Heather and Grass etc. Burning (England) Regulations 2021

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Thursday 18th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, where I live, we are surrounded by moors. I would describe them as peat moors; a lot of them are heather moors and a lot are grass moors. Every year, there are fires on them. Some of them are managed fires on the grouse-shooting estates. Others are unmanaged fires caused by people who accidentally drop cigarette ends, or whatever, or have barbeques. It is not quite central to this statutory instrument, but I have asked questions of the Government previously about banning people from having barbeques on open country of this kind. The answer I get is that it is up to local authorities. The problem is that many of these moors are, by definition, the places where local authority boundaries are drawn, because they are up on the hills and the tops between the valleys, and getting local authorities together to organise jointly on this is not easy. I will just make that point.

The Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments has written a pretty damning report on the SI that has been presented. I think it is another example of how regrettable it is, with the way that parliamentary business is being organised at the moment, that there has not been the opportunity or the time available for the Government and the Joint Committee to discuss it and negotiate properly in the way in which it always happened in the past. We are told by the Government that they do not agree with it; the department says that it does not agree with it. That is not satisfactory—they should be having a discussion, getting together and sorting it out before it comes here. It is very unsatisfactory for us to have a statutory instrument where the JCSI is basically saying, “Don’t pass it”.

Environment and Wildlife (Miscellaneous Amendments etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd November 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Greaves (LD) [V]]

My Lords, this is not a major matter of controversy today. It is, as the Minister has set out, a statutory instrument that mainly makes sure that existing rules and regulations, particularly in relation to air quality and the British implementation of CITES, continue after the end of the year until such time further changes have been made. In addition, there is the Northern Ireland business, which I have no doubt will affect all kinds of things in due course, but, for the moment, I do not want to say anything about that.

A lot of us do not have a lot of time for this Government and do not think that what they are going to do will be wonderful, but we are, to some extent, hopeful that the Minister in this House, who has introduced these regulations, will be a friend of the environment. At the moment, we are simply saying, “Yes, okay, this seems to be what is necessary in a technical way to go forward”. The important question now is, after we have disentangled ourselves from the European Union—at least in legal terms—at the end of this year, will the Government’s approach to the environment improve or will it not? Is the legislation that we are going to get—and we all look forward very much to the arrival of the Environment Bill in your Lordships’ House—going to result in improved legislation and stronger controls over pollution, for example, or is it going to be an opportunity to deregulate and allow things to get worse? We do not really know the answer to that yet. We have had an Agriculture Bill that is full of promises of what might happen but with no clear guarantees of what will happen, and so we are just marking time at the moment. On that basis, this statutory instrument is to be supported.

Pesticides (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd November 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Greaves (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for setting out these extremely detailed and complicated regulations. I confess that, despite making an attempt, I do not pretend to understand them all. Still, it is clear that they refer to plant protection products, pesticides and fertilisers, and maximum residue levels of pesticides. They deal with the new situation in Northern Ireland, as did the previous regulations, to take account of the fact that Northern Ireland will still be in line with the EU. What will be the difference, if any, between the regulations in Northern Ireland and those in the UK?

During the debate in your Lordships’ House on the Agriculture Bill, an amendment was passed to strengthen the protection for residents and others in the vicinity of crop spraying using harmful, poisonous substances. The House passed it and the House of Commons sent it back, and it was a sadness to many that the House did not pursue it further in ping-pong. One reason why that was the case is the belief that it can come back in the Agriculture Bill and we can all have another go at it, but it would be very helpful if the Minister could say whether the Government, in a more relaxed way away from legislation, are looking at whether regulations can be introduced to provide greater distancing—social distancing, I suppose—between people spraying pesticides and residents and others.

Clearly this SI does not remedy that position, but there has been concern from the UK Pesticides Campaign at the removal of the ability to challenge a failure to comply with these regulations at a European level, which will clearly be the position after the end of the year. The question for the Minister is: what will be the way in which people in this country can go to the courts to force the Government or other authorities to comply with legislation?

