Localism Bill
Lord Greaves Excerpts(13 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Shipley
I shall also speak to Amendment 133ZB and I shall be very brief, because a number of the issues that I would have raised were raised earlier in amendments on this section. It is interesting that in this chapter, which has four pages, the Secretary of State is mentioned 19 times. It seems very odd that in a Bill about localism, the Secretary of State has to have 19 separate possible roles. My amendment is simply about how the timing and consideration of expressions of interest could be progressed. Put simply, relevant authorities would have to specify when these would be.
It seems to me that local government can be trusted to do more things for itself. Given that councils will have a power of general competence under this Bill, we might consider allowing them to prove that they are generally competent to do things for themselves and do not need the constant intervention of the Secretary of State in a whole range of ways which do not support the principle of localism. There is a key principle here: this is an example of where the powers of the Secretary of State could simply be written out of the Bill and local authorities could be given a responsibility for defining when expressions of interest could come in and when the authority would then consider them. As a consequence, the role of the Secretary of State and a considerable number of the 19 separate roles of the Secretary of State in this four-page chapter could be reduced.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I have two amendments in this group, Amendments 133ZC and 133ZE. They are all about the maximum and minimum periods by which local authorities have to deal with expressions of interest and the rules and regulations that the Secretary of State will be able to make in relation to those. I can only underline what my noble friend Lord Shipley has just said.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I also have an amendment in this group. First, I endorse what the noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord Greaves, have said in speaking to their amendments. My Amendment 133ZEA is effectively to replace the Secretary of State’s regulatory function—again we come across the Secretary of State’s regulations—with the relevant authority being allowed to determine and publicise the relevant periods between accepting an expression of interest and beginning the procurement exercise. That really ought to be a matter for local circumstances and local decision and not something prescribed nationally.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, Amendment 133ZC would remove the Secretary of State’s power to specify minimum periods for the submission of expressions of interest. Amendment 133ZEA would require relevant authorities to set and publicise minimum and maximum periods between an expression of interest being accepted and a procurement exercise starting. Amendment 133ZE would remove the Secretary of State’s power to specify these periods, which would have a similar effect. We have taken these powers to ensure that power really is pushed down into the hands of communities.
The power to specify minimum periods for submission of expressions of interest will ensure that relevant bodies have sufficient time to prepare and submit them. The power to specify a minimum period between an expression of interest being accepted and a procurement exercise starting will, in particular, ensure that employees, where they are not the challengers, have sufficient time to decide whether they wish to organise themselves to bid, and do so effectively. This will support the Government’s commitment to give public sector workers the right to bid to take over running the services they deliver. It should also help smaller and newer voluntary and community bodies. The power to specify a maximum period will prevent a procurement exercise from being unnecessarily delayed.
The majority of relevant authorities will, of course, act within the spirit of the right, but these powers will prevent a recalcitrant authority from specifying periods that are so short that they stymie relevant bodies wishing to use the right. However, following our recent consultation, we are carefully considering whether some discretion could be given to relevant authorities on the timescales associated with the process to enable them to take account of local circumstances.
Clause 69(2) gives discretion to relevant authorities to specify periods during which expressions of interest could be submitted in particular services. Amendments 133ZA and 133ZB would instead require relevant authorities to specify periods during which expressions of interest in a particular service would be considered, changing the emphasis of this provision. Relevant bodies would then be able to submit expressions of interest at any time. However, this amendment could result in expressions of interest being submitted so far in advance that they would be out of date by the time the relevant authority considered them. The time within which a relevant authority must notify a relevant body of its decision on an expression of interest, provided for in Clause 71(4), is intended to provide time for consideration of expressions of interest. I trust that, in the circumstances, noble Lords will feel able to withdraw their amendments.
Lord Greaves
From my point of view, if this provides a bit more flexibility to deal with local holidays and things like that, it is welcome, but the whole thing is still complete nonsense. The idea that local authorities need to be told exactly what the minimum or maximum periods are, or need new rules to say, “This is exactly the flexibility you can have to increase it, or reduce it, or whatever”, is treating local authorities, as I said before, first of all like wholly owned subsidiaries of national government, and secondly like a kindergarten which needs to have its whole life organised for it by people from above. It is absolutely crazy and is typical of the entire ethos which lies behind the Bill. All the good stuff in the Bill is being ruined by this complete nonsense that local authorities have to be told what to do and how to do it in detail. I was thinking about this over dinner. I said before that it is to do with local authority cultures. Local authorities will never learn to be grown-up people who can make their own decisions and organise their own lives if this culture continues.
My honourable friend Andrew Stunell, one of the Ministers responsible for the Bill, complains almost every time I see him that he goes to local authorities and they keep asking him how they are going to deal with the new general power of competence. He says, “It is a new general power of competence and you yourselves will decide how you’re going to deal with it”. That is wonderful, but all through the Bill we have all these detailed regulations that go against that.
Local authorities nowadays will not do anything unless they have such regulations. So long as these regulations continue, local authorities will lack imagination and enterprise. They will be the opposite of what we want them to be. The civil servants and the Government have to let go. Until they do so, there is no hope.
Lord Greaves
“(a) decide whether or not to carry out a procurement exercise relating to the provision on behalf of the authority of the relevant service to which the expression of interest relates, and(b) either—(i) carry out such an exercise, or(ii) negotiate with the relevant body on the terms on which the body may carry out the provision of the relevant service.”
Lord Greaves
I have this somewhere. Sorry, my Lords, I got a bit carried away with the previous amendment and stopped sorting my papers out. I shall speak also to my five other amendments in this group. There is also a Labour amendment in the group.
