Jobseekers (Back to Work Schemes) Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord German

Thursday 21st March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord German]

My Lords, I want to address the Bill itself, but before I do that I want to make a few comments on the amendment before us today. When I first read the amendment’s text last evening, when it was produced, I had a bit of a flashback to earlier student days when you had composite Motions and amendments and the call for separate votes to be able to unpick the various parts. While I acknowledge that there are issues fundamental to this Bill that need to be raised, they are appropriately the issues that would and should be raised in Committee on Monday. I expect that we will deal with those issues, so the amendment as a composite presents a very difficult picture for people to decide upon. However, there is one crucial factor running throughout the amendment: the issues raised by the Constitution Committee of this House on retrospection and fast-tracking. Before I ask my noble friend to comment on that, I refer to two paragraphs in the Constitution Committee’s report—the last in respect of retrospection, and paragraph 12, which says:

“it is incumbent upon the Government to explain to Parliament why they have chosen to proceed by means of fast-track legislation and to reject the alternative options”.

I listened very carefully to my noble friend at the outset, and I hope that he comes back to that matter in his summing-up, when he may be able to give this House an explanation.

Subject to the Government providing those explanations, I support the Bill for exactly the same reasons as the Front-Bench Labour spokespeople in the other place, who said that they,

“do not want to risk an additional £130 million cut to benefit spending over the period ahead … Nor do we want to be in a position in which people who were sanctioned months ago—in many cases, well over a year ago—have to be refunded”.—[Official Report, Commons, 19/3/13; col. 825.]

I agree with the Labour Party Front Bench on those issues and why the Bill is before us today.

I want to say something about the nature of secondary legislation and its scrutiny. It is Parliament that passes and scrutinises regulations, and it will probably be Parliament that has to decide how it does those things in the light of any subsequent changes brought about by the courts. Of course we are not at the end of this process yet, as I have said already. There are important lessons to learn from these problems to see how we can move on in a better way.

The court determined on narrow issues and on insufficient detail and content of the schemes and regulations, and that the notices given to claimants did not specify the range of sanctions that could be used, but it upheld the policy intentions of the Government’s work schemes and backed the right to require people to take part in programmes that would help to set them into work. Up to 1 September last year, 200,000 people found work through the Government’s Work Programme. Appropriate work experience is a good thing, and it helps to build the confidence of jobseekers. Increasing employment levels in our country since May 2010 have meant that since that time nearly 250,000 fewer people now claim out-of-work benefits, in a period of huge economic difficulty. However, I wish to discuss the operation of these schemes. We know that there are no targets and no league tables for Jobcentre Plus on sanctions. Therefore, the key question I want to probe is how we can better undertake these tasks, which is fundamental to ensuring that we get the best out of existing programmes.

We know from the evidence provided by the DWP that the overwhelming majority of those who have been on the Work Programme are satisfied with it, but, of course, there is always room for improvement. Three-quarters of those who attended the programme said that they believed they were more attractive to potential employers and that their personal confidence had increased as a result. That is a powerful outcome for a group of people who are some distance from the labour market. Clearly, the majority think that they have got closer to it. However, the programmes could offer better outcomes in many cases. The first of these areas concerns engagement with the third sector. When the main contractors were appointed to run the Work Programme, there was much discussion about subcontracting to the third sector. I would be grateful if, when he sums up, my noble friend could tell us to what extent that engagement has occurred given the unusual skills of people in the third sector in dealing with individuals who find themselves in difficulty.

The second area that we ought to probe is the change of culture within Jobcentre Plus. There is a balance to be struck between codifying everything passed on to the JCP and giving advisers the discretion to interpret issues in the light of claimants’ circumstances. There is a question to be asked about the level of top-down instruction, which in the past has been very much the way of working. I looked up the instruction manual to ascertain what constitutes good reason or good cause for people not undertaking to do things they have been asked to do. You can read through 16 pages of guidance, plus another chapter. However, if you ask people in general what they would do in such circumstances, they reveal an all-embracing understanding of the issues. It is a very complex area and a vigorous interpretation of the guidance has led to the problems being experienced in some offices, particularly in relation to targets for sanctions, which have been mentioned today.

Ministers have had to come down hard on clear misinterpretation, but have signalled that they are pursuing the empowerment of decision-makers as a critical cultural change. There must be a role in all this for flexibility, discretion and sensitivity. The legal case behind today’s Bill has thrown up other cases. As regards the cultural shift that Ministers have outlined, a basic structure needs to be provided vis-à-vis the way Work Programme claimants are handled. That structure should have three components. First, there should be a meeting with the provider or JCP contractor. Often there is no face to face meeting between the provider and the claimant. However, it is necessary to have an intelligent conversation about their future needs. Those needs should be clearly communicated and agreed. The outcome also needs to be agreed between both parties, rather like the new contracts proposed for universal credit.

Secondly, it is important to try to fit the placement to the person. It is important to establish the work habit, obviously, but an appropriate placement is needed that suits the requirements of both parties. Thirdly, the Government should not get in the way of serious job opportunities. They need to give people space to find their own placements. Just yesterday, I heard a case of someone with a qualification in photography who was offered a job in a do-it-yourself shop but found a more appropriate placement in a photography shop, which was accepted as an appropriate placement. I welcome the independent review process. We now need to see new detailed terms of reference. I always make the plea to my noble friend the Minister that any evaluation, rather than being considered a milestone, should be rolling so that you can learn lessons as information comes before you. I hope that we will hear more about that later. I look forward to hearing the Minister meet the concerns of the Constitution Committee, but otherwise I am happy to support the Bill.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Could the noble Lord help me? I remember when the Liberal Democrats were on this side of the House all the handwringing about retrospection and fast-tracking of legislation. I am not clear from what the noble Lord said whether he is in favour of the Constitution Committee’s report or supports the Government on both retrospection and fast-tracking. Could he make that clear to the House?

