Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

3rd reading
Wednesday 12th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friends Lord Hunt, Lord Sandhurst, Lord Frost, Lady Lawlor, Lord Jackson and Lord Lansley for all their contributions and for raising very important issues throughout the discussions on the Bill. I also thank the noble Lords, Lord Leong and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, for their openness, collaborative approach and humour—it was very much appreciated.

On these Benches, we take pride in having pushed not only the Government but even the Liberal Democrats —yes, even them—to acknowledge the importance of protecting the pint. Although they were initially resistant, they eventually recognised its value, and we have ensured that the pint will remain untouched.

As the noble Lord, Lord Leong, noted, the Government made some welcome concessions on this Bill, such as the introduction of a requirement for consultation—a very welcome step. However, as highlighted by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and the Constitution Committee, this remains a skeleton Bill. We think it grants excessive power to the Executive with insufficient parliamentary scrutiny. Whether it is the affirmative procedure or, as once proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, the super-affirmative procedure, we will still advocate for greater parliamentary oversight.

The question of dynamic alignment with the EU remains unanswered yet ever more topical. When my noble friend Lord Frost raised the issue, the Government could not rule out as a fact that the Bill could lead to dynamic alignment with the EU.

We still do not think this is a good Bill, but it is much improved. It not only allows for alignment with the EU but risks overregulation, and we confidently suspect that the lawyers will be busy for a while. But it would be churlish to finish on that note, so I once again thank noble Lords opposite for their incredible work on the Bill. I also thank their officials, who often go unremarked in these matters, and our research team led by Henry Mitson, and in particular the indefatigable Abid Hussain, for their enthusiastic and extensive help.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, the speeches on this Bill have probably been exhaustive. I make just one observation: it appears that the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, has had one pint too many as far as this debate is concerned.

This Bill turned out to be more exciting than its name promised. It has been an interesting process going through it. I thank the Ministers, the noble Lords, Lord Leong and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, for their good humour—I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, on that—their levels of engagement and the engagement from the Bill team and the political office, which helped us fashion this Bill. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Sharpe and Lord Hunt, and their Back-Bench posse, for making the debates on this Bill so interesting. I also thank Cross-Benchers for their support, who made some important interventions.

Special thanks go to my noble friends Lady Brinton, Lord Foster and Lord Redesdale, and a big thank you to Adam Bull, who was our legislative support officer and supported us ably. Your Lordships have shown great interest during this debate in the affirmative process and legislative scrutiny, so I look forward to seeing all of you in Grand Committee when the statutory instruments arrive.

Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Report stage
Wednesday 5th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, this amendment, which is in my name, seeks to leave out Clause 2(2)(k), concerning authorised representatives. The introduction of an authorised representative is a critical concept, but this provision remains too vague and ill defined in the Bill. For businesses, this lack of clarity leads to uncertainty, especially when it comes to the exact role and responsibilities of an authorised representative. Businesses require certainty when it comes to compliance, and this uncertainty may hinder their ability to plan, operate or expand. By removing paragraph (k), we would eliminate potential confusion and ensure that businesses do not face unnecessary administrative burdens or legal risks.

Amendment 22 addresses the issue that these powers could allow Ministers to align UK law with EU regulations entirely or, conversely, to diverge from them in significant ways. Whether Ministers choose to follow EU rules or set our own course, these substantial decisions could have far-reaching implications for the future of UK businesses and consumers. What is particularly troubling, however, is that these decisions could be made through delegating legislation, which , as the DPRRC has stated, would be subject to only a relatively low level of parliamentary scrutiny.

We rehearsed these arguments in previous debates and I will not rehash them at length now. My noble friend Lord Frost addressed this point on the first day of Report and the risk of dynamic alignment with the EU through this Bill, which the Minister stated was not possible. However, he did not explain why, so I beg to move Amendment 15.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, as we have heard, the amendments in this group from the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, would remove specific provisions from Clause 2, including a paragraph on authorised representatives; a subsection defining who product regulations apply to, which I do not think the noble Lord mentioned; and a subsection on environmental considerations before introducing regulations. We strongly oppose these changes, particularly as we emphasised in Committee the importance of environmental considerations for products. I remind the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, that since the DPRRC’s report, the Government took on board Amendment 9 on the previous day on Report and undertook to issue statements, which have a statutory consultation process, before such regulations are laid. The idea that there is no accountability has been somewhat set aside so, with those provisions, we do not feel it is conducive to support these amendments.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I was nearly subject to a flashback, when the when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, mentioned the internal market Act, to the memory of the long hours, deep into the night, spent debating the shortcomings and problems that Act could create—as, to some extent, it has. We are indebted to the noble and learned Lords, Lord Hope and Lord Thomas, that the framework arrangement was brought into that Act to avoid the clashes that were almost certainly going to occur under its original drafting. We owe them a great debt, and on that basis we should listen when they talk to us on these matters. That is why I was happy to sign the amendment.

Happily, I do not have to add much to this, except that it is necessary. This consultation will happen one way or another. The Minister will know that I specifically asked him when we debated Amendment 9 to confirm from the Dispatch Box that the devolved authorities would be part of the consultation process as set out in the Secretary of State’s statement that will arise from this Bill. I hope that the spirit of this amendment can be in that consultation process and in that statement, so that the devolved authorities know that they will get access, which is very important for all the reasons that have been explained by the noble Lord and the noble and learned Lords.

I have one final point on the Government’s attempt, which I think is sincere, to bring the nations of this country back together again. This is really important for lots of reasons, but it also calls into question how the common frameworks will be used in the future. I do not expect the Minister to answer now but he should set out, in either a letter or a meeting, how those common frameworks will develop. Some people may already know but I am certainly not aware of that. As we know, the future is changing and lots of things are happening. How will the common frameworks and central government’s liaison with the DAs adapt to deal with the changing trading environment? With those provisos, I am happy to support the amendment.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I will be very brief. I could not agree more forcefully with the summation of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd. It was very well put indeed. In general, I also find that improving on the words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, is nigh on impossible, so at this point I will confine myself to saying that I agree. On this occasion, I also join the noble Lord, Lord Fox, in his remarks on the consultation; I hope it achieves the things that he has set out. I have nothing else to add, but I look forward to the Minister’s remarks.

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[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, this amendment is not just about protecting the pint in the Bill; it would also ensure that the pint remains protected in law. That is why this amendment is rooted in primary legislation—the Weights and Measures Act 1985—rather than being limited to the scope of the Bill. By embedding these protections in the broader legislative framework, we ensure that the pint remains a legally defined unit of measurement, safeguarded from regulatory drift, ministerial discretion or future legislative changes that could weaken its status.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, for introducing his own amendment, for two reasons. First, it got me thinking about the broad, and therefore possibly flawed, drafting of my own Amendment 38; secondly, the noble Lord’s amendment is also flawed. It addresses the marketing of the pint, which is important, but it does not mirror the wording of the Weights and Measures Act 1985. If sales are banned, marketing is redundant. A mere definition of the pint within this Bill does not ensure that the existing legally binding protections remain intact.

That is where my amendment is different: we are closing any potential gaps, removing any possible loop- holes and ensuring that the pint remains fully protected in trade, measurement and law, and, most importantly, that there can be no future confusion with regard to existing legislation.

In the other House, Daisy Cooper said that the pint is well and truly safe,

“so this scaremongering is just total nonsense.”—”.—[Official Report, Commons, 26/2/25; col. 814.]

If that were true, why the change in Liberal Democrat hearts? Why introduce their own amendment on this matter? It seems that now, they recognise that explicit legal protection is necessary.

I understand that the Government were sympathetic to the purpose of my Amendment 38 but were concerned about the drafting and various technical details, so I hope this manuscript amendment addresses those concerns in full and will ensure that the pint remains Britain’s favourite. I hope the Government will now accept the amendment, and I look forward to their support, as well as that of the noble Lord, Lord Fox, and the Liberal Democrats.

“Fancy a pint?” remains one of the most pleasing questions in the English language. Let us make sure it stays that way. I beg to move.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, when I saw the manuscript amendment some time mid-morning, I was disappointed. I thought we were not going to get a reprise of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, which very few of your Lordships will have appreciated, because it was in Grand Committee, but I am relieved that he was able to give another rendition of it before speaking to the amendment. I understand he may take it on tour to provincial theatres—if he can get the backing.

The noble Lord having tabled this amendment, we then find a manuscript amendment, on which I have to say I congratulate the noble Lord. I have not participated in a manuscript amendment process before, so it was quite good to see it in action. As he noted, last week the Opposition chose to use some of their time in the Commons to debate the noble Lord’s then amendment. He mentioned the speech of my colleague, Daisy Cooper. I commend it to your Lordships, because it was both engaging and very thorough, setting out all the things the Conservative Government did to make the job of a publican much, much harder.

On a serious note, I join the noble Lord in saying, “Minister, please don’t repeat those errors. Many of Britain’s pubs are teetering on the brink; please don’t be the Government who make the final push.” But that is a debate for another day and another Bill, which we will see soon. The issue described by this amendment is not that fatal push for those publicans. For some inexplicable reason, the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, chose to split his amendment from my Amendments 38A and 38B. I will be giving the speech I would have given, had they been in the same group, but I assure your Lordships that I will not then repeat that speech when we get to the next group.

I do not believe that the Minister or his Government have ever had any intention of banning the pint glass, and I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, does not believe that either. However, what we are talking about now is some form of reassurance. So while my honourable friend Daisy Cooper talked about this being unnecessary, she and I agree that this is an opportunity for the Government to reassure people that they have no intention of doing it, and that, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, mentioned in a different context, a future Government would not have that option either.

I ask myself, if the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, is so passionate about the pint, why does he not also care about the pinta? The iconic pint milk bottle is so redolent of the UK, and it deserves the same reassuring protection as the pint glass. I have to say that my father milked cows: milk flows through my veins. So I tabled Amendment 38A, which ensures that both the pint and the pinta enjoy the reassurance of this Bill. It was the tabling of this new amendment, Amendment 38A, that caused the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, to remember that, as well as bars, there are doorsteps. Perhaps the two should not be mixed—certainly not sequentially.

It caused him to realise that he was in danger of proposing an amendment that forgets the milkmen and women on their pre-dawn delivery rounds in so many of our streets—the whir of the float, the clink of the crates. A manuscript amendment was tabled this morning. I did not know that manuscript amendments could be used to completely change an amendment; I thought they were for spelling errors and suchlike. If my mother were still alive, she would have deemed it too clever by half. Sadly, she is not.

The purpose of this debate is to assure the public of the continuation of the use of this iconic imperial measure for the purposes we have discussed. I am not entirely sure that the manuscript amendment, Amendment 38ZA, buttons things down in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, asserts, but I do know that Amendment 38A does this, in plain sight and with no cross-referencing.

