Artificial Intelligence: Regulation

Lord Foster of Bath Excerpts

Monday 10th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

We absolutely agree that creators need to be appropriately recognised and rewarded. That is why the system being developed will give greater transparency on what is being used for what purposes and will allow access while also protecting the rights of creators. It is important to have a technological solution to allow this and to prevent access where creators did not want it to occur.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, ideally, as your Lordships agreed recently, proposals for an opt-out from a mechanism for text and data mining exceptions should be dropped, but if the Government continue, the Minister has made it clear that it will be adopted only if a workable solution can be found and that the views of the creative industries will be taken into account. Can he go further and agree to rule out any mechanism unless it has the full support of rights holders, and if not, why not?

[Lord Vallance of Balham (Lab)]

The noble Lord may find that not all rights holders have the same views, so I do not think it is possible to give the assurance he asked for, but I am very clear that we need a workable solution, and that means for creators as well as for access.

Creative Industries: Rights Reservation Model

Lord Foster of Bath Excerpts

Thursday 30th January 2025 Grand Committee

Asked by

[Lord Foster of Bath]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact on creators and the creative industries of the rights reservation model proposed in their consultation paper “Copyright and Artificial Intelligence” published on 17 December 2024.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, I begin by thanking the Minister for meeting me earlier in the week. I accept that he wants genuine consultation, although, as I will come to in a moment, the Government appear, in some aspects of the consultation, to have predetermined the direction of travel.

I accept that it seems somewhat odd to be returning to this issue so soon after Tuesday’s debate and the passing of the amendments of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, who deserves great praise for the work she has been doing. In my defence, I point out that I entered the ballot before the date had been set for Report stage of the Bill. Anyway, I am absolutely confident that we will need to keep returning to this issue many times, given the pace of development in AI. It is worth reflecting that on Tuesday evening, we were only just learning of the allegations by large AI firms that DeepSeek had been freeloading off their models to train its own model—an infringement, they claim, of their IP. How they have the gall to say that is beyond me, frankly, given that they have been responsible for the theft on a grand scale of the IP of UK creators.

I am not trying to join the debate retrospectively, but I must make my own position clear: the theft I have described must stop. I supported the noble Baroness’s amendments. The enormous success of our creative industries, much lauded on Tuesday, is in no small measure due to our gold standard IP regime, which has been the bedrock of growth, investment and innovation. We weaken it at our peril.

I want to make three things clear. First, this is not an IP v AI debate. The creative industries have been early adopters of AI and see the real benefits of its development. Indeed, they have been working with AI developers as fellow travellers. But if UK creators, many already poorly paid, are to earn even less because their IP is not remunerated, they will stop creating and so stop the flow of the high-class data needed for AI development. As Sir Paul McCartney said over the weekend,

“make sure you protect the creative thinkers, the creative artists, or you’re not going to have them”.

Secondly, I am unconvinced by arguments of legal uncertainty. Rather than sowing seeds of doubt, I would prefer to see the Government supporting the creative industries in upholding the law against unprecedented theft of their IP. As the noble Baroness, Lady Cavendish, said on Tuesday:

“This is not about balance”


between AI and IP,

“it is about implementing and upholding the rule of law ”.—[Official Report, 28/1/25; col. 167.]

But I also accept the need, as has frequently happened in the light of technological development, to update legislation, not least in terms of transparency and enforcement.

Thirdly, any updating should be based on detailed assessment of the implications. The question for this debate is:

“To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact on creators and the creative industries of the rights reservation model proposed in their”


AI consultation paper. Sadly, Tuesday’s debate made it clear that the answer is, little or none.

The creative industries’ own assessment argues that the Government’s proposed option of a text and data-mining exception will weaken our gold-standard IP regime. They argue that it could mean that AI companies, most of which are large US tech firms, can effectively take British creators’ work to train their models, profit from it and, in many cases, not repay the creator. Bizarrely, having circumvented the IP protection of others, the AI companies can get IP protection for their own creations.

But instead of rehashing the debate, I want to offer the Minister an opportunity to give reassurances to this Committee and the creative community that the Government are listening to the concerns, and to offer further comments that Members in another place will read before the Bill is debated there—where, incidentally, I hope we might see a shift in the Official Opposition’s position.

The Minister and his colleagues in the other place have been keen to reassure us that any new TDM exception with opt-out or rights reservation would be introduced only once a workable opt-out was found. He and his ministerial colleagues must therefore have some confidence that these systems are at least emerging, so what examples can he provide? To get to a stage of actively promoting a particular option for reform, one must assume that the Government have received assurances that, if that option is in place, AI developers will proactively enter licence agreements for content. Can the Minister say whether such assurances have been received?