Amendment 133ZD follows a pattern of debate and amendments on this chapter in that it tries to give local authorities more freedom to make their own choices and attempts to minimise constraint by the Secretary of State. It would give local authorities the choice whether or not to respond to an expression of interest with a procurement exercise. We discussed this in some detail in our debates on amendments before the dinner hour, so I will not go into that in any more detail now. This is an area that I think we will want to come back to in later discussions.
The reason for Amendment 133ZF, which refers to Clause 70(6) and (7), is to try to find out what they mean. Subsection (6) reads:
“A relevant authority must, in carrying out the exercise referred to in subsection (2), consider how it might promote or improve the social, economic or environmental well-being of the authority’s area by means of that exercise”.
This is a welcome provision, because it suggests that, as part of dealing with the expression of interest that comes in, the social, economic and environmental well-being of the authority’s area has to be looked at. I assume that when it says “the authority’s area”, it also means the specific part of the authority’s area that the expression of interest refers to. It would be interesting to have a comment on that. Subsection (7) then says:
“Subsection (6) applies only so far as is consistent with the law applying to the awarding of contracts for the provision on behalf of the authority of the relevant service in question”.
This is simply an amendment to probe what that means in practice. I understand what it means on paper, but in reality what balance will be given when an authority is considering how to deal with a particular expression of interest, and particularly with the procurement exercise? If what really applies is the lawyers coming along and saying, “This is how this authority awards contracts, and this is how it has to be done”, the reference to social, economic and environmental well-being may not actually mean very much. Or does it mean that the authority’s rules on the awarding of contracts—its financial regulations and so on—can be changed in order to give more weight to the kind of things that we talked about earlier, such as community involvement and the enhancement of particular areas, even if that is not the cheapest way?
Amendment 133ZG would insert a new provision, which reads:
“Any contract or other agreement that the relevant authority enters into under the provisions of this section shall be time-limited”.
This might happen automatically, but it would be interesting to hear the Minister say what the Government’s view is. Does this hand over a local service for ever, or is it the normal sort of contract that a local authority would have with an outside contractor to provide a service, which would be time-limited to five or 10 years, or whatever it might be?
Amendment 133ZH would add four more provisions. The first is:
“Any contract or other agreement that the relevant authority enters into under the provisions of this section may be subject to such arrangements for supervision, monitoring and assessment as the relevant authority thinks are necessary”.
Is it a question of handing a service over to someone in the community, or an organisation comes in and takes advantage of the procurement exercise, who is then responsible for it lock, stock and barrel, or does the council still have a residual responsibility? Will it be treated like a normal council contract—for example, a contract for refuse collections and recycling—or is it something different? Will there be a lighter touch in supervision? Will there be any supervision whatever? If it is something that the council has a duty to do by law, and there is no supervision, how does that tie in with the council’s duty?
The second provision the amendment would add is that,
“Any contract or other agreement that the relevant authority enters into under the provisions of this section may be subject to stipulations about the minimum level of services that must be provided and standards relating to their provision”.
This is the same kind of argument. It is the kind of thing that would happen automatically with a normal council contract. Does it apply in this case? If it does not, what guarantees are there that a proper service will be provided in future?
The third proposed subsection states:
“Each such contract may contain provisions relating to the action that may be taken by the relevant authority if a stipulated level or standard of service is not provided”—
in other words, if people are not providing the service that they said they would provide when they made the expression of interest and when the procurement exercise took place. If they do not provide the service, what happens? Is the council responsible for stepping in and doing something about it, or does it just hold its hands in the air and say, “That’s tough, that’s the way it is”?
The amendment further states:
“Such provisions may include a procedure by which the relevant authority may take over the provision of the relevant service itself”.
In other words, if the provider is not performing adequately, can the council move in in default, as it can with a normal contract, and take over the service, or is it lost for ever once it is out in the community, even if it is no good?
Amendment 133ZJ would apply the provisions of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006, usually known as TUPE. Clearly, if it is a question of looking after a pocket park at the end of a street, that can simply be transferred to a community group such as the parish council. However, if these provisions were used to transfer a refuse collection service, TUPE provisions would normally apply. Do they apply in the case of transfers under this legislation?
The final amendment in the group, Amendment 133ZM, is headed “Application of duties”. It seeks to investigate whether the Equality Act 2010 will apply in respect of the provision of a relevant service under the Bill. Will it be deemed to apply to the relevant body when that body is providing the service? If all you are doing is looking after a pocket park at a very local level, common sense suggests that the Act will not apply, but if you are transferring a service that involves employing people and providing a significant service such as social services to people, does the equality legislation still apply to those services, some of which might well be duties on the local authority that are being carried out by someone else? I beg to move.
Lord Patel of Bradford
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has raised important issues, and I look forward to the Minister’s response to them. I speak particularly to Amendment 133ZEC, which seeks to include a provision relating to expressions of interest. Clause 70(5) already calls on relevant authorities to consider the likely impact of any expression of interest on promoting or improving the,
“social, economic or environmental well-being of the authority’s area”.
I greatly welcome this and believe that it is an essential component of the consideration. However, I wish to strengthen it by including a consideration of equality. As noble Lords know, I have a long-standing interest in equality and feel passionately that this is a vital issue for all public services. I greatly welcomed the previous Government’s introduction of the Equality Act and have watched with some concern the current Government’s apparent retreat from many of the excellent provisions in that Act.
