Liaison Committee

Lord Pearson of Rannoch Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel)]

My Lords, the Liaison Committee’s report this time last year reviewed existing Select Committee activity and recommended an additional unit of committee activity, and a reduction in the resources available to the European Union Committee and the Science and Technology Committee to enable the redeployment of resources to support two new ad hoc committees and the appointment of an ad hoc post-legislative scrutiny committee. Over the past two months, the Liaison Committee has reviewed existing Select Committee activity in the light of these changes. Both this year and last, we discussed the work of the Communications Committee with its chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, and concluded that the Communications Committee should be appointed as a sessional committee at the start of the 2013-14 Session. I have to point out that there is no resource impact arising from this recommendation.

We also considered a proposal to extend the orders of reference of the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy to enable it to appoint a sub-committee. The Joint Committee already meets more than the three to four times a year which was originally envisaged and is well supported by Members of your Lordships’ House. The House of Commons Liaison Committee considered the Joint Committee’s proposal for a power to establish a sub-committee at its meeting on 27 February, and declined to support it. The House of Lords Liaison Committee did not support an increase in the Joint Committee’s resources and instead suggested that further thought should be given to the size and composition of the Joint Committee’s membership.

Last year, we recommended that, from the start of the 2012-13 Session, the number of sub-committees of the European Union Committee should be reduced from seven to six. We also recommended that the Science and Technology Committee should be allocated the resource of a single Select Committee. As we acknowledged in our report, this decision caused considerable unhappiness. As the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, chairman of the Science and Technology Committee explained, previously, the committee had the resources to conduct two units of activity at once. The reduction in resource to three staff members had required the committee to undertake one unit of activity rather than two, and the committee no longer had a sub-committee. In the past, the committee has typically alternated a long inquiry with a short one. The committee has been severely constrained in the present Session by having to drop the second simultaneous inquiry.

We recognise the important contribution of the European Union Committee and Science and Technology Committee to the committee work of the House. We believe, however, that the restructuring of committee activity which took effect at the start of the present Session needs further time to bed down. The reduction in resources for the EU and Science and Technology Committee in the present Session enabled an expansion of ad hoc committee activity. This has been a step change for the House of Lords, and has included the first ever House of Lords post-legislative scrutiny committee. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, chairman of the Select Committee on Adoption Legislation, the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley, chairman of the Select Committee on Small and Medium Sized Enterprises and Exports, and the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, chairman of the Select Committee on Public Service and Demographic Change, were unanimous in their enthusiasm for the work of their committees, the commitment of the members and the support provided by the committee staff. We consider that the three new ad hoc committees have worked very well during this Session.

I encouraged Members from all sides of the House to put forward ideas for new committee activity for the next Session, and was delighted by the response. We considered the proposals received against the criteria set out in the original Leader’s Group report on the matter. I am delighted to report that the House Committee has agreed in principle that funds can be made available to support the work of a further additional unit of committee activity in 2013-14. This is at a cost of approximately £225,000.

This increase in activity can be managed without affecting the House’s overall aim not to increase our resource costs in real terms, partly as a result of savings that have been made in other areas. As an example, Members will be aware of savings being made through reducing the number of days on which mail is forwarded and removing linen hand towels, and of significant savings being made by making more documents available online, thereby leading to the reduction in printing costs. I am fully aware that not all of these savings initiatives met with universal acclaim at the time, but it is true that the savings that we have made in these areas have enabled resource to be redirected to support the core activities of the House. That is something to recognise and support.

The new Select Committees that are going to be set up are in addition to the extra unit of committee activity agreed to by the House Committee and the House this time last year. The Liaison Committee also decided to recommend two shorter, ad hoc committee inquiries to run consecutively. This means that we have been able to recommend ad hoc committees on five subjects, as follows: first, a committee on the use of soft power in promoting the UK’s interests abroad; secondly, a committee on the strategic issues for regeneration and sporting legacy from the Olympics and Paralympic Games, to report by late 2013; thirdly, a committee on the consequences of the use of personal service companies for tax collection, following the completion of the work of the committee on the Olympic and Paralympic Games legacy; fourthly, a post-legislative scrutiny committee to examine the Mental Capacity Act 2005; and, fifthly, a post-legislative scrutiny committee to examine the Inquiries Act 2005. This is in addition to the important pre-legislative and other scrutiny committee activities.

As Chairman of Committees, I am all too well aware of the fact that it is impossible to please all your Lordships all the time. However, I know that the Liaison Committee has put in hard work in recent months to produce a report which, I hope, may please some of your Lordships for some of the time. On that basis, I beg to move.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

As the Liaison Committee is a committee of your Lordships’ House, could the noble Lord give a little more of the reasoning behind its failure to approve an ad hoc committee requested by my noble friend Lady Cox, who cannot be here today? The request was for an ad hoc committee into religiously sanctioned gender discrimination against women. I ask this question as one of the 70 Peers who supported that request. It is therefore surprising that the report that we are considering says that only two Peers supported the request, whereas in the letter from my noble friend Lady Cox to the committee of 22 November, she named three eminent Peers who supported her committee, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, and the noble Lords, Lord Carlile and Lord Dholakia, and said that 67 other Peers supported it. As far as I can see, of the committees that have been selected, not one was supported by a single other Peer. Therefore, I wonder whether the Liaison Committee has got this right.