The UK Pesticides Campaign has also raised a question about the collection of information and reporting of suspected poisonings. It says that, as far as it can see, the requirement for that in so far as it exists at the moment—the campaign has suggested that the requirement is not strong enough anyway—will be removed by the regulations. I have seen a response to that from Defra saying that the matter is covered by other regulations. I do not understand that at all, but I shall read out some names: the EU official controls regulation 2017, which came into force on 14 December last and was implemented in the UK by the Official Controls (Plant Protection Products) Regulations 2020. That is what I understand the reply to say. Perhaps the Minister can explain whether this is the case, exactly how it works and whether the collection and reporting of information has in practice not been changed in any way by their removal from the regulations. I do not know whether he can do that today; if not, perhaps he can write and tell us all about it.

There have also been concerns from ClientEarth, most of which again are very technical. I shall pick out two general concerns that it is putting forward that the Minister might like to devote a little attention to when he replies. The first is the suggestion that, because there is no longer a requirement that detailed criteria on the uniform application of conditions on by-products

“shall ensure a high level of protection of the environment and human health and facilitate the prudent and rational utilisation of natural resources”,

that means there is a weakening of environmental protections. If the Minister believes that is not the case, perhaps he can explain how and why.

ClientEarth also suggests that there is a removal from these regulations, or at least a weakening, of the polluter pays principle. It would be helpful if the Minister explained the degree to which the Government believe in the polluter pays principle and the degree to which they intend to strengthen it rather than weaken it, if that is the case. I look forward to the Minister’s reply and to the contributions by other people to this debate.

Flooding Update

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Tuesday 25th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. On her first point, there has been continuous dialogue between Defra officials, Environment Agency officials and their counterparts in Wales and Scotland. We have seen an extraordinary coming together of the various agencies—the fire service, the police, the Environment Agency, local authorities and volunteers—and that collaboration and co-operation will clearly need to continue. On her broader point about tree-planting targets, we will be publishing a tree strategy in the coming months and a flood strategy will be published around springtime. We are very keen to ensure that those two strategies are not developed entirely in isolation. Inevitably, part of the answer to the flood strategy will be found in the tree strategy, and it is very important that when we honour that 30,000-hectare commitment, we do so in a way that solves as many problems as possible. We should not aim only for carbon absorption, which is merely one of the benefits of planting trees in the way that we have committed to do.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, in response to the Oral Question that I asked, in relation to the flood recovery fund for local businesses and households, the Minister said that responsibility for the first 25 houses and an unspecified number of local businesses falls on the local authority. However, will the Government have another look at that? I understand that this new rule has only just come in, but local authorities really cannot be expected to budget for something that has just happened. Furthermore, who is responsible if, as a result of the recent storms and downpours, flooding comes from an active building site because of disturbance to the land? I remind the House that I am a local councillor in Lancashire and I refer to a site in the ward that I represent. Persimmon is developing a site on a steep hillside there and some pre-existing properties, as well as some of the new properties that are occupied on the site, have been flooded. Persimmon is telling the occupiers of those properties that the damage is not its responsibility because it is an act of God. Whose responsibility is it?

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. His first point related to the property level flood resilience, or PFR, scheme. He is right to say that this scheme is deployed locally. The view is that local authorities are much better placed and know more about their local areas than central government when it comes to providing the support that is needed. I do not believe that the policy is new, but I am happy to be corrected or to provide a correction if that is wrong. I am afraid that I cannot answer the noble Lord’s question about building sites, so I will have to get back to him about who is responsible in the grey area between development and keys being handed over.

European Union Referendum Bill

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Wednesday 4th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

It is very unusual that I am able to answer a quite lengthy intervention from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, more than satisfactorily with a single word—yes. That is exactly what happened in 1975, exactly what my amendment calls for and exactly what I think is required on this occasion. I will give way to the noble Lord.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

I merely intervene to say that I must be older than the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, because I played an active part in the 1975 referendum. It was not a leaflet that was put out from each side and from the Government: there were three little booklets. Does the noble Lord, Lord Davies, agree with that?