It seems appropriate that we should do all we can to ensure that equality is a prime consideration under the community empowerment chapters of the Localism Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, shares this concern. His Amendment 133ZM seeks to ensure that the provisions of the Equality Act 2010 that apply to relevant authorities will also apply to relevant bodies. I wish to go somewhat further than this as I believe we need to ensure that the existing equality requirements are strengthened. I wish to outline three reasons why this is important.
First, there is a risk that the community right to challenge could result in the exclusion of vital voluntary and community groups that currently empower people and ensure that local decision-making promotes equality. Groups working with specific communities, such as lesbian, gay, bi-sexual and transgender communities, black and minority ethnic communities, people with disabilities, and faith groups, should all be given robust support to take up the community challenge. Without specific protections to ensure this, such as a duty to consider equality, many of these groups would be passed over.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, I thank the two noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. I have several notes here for responding to these things, and if I do not pick everything, I hope I can write to them afterwards.
We have to remember as a preliminary to all this that this is the Localism Bill and there are some new things here, but that that does not get rid of old things. Therefore, if something is in the law at the moment, no other apple carts are upset. That is the fact of the Bill. However, Amendments 133ZD, 133ZJ, 133ZM and 133ZEC address areas in which existing legislation will apply and where services are contracted out following a successful challenge under the right. Amendment 133ZD would require a relevant authority accepting an expression of interest to decide whether it was going to carry out a procurement exercise, and either carry out that exercise or negotiate with a relevant body on the terms on which it may deliver the service.
Clause 70(3) already requires the procurement exercise carried out by the relevant authority following a successful challenge to be appropriate and have regard to the value and nature of the contract that may be awarded as a result. Therefore, where the service is of a nature or value to which the Public Contract Regulations 2006 apply, the relevant authority will need to follow the procedures set out in those regulations for advertising, tendering and awarding contracts. However, where those regulations do not apply—for example, where the value of the service is below the threshold of £156,000 for local authorities or the services are otherwise exempt—authorities have the discretion to decide how to procure the service, just as they already do when contracting out services.
Amendment 133ZJ would require any contract that a relevant authority entered into following a successful challenge to be subject to the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006—TUPE. The TUPE regulations already specify the instances in which they will apply. We are not seeking to change those through the community right to challenge.
Amendment 133ZEC would require a relevant authority to consider whether acceptance of an expression of interest would promote or improve equality of service provision in its area. Amendment 133ZM would apply the duties with which a relevant authority must comply under the Equality Act 2010 when delivering a service to a relevant body delivering a service on its behalf.
Relevant authorities will need to comply with their duties under the Equality Act when delivering services directly, when considering expressions of interest, when contracting out following a successful challenge under the right, and when procuring services outside the right. As is currently the case, when contracting out services authorities will need to satisfy themselves that they have fulfilled their duties, for example by including appropriate requirements in contracts.
Amendment 133ZF would remove the requirement for a relevant authority's consideration of how it might promote or improve the social, environmental or economic well-being of its area through the procurement exercise, to be consistent with procurement law. The amendment would remove clarity where it is needed. A relevant authority considering how it might promote or improve the social, economic or environmental well-being of its area must do so in a way that complies with procurement law. Failure to do so provides a number of grounds for legal challenge.
Amendment 133ZH would enable a relevant authority to specify in relation to contracts entered into following a successful challenge: arrangements for supervision, monitoring and assessment; service levels and standards; and the action that may be taken by the authority where those are not met, including a procedure by which the authority may take the service back in-house. Relevant authorities can and do include requirements in contracts for performance and monitoring. The right does not restrict them from continuing to do so.
Amendment 133ZG would require contracts let following a successful challenge to be time-limited. Authorities enjoy the freedom to enter into contracts for whatever period is relevant to the needs of their service users and to the need to obtain value for money. The amendment would unnecessarily restrict that freedom. In other words, there is no prescription on that. That is not a regulation; it is not in the Bill.
In the circumstances, I hope that the amendment may be withdrawn.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, there have been a number of useful and welcome statements, which have helped us to understand how this might work. I will read them carefully, as usual. There are one or two other issues, such as the TUPE business, for which the Minister said that nothing has changed, but it might still be helpful to know how it might apply to different circumstances under the Bill. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. In general, they were very helpful responses, and I will read them carefully.
Lord Greaves
Lord Greaves
My Lords, we now move on to Chapter 4 of Part 4 of the Bill, which relates to assets of community value and the compilation of lists of assets of community value by local authorities, the definition of community land, the procedures for including the land in the list, and so on. This is an important chapter. It is entirely new legislation, with new ideas and a new procedure. As with the right of community challenge, this House has, I believe, a duty to ensure that the legislation is workable.
I shall speak also to six other amendments in the group, which are in my name, and there are many other amendments in the names of other noble Lords. Amendment 133D, which leads the group, seeks to change the definition of what is to be in the list which the local authority maintains. Clause 74(1) states:
“A local authority must maintain a list of land in its area that is land of community value”.
We seek to change that to,
“a list of businesses in its area that are businesses of community value”.
This is a probing amendment to probe the meaning of “land”, “businesses” and “buildings”, which are all referred to in this part of the Bill. There is also something more fundamental behind it, which is the question of what, in a community, is of value to people. As far as this proposal is concerned, is it land, or is it what people do with the land; in other words, the businesses? There is a fundamental distinction and it is worth debating. There is also the matter of whether land, as such, should be maintained on the register or whether it should be dealt with in some other way. We will come to those amendments in due course.
Amendment 136ZAB—
Lord Beecham
Does the noble Lord have a view on the utility of Clause 74(2) which reads:
“The list maintained under subsection (1)”—
with which the noble Lord has just dealt—
“by a local authority is to be known as its list of assets of community value”.
