Common Organisation of the Markets in Agricultural Products Framework (Miscellaneous Amendments, etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Grantchester Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, for briefing us and arranging meetings letting us know the intention behind the regulations. He has a deserved reputation for civility and courtesy in this House, and he has very much earned it in my case, as I am not a great expert in this field.

I gather that this is an attempt to enact a degree of continuity and certainty for the farming industry in the immediate case. If we are going to go through these radical changes, that is to be applauded. However, can the Minister indicate the limitation of the certainty that can be given? For instance, how far in the future are we thinking: is it merely to the end of this Parliament? According to the newspapers, that could be a month away or about three years; we do not know. What are the limitations? What is the ongoing philosophy, because the philosophy is also important? If the Government continue in power, what will they think of doing? That thinking and control will matter. That is the guiding light for what will go on. Some idea of what is happening there would be helpful.

I have a few other questions. The noble Baroness, Lady Byford, touched on a few of the things I was going to say, and one or two of the others seem to disappear into the middle distance given the lateness of the night and the importance of what is going on. If there is to be no great change, that is fine, but if change is unavoidable I encourage him to describe where he thinks there will be the greatest change, because the people involved will need as much warning as possible. If the Government have identified those areas, that would be helpful to know.

The regulations are not welcome but seem unavoidable in the current situation, so I thank the Government for at least getting a hard hat ready for the fall.

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his excellent introduction to the batch of regulations before the House and declare my interest, as in the register, as a recipient of EU funds. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, and the noble Lord, Lord Addington, for their contributions tonight.

The regulations complete the framework of agricultural mechanisms needed to be transferred to the UK from the EU to maintain certainty and continuity on food. The House dealt with further tidying-up amendments yesterday to update the position from the alterations agreed at the EU level in January. The Minister, his team and his department can be congratulated on their achievements, perhaps with certain exceptions in other areas. Nevertheless, they have brought across many technical and policy areas of EU law into UK law through these instruments to maintain the necessary legal frameworks.

The Minister made other remarks signifying that further technical updates could continue. Can he go further and state whether all future developments in the EU will continue to be implemented in UK law until measures under the Agriculture Bill come into force, which would allow certainty of continuation until the end of this Parliament, and whether those developments will maintain full parity with what is happening in the EU?

As we discussed last week, these regulations need to be introduced to maintain continuity and consistency on the EU’s regime to bring about a smooth transfer to the UK’s new regime, proposed under the forthcoming Agriculture Bill. I am sure that, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, the Minister can confirm that nothing will change from a regulatory standpoint in the entire food chain, from the farmer to the consumer, to the benefit of both and the food supply chain. I am certainly grateful to the Government for that clarity. To credit the Treasury for its guarantee, the food industry has a certain amount of certainty until the end of this Parliament—that is still believed to be in 2022, whether the UK has a transition period or not—when the new provisions under the Agriculture Bill are expected to take effect. Until that landscape, producers and consumers are protected. There are no guarantees after that.

As Parliament nears the end of the process to leave the EU with a fully functioning statute book, what consideration have the Government given to communicating these solutions, especially regarding the farming industry? I understand that the Minister’s department has already gone live with the online system for this year’s BPS, and that the guidance notes are not materially different; that is, they are essentially the same as last year’s. Do the Government have any plans? More pertinently, when does the Minister think his department will issue guidance to provide clarity for the industry?

We have dealt with rural development programmes and the common agricultural policy in recent weeks, but these regulations deal with CMOs, the common organisations for market structures, market measures, legislative functions and livestock regulation, as the Minister explained. Again, the Explanatory Memorandums do not provide enough clarity, or reveal with details enough of the consultations that have occurred throughout industry, including on the devolved Administrations and their separate industry structures. Can he outline the full scope of those consultations by naming the various food sector bodies that have been consulted on these CMO instruments? I recognise that, necessarily, the CMA will be involved as far as competition law is concerned, but how will specific industry issues be dealt with on a sector-by-sector basis?

For example, in yesterday’s debate, PDOs and geographical indictors were discussed in relation to the transfer of functions to the Secretary of State, but no mention was made of the UK policy and decision-making process, nor of what guidance there may be on future recognitions. Can the Minister outline the plans for that once the UK has transferred the various brands across from the EU list, including the ones discussed yesterday dealing with wine and US liquor?

My next general comment concerns the lack of impact assessments across the regulations. As these regulations merely bring existing schemes into being on a UK statutory basis, the Government say that nothing has changed, as the saying goes. I understand that, but there are often sufficient amendments to justify examination and explanation. I ask the Minister to clarify two situations. First, what is the position across the statutory instruments we have been discussing in the past few weeks on the various end-dates of differing programmes, new applications and their funding? I have discussed that with him and his team.

Although these regulations come under Pillar 1, the Minister will nevertheless recall the provisions on the interaction of farmers between Pillar 1 and Pillar 2 regarding these schemes. The RDP measures will continue for new applications until the end of the scheme in 2020, in contrast to the annual reopenings of environmental and countryside stewardship schemes, with all their lifespans running for many years into the future. Can he clarify the provisions and assure us that the overall framework will apply uniformly across the various regimes, whereby all new applications will close on the same date in 2020? If there are to be any changes, I contend that they would merit appraisal under the impact assessment, as they would breach the Treasury’s guarantee to continue its funding until the end of this Parliament.

The second area that may merit an impact assessment regards the policy changes to end the multi-programmes that operate across more than one member state, as the UK will no longer be a member state after exit. These multi-programmes are often important in recognising cross-border collaboration and value-adding marketing schemes. Although the schemes may end, will the Treasury continue its funding in all, only certain or no circumstances? What is its position regarding pertinent databanks and information under these programmes? I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify that. Will agreement with the EU be necessary to continue with, or possibly untangle, the provisions satisfactorily? An impact assessment on the effects of this change would have been helpful.

Regarding the complex nature of interactions with the devolved Administrations, can the Minister confirm that how these operate at present will be entirely consistent and continue with these regulations as well? In particular, can he clarify on which areas all four nations need to agree?

Paragraph 4.5 of the Explanatory Memorandum on legislative functions asks about the interaction of these SI arrangements with ongoing trade negotiations, provisions under the Trade Bill and the publication of the temporary tariffs announced recently. It needs to be recognised that these SIs, as was discussed in yesterday’s updates, transfer only EU functions and its latest position to the UK. I recognise that the Minister’s department was not the lead department in settling these possible temporary tariff quotas and levels, which could have a fundamental impact on industry, but I hope that he will be able to discuss the implications in due course. The role of Parliament and full industry consultation is paramount in determining tariff levels. Can he outline how such consultation will be undertaken in future?

Finally, it needs to be recognised that although the EU powers under certain provisions are being transferred into UK law, they are not necessarily being implemented —indeed, they may never be implemented. I refer in this regard to the questions asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, on the powers to charge fees in relation to the livestock regulations. I know that the industry is grateful that fees are not currently enforced. Can the Minister confirm that this position will continue and that the Government will not commence with this provision, so that the status quo will continue?

I am grateful to the Minister and all his staff at the department for the constructive way they have engaged in discussions with all Benches in your Lordships’ House. In the new world of life outside the EU, it must be recognised that all trading blocs give support to their food and agricultural sectors, and that careful consideration therefore needs to be exercised regarding this fundamental and strategically important industry. I am pleased to approve the regulations today.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. Like the noble Lord, Lord Addington, I have the disadvantage of being before my noble friend Lady Byford and the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, who farm in a much more extensive manner than I do. I reiterate my commitment to the farming world as a farmer.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Addington, and the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for acknowledging government support. I think I have been clear in previous debates—we have had a number of debates on this—about the government commitment to maintain the same level of support until the end of this Parliament, expected in 2022. This is certainly unique. In the European Union, for instance, no other member state’s farming sector has had that level of guarantee. This commitment includes all funding provided for farm support under both pillar 1 and pillar 2 of the current CAP. The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, may recall from the debate that the point about the RDPE funding is that any agreements under pillar 2 that have already started will continue to be funded by the Treasury under that guarantee, even if they go beyond 2020.

The noble Lord, Lord Addington, asked about change. I entirely agree with the noble Lord, because at a time of change there is always much concern. Sometimes it is not quite as bad as we all imagine. I emphasise that there are no immediate changes for farmers and consumers due to the statutory instruments before us. Indeed, these instruments maintain the status quo, with amendments made to ensure that the existing regulatory regime continues to work properly and to provide a consistent regulatory framework.

I raise two areas where changes have been made. In both cases we have worked to ensure that the impact on farmers, businesses and consumers is minimised. The first is in the labelling of farmed goods, where minor changes are necessary to some labels as UK goods will no longer be able to be identified as EU goods. To allow producers and traders time to adapt and to use up their existing labelling stock and reduce waste, we have pragmatically introduced transition periods for these labelling changes until the end of 2020. Another pragmatic point I mentioned earlier was in the tagging of live bovine animals. Here EU legislation requires the retagging of all live bovine animals imported from third countries. We have exempted animals from the EU from this definition so as not to introduce a new requirement of retagging EU animals when we leave. As I said before, this is because the tags are fully compliant with our IT systems, and we thought that that would prevent unnecessary additional costs. These statutory instruments are absolutely designed to ensure continuity and stability for farmers by maintaining the current CMO and livestock frameworks. I think the noble Lord, Lord Addington, meant the complete range of regulations. On livestock movement, again I assure the noble Lord that there will be no changes on the ground. I reiterate that this livestock movements SI does not introduce new rules or new policies. The rules that livestock keepers and businesses must comply with will be unchanged by this SI.

