Operation of Air Services (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Wednesday 21st November 2018 Grand Committee

I commend these regulations to the Committee.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, this is really the most extraordinary debate in which I have ever taken part. I say this with no disrespect to the low key introduction by the Minister in which she explained exactly what is happening—at least the detail, but not the context of it. Sitting in this Committee Room are a number of Members of the House and officials who would be much better occupied doing something useful. We are looking at a proposal—a statutory instrument—for a no-deal situation which the Government do not want and which the vast majority of people in the House of Commons do not want. We are going to spend hours dealing with many more.

This is one of nearly 700 statutory instruments that are coming before us because of this crazy Brexit in which we are currently involved. Even allowing for all those qualifications and even if we have to, this is not a satisfactory way of doing it. This has such major implications that it would normally be in a Bill discussed on the Floor of the House at Second Reading and then in detailed consideration in Committee. We would go through all the implications, discuss them, consider amendments and work out what was wrong and what was right. Now we are expecting it to go through on the nod in this Grand Committee. I hope not to spoil these expectations—it might do. It is not a satisfactory way of dealing with the situation.

Then we get the report of Sub-Committee A of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. This Committee has had to divide into two sub-committees. My noble friend Lord Cunningham has taken over the duty of chairing the second sub-committee to look at this in detail. They are doing a good job under very difficult circumstances. On this statutory instrument they have come up with a devastating report—one of the most devastating I have seen:

“We draw these Regulations to the special attention of the House on the ground that they give rise to issues of public policy likely to be of interest to the House”.


It continues in paragraph 11:

“The House may wish nonetheless to press the Minister further on how, in the event of “no deal”, bilateral arrangements between the UK and individual states will be put in place before exit day to ensure there is no gap in the continuation of flights between the UK and the EU after 29 March 2019”.


The Minister dealt to some extent with that, but not fully, and I shall come to the detail of that later. Paragraphs 13 and 16 outline the additional responsibilities that the CAA will have and doubt whether it will be able to deal with them without substantial additional resources—which, again, would be better spent elsewhere instead of doing something completely unnecessary. Paragraph 22 states:

“The House may wish to press the Minister on the issues of reciprocity that arise in maintaining the current wet leasing arrangements”.


I have not previously seen a report that raises so many questions.

Look at what is happening outside the Chamber. In an excellent report by Chris Morris, the BBC’s Reality Check correspondent—thank goodness that we have people doing reality checks particularly on Brexit—he points out that if we leave with no withdrawal agreement,

“the UK would no longer be part of the EU’s single aviation market, which is the basis for flights in and out of the country at the moment, not just to the EU itself, but to other countries with which the EU has a deal—such as the United States and Canada. In all, the EU governs direct UK aviation access to 44 other countries”.

As the Minister said, and as the report states, of course, you can always negotiate new agreements,

“but access would start at a pretty low level and negotiations take time”.

We know that they will take a substantial time. He continued:

“That's why a sudden no-deal scenario is so alarming to the industry”.


That was even pointed out by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in October last year:

“The UK would no longer be governed by the regulations of the European Aviation Safety Agency, which deal with all sorts of things like maintenance and common standards”.


As the report states, we would have to undertake the responsibility of dealing with those ourselves—again, extra expenditure:

“The UK Civil Aviation Authority could … take on all the same rules, and hire lots of new staff to implement and oversee them, but it would”,


then have not only the extra expenditure, but,

“have to convince other international regulators to recognise it—another time-consuming process”.

So we would have to go round to convince all the other regulators that they should recognise our approach. As the Reality Check correspondent said,

“if you're following EU aviation rules in full, you basically have to accept a role for EU courts like the European Court of Justice as well”.

According to the Prime Minister, we will no longer be subject to the European Court of Justice, but it will be involved in this, according to the BBC report. All of this makes it difficult for airlines that are already selling tickets for flights after the planned Brexit, which many of us here hope will not go ahead. The report continues:

“‘Right now we will continue to sell in the hope and belief that when a conclusion comes to the Brexit scenario, common sense will prevail and people will realise the need for intra-Europe travel’, said Roy Kinnear, the chief commercial officer of FlyBe. ‘The biggest fear has to be if at the eleventh hour and fifty-ninth minute there is a complete cessation and breakdown, and a shutdown of air travel between the UK and Europe”.


It is being predicted that they could be a total shutdown of traffic between the United Kingdom and Europe.