Does he think that is useful or would he have in mind a further amendment about that?
Lord Greaves
I do not know. If the local authority is maintaining a list of land or businesses of community value, it will no doubt be known as the list of assets of community value. Whether the words are required in legislation is something I have long since stopped wondering about. I am sure that some of us could get round a table and reduce the size of this Bill considerably just by omitting stuff that appears to add nothing. I am not sure that that is our job. I would love to go through deleting stuff, but the Government would not accept it. When I do, they do not accept it. I have no real comment on that.
The Bill refers to a building or land specified in regulations, as a definition of the buildings and land which perhaps ought to be in the list of community assets. Again, it refers to a building or land, and appears to refer to a particular building or particular land, but it seems to me that it ought to refer to a class of building or land or a category of building or land.
Amendments 136ZB and 136ZC go together and are rather more specialist. Amendment 136ZB is quite long. It states:
“For the purposes of this section “land of community value” does not include … an allotment, common, open space, nature reserve or playing field in the ownership or management of a national or local authority or a charity whose purpose includes the management or conservation of that land for the public benefit … access land, or … land governed by an approved estate management scheme under section 19 of the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 or section 69 of the Leasehold Reform, Housing and Urban Development act 1993”.
Amendment 136ZC defines the terms. As defined in the amendment, access land is land defined as such under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000. It covers very large areas. For example, the whole of the Lake District is access land, either because it is urban common or because it has been described as access land. Very large areas of the uplands of this country are access land, and many places have commons that are access land. Clearly this is land of community value, which is why it has been defined as access land on which people can engage in what I believe is termed “recreation on foot”. However, it would be ludicrous if all that land were to be included in this legislation. These amendments exclude it.
The list of allotments, commons, open spaces and so on removes from the Part 4 procedure land already reasonably protected by statute, and land where the present owners should not be encouraged to believe that they can offload it on other people or perhaps on public authorities. It is also desirable to simplify the creation of the lists. Many areas, large and small, are defined in this way and might be included. However, if they were it would be likely to lead to a large number of disputes that would be difficult to resolve.
The definitions of allotment, common and open space are similar to those in Clauses 163(3) and 183(10) in the London sections, which repeat definitions from previous legislation over the years. It should be noted that the definition of “allotment” does not include the normally understood meaning of allotment, which is either a statutory allotment under the Allotments Act 1922 or a council or other allotment probably let on an annual garden tenancy. These allotments are the specialist fuel and field garden allotments under an Inclosure Act, which some of us will remember discussing during the passage of previous legislation.
The amendments do not seek to prevent the transfer or leasing of any of these excluded classes of land to appropriate charitable organisations—by agreement and after full consultation with the public and those affected—but it should not be under the pressure of this procedure. These classes of land have protection that is long established and rather specialist, and it should remain.
Amendment 133E questions the five-year time limit for land and buildings that are included—
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I have lots of things to say about everything in this group, but I am not going to because I might get lynched if I tried. It is a while since anybody was lynched in this building and I do not want to be the next.
First of all, I thank the Minster for the very detailed care with which she has taken the debate on these amendments, even at this time of night. It has been extremely helpful. A lot of useful stuff will be recorded in Hansard, and I think it will help us very much in what is clearly going to be quite a lot of further debate on the rest of the groupings on this part of the Bill.
I just want to comment on Amendment 136ZBA. I did not comment on it when I originally opened the group because I discovered that I had a slightly out-of-date list of groupings and it was not on it, which caused me confusion. The Minister referred to this amendment and said the Government were looking at it sympathetically. The proposed amendment would exclude land and buildings that have an ancillary use of community value but where it is not the main use. This is a fairly well known concept in planning. I am not sure that it is exactly transferable but, where there is a sporting use or another public use that is ancillary, minor or part-time, it clearly has to be excluded. I believe that that would go a long way to solve the problems that were eloquently explained by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan. I was very pleased indeed that the Minister said that the Government were looking at the concept raised in my Amendment 136ZBA.
Having said that, I now look forward to further debate on these matters on Thursday. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Localism Bill
Lord Greaves Excerpts(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Tope
My Lords, the noble Lord began by suggesting that we might not remember the provisions of the local democracy and everything else Bill. Some of us in this House remember it only too vividly. The noble Lord had the good fortune, if I might say so, not to have been a Member of the House then, but I remind your Lordships that we spent many, many hours on this part of that Bill.
The short answer to the noble Lord’s question as to why my noble friends and I rejoice at this clause is prescription. We spend many hours in this House, including on this Bill, complaining about central government prescribing in detail to local government what it should and should not do, what it can and cannot do, and even more particularly how it should do it. That is what Part 1 of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill did in enormous detail. I am sure my noble friend Lord Greaves will remind us exactly how many pages, words and possibly even letters it took to do this. That Bill started in your Lordships’ House and we spent a long time trying to improve that part of it, arguing that it was not the business of central government to prescribe exactly what local government should do and how they should do these things. Of course we should promote democracy. Of course we should encourage all these things. All good local authorities of whatever political control are already doing that. They have been doing it, in most cases very successfully, for many years and will carry on doing so whether there is an Act of Parliament requiring them to do so or not. So I, for one, rejoice at this clause, and this might be one of the few times I say that during this Committee.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I underline what my noble friend has just said. I am sorry that the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, is not here to take part in the discussion today because she was the Minister who had to take this nonsense through the House. She did it with great composure and good manners, although I am not sure what she secretly thought about it. The other Minister involved was the noble Lord, Lord Patel of Bradford, who is here. Perhaps he can tell us whether he is quite as appalled that this duty is going as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, suggested.