Ministers have also accepted that different types of work will need different systems of opt-out. Is the thinking that there will be a phased approach to the introduction, as each different system is agreed? How could that possibly work? Will the Minister offer reassurance that this will not lead to different works having different levels of copyright protection?

The Government have said that any system must be workable. How will that be assessed? On Tuesday, the Minister in the other place said before the DCMS Committee that it would not be a decision just for Ministers; rather, it would be one for them and industry. Can the Minister shed some light on how such a decision on workability might be agreed, and, in particular, give a categorical assurance that rights holders will have a formal role in approval?

The Minister in the other place also talked about the need for ease and accessibility in any new system. The creative industries have argued that the Government’s preferred option would create huge bureaucratic burdens for artists, particularly independent artists and small music labels, who would end up wasting hundreds of hours on paperwork and translating legal jargon rather than, for example, making music or writing books. Can the Minister explain what “easy” and “accessible” look like?

On other areas of the consultation there is more widespread agreement about the need for updating legislation. For example, some AI developers have publicly claimed that they can use temporary copying exemptions as a legal basis for using data for model training without paying. Will the Minister confirm that this is not intended and will be clarified in law? There are strong arguments in favour of changes around metadata, with legislation prohibiting the stripping of rights reservation protocols to help better protect so-called floating content. Again, will such prohibitions be included in any changes to the law?

I know that the Minister agrees on the need for far greater transparency, and the consultation contains proposals to implement some form of transparency mechanism for AI developers to follow, but does he agree that, to be effective, it will need to be transparency that provides a granular level of detail of the works that have been ingested? Without it, there will be no way for those developers to prove compliance with any opt-out. Does he also agree that developers should be required to provide details of the crawlers they have used, coupled with an assurance that the crawlers have been designed to interpret and respect machine-readable rights reservation notices?

On enforcement, transparency will only help to provide evidence of compliance—or non-compliance—with the law. It will not offer a route for creators to receive any form of compensation for the misuse of their works. If those rights holders have to go to court to receive any compensation, how will that move us on from where we are today? Again, the Minister in the other place told the DCMS Committee that he did not think that accessing justice through the courts should be the preserve of deep-pocketed rights holders. I agree. Can the Minister suggest how the Government foresee rights holders being able to access justice, if not through the courts?

Finally, little has been said about how any new law will co-exist with the laws we have now. Will the Minister confirm that any existing infringement would have to be dealt with under existing law? There are understandable concerns among our talented UK creators. I hope that when he responds the Minister will acknowledge those concerns and, in some areas at least, provide some assurances, not least a willingness to reconsider the potentially hugely damaging proposal for a new text and data-mining exception. Without it, we risk sacrificing a known success story—the UK’s £124 billion creative industries—for a leap in the dark.

AI: Intellectual Property Rights

Lord Foster of Bath Excerpts

Thursday 9th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

The issue raised by the noble Baroness is of deep concern to everybody. As I say, there are some very serious problems, not least regarding the jurisdiction where any alleged infringement may or may not have taken place. Of course, any jurisdiction that implements rules one way or the other will find that the AI work she sets out so compellingly is simply offshored elsewhere. The Government engage very closely with creative groups, including fair remuneration groups for musicians and many others, and will continue to do so, looking for a solution to this difficult problem.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Viscount told the Lords Communications and Digital Select Committee that he did not

“believe that infringing the rights of copyright holders is a necessary precondition for developing successful AI”.

Does he still hold to that view, and does he accept that it should be the clearly stated view of the Government?

Digital Exclusion (Communications and Digital Committee Report)

Lord Foster of Bath Excerpts

Thursday 8th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness. Until very recently, I served on the committee. I pay tribute to her and all the other members, from whom I learned a great deal. I also join in her praise for the excellent staff who supported the committee. Today, I want to underscore the urgent need for more government action in this area.

The committee produced some excellent reports, including the one that we are debating today. However, highlighting the importance of today’s topic, I point out that the report that preceded it on the creative industry and the one that followed on AI also stressed the importance of addressing digital exclusion. In the AI report, for example, we reference a large language model that was supporting computer vision programmes for people with visual impairment, but the ability to benefit from these would be far less for those with low or no digital skills. Indeed, the digitally excluded miss out on so many things, such as online banking, which 40% of over-65 year-olds do not use. Yet as more bank branches close, unless people can arrange long-distance round trips to the nearest bank, online banking becomes the only viable solution. I avoid the problem of a 50-mile round trip to my nearest bank as I am online, but that is not an option for those without digital skills.

