Rule of Law: Law Officers

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Tuesday 15th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, I would offer absolute reassurance with respect to the points that have been raised. First, there seems to be a common misconception that somehow we could unilaterally alter the treaty provisions. That is simply not possible and is not being attempted. What we are addressing are circumstances in which, in the face of a material breach or fundamental changes in our obligations due to the conduct of the other party, we need to take preventive measures to maintain the paramount intent of the Northern Ireland protocol, which is the integrity of the Belfast agreement.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, the Minister has a very distinguished record in the Scots and English Bar. Does he not find it demeaning to stand up and give this lame political justification for what distinguished lawyers outside Parliament consider to be a breach of the law? How can he justify continuing as a law officer, given that situation?

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, I am not seeking to give a political justification for anything; I am providing a legal justification for saying that the UKIM Bill falls within the boundaries of international law, within the boundaries of our treaty obligations and within the boundaries of the rule of law.

Private International Law (Implementation of Agreements) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 13th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

I had not intended to intervene at this stage. However, since this, is or ought to be, very similar to Committee if we were sitting in the Chamber, I hope that Members will understand why I do so. It is not to deal with questions that the Minister raised about Crown dependencies and overseas territories—although he answered the question that I had intended to ask later on, on other amendments, so that will shorten the debate later—nor indeed about the different jurisdictions within the United Kingdom. Again, that will be dealt with in subsequent amendments and I can come back to that during that debate.

I want to say two things. First, I agree totally with what my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer said; that will surprise neither him nor the Minister. Secondly, the noble Lords, Lord Adonis and Lord Pannick, made important points, which the Minister just touched on. As the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said, we should note the significance of this being the first Committee stage of a Bill that we have held virtually. It is very important that we see that it operates properly.

As it happens, two members of the Procedure Committee are in this debate: the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, and me. At the committee’s last meeting, we asked for a report on the workings of this Committee stage—that is, how it will proceed. At its next meeting, the committee will discuss the procedure for virtual voting. If my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer hopes to divide the House on Report, as he indicated—I hope that he will—that cannot be done without virtual voting. It would be improper and unconstitutional for that to take place. My noble friend Lord Adonis should be reassured by that.

Finally, I hope that the Minister will treat this Committee stage just as he treats Committee stages on the Floor of the House—that is, take account of what has been said, be prepared for a challenge on these issues on Report and bear all this is mind before bringing the Bill in its present form back on Report. I hope he takes note of that.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I of course am listening to the contributions made to the debate in Committee and will take account of the observations that have been made. I make no comment on the procedural issues that the noble Lord raised.

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[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, for tabling what he very candidly pointed out were probing amendments. I am also obliged to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, who drew on his experience of the devolved Administrations and was able to outline the position in this matter. I will come in a moment to address the questions raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, in the context of these provisions.

As the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, pointed out, two authorities are identified in this part of the Bill that might proceed to implement matters of private international law in Scotland. That is consistent with legislation in other areas. The Secretary of State might decide, with the consent of the Scottish Ministers, to make UK-wide provision for implementation. That is why he is one of the identified national authorities, because there are circumstances in which the Scottish Ministers would be entirely content for there to be UK-wide provision.

Alternatively, if that is not the case, Scottish Ministers may themselves then proceed as a national authority to implement the matter in domestic law. That is because, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, pointed out, the position is that—I am sorry, something came up on another phone and rather distracted me—the implementation of private international law is a devolved issue under the Scotland Act, so allowance is made for both provisions.

As regards this Bill, an LCM was discussed between officials. The Scottish Ministers have recommended that such an LCM should be provided, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, pointed out the terms of the recommendation that Scottish Ministers have made to the Scottish Parliament with regard to this matter. Indeed, there was prior discussion about these proposals last year, when the Lord Chancellor, for example, was in communication with the Scottish Government on matters of the convention. Perhaps I can clarify this by reference to the points made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. The Secretary of State may be a national authority with the consent of Scottish Ministers because Scottish Ministers may, as sometimes happens, wish to see UK-wide regulations made here for implementation. Alternatively, as the national authority, they may choose to do that for themselves. The Secretary of State clearly does have the power to do that because under the Scotland Act there is the power to legislate for the entirety of the United Kingdom as regards the implementation of a matter that is otherwise within the devolved competences, so that does not raise an issue either.

With regard to the matter of whether or when it would be one national authority or the other, that is simply a matter that will be discussed, as it is in other contexts, between the United Kingdom Government and Scottish Ministers. If Scottish Ministers are content that the UK Government should legislate UK-wide on this matter, that will happen. If they are content for that to be done, then Scottish Ministers will deal with the matter. The Secretary of State cannot deal with the matter without the consent of Scottish Ministers, so I hope that that puts minds at rest in this regard.

As regards the identification of the Secretary of State as an authority and the reference, for example, in the Scotland Act to a Minister of the Crown, I accept that the reference in this Bill is more limited. Because I cannot answer immediately, I will consider why it was thought appropriate to limit it to the Secretary of State as opposed to the wider reference to a Minister of the Crown. But I will look at that to see whether there is an issue there that needs to be addressed.