I regret to say that I, too, am extremely familiar with the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009, particularly this part of it, and it is seriously flawed. As an explanation of local democratic involvement, it completely missed out the voluntary sector, local partnerships and so on, which some of us tried to put in but failed. As my noble friend said, it is extremely prescriptive. If it is localism, it is top-down localism of the kind that we are criticising in this Bill, and it is very pleasant to see that this Bill is getting rid of a bit of that.
The effect that this part of the Act has had since it was passed appears to have been zero in most parts of the country. I am not aware of any authority having done anything significant as a result of this legislation, and in two-tier areas it set up a ridiculous bureaucratic system of exchange of information. Again, I have no idea how many councils have actually been carrying out this duty, but I suspect that a lot of them have just been ignoring the legislation because it was fairly useless. So I, too, rejoice that this duty is going, and I wish that the spirit behind this clause was more prevalent in some other parts of this Bill.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, I will not please you all but I thank noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. This clause removes the duty on principal local authorities in England and Wales to provide information to people about how local government systems work. This might include providing information on the role of councillors, councils, relevant public bodies, civic roles and so forth. As has been indicated, it was part of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009. My noble friend Lord Greaves has not heard much about it is because the duty has not yet commenced and therefore its repeal will have no significant impact on authorities. We therefore wish to remove it from the statute book as it would constitute, if it were to be enacted, an unnecessary burden on local authorities.
The Government are committed to enhancing local democracy, but they also want to guard against adding costly burdens to local authorities. Many authorities are already doing lots of good work to provide information to people about local government systems without having a duty placed on them to do so.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I entirely agree with noble Lords who reject the notion of overprescription in this or any other part of the Bill. However, removing a duty to promote democracy altogether sends an unfortunate signal. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, seemed to admit that he wanted to add to prescription when the Bill was originally debated because he wanted to include bodies to which reference is not made, which is a slight inconsistency.
Lord Greaves
In my defence, I should say that there are two lines of attack for Governments, although I should not use that phrase at the moment. The first is that the whole thing should not exist. The second is that if it does exist, we should try to improve it, which is our view on a lot of this Bill. If this was such a wonderful thing, why did the previous Government spend two years after the Bill was enacted not commencing this part?
Lord Beecham
The noble Lord will be aware that, no doubt for good reasons, I was not a member of the previous Labour Government and I cannot answer for them. They did not do everything that we would have wished in local government. Perhaps this matter did not achieve the priority that some of us would have liked. In replying, the Minister is right to point out possible costs of the detailed guidance that his civil servants are so ready to produce. Of course, that does not mean that that degree of prescription is unnecessarily desirable and that the costs will necessarily have been incurred.
If we want to encourage participation in local government and voter turnout, the people standing for election or seeking to serve their community as magistrates need encouragement and information. The community as a whole needs to be informed about what its local authority can and cannot do, and how it might be influenced. Much of the Bill is about those processes going on in different ways at different levels. The duty would have reinforced the thrust of the Bill. With respect, I still do not see why it is being removed.
I note that the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, is not in his place. Perhaps his two colleagues have taken him to one side because he subscribed to my amendment.
Lord Tope
My Lords, I do not want to disappoint the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and I will not do so. Once again, I rejoice at this clause and very much wish it to stand part of the Bill, unlike my noble friend, Lord Shipley, and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. We spent many hours—I have a recollection that it was probably many days—on this part of the Bill. We discussed pages and pages in extraordinary detail, debating how to collect, submit, and process petitions. When the Bill started in your Lordships’ House, the debate seemed to be based entirely on the premise that a petition to a local council was of the same format and standing as a petition to Parliament. In fact, all of us who have been councillors will have seen petitions to councils, and know that they are not usually the most formal documents you are likely to come across. They are of their nature at their best, because they are collected by and within the local community and do not have any formal standing or, often, any formal wording, as was originally suggested in the Bill.
We asked for evidence during all of this that local authorities were not dealing properly with petitions. I find it hard to believe that there can be a local authority of any size in the country that does not receive petitions. I wanted evidence that they were not dealing with them properly. The one merit of our hours of debate was that we discovered that quite a lot of local authorities, including the local authority of the then Secretary of State, did not adequately describe their procedure for dealing with petitions on their websites. The fault was not so much with the procedures of the council as with the adequacy of their websites. My own authority, and I am sure many others, improved their websites considerably as a result. That was a useful outcome, but it justified neither the hours that we spent on it nor the fact that it was all laid down in such prescriptive detail in a Bill.
The other useful factor of the debate was that it addressed the rather more modern issue of e-petitions, to which some local authorities probably had not then given sufficient attention. As a result of the Bill, and subsequently the Act, some authorities, including my own, probably gave them more consideration and put them on their websites.
We do not need an Act of Parliament to do that; we do not need pages and pages of prescription to do that; it is quite simply good practice, which could, possibly was and certainly should have been disseminated by the Local Government Association, in which the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, played such a leading part. I shall not disappoint the noble Lord: I once again rejoice at this clause.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I cannot resist adding just a little bit to what has been said. I went back to the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act when I saw Clause 29 stand part on the Marshalled List. There are in it 10 pages of detailed, prescriptive instructions to local authorities about how to receive petitions. Our discussions on that part of the Bill were extremely long, and I hold my hands up and say I was largely responsible for that. I remember my noble friend Lord Tope, having arrived back from one of his European trips, coming into the Moses Room, where we were discussing the Bill in Committee, and saying, “Good heavens! You’re not still on petitions, are you?”. But we were. I again pay tribute to the two then Ministers, including the noble Lord, Lord Patel, who is in his place, for making some effort to improve that part of the Bill. I think that it was 14 or 15 pages when it started off, and we at least got it down to 10.