Nor can such people connect with family and friends through video calls, access health information or apply for jobs online. Digital exclusion increases social isolation, hindering community participation and civic engagement. As technology permeates every aspect of our lives, the inability to access and use digital resources creates a significant divide in our society. It exacerbates existing inequalities, disproportionately affecting older adults, people with disabilities and those on low incomes but, as the noble Baroness said, it is not just an old-people problem. It affects people from all walks of life and of all ages—far too many people. Even when people have affordable access to the internet—still not enough do—2.4 million cannot do a single basic digital task, while 5 million employed adults cannot do all the basic digital work tasks. More starkly, three years ago the Good Things Foundation talked of over 10 million people lacking the digital foundation needed to function in today’s digital world.

As well as exacerbating inequalities, the lack of digital skills holds back the ambitions we all have to make our country a tech superpower, level up the country, boost economic growth and make public services more effective. A digital skills shortage means those ambitions will not be realised. Addressing digital exclusion is both a social and an economic imperative. We cannot become a tech superpower when basic digital skills are projected to become the UK’s largest skills gap by 2030. Failing to bridge this gap will hinder productivity and economic growth, yet tackling the problem would have significant economic value. The CEBR estimates that it would cost £1.4 billion to upskill excluded groups by 2032, but the return, in the same timeframe, would be around £12.2 billion gross value added—a great return on investment.

Despite a few random measures, such as £8 million for digital skills boot camps during the pandemic, there are social and economic imperatives to do far more. The committee came to the clear view that:

“The Government has taken its eye off the ball”.


The noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, suggested in a letter to the Minister that the Government were showing a distinct lack of leadership. This is especially concerning given, as a Lloyds Bank report recently showed, that the proportion of people offline has for the first time increased.

Details of the committee’s recommendations have already been outlined by the noble Baroness, but it worth summarising the implications of them, because they require a new strategy, fronted by a digital exclusion unit, with the aim of boosting digital skills so that everyone can use the internet for life and work; developing place-based digital inclusion hubs, starting with libraries, so that everyone has somewhere local to go for internet help; and ensuring the availability of affordable internet, so that everyone has the access they need.

Sadly, while acknowledging that more needs to be done, the Government have rejected most of the recommendations, most significantly the call for a new strategy. Although it is not a silver bullet, a new strategy would signal that the Government are prepared to dedicate time and resources to fixing the problem. Their previous strategy is 10 years old and is now in the National Archives—its main delivery partners have not existed for years. Instead of a new unit, the Government have established a cross-Whitehall ministerial group—they have opted for second best. I hope the Minister can, at least, tell us the details of that cross-Whitehall ministerial group’s work to date, its achievements and its plans for future action, and explain how it will be accountable to Parliament.

Digital inclusion is not a luxury. It brings huge social and economic benefits. No one should be left behind in the digital revolution. However, the Government’s response to the committee’s report does not give any confidence, frankly, that they have gripped these issues.

--- Later in debate ---

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

Yes, but I am going to have to write because that would be a multi-bullet point communication.

There is also the timely issue of contract price rises. We appreciate that households across the country are struggling with their bills because of the rise in the cost of living, and that price rises in any services will be unwelcome. That is why it is essential that important clauses within telecoms contracts, such as in-contract price rises, are clear and transparent. Consumers need to be aware of what they are agreeing to when taking up a broadband or mobile contract.

In December, Ofcom completed its review of inflation-linked in-contract price rises and launched a consultation that would end CPI and RPI increases, replacing them with a clear pounds and pence figure for what consumers will pay. For the avoidance of doubt, social tariffs do not incur in-contract prices rises.

I draw noble Lords’ attention to the commitments made by industry bosses in June 2021 to support their customers. The sector agreed to allow consumers facing financial difficulties to enter into affordable payment plans or move to cheaper plans without penalty. We have been clear that any customer who believes they are facing digital exclusion can contact their provider to discuss the support that might be available.

On VAT, as noted by the noble Lord, Lord Young, it is important to remember that decisions to deviate from the standard VAT rate of 20% have to be considered carefully and based on clear evidence, as lowering tax in one place can mean raising tax in another. Taxation policy is kept under review, and we would be happy to receive evidence of the benefits of reducing VAT on social tariffs.

In addition to the provision of social tariffs, we have increased access to gigabit internet. Approximately 80% of UK premises can now access gigabit-capable broadband—a huge leap forward from 2019, when coverage was just 6%. We are on track to meet our target of 85% coverage by 2025. We will continue to expand our mobile network too. By 2025, we will have 95% coverage through the shared rural network, and we are aiming for the majority of the population to have access to 5G signal by 2027, via the 5G Testbeds and Trials Programme.