As regards consultation on the implementation of international treaties, that is not an issue, but as regards entering into international treaties, that is of course a reserved matter. I recognise that it is appropriate that Scottish Ministers and others should be consulted on these matters for their interests when they arise. I do not understand that to be a difficulty in this context, nor a matter that would require express provisions in the terms of this Bill.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, for his probing amendment and I hope that I have been able to put minds at rest as regards why there are two identified national authorities for the purposes of Clause 2. In the event that Clause 2 stands, these are appropriate alternative mechanisms for the implementation of these provisions.

One final matter raised by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, was the issue of contract, but of course, where you have a contract, it will have a choice of jurisdiction and a choice of law. If the contract has Scotland as a choice of jurisdiction and Scots law as the choice of law, that will be binding if we have a situation in which, for instance, the Lugano provision applies. I hope that that answers the query in so far as I have understood it.

I cannot give a precise date for the provision of the LCM, but as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, himself indicated, Scottish Ministers have recommended the granting of an LCM, and it is not anticipated that there will be any difficulty. With that, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords—

Vagrancy Act 1824

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 23rd April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

Can the Minister confirm that the provisions of this ancient Act as they apply to Scotland were repealed in Westminster by the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982? The kind of things he has talked about, such as persistent or aggressive begging, are being dealt with in Scotland using other legal provisions. Why cannot that be done in England, and why cannot the Government move quickly to bring England and Wales in line with the excellent situation in Scotland?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, the provisions of Section 4, but not Section 3, of the Vagrancy Act 1824 were extended to Scotland by Section 15 of the Prevention of Crimes Act 1871. Section 4 was of course concerned with rough sleeping and Section 3 with begging. The noble Lord is quite right that the extension of Section 4 to Scotland was repealed by the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982. It should be noted that Part 4 of the 1982 Act brought in a series of very specific offences of what was termed

“annoying, offensive, obstructive or dangerous behaviour”—

essentially public order offences. In that regard, the law was brought up to date in Scotland. Indeed, it has been amended in England as well in some instances, for example by virtue of the Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014.

Serco

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 4th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I entirely concur with the observations of my noble and learned friend. The underlying purpose of deferred prosecution agreements is as he has set out, and the consequences are as he has referred to. It would have been wholly inappropriate to see the jobs of many employees put in jeopardy because of the nefarious activities of some in management, who have now been removed.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, with the Carillion scandal, the Capita scandal and the Serco scandal, do the Government not see a pattern? Will they not learn a lesson and realise that these services—particularly in the NHS—are better in public ownership?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, there is no pattern indicated by the parties to which the noble Lord referred.

Services of Lawyers and Lawyer’s Practice (Revocation etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Tuesday 15th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

Clearly, over time we will address the ability of the United Kingdom to agree with the EU the possibility of reciprocal rights for United Kingdom lawyers in Europe, but it is not something that we can dictate by our legislation. What we can do, however, is facilitate the position of EU-registered lawyers who are already in the United Kingdom and contributing to the legal services in the United Kingdom so that they can be secure in the knowledge of what their position will be in the event that we exit without any agreed deal.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

The Minister may have said this before I came in. I apologise: I was held up at a meeting outside. He mentions the United Kingdom, but paragraph 2.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum says:

“The purpose of this instrument is to end the preferential practising rights of EU and EFTA lawyers in England and Wales and Northern Ireland”.


What is the position in relation to Scotland?

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[Lord Keen of Elie]

The noble Lord is quite right: he was not here when I began. I said that with regard to Scotland, this is a devolved issue and the Scottish Government are addressing that matter. However, in taking forward negotiations with regard to reciprocal rights in the future, we would have in mind the interests of all lawyers within the United Kingdom, wherever they qualified. But for the purposes of determining the rights of registered European lawyers in the United Kingdom, we will deal with it by way of this instrument for England and Wales and for Northern Ireland, and the Scottish Government are undertaking to address it in the context of that jurisdiction. That is where we stand. As the noble Lord is aware, this is a devolved competence.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

The Minister has been particularly helpful in relation to that. I know that he knows Scots law very well, as do a number of other noble Members present. What is the current state of play in relation to this being dealt with in the Scottish Parliament? Is it running parallel with us? Is it ahead of us? Is it behind us? Will it be able to get it done in time? I know they are not very keen on no deal—in fact, they are not very keen on coming out of Europe at all—in the Scottish Parliament so I wondered what the state of play was in relation to dealing with this in the Scottish Parliament.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

In relation to this particular instrument, I am not in a position to say where the Scottish Government are in processing such a proposal. That is a matter for them and it is not a matter that they would, as a matter of course, disclose to me. But, as I say, I have confidence that they are aware of the issue and they have decided that they will take it forward. If they had wanted to utilise the provisions of the Scotland Act to have the UK Parliament legislate for them in regard to this matter, they would of course have said so. The very fact that they have not is indicative that they are making progress to legislate for this on their own behalf. That is where we stand.