My noble friend Lady Byford asked a number of questions. If I get all the answers, I will of course report on them. If I do not, it would be much better if I wrote in some detail. My noble friend asked about livestock fee charging and what this entails. There is a power in the retained regulation on cattle ID registration, regulation 1760/2000, to charge for controls in this area. It is not Her Majesty’s Government’s policy to charge for these controls and we have no plans to do so.

My noble friend Lady Byford asked about agricultural promotions and the specific questions raised by the SLSC about funding for agricultural promotions laid out in the Common Organisation of the Markets in Agricultural Products Framework (Miscellaneous Amendments, etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. The department provided a response and we confirmed to the committee that there is no funding from the Government for the continuation of these multi-programmes after exit until their completion in 2020 and that stakeholders have been informed.

On the question of livestock, the ESIC and SLSC’s sifting committees made similar points suggesting that the changes made by the SI conferred significant new powers on Ministers and provided for charging for cattle ID. As I say, they disagreed with the department’s original Explanatory Memorandum, which described the changes being made by this instrument as minor and technical. They took the view that 20 or so amendments being made by it had the effect of conferring functions on a Minister in their domestic ministerial capacity that EU regulations confer on the UK as a member state. As I said, we have no intention of charging.

My noble friend asked about price reporting. We have made operable the provisions to set up a system for price reporting in the sugar sector. If I have any further information on that, I shall write to my noble friend and provide a copy to all noble Lords who have spoken.

My noble friend asked a question on public intervention and crisis measures. We are retaining these measures, as it is not appropriate to revoke them under the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. However, the economic case for market intervention is weak. In a global trading environment it can achieve its aim of increasing prices only in very specific circumstances. Where it does, there is a cost not only to the taxpayer but to consumers. The Government—I think this is the case across parties—have not historically supported the general use of public intervention and private storage aid in the EU, and the medium-term intention would be to phase out this policy.

My noble friend Lady Byford asked about a safety net and what assistance would be available if there were a crisis. We have already carried out significant no-deal preparations and have contingency plans in place to minimise disruption as much as possible. As part of this, we are in close contact with the devolved Administrations, all farming sectors and farming unions, including the livestock sector, and are looking at a range of possible options if we were to leave without a trade deal.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, raised a number of matters on consultation and assessment. As I think the noble Lord is expecting me to say, there are no changes in policy except in the really limited areas I have described, which are all pragmatic. Where there are changes, they are largely minor and reflect the domestic context. I can say that Defra carried out targeted stakeholder engagement on these policy changes and, as I say, consulted extensively with the devolved Administrations. Where there is a possible impact on businesses, such as with labelling changes, a transition period will be implemented.

I want to take noble Lords back and embellish what I said about multi-programmes. The term refers to programmes that involve multiple member states. I think we all have to accept that there is no reasonable way in which we could make these schemes work domestically, given that they engage a number of other member states. I do not think that the UK’s share of the work and funding is variable. For simple programmes that require the participation of only one member state, as I have said, we have given a Treasury guarantee that they will be fulfilled. However, it would not be possible to operate programmes with multiple member states and so we will not be continuing with those.

[Lord Grantchester]

Can the Minister provide clarity on these multi-programmes? There are obviously implications for UK businesses that partake in those, and I understand the Minister’s remarks on that. However, will he clarify that none of these schemes has implications for government commitments and obligations to fulfil EU schemes as part of the £39 billion transfer of funds? Do they all fall outwith those obligations?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

It is only reasonable that I answer the noble Lord precisely in writing to provide clarity. I would not want to assume the configuration of the £39 billion and whether schemes in this area may be implicated.

On consultation, the approach we have taken to engagement has been proportionate and fair, particularly given that the changes made by the statutory instruments are technical and operable in so many cases. We have worked closely with the farming world.

The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked about the legislative functions SI. These provisions allow the Secretary of State to require export licences for the export of farmed goods. They are necessary to allow the UK to manage any new third-country export quotas that the UK may need to manage. Examples of current export quotas that the EU manages, and that the UK will therefore need to manage, include export quotas for cheese to Canada and the United States and for skimmed milk powder to the Dominican Republic. As I am sure the noble Lord knows, the administration of import tariff quotas will be subject to separate regulations made under the Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act.

As I have said, Defra has consulted extensively with the devolved Administrations on all aspects of the SIs, and consent was sought and given for those that relate to devolved matters. In so far as the regulations make amendments to food law, we consulted in accordance with our legal obligations through representative bodies such as Dairy UK, the NFU and local councils. We received replies from numerous public bodies and organisations in England, and in all four constituent nations, expressing support for our proposed operability changes.

Where industry bodies requested longer transition periods for labelling, we took that into consideration and increased the length of transition to the end of December 2020.

On the livestock SI, my noble friend Lady Byford, and the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, with his long-term dairy interest, will be pleased to hear that stakeholders—and I have been part of this—have played a leading role in helping Defra develop the principles and approaches that will underpin the delivery of its planned new livestock tracing services over the next few years, through its traceability design user group. Again, this is really important, and there is enormous buy-in from industry.

Common Agricultural Policy and Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Grantchester Excerpts

Wednesday 20th March 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

Perhaps the noble Earl might speak to the Minister afterwards.

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for his introduction to the bundle of regulations before the Committee today. I declare my interests as listed in the register and that I receive EU funds under the CAP schemes that we are discussing here.

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

I am sorry to intervene, but the noble Earl was sitting over there at the beginning of the debate.

[The Earl of Erroll]

Not quite; I missed the first couple of minutes.

[Lord Grantchester]

I may well bring up the points that the noble Earl intended to make, so I will hope to cover some of his anxieties. To continue, I am grateful to the Minister and his team for the very constructive way in which his department has engaged with Peers on these regulations.

By and large, the Explanatory Memorandums have commonality across the regulations, as the bundle today transfers the functions necessary to transfer the complexities of the CAP schemes, including the basic payment scheme, to the UK on the UK’s exit from the EU. Last week, the Committee examined and approved the statutory instruments pertinent to rural development that are also managed under the subject of this week’s regulations.

I certainly approve of the instruments, but it would be useful to have the Minister’s clarification and confirmation of several aspects of their provisions and some amendments give rise to the need for further explanation. I am very clear about the CAP schemes. I apologise if some of my queries go beyond the technicalities of the regulations, but to a large extent they expand on the queries already raised by other noble Lords.

The regulations have been introduced to maintain continuity and consistency and bring about a smooth transition to the UK’s new regime proposed in the forthcoming Agriculture Bill. Can the Minister confirm that the instruments will become operable in the event of no deal, whenever that might be, and, under the scenario that the UK leaves with any deal at the end of the transition period up to the end of the present Parliament, which is still expected to be in 2022, when the Agriculture Bill may be implemented?

In so far as there might be an extension of the date under Article 50, will this result in a commensurate end date for the transition period under the outcome with a deal? Would that then necessarily shorten the time when these regulations would operate before the new Agriculture Bill provisions became operable at the end of the Parliament? I assume that, because of these complexities, no end date can be written into these regulations. As further payments for the EU will continue under the extension of Article 50, will this be relevant to the £39 billion due from the UK to the EU on exit?

Turning to what the regulations mean for present practice, can the Minister confirm certain features? First, and very importantly—this might be the point that the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, wished to bring up—is the Rural Payments Agency capable of administering the added totality of these schemes, bearing in mind two aspects? First, it manages the schemes already from a UK perspective so, prima facie, it should. However, secondly, whenever there have been any fresh iterations of CAP regimes, the RPA has traditionally struggled to cope, with resulting delays and confusions. It is struggling now to incorporate the environmental schemes transferred to it last year. What can the Minister say to reduce anxiety over the management of these changes?

Rural Development (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Grantchester Excerpts

Wednesday 13th March 2019 Grand Committee

Lastly, I was surprised to read in the Explanatory Memorandum about a broader issue: the European Investment Bank. The European Investment Bank, which usually does not get out of bed for anything under about £5 billion—or €5 billion—says that EIB money will no longer be available once we leave the European Union. I find it interesting that that is in the EM. The EM continues that this will be replaced by “domestic finance mechanisms”. I have heard nothing from the Government about what will replace the billions of pounds—or euros—invested in environmental areas by the European Investment Bank. It seems that the Government now have some clue about that, and I should be very interested to hear from the Minister what that is.

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his explanation of the instruments before the Committee today and declare my interests as stated in the register as being in receipt of EU funds. As the Minister said, these statutory instruments are amendments to retained EU laws to allow the rural development programmes and others supported by a combination of UK and EU funding to continue to operate after EU exit for the remainder of the 2014-2020 programming period.

The Government have guaranteed that projects will be funded for their full lifetime, and have gone further by pledging to commit the same cash total in all funds for farm support, including the common agricultural policy, until the end of this Parliament, expected in 2022. All the SIs were originally negative instruments that the sifting committees of either or both Houses of Parliament have recommended be debated by Parliament.

Sub-Committee B of your Lordships’ Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, in its ninth report, expressed disappointment at the uninformative nature of the Explanatory Memoranda that provided no explanation of the instruments’ discrete functions. On my analysis, the first two memoranda on rural development are the same, verbatim, except for the title. In its 18th report, the committee also commented that the provision of more financial information would have been useful to inform debate.

The second two instruments on EU structural funds are similar but more informative, providing some detail on the value of EU funds to be replaced. While it is recognised and appreciated that the Government have accepted the committee’s recommendations, why has so little information being provided in the Explanatory Memoranda?

Other than funding originating from the UK Government and several Commission roles being domesticated, will any significant changes result from the enactment of these SIs in a no-deal scenario? Although they appear largely technical, it is difficult to appreciate the amendments from the legal text.