I think that the Minister and I see eye to eye on this. That is why I am hopeful that he will indicate support for my Amendments 38A and 38B, and that the Government will accept both. It is clear that, in the event of that acceptance, the hastily amended effort from the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, would be unnecessary. Amendment 38A covers both alcohol and milk. By persuading the Government to accept it, we will have ensured clear and overt reassurance of the preservation of the pint and the pinta. This assurance, and the knowledge that this measure will endure and not be reversed by a Commons majority, are important. We will not support the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, safe in the knowledge that we have rewritten the Bill effectively and avoided any reverse or any ping-pong.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, as noted, I have already spoken to this amendment. I thank the Minister for indicating that the Government will support it and Amendment 38B. It is on the latter that I shall say a few words. If Amendment 38A is there to reassure, Amendment 38B is there to define. There have been a number of statutory instruments that define the units we use. For the avoidance of doubt, Amendment 38B defines the volume of a pint in primary law as 0.56826125 cubic decimetres. For those of your Lordships querying the definition of a decimetre, I recommend the statutory instrument brought to your Lordships’ House during Covid in 2020. I believe that the then Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, and I were among the only Peers physically in Parliament when he brought to Grand Committee his amendment to the Weights and Measures Act 1985. That enshrined an accurate definition of both the metre and the kilogram in law. For metrology fans, it is a debate that I thoroughly recommend. That said, I beg to move Amendment 38A.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Obviously, we do not have a huge amount to say at this precise moment, but I point out for the record that manuscript Amendment 38ZA included reference to Part IV of Schedule 1 to the Weights and Measures Act 1985, which also specifies 0.56826125 cubic decimetres. Once again, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Fox, on his masterclass in semantics. Had he accepted mine, this amendment would have been entirely unnecessary. With that, I have nothing left to say.

Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Report stage
Wednesday 26th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, Amendment 8 is a vital safeguard to ensure that the UK’s regulatory decisions do not inadvertently disadvantage our trade relationships with some of the world’s most dynamic economies. The global economic balance is shifting. Others have alluded to the statistics in previous debates, but they are very straightforward and bear repeating. The US economy is growing while the EU’s share of global GDP is shrinking. Fifteen years ago, the US and the EU each accounted for around 22% of global GDP; today, the US share has grown to 26.3% while the EU’s has declined to 17.3%. These are simple facts, not qualitative judgments.

The economic future lies with markets that are expanding, not contracting; for the record, that is not the same as arguing that it may not still be in our interests to align with some of those in certain cases. Britain’s membership of the CPTPP, for example—one of the fastest-growing trade blocs—will soon be under way, creating immense opportunities for British businesses. With the US, our largest single trading partner, which accounts for about 16% of all UK exports, Britain trades under its own laws. It is essential that our regulatory framework reflects this reality and does not impose unnecessary constraints that hinder our ability to capitalise on these agreements.

The importance of strengthening our economic ties with the US cannot be overstated. On 20 January, the Minister acknowledged that:

“The US is a country that we have to deal with, and our businesses ask us to work with the US”.—[Official Report, 20/1/25; col. 1474.]


We agree. We recognise and acknowledge that the slow progress is no fault of the Government’s, and there will be more to say on that in the months to come; but alignment with the EU, for example, as President Trump’s advisers have made clear, would make a free trade deal with the US all but impossible. Stephen Moore, a senior economic adviser to President Trump, recently stated that Britain must decide whether it wants to follow “the European socialist model” or embrace the US free market. His warning is clear: if the UK continues to shift towards EU-style regulations and economic policies, the United States will be far less inclined to pursue a free trade agreement with it.

This amendment ensures that our regulatory framework does not create barriers to securing future trade deals or diminish the competitive advantages that we have gained because of Brexit. This amendment is about ensuring that our trade policy remains aligned with our national interest and therefore supports jobs, investment and economic growth on the global stage.

I draw attention to a serious concern raised about deep regulatory alignment with the EU, particularly in the context of the UK’s position with the CPTPP. When the UK acceded to the CPTPP, it underwent a regulatory review to ensure that its domestic regulations complied with CPTPP obligations. This included scrutiny of various sectors, including agri-food, where Canada raised concerns about the UK’s precautionary prohibition on hormone-treated beef. The UK was ultimately allowed to accede despite this issue, but significant uncertainty remains about how the UK’s alignment with the EU’s regulatory model in the agri-food sector, among others, would be received by other CPTPP parties. Regardless of whether it is better for the UK to align with the EU or the CPTPP, can the Minister confirm that this should be a matter for debate in Parliament? The potential implications of such a decision are far-reaching, and Parliament must have the opportunity to engage in a thorough and informed discussion on this matter.

As the Government have put forward a Bill that has done nothing but provide uncertainty to this House, my Amendment 64 introduces the basic yet crucial requirement of accountability. If their No. 1 priority is truly growth, they must give serious consideration to this amendment. All it does is ask them to conduct an impact assessment on future economic growth—in other words, it allows room for manoeuvre. Businesses need stability, consumers need confidence and Parliament needs clarity.

As we have discussed at some length, unnecessary ambiguity about the future regulatory framework risks deterring investment and slowing economic progress at a time when we can least afford it. To be clear, growth is not achieved through vague promises or by blindly introducing sweeping powers without accountability. It is achieved by ensuring that every piece of legislation contributes positively to our economy. That is an aim we believe this Government should share, and for that reason I beg to move.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 8 and 64 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe. We are playing on a similar set of variations that we have already played on in several groups. These two amendments are intended to impose additional restrictions on the implementation of this Act.

As we have heard, Amendment 8 prevents the Secretary of State making regulations that could be seen as disadvantaging the UK, or conflicting with its trade agreements. The amendment goes on to list a range of trade agreements, which assumes that if you agree with one of them, you are going to agree with all of them. There is a nature where you have to choose; there are puts and takes. All those trade agreements have varying conditions, and the Government’s job is to try to choose the best option, in a sort of 3D chess game, to make sure that they do the best for this country, as the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, pointed out. But there is a sort of “cake and eat it” idea, that if we do not do the EU, then we can somehow do all those in the list set out by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe. His example then illustrates exactly that we cannot, because there are issues in all of these that we will agree and disagree with. The Government’s role is to have a sufficient tool that enables them to move in the right direction.

I am surprised that the noble Lord chose an agri-food example because, as far as I am aware, that is not in the scope of the Bill, but I may be wrong. Perhaps there are other examples but, using his example, I do not see the banning of the hormone boosting of beef as being something the Europeans imposed on me. I am very pleased we have it, and if I am not in the European Union, I still expect the United Kingdom to uphold those kinds of standards for rearing meat in this country. If the Minister is proposing a wholesale change in the United Kingdom’s animal husbandry processes, techniques and security, then perhaps he should tell your Lordships what other things he expects to change about our food, because they are there to protect consumers from the effects of hormones and antibiotics leaking into our system. I know the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, will probably have lots of statistics, but I hope she does not use them at this time of night.

Neither of these amendments is helpful to the process, and in both cases—particularly the second— I question how an impact assessment of what I think the Minister is proposing can be done. The impact will happen through the regulations that the Act is used to implement. Until we know what the regulations are, we do not know what the impact will be. It is perfectly reasonable for the Minister to say that when the Government are tabling a new regulation, we want to know what the impact of that regulation will be on the economy, the environment and other things. We cannot do a holistic analysis of the impact of the Bill without taking into consideration all the regulations that the Bill will cause to happen. I hope he understands what I am saying. With that in view, it seems to me to be deliberately slowing up the implementation of the Act, and we do not see that the nation benefits from that.

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[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank both noble Lords for their responses. I will answer some of the specific questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Fox. First, I am very grateful for him calling me a Minister on more than one occasion; I would that were the case.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

It is Stockholm syndrome.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Secondly, I point out that the amendment does not prevent; it just says that it should not “disadvantage”. That is not mere semantics but a very substantive point which, I would argue, invalidates the noble Lord’s arguments.

To both noble Lords I would say that the reason I chose the agri-food example—I am well aware that it is not covered in the scope of this Bill—is that it is highly topical and relates to a current trade agreement. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that I did not say that we should not have a ban on hormone-treated beef; I said merely that the merits of such a ban should be debated in Parliament.

I thank the Minister for his response. It was very comprehensive, but it is disappointing that the Government will not accept Amendment 8. We believe this is a proposal that does nothing but strengthen the Bill. It promotes the very growth that Ministers are claiming to prioritise. Given the importance of this issue, I think we have not found agreement and therefore I would like to test the opinion of the House.

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[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, briefly, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, for bringing this up. It was a good idea to have these amendments, and clearly the issue comes in two different parts.

I was happy to vote for the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron. The issue of what I would call piracy is one that we should all be very concerned about, having as we do a national creative industry that we need to protect and preserve.

I am going to throw myself on the mercy of the Government, because I am not 100% sure that some of the products being mentioned in connection with music fall into this category. Consumer products can do, or not, so to some extent we may find that the noble Lord’s suggestions fall into categories that do not necessarily get covered by the Bill. I will be interested to hear from the Government on that, because I should know the answer, but I do not. My sense, having heard what the noble Lord had to say on his Bill, is that we should have another conversation with the Minister about the code of conduct. There is quite a lot of work to be done on the pre-scrutiny of products process to understand where AI has come in.

To single out the energy use of AI from any other energy use is a little strange. If you are buying a product and you care about energy use, it is not just a question of the energy consumed by AI technology. If it is made of steel, a large proportion of the energy came from somewhere else, and that is still important if energy is important to us. On subjects like energy use, there is one set of considerations, and on the use of other people’s intellectual property there is another. That is where we should have a conversation with the Minister.

On the issue of design for accessibility, I agree with the noble Lord. Again, when we have that conversation, the Minister can suggest what the best route might be to take that forward. Perhaps there is more work to be done, and I am happy to join the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, and the Minister if they want me there.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

That was an interesting, if brief, debate. Before speaking to my amendment, I thank my noble friend Lord Holmes for his important amendments. As has been pointed out, Amendment 37 deals with the concept of “inclusive by design”, which is obviously vital in creating products that cater for everyone. It ensures accessibility, usability and fairness across all sorts of diverse populations. By designing products with inclusivity in mind from the start, we acknowledge the varied needs of consumers, including those with disabilities, elderly users and so on.

Through his Amendment 36, my noble friend has raised an important issue. Labelling AI-generated content, including music, is crucial to ensuring transparency and consumer protection. This subject is growing in prominence and importance, and I have little doubt that we will return to it. In a world where AI-generated works are becoming more prevalent, it is essential that consumers can distinguish between content created by humans and that created by AI.

In addressing my Amendment 43, I begin by referencing the Government’s Explanatory Notes, which, as my noble friend Lord Camrose has mentioned, state that consideration is given to the need to be able to adapt to new technologies such as artificial intelligence. With that in mind, we have tabled this amendment to promote innovation and investment in the UK’s AI sector, which will continue to be vital in the coming years.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Leong, that this not an AI Bill, but this is not particularly an AI amendment. It is not about what AI is or does. Many of those discussions, as we have heard in this brief debate, have yet to be had in broader society, never mind in this House. However, we have to acknowledge that the UK has a thriving tech sector that has consistently been a leader in developing cutting-edge technologies, and we want to strengthen it by ensuring that we have sensible, pro-growth AI regulation that fosters innovation while safeguarding consumer interests. That should include a focus on small and medium-sized enterprises, which are vital for generating new ideas and driving technological advancements.

International competitiveness is crucial, especially in emerging technologies like AI. We have already seen how overly burdensome regulations such as those proposed in the EU’s AI Act can have a stifling effect on innovation. When the EU’s AI Act was in the works, executives from 160 leading companies in the industry came together and drafted an open letter warning of the potential negative consequences of excessively strict regulations. They highlighted that such an approach could ultimately harm businesses, slow innovation, put Europe at a competitive disadvantage globally and therefore, by extension, aid those in other parts of the world whose intentions are perhaps not so benign as we like to think ours are.