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[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I shall begin with the observation from the noble Lord, Lord Beith, because I omitted to identify the location of the suicide pill. I am advised that the intention is that, in the event of an agreement, it will be incorporated in the withdrawal agreement Bill, and that is the mechanism that it intend to employ’s for those purposes. I apologise for not having appreciated that when the question was first raised.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Will that apply to all several hundred SIs? Will they all be incorporated in the withdrawal agreement Bill?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My understanding is that that is the mechanism that will be employed.

A number of noble Lords raised the question about the access of UK lawyers to the EU 27 and EFTA. That is not the purpose of this instrument, but I do not wish to ignore it. Clearly, we would like to see a withdrawal agreement that leads on, pursuant to that, to negotiations that can ensure that we have as wide a form of access to the EU 27 and EFTA countries for legal services, like other services.

The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, made a number of perfectly good and valid points about where we are without a deal and the impact it will have upon the provision of legal services. This is a matter over which I have been in discourse with the legal profession for the past two years, and I have visited with a number of firms in jurisdictions outside the United Kingdom to discuss with them where they stand with regard to these matters, in particular in Paris. Of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has observed, this is not for the larger firms. It tends to be the very large firms—generally City-based—who are engaged in practice outside the United Kingdom, particularly in Europe.

The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, asked about small firms and the impact on them. To a very large extent, it is the City firms who are employing European lawyers for a particular form of expertise. One has to bear in mind that small firms do not tend to have non-UK qualified European lawyers practising.

It is perhaps worth noticing—lawyers will appreciate this, but others may not—that, in England and Wales any natural person may deliver legal services for pay, except in the defined, reserved areas, of which there are six. They cannot call themselves solicitors or barristers, but they are only prohibited from practising in the reserved areas, unless they are subject to appropriate regulation. In the event, EU lawyers who have not requalified—and I will come back to this point—tend only to be here in order to show expertise within the law of their own particular jurisdiction. To try to put it in context, this applies not only to EU lawyers but also, for example, to American lawyers, so that, when they are doing international transactions they have available to them expertise in another jurisdiction’s law.

In addition, we have to bear in mind the mutual recognition of professional qualifications. After three years in the United Kingdom, an EU lawyer is in a position to apply to become a lawyer under the host state’s regulation—in other words, a solicitor or barrister. Generally speaking—and this is a point emphasised in the Bar’s briefing—those who intend to be engaged in reserved matters will take that qualification. That is why, when engaging with the profession on this matter, we have allowed for a transition period so that, by 2020, people who are intent on remaining in the United Kingdom to practise in reserved areas will have had the opportunity to move over under the three-year rule in order to have the host qualification to continue. The Bar’s briefing said that, in the experience of the Bar Council, most EU practitioners who are interested in delivering reserved legal activities, obtain one of the home titles in order to be more successful in our legal market. I hope that addresses this point.

On the issue of consultation and negotiation, the question of professional legal qualifications was raised with the EU at a very early stage on the basis that it was an adjunct to citizen rights. At that stage, the EU was not prepared to negotiate on that issue as distinct from what they regarded as citizen rights. It was, therefore, not taken forward in the context of the withdrawal agreement. In the context of the political declaration, it is directed principally to goods, although others elsewhere will discuss the distinction between goods and services. At the present time, it is our present intention to engage, if we have an agreement with the EU, on the question of reciprocity and recognition going forward. We understand the importance of this.

I might add that we have discussed the matter with those firms that generally operate in the EU and outside the United Kingdom. They have been aware of these issues for some time and very many of the lawyers whom they engage in their offices—for example in Paris and Hamburg—are now locally qualified or are qualified nationals of the host state. That is the way in which these practices are carried on.

I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, that some restructuring has been required to allow for this, and that has to be accepted. It is restructuring that would not otherwise have been engaged in, but these firms have undertaken it in preparation for the possibility of a no-deal Brexit. However, these tend to be the major City firms. You do not get the high street conveyancing lawyer trying to open offices in Paris—if they do, I suspect it is not terribly successful.

I recognise the development of courts in other jurisdictions and, in particular, the point made with regard to potential developments in Ireland. I am well aware of many of my fellow barristers who have checked their ancestry just to ensure that they can secure an Irish passport. Lacking that, they have sought to secure a place at the Bar of Ireland. It may be apocryphal, but I understand that the fee for registration as a solicitor in Dublin went up rapidly from €300 to about €3,000. I may be doing the solicitors’ branch of the profession a disservice in relying on that story, but these developments are taking place. Let us remember that, at the level of international litigation, the real competitors are Singapore, Hong Kong and New York, which are all places outwith the EU, albeit that there are specialist centres—Stockholm being one, in the context of shipping and arbitration; and Hamburg being another. We recognise that as well.