I have some questions to clarify exactly what is happening here. First, these instruments transfer obligations or discretions from member states to relevant authorities, and these will be pertinent to each devolved Administration. I am sure the Minister will confirm that each devolved Administration—probably excepting Northern Ireland—has discussed and support the orders, and that each devolved Administration has consulted with the programme monitoring committee, which is composed of stakeholder representatives, including non- government organisations. Under the rural development regulations, no further details are disclosed. Under the structural investment fund regulations, there is further information that Defra has met the Rural Payment Agency’s industry partnership group, and these stake- holders are named.

Can the Minister clarify the extent of the consultation and the full extent of the consultees at devolved level? Have the commencement stakeholders named in the IPG UK list been consulted at devolved level—the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Ireland representatives of farmers, consultants and agents? Although consultation may have been impossible with the Northern Ireland Office, it would be useful to know that stakeholders had been consulted in that region.

Under regulations pertinent to the European maritime and fisheries fund, the EMFF, no details regarding stakeholders are given, other than that there was “targeted engagement”. Can the Minister clarify what “targeted engagement” amounts to and specify exactly which stakeholders were involved? These details would be most informative as noble Lords prepare for the Fisheries Bill, which is promised soon.

Secondly, at paragraph 2.6 it is explained that some regulations are being addressed separately by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. The split between departments leads to confusion. Can the Minister clarify whether the European structural and investment funds under paragraph 2.8 come under his department or BEIS?

Further, an explanation regarding the European Investment Bank, which the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, mentioned, and its relevance to these instruments would be helpful, as it is stated at paragraph 12.1 that the UK’s involvement in the EIB will cease on EU exit. The paragraph goes on to say that,

“domestic finance mechanisms would still be accessible”.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, I would be most grateful to understand what this refers to. What are these mechanisms, how will they operate in regard to these instruments, and who might those finance providers be?

Paragraph 7.5 of the Explanatory Memorandum for the structural funds instruments mentions that projects under both the European agricultural fund for rural development, the EAFRD, and the previously mentioned European maritime and fisheries fund,

“whose funding has been agreed before the end of 2020 will be funded for their full lifetime”.

How long will that be? I am a little confused that projects post leaving the EU, especially under a no-deal scenario, that have not yet been endorsed at EU level until 2020 will still be guaranteed by the Government—let us stick to the convenience for now that we will be leaving in March 2019. Can the Minister clarify the apparent contradiction? The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, also raised queries in this regard: whose budget will be responsible and in which circumstances?

I am grateful to the Minister for the consultations he has undertaken with all Benches on these SIs. They have been most helpful, as have his written replies to our previous questions on other SIs. I apologise that it was not possible for me to meet him this week, and that consequently I was not able to give him notice of my inquiries today. How does his department intend to manage agricultural and rural development support through these exit regulations, and no doubt CAP regulations to come next week, with full funding to 2022 and subsequently to the provisions of the Agriculture and Fisheries Bills? These support measures are indeed vital across the rural economy.

His department has included features of this landscape at paragraph 7.5 of the Explanatory Memorandum to the rural development regulations. This explains that the new RDP will cease, while,

“the same cash total in funds for farm support”,

including the common agricultural policy, no doubt, will continue,

“until the end of this Parliament”,

which is still expected to be 2022—even though the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, is quite entitled to reflect otherwise. The CAP is at a total funding of £3 billion per annum, and paragraph 7.7 is not entirely clear what the total or annual value of the funding of the EU commitment to scheme holders will be and for what duration. I would be most grateful if the noble Lord could give any further explanation beyond those given in his introduction. That only three lines on this are included in the financial implications is much to be regretted.

I am sure the Minister will also be aware of modulation, whereby deductions from payments under Pillar 1 are made and subsequently transferred to Pillar 2—rural development—and that these sums must be matched by the Government. Will the full administration of all these features still operate under the CAP towards rural development and be guaranteed by the Government? It looks as though there may be a gap before rural development is reinvigorated through the Agriculture Bill. Once again, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, has drawn attention to the fact that there could well be nothing for fisheries.

I may be asking for far more than the Minister can possibly undertake under the regulations today, especially if he was to answer the pertinent questions from the noble Baronesses, Lady Byford and Lady McIntosh. However, I am sure that his full explanation will be greatly welcomed across the industry. With that, I am pleased to approve the instruments before the Grand Committee today.

--- Later in debate ---

As for the devolved Administrations, these instruments have been developed in collaboration with officials in the Scottish and Welsh devolved Administrations and the Department for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs. They have discretion to consult with their stakeholders, as it is a devolved matter.

[Lord Grantchester]

I press the Minister to clarify that a little more. Is he therefore saying that it was the devolved Administrations’ responsibility to consult with their stakeholders rather than that of Defra, with its wider powers of consultation?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Defra has very good relations and dialogue with a number of rural and fisheries organisations across the devolved Administrations. It is right to say that there is sensitivity, if the responsibility is a devolved Administration’s, in that to appear to be overhauling that would not reflect well. It is a matter for the devolved Administrations, but clearly we wish to work collegiately.

[Lord Grantchester]

I ask the question only in terms of how it relates to how it is reported to us in explanatory memorandums, so we know that there has been full consultation in all the regions as well as on a UK-wide basis.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

If I have any specific details, I will let the noble Lord know precisely. It may be helpful if I can glean some information on devolved consultations with stakeholders. I would say that when we have been engaged with key stakeholders, on fisheries, stakeholders we have been engaged with were supportive of the work being undertaken. On rural development, no concerns were raised by stakeholders, who expressed their appreciation of the work being undertaken.

I shall read Hansard, because my noble friend Lady Byford asked a number of points about youth and retirement projects, issues to do with contractors and other matters. All I would say is that the order is designed to continue with the arrangements that we have, but with the payment after we leave by our guarantee that we will fulfil the funding of any schemes that are applicable at the moment. Obviously, as my noble friend knows, this is not about future schemes, on which we will have all sorts of discussions. Whatever is appropriate now under these funds, people can apply for until the programme ends, and so forth. If there is anything further that I think would be helpful, I will inform your Lordships, but I recommend the instruments and I beg to move.

Equine (Records, Identification and Movement) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Grantchester Excerpts

Wednesday 20th February 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister and his officials for the helpful way in which they have outlined the impact of this statutory instrument and answered questions from those of us who brought them to their attention. I am particularly glad that we can reassure the general public. I feel that very few of them will read the statutory instrument, but it makes it clear that the status quo will be maintained with regard to equine passports. We do not want horse owners thinking that there will be changes in when they need to get their horses identified or in the status for selling feral ponies because although the SI removes those requirements, they are found elsewhere in domestic legislation. If you read the SI, you would not know that, but it was very reassuring to hear from the Minister that the status quo is maintained with regard to equine passports.

I add my voice to the voices of those who raised the issue of horsemeat entering the food chain. I understand from officials that the regulations with regard to the waiting time before that meat can enter the food chain are carried over in their entirety. Going on from what the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, said, it is not just horses going abroad. Horses are slaughtered in the UK. We have four registered slaughterhouses in the UK. I was amazed to find out that 2,800 animals a year are slaughtered in the UK for the food chain.

I do not oppose this statutory instrument but it highlights a number of concerns about what will happen to the trade in and moving of horses if there is no deal. As the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, said, this mainly concerns racing, competition and breeding, but individual horse owners take their horses to the continent, including younger people who might go to train to be great jockeys in the future, which would be fantastic. It is estimated that 42,000 such journeys are made every year, so if there is no deal, the impact will be great.

I have one question for the Minister. As the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, has noted, the Government’s technical note makes clear that the UK will need to be listed as a third country by 29 March. If we are not listed, we cannot move horses to Europe. Can the Minister confirm whether I am correct that if we are not listed by the EU as a third-party country, no horses will be able to move? That would have an incredibly big impact. The noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, said that the impact assessment, such as it is, refers only to the impact of this tiny SI, which is less than £5 million, but if there is no deal and horses cannot move, that will have a massive impact on the industry and on individual horse owners. Have the Government made any estimation of the cost of that devastating outcome?

The second area I want to touch on is that if there is no deal but we are listed, there will be a need for the new ID document, as the Minister rightly identified. As he said, this should be for non-industry equines only. However, having listened to the debate in the Commons, it seems that there is the possibility that the Commission may not recognise our stud books; that is my understanding of the Commons debate. I would be interested to know whether there is a possibility of the Commission not recognising our stud books. In that case, all equines, including industry equines, would be required to have ID documentation. I know that the Minister has made it clear that the documentation, both the export certificate and the ID documentation, would be available at a minimal cost, but they will require extra blood tests which cost hundreds of pounds. As the noble Lord, Lord Trees, mentioned in the debate on an earlier SI, this will require vets. However, if we do not get a deal, we will not have the 50% of our vets who come from other parts of Europe. We could be under real pressure in terms of the number of vets we have. Again, that would put an extra burden on horse owners and it is possible that the industry might have to wait longer to enable the veterinary profession to undertake these extra requirements. All of that comes on top of the extra border inspections which may be required at ports. I believe that most horse owners are very caring and considerate; they do not want to see their horses stuck at borders, which would be the result of no deal.

This SI points to the fact that, at the very minimum, there will be extra costs, extra administrative requirements and undoubtedly extra time for horse owners if we have no deal. If we have no deal and we do not get listed as a third party, there will be no movement at all, which will have a massive impact. This is another statutory instrument which demonstrates the huge loss that this country will bear if we leave the European Union on 29 March.

