The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con)
My Lords, today’s debate has been vigorous and passionate, and rightly so. I believe that it presages the same kind of energy that we will see across the House when we reach Committee, and I look forward to engaging with noble Lords on those matters. Of course, I will continue to hold all-party meetings with noble Lords and will make sure that there is one such meeting before Committee. We have also produced some factsheets to assist noble Lords with some of the technical detail, and those will continue to be available.
Noble Lords have ranged very widely in their speeches today, and there is nothing wrong with that. We have heard many thoughtful, considered arguments across the whole panoply of issues and I have valued the opportunity to listen to those today. However, I trust that the House will understand that in my response I will focus mostly on the Bill itself, looking at its provisions and the principle of holding a referendum. Even though this Second Reading debate started at 11 o’clock this morning, I can see that Members of the House are as vigorous on this matter now as they were then. It is a model of the House of Lords for others to watch and, I hope, admire.
I have been asked many questions about the negotiations and perhaps I may deal with that matter first. The Prime Minister made it clear that there are four areas where he wants change: sovereignty, economic governance, competitiveness and immigration. For example, ever closer union—on which we had a very interesting exchange on the Floor of the House earlier this evening—may be right for others but we believe that it is not right for Britain. We wish to protect Britain’s interests outside the euro. We want to increase economic competitiveness to create jobs and growth for hard-working families, and we want to reform welfare to reduce the incentives that have led to the mass immigration from Europe.
Policy talks have been taking place between the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Foreign Secretary and the Minister for Europe with a range of our colleagues across the rest of the European Union. Technical talks on the four areas for reform set out by the Prime Minister began in June following the June European Council.
The noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, very properly asked the testing question—as he put it—of what the Prime Minister would do if he believes that the negotiation has not delivered the result he wants. In that case, would the Prime Minister recommend that Britain consider voting to leave the European Union? The Prime Minister has made it clear that, in those circumstances, he would rule nothing out. But he has also made it clear that he is confident that he will carry through a strong negotiation and achieve the right result for the UK and the rest of the European Union.
If I may, I will turn to the Bill itself. Noble Lords raised interesting points on the franchise for the poll, how we can ensure that the public can make an informed choice and, of course, the issues arising from Section 125 of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act. I will try to address some of those issues now. With the leave of the House, I will give an indicator of the Peers who spoke on a given issue without referring to each individual, given that over 50 people have spoken. Sometimes, where only one person raised an issue, I shall do so.
First, I am glad to see such clear support in this House for the Bill making its passage through Parliament and becoming law. I know that there is, shall we say, a difference of view about how welcome referendums are in principle and, perhaps, in practice. However, overwhelmingly, there was support for the principle of giving the British people the opportunity to have their say. As my noble friend Lord Dobbs said, let them have their voice and make the choice. On the other hand, my noble friend Lord Bowness thought the referendum unwelcome, but he recognised that the Bill should pass.
I am grateful to noble Lords for making it clear that the matter of the referendum question itself is settled and gives the British people the opportunity to make a clear choice: remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union. It is crucial to our ability to move forward as a nation that the referendum is fair and is seen to be fair. That is what this Bill sets out to deliver. Noble Lords made several suggestions about bringing forward amendments to, as they see it, improve that fairness.
The franchise has been raised, quite reasonably, as an issue of importance for the referendum. There have been multiple suggestions about who should be added. Noble Lords who referred to the franchise in various guises include the noble Baronesses, Lady Royall, Lady Morgan of Ely, Lady Smith of Newnham, Lady Crawley, and Lady Suttie; the noble Lords, Lord Tyler, Lord Jay, Lord Teverson, Lord Harrison, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, Lord Shipley, Lord Elis-Thomas, Lord Hannay, Lord Rooker, Lord Maclennan, and Lord Tomlinson; and my noble friends Lord Tugendhat and Lord Dobbs. I suspect that there are others who I have managed to miss, and I apologise to them.