My view is that very few authorities have taken petitions through this system, and that most petitions to local authorities since the legislation came into operation have continued to be dealt with as they always have been. I do not think that my own council has had a single one. We have had one or two that appeared to qualify. In those cases, we have suggested that the petitioners do what everybody else does and just go along to the area committee, talk to the petition in the normal way, and get it dealt with within days rather than the weeks and weeks of bureaucratic procedure set out in that part of the Bill. So I, too, rejoice that this nonsense has gone. I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, that we are getting a bigger and more dangerous nonsense, which we will discuss later on today.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, I am delighted to respond once more to further rejoicing. I thank the noble Lords for their contributions.
At present, local authorities are required to make, publish and comply with a scheme for the handling of petitions made to the authority. It must include centrally prescribed information, and the scheme and any subsequent changes to it must be approved by a meeting of the full council. Local authorities are also required to provide a facility for making electronic petitions to the authority.
The current legislation means that local authorities must respond to a petition in a certain way and must hold a full council debate if it is signed by the number of people specified in the council’s petition scheme. Senior officers can also be called to account and are required to take part in a public meeting if a petition meets a signature threshold. Petitioners can request that the council’s overview and scrutiny committee reviews the council’s response to the petition if it feels it is not adequate. The prescription and cumbersome bureaucracy this has piled on local authorities is unjustifiable. I am not aware of any evidence that the service received by local people has improved, yet unlike the previous matter it has already resulted in a burden of £4.2 million across the sector, as well as money spent on set-up costs.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, this is a different matter. We are now on to a substantive issue which the Government seek to introduce into the law of the land and to bind into the practice of local authorities.
I understand that John Major as Prime Minister was a great devotee of the novels of Trollope, regularly reading them, and I think his predecessor Harold Macmillan was much the same. I am wondering whether the present Secretary of State, Mr Pickles, has become a devotee of Dickens. He seems to be metamorphosing into a fusion of Dickens’ characters—a combination of Wackford Squeers, Mr Bumble and Gradgrind, leavened by a dash of Mr Pickwick. However, he is now developing, and has for some time developed, an obsession with waste and refuse collection. This seems to add Boffin, the golden dustman, to the cast list of Dickens’ characters which he is absorbing into his persona. I have never understood the Secretary of State's obsession with this issue. He has, to put it mildly, irritated local politicians of all parties, including the then chairman of the relevant board of the Local Government Association, Paul Bettison—a leading member of the Conservative Party and a leading figure in Conservative local government circles—by suggesting that charge and waste reduction schemes should not be implemented. He has, of course, opined many times about the number of refuse collections that should take place nationally.
First, this obsession seems inappropriate in any event for a Secretary of State. Secondly, one has to ask: what is a specific provision on a particular service doing in a Bill about localism? The Bill makes considerable play of giving councils a power of general competence and talks about the role of local government generally and of local communities, while Ministers frequently refer to the need to avoid prescription—we have heard that more than once this afternoon already. What could be more prescriptive than banning local authorities from a proposal to deal with waste problems, especially since the prescription that the Secretary of State would apply takes no notice of differences in localities or the implications for environmental issues such as recycling?
It is not as if the proposals about charging schemes were prescribed in their turn or as if councils had to embark on such policies. That would have been equally wrong because, again, different circumstances apply to different places. Even within an individual authority, there are areas where particular schemes would be appropriate and others where they are clearly not. It is obviously a matter for local decision but this Secretary of State, in his obsessive regard to this topic, seems to be intent on ruling out something that not many authorities have actually chosen to do. That is their choice. I do not think that many have gone in for those schemes so, again, the question has to be asked: why is this being inserted into the Bill? If it is to be a matter of political debate, should it not be debated rather than prescribed?
Noble Lords opposite have rejoiced at the abolition of prescription in the two areas which we have debated so far this afternoon. I hope they will join me in rejecting this considerable area of prescription that the Secretary of State wishes to impose on local government with absolutely no warrant at all, on the basis of evidence or of the public good.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, the noble Lord is persuasive in his arguments by suggesting that what is happening here is that the Government are removing the freedoms of local authorities, but it is not quite like that. The freedoms that he is talking about are very prescriptive and if he reads the particular part of the Climate Change Act, he will discover that. These waste reduction schemes are all nonsense, really. I keep using that word but I remember that this is another part of a Bill where I made a nuisance of myself in your Lordships’ House by detaining the House for probably too long while it was being debated and discussed.
The Bill refers to schemes relating to the amount of waste, the size and type of the containers and the frequency of collections. There was what was colloquially known at the time as the chip-in-bin scheme, where a chip in a bin would in some magic way measure the amount of waste being provided. There was the big bin and little bin scheme, where if you had a little bin you were okay and got it for free, but if you had a big bin you had to pay more for it, which affected large families. There was the pound-a-sack scheme, where you had to go and buy approved sacks for a pound each and fill them up—a scheme which was reported to have worked extremely well in Maastricht, but probably nowhere else. There was also a frequency of collection scheme, where you had a weekly collection, but if you wanted it more frequently you had to pay—the pay per day scheme. So these four schemes took on an iconic quality as far as the last Government were concerned, but they have never been brought into effect because they are not the way to go about it.