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

I add my name to other noble Lords who have spoken today and thank the Minister for his explanation of the regulations. I declare my interests as set out in the register, but hasten to add that I have no connections with anything to do with horses. The Minister is correct to make clear that these regulations are being made in the event of a no deal outcome to the UK leaving the EU and it would be redundant should the UK leave with a deal. I thank the Minister once again for facilitating discussions earlier in the week on the SI.

While EU law is supported by UK domestic enforcement legislation after exit day with a deal, as EU legislation will then be retained under the withdrawal Act, the UK must still have an effective, operable statute book should the UK leave the EU without an agreement, as the Minister has explained. Labour recognises that the regulations largely make no changes to the current policy or enforcement, although there are one or two points I shall come to, and therefore does not oppose them. That is not to say that there are no significant concerns about the considerable impact that a no deal outcome will have on the equine industry as well as nearly every other industry. For this reason, the sifting committee of your Lordships’ House has recommended that the regulations be made under the affirmative procedure.

EU law requires equines to be identified by way of a passport. In most cases, equines born after 2009 must also be uniquely identifiable with a microchip. It is recognised and emphasised that this passport will contain important identity information and pertinent details of veterinary medicines administered to the animal and will define the animal’s current food chain status eligibility. The identification regulations have also been recently updated. The UK’s database was launched on 8 March 2018 and contains data about virtually every equine in the UK except those registered and listed as belonging to semi-wild and wild populations. It is to these populations that my attention has been drawn by World Horse Welfare and I thank that organisation for raising these issues. In his opening remarks, the Minister explained that the technicalities under the legislation withdrawing the UK from the EU might explain some of the anomalies the charity has raised. I thank him for that and I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, who underlined this point. Some of the points that I am about to raise might be redundant, although, as World Horse Welfare has specifically asked these questions and I have given the Minister notice of them, perhaps I may outline them so that he can deal with them appropriately.

Farming: Carbon Emissions

Lord Grantchester Excerpts

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, clearly we believe that the production of high-quality food and enhancing the environment are eminently compatible. I absolutely understand what my noble friend has said. It is essential that, in all that we want to do, we work with farmers because they look after 70% of the land and we want them to help us produce food and enhance the environment.

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

My Lords, the whole food supply chain needs a partnership approach with research to relate to practical outcomes, on a similar model to that undertaken by the 10 sustainable farming groups set up by Tesco to build long-term relationships with farmers. What steps are the Government taking to ensure that the UK’s agricultural research is directly connected and translates to on-farm operations, with ambitious climate change measures, enabling farmers and the wider rural economy to benefit?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, research is essential, whether it is agritech or research into tackling endemic disease, which obviously affects livestock. For instance, we want to deal with bovine viral diarrhoea and salmonella in poultry and pigs. All the research will help us to reduce emissions, whether it is through low-emission fertilisers or whatever. In all that, we need to collaborate strongly.

Veterinary Surgeons and Animal Welfare (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Lord Grantchester Excerpts

Wednesday 6th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to be able to participate in this debate. I agree with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Trees, that we all wish our veterinary surgeons to be of the highest standard and it is incumbent on us in this House to ensure that the public have the highest confidence in them. However, I disagree most strongly with his position that Brexit will be good for animal welfare and the veterinary profession.

We need to reflect on the very real challenge posed by Brexit about how we will get the number of vets that we will need in future. I will come on to the specific issue of no deal, where there are particular issues about how we will get the number of vets, but I echo the comments from the noble Lord, Lord Trees, that it would be wonderful if the Government could confirm tonight that vets will be added to the shortage occupation list. This would allay some of those concerns. Given that 50% of normal vets and 95% of vets in slaughterhouses come from Europe at the moment, how we ensure that we get qualified vets in the UK in future is absolutely critical. Although the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Trees, mentioned that, at the moment, only 13% of applicants come from colleges and veterinary schools around Europe which are not accredited, that is still a significant number and these regulations will create more barriers and fees. On top of that, if the Government keep to their stated immigration limits, there is a real risk that we will not have enough vets post Brexit.

That is particularly the case if we have a no-deal scenario. It was sobering to read the comments of the former Chief Veterinary Officer, Nigel Gibbens, who said that if we have a no-deal scenario, we will need an increase of 325% in veterinary certifications, to deal with the certification of animals and animal products at our ports. That is a major issue, which is relevant to this statutory instrument, as confirmed by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. It asked the department how we will ensure we can get more vets should we face a no-deal scenario, with that requirement for 325% more veterinary certifications. The answer the committee received was about this new para-professional job, called a “certification support officer”. This was news to me, and I have to say that, having read the information from the department, I am not really that much clearer about what these officers will do to address the huge shortfall in access to veterinary services if we leave the European Union without a deal. Defra has told the committee that it will not undertake veterinary duties, which begs the question: if these jobs are currently undertaken by vets, what administrative tasks will the new post of certification support officer be undertaking?

Is the Minister confident that these new postholders will be able to do the job? I for one am not clear what it is, but they will have to understand veterinary legislation and all the requirements for giving those certifications. Yet all they will receive is six hours of online training with an exam at the end. I understand that when the RCVS first discussed this with the department and with other departments, they were talking about post-training induction and a probationary period which would be under the direct supervision of a qualified vet. Having read some information online about the certification support officer, I can no longer find any indication of post-training induction or any probation under supervision. These certification support officers will be getting just six hours of online training, yet they will effectively be on the front line at a very important point, as the noble Lord, Lord Trees, says, where we have to assure the public that they can have confidence in public health and animal welfare.

In the supporting material the department makes it clear that it has made no estimation of how many certification support officers might be needed. Yet we know from the former Chief Veterinary Officer that there is an expected 325% increase in the need for veterinary certificates. So why has the department not done any estimation of how many new postholders we will need? Why is there not an impact assessment for this statutory instrument? That seems quite a necessary piece of information for Members of this House to have.

How many of these certification support officers do we now have in place? If we do leave in March, we are going to need these certification support officers, because we do not have enough vets to assure the public that their health, the health of people on the continent and the health of our animals are safe. That is an important point.

The noble Lord, Lord Trees, was right to raise the point about ensuring that our vets have the highest standards. I have been really proud that our country has in recent years been able to send our vets out to parts of Europe which have needed our expertise and our training to ensure that animals’ lives are bettered. We are talking here tonight about how we are going to register vets from other European countries in the UK. What is unclear is how the Government are going to get EU countries to register UK vets. Our vets do wonderful animal welfare work. I remember when I was at the RSPCA—many years ago now—we regularly sent vets out to countries outside Europe but also to places such as Greece, to deal with some of their equine and canine problems. If we cannot get our vets registered, how are our UK animal welfare organisations going to be able to send out our vets to carry on their work supporting animal welfare charities in Europe? It is possible that we will have to set up 27 bilateral agreements with all the other member states, and some of those countries may not be willing to have our vets going over there.

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for setting out the purpose of these SIs so clearly and for meeting me and others before today to discuss the technical changes being made. I thank the RCVS and the BVA for the briefings they have sent. I declare my interest as a dairy farmer, and endorse the Minister’s words of appreciation of vets and the work they undertake.

I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Trees, for his professional viewpoint and endorsement of these SIs. As the Minister is aware, Labour does not oppose these SIs, which are required to ensure that the UK has an operational system for regulating veterinary qualifications from EEA veterinary schools and to enable inspectors to enforce certain animal welfare standards following the UK’s exit from the EU.

Additionally, the UK must enable the system for recognising farrier qualifications from the EEA, enforcing animal health regulations and approving courses for certain equine and veterinary procedures to remain operationally effective. Nevertheless, I have several concerns about the implications of these SIs—particularly the veterinary surgeons regulations—for business, animal health and welfare, and the public. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, was correct to raise concerns in her remarks.

Your Lordships’ House will appreciate the central role vets play in ensuring that standards are upheld in animal health and welfare, food safety and public health. The prospect of Brexit has raised concerns that there will not be the veterinary capacity to carry out these fundamental roles. In a no-deal scenario, the UK will require more work from vets to meet the increased demands for the certifications needed for export of animals and animal products, and for pet travel. The House of Commons Public Accounts Committee warned of the risk of UK exports of animals and animal products being delayed at the borders because of a shortage of vets, and was concerned that the department was,

“cavalier about enough suitably qualified staff to take on this work being available”.

An increasing shortage of vets was becoming apparent before the referendum in 2016. It is all the more worrying that, according to figures from the Major Employers Group, the veterinary profession is already reporting shortages in the UK of 11.5%. This is why we should be concerned that the changes in the SI may exacerbate an already challenging situation.

The Minister will be aware that EEA veterinary surgeons make up half of all new veterinary surgeons who register with the RCVS every year. EU nationals are critical to the UK, particularly in abattoirs, where 95% of vets are from the EU, responsible for upholding animal health, animal welfare, public health and trade. Worryingly, recent figures from the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons show that 32% of non-UK EU veterinary surgeons are considering a move back home and 18% are actively looking for work outside the UK, indicating that Brexit will exacerbate these shortages.

Does the Minister share my concern that a no-deal Brexit will exacerbate current shortages in the veterinary profession and create significant risks for trade, animal health and welfare, and food safety? What help are the Government providing to vets? What communication is being undertaken with them so that in six weeks’ time, in the event of a no-deal scenario, they are ready for an increased demand for export health certificates for animals and animal products?

The Explanatory Memoranda for both SIs say that,

“it is no longer considered appropriate to provide more favourable treatment”,

to EEA vets and farriers once reciprocal arrangements end. Can the Minister explain why these memoranda do not comment on whether, as with other EU exit regulations, there has been a policy change? Why has no consultation been undertaken with vets and businesses but only with the devolved Administrations? Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, drew attention to the lack of an impact assessment.