We must avoid falling into the same trap here in the UK. It is essential to ensure that AI is developed responsibly and ethically, but we must strike the right balance. Overregulating this vital sector could choke off the growth of our tech ecosystem, discourage investment and drive the innovation that we need here overseas. This amendment aims to protect this growing and vital industry. It is specifically drafted in such a way as to ensure that British industries have their interests taken into account, and that, of course, includes SMEs. I urge the Government to accept.

Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Report stage
Wednesday 26th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I was going to give a long analysis of the economics that demonstrate how poorly manufacturing businesses have performed since the implementation of the trade and co-operation agreement, but that would have been a Second Reading speech, so I decided not to give it. Instead, I will speak to the amendments we have before us. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Russell, for tabling his amendment and for allowing me to sign up to it.

Members on the Conservative Benches seem to find terror wherever they go. There is danger; there are plots, schemes and Trojan horses all over place. I would not like to live in their world; it must be very frightening. This Bill does what it says it does, and this amendment does what it says it does. It makes simple a process that has been put forward very carefully and in a measured way by the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool.

There are all sorts of things that the Liberal Democrats would like to do that are far more extreme than the noble Lord’s amendment, but we recognise the limitations of this legislation and the nature of what we are debating. That is why I have supported the noble Lord, Lord Russell. It is a simple and modest measure that has the practical benefit of helping out businesses.

To close, the noble Lord, Lord Jackson, said that it would not be sensible to close off options—quite. Closer alignment with EU regulations within the government negotiated red lines would yield a boost to the UK economy of between 1% and 2%. That sounds like an option to me.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, in view of the lateness of the hour and the closeness of the dinner break, I will also be very brief. I thank my noble friends Lord Frost, Lord Jackson and Lady Lawlor for bringing forward these important amendments. I was happy to sign some of them. They raise a fundamental concern about the potential alignment with the European Union, specifically through regulations that could be made under the Bill. As my noble friend Lord Frost put it, that is a significant constitutional matter and, I might add, it is one that has been highlighted by the Constitution Committee—again, we are back to the committees of your Lordships’ House.

The issue at hand is that, as currently drafted, the Bill contains provisions which would allow the United Kingdom’s regulatory framework to align with EU laws in—this is key—a dynamic or ambulatory manner. This means that, as time goes on, our regulations could automatically change in line with the evolving laws of the EU without any further scrutiny or review by the Houses of Parliament. This is deeply problematic. It would allow the UK to be influenced by regulatory frameworks and standards that are set externally and potentially lock us into a regulatory direction that we do not wish to follow. That is not the same as saying that we should not be able to adapt, adopt, negotiate, recognise or seek mutual recognition of the best regulations from whichever equivalent regime they come from.

These amendments address and achieve the aims set out so eloquently by my noble friends. If my noble friend is minded to test the opinion of the House later, we will support him.

Register of Overseas Entities (Protection and Trusts) (Amendment) Regulations 2025

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 3rd February 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, the register of overseas interests—the ROE—was introduced under the Economic Crime (Transparency and Enforcement) Act 2022, which, if I may say, is an excellent Act. I know this to be true because I took it through the House of Lords with considerable advice and assistance from the noble Lords, Lord Fox and Lord Vaux—I have been looking forward to saying that, if I am honest.

The aim of the Act was to increase transparency regarding overseas entities, as has been noted—and let me thank the noble Baroness for her extensive introduction to these regulations. The primary objective was to ensure that beneficial ownership information was accessible, so that the public and authorities could better understand who owns land in the UK. However, as we consider these regulations and whether these measures truly enhance transparency or complicate the process and introduce further risks, we have a couple of concerns that are legitimate to raise.

The Government justify these amendments as a means to protect individuals at risk of violence or intimidation, while simultaneously permitting greater access to information on trusts. The reality is that these changes appear to broaden the scope of who can apply for protection as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, noted. That would make it easier for individuals to hide behind the shield of protection, even when they do not necessarily have a legitimate interest. It reads as if it is potentially an invitation to game the system. So I ask the Minister: are the Government convinced and happy that these regulations, as currently drafted, are robust enough to prevent that potential risk?

Additionally, the amendments propose new mechanisms to address trust information, but the conditions for such access, especially in bulk applications, also raise concerns about the potential for misuse. While the intention might be to make certain information available to those with a legitimate interest, the Government have only partially clarified what constitutes a legitimate interest, which we think leaves room for exploitation and, potentially, unnecessary legal battles.

There is also an application question as, again, the noble Lord, Lord Fox, mentioned. How will the registrar judge things such as how the disclosed information will be used? What criteria will they use to judge legitimacy? For example, is it okay if it was the Times of London asking and would it not be okay if it was some obscure online publication? How exactly will that situation be resolved? It is something I will come onto in a second, but will it be explained in greater detail in the explanatory guidance that will be published shortly?

These measures are proposed to expand the category of individuals who can apply to Companies House to have their information protected, where it may be disclosed under the register of overseas entities. It would also enable trust information on the register that is currently restricted from public inspection to be accessed by application if certain conditions are met.

A significant measure is that of the protection of information. Although expanding the categories of individuals who can apply for protection may sound like a good way to shield vulnerable persons, we are concerned that it risks creating opacity in the system where more people, beyond those in positions of risk, can hide their information from the public eye. The original purpose of the economic crime Act was to shed light on overseas ownership and its implications; we worry that that is now at risk of being undermined by this expansion.

As I and other noble Lords have noted, the Act aimed to simplify and enhance transparency, but these proposed changes seem to introduce additional layers of potentially complex bureaucracy. The process for accessing and protecting information could become more complicated, adding unnecessary burden both for the authorities responsible for managing the data and for the public. Will these changes create a more efficient system in the end, or will they merely add unnecessary red tape to an already complex regulatory landscape?

The Explanatory Notes say:

“Guidance will be made available”.


Can the Minister tell us when it will be made available and whether it will address some of these concerns, such as by going into considerably more detail on the definition of and circumstances surrounding “legitimate interest”? We agree with the Explanatory Notes that, if this measure is to work, extensive and expansive communications are absolutely key.

Broadly speaking, we support these regulations, of course, but we have legitimate questions. The noble Lords, Lord Fox and Lord Vaux, also asked legitimate questions, including about exactly how these regulations will be applied and so on.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I have one further question, which I meant to ask earlier. The Minister talked about national security interests in the context of legitimate interests. How can national security interests be reflected in Companies House when it is almost certain that nobody there will have sufficient security clearance to be told what the national security interest is in order to apply it in its decision-making process? Clearly, it will not forward every single application to someone who does have security clearance, so how on earth will this be mechanically organised?

Reporting on Payment Practices and Performance (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2024

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 13th January 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, it is useful to have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, as they have made it their business to address this issue over a number of years. I am pleased that they view this instrument with some positivity and I am happy to concur.

For too long, we have seen large companies use the cash flow of small companies to bolster their own cash flow. This happens not just in the construction sector, but it has been particularly apparent there. Of course, in some famous cases, such as Carillion and others, it became an industry unto itself and the core purpose of the organisations seemed to be to run cash flow on other people’s profit and loss accounts.

We have moved on some way, but I call into question the Minister’s comment—I also welcome her to her place—that it enables companies to make informed decisions about whom to trade with. In many cases, these companies already know what treatment they will get from those they trade with. They do not have a choice about with whom they trade, if they wish to continue in business. Sanctions and whistleblowing on those companies becomes an issue, as they dare not call foul because they will not get contracts in the future. That is the nature of the relationship: it is an abusive relationship, almost literally, between the contractor and the lead company. We need to understand the nature of that relationship to put into context some of the things we are talking about here.

Without wishing to sound nerdy, the average payment time can hide an awful lot of sins. Standard deviation could be more useful—as the noble Baroness will understand—because companies can be played against others.

I also wonder, rather suspiciously, whether retention becomes something else. It would be easy to look at this from the other end of the telescope, call it a completion bonus and retain that instead. We have to be a bit careful about naming things rather than describing them.

I was happy to be reminded of those halcyon days when we were working on the Procurement Act and of the mercurial rise of the noble Baroness from critical Back-Bencher to Front-Bench proponent. I ask a simple question: would it be legal, under current procurement regulations, for me as a local authority to refuse to take on a contractor which was in all other factors equal to a competitor bidder but had reported poor retention and payment numbers? Is it legal for me to turn it down on those terms?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in welcoming the Minister to her place. The construction sector in the UK is not only one of the largest but one of the most vital industries underpinning our economy, as both noble Lords noted. In 2022, the sector achieved a turnover of £487 billion and employed over 3 million individuals, representing about 8% of the UK workforce. Its contributions are therefore fundamental in driving economic growth, fostering innovation and advancing development throughout the nation.

However, the sector is also characterised by considerable fragmentation. There are over 444,000 businesses engaged in a broad spectrum of work, ranging from contracting and product supply to associated professional services. The fragmentation is compounded by complex, multi-tiered supply chains, as major projects often involve 50 or more firms working collaboratively.

This brings us to the topic of retention sums, which are a long-standing practice in the construction sector. Retention—as it is still called for now—sums serve as a financial safeguard and ensure that work meets the required standards. Typically, half of the retention is released upon project completion while the remaining portion is withheld until the expiration of the defect’s liability period, proving additional assurance that all specifications are met. That, at least, is the dictionary definition of retention.

Given the current practices within the sector, we need to focus on the amendment introduced by these regulations. They all come into force on 1 March 2025 and apply to the financial year starting on or after 1 April 2025. The changes impose specific reporting requirements for qualifying companies and limited liability partnerships operating within the sector. The amendment extends existing reporting regulations and requires qualifying companies to disclose detailed information about their payment practices, policies and performance in relation to retention clauses in construction contracts.

Companies will be required to report on whether retention clauses are included in their contracts, the percentage of retention withheld and the procedures followed for releasing these sums. Additionally, businesses will be asked to disclose the contract value thresholds under which no retention clause applies and outline the standard rate of retention typically applied in their agreements. By 1 March 2025, qualifying businesses will be obliged to publicly report on their payment practices, specifically concerning retention clauses in construction contracts.

It is important that this amendment acknowledges the significant challenges caused by fragmentation within the construction sector, which of course affects businesses of all sizes. We understand that the aim of these regulations, as the Minister noted, is to enhance transparency by requiring businesses to report not only the inclusion of retention clauses but whether their retention practices align with industry standards or are more onerous than typical practices. Furthermore, companies will be required to provide clear descriptions of the processes that they follow to release retention sums, which is intended to ensure greater clarity and fairness for all parties involved. However, there are several important points on which further clarification is needed.

These amendments are said to provide increased transparency, fairness and clarity within the construction sector, but can the Government explain the mechanisms by which the regulations themselves will be enforced? How will compliance be monitored and what penalties will be applied to businesses found to be in breach of the new requirements? Additionally, while the new regulations seek to promote fairer payment practices, can the Government elaborate on how they plan to ensure that large companies are not able to exploit their market position, despite the new transparency measures? Will there be any safeguards in place to prevent larger firms imposing even more burdensome retention clauses on SMEs?