The link between franchise and favouring one result over another has also been mentioned. It is important that we have a franchise that is seen to be fair. Given the national importance of this decision, we believe that the appropriate starting point is the Westminster franchise. To that, as noble Lords have commented, we have added Members of this House, who are already represented in Parliament, and Commonwealth and Irish citizens in Gibraltar. We believe that, in following the Westminster franchise, we are following precedent. The 1975 poll on EEC membership and the 2011 poll on the alternative vote system used the same franchise, with the exception of Gibraltar. The European Union Act 2011 used the same franchise, except, of course, that this Bill adds Irish citizens in Gibraltar for consistency with the position in the UK.
Noble Lords pointed to the inconsistency between the voting ages for different elections. We have responded to requests to increase the powers of the devolved Administrations. As a result, the power to determine the voting age for Scottish Parliament and local elections in Scotland was devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Therefore, 16 and 17-year olds in Scotland will be able to vote in these elections in 2016. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said that he believes that the Cabinet had been persuaded that it was a good idea that 16 and 17-year olds should vote in Scotland. The decision was taken by the Cabinet to devolve the decision to Scotland on the basis that it was right for them to make the decision. It was made clear at the time that that was the case.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
I shall, although I suspect that I shall then be cutting out a reference to other noble Lords. I am accurate in what I have said.
Lord Tyler
I will be as brief as I can. Is the Minister therefore saying that the Cabinet was not fully aware of the consequences of giving that decision to the Scottish Administration?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I did not say that in the slightest. I was correcting the impression that the Cabinet had made the decision to give the vote to 16 and 17 year-olds. I would not wish the accurate facts to be misunderstood: the Cabinet took the decision that the decision should be devolved to Scotland. I think it is right that Scotland made the decision because it was a referendum about the position of Scotland.
The Wales Bill will give to the Welsh Assembly the power to determine the voting age for Welsh Assembly and local elections in Wales. This change will not be made in time for the 2016 elections.
It is a fact that devolution gives rise to inconsistencies. I appreciate that there will be very lively debate on these matters when we get to Committee. Noble Lords have said, in support of extending the franchise to 16 and 17 year-olds, that we should value their views. We do. Others have said that young people are engaged and politically active, and that they are able to take these decisions. Indeed, this may well be true, but it is also true of many 15 year-olds, and we have not had a thorough debate on where the franchise should extend. One or two noble Lords referred to the fact that political engagement is not necessarily true of all 50 year-olds, but that is another matter. Political engagement, surely, or lack of it, should not be enough justification for giving or denying a vote to someone.
As I set out this morning, we believe that changing the entitlement to vote should be achieved through specific legislation. It should be considered properly; there should be full consultation; it should be considered through both Houses of Parliament in the normal manner; and it should command a consensus. Although I hear very strongly the views of the House today about 16 and 17 year-olds, I say to noble Lords that there is not consensus on this matter at the moment. I shall look forward to hearing further arguments in favour of changes to the franchise when we reach Committee. Apparently, Parliament has not had the time to scrutinise properly the implications of such a change.
The question of EU citizens voting has also been raised and debated. There is nothing in the EU treaties that says that EU citizens should be allowed to vote in referendums or parliamentary elections in other EU member states. This is for member states themselves—meaning this Parliament—to determine. It is the norm across the EU that EU citizens are not able to vote in national polls in other member states. I am not aware of any other member state that would extend such a vote to citizens of other EU states.
British citizens were not enfranchised, for example, in the Dutch or French referendums of 2005. Many EU nationals who have lived here for many years are a valued part of our society, and many of them choose to take UK citizenship. Whatever the cost, they choose to do so. They will, therefore, have the right to vote.
There are also questions about why certain people living overseas cannot vote.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
Will the noble Baroness recognise the point made by an earlier speaker that none of the precedents she talks about in the European Union relates to a country voting on whether to leave the European Union? The argument for giving EU citizens here the vote is that their rights are going to be fundamentally affected. They were not fundamentally affected in the same way by these other referendums. I think, therefore, that it would be good if she could recognise that there is a total difference in nature between this referendum and the others that have taken place in the European Union.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I always respect the views of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. Indeed, this is the first time that a country is facing the opportunity to vote to leave the European Union, but it is my understanding, from colleagues across Europe, that they certainly viewed the referendums held there as being of great seriousness for the future of their countries.