I come back to the instrument itself. We are required to pass it because, otherwise, we will be in breach of our international law obligations under the WTO and, in particular, the GATTs. So it is necessary for this purpose. I hope that it will not be required. I express this view without qualification. It is only appropriate and sensible that the Government make provision for what could be an eventuality. I am not going to revisit ground that the House has already covered in the context of earlier statutory instruments which were before it. I hope that it will not be required, but it is only proper and appropriate that we should engage with the profession in order to ensure that we are prepared for any foreseeable eventuality, however unpleasant and unrewarding it may be. I beg to move.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Tuesday 11th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I commend the noble Lord upon his exercise in statutory interpretation, which would undoubtedly attract an A-. The position at present is that in keeping with the spirit of the Act the Government will ensure that the matter is brought back to the Commons before 21 January.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, we are all obliged to the Minister for his explanation. Will he now confirm that what the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, has been saying again and again has now been confirmed by the European Court of Justice, that we can unilaterally agree to withdraw our Article 50 withdrawal and remain part of the European Union now that we know the consequences of leaving? Is that not something that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, has said on a number of occasions would be the sensible thing for Parliament to do and get on with running this country?

Prisons: Women

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Tuesday 3rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I am confident that the sentencing guidelines, and judicial guidelines in general, are sufficient to inform all levels of the judiciary as to the appropriate way in which to treat sentencing provision. Indeed, there is further guidance on this in England and Wales, which the noble Lord at the back may not be familiar with.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

The right reverend Prelate is also shaking her head.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

Looking in this direction, I can only see the noble Lord’s head shaking. However, it might not be in disagreement; maybe it is an affliction, and I apologise. With regard to sentencing, there are clear guidelines, which include guidelines from the Court of Appeal over sentencing where there is an impact on children and other dependants.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Committee: 9th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 21st March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

No, I have it absolutely right. I know that that is precisely what it is. I have said that on previous occasions. But, with respect, it was the couple of speeches that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, made earlier on that moved me in the Government’s direction.

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, I am obliged for all the contributions at this stage of the debate. I appreciate, as do other Members of the House, that when I move the government amendment to Clause 11, we will embrace a debate about the consequences of that amended clause and the significant change it makes to the way in which we are going to deal with, among other things, devolved competences. But as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, observed, his amendments are consequential in a sense on what is going to happen with regard to Clause 11. In that context, I point out that we had already indicated our intention to move the amendment to Clause 11 and then withdraw it, in order that the consequences for the schedules to the Bill can be addressed more properly when we reach Report. However, there is a more fundamental issue underlying this, which has been highlighted by the use of the terms “consult” and “consent”. It is really rather fundamental. Because these are probing amendments, I will just outline the Government’s thinking with regard to this area of the Bill and how it will work. I am sorry if I am going to appear somewhat repetitive about some matters of history that have been touched upon already, but perhaps your Lordships could bear with me, if but for a moment.

In 1972, the UK Parliament of course transferred certain competences to the EU. Having done so, it limited its competence to legislate for the United Kingdom. When it came to the Scotland Act 1998 and the Government of Wales Act 2006, that Brussels competence, as I will term it, had already gone. When it came to considering the scope of the divorce settlement, the matter of the powers held by the European Union in Brussels was not in scope for consideration as part of devolution. They had gone, by virtue of an international treaty implemented in domestic law pursuant to the ECA 1972. The devolved settlement was determined by reference to the competence that remained in Westminster in 1998 and in 2006.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 7th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to be able—I use that term advisedly—to respond to the issues raised in the context of these amendments. Given the scope of the contributions, I will perhaps begin by touching on one or two points that have been made by noble Lords in the debate.

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, referred to the content of the joint report and quoted, among other things, the phrase,

“the Agreement should also establish”.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, did likewise, and referred to the passage about the bestowal of rights that will come with the conclusion of the withdrawal agreement. The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, referred to Michel Barnier’s recent draft—quite accurately, if I may say so. The noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, pointed out that the European Parliament will have to agree to the terms of any withdrawal agreement. That is self-evident.

In other words, these matters are prospective. Why are they prospective? I do not want to be overly technical, and I do not believe that I will be, but we begin with the duality principle of our law. That means that we enter into international obligations at the level of international law and they have no direct impact on our domestic law. For example, the withdrawal agreement will be an international treaty entered into by the Executive. We then implement or bring the rights and obligations of that international treaty into domestic law by way of domestic legislation of this Parliament. That is the duality principle: you have international law and you have domestic law, and you can only have the domestic law once you have the international treaty, because it is from the international treaty rights and obligations that you allow the domestic rights and obligations to be brought into our domestic law. What we have at the present time is a joint report from December of last year. We acknowledge that.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

It is not a treaty.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

It is not yet a treaty, if I can anticipate the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, because the position of the EU has been, quite rightly, that there is no agreement until everything is agreed. This has been a staged process. We believe that it is important that we were able to achieve the first stage and that we were able to achieve consensus. It is perhaps better to use the word “consensus” here rather than “agreement”, which can be confusing and sometimes misleading. We have achieved consensus in a number of important areas and, as we carry that forward, we proceed into the negotiation of what will be an international treaty.