The regulations are presented as a solution to the ongoing issue of delayed payments, which have long caused a financial strain on SMEs, yet how will the Government measure the effectiveness of these changes? What evidence is there to suggest that requiring businesses to disclose their retention practices will have a significant impact on the cash-flow issues faced by smaller companies? As an aside, the noble Lord, Lord Fox, has raised an important point about how we will judge these companies in future, based on these particular metrics. These are not, of course, the only things by which one should judge a company or its potential to complete a project successfully and efficiently, so will there be some way of measuring that as well? If that has not been considered, it is something that should be.

While these measures are presented as steps towards promoting better cash-flow management and financial security for smaller businesses, we would urge the Government to further clarify how the regulations will be implemented and monitored to ensure that they achieve their intended outcomes. Will there be a review process to assess whether these regulations are having the desired effect on industry practices and the broader economy?

[Baroness Gustafsson (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the support for these regulations from across the Committee. I thank the noble Lords and noble Baronesses present for their constructive comments on this measure. Allow me to try to address each of the questions that they asked in order.

First, we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare. He asked a number of questions, the first of which was: have the previous regulations come into effect yet? The answer is yes; they came into effect and required a report as of 1 January 2025.

The noble Lord’s second question was about how the regulations will be enforced and how the accuracy of the data will be monitored. For that, the Department for Business and Trade will implement a more visible compliance and enforcement approach with non-compliant businesses going forward. Businesses that do not take action to meet their reporting obligations will be prosecuted.

We had a question, supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, about why we would not just abolish retention payments altogether—that is, why are we taking this measure forward and not abolishing it in its entirety? The Government are aware of the impact that retentions have on the supply chain. We are very committed to going further to tackle poor payment practices: in September 2024, we announced our plans to consult on new legislative measures. Now, as part of that consultation, we intend to consult on measures that will address poor payment practices.

Moving on, I refer to the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Fox: does defining retention create a potential loophole for companies? Will they suddenly be redefined as completion bonuses? This is one of the arguments in favour of taking this sort of measured, proportionate approach, because we will be able to identify any unintended consequences of some of this legislation, but a key aspect of addressing the naming convention is that it is very clearly defined in a schedule not by what it is called but by the behaviours that it exhibits. Of course, we will monitor this and make sure that, if it requires an update, we will do so accordingly.

The noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, asked what the penalties are for failure to comply. The penalty for a breach of the 2017 regulations is an unlimited fine where a company fails to report or makes a false report.

Lastly, the noble Lord, Lord Fox, asked about sanctions, whistleblowing and the imbalance of power in the supply chain. I say in response that the imbalance of power in the construction supply chain is an ongoing challenge; that is widely understood and acknowledged. However, through the introduction of payment reporting measures for retentions and the enforcement of them, we will be able to create an incentive for firms to improve their payment practices in relation to retentions, as has happened following the introduction of the payment reporting regulations. As I talked about in my introduction to this instrument, we have seen the number of businesses paying within 60 days improve from 82% to 96%, so we should be encouraged that we are supporting correct behaviours with regard to policy.

This Government are committed to making sure that we tackle late and long payments. We want the UK to be the best place in the world for both large and small businesses to thrive. This work on retention payments aligns closely with the department’s wider policy on late payments and will strengthen the existing payment reporting regulations. It will provide for enhanced transparency in relation to the practice of withholding retentions—a practice that, as we have heard, is all too often unfair to small businesses and can, of course, be subject to abuse. It will also provide information to small firms and the construction supply chain about the policies and performance of firms that they are considering working for, enabling them to make better-informed decisions and to secure the payment of moneys due.

Registrar (Identity Verification and Authorised Corporate Service Providers) Regulations 2024

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 13th January 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for his explanation. These regulations are clearly a crucial step in modernising and strengthening the UK’s corporate governance. Building on the Companies Act 2006, they were laid before Parliament, as the noble Lord, Lord Leong, noted, by the previous Conservative Government in May 2024 to address the growing concerns about corporate fraud and business registration transparency.

The regulations introduce unique identity verification for individuals involved in setting up and controlling companies and will ensure that the integrity of the business registration process is robust. The initiative aims to combat the use of fraudulent or stolen identities in business dealings and will make it harder for individuals to engage in corporate fraud. The core aim of the regulations is to ensure that only properly verified individuals can establish and control companies. The registrar is granted the authority to impose further requirements on applicants, with the flexibility to adapt as identity-verification technologies evolve.

The regulations also introduce unique identifiers for verified individuals and authorised corporate service providers, streamlining the registration process and ensuring that the Companies House register remains accurate and reliable. I think I was the Minister whom the noble Lord, Lord Fox, referred to. I sincerely hope that the funding remains robust, as it was a few months ago. I look forward to hearing an answer to that question.

The ACSPs are now subject to stricter oversight, including anti-money laundering regulations, with provisions for suspension or deauthorisation if they fail to meet required standards. I will come back to that in a second. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, also asked why we need ACSPs. They, or their equivalents, are common in many jurisdictions and they provide an incredibly useful service to people who wish to set up a business but have neither the time nor the inclination to get into the weeds of doing so and prefer to subcontract it. I think it is perfectly reasonable that ACSPs exist and they just need to be properly verified.

While the intention behind the regulations is clear—they improve the integrity of company registration and prevent fraud—there are several areas where further clarification is required. Given that the regulations were last discussed under the previous Government, I would like to understand how the current Government intend to address the evolving nature of identity-verification technologies.

In addition, these regulations impose new obligations on ACSPs, particularly in terms of record-keeping and in providing additional information to the registrar. Although these measures are essential for transparency, I ask the Government, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, also asked, to clarify how these new duties will be enforced. What penalties will be applied to ACSPs that are found to be non-compliant and what measures are in place to ensure that these rules are upheld consistently across all service providers?

I am also concerned about smaller businesses and individuals who may be impacted by these additional verification processes. Will the Government ensure that the new regulations do not create undue burdens on smaller enterprises, which may already be facing significant challenges in meeting regulatory and other requirements?

Finally, while the power to suspend or deauthorise an ACSP is necessary to combat fraud, I would like assurances that proper safeguards will be in place to protect service providers from unjust penalties or removal.

In conclusion, these regulations are important reforms to strengthen the UK’s business environment and combat fraud. As with any regulatory framework, careful consideration is needed on enforcement, monitoring and adaptation, so a review process will be essential to assess the regulations’ impact on businesses of all sizes to ensure that they deliver their intended benefits without imposing unnecessary burdens.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

With the Committee’s permission, I have just one question that I had meant to ask the Minister. It is around the obligation to retain identity information over seven years, which the noble Lord just mentioned. In the event of the ACSP going out of business, what is the expectation of how that information, which would not otherwise be retained, would be retained for the potential use of Companies House?

Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Committee stage
Wednesday 27th November 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, had I been a little shrewder on the grouping, I would have included in this group Amendment 106, which we will debate in the antepenultimate group of the Bill, as it also addresses Clause 7 and goes after the same objective of information sharing. Whether it is lithium-ion batteries or some other danger, it is important that we learn from the problems that are established and that the right people can get that information, so that learning process can start.

I suggest that, whether it is the process set down by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, which we support, or something like my Amendment 106, or something that the drafters sitting behind the Minister can do much better than we can, there needs to be a point in this Bill about a process of information sharing, whether it is set out in detail, as in my amendment, which talks about who or what those bodies are, or whether it is a more general duty, as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has set out. We support these proposals, and I hope that we can have a debate next time. I hope that the Minister will acknowledge the need to understand dangers, learn from them and move to be able to prevent them.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, for her important amendments. I, too, am looking forward to exploring the meaning of “relevant authorities” in the next group. If this is really about product safety, of course we have to have regard to unsafe products, and of course that information ought to be shared with the emergency services, so I have absolutely no problem in supporting all those amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Fox (LD)]

Briefly, I of course support these four amendments from my noble friends, but I will say a few words on Amendment 56. In a previous group, amendments tabled by me and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, on the circular economy and disposal, also touched on these issues and it would be worth while looking at those in conjunction with the amendments from my noble friend Lord Redesdale.

To give a bit of advice to my noble friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, made some interesting points about it being fulfilment centres rather than the actual online marketplace. In some cases, the supplier is foreign but the fulfilment centre is local. Perhaps there is some advice to take from the thoughts of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on that, as they seemed a way of bridging the issue of the supplier being a long way away in a different country, whereas the people dispatching the item are most definitely here. With those provisos, I reiterate my support for all four amendments.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I will be very brief. I found that a most interesting explanation of lithium-ion batteries and their various aspects. I confess to not being an expert at all, so it is very clear that I—and, I imagine, the general public—need to be better informed on this. I imagine that regulations will form an essential component of becoming better informed.

It was interesting how the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, said that he was worried about the scope of the Bill. This Bill will take pretty much anything you like—it is enormous—so I would not have too many concerns about that. I ended up, funnily enough, with a couple of questions, which we can perhaps discuss later. I am curious to know how much of the safety of these batteries is contingent on the way that they are stored, used and maintained. That would be an interesting subject to explore further.

Product Regulation and Metrology Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Committee stage
Wednesday 20th November 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly on Amendments 30, 115 and 125, which are in my name. As the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, observed, they are designed to produce guard-rails that significantly strengthen the environmental and sustainability part of the Bill. It seems inconceivable to me that legislation of this kind would not carry these requirements.

Amendment 30, which is the substantive one, would add new subsection (2A) to Clause 2 in order to ensure that future regulations under the Act include provisions that relate to environmental impact assessments, the circular economy and granting consumers the right to repair products. On the latter, despite attempts, the tendency is to continue to find products manufactured with increasingly complex modules that defy cost-effective repair or sensible re-use, which should be an important part of the future economy. This amendment does not dot “i”s or cross “t”s, because that is the role of the actual regulation, but it sets a standard that we should be looking at for the regulation process. That is it; I could go into more detail, but I do not think I have to.

Amendments 115 and 125 are definitions that would help explain what we mean by “circular economy” and “right to repair”. I hope that His Majesty’s Government will find some sympathy with all of this group and find a wording. I am not proud about my words; I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, is the same. Let us find a way of putting these proposals into primary legislation because these are really important issues.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I will be brief. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, for introducing this group. I assure her and the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that we on these Benches want to see a bright future for our green and pleasant land. That said, we have some concerns about these amendments.

The first relates to the themes that the Committee has been exploring throughout this session. The Bill confers, as we have discussed at length, extensive Henry VIII powers on the Secretary of State. These amendments are broadly drawn and, we feel, have considerable holes in them. Given the wide Henry VIII powers conferred on the Secretary of State, it is not hard to imagine a world where a crazed zealot occupies the position of Secretary of State—it is not hard to think of those, is it?—and decides to apply these provisions in extreme ways without any scrutiny. We really should not lay ourselves open to that. These decisions should be subject to democratic scrutiny. Opinions will be sure to differ on the definitions of some of the phrases in these things. That is not to say they are wrong; it is just that opinions can, and will, differ.

My second point is that we are concerned that the amendments would impose significant costs on businesses. They will stifle competition and harm growth; obviously, this comes at a time when businesses are grappling with significant challenges. Although the proposals appear virtuous on the surface, in practice, they represent an unnecessary and impractical burden on businesses and consumers. That comes at a time when the country needs growth—a point that has obviously been acknowledged by the Government.

