training and development officer and these two professional people are aided by volunteers—as was said by the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles—who keep the place open every single day of the year, except perhaps three days around the major festivals. In addition, we have developed an ambitious outreach programme to schools and other institutions as we seek to broaden the base of those interested, bring more people in, change the exhibitions around and appeal to those interested in religious history, 18th-century history, architecture, social development, the world mission and metropolitan history.

Running a museum is more than just keeping the budget balanced. It is interesting to know that there are well over 2,000 such small museums scattered around the country. As has been said by many noble Lords, their contribution to community life, social cohesion and identity cannot be overestimated. Such museums, of course, are minuscule in comparison to the great national museums which come immediately to mind in a debate of this kind—minuscule, but no less important.

The noble Lord, Lord Monks, mentioned the People’s History Museum. I had quite a discourse on that and I will abandon it because repetition is not a good thing in parliamentary debate. However, I hope that as much attention will be given to the non-elitist aspects of British social history as to the great showpiece places in the great museums we can all think of. It was astonishing to read some of the accounts in the briefing papers about the Minister’s great-aunt; a suffragist, a pacifist and, supremely, a nonconformist. I was delighted to read that: he must meet my wife, whose great-aunt was a suffragette, a nonconformist and a Pankhurst. I am indeed married to a revolutionary woman; it is in the genes. Therefore, I hope that the People’s History Museum will receive the attention it is due and be visited by the all-party group of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. The Mendoza committee did not have a chance to visit it: it needs visiting and this is a good year for it with the centenary of the Representation of the People Act being celebrated appropriately, centred in Manchester.

I noticed in the Mendoza report—the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, mentioned it—that DCMS will facilitate the development of a museums action plan with the Arts Council, HLF and so on, to deliver on these priorities this September. It is my lot in these debates to be able to anticipate the Minister’s response by saying, “We will see how we will proceed with the questions we are debating when this report comes out”. It is not the first time I have been snookered in that way, but I hope we can put pressure on those facilitating this development action plan in order that they may catch the idea that money is needed. We can get some money by making economies and by greater efficiency: that is one way of getting more out of what we have got. The noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, missed his chance to speak, but I want to say what he has revealed to me in a courteous revelation of his speech, which is that other money can be gained by taking away the charge for images and illustrations that museums impose on anything that people want to include in publications, publicity and educational materials. That has the effect of narrowing down those who might attend our museums or be aware of our collections. I commend the noble Lord for that idea for enriching the resource base of our museums.

This is where we must draw things to a conclusion. Money is and will continue to be a problem. We can hope only that the study about to be done will look squarely at it. I hope that there is more money to be squeezed out of the orange. A clear responsibility rests with the DCMS in this regard; we must hope that it comes good. With all this in mind, it seems that we must keep these matters on hold yet again, and anticipate a further discussion once the forthcoming study has been completed. We count on the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, to ensure that it happens.

UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding

Lord Griffiths of Burry Port Excerpts

Thursday 18th January 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, there seems to be a theme coming through and I simply want to add my voice to the expression of it. Incidentally, with the previous speaker in mind, I say that one former Welsh rugby union referee is following another in this debate, and no doubt some quite heavy influence will be cast upon the outcome of the debate as a result. I have to say, however, that I can trump a few aces, because I in fact played with Barry John at the University of Wales—I want that on the record of course. I also played at Lampeter, where the first rugby game was ever played in Wales—it was brought there from Cambridge, shortly after it originated in Rugby. I played in the centenary game with a whole host of Welsh international stars playing against us. I went down for the 150th anniversary just last year, where I kicked off the ball—that was the limit.

It is interesting, as my life has unfolded, that the great sports that I have played—cricket, badminton, rugby and anything else that was going—have gradually become more sedentary, ending with snooker. I have even given that up, not so much because my sons began to beat me at it but because they began to pretend that I had beaten them—that is a much more serious position, I can assure noble Lords.

As far as I see and hear it, the real key to this discussion is that we have to decide at the beginning of our thinking—our conceptualisation—whether to look for a solution to the admitted need to encourage activity in this sector at the top, through pump-priming in order to set examples that others will follow and to inspire through great success, or at the bottom. The noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, talked very eloquently about that second approach; I have heard him speak on basketball twice now.

All my sporting activity was in the pre-professional days, before pay, and there was an entirely different approach to it. Burry Port, where I come from, has had no medals in anything, but the playing fields of Burry Port, like those of Eton, were full of people striving to beat local opponents. There were revenge matches with Tumble over the hill and Pembrey down the road. My brother was in at 16 playing for Pembrey youth and I played for the University of Wales later on. It was all without any money being exchanged at all. Really, it is about the balance between putting money into activities that generate success that then inspires others and looking to develop communities with these local rivalries, competitions and the spirit of fellowship—is there anything better than taking to any field of endeavour with the idea of really knocking your opponents for six, only to enjoy a pint in the pub with them afterwards as you recount tales of derring-do in days gone by? There is nothing more sensible than that as a pattern for the way you live. Here, of course, I would draw a distinction between the crowds at football and rugby. The crowds intermingle at rugby, and you make jokes at each other’s expense and that of the opponents around you, whereas in football the police help to separate them off from each other.

I wonder about the way such resources as we have get channelled out. Why do we favour sports that are very low in terms of participatory potential, such as equestrian sport, when sports such as basketball—which, in terms of social cohesion, bring people together across all the divides that afflict us socially—are left out of the equation? I wish we could recalibrate the way we look at how we distribute such resources as are available. Whether it is everything as it was last year, less or whatever, how do we prioritise? The whole business of medals leaves me cold. I love having medals and cheering competitors on, but I cannot see that that must be the sole criterion when we look at a formula for distributing the cash that is available.

Tomorrow morning, I will receive a protégé of mine who got a job a couple of years ago with the Rugby Football Union. His job is to animate communities throughout north London and to interest schools that do not have a tradition of rugby, and communities that have no playing fields, in the possibilities of playing it, especially helping women to play. The Rugby Football Union no doubt gets some government money; I do not know and do not really care—it is the activity I want to exalt. It is about taking it out of a sporting base—where the newspapers are full of the rivalries, the need to win the Six Nations Championship and all the rest of it—and into the grass roots, where people play on muddy November days. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, and I have refereed matches in Wales where you could not see the 25—when it was called the 25. The rule about kicking into touch left us totally lost: when we took our spectacles off you could not see whether the ball had bounced into touch or not.

For all of that, it seems to me that public money should be put into sporting activity for reasons that go well beyond sport, which have been mentioned in this debate: for health, community cohesion and well-being. All these things, and not just medals, must be a product or an outcome. In all those ways, I support those noble Lords who have made this point very eloquently and from very different positions in these fields of endeavour.

I finish by remembering the film “Invictus”, which showed South African rugby and Nelson Mandela and all of that. The great moment for me was when the rugby players in the South African team—all white—were taken in their bus by the captain of the team to a township. They did not know what to do or why they had been brought there, but they showed kids who kicked a bit of rag around as a football the glories of passing the ball and playing rugby. Now the South African team has black people in it, and I am sure it arose from those sorts of beginnings. Participation, revitalising communities and spreading money out with that must be the sole and overriding objective. I look forward to what the Minister is going to say about who he played rugby with in his day.