I have been asked specific questions. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer, asked how many British citizens live abroad. There are a number of different estimates, but in 2013 the United Nations estimated that there were 5.2 million British-born migrants abroad, of whom 1.3 million were in other EU member states. There are, however, no figures distinguishing how many have been away for longer than 15 years. I know from visiting our embassies overseas that when British citizens travel or settle, they do not usually let the embassy know—so we do not have the opportunity to gather that information.
Noble Lords asked about removing the 15-year rule for overseas voters. We are committed to doing so; it was in our manifesto; and we are keeping the promises in our manifesto. A Bill will be brought forward, but it will be a Bill to consider the matter of franchise and not something to be rushed through in time for any particular piece of legislation in this Session.
I was also asked about an anomaly by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, who commented that Peers overseas can vote if they have been there for more than 15 years and others cannot. What I can say to her is that Peers are in the same position as anybody else. If they are resident overseas and have been for more than 15 years, they are subject to the same 15-year rule, just like any other British citizens resident overseas.
There was very strong debate on public information, with the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, the noble Lords, Lord Hannay, Lord Jay, Lord Tugendhat, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard and Lord Cavendish of Furness, and many others very properly saying that it was important that the public should be able to make their decision based on reliable information. It is difficult to know how individuals determine what they believe to be reliable information, but that is something we will have to consider. I listened very carefully indeed to every noble Lord who made points about the publication of material, whether it was by government, whether it was government to commission work from the OBR, whether it was government to provide some statistics that would be in some way scientific and independent, or whether it was a White Paper. I would like to consider further exactly what that material might look like and what kind of information could be produced that is proper and helpful, and noble Lords have a strong role to play in those discussions.
Clearly, there is a role for the Government in all that. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, proposed that there should be a White Paper on the matter of leaving the European Union. Whatever information is produced by the Government should also say very strongly what the implications are of staying in the European Union, because it is a matter of inviting people to make a decision between remaining and leaving. Therefore, the Government’s duty is to look at both those matters.
The Bill is all about putting the question to the British people. It does not make provision about what happens next. I was asked whether the result would be legally binding. Clearly, at the moment, it is not sensible for us to guess about the best way to implement the result, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said, this would be the first time that a member state had had the opportunity to vote to leave. If we got to the position where the country decided that it wished to leave, we would then get into the newer territory of working through those procedures.
Perhaps I may deal first with whether the result would be legally binding. I was asked by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London whether the Government would respect the result of the referendum. The Prime Minister has made it clear that we will respect the result of the referendum even though it is not legally binding. In March 2010, the Constitution Committee of this House considered referendums in the UK and concluded that, because of the sovereignty of Parliament, they could not be truly legally binding—my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth was on the Constitution Committee, so I know that he will appreciate the details of that.
With regard to the process of leaving, I was asked about the Article 50 process by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, I believe. She nods her assent. The Prime Minister, of course, is focused on success, as I mentioned earlier, so we are not going to speculate on might what might happen if there is a vote to leave the European Union. In general terms, and I have certainly had advice on this before from my noble friend Lord Bowness, Article 50 provides a mechanism for states to withdraw from the EU. Once a member state has notified the European Council of its intention to withdraw, it would have to negotiate its future relationship with the EU. This is agreed by a qualified majority of the member states, with the consent of the European Parliament. Article 50 gives a limit of two years for these negotiations, which can be extended with unanimous agreement before the treaties cease to apply.
While I am dealing with individual questions, I will refer to one from the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, who asked about the implications of the lobbying Act. The Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Act does not prevent companies setting out their views on EU membership. That Act amended the rules for third parties campaigning in elections; it did not amend the rules for campaigning in referendums. The Bill applies Part 7 of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act, which sets out the rules for campaigning at referendums. These rules do not prevent companies making their views known to workforces and customers.