These amendments would create additional regulatory burdens, which would hamper industries already struggling with economic headwinds. I also note—I will expand on this theme in later debates—that the market is already supplying many of the solutions sought through these amendments. We believe that, for the many businesses —especially small and medium-sized enterprises—that are already struggling due to various factors, the cost of compliance with these rigid requirements could be devastating. It is not just businesses that will be affected because, of course, those costs will be passed on to consumers. Before any amendments in this group can be considered, surely we must assess the potential unintended consequences for businesses and consumers.

We have a strong record of delivering improvements for our environment but we on these Benches are clear that we should avoid overburdensome regulation on businesses. That said, informing consumer choice is an important component of efficient markets so, notwithstanding our objections, Amendments 28 and 30 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Fox, have some merit. He is channelling his Orange Book foundations here. Overall, we would not support these amendments, for the reasons that I have outlined.

Computer Systems: Independent Testing

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Monday 12th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My noble friend raises some good points and, as I said, the Government are considering the right way to do that. If I talk about some of the difficulties, it might illustrate this point to the House. Amending legislation to enable cybersecurity activities involves accessing computer systems, and the data is complex. This needs a lot of thought. We would need to establish what constitutes legitimate cybersecurity activity and the boundaries of such activity. We would need to consider who should be allowed to undertake such activity, where the professional standards would need to be complied with and what reporting or oversight would be needed. We cannot make changes that would prevent law enforcement agencies and prosecutors investigating and prosecuting those who commit cybercrimes. It is right to consider this carefully and that is what we are doing.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister set out a long list of things that need considering. I understand his point, so could he perhaps tell us the timetable for this process, when we might hear the verdict on all these considerations and perhaps see some legislation before your Lordships’ House?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, the public consultation on this process concluded only in November 2023, so we have not had a huge amount of time to consider all the responses. As I have explained, we will be reviewing how to take forward the recommendations and will update Parliament in due course.

Investigatory Powers (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Report stage
Tuesday 23rd January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Ponsonby and Lord Fox, for their remarks in this debate. I reassure the noble Lord, Lord Fox, that any cheek-blowing he witnessed was more a reflection of the previous marathon speech than a reflection on his amendments.

Amendment 21, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, would require that the enforcement of data retention notices—DRNs—would apply only to UK recipients of those notices. DRNs and technical capability notices—TCNs—can be given to a person overseas, but only TCNs are currently enforceable overseas. Clause 16 seeks to amend Sections 95 and 97 of the IPA to allow the extraterritorial enforcement of DRNs in order to strengthen operational agility when addressing emerging technology, bringing them in line with TCNs. It is vital to have this further legal lever, if needed, to maintain the capabilities that the intelligence agencies need to access the communications data they need to, in the interests of national security and to tackle serious crime.

The Government therefore oppose Amendment 21 as it goes fundamentally against what the Government are seeking to achieve through Clause 16 and would not provide any additional clarity to telecommunications operators. As DRNs are already enforceable against UK recipients, there is no need to re-emphasise that in the Bill.

I turn to the amendments to Clause 17 concerning the notice review period. This clause is vital to ensure that operators do not make changes that would negatively impact existing lawful access while a notice is being comprehensively reviewed. Maintaining lawful access is critical to safeguard public safety, enabling law enforcement and the intelligence community to continue protecting citizens during the review period.

Let me be clear: operators will not be required to make changes during the review period to specifically comply with the notice. Rather, under Clause 17 they will be required to maintain the status quo so that law enforcement and intelligence agencies do not lose access to any data that they would have been able to access previously. The review process is an important safeguard, and that right of appeal will remain available to companies.

On Amendment 27, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, the Government have noted the strength of feeling from parliamentarians and industry regarding the current uncertainty over the timeframe for conducting a review of a notice. We have therefore tabled Amendments 26, 32 and 33 to Clause 17 to address that uncertainty and provide further clarity and assurances regarding the notice review process.

The existing powers within Sections 90 and 257 of the IPA do not give the Secretary of State the power to specify in regulations the time period within which a review of a notice must be completed. The Government are therefore introducing a new regulation-making power to enable the Secretary of State to specify in regulations the length of time the Secretary of State can take to reach a decision on the review of a notice upon receipt of the report by the judicial commissioner and the Technical Advisory Board, and the overall length of time that a review can take.

The amendments will also make provision for a judicial commissioner to issue directions to the Secretary of State and the person seeking the review, as they see fit, to ensure the effective management of the review process. That will give the judicial commissioner the power to issue directions to both parties, specifying the time period for providing their evidence or making representations, and the power to disregard any submissions outside those timelines. These amendments will provide operators the certainty they require regarding how long a review of a notice can last, and therefore how long the status quo must be maintained under Clause 17. They will also provide further clarity on the process and management of that review.

Specifying timelines will require an amendment to the existing regulations concerning the review of notices. The Government commit to holding a full public consultation before the amendment of those regulations and the laying of new regulations relating to Clause 20, which provides for the introduction of the notification notices. Representations received in response will be considered and used to inform both sets of regulations, which we have clarified in the Bill are subject to the affirmative procedure.

Amendment 35, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, seeks to specify in statute who the Secretary of State must consult before laying regulations relating to Clause 20 and the introduction of notification notices, and the factors that the Secretary of State must have regard to when making those regulations. I hope the commitment that I have just made to hold a full public consultation provides the necessary reassurance to the noble Lord that all relevant persons will be consulted before making the regulations, and that he will agree that is it unnecessarily prescriptive, and potentially restrictive, to put such details in the Bill.

Amendments 22, 25, 28 and 31, also tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, seek to limit the extraterritoriality of Clause 17 and ensure that operators can make changes to their services and systems for users in other jurisdictions during a review. To be clear, the Bill as currently drafted means that companies can make changes to their services during a review. They could choose to roll out new technologies and services while the review is ongoing, including in other jurisdictions, so long as lawful access is built into them as required to maintain the status quo. Furthermore, the status quo will apply only to whichever of their systems and services are covered by the notice in question. Naturally, anything outside the scope of the notice is unaffected by the requirement. I also emphasise that the control of telecommunications systems used to provide telecommunications services in the UK does not stop at borders, and it is highly likely that any such arbitrary geographical limitations would in fact be unworkable in practice.

Amendments 23, 24 and 29 seek to raise the threshold with regard to relevant changes that an operator must not make during a review period to a change that would “substantially limit” their ability to maintain lawful access. This would not make the position any clearer as “substantially” is a subjective test. Moreover, it would constrain Clause 17 in a way that would fundamentally prevent it from achieving its objectives: to ensure that the same level of lawful access available before the notice was issued is maintained during a review period.

Lawful access provides critical data to law enforcement and intelligence agencies. Constraining access to data that was previously available, in a limited capacity or substantially, may seriously undermine investigations and the ability to protect our citizens. It is therefore vital that the status quo is maintained during the review period. It would also be difficult to define “substantially limit” without referring to a “negative effect on” a capability.

Amendments 36 to 38 to Clause 20, also spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, seek to raise the threshold and provide more proportionality. As I have emphasised on every occasion we have debated the Bill, necessity and proportionality constitute a critical safeguard that underpins the IPA. Authorisations are approved by an independent body and all warrants and notices must be approved by a judicial commissioner. There is considerable oversight of authorisations, meaning that the threshold is already high. Necessity and proportionality justifications are considered for every request for a notice, warrant or authorisation and, by extension, whether it is reasonable to issue that request to the operator. Once operators are in receipt of such a request, they are required to provide assistance. The proposed amendments are therefore not required.

Finally, government Amendment 34 is a consequential amendment necessitated by the introduction of Clause 19, which amends the functions of a judicial commissioner to include whether to approve the renewal of certain notices.

I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate—

[Lord Fox (LD)]

Before the Minister sits down, winding back to the point about territoriality, he spoke of national boundaries as being arbitrary. It would help me to understand what kind of activity the Government envisage reaching across those boundaries, which he refers to as arbitrary; in other words, what would the Government be seeking to do extraterritorially?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

If it would help, I am happy to write to the noble Lord with some sensible and practical scenarios because I do not think it is appropriate to make them up at the Dispatch Box, if that is acceptable.

I was just about to thank the noble Lord for the time he has taken to talk me through his concerns ahead of Report and at various other stages of the Bill on various other issues. However, I hope that I have provided reassurances through my comments at the Dispatch Box and the government amendments that we have tabled. I therefore invite the House to support these amendments and invite the noble Lord to withdraw Amendment 21 and not move the others he has tabled.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Investigatory Powers (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Committee stage
Wednesday 13th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I am anticipating the Minister sitting down shortly. I remind the Minister that I asked a specific question on directly elected regional mayors, their rise, and the role that they play in democracy, which is so different to when the IPA was originally conceived. The Minister may not have an answer now, but a written answer would be very helpful.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am happy to acknowledge that the noble Lord is right: their powers have expanded, as have their influence and celebrity over the years. I do not have an answer now, but I will come back to the noble Lord on that.

The objective of these clauses is to provide greater resilience in the process. It is critical that we do not undermine this from the off. I therefore hope noble Lords feel reassured by the explanations given, and the information set out in the draft code of practice, which is the appropriate place to set out the detail of this alternative process.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I shall be brief. Just on the subject of suspicion, which I think I raised it, I was thinking—perhaps I did not articulate it well—that it was at the political-class level. It is not hard to construct a suspicious scenario where a Westminster-based Executive are hacking an Edinburgh-based politician—I am sure that suspicion would apply there. However, the noble Baroness is right about the public.

The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, is important, not because this sort of thing needs to go into primary legislation, but because his point around emphasising public understanding and support which has come out is really important. He picked out the fact that a number of officeholders have worked hard at generating a positive profile for the services, and for that they should be thanked and congratulated. I would add GCHQ, the public profile of which probably did not even exist a decade or so ago. I have several very sad friends who can hardly wait with excitement for the annual GCHQ quiz to arrive. Things like that essentially draw attention to the nature of the work that such organisations do. I laugh at those friends but then I cannot solve it and they can, so perhaps they are the winners there. Those sorts of things do not shed light and throw open the doors on the things the noble Baroness and others fear should not be public, but they create an ambience around those services which is important.

Nobody has mentioned the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, which I guess is exactly what he wanted, and I have nothing to add to them either.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the Committee very much indeed for the points raised in this short debate, which eloquently explained the fine balance that needs to be struck in this area. As this is the last group, I take this opportunity to thank all the men and women in all the security services, who do so much to keep us safe.

Investigatory Powers (Amendment) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Committee stage
Monday 11th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

That is exactly the case.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Sharpe of Epsom) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the contributions to this debate, which have been very interesting. I thank all noble Lords for the points raised. I shall do my very best to address all of them and apologise in advance for going into significant detail. I also thank everyone in the Committee for their broad support for the Bill.

I will start with the low/no privacy factors on bulk personal datasets, which I will henceforth call BPDs, and the various amendments relating to the test set out in Clause 2, to be applied when an intelligence service is considering whether a particular dataset is one that can be retained, or retained and examined, under new Section 226A in the new Part 7A. This test requires that regard must be had to all the circumstances, and that particular regard must be had to the factors set out in new subsection (3). The list of factors is not exhaustive and other factors may be considered, where relevant.