Finally, I am sure that your Lordships would be disappointed if I did not bring the European Union into this somehow. Therefore, I once again must ask whether your Lordships really need seven European Union committees, whose suggestions and considerations are largely ignored in Brussels, whereas the House of Commons makes do with one European Scrutiny Committee. I have to ask the Liaison Committee to think again on this one—or, if not, to consider a request for this very widely supported and important committee at the earliest opportunity.

[Lord Jopling]

My Lords, not for the first time, I draw the attention of the House to the fact that, inexplicably, the House of Lords does not have a committee that deals with foreign affairs. There is a committee down the Corridor on foreign affairs, of which I had the honour of being a member for 10 years before I came here. We have Sub-Committee C, which met earlier this morning and which deals with European Union aspects of foreign affairs, defence and trade. However, when one looks at the whole world—which none of our Select Committees has a mandate to cover—the rise of China and the growing importance of India and South America, for instance, are issues that Sub-Committee C is not able to cover.

If I may say so, there is infinitely greater expertise in foreign affairs in this House than there is down the Corridor. I find it absolutely astonishing that whenever this issue is raised, we are told that we should not duplicate the work of the House of Commons. That is absolute nonsense. I urge the Chairman of Committees to consider this matter. I have talked to him about it privately. I hope that something will be done about it because it constitutes a major gap in the work of this House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, the noble Lord is very generous. The point I made was that we have seven European Union sub-committees whereas the House of Commons makes do with one. I also made the point that the conclusions of our seven European Unions sub-committees carry very little weight in Brussels. Furthermore, the scrutiny reserve has been overridden over 400 times in the last two years. Of course I agree that the other committees of your Lordships’ House are hugely valuable. They are taken very seriously nationally and we should have more of them. However, I believe that we should have fewer European Union sub-committees. I do not see why we cannot make do with one, as the House of Commons does.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I think I was too generous to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson. I have been in Brussels twice recently. Everyone I came across there—the officials and commissioners—without hesitation or exception said that they recognise and respect the work of the House of Lords European Union Select Committee and its sub-committees. That came out loud and clear and I pass it on. The trouble is that we are limited. We wanted to travel more but cannot because of the limitations on cost.

Perhaps I may now deal with the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy. I was really astonished by the response from the Liaison Committees here and in the other place. There is a National Security Council, which the Government have set up to take an across-the-board look at all aspects not just of defence and foreign affairs, but of energy security, cybersecurity and a whole range of things. The National Security Council is a powerful body in the country, and the Joint Committee is the parliamentary scrutiny and control over it. The committee just wanted to set up a sub-committee, but because of a lack of resources it is not allowed to do so. The committee consists of people with great expertise—chairmen of Select Committees in the House of Commons, people who used to be heads of, or used to work for, intelligence agencies in this country, and people who worked on the Intelligence and Security Committee. The Joint Committee is one of the most influential committees and is being constrained in its work.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chairman of Committees]

That might very well be the case, and I suggest that the starting-off point is to look at composition, size and mandate rather than giving the committee powers to appoint a sub-committee. The issue is much more fundamental than giving it the power to appoint a sub-committee. The remaining important and recurring point is that of a foreign affairs Select Committee. I acknowledge fully everything that has been said, and I am sure there will be proper and full discussion at the earliest opportunity.

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords, I want to raise a final point with which the noble Lord may agree, because we have discussed it. When reports, particularly from domestic committees, are put on to the Minute, would it not be helpful if there was some description of what they are about? We have had a full debate today, but all that is recorded on the Order Paper is that it concerns the first report of the Liaison Committee. Perhaps we could have some description of what is involved, and a period of notice for any debate. I would suggest possibly a week. Some of these committee reports are put on overnight, I would not dare to suggest, in the hope that they may just be nodded through. A brief description and a period of notice for these reports, most of which are extremely valuable, would help the House to debate them.

[The Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, the noble Lord has tabled two Questions for Written Answer for me on this very issue. In the spirit of openness, transparency, accountability, motherhood and apple pie, I hope that we can end this debate with a degree of agreement. However, the noble Lord has made a good point. It is right that rather than having a sort of sexy title such as, “That the First Report of the Liaison Committee be agreed to”, we should put on to the Order Paper a brief description of the main issues dealt with in the report. I hope that that is the essence of the reply I will make to the noble Lord when his Questions are answered, and I am sure that he will be at least partly satisfied today.