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I am most grateful for that intervention. I know that the noble Lord has a very long history of public life in local government before he came here and takes a great interest in these matters. He is absolutely right. Exactly what I have in mind is something that is an intelligent summary of the case which sets out the essential facts. There is far too much spin in the political world in which we live. We know that there is far too much dishonesty, suppression of material fact for the convenience of Governments and far too many back-stairs, deniable, non-attributable briefings and so on.

We want a situation in which any household in this country can have access if they wish to intelligent arguments both ways and can make up their own minds on that basis. Not only do I think that this would be an important element in the campaign and a great contribution to democratic transparency and democratic involvement, it would be a very good thing to go back to some of those first principles which we had in 1975 and make sure that this campaign involves serious consideration by as many people as possible of the real issues—albeit that we know that some people will be influenced by prejudices and emotive language, and some by the tabloids. But we hope that the number of those people is small in relation to our total democracy and that we have intelligent discussion, debate and consideration before we take a dramatic decision about our nation’s future.

European Union Referendum Bill

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Wednesday 4th November 2015 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Greaves]

48A: Schedule 3, page 53, line 3, at end insert—
“(1A) The steps mentioned in subsection (1) must include taking action, as soon as the date of the referendum has been announced, to bring to the attention of eligible electors who are not registered what they must do in order to register in time to vote in the referendum.
(1B) In carrying out the action provided for by subsection (1A), the Electoral Commission must in particular take steps to promote the registration of—
(a) young voters, and(b) eligible United Kingdom electors who are resident in other member states of the European Union.”

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, this amendment moves back one stage, from talking about how to get people to vote, and how to get them to vote in different ways, to the question of registration, which is how to make sure that people are actually on the electoral register so that they have the opportunity to make a decision whether or not to vote.

The House got terribly excited about registration last week when we were talking about the statutory instrument, and a decision was made. As a result of that decision, the new system of individual registration will come in from December this year and something like 1.8 million names will be removed from that register. What nobody really knows, as far as I can see, is how many of those names are genuine voters who should be there and how many are not. However, it is very clear—from talking to some of these people locally and helping them to get registered—that many of the 1.8 million are people who should be on the register and, indeed, many of them are people who voted in the elections in May this year. I do not think anybody knows exactly how many of the 1.8 million voted this year. There is a problem and a challenge there now for everybody to try to make sure that as many of them as possible who are real voters get back on the electoral register.

In addition, according to the Electoral Commission, throughout the UK there are something like 8 million voters who ought to be registered but are not. Although some of them may be people who have no interest, do not want to be registered and never will be, whatever the law may say, quite a few of them are people who ought to be registered and, if they were, might take the opportunity to vote.

The purpose behind the amendment is to probe the Government and the Electoral Commission about what they are going to do and what they think should be done specifically to get people on to the electoral register for the referendum, when it comes. Of course, we also have elections in May next year, but this is specifically about the referendum.

In the amendment, I have highlighted two groups of people who are underregistered: young voters and eligible voters who live in the rest of the European Union—although many eligible voters who live abroad live in other parts of the world and would have the right to vote in the referendum if they were registered. They are eligible if they are UK citizens living abroad and have not lived abroad for more than 15 years—or whatever period we end up with in the Bill; at the moment, 15 years.

I had a very useful letter about the amendment from the Electoral Commission, which rightly points out that there are other underrepresented groups that it will wish to target. It points out that the two groups that I have mentioned are two among several more groups that it targeted before the general election with some success—different levels of success, I think. They include people who have moved house recently, people in private rented accommodation—in areas where private rented accommodation is pretty well at the bottom of the housing market, they are often the same people who are moving around all the time—and some BME groups, not all, but some, which are underrepresented.

I want particularly to focus on the question of people living within the European Union, because these are clearly British citizens who have a particular personal, direct interest in the outcome of the referendum, whatever they may think about it. According to the Electoral Commission, something like 100,000 overseas voters were registered at the general election. Whatever the total number of British citizens abroad eligible to vote in UK elections, 100,000 is a small proportion of them. It was higher than it has ever been before—three times as high as it was at the previous election, I think —but still very low.