On campaigning itself, the campaign rules were considered in another place. It has been such a long time since PPERA was passed in 2000 that the House of Commons agreed to uprate the spending figures in line with inflation. Fact sheets are available with information on that. Noble Lords rightly concentrated their fire on the whole issue of Section 125 of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act. This concerns restrictions placed on publicly funded bodies and individuals on publishing certain material in relation to the referendum in the final 28 days of the campaign. The restrictions of this section will apply in full following an amendment made on Report in the other place. The power to which noble Lords referred to set out in regulations any exemptions to those rules was also added to the Bill at the same stage. Clause 6, which stands in the Bill before us, was passed without vote in the other place. There was no dissent. It is only proper that any regulations made using this clause will be subject to the affirmative procedure in both Houses.
To my noble friend Lord Lamont and the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, I can say that Section 125 places a restriction on publishing material that deals with,
“any of the issues raised by”,
the referendum question. Publication means to make something available to,
“any section of the public, in whatever form”.
We are now taking stock, as I mentioned earlier, reviewing the implications of living with Section 125 in full and determining whether that is possible or whether we will need to use the power to make regulations.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
I was about to come to my noble friend’s questions.
I now come to the questions posed by my noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lord Ridley. I was asked about the Government’s commitment to four months’ notice of a campaign that would last for 10 weeks. It was suggested that this should be in the Bill. The four months’ notice applies only when regulations are made under Clause 6. There must then be at least four months between the making of these regulations and the referendum date. We believe it would be wrong to set the referendum period now, while the date of the referendum is itself undecided. Paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Bill provides a power for Ministers to set the referendum period in regulations subject to the affirmative procedure. However, the Government have indicated that we do not intend to set a referendum period any shorter than the 10 weeks provided for in the PPERA.
My noble friend Lord Forsyth said that he believed Section 125 does not apply to Scottish Ministers and the Scottish Government. Section 125 applies to,
“any other person or body whose expenses are defrayed wholly or mainly out of public funds or by any local authority”.
So, yes, it does indeed apply to the Scottish Government. The activities of the Scottish Government are funded entirely from the Scottish Consolidated Fund.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I am most grateful to my noble friend for that helpful piece of information. Can she just tell me how long it will take her to take stock? I am trying to be helpful but there is a degree of suspicion that perhaps the Government might be tempted to water down the position on purdah. I really do not understand why the Government cannot take stock and produce regulations while we are considering the Bill, so that the House has an opportunity to discuss it. What exactly is the problem? Is it the shortage of manpower in the Foreign Office? What is the difficulty that prevents the Government saying what these regulations should be?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, if it were an easy matter we would have resolved it by now. It is a matter whereby, to ensure that we properly bring forward regulations—if we do at all—before this House, we take full legal advice and take into account all the ramifications of government business. On the position of Members of another place and ourselves, if we are speaking outside parliamentary privilege and all related matters, this is not a matter to be resolved in a way that this House would find unsatisfactory. We are taking care. The debate today and further debates will feed into those decisions. That is the important matter. Noble Lords have that voice, and I know I will listen to it.
My noble friend Lord Ridley referred to John Penrose giving a commitment to a 16-week referendum period which should be on the face of the Bill. All I would say is that my honourable friend John Penrose made it clear that we do not intend to set a referendum period any shorter than the 10 weeks provided for by PPERA and the 16-week—or four-month—period is already in the Bill. If my noble friend has a moment later to look at Clause 6(6), he will see that the provision is there. I have been rescued—I have been giving away too many copies of my Bill; clearly it is too popular a document. Subsection (6) states:
“Any regulations under subsection (2) must be made not less than four months before the date of the referendum”.
I am very grateful for the care, attention and energy displayed by noble Lords today. It is a privilege to stand here and bring forward this Bill for your Lordships’ attention. What we are doing is so important, as many noble Lords have said. It is a chance in a lifetime to give the British people their say on whether the United Kingdom remains a member of the European Union or leaves it. I look forward to the vigorous debates to come. I believe that today we have set this Bill on the road to giving the British people the chance to make their decision. I commend the Bill to the House.