The RCVS has advised that the SI will enable it to automatically register veterinarians in its veterinary schools if the school is approved or accredited by the European Association of Establishments for Veterinary Education—EAEVE. However, the RCVS will not register graduates from certain other EU veterinary schools where the RCVS does not have sufficient assurance of educational standards. In the case of farriers, I believe it is the Farriers Registration Council that has the equivalent role.

Ivory Bill

Lord Grantchester Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 24th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, as a member of the Constitution Committee I subscribed to the amendments which were moved by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, in Committee and I was delighted to be able support the concerns that he articulated so well about these provisions, which the Government have addressed very fairly. They have gone a considerable way to meeting the concerns that were expressed in the Constitution Committee’s report.

I know from conversations that I have had with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, that he has been very appreciative of the time and consideration that the Minister has given to these issues. We have here a set of amendments which very much address these concerns, in terms of the restriction of the powers of accredited civilian officers, the role of OPSS and the designation that will be forthcoming under the 2006 legislation. It is a very good model of how this House works where a Committee produces a report and the Government listen and engage and come forward with some substantive changes which acknowledge the concerns that were originally raised. I am happy to support the amendments.

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise briefly in appreciation of these amendments, which are designed to address concerns about civilian use of policing powers. I, too, thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, for his interventions in Committee. I am grateful to the Minister for his willingness to carefully consider these issues and bring forward these amendments tonight. I also place on record our gratitude to your Lordships’ Constitution Committee for its scrutiny of the Bill and the recommendations that prompted the Government to rethink its approach to civilian enforcement bodies. These amendments deal with the concerns over policing functions, including the power of entry, search and seizure being exercised by civilian officials, and bring a more reassuring approach to their enforcement.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Cormack, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, and the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for their support for these government amendments. I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, that the function of this House is to consider these matters very carefully. We in government were very seized of the points that were made. I absolutely assure your Lordships that we have no intention of overstretching what I think is a better definition of what was the accredited civilian officer responsibilities. We have got there, and I am most grateful. I place on record again not only the Constitution Committee’s work on this but that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, who I am sorry cannot be here tonight, because his contribution to getting us over the line and working together was another very strong example of how we get better legislation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, this new clause tabled in the name of my noble friend the Minister and to which the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, has added his name means that existing insurance arrangements concerning ivory items are, for the most part, not affected by the Bill. It also ensures that owners will be able to continue to insure ivory items by exempting regulated insurance activities from the prohibition in Clause 1. Noble Lords will recall that this matter was raised by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, in Committee and I am extremely grateful to him for bringing this matter to the attention of your Lordships’ House and for his ongoing assistance in this matter. I am sorry only that he has had to travel this evening and will therefore not be able to contribute to this debate.

The proposed new clause contains measures that will provide comfort to owners of items containing ivory and to insurers. It ensures that any insurance policy for, or covering, an item containing ivory that is extant at the time of commencement of this Bill is not affected by the Bill.

Secondly, the proposed new clause also exempts from the prohibition at Clause 1 a transfer of ownership from an insured person to an insurance company where the activity is regulated under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, as the result of the insurer paying out on a claim made against that item. Further, if that item is subsequently recovered and the original owner chooses to exercise their right to buy it back from the insurer in exchange for return of the consideration paid out, this will also be exempted from the definition of dealing in Clause 1.

However, should the original owner choose not to exercise this right, the insurance company will not be permitted to sell the item on to a third party for its pecuniary salvage value unless that item meets one of the categories of exemption and is registered or certified as such. The proposed new clause also covers transactions between insurers and reinsurers, for example when there is a takeover of an insurance business or when policies are transferred between insurers and reinsurers.

While the objective of the Bill is to prohibit the trade in items containing ivory, there is no desire to have an undue impact on the insurance industry or on consumers who own such items and wish to insure them. There will also be a desire for museums to be able to insure items containing ivory alongside other important pieces within their collections. This proposed new clause allows them to do so.

This proposed new clause will not in any way undermine the main objective of the Bill: to prevent trade in items containing ivory. It does, however, ensure a functioning insurance market for those owners of items containing ivory who wish to access it. I beg to move.

[Lord Grantchester]

I rise merely to thank the Minister for clarifying these issues around insurance, which will be helpful to many people. The noble Baroness has our support.

Amendment 79 agreed.

Ivory Bill

Lord Grantchester Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 24th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the Bill and its intentions, but it has failed the test of proportionality in many respects. I would not have supported my noble friend Lord Cormack’s amendment, because I thought it was too wide, but I support Amendment 24, in the name of my noble friend Lord Inglewood, on the need for de minimis registration. To introduce bureaucracy of that sort is quite crazy. Some of us have been fighting for years to prevent intrusion into people’s houses. I am glad to say that that has been reduced with the help of the Law Lords and happens much less now.

However, something like this is absurd. I remind your Lordships that in 1966, when there was a Labour Government and an economic crisis—they went together at that time—they introduced a statutory instrument requiring anybody who owned more than three gold coins to hand them in, but it was tokenism. People did not do it, of course. I remember various questions being asked about how many convictions there had been, and how many coins had been handed in. The answer was none.

Unenforceable law is bad law and we really must not encourage it. Some of the provisions of the Bill are so OTT that we must stand up to them, particularly as they have nothing intrinsically to do with the Bill. I support my noble friend Lord Inglewood’s amendment.

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Quin has spoken eloquently on the effect of the Bill on future generations of Northumbrian pipers. Like her, we cherish musical tradition and would not wish the music played by pipers and enjoyed to cease. I pay tribute to the department for organising a visit by a member of its team to assess the instrument and thank her for meeting the society. However, as has been reported back to the department, some of the pipes have problems under the Bill. It is my hope that the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society itself can take on a role in seeing that instruments are recycled to new pipers through bequests and other measures, and that new instruments avoid the provisions of the Bill. It would be difficult to create a new exemption for Northumbrian pipes. As the House will later see, we have tabled Amendment 78 to report on the effects of the Bill on musical instruments more generally. Evidence provided through the consultation, including from the Musicians’ Union, showed that the vast majority of commonly played and traded instruments, including violins, pianos and bagpipes, comprise less than 20% ivory.

Turning to Amendment 2 and others in this group, we do not support what they wish to achieve, which amounts to a reduction in the provisions and effectiveness of the Bill, which is a commitment of both parties to introduce a ban on the sale of ivory. The Bill includes limited exemptions to the ivory trade that are sufficiently narrow to ensure that they will not contribute to the poaching of elephants. The carefully crafted clauses represent the culmination of a productive collaboration between NGOs, law enforcement, museums, art dealers and musicians. It is Labour’s view that the Bill strikes the right balance. I call on all the proposers of amendments in this group to withdraw or not to move their amendments so that future generations can enjoy living in a world with elephants.

The Illegal Wildlife Trade Conference, held earlier this month in London, underlined the importance of the UK putting in place a near-total ban on UK ivory sales as soon as possible. This legislation builds on the resolution agreed at the 2016 Conference of the Parties to CITES to phase out domestic ivory markets and will give the UK greater credibility in continuing to press other key countries in south-east Asia with a history of ivory trade to commit to closing their markets and to implementing strong domestic ivory bans. China closed its ivory market in 2017. Ivory poaching is now the fourth-largest crime sector after arms, drugs and trafficking. I remind your Lordships’ House that 20,000 elephants are killed each year, or some 55 a day.

I turn to Amendment 24 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, which seeks to remove registration as a precondition of allowed sales of de minimis objects. The noble Lord raised concerns about proportionality and others have followed with remarks on both the registration fee and administration involved, which would necessitate photographing, measuring and examining the object for any distinguishing features before uploading the information to a database. I am sure the noble Lord would accept that photographing, measuring and examining the object for any distinguishing features would be part of any normal process of listing an item for sale at an auction house or on an online marketplace. It is our view that registration is necessary for enforcement. The proposed system places a small administrative responsibility and a small financial cost on the seller, who, in turn, will gain from the exemption to the ban on dealing in ivory. Crucially, by registering an item through the system, the applicant will be confirming that, to the best of their knowledge, all the information provided is correct and the item therefore meets the exemption. The APHA, the regulator and the police will have access to the registration system to enable them to carry out any enforcement and monitoring action necessary. The APHA will also carry out spot checks on items registered to check for accuracy and compliance. This is also a key and necessary part of the regulations.

Amendment 22 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, would remove the size criterion for portrait miniature exemptions. The noble Lord will recall from our previous consideration of this issue that the Government added the category of portrait miniatures to the list of exemptions in Committee in the other place. Emma Rutherford, a representative of Philip Mould & Co, an expert on portrait miniatures, gave evidence on how the exemption for portrait miniatures could be refined to add a size limit, and agreed that the suggestion of six inches by eight inches would be sensible. This is 320 square centimetres, which would allow between 90% and 95% to be exempt. The Government have moved considerably on many of these features and I therefore call on the House to reject these amendments.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, these amendments relate to the scope of the ban and, in particular, some of the exemptions to it. I emphasise how uncomfortable I am in having to address this to a number of my noble friends, but I do so with great sincerity. The department has undertaken extensive consultation with a broad range of stakeholders, including the music sector, the antiques sectors and all the sectors engaged, as well as NGOs interested in conservation, to shape the Bill and, in particular, to establish a narrow and carefully defined set of exemptions.

I was struck by what my noble friend Lord Hailsham said—he used the word “proportionate”. The architecture of this proportionate approach has been carefully designed to balance the need to close our domestic markets with consideration of the interests of those who currently own certain items of ivory and the obligation to protect our cultural heritage. I think that my noble friend Lord De Mauley was in his position at Defra when my party had a manifesto pledge, in 2015, for a total ban. We have considered with the consultation that there are proportionate ways of approaching what is an imperative: to do everything that we can to stop the incidental and direct pressure on the elephants on this planet. That is why I will cut to the chase and say that the Government cannot support the amendments in this group. But I would like this opportunity, as is only reasonable, to set out why in more detail.