It is said that there are 2 million or more United Kingdom citizens resident in the EU. I do not know how many of those are entitled to vote under the 15-year rule, and I do not know how many of them are adults—not children, who cannot vote—but it is clear that there is a large number of British citizens living in the EU who have a direct interest in the referendum who are not registered at the moment. I have seen estimates from other people suggesting that the figure of 2 million is on the low side, because it is based on people who are registered as living in other European countries, and there are lots of British citizens who do not register with the local authorities. Many of these people have dual addresses; they have an address in this country, and they spend part of the time in the rest of Europe. They ought to be registered here, where one of their homes is. So perhaps 2 million is the figure to consider.

Anecdotal evidence from people I have talked to in other EU countries—including people I talked to in the south of France when I was there fairly recently—is that if you live outside this country, registering to vote as a UK elector is not as easy as it ought to be. I have spoken to people who tried to vote at the general election but failed the double obstacle that they have to go through. The first obstacle is registering to vote and the second is applying for and receiving a postal vote—getting on the postal voters register.

The electoral registration can now be done online, and that applies wherever you live in the world—so that is okay. But what if the national insurance number that you have to give now in order to be put on the electoral register is not validated by the DWP? That happens with lots of people. I do not know why that is the case; I have not got to the bottom of it. However, there is no doubt at all that the validation has not worked for lots of people, which is one reason why there are many among the 1.8 million coming off the register who are genuine voters and genuine people. They have not been able to match up their national insurance numbers and not provided other means of identification to replace the NI number. Providing those other means of identification is more difficult and messy if you live abroad The anecdotal evidence is that, before the general election this year, local authorities were not always quick enough in processing and dealing with these applications.

Secondly, the postal vote applications have to be in writing. There must be a piece of paper which is sent off, or it can be scanned and sent by email—and perhaps by fax as well. That is a more complicated process. I have talked to people who managed to get on the electoral register but did not manage to get through the hoops of getting a postal vote when they were up against the deadline shortly before the elections. There seem to be some bureaucratic obstacles in this situation which are causing more difficulties for people in Europe than for some of the people here.

Registration for people whose NI numbers do not match with the DWP and are not validated is sometimes a nightmare in terms of getting the appropriate documentation in. It is not easy—and I have been dealing with some specific cases back in Lancashire where I live. In addition to what the Electoral Commission tells me it will do—that is, conduct a similar campaign to the one it held to get people registered before the general election; it had something called a “boats and planes” campaign for people outside this country—it will have to make very special efforts indeed, together with the Government, starting as soon as possible, if people living in other European countries are not to be deprived of the vote in the referendum to which they are properly entitled. I beg to move.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 48A, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, would require the Electoral Commission to inform unregistered eligible voters of the steps they need to take in order to vote in the referendum. The amendment requires the commission to do this as soon as the date of the referendum is announced, and to take particular steps, as the noble Lord says, to approach two groups of people. He acknowledged in moving his amendment that other groups also need to be alerted to their right to vote in the referendum. Of course, the Committee will understand that I am sympathetic to the noble Lord’s underlying aim, which is to ensure that people understand that they can vote and know how to register to do so. It is important in any democratic society that it is a duty of us all to be engaged in that, whether we are a voluntary worker in a political party, a paid politician, a member of the Electoral Commission or working in the community. It is part of what we should do to enable people to take part in the democratic process.

I can assure the noble Lord that provisions are in place to set in motion what he hopes to achieve. His amendment is unnecessary because the duties it imposes are already encompassed in paragraph 11(1) of Schedule 3, which requires the Electoral Commission to take,

“whatever steps they think appropriate to promote public awareness about the referendum and how to vote in it”.

As the noble Lord said, he has heard from the Electoral Commission, and it is fully seized of its duty and the actions it should take.