As we have said before, once we have that international treaty, we can then draw down from the rights and obligations of that international treaty into domestic law by virtue of the fact that we will bring forward a withdrawal agreement Bill for scrutiny by this Parliament.

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[Lord Keen of Elie]

No, my Lords, there will not be two classes of citizens. Let us take a simple example. If I hold USA citizenship and UK citizenship, I can pass between the UK and the USA because I am a citizen of both countries. If I am a citizen of the UK and a citizen of the Republic of Ireland, I can pass between the two countries because I am a citizen of each state. It is not a case of classification; it is simply a matter of status.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Will the noble and learned Lord clarify a point raised earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley? What is the position of citizens in Gibraltar?

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[Lord Keen of Elie]

Gibraltar is an overseas territory whose people hold UK citizenship. However, if they do not retain citizenship of another EU country after Brexit, they will not be EU citizens.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

As I understand it, they can get a Spanish passport if they so wish, although I do not think that many of them do. Will they continue to be citizens of the United Kingdom and will they be eligible also to get EU citizenship?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

This seems to confuse a number of different issues because the parallels are the same as those in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. If you are a UK citizen in Gibraltar and you are also entitled to apply for and be granted citizenship of Spain, you will then hold dual nationality or dual citizenship, and as a citizen of Spain, for as long as it remains a member state of the EU, you will enjoy the right to EU citizenship. It is no different from the position in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. In the same way, the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford—perhaps referring to something she may have read in the Daily Mail—talked about people applying for citizenship of Malta in order to ensure they can maintain EU citizenship. This is how it happens, but the fundamental point is that you cannot be a citizen of the EU unless you are a citizen of a member state. That is written into the treaties.

It may appear—and it will almost certainly appear to the Chief Whip—that I have digressed slightly from some of the amendments; he will be watching. I just seek to touch on some of them. I hope I covered in my opening remarks some of the points made. Amendments 160 and 170 were tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and Amendment 202 by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham. Unfortunately, she was not here to speak to it, but it was referred to. As I have indicated, at the end of the day, we will have to conclude the negotiations in respect of the withdrawal agreement treaty and then draw it down into our domestic law. Tying Clause 9 to a particular outcome is not going to assist that.

The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, moved Amendment 210. Again, I hope I have set out the Government’s position on this. We appreciate what we have achieved by way of the joint report, and we go on to the detailed negotiations in the hope it will effectively mean that we can confirm in domestic law not only the rights of EU citizens in the United Kingdom, but the right of UK citizens in the EU.

The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, moved Amendment 211, which details a requirement to keep equivalence with the EU on rights and protections. Again, this is prospective. We are addressing it in the course of negotiations and we hope to achieve it in many respects. In my view and in the view of the Government, it would not be appropriate to bring this into our domestic law.

Finally, we have Amendments 49 and 52, which I hope I have gone some way to addressing so far. The Bill aims to provide a stable and certain domestic statute book on exit day. That is its point, irrespective of the result of the negotiations and of any final agreement with the EU. Of course, once we achieve a final agreement, we fully appreciate that we are going to have to draw it down into our domestic law. Parliament will have an opportunity to scrutinise it.

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[Lord Adonis]

Before my noble friend concludes, does he share my concern about what the Minister said about the difference between “consensus” and “agreement”? Does he agree that that is quite a significant statement on the part of the Government in the course of this debate? The only point in making the distinction, as I understand it, is that the Government do not regard themselves as fully committed to the terms of the “agreement” of last December.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

It is unusual for me to intervene, but I feel that if the noble Lord is going to make statements, he should make them accurately. If he is going to represent what a Minister has said, he should do so accurately. The distinction I drew was between an agreement that was now binding in international law and an agreement that was not now binding in international law. I hope the noble Lord’s recollection coincides with mine. If it does not, could he perhaps consult Hansard?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

It is a very interesting point, and the noble Lord, Lord Patten, highlighted it in his intervention. I wish that while he was speaking I had been able to translate “consensus” and “agreement” into Spanish, French, German, Italian, Portuguese, Welsh and so on to see whether there is a coincidence between one and the other. No doubt that is something that we can return to.

The Minister finished by saying that there is a time and a place, and that this is not the right time and not the right place for these amendments. There will be many more times and this will be the right place, and I look forward to speaking to the rights of European—

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 28th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am not sure I agree with that proposition. But of course, at the end of the day, pursuant to Clause 7, it will be necessary to bring forward regulations which address amendments that are required in regards to retained EU law. At that point of course, those regulations will be the subject of scrutiny to ensure that they are limited to those aspects which are EU-derived law and therefore EU retained law. I do not believe that that is necessarily a problem, but I hear what the noble Baroness has said. We will of course take into consideration any difficulties that could arise in that context.