Schedule 10 to the Data Protection Act is related to Section 86 of that Act, which is concerned with sensitive processing of personal data by the intelligence services. Schedule 10 sets out a list of conditions which must be met for such processing to be lawful for the purposes of the Data Protection Act. There is a risk that applying these words here, in a different context and for a different purpose, may be seen to create a link, albeit fallacious, between the type of datasets that will be retained and examined under new Part 7A and sensitive processing under the Data Protection Act. For that reason, their inclusion here risks doing more harm than good, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, noted.

In any case, the safeguards in new Part 7A are already sufficient to ensure due regard for privacy. Every dataset proposed to be retained, or retained and examined, must be individually authorised. In addition to the test at new Section 226A, as new Section 226B makes clear, an individual authorisation may be granted only if it is both necessary and proportionate.

The factors have been chosen because they are most relevant to the context in which the test will be applied and have been drawn from existing case law. They provide a guide to the decision-maker in reaching a conclusion as to the nature of the dataset. Furthermore, a form of prior judicial approval will apply to all authorisations so that there is independent oversight of the conclusions reached.

Amendment 1, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, seeks to replace factor (b) with language drawn from Schedule 10 to the Data Protection Act 2018. Factor (b) is concerned with the extent to which an individual has made public the data in the dataset, or has consented to the data being made public. The Government do not consider the amendment necessary. I am sure the noble Lord’s aim is to improve the safeguards in the Bill, and he has drawn inspiration from existing precedent to do so in an effort to bring consistency across statute. However, the amendment fails to achieve that aim, and risks creating an unclear and unnecessary link between this Bill and the Data Protection Act, which I have already explained. I will return to the Data Protection Act in due course.

Amendment 2, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, probes the inclusion of factors (d) and (e), relating to publicly available datasets that are already widely known about or are already used in the public domain—for example, in data science or academia. As I mentioned, the test in new Section 226A is one in which

“regard must be had to all the circumstances”.

The removal of factors from new subsection (3) would not, therefore, fundamentally change the test; it would mean simply that the decision-maker would not be bound to have particular regard to the absent factors. This amendment would, in fact, result in less transparency in the considerations the intelligence services apply when assessing expectation of privacy in relation to Part 7A authorisations.

The Government consider it important that particular regard is had to these factors. I know that noble Lords particularly enjoy the example of the “Titanic” manifest. It is a useful example of where such factors would be relevant, as it is a dataset that is widely known about and widely used, and contains real data about real people who would, unfortunately, no longer have an expectation of privacy. I also point to the helpful example in the independent review by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson: the Enron corpus. This is a large dataset of emails that came into the public domain following the investigation into the collapse of the Enron Corporation. Although initially sensitive, the dataset has been available in various forms for almost 20 years and is widely used in data science. It is right that such datasets are in scope of the new regime.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, asked specifically about the extent to which these factors depart from existing privacy laws. The law concerning the reasonable expectation of privacy is likely to develop over time, and new Section 226A is intended to be sufficiently flexible to accommodate future changes. Rather than departing from the law, new Section 226A is intended to ensure that the intelligence services can continue to apply the law as it develops.

On Amendment 3, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, for tabling this helpful probing amendment. I am afraid the Government do not think it is necessary in order to achieve what we understand the intended effect of the amendment to be. The amendment does, however, provide an opportunity to better explain the difference between what the Bill calls “individual authorisations” and “category authorisations”. An individual authorisation will authorise the retention, or retention and examination, of a dataset under the new Part 7A being inserted into the Investigatory Powers Act—which I will henceforth refer to as the IPA—by this Bill.

All datasets that are to be retained under Part 7A must have an individual authorisation. Individual authorisations are subject to prior approval by a judicial commissioner unless the dataset described falls within an existing category. A category authorisation will not authorise the retention, or retention and examination, of a dataset. Instead, it is a mechanism through which a judicial commissioner’s permission may be sought in order to depart from the normal rule on prior approval, but only in respect of datasets that meet a particular description.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Fox (LD)]

If the Minister and indeed the noble Baroness had listened to what I said, they would know that I do not think it is forgettable; I just wanted the Minister to confirm that point.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Thank you; point taken.

Section 226D provides a mechanism to achieve what I understand the intent of the amendment to be. It is clear that remedial action must be taken if it is discovered that Section 226A does not apply or no longer applies to part of a dataset authorised under Part 7A. Anything in the process of being done must be stopped as soon as possible, and that part of the authorisation is treated as cancelled. The effect of that part of the authorisation being treated as cancelled is that the data to which it relates must be deleted unless there is some other lawful basis for its retention. It may well be that it is appropriate for the intelligence service to continue to retain the data. That is why subsection (3), in effect, puts that part of the dataset back into the decision-making machinery in Section 220 of Part 7 of the IPA—so that such a decision can be made. We provide a fuller explanation of that in the draft code of practice for Part 7A, at paragraphs 4.26 and 5.39.

In conclusion on this amendment, if the noble Lord is suggesting that any actionable intelligence that has been identified while the agency was operating on the basis of that retention and examination being lawful under Part 7A should not be acted on, I am afraid I must playfully suggest that it is he who ought to forget his amendment.

I turn now to the various amendments on reporting on BPDs, including several that seek to amend the provisions set out in Clause 2, under Section 226DA, which require the heads of the intelligence services to provide an annual report on Part 7A to the Secretary of State. The first amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Fox, Amendment 11, seeks to mandate that certain statistical information in a given year—specifically, the numbers of authorisations sought and granted—be provided to the relevant Secretary of State. This amendment is not necessary or appropriate. First, those Secretaries of State who are politically accountable for the intelligence services will have in place arrangements to that end and may demand of the relevant intelligence service any additional information he or she feels necessary. This may go beyond the level of detail the noble Lord has proposed be included in the annual report and may be more frequent. This is not a matter for the Bill, because the exact information the Secretary of State requires may evolve over time. Secondly, if this sort of specific reporting requirement is found to be necessary or desirable, it is more appropriate for inclusion in a code of practice, rather than being in the legislation. Indeed, the draft code of practice for Part 7A sets out some relevant details under paragraph 7.4.

I turn now to Amendments 10 and 12, proposed by the noble Lord, Lord West, and I take this opportunity to reassure him and the noble Lord, Lord Murphy. On behalf of the Security Minister, we thank them for their valuable work on the ISC and for the constructive engagement with the Bill Committee to date. I am pleased to see the noble Lord, Lord West, in his place today, and I am glad that he is on a more or less even keel.

The amendments the noble Lord has tabled would require the intelligence services to provide the same annual report that they provide to their Secretary of State, on the operation of Part 7A, to the ISC and the Investigatory Powers Commissioner. I do not believe that this additional requirement would provide the enhanced oversight of the regime that the amendments purport to provide. The annual reporting requirement is a formal statutory mechanism by means of which the Secretaries of State will receive information from the intelligence services about their use of Part 7A on an annual basis. This is a mechanism intended to ensure effective political oversight by the Secretary of State.

The ISC is a committee of Parliament. Oversight by the ISC is neither of the same nature as, nor a replacement for, the oversight of the Secretary of State. The ISC, as a committee of Parliament, already has a long-standing and well-established role in the oversight of the intelligence services to which these provisions will apply, and that role will continue here.

Sending the annual report to the Investigatory Powers Commissioner will not increase the level of independent oversight provided, for the following reasons. First, the Investigatory Powers Commissioner will be required to keep this new regime under review, as he does with the current Part 7 regime, and he will continue to report annually on his findings. Secondly, the information these amendments seek to include in the annual report is already information that the draft code of practice will require the intelligence services to keep, as is clear from paragraphs 7.1. and 7.2. The commissioner, and anyone acting on his behalf, has access to all locations, documentation and information systems as necessary to carry out a full and thorough inspection regime. The intelligence services are legally obliged to provide all necessary assistance to the commissioner, or anyone acting on his behalf, including by providing documents and information.

The noble Lords, Lord Fox, Lord Murphy and Lord West, asked about the continued engagement with the ISC. On both the policy proposals informing the Bill and the Bill itself, through a combination of ministerial, operational and official engagement, we have maintained continual engagement, which includes recent sessions with the Security Minister and the agency heads. As I said earlier, we are grateful to the committee for its engagement and scrutiny of the Bill. We will continue to involve it throughout the Bill’s passage, and I am more than happy to take the noble Lords’ comments back to the Home Office and make sure they are widely understood.

Amendment 13 would see the intelligence agencies notify the Investigatory Powers Commissioner every time an individual authorisation is granted in reliance on a category authorisation. I have already set out the distinct processes for individual and category authorisations under new Part 7A. As I set out earlier, categories will be authorised only with the prior approval of a judicial commissioner. IPCO inspectors will then be able to review the individual authorisation granted in reliance on a category authorisation during their regular inspections of the intelligence services throughout that time. Category authorisations will expire at 12 months and will then need to be renewed and that decision reapproved by a judicial commissioner.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Report stage
Tuesday 27th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I am pleased to support the amendment in the name of my noble friend. If I do not speak at length, it is not because I do not think it a very important amendment but because I am trying to infect the rest of the House with some brevity—unsuccessfully, I suspect. This is an important amendment and we have seen movement in other regimes. We have seen movement in the United States; we are seeing movement in the European Union; and I think we have seen movement in the House of Commons on the Procurement Bill, to which we have started to see changes in attitude. I hope we will hear from the Minister shortly that the Government are prepared to move, in order that we can bank a step in the right direction along this path. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say, and I hope this amendment will not have to be pressed if we hear what we want to hear.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, for this amendment, for his constructive engagement throughout the passage of the Bill through this House and, of course, for his typically thoughtful and powerful introduction. I also pay tribute to noble Lords from all sides of the House, and Members in the other place, for continuing to pursue this important issue and engage with the Government on a cross-party basis, not least the APPG on Anti-Corruption and Responsible Tax. I can reassure the noble Lord that the Government are supportive of mechanisms to deprive sanctioned individuals, where appropriate, of their assets, with a view to funding the recovery and reconstruction of Ukraine. More broadly, the Government want to drive further transparency on assets held by sanctioned persons in the UK.

On 19 June, the Government announced four new commitments which reaffirm that Russia must pay for the long-term reconstruction of Ukraine. This includes new legislation, laid the same day by the Foreign Secretary, to enable sanctions to remain in place until Russia pays compensation for damage caused. In this announcement the Government also confirmed that we will lay new legislation requiring persons and entities in the UK, or UK persons and entities overseas, who are designated under the Russia financial sanctions regime to disclose any assets they hold in the UK. The Government are firmly committed to bringing forward this secondary legislation, subject to the made affirmative procedure, and to introducing this measure before the end of 2023, subject to the usual parliamentary scheduling. This will strengthen transparency of assets and make it clear that the UK will not allow assets to be hidden in this country.

Sanctioned individuals who fail to disclose their assets could receive a financial penalty or have their assets confiscated. This demonstrates our continued commitment to penalising those who make deliberate attempts to conceal funds or economic resources. The new power builds on and strengthens the UK’s existing powers around transparency of designated persons’ assets. HMG already use the annual review of the Office of Financial Sanctions Implementation, known as OFSI, to collect and detail assets frozen under UK financial sanctions. Additionally, relevant firms such as banks, other financial institutions, law firms and estate agents have an ongoing obligation to report to OFSI if they know or reasonably suspect that a person is a designated person or has committed offences under financial sanctions regulations, where that information is received in the course of carrying on their business. Those firms must provide information about the nature and amount of any funds or economic resources held by them for the customer.