Rather unusually, what the Secretary of State is doing is championing a waste collection service that is a universal free service. That is what he is championing and I thought the Labour Party used to believe in such things. But not now, it wants the chips-in-bins and the pound-per-sacks schemes and all the rest of it. I am delighted to see this go. I wish we had been able to persuade the last Government that we should not have wasted all that time on legislation that was never introduced.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, Clause 30 removes powers that enable local authorities to run pilot waste reduction schemes. We announced our intention to remove these powers in June 2010. We believe that rewards rather than penalties are the best way to encourage people to reduce the amount of waste they produce. We wish to see local authorities helping householders to do the right thing with their waste, rather than punishing them for doing the wrong thing. We also consider that schemes which include fines based on the weight of residual waste left out by householders are likely to result in fly-tipping and other anti-social behaviour.
This Government are clear that rewarding householders for recycling or for reducing waste is to be encouraged; we want to help them to do the right thing. Removing these powers in the Climate Change Act will free up local authorities to use their broader well-being powers or general powers of competence, as appropriate, to provide rewards for waste reduction. Since their introduction there has been little appetite for using the Climate Change Act powers. No local authority has yet applied to take up a charge-and-reward scheme and no schemes will be dismantled as a result of their removal.
This clause simply removes Sections 71 to 75 of Part 5 and Schedule 5 from the Climate Change Act 2008. This will remove the provisions for waste reduction schemes but have no wider effect on the powers of, or burdens upon, local authorities. It is interesting that Royal Assent was on 26 November 2008, two and a half years ago, and no one has sought to bring this in. I therefore beg to move that these clauses stand part of the Bill.
Localism Bill
Lord Greaves Excerpts(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Rennard
My Lords, I should declare an interest as a recent vice-president of the Local Government Association. Perhaps I should also say that I am a member of your Lordships’ Select Committee on the Constitution. Therefore, I wish to consider this evening some issues of principle about when referendums are appropriate.
On 12 October last year, we debated the Select Committee’s report on the principle of referendums. I said that,
“the Select Committee was right to see significant drawbacks to the widespread use of referendums”.—[Official Report, 12/10/10; col. 428.]
The House expressed many reservations about holding referendums in a representative democracy.
Many noble Lords who spoke in that debate quoted powerful evidence given to the Select Committee about the problems of referendums. They included: people potentially voting on issues different from those on the ballot paper, or voting for or against a Government rather than on a specific issue; problems with getting sufficient turnout for any result to be legitimate; problems with ensuring that both sides of an argument had sufficient resources to make their case; and problems with undue influence being exerted by dominant media groups or party machines.
The case against widespread use of referendums was made very strongly. My noble friend Lord McNally said that he had not found a committee report that had been so much respected by officials and Ministers. He said:
“This is not a report that has been put on the shelf and forgotten”.
My noble friend drew attention to the fact that in his official response to the report, Mr Mark Harper, on behalf of the Government, agreed that,
“referendums should be exceptional events”.—[Official Report, 12/10/10; col. 471.]
These were seen as being required only for major constitutional changes such as to abolish the monarchy, to leave the European Union, or for any of the nations of the UK to secede and so on.
The question must now be asked whether we should have similar concerns about local referendums. Should they become common or should they be rare? On what sort of issues should they be held, and how easily could they be triggered given all these potential problems? There seems at the very least to be a possibility of an allegation of double standards being made if national government are saying that their policy programme should be subject to a referendum only on major constitutional issues, but that all issues decided by locally elected representatives should potentially be subject to referendums, with all the problems that we know about of conducting referendums fairly.
No national Government have ever suggested, for example, that their powers of taxation be subject to a referendum. Many national controversies have been debated in this House, the other place and across the country without the suggestion that national government should resolve the issue by putting it to a referendum.
Since that debate last October we have also had experience of a national referendum. Many of those on the no side in that referendum campaign argued that a reason for voting no was simply the cost of holding the referendum, even though these costs were minimised by holding it at the same time as many other elections. Those who argued this case on the no side must now argue why local referendums should be conducted at the expense of council tax payers in addition to the cost of electing local councillors.
If such local referendums are to be held, then we should be much clearer about when they are appropriate than is outlined so far in this Bill. There must be substantial proven public demand for them locally. They should not simply be a device that either a local council or the Secretary of State can use to avoid the sort of considered judgment that should be taken by elected representatives and be subject to examination at election times.
There may be problems with some council administrations being unrepresentative of the areas that they serve. Some councils are effectively one-party states. The answer is to make those councils more representative—not to make each of their decisions potentially subject to a referendum.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for turning up in time so I did not have to deliver his speech, which he did far better than I would have done. I just want to add one or two things and speak to the specific amendments which my noble friend and I have put forward.
The noble Lord, Lord True, and the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, spoke about how opposition parties and opposition councillors might well use referendums to promote their own interests. In my own local political career I can think of major issues where I would have had, in the words of the noble Lord, Lord True, a great deal of fun. We would have made useful political points but it would have cost people a lot of money and it would not have been the right way to do it.
What concerns me more than what opposition parties and opposition councillors might do is the way in which parties in control, or mayors or anyone else with the ability, might use referendums to manipulate the political and electoral process by launching referendums on populist issues to entrench their own local power. I am not suggesting that all such local leaders would ever do that but, without naming names, I can think of one or two around the country who might regard this as manna from heaven. You organise a referendum on a good populist issue or a bad populist issue to coincide with the year of your re-election and have it on the same day as your re-election to turn the referendum campaign into your election campaign and—Bob’s your uncle—you are probably back. As I understand the Bill, there will be no limits on referendum expenses so it would blow a huge hole in the rules for local election expenses.