The International Air Transport Authority is worried. IATA states:

“The UK government’s papers on the air transport implications of a “no deal” departure from the EU clearly exposes the extreme seriousness of what is at stake and underscores the huge amount of work that would be required to maintain vital air links”.


Its director-general said:

“While we still hope for a comprehensive EU-UK deal, an assumption that ‘it will be all right on the night’ is far too risky to accept”.


That is what the Government are accepting: it will be all right on the night. We have heard them say something equivalent to that so many occasions.

I could go on at great length; I have lots more to say.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Well, the Minister is encouraging me to do that. Lots more could be said.

The development of low-cost airlines, which we and—I was going to say “our” constituents—the constituents of Members of the other place have all taken advantage of, has been based on arrangements agreed within the European Union, which we have been part of.

I have a specific question for the Minister. Access to the EU’s internal market for air transport could be retained by the UK joining the European common aviation area. Membership is not restricted to EU member states. However, membership would require the UK to accept EU aviation laws and may be incompatible with the stated desire of the UK Government to be extricated from the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union. Given the awful prospect of no deal, which almost all of us pray will not happen, will we consider joining the ECAA and therefore accept the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice?

The question of leasing was also raised by the committee. At present, aircraft owned by or leased to nationals of, or companies with their principal base of business or registered office in, the EEA and the Commonwealth, may be registered in the United Kingdom. Will this ability to register aircraft on the UK aircraft register be open to EEA entities post Brexit?

The airlines have made various comments. Michael O’Leary, the outspoken chief executive—I do not think that he has been got rid of yet—of Ryanair, said that a no-deal Brexit was now more likely and that, in such a scenario, flights would be grounded. IAG, which owns British Airways, Iberia and Aer Lingus, was more positive in its assessment. Willie Walsh—wee Willie Walsh—said in March that he firmly believed that the issue of flying rights would be resolved. Well, what I understand it to have done to resolve it is move its headquarters out of London to Madrid—that is a strange way of resolving it—like many others are moving out of London because of Brexit.

This is a total disaster. I hope that the Minister will answer the questions. I hope that she will try hard to give some reassurance, although I do not think she can. However, if there is no such reassurance, I shall not be prepared to accept this statutory instrument today.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from my noble friend’s excellent summary of where we are, I recall a couple of weeks ago in debate on an Oral Question in the Chamber suggesting to a Minister that the safest way would be for the Government to advise people not to buy package holidays that started on or after 30 March, because there is no compensation at the moment and the planes might not fly. The Minister thoroughly rejected that idea, as of course he would.

I hope that the Minister will respond to my noble friend’s reference to the comments in the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s report. I do not want to repeat them, but they are highly complex. For the CAA to have to give out route licences as well as operating licences looks to be a recipe for not having enough people and, as my noble friend said, for grounding. The same applies in respect of paragraph 16, so I shall not go on to that.

I am very disappointed with what is listed under “transport” in the political declaration that came out last week. As somebody else has said, it is a series of statements without verbs. It states that the parties intend to have a comprehensive air transport agreement. Well, they might do, but they have a lot of work to do. It refers to:

“Comparable market access for freight and passenger road transport”,


and acknowledges the intention of the UK and other member states,

“to make bilateral arrangements for cross-border rail”.

That is all on rail; there was nothing else on it at all. It also says that the maritime transport sector would be underpinned by,

“the applicable international legal framework, with appropriate arrangements for cooperation on … safety and security”.

When will we see the SIs covering these other sectors that we have not seen already? We will want to have a pretty detailed debate on them.

My noble friend mentioned safety and maintenance. They are extremely important. I will raise the question of standards across the various sectors. I wrote to the Minister a couple of weeks ago on railway standards. She kindly replied today so I have not been able to circulate her reply around, but I will do so. It exposes quite a significant difference of approach between different parts of the Department for Transport. The Minister’s response on railway standards is basically that, although the Government would like to be able to have their own standards for domestic traffic, they would do this only after substantial consultation with the industry. That sounds fine. The industry, which I will not quote now, is very much in favour of staying in the European railway agency because of the international need to have one common set of standards across the world for ease of manufacturing and exporting as much as anything.

The same applies to the road sector with automotive manufacturing. The CEO of the SMMT, Mike Hawes, gave some very interesting evidence to the House of Lords EU Internal Market Sub-Committee recently, saying:

“The major regulatory powerhouses tend to be the EU, especially around the environment but also safety, and the US”,

but they are very different and demonstrate very different approaches to policy, particularly on safety and the environment. He says that the EU is highly influential. The same comments could equally apply to air. I am interested to see what the sub-committee says when it reports.