I wish to add one further point that I meant to make at the outset in response to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. He referred to me as the Advocate-General. I am not appearing here as a law officer, and nothing I say should be construed as law officer advice. I am appearing here as a Minister in respect of the Bill. I would not want there to be any misunderstanding in the light of his reference.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

I am really interested in what the noble and learned Lord has just said. Could he explain what the difference is if he says something as a law officer or as a Minister? What import does that have? What difference does it make in the context of this House and in the legal context?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord. I would never say anything in this House as a law officer. It is my role to give advice to the Government in my role as a law officer, but I do not speak in this Chamber in that role. I just wanted to make that clear. The other difference can be found in the list of ministerial salaries.

Clause 2 is not broadly drawn for the reason that all this legislation needs saving—a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, with reference to Clause 14(6). It is broadly drawn for two important reasons. First, any deficiencies that might arise within this domestic legislation upon our withdrawal can be corrected by the Bill powers under Clause 7. I appreciate that there are noble Lords who will want to address the scope of those powers under Clause 7 when we come to it, but that is the purpose of drawing Clause 2 in this way. During the period in which we have been an EU member state, we have brought into our domestic law a great deal of EU law, and not just expressed as EU-derived law in the form of the implementation of directives or the direct effect of regulations. We have already had reference to the scope of, for example, the Equalities Act; there is also the health and safety at work legislation. These are areas in which we know we find EU-derived legislation. It is therefore important that we bring all that together in order that it can be subject to the regulatory processes in Clause 7, subject of course to the debate that will take place with regard to the scope of the powers in that clause.

The second, rather more important, reason for treating all this legislation as part of retained EU law—I emphasise the connection between EU-derived legislation and what is defined as “retained EU law” for the purposes of the Bill—is that we have to ensure that retained EU law will continue to be interpreted consistently by our courts under Clause 6 of the Bill. This, I apprehend, is why the Bingham Centre, for example, said, while addressing the question of the scope of Clause 2, “If you’re going to narrow the scope, then you’re going to have to amend other parts of the Bill, in particular Clause 6”. That might be a different road to the same goal. All I would say at this stage is that the road we would take is to address this in the context of Clause 2 and the scope of that clause. In a sense, if Clause 2 were narrower, the powers under Clause 7 would be much broader. If we did not bring all of this into the definition of EU-derived legislation but wanted to be able to operate by way of regulations pursuant to Clause 7, there would be virtually no boundaries for the Clause 7 powers, whereas they are circumscribed by the definition that is brought into Clause 2 in the present form.

In my respectful submission, it would be odd if we were to take these categories out of Clause 2 and therefore find ourselves in a situation in which the construction of that law now differed from what it would have been while it remained to be interpreted by reference to the canons of construction that presently apply while we are a member of the EU. It is important that it should be part of retained EU law in order that we have consistency of interpretation. I do not take issue with the suggestion that an alternative route might be to narrow Clause 2 and then completely amend Clause 6, but that is simply not the route that the Government are taking here. I have sought to explain why we are taking this particular route at this time.

I hope that I have reassured noble Lords that Clause 2 is wide in its scope, but for a legitimate purpose. As I said, we will come in due course to address the question of whether and to what extent Clause 7 should complement those provisions with regard to retained EU law. In those circumstances, and emphasising again that we are listening to various considerations about how Clause 2 is formulated, I hope that noble Lords will see fit not to press their amendments. I am obliged.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I am really grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, himself a former Advocate-General, for moving this amendment. In the light of what he said, all I can say is that I agree with his every word.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble and learned Lord and the noble Lord not only for explaining the amendment but for their endorsement of it.

In responding to Amendments 16, 17 and 342, I start by reaffirming our view that Clause 2 is an essential provision for providing certainty and continuity regarding our law after exit day. I think that that is plain to all noble Lords. I shall then say a little more about why Clause 2 must stand part of the Bill. This clause, along with Clauses 3 and 4, delivers one of the core purposes of this Bill: maximising certainty for individuals and businesses when we leave the EU by ensuring that, so far as is practical, the laws that we have now will continue to apply. In that respect, Clause 2 preserves the domestic law that we have made to implement our EU obligations; we have touched on that already.

More particularly, on the point raised by the noble and learned Lord in this regard, Amendment 342 seeks to clarify that Acts of the Scottish Parliament are included within the clause only if they have received Royal Assent before exit day. I suspect that Amendment 16 also seeks to provide clarity on that same point. I am grateful for the opportunity to clarify any uncertainty that there may be here. Clause 2(2) states that,

“‘EU-derived domestic legislation’ means any enactment”

that is described in that subsection. Clause 14 defines the term “enactment” to include an enactment contained in an Act of the Scottish Parliament. An Act of the Scottish Parliament must have received Royal Assent; until that time, it is a Bill. Section 28(2) of the Scotland Act 1998 provides for this. So an Act of the Scottish Parliament that has only been passed and not received Royal Assent does not fall within this definition, and would not be categorised as EU-derived domestic legislation for the purposes of this Bill. I believe that the noble and learned Lord rather suspected that this might be the case; his concern seemed to be one of certainty as regards the drafting.

