Liaison Committee

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

My Lords, the noble Lords, Lord Jopling, Lord Grenfell and Lord Jay, have put their finger on a fundamental point. I know that the Chairman of Committees—the noble Lord, Lord Sewel—is struggling in this very difficult task of trying to make all ends meet and to accommodate all the pressures, but there is the most enormous gap with regard to foreign affairs. The world is changing. We have plenty of complex business to do with Europe and we should have good committees focusing on that. However, the IMF tells us that the whole of Europe will contribute only 17% to the world’s GNP in four years’ time. It is, alas, shrinking in an expanding world. There is a vast new area of interest to cover. Our friends in the other place can cover some of it but under their remit they cannot begin to cover all the issues. The expertise, wisdom and understanding about how we cope with this new world are here in this House. Not to have a committee focusing on it is, to my mind, verging on a tragedy. The matter should be given consideration in the future, in the way that my noble friend Lord Jopling put with such eloquence.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I do not disagree with what has been said about a foreign affairs committee—quite the reverse, I agree completely. I want to range a little more widely. First, I welcome the fact that the House is discussing the report of one of our domestic committees. We should do this more often. There are a lot of things happening around and about the House that individual Members of the House know very little about. It is good that the Chairman of Committees comes here and explains what is happening in the Liaison Committee. Lest anything I say subsequently be construed as criticism of the Chairman of Committees, I say quite equivocally that he is doing a good job—on the whole.

We have discussed the future of the Lords on innumerable occasions. We have referred to our work in dealing with, reviewing and revising legislation. We have excellent debates—and commend ourselves and pat ourselves on the back for their excellence. But one of our most important responsibilities is the third responsibility: scrutiny. The Chairman of Committees will have received a letter from the chairmen of all the Select Committees, asking for more debates on Select Committee reports. The letter states that it is repeatedly recognised, both inside and outside the House of Lords, that our Select Committees are among the most important, effective and well-regarded elements of our work. Therefore, they should be given greater support by the House, the Liaison Committee and the officers and administration of the House.

Will the Chairman of Committees confirm that the Liaison Committee has been cash limited in its consideration of this matter, so that to create new committees—I welcome all five of them—it has had to cut back on the good work of all the others? The Science and Technology Committee, which has done a great deal of good work, has been cut, as the Chairman admitted. The noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and others complained about that. It did remarkably good work, hailed as excellent not just in Britain but abroad.

The European Union Select Committee now has one sub-committee fewer. That means the other sub-committees work harder. I am surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch, does not like them because these sub-committees scrutinise in great detail what comes from the European Union, challenging and questioning it. I would have thought that that was what he was in the business for. We do a good job on his behalf—well, almost—challenging and questioning what comes out of Europe.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, the noble Lord is very generous. The point I made was that we have seven European Union sub-committees whereas the House of Commons makes do with one. I also made the point that the conclusions of our seven European Unions sub-committees carry very little weight in Brussels. Furthermore, the scrutiny reserve has been overridden over 400 times in the last two years. Of course I agree that the other committees of your Lordships’ House are hugely valuable. They are taken very seriously nationally and we should have more of them. However, I believe that we should have fewer European Union sub-committees. I do not see why we cannot make do with one, as the House of Commons does.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I think I was too generous to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson. I have been in Brussels twice recently. Everyone I came across there—the officials and commissioners—without hesitation or exception said that they recognise and respect the work of the House of Lords European Union Select Committee and its sub-committees. That came out loud and clear and I pass it on. The trouble is that we are limited. We wanted to travel more but cannot because of the limitations on cost.

Perhaps I may now deal with the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy. I was really astonished by the response from the Liaison Committees here and in the other place. There is a National Security Council, which the Government have set up to take an across-the-board look at all aspects not just of defence and foreign affairs, but of energy security, cybersecurity and a whole range of things. The National Security Council is a powerful body in the country, and the Joint Committee is the parliamentary scrutiny and control over it. The committee just wanted to set up a sub-committee, but because of a lack of resources it is not allowed to do so. The committee consists of people with great expertise—chairmen of Select Committees in the House of Commons, people who used to be heads of, or used to work for, intelligence agencies in this country, and people who worked on the Intelligence and Security Committee. The Joint Committee is one of the most influential committees and is being constrained in its work.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, perhaps I may reinforce the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, that one of the great advantages of bringing a report of this kind to your Lordships’ House is that it gives members of the committee, of which I am one, the opportunity to hear the views of the House. I am sure that every member of the committee who is here today has paid great attention to this debate and that it will be taken forward when we next meet.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am sure the Chairman of Committees would not wish to conclude without answering my questions on the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, before the noble Lord answers the question on the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy, of which I am member, I have to say that this House would benefit more from an effective foreign affairs committee than it does from what I regard as an ineffective Joint Committee on Security. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that unless that committee can be made effective—it does require the ability to set up sub-committees in order to do its work, but I shall not labour that point at the moment—we would be better off concentrating our efforts on a committee that is supported and will work, rather than taking part in a Joint Committee which, at the moment, does not have a particularly good future.