However, last week the Secretary of State said when he gave evidence to the same sub-committee that breaking away from the EU will mean that the UK can rip up the rulebook and set its own standards for sectors such as rail. He sees no reason why the country should be made to abide by European regulations. He told the sub-committee that there was no need to remain part of the European rail regulatory body as the country’s rail systems vary in a vast number of ways from that of continental Europe, but the only example that he could give was station platform heights, which is just crazy. Station platforms for HS2 might need to be a little bit different, but there are many more stations that HS2 trains will go into that will not be affected. Presumably the Secretary of State has the same views on other sectors, such as road and air. Why does he have that view? The Minister’s statement now and her letter to me seem to have a much more balanced approach to standards, recognising that all the industry sectors in transport want to keep close alignment with the standards for very good safety, exporting and general manufacture reasons.

I also have one or two questions on the regulations themselves. The first is on the PSOs, which the Minister mentioned. It is good that they want to continue with the use of PSOs but will there be a similar need for regulations for other modes such as the bus, rail and maritime sectors in this country? If so, when will we see those and if not, why not?

Paragraph 2.5 of the draft Explanatory Memorandum, as the Minister said, says:

“The Regulation will now reflect … that”,


the legislation,

“applies only within the UK”.

How will air carriers from outside the UK be able to apply for licences to operate either into or within the UK? Who do they apply to and how long is it going to take to operate?

My noble friend talked about British Airways and IAG. I have a big problem with IAG because I tried to fly to Madrid on Friday and I was denied boarding at Heathrow—the wonderful new terminal 5. It was particularly galling when I had got up at 4 am to get to the airport. The point was that I could not check in on the web because I had bought the ticket through Iberia, which along with British Airways is part of AIG, and it said online, “Go to the British Airways check-in” because it was a British Airways flight. So I went there and it said, “Go back to Iberia”. I did that three or four times and swore, then I left it and went to the airport, where they said the flight was full. I said “Well, I’ve got a ticket”, so they sent me to the gate and it was still full. It is so nice in terminal 5 because you cannot come back from its satellites by train; you have to walk through a long tunnel.

I got the standard European compensation very quickly and was promised a refund of the fare, because the next flight would have been too late. I said, “Could you cancel my flight back in the evening?”. She said, “You’re on an Iberia flight—I can’t cancel it”. Now this is one company. I do not know whether the company will be based in London, Madrid or Timbuktu, but if it cannot get its act together when it is one of the biggest operators out of the UK, heaven help us. I certainly shall not fly with it in the run-up to Brexit, if I can avoid it. I hope that other people will not have the same problem and that it will be all right on the night.

Paragraph 7.7 of the draft memorandum refers to:

“The discretion given to EU Member States to regulate the distribution of traffic rights and impose measures”.


Who does that? It is yet more extra work, maybe for the CAA or the Government. Paragraph 7.9 refers to,

“a permit in order to perform aerial work”.

I find the definition of aerial work slightly confusing. Is it about running a drone, aerial photography or what? Again, that seems to be a bit more work for the CAA. Finally, the Committee may be glad to hear, paragraph 7.11 refers to when operating air services to the EU is revoked and says that,

“all air carriers operating international air services from the UK will require a route licence”.

That is what we said before; who is going to negotiate the route licences and operating licences?

As my noble friend said, this will end in chaos. We are pretty well there. There seems to be no agreement even between different parts of the Department for Transport and the Ministers, and I share my noble friend’s view that the only solution is to stay within the EU.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their consideration of these draft regulations. A wide array of issues has been raised but I will limit my responses to those directly related to the SI that we are discussing, given the time and the number of questions. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that issues around aviation and Brexit are incredibly important and it is important that we get them right. However, this SI is not about our negotiating position, which is being discussed extensively elsewhere; it is purely correcting the regulations to ensure that we have a functioning statute book should we leave with no deal in March.

I am not quite sure that I agree that this is one of the most devastating reports from the SLSC that I have seen. The committee often quite rightly draws SIs to the special attention of the House, and I and the rest of the Government are very grateful for its work on that. I am also grateful to the noble Lord for reading out the BBC report, which is quite right in its facts. I hope I can provide some further assurances as we go through the questions.