The same applies in relation to Acts of the UK Parliament. The reference to “passed” in Clause 2(2)(b) is therefore a reference to the purpose for which the enactment was passed, not whether it was passed. In that context, I venture to suggest that Amendments 16 and 342 are unnecessary.

Transparency of the Parole Board and Victim Support

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Tuesday 9th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

With respect, I can perhaps answer both questions by reference to the same issue. As far as I am aware, no pressure is being brought to bear on the Parole Board with respect to inappropriate release of IPP prisoners. The statutory test is perfectly clear, and the Parole Board is an independent body applying that statutory test, which should continue to be the position. It would not be appropriate that we should depart from the situation in which there is an independent Parole Board making these decisions objectively, to somehow bring it back into the fold of political decision-making where you may find pressure from the electorate, the media and elsewhere that impacts directly on someone’s right of liberty.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

From the Minister’s extensive experience north of the border, is there anything that can be learned from the procedures in Scotland?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord, but I have to confess that I have virtually no experience of criminal law north of the border.

Prosecutions: Defence Legal Costs

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Wednesday 15th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, there are clearly a variety of ways in which this matter can be addressed. Nevertheless, I fail to understand how someone who has been acquitted could be accused of having brought the prosecution on themselves.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, is it simpler in Scotland?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, many things are simpler in Scotland. However, in Scotland there is an entirely distinct legal aid scheme which differs in a number of principal regards. Therefore, it is not comparable to the system in England and Wales.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 27th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for the amendment concerning the European Economic Area, which seeks to ensure that the UK remains a member of the EEA.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder if the Minister will give way—

[Lord Keen of Elie]

Not yet, no. While I understand the issues raised and agree with the desire to debate them in this House, I cannot accept the amendment.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I wonder if the Minister can clarify—

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I wonder if the noble Lord will allow me to make a little progress before he launches into the water. This Bill is about the process of our leaving the European Union. It is not about the Government’s approach. I will happily debate these matters with your Lordships, and I am sure that there will be other occasions on which to do so over the coming months and, indeed, years. But as the other place has shown, this Bill is not the place to put constraints on the Government’s approach.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

What is it that the Minister says? I am obliged to him for giving way. As this is the first time we have heard from the Minister on this subject since the weekend, I wonder if he would care to comment on one of the most significant happenings. A very distinguished Member of this House, who sat through almost the whole Second Reading on Monday and Tuesday—a former Deputy Prime Minister for whom we all have the greatest respect—has said that he is going to oppose his own Government on this. He is completely against Brexit. What is the Government’s reaction? Are they not going to take account of the views of someone so distinguished, someone with such great experience of government and of the European Union? Would the Minister care to respond?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

Yes, of course. The noble Lord to whom the noble Lord refers is not in the House today.

It is my intention to make some progress with this matter. The Prime Minister clearly set out her vision for the future of the UK post-exit in her speech on 17 January, including our future trading relationship with the EU. She was clear that we do not seek membership of the single market. Instead, we seek the greatest possible access to it through a new, comprehensive, bold and ambitious free trade agreement. We want the UK to have the freest possible trade in goods and services with the EU’s member states but also to be able to negotiate our own trade agreements. As the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, observed, we seek our own, bespoke deal.

The United Kingdom has always been a leading voice for free trade, not only in the European Union but globally, and we have been consistently clear that we want the maximum possible freedom to trade for businesses in both Britain and Europe. But we also want to take back control of our laws and control immigration to Britain from Europe.

Being a member of the EEA would mean complying with the EU’s rules and regulations that implement the four freedoms—in respect of capital, goods, services and people—without having a vote on what those rules and regulations are. It would mean accepting a role for the European Court of Justice that would see it still having direct legal authority in our country. It would mean not having control over immigration. EU leaders in the other 27 states have been clear as to their belief in the indivisible nature of the four freedoms, and we respect that. The people of the United Kingdom voted to leave the EU, not to maintain partial membership of its bodies or institutions. When the people of the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union institutions, they did not intend that we should leave by the front door and rush back to attempt entry by the back door.

As set out in the White Paper, we recognise that we will require alternative forms of dispute resolution once we leave the EU and are no longer subject to the European Court of Justice. But again, these mechanisms are common both to agreements between the EU and third countries and in international agreements to which the United Kingdom is also party, of which there are many examples. Once we leave the EU, the EEA agreement will no longer be relevant for the United Kingdom. It will have no practical effect. It will be an empty vessel. That is because the agreement is defined as covering all EU members and those three EFTA states—Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway—which have chosen to join the EEA. As we are leaving the EU, we will automatically be outside this definition, as found in Article 126 of the EEA agreement. So there is no choice open to us to leave the EU and remain a member of the EEA, which would require a separate negotiation with the EU and the three EFTA states that I have just mentioned. For example, Switzerland, which is also a member of EFTA, has separate bilateral agreements with the EU even though it is not in the EEA. EFTA membership is not, of course, the same as EEA membership.