People organising referendums—whether they are organising a petition for it or whether they are persons in power trying to use it for populist purposes—may be goodies. They may be doing it for benign purposes but they might not: they might be malign extremists movements or commercially motivated and commercially biased or politicians seeking re-election, as I just said. Whatever it is, there is a severe risk that they undermine the processes of representative democracy, which rely a great deal on proper procedures, democratic deliberation, debate and compromise and the role of the council as a mediator in the community—which I think the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, was talking about last week.
You cannot compromise in a referendum. Everything is black and white; everything is yes or no. It polarises the community and, while it might be a lot of fun for people taking part in it, it simplifies what are often quite complex issues and runs the risk of undermining the whole process of liberal democracy in the local community. We are generally sceptical about the value of Chapter 1 of Part 4 of the Bill and if it is to remain, we believe it needs a much stricter tying-up so that the number of referendums which can take place are relatively few and are on appropriate subjects.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, not for the first time Newcastle is united in connection with the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. A working figure of 10 per cent is probably about right. The figures suggested in some other amendments are on the high side; 25 per cent is more than half the average turnout in a council election. It is asking a lot to postulate a requirement for a petition to have as high a signature rate as that.
I tabled amendment in this group in relation to the areas from which a referendum might be called. The Bill provides for the whole authority or one or more electoral areas, provided they are contiguous within it. That sounds plausible, but if you take, for example, Birmingham, you have wards with an electorate of about 20,000. That argues a population of something like 30,000. It is in effect a small town. That is big enough to contain more than one discrete and substantial community. My amendment simply suggests that in addition to the two criteria laid down in terms of area in the Bill, there could be a further provision, namely,
“such area as may be determined by the authority”.
An authority could say: go and petition the area, we acknowledge it is not the whole of the ward, but we are prepared to accept a smaller area than an electoral division. It gives a degree of flexibility which I think might be reasonable. That is the effect of Amendment 120J.
I was interested to hear the observations of the noble Lord, Lord True, who was emphatically endorsing the principles of petitioning as an alternative to referendums. I wish he had been here to support me and the absent noble Lord, Lord Shipley, when I proposed this afternoon that the provision that would strike out the petition procedure should not be supported and that the provisions of the 2009 Act should continue to apply. Be that as it may, he is right to prefer petitions to referendums; they are undoubtedly better. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, for his analysis of the defects of referendums, taken at large, and his reference to the report of the Constitution Committee last year.
He and other noble Lords are right to point to some of the dangers that can arise and the mischief that can be made. In the next group of amendments, we shall come to the point about members of councils calling referendums. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, about that and support his amendment. However, one can clearly see a variety of difficulties. For example, in my own ward there is currently a proposal for a historic building, which has been acquired by the Muslim community, to be made into a school and community centre. The BNP is already stirring up hostility to that proposal. It is not just a planning proposal; it is a proposal for a school and so on. The amendments on planning would cover the planning side but it goes beyond that. One can clearly see the difficulties that could arise from the referendum process, a public vote and so on.
I put another case: tomorrow we shall debate elected police commissioners. If you wanted to stand to be an elected police commissioner and were building up your campaign, it would not be difficult to orchestrate a series of referendums across the area—which might be a single county or an area bigger than that—in the run-up to the election. A local election does not have to be a straightforward party political contest. There are all sorts of ways in which the system could be used and manipulated, which underlines the need to be very careful about substituting plebiscitary democracy for representative local democracy. As the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, said at some length and with some eloquence in our first debate on the Bill, the core principle in a series that he enunciated is that of support for local representative local democracy. There is danger even in non-binding referendums. There may then be pressure for binding referendums, although not from the Government, except in one particular. You can see that outside the major political parties, there could a build-up of pressure for binding referendums to be held on the Swiss or Californian models, nether of which are very persuasive as instruments of good government.
With the characteristic generosity that marks the political approach of the Opposition, we support most of the amendments proposed by the Liberal Democrats in this group. However, with respect to the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, and the noble Lord, Lord True, their proposed figure is too high and difficult to justify.
We shall probably just have time to move on to the next group of amendments. I note with some alarm one amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, which would reduce the percentage to 1 per cent and fix it at that, which strikes me as going much too far. We shall come to that this evening or on Thursday. We are not voting tonight but I invite the noble Lords to continue to convey to the Government their concerns about the way in which these proposals have been made. I hope the Government will take another look, particularly at the threshold figures if they are not prepared to depart from the principle of promoting referendums. I look forward to our debate on Report and to a response that reflects the views that have been expressed tonight.
Lord Greaves
Before the noble Lord sits down, will he comment on the view that in many cases, whether or not a referendum is mandatory, if it has been high-profile and hard-fought, it will be very difficult—certainly for a district council—to go against the decision? In practice, and in political reality, they will have to abide by it.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I am not able to give a specific answer to that. All I can say is that the noble Baroness will be aware of the current situation in respect of parish polls and we will be consulting on the parish regime and, no doubt, consulting the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, in particular.
Lord Greaves
I have just a couple of points. When we get to Clause 56 on parish councils we will have a stand part debate. It would be extremely helpful if the Government had some fairly clear ideas on where they are going on parish councils because those are the questions we will be asking.
The Minister said that the Government thought that it was right that people in an area should have a say on whether or not there should be a referendum, but if there is a petition signed by 5 per cent of the people to have a referendum, why should that prevail over an alternative petition in the same area signed by 10 per cent or 20 per cent of people who do not want a referendum?
Environment: Drought
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Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
At one time there were plans for a salination plant to be built in the Thames—
Noble Lords