Amendment 2, tabled by my noble friend Lord Cormack, serves to alter the definition of ivory in Clause 1 of the Bill. This amendment would mean that any item with less than 20% ivory or any musical instrument with less than 30% ivory would be excluded from the ban, meaning that it would remain legal to deal in such items. Indeed, they would be within the scope of the rest of the Bill. The amendment does not state whether this threshold refers to volume, weight or another measurement. There is no backstop date referred to. This amendment would mean that items of any age with less than 20% ivory or any musical instrument with less than 30% ivory would not be affected by the ban and would only be subject to existing CITES regulations. This amendment would greatly undermine the scope and purpose of the Bill.

My noble friend Lord Cormack’s Amendment 22 refers to the exemption for pre-1918 portrait miniatures. The amendment would remove the size qualification, excluding the frame, from the exemption. We had this discussion in Committee, and my noble friend the Duke of Wellington referred to his own personal and rather considerably sized portrait miniature, which he rightly said he had no intention of dealing or selling. As the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, said, this size qualification was developed from evidence provided during a House of Commons evidence session by a portrait miniatures expert. This evidence suggests that the size qualification, as we have heard, would include in the exemption 90% to 95% of pre-1918 portrait miniatures, which is the majority. Any item that falls outside this size qualification may also be exempt as an item of outstanding artistic, cultural or historical value and importance if it meets the criteria, which will be set out in regulations. The Bill makes clear that a frame would not be included in the calculation of the surface area of a portrait miniature. As I said, we will be developing detailed guidance on how to measure surface area, in consultation with relevant stakeholders.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

My Lords, the UK Government have acted in accordance with the devolution settlements and engaged throughout the process with each of the devolved Administrations on the territorial extent and implementation of the Ivory Bill across the UK. I am pleased to say that the Governments of Scotland and Wales have both clearly expressed their support for the Ivory Bill. We have also worked closely with the Northern Ireland Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs.

The UK Government’s engagement with the devolved Administrations concluded that dealing in ivory items either within a devolved country or between a devolved country and another part of the UK is a devolved matter. For instance, a dealing conducted wholly within Scotland or between Scotland and Wales will be devolved. Dealings between any part of the UK and a third country remains a reserved matter. The UK Government have therefore come to an agreement with the devolved Administrations to ensure that these devolved interests are protected through a number of amendments tabled in the name of the Minister.

The government amendments ensure that most regulations under the Bill that apply in relation to Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland may be made only by, or with the consent of, Welsh Ministers, Scottish Ministers or the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland. If a devolved Administration does not provide consent, it can make its own regulations. The only exceptions are the powers to set fees by regulations and the publication and consultation of enforcement guidance, which remain exercisable by the Secretary of State but will require consultation with Welsh Ministers, Scottish Ministers and the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland. These exceptions are made simply because the power to prescribe fees and the publication of enforcement guidance are technical matters.

We have also agreed to a minor amendment to specify Scottish Ministers as the appropriate body to publish a list of accredited museums. This change was requested by the Scottish Government as a reflection of the different status of Museums Galleries Scotland and Arts Council England and does not alter in any way the effect of this provision.

I assure noble Lords that the Scottish Government and the Welsh Government have confirmed that they are content that these amendments accurately reflect their devolution settlements and their rights under those settlements. These two devolved Administrations will issue legislative consent Motions ahead of Third Reading and the appropriate official procedure will be followed with respect to Northern Ireland. I beg to move.

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for her introduction and explanation of these amendments concerning the devolved Administrations. I listened carefully and I have one or two queries. It would be helpful if she could clarify the source and inspiration behind the amendments, bearing in mind that they were not tabled for Committee and so their impact was not debated. Will she outline the problem that her department seems to have stumbled across and to which these amendments are the solution? They seem to point to inconsistencies in the Bill between devolved competences and Clause 37(1)(b), on regulatory provision, that I need to grasp. Has the Minister’s department run into problems during dialogue on the Bill with one or other of the devolved Administrations? She did not seem to suggest that.

The Minister’s letter dated 19 October concerning the government amendments stated that the Secretary of State will be able to make regulations with the consent of the relevant Administrations, leaving aside for this purpose the requirement merely to consult on the fees or guidance. I remain unconvinced about how the involvement implied under consent will lead to more effective implementation of the Bill. On the contrary, there is concern that these amendments could result in unwarranted duplication of legislation and bureaucracy, at best, and regulatory divergence and differences at worst. It is regrettable that this group of amendments has been tabled so late in the process and that the House has not had more time to consider the matter. Will the Minister explain why she concluded that these provisions are necessary, bearing in mind that this is a reserved matter, as she said, and that there does not seem to be any policy differences between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations? Does she share the concern that the authorities will have to duplicate the canopy of administration when they may not have the required expertise in dealing with ivory or the trade in endangered species? Can she assure the House that these amendments will not lead to a delay in implementing the Bill or in commencing regulations or to it being implemented on different dates in different parts of the UK?

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, for his comments. I reassure him that these amendments came out of lengthy discussions over time. They were laid when they were laid—in good time for consideration by your Lordships on Report, I think—as a result of a timeline issue. It was necessary to establish whether certain issues were devolved or reserved matters. In my opening remarks I made it very clear that we have listened carefully to the devolved Administrations and that we now fully understand how we can practically make sure that the Bill works in every country of the United Kingdom. I agree with the noble Lord that there could be concerns about bureaucracy and duplication but I think that because of the conversations we have had with the devolved Administrations, that will not be the case. Many of the systems will be used by every country. The enforcement regime will be the same, although it will be conducted by different people north of the border. OPSS, the enforcer in the first instance, operates nationally. When we look at these amendments, it is important that we respect the devolution settlement that we have reached with these nations. We thank the other Governments for their support in pushing this forward. Although the noble Lord has concerns, I reassure him that I believe they will not come to pass.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Quin]

I briefly move Amendment 27, which asks for a report on the impact of the Bill—the Act when it receives Royal Assent—on the hire and sale of musical instruments. The amendment calls for such a report at the end of a period of five years beginning with the day on which the Act is passed. However, since tabling my amendment, I note that my noble friend Lady Jones has tabled Amendment 41, which is in many ways a more satisfactory version of my amendment, because it calls for a more wide-ranging report—including the point that I make in my amendment—on an annual basis. I hope that the Minister will look favourably on Amendment 41 and, because of the existence of that amendment, will say nothing further about Amendment 27.

[Lord Grantchester]

I shall speak to Amendments 41 and 78 in this group. Amendment 41 would require the Secretary of State to prescribe appropriate categories for the purpose of publication and specifically precludes the release of any information that would be unlawful or might lead to the identification of the owner. At this stage, I ask the Minister to go somewhat further than she did in Committee and clarify more specifically what the Government can do, at what intervals and through what media, to give confidence that the Bill is working effectively.

Amendment 78 requires the Secretary of State to publish an annual report covering the implementation and impact of the ivory ban domestically and internationally. This includes the work of the various bodies involved, including the Office for Product Safety and Standards, the Animal and Plant Health Agency and the National Wildlife Crime Unit. We feel that this is very important given the concerns raised in Committee about the resources—or, perhaps more accurately, the lack of resources—available to these organisations, as well as their specific role in the implementation of the Bill.

We also feel that it is important to consider the hire and sale of musical instruments containing ivory, as my noble friend Lady Quin explained. The 20% exemption for musical instruments is designed to allow most instruments to be exempt from the Bill, including pianos and bagpipes. Although we do not support more widely drawn amendments, we must be aware of the impact that the ban will have on this artistic activity.

Importantly, we would also want the report to build on any international reports considering the impact on nations or communities that generate income from ivory. Poachers who kill elephants are usually poor and looking for a way to feed themselves and their family. However, education and development are needed so that communities can be turned to recognise the value of elephant tourism. An elephant is worth 76 times more alive in a savannah than in a market place. The report could augment the view that managed conservation with tourism will offer an alternative sustainable income to elephant communities and wider populations of Africa. Will the Minister go a little further than she was able to go in Committee?

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville]

My Lords, I support Amendments 41 and 78, which were debated in Committee and the Labour Front Bench said they would be bringing them back. While I support them, I am interested in what the Minister has to say.

Ivory Bill

Lord Grantchester Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 12th September 2018 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Grantchester]

38: After Clause 13, insert the following new Clause—
“Report on enforcement resources
(1) Within 12 months of section 12 of this Act coming into force, the Secretary of State must make an assessment of the resources available to enforce the prohibition.(2) The report must consider in particular—(a) the resources allocated or planned to be allocated towards enforcing the prohibition,(b) the potential impact of any change in resources so allocated or planned to be allocated, and(c) the impact on other law or border enforcement activities of the resources so allocated or planned to be allocated.(3) The Secretary of State must lay a report of the assessment under this section before each House of Parliament as soon as practicable after its completion.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause requires an assessment to be made and laid before Parliament regarding the level of resources allocated or proposed to be allocated to enforcing the prohibition against dealing in ivory.

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 38 in the name of my noble friend Lady Jones and to speak to Amendments 59 and 60 in this group. Enforcement is a critical part of achieving the aims of the legislation and must not be neglected. This proposed new clause would require an assessment to be made and laid before Parliament on the level of resources allocated, or proposed to be allocated, to enforcement of the prohibition in ivory dealing. The Minister’s department must demonstrate determination to enforce the provisions of the Bill to underline its commitment.