I turn to the points raised by the SLSC, to which many noble Lords referred in their questions. I shall take each point in turn. First, on how, in the event of no deal, we will ensure that bilateral arrangements are in place to ensure that there is no gap—the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, is quite right to point out that it is important that there is no gap—we remain confident that we will get an agreement on a broader deal. However, if that is not possible, our first option will be to consider a multilateral agreement between the UK and the EU. The Commission has also proposed this, with suggestions for a bare-bones agreement in the event of no deal. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, is right to point out that the statement from the Commission on 13 November is its latest position on that in the negotiation, and it will form part of the conversation as we go through the detail. In the meantime, in the event of no broader deal and no multilateral deal, both of which we fully expect to reach, we have also reached out to counterparts in individual member states to reach a shared understanding on a bilateral basis of what arrangements would apply between our two countries.

The second issue specifically raised by the SLSC is the resources that the Government are providing to the CAA. The CAA is already the licensing authority for UK airlines. It provides regulatory oversight and has the resources in place to ensure that it can continue to do so. All the holders of type A operating licences—that is, operators of aircraft with more than 20 seats—already have a route licence. All the holders of type B operating licences have been individually contacted and invited to apply for a route licence free of charge, as I mentioned before, from the CAA. Some of those companies operate exclusively domestic services and do not need a route licence, but we are confident that those that need a route licence will be issued one.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I have just realised the implications of something the Minister said a couple of minutes ago. As well as a multilateral agreement with the EU, we are negotiating bilateral agreements with all 27 countries—is that right? Could the Minister explain if this is what we are doing?

[Baroness Sugg]

As I said, our firm preference is for a wider deal, providing for a comprehensive air services agreement with the EU. Failing that, we have the option of a multilateral agreement and, failing that, bilateral agreements with member states. As the noble Lord would expect, we are speaking to member states about a wide range of issues.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Is a Minister—either the noble Baroness or one of her colleagues—or some of the officials flying out to these countries to discuss it, or are they coming here? An astonishing range of what I hope is unnecessary activity is taking place. Could the Minister confirm that that is exactly what is happening?

[Baroness Sugg]

As I said, to make responsible preparations it is important to consider all the different options available to us. Of course we are having conversations with the Commission and the member states about a wide range of issues. I am not able to give further detailed information at this moment but our preference is very strongly for a broader deal which will provide a liberalised agreement with the EU, though there are other options available to us. I hope this provides reassurance that we will continue to see flights between the UK and the EU. We will continue to work towards this as we move towards exit day.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sugg]

I will come on to that. As the UK, we have 111 bilateral agreements with the rest of the world in our own right. The noble Baroness is quite right to point out that we have bilateral agreements through our membership of the EU.

The next issue raised was on the basis of our expectations, how we are working with EU carriers to make sure that we have no gap in services and the assurances we can give that the CAA has the capacity and resources in place. Our expectation is that EEA carriers would require advance permission before operating to the UK. This is founded on international law. I already spoke about the 1944 Chicago Convention and that that treaty expressly prohibits scheduled international air services.

In anticipation of the increased volume of permit applications from EEA carriers, the CAA has already upgraded its systems for permit processing and recruited additional staff. All scheduled permits are issued on a seasonal basis. The next summer season starts on 31 March 2019, so there is a predictable increase in workload for this. We are expecting 100 to 150 seasonal permit applications. The CAA currently issues around 3,000 ad hoc permits a year. It is preparing to be able to process at least double that if necessary.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

How many additional staff have already been recruited to the CAA and how many more does the Minister expect to be recruited?

[Baroness Sugg]

I do not have those specific numbers, but we are reassured that the CAA is fully prepared. We have already allocated it some funding from the Treasury to ensure that it has the proper resources in place.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes) (Con)]

The Question is that this Motion be agreed to.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Not content.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, I must remind the Grand Committee that the Motion before it is to consider—I emphasise the word “consider”—the regulations, not to approve them. Whatever happens here in the Grand Committee, the Government will need to table an approval Motion in the Chamber, where any Member concerned can properly register disagreement. I also remind the Grand Committee, as contained in paragraph 3.13 on page 29 of the Companion, that we cannot have a vote in Grand Committee. With that in mind, I put the Question again. The Question is that this Motion—I emphasise, the Motion being to consider the regulations—be agreed to.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Not content.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

I am sorry, my Lords, we cannot have a vote within the Grand Committee. The Motion is therefore negatived.