Although it will have no practical effect after the EU exit, we are considering what steps might need to be taken formally to terminate the EEA agreement as a matter of law, as we will remain a signatory to the agreement. This could be done through Article 127 of the EEA agreement on giving 12 months’ notice, or by some other means, but no decision has yet been taken on that. We have laid out in the White Paper, however, the relationship we are seeking: a new strategic partnership which includes a new customs agreement and an ambitious and comprehensive free trade agreement. We are seeking the greatest possible access to the single market as part of this.

The noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, referred to the fact that we would not be at the table. That is absolutely right, and that is not what 52% of our population voted for when they voted leave. It is one thing to have power without responsibility; it is another to have responsibility without power, and that is what we would have in these circumstances. It was suggested that freedom of movement could be open to a variety of interpretations. That is not the view in Europe. It is open to only one interpretation—one which we have been under for a number of years.

The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, referred to the report of the House of Lords committee. I can reassure her that we take the terms of that report very seriously, and we will be taking forward our consideration of it in due course. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, referred to the suggestion that somehow we could keep our options open so far as the EEA is concerned, but that is not the case. EEA membership is not an option that is simply open to us if we leave the EU. As I said, it becomes an empty vessel. We have to face up to the indivisibility of the four freedoms, as insisted upon. It is not a case of going to Europe and saying, “We would like to negotiate out of one of the four freedoms”. We are told repeatedly that they are indivisible, and we have to take that into account.

At the end of the day, we cannot embrace membership of the EEA any more than membership of the EU without freedom of movement in Europe. In these circumstances, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw this amendment on the understanding that we cannot retain membership of the EEA for the reasons I have sought to set out.

Lay Magistrates

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Monday 20th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

The noble Lord draws attention to a number of issues concerning the disposal of cases between the district court and the magistrates’ court. That will be further addressed in detail as we proceed with the prison and courts reform Bill, which is presently under consideration. I reassure the noble Lord that there is no attempt to direct recruitment towards particular social classes or backgrounds. The 44 advisory committees responsible for recruiting magistrates in England and Wales are concerned to ensure that they recruit talented people from all backgrounds and all communities.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Has the Minister noticed, as I have, that in response to powerful pleas from Peers on all sides he and his noble friend Lord Nash have merely read out extracts from the brief provided by their civil servants? Are Ministers in the House of Lords no longer allowed to say, “I’ll take that back and discuss it with my colleagues”?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I was not aware that the noble Lord had read my brief before I arrived in the Chamber. I rather think that if he did he did it in a cursory manner, because I can assure him that the answers I have given have not simply been a recitation of what was in the written brief.

Criminal Justice System: Diversity

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 15th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

We are extremely concerned about the youth offender institutions and are taking forward the proposals noted by Charlie Taylor’s review with regard to introducing further education and training into that regime.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

It is not just in the justice system that black and minority-ethnic people are discriminated against. Is the Minister aware that, at a recent meeting of a Select Committee, the chairman of the Charity Commission had to admit that there are no black and ethnic-minority people on the Charity Commission, which is a disgrace? On top of that, there are no members from the whole of the north of England. The Charity Commission is an elite body run by Mr Shawcross and his cronies and something ought to be done about it. Will he have a word with his colleagues to see what can be done?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am not in a position to comment on the constitution of the Charity Commission and I am obliged for the noble Lord’s suggestion that I should have a look at it. Clearly, I will. Beyond that, I am not able to comment.

Rainsbrook Secure Training Centre

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 15th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

It is apparent that perhaps we have to apply more care to the transfer arrangements for institutions of this kind. Indeed, it has been proposed that the original transfer plan for Rainsbrook, which was to complete in November 2016, will probably extend to March 2017 in order to address these issues.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, has the House noticed that the Questions put to the Government Front Bench today have been answered by one Member from Wales and two from Scotland, while from the Opposition Front Bench we have had one Scot, and from the Back Benches a number of Scots, notwithstanding the excellent contribution by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth? Does the Minister agree that this shows the value to this House of a whole United Kingdom and that we should redouble our efforts to fight the separatists who would split us asunder?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I concur with the noble Lord’s observations and would observe that this Government are committed to ethnic diversity.

Immigration

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Wednesday 8th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

That is simply not the case. We control migration—economic migration and other migration—whether from Europe or elsewhere. In the context of the European Union, of course, there are rules and provisions; but in the context of outside Europe, there are also rules and provisions.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Does the Minister agree that it would be a really great pity if the outcome of the vote on 23 June, which affects our lives in so many ways, particularly those of young people, were to be decided by a nasty, xenophobic campaign by some of the Brexiteers?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

To speak of immigration is not to be xenophobic.

Investor Visas: Money Laundering

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Monday 9th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, there are schools, hospitals, nationality and honours. Is it possible for people with enough money to buy anything from a Tory Government?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

The question, in my respectful submission, is not well aimed, and there is no question of persons being able to buy their way into the United Kingdom. There is a means by which they can invest in the United Kingdom, but they are subject to very clear checks, which have been improved since 2014.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord Keen of Elie

Tuesday 8th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I will not accept an intervention at this stage.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Then get on with it.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes.