Brexit: Preparations and Negotiations

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 23rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department for Exiting the European Union (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, negotiations on the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from, and future relationship with, the European Union continue at pace. The publication last week of the Government’s White Paper on the future relationship—a detailed and credible proposal—has given impetus to these negotiations.

Last month we published a joint statement that set out the substantial progress that we have made on the draft withdrawal agreement since the March European Council. We have reached agreement across the majority of the remaining separation issues. Last week my right honourable friend the Secretary of State travelled to Brussels to meet his counterpart, Michel Barnier, where they had constructive discussions on the details of the White Paper and took stock of the negotiations. While there are still issues to agree, our negotiating teams are working to ensure that these are finalised by October and that we reach a positive settlement for both the UK and the EU.

Domestically, we continue to prepare the legislation needed to implement the withdrawal agreement in UK law. We will publish a White Paper tomorrow setting out more details on this. On the future relationship, we believe that the White Paper that we have published is a principled and pragmatic plan for the relationship that we wish to build—an ambitious and innovative proposal that respects the position, interests and concerns of the European Union. It delivers on the decision of the British people to take back control of our laws, our money and our borders, while preserving and building on the historic ties with our European friends and neighbours, in areas such as trade and security, which we both rightly prize.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister said a minute ago that the White Paper will be published tomorrow, the day the House rises, which seems rather strange. What time tomorrow will it be published?

[Lord Callanan]

My right honourable friend the Secretary of State will be making an Oral Statement in another place tomorrow. I do not know whether we have an exact time for that yet.

Leaving the EU offers us an opportunity to forge a new role for ourselves in the world, to negotiate our own trade agreements and to be a positive and powerful force for free trade. Central to our proposal is a free trade area for goods, supported by a common rulebook for those rules necessary to provide frictionless trade at the border and a new facilitated customs arrangement. This will help to secure the complex supply chains and just-in-time manufacturing processes that we have developed with the EU over the past 40 years. This will give businesses certainty and clarity and preserve those jobs that rely on frictionless trade at the border.

A key component of the free trade area will be our proposal for a facilitated customs arrangement, or FCA. This is a business-friendly model that removes the need for any new routine customs checks and controls between the UK and the EU while enabling the UK to control its own tariffs and boost trade with the rest of the world. Under this arrangement, the UK would apply the EU’s tariffs to goods intended for the EU and its own tariffs and policy to goods intended for consumption here in the UK.

In contrast to the earlier proposal for a new customs partnership, the FCA will be an up-front system. This means that most businesses would pay the right tariff to begin with, rather than receiving a rebate at the point of final consumption. Other businesses could claim a tariff repayment as soon as possible in the supply chain. We will agree the circumstances in which repayments can be granted with the EU and, as the White Paper makes clear, we will negotiate a reciprocal tariff revenue formula, taking account of goods destined for the UK entering via the EU and goods destined for the EU entering via the UK. This model has the specific advantage of protecting UK-EU supply and value chains and the businesses that rely on them. For example, Airbus manufactures wings for all its civil aircraft in north Wales. These are then transported to the continent for final assembly. In Dagenham, Ford manufactures diesel power trains for export to the EU. As well as supporting businesses, this approach would meet our shared commitment to Northern Ireland and Ireland in a way that respects the EU’s autonomy without harming the UK’s constitutional and economic integrity.

Brexit Transition: European Parliament Membership

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Thursday 7th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Whether that would be a good idea or not, it would have to be agreed with the European Parliament and as we will no longer be a member state, I cannot see that Parliament being happy about the prospect of a non-member state sending representatives to it.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Will the Minister join me in commending the Electoral Commission for making provision for elections to the European Parliament, should we still remain as members?

[Lord Callanan]

We will not be remaining as members. The Government think it is a waste to spend money on an election that would be pointless because we will not have Members of the European Parliament. We also think it is pointless for the Electoral Commission to spend money preparing for an election that will not happen, and we have made that very clear to it.

UK-EU Security Partnership

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Thursday 17th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to add to my question to the Minister from last week. Has he been able to check yet whether he can accept a wager from me that we will still be in the European Union at the end of March next year? If he can, in the light of the story on the front page of the Daily Telegraph today, I am willing to raise the stake to £100.

[Lord Callanan]

I have not checked the appropriate parliamentary procedures but I would be happy to see the noble Lord outside. It is always a great pleasure to take money off a Scotsman and I will endeavour to do so because we will leave the European Union in March next year.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 16th May 2018 Lords Chamber

My last point has already been made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, and I have probably made it far too often and bored the House—but it would be so much better if our debates on these issues could be illuminated by hearing the views of the governing party in Scotland, directly by being here. This is a paradigm case. Members of the governing party in Scotland are asking us, when Mr Russell writes to us, to take account of their views—but we do not have the opportunity to cross-examine and interrogate them and work out how strongly held or how soundly based those views are.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

The noble Lord is very well-meaning in what he suggests. However, is he aware that Mike Russell actually agreed to the same proposal from the United Kingdom Government that the Welsh Government agreed to? He went along with that and then went back up to Scotland and was told by Nicola Sturgeon that it would not be approved because she did not like it. She runs it: not Mike Russell. How on earth can the United Kingdom Government—as noble Lords know, I am no fan of the United Kingdom Government on most things—legitimately deal with someone who says he goes along with it and then goes back up to Edinburgh and gets overruled by his First Minister?

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard]

The noble Lord probably knows more about it than me. I only know what I read in the UK press, which is almost nothing, and in the Scottish press. But my point is a slightly different one. I thought I would be attacked by the noble Lord on slightly different grounds. I want SNP representation in this Chamber. On previous occasions the noble Lord has reminded me that it is entirely the theology of the SNP that prevents it being represented in this Chamber—and he is completely correct about that. I do not understand why the SNP, represented in the other place, adopts towards this House the policy that Sinn Féin adopts towards the other House. I do not understand it at all. The onus is of course on members of the SNP to change their minds if they wish to take part in our debates, but I would ask the Minister to say what some of his colleagues in the past have said: if SNP MPs were to change their minds, the Government would be delighted to see them represented in this place.

Brexit: Logistics Industry

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 8th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

The border between the UK and Ireland will be a customs border in the future. Of course, we want to make that border as frictionless as possible, as we do the other borders. That is the purpose of the discussions.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, perhaps I can come to the assistance of the Liberal Democrats, who seem to be at sixes and sevens over whether or not we are going to leave the European Union. I am certain that we will not leave the European Union. Last week we had a Question on the dangers of gambling, particularly internet gambling, but I am prepared to make a wager with the Minister of at least £10—I am a generous Scotsman—that by the date designated for exiting we will not be leaving the European Union. Will the Minister take that bet?

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Report: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 8th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, for continuing to champion this important cause, which is dear to the hearts of these Benches. There are several invidious features of this matter. First, it creates a division among United Kingdom citizens. Not only do people in Northern Ireland have the right to acquire Irish citizenship and thus EU citizenship, but many other British citizens have the right to, or are already pursuing, dual citizenship in order to get the passport of another country. I believe that I have the right to an Irish passport because my mother and my grandmother were born in Dublin. That creates two sets of British citizens: those with the additional political expression and practical advantages of EU citizenship and those who are unable to continue to enjoy them.

Another feature of this matter is hypocrisy. Do the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and the Minister agree that the following is deeply hypocritical of the leading voices in Legatum? It is reported that the co-founder, who is of New Zealand extraction, and the chief executive have managed to acquire Maltese passports. How they have done so, I have no idea. That will give them EU citizenship, including the right of free movement. As advocates of the hardest of hard Brexits, they have had the ear, we believe, of many leading members of the Government. They have been pushing hard for Brexit so as to deprive the rest of us of EU citizenship, but they have made sure that they are feathering their own nest by obtaining citizenship of another EU member state and thus EU citizenship and free movement.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

Before the noble Baroness sits down, she is absolutely right, but is she aware that one of the DUP Peers who spoke at length in the debate last week has an Irish passport?

[Baroness Ludford]

I take the noble Lord’s word for it. I have no reason to doubt that. I have a feeling that there may be many people in similar positions who are saying one thing and doing another. I find that pretty reprehensible.

We strongly advocate that all UK citizens should continue to have the opportunity of EU citizenship. Many of us feel particularly for young people. Those of us who are getting long in the tooth have for 45 years had the advantage of the freedom to move to and work in another EU country. It is extremely sad that the young people of this country are going to be deprived of that opportunity.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Report: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I have a couple of observations, one specific and the other more general. The specific observation relates to subsection (1) in the proposed new clause, which talks about the way in which a withdrawal agreement would be approved or otherwise by Parliament. This issue has been raised several times in the past by me and other noble Lords. If you require parliamentary approval, what happens if one House says yes and the other says no? This is particularly serious in relation to anything connected with the ratification or otherwise of agreements between the Government and the EU 27. Either House saying no—in this case it would probably be the House of Lords—would, in effect, be a veto on the whole process. To be fair, there is an attempt to deal with this problem, because proposed new subsection (1) requires approval,

“by a resolution in the House of Commons”,

but the simple,

“consideration of a motion in the House of Lords”.

My simple, factual and specific point is just this: we do not need an Act of Parliament in order for us to consider a Motion. We can do that any time we want to, pretty well, on any subject we choose. That is not any kind of control or limitation whatsoever. I would say, “Good, but what on earth is subsection (1)(b) doing in an Act of Parliament?” It is absolutely unnecessary—otiose may be the word, I am not sure, but it is irrelevant and we should not clutter the statute book with points such as this which are of no value whatsoever. My more general observation is that we are putting ourselves in a bizarre circumstance. We are saying that we, the unelected House of Lords, should pass an amendment which effectively tells the House of Commons how to hold the Government to account. Essentially, it is instructing the House of Commons. A lot of noble Lords have been in the House of Commons. That House holds Governments to account day in, day out. It does that by a multitude of different mechanisms: by debate, adjournment debates, emergency resolutions, questions to Ministers, and Bills.

The function of Parliament in general and the House of Commons in particular is to hold Governments to account. We are simply saying to it by this amendment, “We think you should have additional powers to hold the Government to account”. If the House of Commons wants to exercise control over the way in which the negotiations proceed, it does not need any advice, still less any extra powers given to it by us—it has them already. Government is subject to the House of Commons. The House of Commons is not the servant of government in a parliamentary democracy, to quote the noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, but ultimately it is the other way round: the Government is the servant of the House of Commons.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

If my noble friend is right in every case, why did Gina Miller have to take action in the High Court?

[Lord Grocott]

My noble friend was not present at the time, as a number of us were, but if he is in any doubt whatever about the ultimate authority of the House of Commons, he should have been in the House of Commons in 1979—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I was.

[Lord Grocott]

I am sorry; it was later. My noble friend missed the boat by a few months. That was when the House of Commons—just before my noble friend enriched it with his presence—threw the Government out. I can think of no more substantial control than throwing the Government out of office and calling—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

They were a Labour Government.

[Lord Grocott]

Yes, sadly, they were a Labour Government, and my vote was not enough to enable them to survive. If anyone is in any doubt whatever about the capacity of the House of Commons to do what it needs or wants to do in respect of this or any other piece of legislation, those powers exist already. It does not need any advice from us.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

We all know what the intention of the amendment is: not to improve Brexit but to impale it. What does “meaningful” mean? A meaningful vote seems to be one that somebody has won; then, it is meaningful to them. Otherwise, it appears in certain quarters that “meaningful” is meaningless unless you have won. Was the referendum meaningful? Was the last election meaningful? Apparently not. Was the election to this House of the noble Viscount meaningful? I am sure that it was—although perhaps in hindsight we on these Benches might have done well to have inquired a little more deeply into his passions. It would have made for some fascinating hustings.

The Government have repeatedly promised a meaningful vote. Clearly, if words mean anything, that commitment is inescapable. Let us imagine for one moment that the Government broke that promise and tried to offer an unacceptable vote—or no vote at all. What would happen? There would be fury. There would be uproar in the Commons and all sorts of turmoil in the tea rooms. Your Lordships would beat their noble breasts. Speaker Bercow would be brought to bear. I have no idea whether the rather rude sticker about Brexit that was on the back of his car is still there—I cannot possibly repeat it—but I think we can guess that he would leave no parliamentary stone unturned.

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, was right. The House of Commons has any number of different means to raise this subject. If all else failed, we could surely rely on Mr Corbyn. I know that the prospect terrifies some Members on the Benches opposite; I can see their tight lips and I felt a frisson of anxiety as I mentioned his name. But surely they could rely on their leader to slap down a Motion of no confidence, as happened time and again in 1978 and 1979, as the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said. In other words, the Government cannot under any conceivable circumstances avoid a meaningful vote.

So the amendment is utterly irrelevant. It is also deeply—and, I believe, deliberately—damaging. It is designed to undermine our negotiating position—to confuse, to cause chaos and to give encouragement to EU negotiators to contrive the worst possible outcome, in the hope that some new vote, parliamentary decision or referendum will force Britain into retreat or even to hold up its hands in surrender.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Where is Francis Urquhart?

[Lord Dobbs]

I am glad that the noble Lord is still awake. I take it as a compliment. In 2016, Mr Clegg said clearly that we,

“have to abide by the instruction to quit the EU”.

Note the wording: not “advice”, not “recommendation” but “instruction” of the people to exit the EU. There are those in this House—decent, principled people—who hate the idea of leaving the EU. I understand those feelings. But there are also those in this House who have vowed to do everything they possibly can to destroy Brexit. That is a matter not of principle but of abuse of privilege—a direct attempt not to secure the best for Britain but to drive Brexit on to the rocks. This a wrecker’s amendment and I wish it ill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the first referendum was a mandate to the Government to negotiate Brexit. At the end of the process, a decision has to be taken on whether that mandate has been adequately fulfilled. The only question is whether the Commons alone or the Commons supported by the people should take that final decision.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

With due respect to my noble friend, the first referendum was in 1975, overwhelmingly in favour of the European Union.

[Lord Dobbs]

I point out to the noble Lord that in 1975 the European Union simply did not exist. He keeps coming out with all this imaginative stuff. I wish we could get back to the facts.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dobbs]

My Lords, I shall be brief, but I do not expect it to make me many friends. I cannot believe how many noble Lords have said, “I hate referendums, but I want another one”. It is like falling down the rabbit hole and landing on our heads. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown, said that a second referendum would be decisive. I suggest that it would not be. If there is a second referendum, why not a third referendum or a fourth? A second referendum would not settle the issue; it would only prolong the agony. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, has just explained clearly how extended that uncertainty and agony might prove. Which of those referendums—the second, the third or the fourth—would be, in today’s parlance, the “meaningful” vote?

I have to take the noble Lord, Lord Newby, slightly to task when he responded to the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, about the words of Mr Clegg that he waved in front of him. They had nothing do with the Lisbon treaty. I will quote Mr Clegg. He said:

“It’s time for a real referendum on Europe … Only a real referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU will let the people decide”.


He also asked voters to sign a petition, to give the people “a real choice”. There was not a squeak, not a little chirrup, about a second referendum—no ifs, ands or buts, and no suggestion that people might change their mind.

While we are talking about Lib Dem policy, it is interesting that, in 2011, they forced through the AV referendum Bill. It was their Bill, their policy. I voted against it—I got myself into terrible trouble with my Whips, but I think the noble Lord sitting on the Front Bench has forgiven me. It was a binding vote; it was obligatory. There was no suggestion that we could change our mind. It was, I believe, the only binding referendum in our legislative history. There was no chance of Parliament, let alone the people, changing their mind. That until now has been Lib Dem policy, and I do not believe they can have it both ways.

I talked earlier about Mr Clegg’s position on the instructions of the electorate, so perhaps I may briefly wrap up—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Hear, hear!

[Lord Dobbs]

I am glad to see that the noble Lord is still awake. All I require now is his attention.

Mr Cable spoke 18 months ago, in September 2016, and used these words:

“There are people in the party”—


the Lib Dem party—

“who don’t accept the outcome, who feel incredibly angry and feel it’s reversible, that somehow we can undo it. The public have voted and I do think it’s seriously disrespectful and politically utterly counterproductive to say ‘sorry guys, you’ve got it wrong, we’re going to try again’, I don’t think we can do that”.

I agree with him.

Brexit: European Council and Commission

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Tuesday 27th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I am afraid I just do not agree with the premise of the noble Baroness’s question. We are extremely transparent and very accountable. We published a draft legal text on the implementation period. The EU publishes many documents; we publish many documents. We appear at numerous Select Committees and debates in this House to account for the Government’s strategy. We are committed to being as transparent as possible but, obviously, as is the case with the EU, we do not want to do anything to prejudice our negotiating position.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Tebbit (Con)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

I see that my noble friend is as provocative as ever. We believe in democracy; part of the referendum was about taking back control. I am sure that this House, and the other place, are quite capable of organising our own affairs in the future.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Was that not a waste of a question? You would have thought the noble Lord would have learned by now. Would the Minister now care to try to answer the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, without reading from a pre-arranged brief? Which statement is correct: the first, that everything is agreed; or the second, that we have not agreed in relation to Northern Ireland? Which is correct?

[Lord Callanan]

We have a number of things to discuss with the EU about Northern Ireland. As I said to the noble Lord, it is one of the areas that has not been bottomed out into a legal agreement yet. We are committed to taking those discussions forward with the Commission and the Irish Government, but our red line of having no hard border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic remains, and of course, the indivisibility of the United Kingdom also remains a red line.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Committee: 10th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

I received a copy of a letter from the representative of the Gibraltar Government which indicated that they wanted the noble and learned Baroness to withdraw her amendment. I was surprised at the nature of the comments in that letter. All they seemed to be concerned about was internet gambling and maintaining their rights to provide it to the United Kingdom. If there is one thing many of us would not want them to maintain, it is the right to internet gambling. They did not seem to be concerned about the rights of workers in Gibraltar going over to Spain or workers in Spain coming into Gibraltar, of people travelling, tourists or anything else. I wonder whether the agreement the noble and learned Baroness is lauding is of benefit to ordinary people in Gibraltar or of benefit only to the internet gambling syndicates.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

I have a feeling that the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, has not seen as many of the documents as I have.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, is many things, but he is not a ventriloquist.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

I apologise. I was looking one seat further to the right. However, I feel that the noble Lord has not seen as much of the documentation as I have. I have the strong impression that the Gibraltar Government are extremely concerned about the movement of people, particularly between La Linea and Gibraltar. The agreements between the United Kingdom and Gibraltar Governments on the transition period go far beyond gambling—I am not the least bit interested in gambling—and include all the other areas of interest to the ordinary people of Gibraltar, including education. One of the agreements between the United Kingdom Government and the Gibraltar Government enables Gibraltarians who want education in this country to have it on the same terms as they have always had it and to be treated as if they were UK citizens. That is the kind of thing which is going on.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Chidgey (LD)]

My Lords, I added my name to the amendment after Second Reading, as Members will realise. It has been fascinating listening to some of the debate so far, but I go back to what Amendment 315 would do. It would make it clear that the EU (Withdrawal) Bill does not permit the,

“removing, replacing, altering or prejudicing the exercise”,

of Gibraltar’s acquired rights with reference to the 1972 Act of accession. That is what the amendment says. Some of the comments made so far have been very interesting, but they are not soluble.

The amendment has been tabled because, sadly, it became necessary following Spain’s repeated verbal aggressive claims, and not just those relating to the EU (Withdrawal) Bill. Those of us who have studied Gibraltar’s interests over the years will know that it is a repeated problem in our dealings with Spain over Gibraltar’s rights. It has become necessary because of that behaviour from Spain, particularly the claims to which the European Council and Commission have given unwarranted credence and encouragement. There is no legal validity to paragraph 24 in the European Commission’s Brexit guidelines, proposing a right of veto for all 24 EU members on negotiations over Gibraltar. The inclusion of paragraph 24 in the guidelines detracts from driving a good result for all of the EU and for the UK with Gibraltar. This is why we have tabled the amendment.

In the meantime, I agree with the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, that it is quite right that a wide package of measures has been agreed by the joint ministerial council of the UK and Gibraltar that covers university fees, health, transport, the environment and fishing—much the same as exists already. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, made that point very well. The agreement also includes guarantees on continued reciprocal rights for Gibraltar’s citizens on accessing key services.

As a member of the All-Party Group for Gibraltar for more than a decade and a previous vice-chair, I share the view that Gibraltar must be included in the implementation and future agreements, not just in the negotiations. Over the years, the people of Gibraltar have demonstrated how much they cherish their British sovereignty, which has been well deserved for more than 350 years, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, mentioned. In response to correspondence from the chair of the All-Party Group for Gibraltar, the Prime Minister has given her assurance in writing that the Government are forthright and resolute in their support for Gibraltar. They are determined to defend the interests of the people of Gibraltar in their negotiations with the EU. But it is early days. As many people keep saying about the EU (Withdrawal) Bill, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. Amendment 315 seeks to reinforce in every way the resolve of our Governments and our Parliaments.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Will the noble Lord give way?

[Lord Chidgey]

How could I resist the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes?

[A noble Lord]

Easily.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Very easily. I have been listening to the noble Lord very carefully about the assurances from our Prime Minister. How do they change in any way the claims and the challenges by Spain, which will continue? Do they reduce them in any way whatever?

[Lord Chidgey]

My Lords, who can say? That is the point of this amendment: to try to protect the interests of the United Kingdom and Gibraltar within the framework of the EU withdrawal Bill. It would put down a marker that we are not giving away those rights by virtue of the withdrawal Bill.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

All that the noble Lord and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, spoke of were agreements between the United Kingdom and Gibraltar. They are easy to get, but they do not deal with the continued claim and challenge from Spain. As I understand it, there are those outwith Spain in the European Union who would support Spain on that. How would the amendment make the problem of Gibraltar in coming to a final decision on Brexit any easier? It does not seem any easier because of this agreement.

[Lord Chidgey]

I can only say to the noble Lord that it is quite obvious that we have a long way to go to reach an agreement between the United Kingdom and Spain. It is worth remembering that the issue of the sovereignty of Gibraltar, which is with the UK, has been set in stone and not necessarily agreed by Spain. The offer of any talks about Gibraltar’s future with Spain are set in stone to be entirely dependent on the agreement of Gibraltar. However, further than that we have not gone.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

I am very happy to assure the Committee of that. As I said, we are working closely with the Government and people of Gibraltar. They are at the forefront of our consideration; they are our fellow citizens and our allies. We are working with them, we are co-operating with them and of course, alongside the rest of the negotiations, that will be one of our priorities.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Perhaps the Minister will give way. He mentioned online gambling and financial markets, perhaps looking after the interests of people who are already quite well off. What about the workers who travel across from Spain to Gibraltar and vice versa? What about the tourists? What about ordinary people? There seem to be no guarantees. It all seems to have been done to look after the financial interests of the gamblers and the financial markets.

[Lord Callanan]

I am sorry that the noble Lord has a retrograde opinion on these matters. It may shock him to know that many ordinary people take part in online gambling and indulge in financial services. In fact, many of the workers that he refers to work in those areas, so perhaps he should not apply to everyone else the same prejudices that he has. They are successful industries that employ a lot of people. They are perfectly legal and people have a right to engage in them.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I do not know whether the noble Lord sits in on any of our debates other than those on the Bill. I have been sitting in at Question Time and other debates—it is good to see three Bishops here today—where concerns have been expressed about online gambling and the effect that it has on ordinary people who get caught up in and become addicted to it. If the noble Lord does not understand concerns about that, he is missing an awful lot of the debates that go on in this House.

[Lord Callanan]

Of course I understand those concerns and why the industry needs to be properly regulated. That is being done and we are working with Gibraltar to ensure consistent regulation across the two territories. But of course that is not a matter for the Bill, I am pleased to say.

I hope that, with those reassurances, I have addressed the noble and learned Baroness’s concerns—

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I really think that in this point in the debate it is best if people do not revert back to what people said in 2016 or I shall start talking about what people wrote on the side of a bus. It would be completely unproductive.

With the amendment in my name, we are also debating referendum amendments in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Foulkes. There are slight differences in emphasis between them, but on one thing we are all agreed: Brexit is the most important decision that this country will face for decades. Every person in the country will be profoundly affected by it and so every person should have their say on whether it is a future that they wish to embrace.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I beg leave to move Amendment 357 in my name.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Countess of Mar) (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lord will not be moving his amendment at this stage: he will be speaking to it.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Well then, I will speak to it.

[Lord Garel-Jones]

May I say something?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

All right.

[Lord Garel-Jones]

One of the interesting aspects of our country is that, unlike almost every other country in the world, we do not have a written constitution. Britain’s unwritten constitution could be summed up in one sentence—Parliament is supreme. I myself take the Thatcherite view on referendums, as indeed does my noble friend Lord Patten, but since this particular referendum was approved by Parliament, like it or not, I have to accept it. However, I remind the House of the Supreme Court’s ruling on this matter, of which quite by chance I happen to have a copy in my pocket:

“The 2016 referendum is of great political significance. However, its legal significance is determined by what Parliament included in the statute authorising it, and that statute simply provided for the referendum to be held without specifying the consequences. The change in the law required to implement the referendum’s outcome must be made in the only way permitted by the UK constitution, namely by legislation”.


That means that the outcome of these discussions must be laid before Parliament, and given that our unwritten constitution gives that right to Parliament, I have no doubt whatever that Her Majesty’s Government will abide by our unwritten constitution—the supremacy of Parliament.

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[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that Baroness Thatcher’s last vote in the House of Commons made in February 1992 was in favour of a referendum on the Maastricht treaty? She was nothing if not inconsistent on these matters.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, is it okay to speak now? I must apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Garel-Jones, for whom I have the greatest respect. I am glad that he got in to speak because if he had not, we would not have had the pearls of wisdom not only from him but from the noble Lord, Lord Patten, all of which I agree with. They have contributed greatly to our debate.