I am sure we all agree that this is about all eligible voters, not just making specific groups aware of their right to vote—not just those British citizens living in the other 27 countries of the European Union, but those who live more widely abroad. The Electoral Commission has made it clear that it will take prompt action to alert people of their right to vote, and has made clear exactly what it plans to do. It plans to produce public information that explains the voting process, and to run a UK-wide campaign through TV, radio and digital advertising which highlights basic information about the referendum, such as the date and how to register to vote. This campaign will inform eligible voters in the United Kingdom of all ages of their right to vote, and additional steps will support this.

For example, the Cabinet Office continues to work closely with civil society organisations, including Bite The Ballot, to encourage underrepresented groups to register. The Electoral Commission is also working closely with officials in the Cabinet Office and my officials in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to ensure that eligible voters overseas are made aware of their voting rights and can vote with ease. This work includes ensuring that postal ballots sent overseas are correctly addressed and include the correct postage—details that have sometimes been overlooked. I appreciate the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. Alongside this, online registration is making registering to vote far more convenient, accessible and simple for young and overseas voters—far better than ever before. A person can register to vote on their smartphone, tablet or PC in as little as three minutes, as long as the link is working. The systems are there.

As the Bill already requires the Electoral Commission to take the action set out in the noble Lord’s amendment, and as clear progress is already being made in achieving its aims, I invite him to withdraw it.

[Lord Greaves]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for setting that all out. It is all absolutely true. She talks about the duty set out in the Bill, which is absolutely right, but the problem is carrying out that duty with regard to overseas electors. If only just over 100,000 were able to be on the register for the general election, clearly, the system up to now has not worked. My point is that, because of the very nature of this referendum, particularly as it impacts on British citizens in Europe—the Minister referred several times to people in the UK, but these people are not in the UK—more needs to be done than was done last time, and in different ways.

European Union Referendum Bill

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Tuesday 13th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate, which has ranged far and wide over the major strategic issues of the last 70 years in Europe, since the last war, right through to the issues of today, such as the wording of the referendum question and purdah. However, the Bill itself is mainly about very technical matters; 48 of the 56 pages concern detailed technical issues to do with the organisation of the referendum. I hope—others may not agree—that when we discuss this in Committee we will be able to carry out the House of Lords’ traditional role of scrutinising detail and spend at least a little of the time looking at these matters because they need scrutiny. There are a lot of ministerial powers set out here, for example, not just about the question of purdah, which I think we ought to look at and at the very least press the Government into saying what their intentions are.

On a minor detail, I express my personal thanks to the Government for the change to the Bill that means the referendum cannot be on 5 May next year, which is the day my current term of office as a local councillor comes to an end. If I decide to defend my seat, I would really prefer to do it without the encumbrance of a referendum on the European Union at the same time, which might divert attention from whether people want me again.

It has been a good debate and, in particular, I enjoyed the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth—who is not in his seat at the moment—who talked about going into battle waving a white flag not being the thing to do because you are giving up before you start. However, the problem is that some of us would rather that this referendum was not taking place and we have no real confidence that there will be any huge change as a result of the negotiations. The Prime Minister and others will come back with a huge amount of spin, trying to tell the country about all the great changes they have achieved, which will not add up to very much at all. To that degree, I agree with the noble Lords, Lord Forsyth and Lord Lawson, and people on their side. The problem is that I do not really want any changes before we have the vote. I am perfectly happy to vote for the European Union as it is now and get stuck in within the European Union to achieve what changes this country might like.

As for flying the flag, the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, said that he was responsible for flying some flags somewhere in Wales and had four in a row: one for Wales, one for the UK and I am not sure what the others were. That is exactly what we did in the town I live in, Colne in Lancashire, where we have four flags flying outside the town hall. I always thought it was rather nice, all the flags you saw outside continental town halls when you went to Europe—the European mainland, I should say—so we have done it in Colne. We have the union flag, the flag of England and the European flag, which we were told people would come and tear down but nobody did. The only one anybody ever tore down was the union flag and they were football hooligans who wanted to run round the streets in a drunken manner, waving it. We also have the Lancashire flag. It took some time to get Lancashire County Council to agree to allow us to use the Lancashire flag, or perhaps it was the sheriff who had to agree—I am not sure. In the end I had to go to see Louise Ellman, who at the time was chairman of Lancashire County Council, to knock some heads together because they said the Lancashire flag could be flown only on the county hall and on the county jail in Preston. It now flies in Colne as well and that is the way to fly flags: fly as many as possible to represent the things to which people feel allegiance. The danger with flags occurs when one flag is dominant and it becomes very nationalist.