As noble Lords will appreciate, enforcement is a resource-intensive undertaking. However, many of the agencies and authorities we expect to be involved with enforcement of the Bill are already struggling. Home Office statistics show that the number of police officers fell from 143,734 in March 2010 to 123,142 in March 2017. The CITES Border Force team has just 10 members, who carry out more than 1,000 seizures a year, each one generating months of work. The National Wildlife Crime Unit has only 12 members of staff, including administrative staff, to cover the entirety of its work across the UK. The team not only carries out investigations referred from the Border Force but works right across all the UK wildlife crime priority areas, which is a significant remit outside CITES and includes domestic wildlife, bats, badgers, and prosecutions relating to birds of prey, freshwater pearl mussels and poaching. All of these sit within the UK’s strategic priorities, and the work of the National Wildlife Crime Unit is split right across all these areas.

Ivory products are the most popular wildlife item on the international market, despite a global ban on ivory sales imposed by the 180-nation Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species. This legislation could therefore increase the Wildlife Crime Unit’s work exponentially. A strong commitment to future funding is vital if that important work is to continue. We have heard that the funding is committed until 2020 but, beyond that, the National Wildlife Crime Unit has had no formal indication that there will be continued funding, which clearly causes concern. It is unable to plan or commit to long-term strategies. It is very difficult for any agency to form business plans when, in 20 months’ time, it may not exist at all.

The APHA, an executive agency with an existing wide-ranging remit, will be responsible for administering and enforcing the registration and certification scheme. The Minister has previously confirmed that the APHA will be responsible for conducting spot checks on items registered, to check for accuracy and compliance, and will be working with the police and others to enable them to carry out any enforcement and monitoring action necessary. This is a key and very necessary part of the regulations, so it should be carried out by skilled members of staff trained to identify ivory. Has the Minister’s department carried out a budget and manpower review of the Bill’s implications for the APHA?

Finally, the Minister has advised that the regulator—the Office for Product Safety and Standards—will also play a role in enforcement. There was very little scrutiny in the other place of why this BEIS agency has been selected to oversee most of the enforcement of the Act under civil penalty provisions. Will the Minister explain why the OPSS has been chosen, given that the Ivory Act will form part of the global wildlife protection legislation that is administered by Defra? The OPSS has no expertise in wildlife regulation and there is concern that it will be preoccupied by its other work. Will the Minister assure the House that there will be sufficient funding for specially trained and dedicated staff at the OPSS to work on enforcing the ban on dealing with ivory?

Will the Minister also spell out how the OPSS will operate alongside the police, the CITES border force and the National Wildlife Crime Unit? How will the responsible areas be defined and split between the agencies when the regulator will be in another department? Will the Minister explain how the enforcement will be structured? I trust that the Government will commit to ensuring sufficient manpower and resources, otherwise the Bill will be toothless and treated merely as non-binding guidance, and the public will interpret from this that the Government are not committed to taking the measure seriously.

Amendments 59 and 60 call for a report on the impact of the Act on the ivory market. I may respond later to the remarks from the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sheehan. At this stage, I will comment only that Amendment 59 seems to focus more widely on the international market, whereas Amendment 60 in the name of my noble friend Lady Jones is focused on the domestic market—albeit that both call also for a report from DfID to be included explaining how the work of the department has contributed to the aims of the Bill.

In Committee in the House on Monday, the Government were conducive towards Amendment 35 on producing a report on exemptions to the ivory ban. They intended to share publicly information on how the ivory ban was working in practice. It seems logical to press the Government to go further and report more widely on the domestic ivory market as well and, by extension, include how the Department for International Development has worked with communities overseas that are on the front line in the battle against ivory poaching.

The proposed new clause in Amendment 60 provides for a practical analysis of the impact of the Bill in its ultimate purpose to reduce the illegal trade in ivory and to save the elephant from further slaughter. Importantly, the report should consider the impact on nations and communities that generate income from the trade, given that the Bill responds to calls from African nations that stand as one to demand an end to the market for ivory across the globe that fuels the drive for poaching. As we have argued throughout the passage of the Bill, reducing demand is the key tenet of a wider strategy. It will place the Bill alongside the activities of other nations to provide leadership on an international scale, which the Secretary of State can underline when he hosts the illegal wildlife conference in London in October. I beg to move.

[The Earl of Sandwich (CB)]

My Lords, I follow the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, in speaking to Amendment 59. No one who listened to the Second Reading debate in another place can be in doubt of the Government’s determination to eliminate the criminal trade in ivory. This concerns at least three government departments. We have not yet heard from the international development side of the story and I have not so far spoken, but I will not delay the Bill by repeating what was said at Second Reading.

My primary interest is not in the ivory trade, although I sympathise with many of the concerns expressed, but in the communities where elephants and people live and how they will be affected—or assisted—by the Bill. Several MPs have tried to amend the Bill on their behalf and to widen it to include the protection of other endangered species, listed in CITES, such as rhinos and even tigers and snow leopards. I am not, however, going quite that far today. That is the subject of a later amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Jones.

People are saying different things on the Bill. In Committee, I have been struck by the occasional polarisation of opinion. For example, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, said on Monday that she was protecting elephants, while the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and others were protecting inanimate objects. My noble friend Lord Berkeley said that some of the resources required in monitoring the ivory trade would surely be much better directed towards the problem itself—towards protecting elephants and prosecuting the criminals who try to make money out of ivory. I sympathise with him.

Ivory may not be seen with quite the same reverence at a local level in Africa or Asia. Elephants, on the other hand, especially those that still have their tusks and their teeth intact, are highly respected. There are some robust programmes targeting poachers and dealers, many of whom, as in any crime, are inevitably seeking a way out of poverty. When it comes to the need for human survival, desperation can easily lure people into crime, so poverty alleviation and sustainable development must always be partners of human and animal rights.

One must not be too pious about this. We have to be aware that corruption goes a lot higher than poachers and dealers. In some communities, the elephant is quite unromantic and can become the enemy of development. I have witnessed a dangerous bull elephant in South Africa—I expect a lot of people have. Anyone in Assam will remind you that elephants never forget and wreak terrible and regular vengeance.

DfID already focuses on alternative livelihoods as part of the UK campaign to end the ivory trade. I warmly welcome that. All too often, criminal activity is seen as an easy alternative to low pay and lack of opportunity. There are many organisations tackling this, such as the African Wildlife Foundation, which combines preventing trade in ivory with development projects in local communities. The AWF, for example, has a programme to bring wildlife criminals to justice through the training of rangers and prosecutors. It has had much success with sniffer dogs at Nairobi and Entebbe airports. In the same region, the charity Save the Elephants has recruited Turkana and Samburu women to help to track elephants in its campaign to stop poaching.

The World Wide Fund for Nature has a worldwide scheme to support rangers who carry out essential protection of endangered species, directly benefiting local families as well as elephants. It is monitoring herds, training community rangers and protecting habitats. In safeguarding elephants, it is also helping to support local communities through measures to reduce human-elephant conflict and initiatives to support local livelihoods.

I recognise that the Government have made extensive preparations for the IWT conference next month, but DfID, since it works overseas, always appears to be a junior ministry in these joined-up initiatives. I have looked at its website in relation to elephants. Inevitably, there will be a lot of variety in different countries’ responses to the illegal trade and the conference will doubtless show that there is no simple development formula. This affects how you assess the effect of these programmes. There is no simple development formula beyond the rule of law but, knowing DfID’s investment in the programme, it would be reasonable to ask for some impact assessment.

All that I am seeking with this amendment is a recognition of the work of DfID and its in-country partners through an annual report that makes some assessment of success in both protection and development alongside trade bans. The Government have given huge sums to this and launched impressive targets, but it is important for us to judge how effective these targets are going to be and how they will benefit local people.

There was a degree of euphoria in another place during discussion of the Bill. The ivory campaign inevitably has widespread support on all sides. Nevertheless, we must be aware that, while we can and must reduce the international trade in ivory, the real problems are not taking place on this island and we need a formal assessment of the impact on the people most directly affected. I thank the Opposition Front Bench for presenting a comparable amendment and I hope that we can carry this through to later stages of the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Grantchester]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. I apologise for any confusion. I was unaware that some of my remarks might have been covered in later amendments, so we look forward to understanding those a little better. On Amendment 38, we need to show commitment; the initial load may diminish after the bulk of the registrations has occurred. But we share with the Government the objective of making this legislation a success and the Minister’s confidence in the wildlife crime unit and CITES.

On the later amendments—which I will certainly not be moving—I listened carefully to what the Minister said. I reiterate that this is a clear opportunity for joined-up government to be demonstrated. However, I recognise that the work of DfID involves a wide range of other agencies. I stress again that the value of elephant tourism is extremely high, with an elephant worth 76 times more alive in the savannah than dead in the marketplace. I am heartened that the Government are showing commitment to closely monitoring the impact of the Bill on the international market and to working more widely with the agencies and communities that will be most affected by the ivory ban. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 38 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Grantchester]

61: Clause 35, page 21, line 3, at end insert—
“( ) As soon as practicable after this Act is passed, the Secretary of State must consult on amending subsection (1) to include ivory from other animals and species including—(a) hippopotami;(b) narwhals; and(c) walruses.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would require the Secretary of State to consult on extending the ivory ban to the other ivory bearing animals listed as soon as practical after the Act is passed.

[Lord Grantchester]

My Lords, Amendment 61 is also in the name of my noble friend Lady Jones. As drafted, the Bill has a narrow focus only on elephants. Labour believes that broadening the definition of “ivory” is necessary not only because many CITES species are at risk of becoming endangered but to prevent the narrow focus on elephant ivory, which may unintentionally displace poachers towards hunting other animals with ivory.