I shall speak to Amendment 357 and in support of the amendments tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Newby, which reflects if not all-party support, at least cross-party support. I apologise too for being a couple of minutes late for the start of the debate on this group of amendments, but I had not realised that the Bill is going through at breakneck speed today. Something has gone wrong. However, I am not sure that all of my colleagues would have minded if I had not made it at all because my party, or at least some in it, has not yet come around to supporting a new referendum; that is, not a second one, but a new one on the terms. I will make a rash prediction: they will eventually come around to supporting a new referendum because the vast majority of Labour members and supporters are in favour of one. If the leadership of my party is at all wise, it will come around to realising that it is not sensible to go against the views of the majority of our supporters.

Like other speakers and those who have intervened, I have never been a fan of referenda. It is right to point out that from time to time they have been used by dictators to advance their causes. People vote on other issues and they can be easily manipulated. We saw how this referendum was manipulated. It now appears that some things were happening from outside the United Kingdom that we did not even know about. But we did see people within the United Kingdom manipulating it. I will not go over what was on the side of the bus again or the other things that were said which have turned out to be—I will not use the word “lies”—pieces of misinformation given to the British people. If for no other reason than that, the British people should be given the opportunity to think again, although of course there are a lot of other reasons.

It was an advisory referendum. As I have said in the House before, what I find is the most astonishing, disturbing and upsetting thing is that normally intelligent, bright, clever and able people know that we are heading towards a disaster, yet they continue to say, “But we must move in that direction because, ‘The British people said so’”, thus ignoring the fact that it was an advisory referendum and all the other problems associated with it.

As I have said before, the franchise in Scotland for the Scottish referendum allowed 16 and 17-year olds—I will come back to that later—and European Union citizens to vote. The European Union referendum did not. Is it not crazy that European Union citizens were able to vote on the future of Scotland but not on the future of the United Kingdom in Europe?

[Lord Green of Deddington (CB)]

The noble Lord mentioned the possibility of European Union citizens voting in a referendum—and, of course, the question of franchise is referred to in Amendment 226. Is he aware that there are approximately 3.7 million EU citizens in the UK—not all of them adults, but certainly a couple of million or so who could vote—who could very well swing it? Is there anything more absurd than imagining that the future of this country would be determined by people who are not even citizens of it?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

It is not absurd at all. It is sensible because those people are taxpayers—at least most of them are. The noble Lord sniggers; he is an expert sniggerer. These people are taxpayers who are contributing to our society. As I said on a couple of previous occasions, there used to be a phrase, “No taxation without representation”. Those people are being taxed and they deserve the opportunity to have their say.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I was timing it to see how long it would be before the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, rose.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I am intrigued by the idea of the noble Lord that anyone who is a taxpayer should have a vote. Does he think that every American or Chinese person—or anyone from any part of the world—who lives here and pays taxes should have a vote? It is a ridiculous proposition.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

A lot of Commonwealth citizens are able to vote. A lot of people have a vote—but these are European Union citizens talking about our membership of the European Union. It seems to me to be a logical proposition.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord was advancing the proposition that if you pay taxes here, you should have a vote. Does he now recognise that that is a silly argument?

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I was answering a question. I was talking about European Union citizens who are taxpayers here—and I think most Members of this House understood that.

One of the blights of the referendum, apart from the facts of the flawed franchise and the misinformation, was the differential result. In replying to this, everyone tells me, “It was a referendum for the whole United Kingdom”. Nevertheless, some of the problems created were caused by that differential result. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, will know that in Scotland, this is fuelling nationalism and giving greater purchase to the SNP’s arguments. In Northern Ireland—I will not go into the problems because my noble friend Lord Hain articulated them brilliantly in a previous debate—there are real problems and absolutely no solutions put forward by the Government. It was a differential vote. London was overwhelmingly in favour of European Union membership, and one of the most insidious and difficult problems—which is not being talked about very much but will cause huge problems—is Gibraltar. It voted overwhelmingly—98% or 99%—to stay in the European Union, yet we will be dragging it out against its will if we go ahead. That will cause tremendous problems.

Like other noble Lords, I would argue—as I have done before—that this a parliamentary democracy and Parliament must make the decision. I did that in relation to this advisory referendum. As noble Lords—including the noble Lord, Lord Newby—said, Parliament should decide, but I accept the very strong argument that, since we went down this road on a referendum, we need to change tack by using one. I hope that the franchise will be better; I hope that European Union citizens and youngsters—16 and 17 year-olds—will be allowed to vote. On Friday, I went to George Heriot’s School in Edinburgh—a private school—and took part in a debate. I argued that the charitable status—I am nothing if not foolhardy—of private schools should be withdrawn. I was defeated, which will come as no surprise to Members. I did get 18 votes, by the way, which shows that there are some intelligent people in private schools—but I was overwhelmingly defeated. Afterwards, I said, “I think I should’ve come in and argued that we should remain in the European Union”—and I got overwhelming support. The youngsters know where their future lies. It is affecting them. I say with no disrespect, looking around the Chamber, that there are not many noble Lords here who will be affected for as long as those young people. So I hope they will be able to have a vote as well.

This argument is a very strong one. We are not talking about a second referendum; we are talking about a completely different thing. The noble Baroness opposite asked what the alternative would be if we rejected the negotiated deal. The alternative is very clear: the status quo. We are members of the European Union and we are doing well as a member of the European Union— although, day by day, with the prospect of Brexit, we are suffering some of the effects of it. The sooner we get out of this Brexit—

[A noble Lord]

Quagmire.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Quagmire. I was trying to think of a word that implied rushing towards it like the lemmings I described the other day.

[A noble Lord]

Suicide.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am grateful to my noble friend—this is a wonderful House, where you get so much support in so many ways. The sooner we get out of this and return to the status quo that has done this country proud for the past 40 years, the better.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, I put my name to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Newby, when it was Amendment 181. I would have put my name to his amendment today but I did not have the opportunity to do so over the weekend.

In my speech at Second Reading I agreed with others that this is not an appropriate vehicle to require a further referendum on our leaving the European Union. However, I said that I would support any amendments necessary to ensure that a further referendum would be among the options in Parliament’s meaningful vote at the conclusion of the negotiations. The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Newby, is such an amendment.

I have feared throughout that the choice the Government intend to give Parliament at the conclusion of the negotiations is, “this agreement or no agreement”. I am sorry to say that what the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, said in our debate last Wednesday confirmed that this is indeed the Government’s intention. I hope that he will tell me I am wrong, but I think it was clear from what he said last week that that is what the Government propose to do. Of course, we must all hope that the agreement that emerges from the negotiations will be good for the UK—but the Prime Minister has famously said that no agreement would be better than a bad agreement. It would be entirely wrong if the only choice given to Parliament at the end of the negotiations was between an agreement, however bad, or no agreement at all. I know that the Prime Minister and the Government feel that they have an instruction from the people to take Britain out of the EU—but I cannot believe that a bad agreement is a correct interpretation of the wishes of a majority of the people as expressed in the referendum. If Parliament judges the outcome of the negotiations to be bad, a better alternative must be to think again before we drive the nation over a cliff.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Newby, I cannot get out of my mind my noble friend Lord Lisvane’s aunts, whom he described so graphically at Second Reading. If, having voted to go to cinema, they find that the two films available are ones they do not want to see, the only sensible course must be to think again about going to the cinema at all. If that is true for my noble friend’s aunts on a Saturday evening, I suggest that it is certainly true for the nation as a whole in one of the most important decisions that we will have to make in our generation.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, the noble Lord asked a question. It would not matter what kind of deal we got if we had a second referendum, the noble Lord would vote for us to remain in the European Union. Every single one of the speakers we have heard, and most of the people who support a second referendum, reject the decision of the British people to leave the European Union.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, insists on calling it a second referendum. It is not. If he is so furled to numerology, it is actually a third referendum because we had one in 1975.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The intention is clear. I am shocked, actually, at the noble Lord. He says that he is a unionist but in the debates on the Bill he has propounded the view that the Scottish Parliament should have a veto on legislation passed by this Parliament, and now he is arguing that it is important that people have the opportunity to reconsider their decision after a referendum in which a commitment was made to implement the result. How is that going to play in Scotland, where we have a Scottish Government and a Parliament where a majority voted for independence in a referendum? The words that the noble Lord keeps trotting out—that there should be an opportunity to rethink—will be played back by the nationalists and people who want to break up the United Kingdom. This is irresponsible.

We all know that at the moment both Houses of this Parliament are held with a degree of contempt by the electorate. How are they going to react if, having voted in the biggest vote in our history, this Parliament were to decide to reverse it? There is no danger of that because both this House and the House of Commons voted overwhelmingly to reject the idea of having another referendum.