The noble Lord, Lord Lamont, said that there had been a European distrust of democracy and democratic accountability, but I suggest that democracy is more than simply having elections and electing a leader or a group of people every so often. Representative democracy is indeed at the very heart of democracy but other things are too—things such as the rule of law, due process, equality and freedom under the law, and concepts of citizenship. Many of those concepts are as well known within the rest of Europe as they are in this country, and in some cases better known and better understood than they are in this country. How much better it is to have all those long, tedious and, some people think, extremely boring and time-wasting meetings in which European politicians and officials negotiate farm payments at 2 am to meet deadlines that expired at midnight and so on than it is to have them organising arms to shoot at each other.

One of the great triumphs of Europe is that it is 70 years—at least, within the European Union—since people in Europe were organised to shoot at each other. That is a huge triumph of Europe and, given its history, 70 years is a long time for that to have been the case. Anybody who thinks that Europe could not revert to a situation in which some of the countries that are now in the European Union start shooting at each other again is living in cloud-cuckoo-land. You have only to look not very far away—for example, to the eastern part of Ukraine—or to remember what happened in the Balkans just over 20 years ago to realise that there is nothing special about Europeans and that we are not a special kind of human being that does not engage in that sort of activity. The European Union has been absolutely fundamental in questions of war and peace. I hope that we will manage to talk about that in the referendum campaign and not just about trade, although, as a Liberal, I am not going to say that trade is not important.

I have two more brief points to make. One concerns the question of voting by 16 year-olds or whoever. One of the huge problems under the new system of individual electoral registration—which in general I support—is the registration of young voters. It is said that 2 million 18 to 24 year-olds are not registered and that among 17 year-olds—the attainers—only 25% are registered. That has to be tackled.

My final point is that it is all very well being able to vote as a British citizen living in another European Union country if you can get on the register and get your postal vote sent to you, but there is quite a lot of anecdotal evidence from the recent general election that people had problems with both those things. That is another issue that will have to be looked at if we have a referendum in which all these people in Europe vote.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Friday 24th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Tabled by

[Lord Greaves]

27: Clause 1, page 1, line 6, at end insert—
“(3A) The referendum shall be held on one of the following days—
(a) 7 May 2015,(b) 5 May 2016, or(c) 4 May 2017.(3B) If the ordinary local elections in England are not held on the appropriate date in subsection (3A), the Secretary of State shall by order appoint the date on which the referendum is to be held as the date of those elections in that year.”

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, there has been a lot of talk this afternoon about the Tea Party, whatever that may be. I think that it is time that we all went and had our tea. In the interests of being as helpful as the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, I shall not move my amendment.

Amendment 27 not moved.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I apologise but my understanding is that the relevant text in the Bill has been removed. Amendments 31 to 39 have fallen, as it were, because of the pre-emption. That provision has gone.

[Lord Greaves]

Perhaps I can help the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and the House. This is getting into such a mess that I think we should adjourn now, but that is a different issue. The amendment that has been carried removes subsection (4). All these other amendments seek to insert text on completely different issues after subsection (4). I do not think that the removal of subsection (4) pre-empts text on completely different issues that is sought to be inserted after that subsection. I hesitate to say this when the Clerk is jumping up and down, but just because the relevant measure refers to line 9, and line 9 has been removed, it clearly now refers to where line 9 would have been previously.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I am afraid that I think the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is wrong. The plain fact is that these amendments are now pre-empted. That is the advice of the Clerks, and that is that.