The designated person reporting measure will act as a dual verification tool by enabling the comparison of disclosures against existing reporting requirements that bite on relevant firms. This will tighten the net around those who are not reporting and are evading their reporting requirements.

On asset seizure, prosecutors and/or law enforcement agencies can currently apply to confiscate or permanently seize assets where someone has benefited from their offending, or the assets have links to criminality, by making use of powers under the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002. Importantly, the new measures will also give His Majesty’s Government the ability to impose fines. Overall, this designated person reporting measure will be focused on strengthening the UK’s compliance toolkit while giving options for penalising those who seek to hide their assets.

The noble Lord’s amendment includes a specific provision which would require the designated person also to report assets which were held six months prior to the designation. The Government are still fully developing the non-disclosure measure and I can assure the noble Lord that we are carefully considering this suggestion. Although not retrospective in terms of regulating or criminalising conduct that occurred before the measure came into force, requiring designated persons to provide a snapshot of their assets at a historical point in time is necessarily more onerous than a forward look requirement. The Government will need carefully to consider the design of the measure and the proportionality and additional value of so-called retrospective reporting to ensure that it is operationally deliverable and legally robust. This will include working with relevant law enforcement agencies to determine how such information would be used.

Before laying these regulations, the Government will complete their ongoing evaluation of possible operational or implementation challenges to help ensure the successful delivery of this measure. For example, investigating non-compliance will require significant resources from the enforcing agency. We want to ensure that it has all the capability, skills and resources to succeed.

I note the interest in and strength of feeling on this issue. The Government will continue to work collaboratively and constructively with interested parties in the lead-up to bringing forward the legislation, including on reporting assets which were held prior to a designation. We will continue to engage with the civil society organisations that have campaigned for this measure, and I would be happy to work with the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and other parliamentarians to keep them informed of progress ahead of it being formally introduced.

Again, I am grateful to the noble Lord for bringing this issue forward for debate and for the continued interest and engagement of many stakeholders. I hope that, given the reasons I have outlined and the action the Government are already taking, he will consider withdrawing his amendment.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Committee stage
Thursday 11th May 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, these government amendments concern commencement and cut across several clauses. Amendments 106F, 106H and 107A are consequential on the regulation-making powers introduced by the new clause headed, “Fraud offences: supplementary”, which is one of the Government’s new clauses introducing a failure to prevent fraud offence. Amendments 106G and 107B, and the proposed new clauses to be inserted by Amendments 109 and 110, replace Clause 191 with a new commencement clause and a separate transitional provision clause. The clauses are being separated into two to make the commencement provisions easier to follow and avoid having one long and complex commencement provision.

They include a number of small, technical changes to ensure that the commencement provisions in the Bill work as effectively as possible and bring the devolution aspects of the commencement powers into line with previous similar legislation. They also bring into force, on Royal Assent, procedures in the Bill about the codes of practice which will govern the strengthened information order powers. This will ensure that those powers can quickly start to be used. Certain money laundering reporting measures are also being commenced on Royal Assent: the exemption for “exiting and paying away” and the new defence against failure to report, which we debated earlier in Committee. That will give certainty to businesses about their reporting duties as soon as the Bill is passed.

I hope noble Lords will support these amendments. I beg to move.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I will speak very briefly—I am sure the Minister will be glad to know that. I am intrigued by Amendment 109 because it complicates the process of bringing the Bill into being quite a lot. There are a lot of moving parts set out in Amendments 109 and 110 for the Bill to start to be effective. The simple question is: from start to finish—from Royal Assent to when everything is working and all parts are moving—what is the Government’s estimate as to long it will take to fulfil all the steps set out in these amendments?

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Committee stage
Tuesday 9th May 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Fox (LD)]

The Minister set out some interesting statistics. It is clear that UWOs have been accountable for a very small proportion of the total amount of money recovered. The Minister referred to them as a powerful tool. Is he satisfied that UWOs are reaching their potential, in which case we would conclude that they are relatively insignificant compared to the other tools in the hands of enforcement, or are UWOs failing to meet their potential and not as powerful as they could be? Clearly, they are not generating very much money compared to all the other tools available to the enforcement agencies.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am not sure that the question is entirely valid with regard to generating money. The fact is that, since their introduction in 2017, four of these have been issued in relation to assets with a combined value of £143 million. In October 2020, property worth an estimated £10 million was recovered, following the use of a UWO, as I have already said. As for whether the scheme is succeeding or failing, it is not for me to say. I am unable to do so, because I do not have access to the operational decision-making that goes into issuing them, and so on. These are operational matters.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

I accept that it is not for the Minister to say; who does say whether they are succeeding or failing?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I have already said that we will publish a number of reports on this on 1 September, so I would hope for some more clarity then, but I shall endeavour to find out more information and report back to the noble Lord.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I would say that it is the same thing; perhaps we can debate that as well.

The Serious Fraud Office investigates and prosecutes the most complex cases of fraud, bribery and corruption. That is a very challenging remit. It has delivered some outstanding outcomes. For example, last year, it secured the conviction of Glencore for bribery and corruption in five countries, with the company ordered to pay £280 million—the highest ever ordered in a corporate criminal conviction in the UK—as well as eight convictions for five cases of fraud and bribery worth more than £500 million. It consistently recovers some of the largest amounts of proceeds of crime, despite being a fraction of the size of many other national agencies.

It is also important to note the SFO’s role in fighting economic crime globally. In the last financial year, the SFO took steps to assist overseas jurisdictions in their investigations by working on more than 60 incoming money-laundering requests. I think that the statistics answer the question—yes, we have faith, and yes, it is working. I hope that my explanations have provided some reassurance. I therefore ask the noble Lord not to press his amendment.

I turn to the final amendment in this group, Amendment 106EA, again tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker. I come to this amendment last as it seeks to bring into one amendment much of what the other amendments in this group also attempt. I will not repeat myself too much here, especially considering how long I have gone on so far. The amendment would require the Government to issue a report on the performance of agencies and departments in tackling economic crime. However, I can assure noble Lords that this is already being done. As I have mentioned, the Government, regulators and law enforcement already regularly give evidence to parliamentary committees. The National Crime Agency is required under the Crime and Courts Act to publish an annual report and lay it before Parliament, further adding to the available scrutiny of operational bodies. The Government already conduct a range of threat and risk assessments to develop our understanding of economic crime. The NCA’s national strategic assessment assesses the economic crime threats facing the UK on an annual basis. As required under the money-laundering regulations, the UK also conducts periodic national risk assessments of money laundering and terrorist financing, which provide an overview of the risks and likelihood of an activity occurring. We have already discussed in detail the establishment of a fund to tackle economic crime so I will not repeat that debate again.

Regarding the amendment’s calls for a strategy on tackling economic crime, this March, the Government published Economic Crime Plan 2. Through 43 actions, it sets out how the public and private sectors will work together to transform the UK’s response to economic crime. Obviously, the fraud strategy is a part of that overarching economic crime strategy.

As regards the quality of the data in the fraud strategy, which was referenced by the noble Lord, Lord Browne, I have just had a quick flick through and it is more recent than six years. I should also reassure the noble Lord that one of the commitments in the fraud strategy is to improve the quality and collection of data, so this can be regarded as a baseline.

There are numerous ways in which the Government report on their performance with regard to tackling economic crime. This amendment is duplicative of them and therefore unnecessary. I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, we are indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, for his amendments because they have inspired an interesting debate. The Minister has made a spirited defence of the Government’s position on this issue, but the very fact that these questions are being asked—and by a lot of people, not just the people in this Room—indicates that there is a lot of work for the Government to do in order to placate, explain or perhaps improve what is going on out there. The key element, which was highlighted earlier, is the alphabet soup of different agencies all interlinking in what is going on. The Minister has made a big effort in trying to calm nerves but I do not think that those nerves are calmed. Although the amendments will undoubtedly be not be moved, there is work to do; hopefully, the Minister has got that message from the nature of this debate.

I refer back to Amendment 102. Clearly, it ruffled some feathers. I note that in 2022 it was the Conservative Government who saw fit to withdraw this scheme because they felt that there were serious issues. We know that of the 6,000 such issues, a minority were problematic, but we still do not know exactly how many. I want to address the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Leigh that there is some use to encourage inward investment. This scheme clearly went off the rails, but by publishing the report properly, we would know how to encourage it without causing the issues that the Government clearly felt were sufficient to close the scheme. I am comfortable that I was not overstating the problem. The problem was there and the Government identified it, but now we have an issue in that we do not know the full scope of the problem.

In his response on party finance, the Minister referred to national security. The fact that there are issues is well covered. The Minister should know—I am sure that he does—that amendments to the National Security Bill that sought to enhance the scrutiny of the source of political donations have been thrown out by the Commons, so some of the things that the Minister said are not strictly there. There is still an issue between this House and the Commons when it comes to the National Security Bill and party funding, and it remains ongoing. I think that was the issue that my noble friend was anxious to state.

On the subject of the report and the reference to party funding, I remind noble Lords that I said that it makes it difficult not to conclude that there are embarrassing issues to hide because the report was not published. If there is no problem, as I am sure noble Lords believe, there is no reason not to publish the report. It is the non-publishing of the report that causes suspicion. That is the point that I was trying to make.

With that, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 102.

Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Committee stage
Thursday 27th April 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that information; I will come back on that.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

Will the Minister go and count them again?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Absolutely; I shall get my abacus out. I turn to Amendment 101 on senior managers’ liability for failing to prevent economic crime, also tabled by my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier.

I agree that it is important that individuals, particularly the most senior ones, do not go unpunished for their involvement in committing economic crimes. Prosecutors already have a range of powers at their disposal to pursue decision-makers who enable or commit criminal offences in a corporate setting. This includes the power to prosecute individuals for substantive offending. For example, last year an individual was jailed for 12 years following a Serious Fraud Office investigation into a £226 million fraud.

Additional powers also exist which enable senior managers and directors to be prosecuted where they consent or connive in fraud, theft, money laundering or bribery. A director or manager who is convicted on the basis of their consent, connivance or neglect can be dealt with accordingly by the courts, including being sentenced to imprisonment. Also, under the Serious Crime Act 2007, a person, including a senior manager, is liable for encouraging or assisting the commission of a criminal offence. That includes fraud, false accounting or money laundering—the offences captured by the amendment tabled by my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier. The individual found to be encouraging or assisting the commission of the offence can be prosecuted in the same way as if they commit the offence itself.

This amendment seeks to extend liability for senior managers on a lower basis for culpability than is normally provided for. It would allow a senior manager who takes a decision to be imprisoned for taking that decision, even if the offence is the action of a rogue employee. That would place a disproportionate burden on corporations and their senior management, which is likely to deter legitimate business from seeing the UK as a fair and safe place to conduct business. This amendment is therefore not appropriate.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, asked about extraterritoriality. Our approach is focused on cutting crime in the UK and protecting UK victims. As he noted, the powers have sufficient extraterritorial extent to do this, even if the perpetrators or the organisation is based outside the UK. Other countries can take steps to prosecute fraud under their own law. As for the precise mechanics of how it would work, it would be on a case-by-case basis, so it is pointless to speculate.

