European Union (Referendum) Bill

Lord Trefgarne Excerpts

Friday 24th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, a spectre haunts the Conservative Party—the spectre of UKIP. The noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, must glow with pride about that. He may have heard—as the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, said—the speech of the Prime Minister at Bloomberg. That was a damascene conversion. I invite Members of your Lordships’ House to listen to or read the speeches made by the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary, extremely eloquently, rejecting an “in or out” referendum prior to that Bloomberg speech. Indeed, the Foreign Secretary used phrases, which I will not quote now, saying what a disaster it would be in trade terms. Of course, that sentiment is echoed now by the CBI, the Japanese Government and a whole series of businesses—many Japanese, German and others—that recognise that there would be considerable uncertainty between now and 2017 if this Bill was passed.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, gave as justification for his stance that to pass this Bill would give an assurance to the British public, but an assurance of what? We have said on many occasions that the constitutional principle is clear: no Parliament can bind its successors. Will there be a clear assurance that there will be a referendum before 2017? We know for example that the Prime Minister has said very clearly that he would not intend to start negotiations with our European partners until after the next general election. Anyone who knows anything about the European Union knows that its wheels grind very slowly and there will be long and tortuous negotiations. Some countries that we believe now to be allies may no longer be—for example, the Czech Republic. Its Government have claimed for some time that they would be an ally in terms of reforming the European Union but it recently had a change of Government. The old, very Eurosceptic Government have changed to one far warmer towards Europe and so unlikely to be an ally. Poland, Bulgaria and Romania are, after the recent utterances of the Prime Minister, hardly likely to be particularly supportive. One could go on.

[Lord Trefgarne (Con)]

I wonder if the noble Lord would refresh his memory with paragraph 4.25 of the Companion, which appears on page 65. It says:

“Debate must be relevant to the Question before the House”.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

I invite the noble Lord to read what I am saying. I am replying to points made by other Members of your Lordships’ House during the debate, so if I am not being relevant, nor were they.

As I am sure everyone recognises, the truth is that this would involve a great constitutional change. As a Welshman, I have considerable experience of referenda. The first referendum I was involved in was on Sunday opening in Wales. I went from London, where I was then working, to Wales and voted against Sunday opening. I have campaigned in many referenda since and have reached the conclusion that the result of a referendum depends, first, on who poses the question and whether the Government are popular at the time. Secondly, it depends on when the question is posed. Thirdly, it depends on the question. I end on this point: in my judgment, the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, made a highly succinct and powerful speech, inviting us not to allow the Tea Party to—we have used a lot of dog analogies—be the tail wagging the dog, but to follow the body set up specifically for this purpose, namely the Electoral Commission.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greaves]

Perhaps I can help the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, and the House. This is getting into such a mess that I think we should adjourn now, but that is a different issue. The amendment that has been carried removes subsection (4). All these other amendments seek to insert text on completely different issues after subsection (4). I do not think that the removal of subsection (4) pre-empts text on completely different issues that is sought to be inserted after that subsection. I hesitate to say this when the Clerk is jumping up and down, but just because the relevant measure refers to line 9, and line 9 has been removed, it clearly now refers to where line 9 would have been previously.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I am afraid that I think the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is wrong. The plain fact is that these amendments are now pre-empted. That is the advice of the Clerks, and that is that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wigley]

I am more than delighted to do so. I think that it will be in Hansard anyway as it is an amendment, but it says:

“A ddylai’r Deyrnas Unedig barhau yn aelod o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd neu adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd?”,

which says exactly the same as the English version.

[Lord Trefgarne]

My Lords, I am ashamed to say that although I have Welsh parents and was born in the Principality, I do not speak Welsh. Can the noble Lord confirm that the words in Welsh on the Marshalled List are the same as the words in English elsewhere in the Bill?

[Lord Wigley]

Yes, the words are the same as the amendment that is linked with this so that the two versions would be the same. I realise that at this stage of the Bill this is no doubt seen as a probing amendment, and it is a matter of how it should be taken on board. I do not think that this is a controversial issue—it certainly would not be in Wales—and I support the initiative with regard to the Gaelic language in Scotland.