[Lord German]

Yes, I will. It is perfectly obvious that the noble Lord’s party did the same thing when it was in power. There was retrospection in legislation. I can think of the videogames legislation, which has some very great similarities to this Bill. My plea to the Government is to answer the questions posed to them by the Constitution Committee in this debate so that we can have that explanation. I quoted the two paragraphs of the report. I am sure the noble Lord has that in front of him, so he can look at paragraphs 12 and 15. Those are the two questions I want answered.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and Lord German

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Can I ask the noble Lord a number of questions since he is asking the Minister a lot of questions? He seems to accept the policy in the Bill but only wants it postponed, so what is his attitude to the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis? What is his response, particularly to the point made by my noble friend Lady Turner that this should be done by agreement and not be forced on people?

[Lord German]

I think if the noble Lord would wait a few moments, he will see what I am proposing. It is on this piece of card, which I can pass to him, but if he just bears with me, I will give him three things which I think are essential in order to make this section of the Bill work. That is why I am posing the questions, because it seems to me that the solutions are not given in any of the documents.

The document from the DWP about what these choices will be and the three questions that people will have to answer says:

“it is unclear how this”—

the policy—

“will affect the choices of claimants that are likely to be affected by the measure”.

In other words, the Government do not know; or do they? If they do know, we need to ensure that we have those figures in front of us. If we are to avoid unintended consequences, we are going to have to look at the levers that ensure that the housing stock is accurate, and if the housing stock can, over time, match the needs of this particular policy.

As we know, there are 670,000 claimants, presumably of working age, which means that a third of a million non-working age claimants are underoccupying—the noble Lords, Lord Stoneham and Lord Wigley, have talked about elderly people underoccupying. Maybe there is an answer to that which the Minister and the Government have already thought about. There are no figures that I have seen in any of the documentation that indicate how we are going to manage to create a housing stock to match the changes. First, we need to know how many of the 670,000 are going to move and the modelling figure behind it. Until we have the answer to that, we cannot answer the question about how many houses we are going to need.

[Lord German]

I am grateful for that quotation, which of course goes against the other one that I gave from further on in the document, which says that we do not know what claimants’ choices are likely to be. The noble Baroness’s quotation has the word “little” in it. We have often reached the point where we have quoted from different sections of the same document, and that is why we need answers. We need to know which of the three choices people are going to make so that we can determine whether the homes are available for them. There are three solutions, which I put to the Minister and which we need answers about, at the very least after his answer to the fundamental question of whether we have the housing stock.

I ask the Minister, when replying, to talk not about the DCLG but about the three government departments that are responsible for these matters in this country, because three levers have to be pulled for the DWP to be able to answer that single question. What is the solution? I would like to know what the three government departments feel about how they can match housing demand. I must say that I am not particularly encouraged because, for many of us, moving house is probably the worst thing in the world that you could probably do. In fact, my noble friend Lord Kirkwood told me this morning that we ought to exchange our rubbish with our neighbour’s because our neighbour’s rubbish is much more interesting than our own. I have found moving house to be a very uncomfortable exercise, and I am sure we have to be careful of this. The Government say that they are working in England to develop a team of advisers who will work to help people to make better use of our housing stock, which is a laudable aim, but they also say that they will work with the devolved Administrations to see what can be done in Scotland and Wales. What can be done about the housing stock across the whole of the country where this policy impacts?

It seems to me that there are three potential solutions when we have the answers to the figures, one of which is that we must have housing money—discretionary housing money, or whatever—to ensure that the money reaches the particular groups that will need it in order to be able to make the adjustment. The second is about exceptions. We will come to that in the next set of amendments, but where the cost to the public purse can be demonstrated to be larger—and many of the amendments coming up now will demonstrate that—we must ensure that we have exceptions. The final point that has been made by many noble Lords here today is that we must have transition time for the social housing sector in all three parts of the country where this Bill applies to make the changes in order that this policy works. We cannot achieve the original purposes of these measures, all of which I think are right, without achieving those three things and without ensuring that we have a sector that can—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I have listened very carefully, and the noble Lord’s Welsh eloquence—what do you call it, hwyl?—is impressive, but he has still not made it clear to me whether his speech is in support of the amendment by my noble friend Baroness Hollis.

[Lord German]

My speech, my Lords, is in favour of the policy proposals that are behind this measure, but in order to achieve that this amendment has given us an opportunity to explore the issues that need to be satisfied in order that we can proceed. And hwyl, by the way, is spelt H-W-Y-L, for the record.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord German]

I will repeat the answer that I gave the noble Baroness just now.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I have still not had the answer to my question. I do not want him to repeat it, just to clarify it. It was the pronunciation of hwyl I had problems with, not the spelling.

For all his bluster and eloquence, I think the noble Lord has confirmed that he still supports the coalition Government’s dreadful proposals in the Bill. All his questions to the Minister are really just to cover up that fact.