The noble Lord also asked for more detail about guidance. As he knows, we intend to publish guidance setting out reasonable prevention procedures before the offence of failure to prevent fraud comes into force. It will give organisations clarity about what they need to do. It is important that we engage and consult the right stakeholders in this process and that we engage further with the organisations this will impact. Once the Bill has received Royal Assent, we will start engaging with law enforcement, prosecutors, relevant government departments, public sector organisations, trade associations for businesses, other organisations in scope and other experts to draft the guidance.

We anticipate that the guidance will follow similar themes to those seen in many regulatory regimes—albeit that in this case they are not requirements—and to guidance for existing failure to prevent offences. This includes regular risk assessments to establish the level and type of fraud risks to be addressed; establishing fraud controls and due diligence processes designed to prevent fraud or spot it in the early stages before the offence is carried out; leadership and training to ensure that employees implement controls and create a culture within the organisation that does not accept fraudulent practices as a route to boosting performance and profits; and monitoring and review to ensure that procedures remain effective. I am happy to hold further discussions on this subject at the noble Lord’s convenience.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

Yes, I am happy to give that reassurance.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, I think I was right at the very beginning not to speak for long on this set of amendments. Your Lordships filled in for me very adequately and expertly.

The Minister came back with a couple of points that I want to refer to. He explained that aspects of the amendments from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Garnier, were not necessary because there would be duplication. It would be helpful for us to understand that duplication. Perhaps between now and Report he could provide a list of all the prosecutions that have happened with the existing legislation, proving that the new legislation would not be necessary, so that we can understand that his point is correct.

He also talked about the chilling effect on small companies. This legislation is designed to chill fraud. Taking up the challenge set by the noble Lord, Lord Leigh, about his perfectly innocent sweet shop, legislation that excludes that sweet shop will also exclude all the other small companies that are perpetrating fraud. The skill is in the proportionate application of this legislation. To pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, it is also about the proportionate advice that is being given. Not all companies are getting the same level of advice on how they should approach this legislation. There is no one-size-fits-all approach, as my noble friend Lady Bowles said.

Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Wednesday 29th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

Incredibly briefly, I will speak to Amendment 46, which I have signed. The Government’s aim, Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition’s aim, and our aim is to speed up the rollout of infrastructure. This amendment as crafted by the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, and the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, which I was pleased to sign, is a very simple measure to help in that objective. If the Government have not already thought of it, they should embrace it. Whether it requires primary legislation or otherwise, an undertaking from the Dispatch Box that this will be done would be a very good way of speeding up infrastructure implementation.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, this was a brief debate. I turn first to Amendment 43. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and the noble Baroness, Lady Merron, for raising this important subject.

The Government are committed to delivering policy which helps rollout for everyone, and support the entire telecommunications sector in delivering connectivity. Ensuring that local authorities are ready to facilitate rollout as quickly as possible is a key part of this. It will benefit people across the UK in receiving the best possible service and ensure that all operators are able to compete to provide that service.

Local authorities should have autonomy to serve their communities in the way that they see fit. The difficulties faced by urban communities are likely to be very different from those faced in the highlands, for example. The Government believe that local authorities are best placed to decide how to lead and foster digital rollout in their local area.

Mandating local authorities to designate a particular officer responsible for digital connectivity would be too prescriptive. However, we recognise the considerable benefits of having a dedicated lead on digital infrastructure in local and regional authorities, which is why we strongly recommend this approach in our digital connectivity portal, DCMS’s official guidance for local authorities concerning connectivity. The portal provides a huge amount of practical information for local authorities—for instance, on debunking myths around 5G, making assets available for hosting equipment, and the application of the Electronic Communications Code and planning regulations. The digital connectivity portal is a vital enabler for local authorities to facilitate digital infrastructure deployment.

In May last year, the then Minister for Digital Infrastructure also wrote to all chief executives of local authorities to encourage them to appoint a digital champion and to engage with DCMS. I understand that as many as 80 authorities have responded and officials have been able to offer support to them. We have also provided £4 million of funding for the Digital Connectivity Infrastructure Accelerator programme, designed to foster increased collaboration between local authorities and the telecommunications industry. Local authorities can take advantage of these tools and funds to take the steps most appropriate in their area to encourage and facilitate rollout. I hope that gives reassurance on how seriously the Government take local authority engagement, and that the amendments will not be pressed.

If I might anticipate a possible comeback, it sounds like we very much agree with the noble Lord, so to be consistent about my inconsistency, we are not going further and mandating this because the Government seek to balance the national objective of accelerating digital infrastructure rollout with the need to allow local authorities to make the best choices for their communities. Each local authority will have a different approach to its specific local challenges. We feel that further imposition of rules from central government in these spaces risks disrupting environments that are already encouraging investment in infrastructure rollout.

Amendment 46 asks whether the Government intend to introduce a streamlined subsidy scheme for telecommunications infrastructure to reduce administrative burdens on public authorities. To provide some context, the new Subsidy Control Act, which has not yet fully come into force, gives the Government the ability to create streamlined subsidy schemes for all public authorities to use. The streamlined schemes are intended to provide a way of granting subsidies quickly, with little administrative burden, while also providing legal certainty to both the public authority awarding the subsidy and the beneficiary of the subsidy. The Government intend that these should facilitate the award of low-risk and uncontentious subsidies in areas of policy that are strategically important to the United Kingdom. Streamlined subsidy schemes will be considered for categories of subsidy where they will add clarity for public authorities and make the assessment of compliance simpler.

Although the Government currently have no plans to create a streamlined subsidy scheme for the installation of telecommunications infrastructure, we remain committed to delivering and supporting the rollout of such infrastructure as soon as possible. BDUK’s Project Gigabit is delivering gigabit-capable broadband across the UK, working closely with public authorities, including the devolved Administrations and local authorities, to help refine procurement boundaries, validate the market’s local investment plans and stimulate demand for gigabit vouchers.

The work we have undertaken so far has shown that the model is effective at responding to changing market conditions by refining or combining procurement boundaries to reach efficient scale and secure value for money for public subsidy. DCMS will continue to engage and consider how to support public authorities as best as possible to reduce administrative burdens, including on any considerations on subsidy control or future streamlined subsidy schemes.

I hope that explains why the Government consider that a streamlined subsidy scheme for telecoms infrastructure is not needed at this time. However, this will be kept under review. I ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.

Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Bill

Debate between Lord Fox and Lord Sharpe of Epsom

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Wednesday 29th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Fox (LD)]

My Lords, even more briefly, the Minister said in responding to the last group that the Government are clear that the cost of rent is too high and the purpose is to drive it down. In different comments, he stated that he felt these costs will eventually find their way to the consumer—I doubt that, but time will tell. What is the purpose of the retrospectivity and who will benefit? When will I receive my refund on my mobile phone bill for the retrospective repayment of this money? The answer is that I will not, so who will benefit from this and why are the Government causing it to happen?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords who have spoken to this group, which concerns both compensation and backdated payment. I shall start with the former. One of the main aims of the Bill is to ensure that where an agreement to which the code applies is renewed, there is a consistent approach in calculating the financial aspects and terms of that agreement.

Before I get on to the details, I will answer my noble friend Lady McIntosh, who strayed back into the general valuation principles. I note that my noble friend Lord Parkinson has committed to see what else can be distributed in terms of the evidence that she seeks. I reassure her that we have had extensive engagement with the NFU, but I will write to her with details of that.

The last group dealt with how Clause 61 does what I have just described in England and Wales, through changes to the 1954 Act that replicate the code valuation regime. This means that, when agreements are renewed under the 1954 Act, the new rent will be calculated in the same way as agreements renewed under the code. However, the 1954 Act deals solely with the rent that a landowner should receive from an operator. Under the code, this is not the only sum landowners can receive. The code also allows landowners to receive compensation from an operator. This compensation stands separately to the “rent” or consideration payable, and should cover any loss or damage resulting from the code operator exercising the rights that have been agreed or imposed.

There is no equivalent right to recover compensation within the 1954 Act. Clause 63 therefore inserts provisions into the 1954 Act that reflect the code provisions on compensation. This clause ensures that the amounts that landowners receive in compensation will be calculated in the same way, regardless of which statutory renewal mechanism is used and where in the UK that agreement was entered. Although the compensation provisions we are introducing will directly apply only if a renewal agreement is imposed by the court, it is inevitable that consensual negotiations can—and should—be influenced by the terms that might be imposed in those circumstances. This will influence consensual negotiations for agreements regulated under the 1954 Act, through which the parties can make adequate provision for compensation.

It was always the policy intention that the compensation provisions in the code should inform consensual negotiations for compensation in this way, and the same principle should apply to compensation provisions for the 1954 Act. We therefore want Clause 63 to stand part of the Bill.

Before I get on to the various amendments, I should say that the noble Earl, Lord Devon, referred to case law, on which I will expand a little. The courts have dealt with various points in connection with the Electronic Communications Code and the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954 and the matters we are discussing, and I do not think it would be necessarily helpful to discuss them in detail. We are happy to write to noble Lords or arrange a meeting if there are particular matters relating to case law that they would find useful to discuss, including in respect of the key judgment that was recently handed down by the Supreme Court, which is being considered carefully by department officials and legal advisers at the moment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I am afraid that the answer to both of those questions is that I do not know. It would be remiss of me to anticipate the sorts of concerns we are listening to and the subjects they may raise. I will have to write to the noble Lord on that.

[Lord Fox (LD)]

Sorry to labour the point, but the Minister just introduced the concept of transitional provisions. Where are these transitional provisions made clear? How will we know what they are going to be? Where will they be planned? Are they coming through by statutory instrument, or are they just going to be sprung on us by the department?

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I read my brief very carefully, and I said “any transitional provisions in respect of the Bill”—I did not say that there will be transitional provisions—after listening to the various concerns I just outlined.

I now turn to Amendment 34 tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Fox, the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Merron. This is an amendment to the 1954 Act which seeks to prevent interim rent being backdated where an agreement is renewed under that statute. As we have discussed when talking about Clauses 61 and 62, it is the Government’s intention that the various statutory mechanisms for the renewal of agreements to which the code applies is as consistent as possible, and this amendment would increase inconsistency.

First, the amendment would create inconsistency within the 1954 Act itself. The ability to seek backdated payments of interim rent would be prevented only where the site provider had given notice to the operator under Section 25 of the Act. Where an operator had served notice under Section 26 of the Act, the ability to seek backdated rental payments would remain. Secondly, it would create inconsistency between the 1954 Act and the code. Clause 67 will allow payment of a modified rate of consideration to be backdated to the date of the application, whereas I understand that the noble Lords’ intention is to prevent rent from being payable at the backdated interim rent rate. It is difficult to justify such inconsistency.

Finally, the ability to seek an interim rent which is backdated is not a new concept. The parties would have been aware of this when entering into those agreements to which the 1954 Act applies. There is always a risk that the market will have adversely changed between the date on which the agreement was entered into and the time when the agreement is ready for renewal, and that the interim rent will be less than the amount currently paid. I appreciate that this may be exacerbated by the imposition of the code valuation framework on these agreements, but the Government will look at this impact when drafting any transitional provisions.

Absolutely finally, the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, about picking and choosing, was covered by my noble friend Lord Parkinson on the first day of Committee in relation to Amendment 17, but if there are any outstanding questions on that, we would be very happy to discuss them separately. In answer to the question from the noble Earl, Lord Devon, about general valuations, my noble friend will deal with that in the next group. Under the circumstances, I hope that noble Lords will not press their amendments.