Like elephant tusks, hippo teeth are hard-wearing and can be worked into curios and ornaments. According to CITES, since 1975 more than 770 tonnes of hippo teeth have been sold, the bulk from Tanzania and Uganda. The black market’s insatiable demand for ivory has already turned towards hippos. Since the international ban on elephant ivory came into effect, they offer a cheaper and in many ways easier ivory option. Illicit hippo teeth are also far easier to smuggle because of their size and are subject to less protection and awareness. As a result, the number of hippos has declined by 12% to about 100,000 in the past decade—just a quarter of the elephant population. Experts have cited a rise in the demand for hippo teeth as the main reason threatening the mammal with extinction.

Narwhals and walruses are also now considered at risk of being near-threatened. In practice, this means that they could soon become vulnerable because of the changes in their natural environment and the impact of hunting. We need to be aware that this Bill could, counterintuitively, become a factor.

The Bill has a narrow focus on elephants. To speed it towards enactment, its extension to other species would be best enhanced through further consultation. In July, the Secretary of State recognised that consideration needed to be given to this extension, announcing a further consultation to extend the provisions in the Bill to include hippos, walruses and narwhal ivory. This amendment puts that commitment on the face of the Bill. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I shall have to take myself on a course of expertise. If through use of this power it was deemed, because of the consultation and the evidence that we had, that other ivory-bearing species should be encompassed in some form of legislation—which would clearly come before your Lordships for affirmative resolution—there would definitely need to be some understanding on the part of the enforcement officers as to differentiation and whether certain other species should be added. However, I must not take myself down a route of conjecture, although it is very a very valuable and important point. Perhaps after the enactment I should undertake myself some better understanding of the definition.

We should not act unless we have informed evidence—I think this is a point my noble friend Lord Deben would very much approve—so we can make a proper decision on whether the scope of the Bill should be extended to another species. As noble Lords will be aware, as a result of the government amendment in the other place, this delegated power has been extended from applying only to ivory-bearing species listed under CITES to applying to any ivory-bearing species. The CITES-listed species are currently narwhal, killer whale, sperm whale, walrus, and hippopotamus. The amendment brought all ivory-bearing species—for instance, the warthog—into the scope of the delegated power. All those species are therefore in scope of the delegated power and may, therefore, be subject to an evidence-gathering exercise.

As I have said, we have committed to carrying out an evidence-gathering exercise on or as soon as practicable after Royal Assent. To clarify an important point, and reassure the noble Lord, the delegated power also enables the Secretary of State to take action in the future. That is very important because of what your Lordships have already said about the possible unintended consequence of other species becoming poached because of the elephant ivory ban. For instance, a subsequent evidence-gathering exercise could be carried out on the scope of the ban if necessary. This is an important element of us ensuring that, on all ivory-bearing species, we will have the ability to act through this legislation, although this legislation before us today is precisely about the African and the Asian elephant.

I hope that, with the explanation I have given, the noble Lord feels reassured that the Government are committed to carrying out an evidence-gathering exercise on or as soon as practicable after Royal Assent, and that this will consider extending the scope of the ban to other ivory-bearing species. On that basis, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Grantchester]

I thank the Minister for that reply and recognise that the legislation contains the visions that he suggested, although it could perhaps be more emphatically stated. I appreciate his repeated commitment that the Government will follow up on the extension of the ivory ban to other animals through the consultation. With that in mind, I beg leave to withdraw this amendment.

Amendment 61 withdrawn.

Ivory Bill

Lord Grantchester Excerpts

Monday 10th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville (LD)]

My Lords, I have listened to the debate this afternoon with great interest. I have received briefings from the World Wildlife Fund and from the Environmental Investigating Agency, the Born Free Foundation, the David Shepherd Wildlife Foundation, the International Fund for Animal Welfare, the Natural Resources Defense Council, Stop Ivory, Tusk Trust, the Wildlife Conservation Society and the Zoological Society of London. None of them appears to agree with the previous speakers in this debate.

On Amendment 17, the size of the miniature should be defined in the Bill. Otherwise, arguments will arise as to exactly how big a miniature can be. It is important to have this defined in the Bill and not left to some arbitrary decision.

With reference to Amendments 18 and 19, many of the artefacts listed by the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, are simply not in the same class as musical instruments, to which we will return in a later group. Musical instruments are used on a regular basis and are the tools of a musician’s trade and are not an item of antique beauty. They may be that as well, but their main purpose is as a tool of a musician’s trade.

I am disappointed that a university student should accept their fees being paid for by their grandparents selling an antique item which could have been decorated by the body of a dead elephant. I doubt whether many of their fellow students would find this acceptable. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, believes that we live in a civilised society. It is still a civilised society that allows 50 elephants a day to be killed for their ivory. Whatever the percentage of ivory is set at, it will need to be examined and verified. I could not support, and nobody on these Benches could support, a 20% limit and certainly not a 50% limit.

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

I will speak on the amendments in this group. They are amendments to Clauses 6 and 10 regarding other exemptions to the ban on ivory sales and can be categorised as reducing the criteria and extending the number of ivory items that would escape the ban. We do not agree with these amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, noble Lords would expect me to deal with Amendments 25 and 27 in this group. However, they are almost identical to Amendments 21 and 23 respectively, which were in the last group that we debated. Normally in my experience it is Back-Benchers who try to degroup and the Government who try to group up, so this situation must be somewhat unusual. Noble Lords will be pleased that despite the Minister’s response, which did not really address the issues, I do not propose to make the same points again. Instead I will simply say that they apply here as well.

[Lord Grantchester]

My Lords, this group of amendments relates to the exemption definition of musical instruments with less than 20% of ivory content. The backstop date at which Asian elephants were first listed in Appendix I of CITES was 1975, before the poaching crisis of the 1980s. Evidence provided through the consultation, including from the Musicians’ Union, showed that that the vast majority of commonly played and traded instruments, including violins, pianos and bagpipes, contain 20% ivory or less by volume. Unfortunately, I understand that Northumbrian pipes would not qualify under this category due to their size. I appreciate the high esteem that these pipes enjoy and the passion with which my noble friend Lady Quin has spoken, but I gently suggest to my noble friend that there might be other ways in which that tradition can be kept alive for future generations. Instruments containing ivory can still be gifted, donated and bequeathed—perhaps, for example, to a dedicated local organisation or even the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society itself—to enable future pipers to enjoy their music. The region could also grant or fundraise for newly manufactured instruments to use ethical alternatives for ivory. I would like the Minister to confirm that that solution would be possible for the Northumbrian pipers. I also reiterate my previous comment that the registration of any exempted items, including musical instruments, is necessary to ensure compliance.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this group of amendments relates to the musical instrument exemption. I say again that the formulation of the exemption has been extensively considered with the music sector. I think I am permitted as Minister to say that when I hear some of my noble friends, I wonder whether they have quite understood that much consideration has gone into the Bill and that the exemption package has involved a considerable amount of intricate detail.

I have never thought of myself as obdurate and I am not going to be so, but we have to go back to the rationale of the Bill, which is to have narrowly defined exemptions to what is a ban on dealing in ivory. If I may say so, my party’s manifesto in 2010 and 2011 contained a total ban on ivory. That is what we fought that election on. We have come forward with a package that we believe is appropriate and should be seen to be so. In all this, I am interested that so many of the people with whom we are working have recognised that the Government have sought to command this great rationale that we want from the Bill but are also seeking to find ways of common sense prevailing. I hope my noble friends will allow me to put on record that I actually do not identify with many of the comments that they have made about the Government’s intention and seeking to make life difficult; in fact we have sought to find a common-sense resolution.

The amendments include a maximum volume in cubic centimetres below which any item may be considered exempt, and propose we increase the volume of ivory allowed in an instrument to 30%. I make it absolutely clear again that the Government’s intention is not to impact unduly on the livelihoods of professional musicians or indeed amateur musicians. This exemption will allow musical instruments made before 1975 and containing less than 20% of ivory to be exempt from the prohibition on the trade of ivory in the UK. Furthermore, items used as an accessory to play a musical instrument—for instance, a violin bow—also fall within the definition of this clause.

In Committee in the Commons, Paul McManus from the Music Industries Association warmly welcomed the exemption under Clause 8 as it stands. Echoing the responses that we received through our public consultation, he stated that the majority of commonly played and traded musical instruments and accessories, such as the bows of stringed instruments, which my noble friend refers to in his amendment, contain less than 20% of ivory. We recognise that some items such as violin bows may be sold, and therefore need to be registered, in higher volumes. In designing the registration system, we are talking to a range of people likely to be frequent users of the system—for example, representatives from the Association of Art and Antique Dealers and the Music Industries Association—so that we can consider their needs. On the suggestion that we include a maximum volume in cubic centimetres below which any item may be considered exempt, I reiterate what I have previously said: I am afraid that an exemption of this type would act as a loophole for those wishing to export solid pieces of ivory to major-demand markets in the Far East.

I turn to the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Quin. I am always conscious that when my noble friend Lord Attlee expresses support I am in for serious trouble. I respect what the noble Baroness and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Beith, have said about this matter. I would be interested to know about the numbers of instruments involved. If I am allowed to go off piste, I am going to ask my officials to ensure that there is a full and proper discussion with the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society about these matters. I hope your Lordships will understand that in saying that, I can give no promises because it would not be right for me to do so and indeed I am not in a position to. However, I want to ensure that the Northumbrian Pipers’ Society feels that after today it has had a proper session individually with officials so that we can understand the aspects of what the noble Baroness and the noble Lord have said.