Government cannot, and should not, be expected to tackle the issue of digital inclusion alone. We call on private sector organisations to prioritise digital inclusion in their business, which they could do by joining device donation schemes, for example. We encourage telecoms providers to continue to provide social tariffs and advertise them to eligible households. We encourage companies to adhere to the public sector bodies accessibility regulations and other government accessibility guidance, which are published and freely available online, for their websites and other publicly available information.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, and my noble friend Lady Stowell for their thoughtful contributions and for raising the important issue of high-quality localised hubs, including libraries and banking hubs. Banking hubs are a voluntary initiative provided by the UK’s largest high street banks. I agree that it is imperative that banks and building societies recognise the needs of all their customers, including those who need to use in-person services. Over 100 banking hubs have been announced so far, and the Government hope to see these hubs open as soon as possible.

Around 2,900 public libraries in England provide a trusted network of accessible locations, with staff, volunteers, free wifi funded by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, public PCs, and assisted digital access to a wide range of digital services. My noble friend Lady Sanderson’s An Independent Review of English Public Libraries, published in January, called for the establishment of formal links between digital-by-default public services, particularly health services and libraries, to ensure the provision of one-to-one support. In his response to my noble friend Lady Sanderson, my noble friend Lord Parkinson committed to exploring her recommendations further, as part of the development of the Government’s libraries strategy, due to be published in 2024. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, asked for a date for that, but I will have to come back to her with the timelines, as I do not have that detail.

On access to support for those seeking work, Jobcentre Plus work coaches can provide support to eligible claimants who are not online with financial support to buy six-month broadband connections. This is administered by the Department for Work and Pensions through the flexible support fund. This cross-government approach is working to reach millions of people across the UK and to provide necessary access for the digital age.

We know that, in addition to access, the right skills are needed, as many noble Lords rightly pointed out, to be able to use and take advantage of digital content and services. Digital skills are central to the jobs of today and the workforce of tomorrow. Ensuring that the workforce has the digital skills for the future is important to meet the UK’s ambition to be a global science and tech superpower.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for raising the skills gap. Tackling the digital skills gap and the shortage of digital workers across the economy cannot be done by government alone, which is why the Government launched the Digital Skills Council in June 2022, bringing together government and industry to strengthen the digital workforce. The council is focused on addressing industry’s current and future demand for digital skills, including through digital apprenticeships and by increasing the amount of business-led upskilling.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for raising also the role of the employer to support training staff. More than 80% of those who will be in the 2030 workforce are already in the workforce today. Given the need to continually refresh digital skills, upskilling existing workers with workplace training be essential. We have put employers at the heart of our apprenticeship system, empowering them to design the standards they need. Employers in the digital sector have developed 30 apprenticeship standards in digital. These high-quality apprenticeships are in a wide range of occupations and emerging technologies, including data scientist, software developer, cybersecurity and artificial intelligence specialist.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, also raised investment and support for young people. For children and young people, we are supporting and inspiring the next generation of technologists. It is crucial that we challenge perceptions of what being in a tech career is all about if we are to attract diverse and high-quality talent into our digital workforce. To achieve this, we are working closely with the Department for Education, industry and academia through the Digital and Computing Skills Education Taskforce, launched last summer to increase the numbers of students choosing digital and tech educational pathways into tech careers.

We are also working in partnership with industry and other government departments to inspire and engage students before they make key subject choices at GCSE and A-level—for example, through the CyberFirst programme, which encompasses technology-focused initiatives, from free online extracurricular learning to national competitions and bursaries. This includes DSIT’s Cyber Explorers programme, launched in February 2022, which seeks to support the teaching of computing in schools and to inspire young people aged 11 to 14 to take up computer science for GCSE and the opportunities that a career in cybersecurity can offer. Over 60,000 students are registered across nearly 2,500 schools.

I thank my noble friend Lord Holmes for his question on the national curriculum. In addition to the programmes that I have just outlined, the DfE introduced computing as a statutory national curriculum subject in 2014 from key stages 1 to 4. In addition to this, we are investing a total over the Parliament of £3.8 billion in skills in England by 2024-25 and, in October, we quadrupled the scale of skills bootcamps.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for raising the essential digital skills framework. The Department for Education has used that framework as the basis for the national standards for essential digital skills of 2019, which set out the skills that the qualifications funded and that the adult digital statutory entitlement must cover.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, for her important question on the links to community groups. These really are an important part of the digital inclusion landscape. The Department for Education funds community learning and other non-regulated learning, such as building confidence in essential digital skills for learners who are not ready to take a qualification.

I reassure noble Lords that I am almost at the point of closing. The secondary barriers of trust and motivation must be tackled to have a true, positive impact on digital inclusion, but these are harder to measure. We recognise that some people are hesitant to access online services for fear that they may become victims of fraud, or that it is an unsafe environment. We have introduced the Product Security and Telecommunications Infrastructure Act, which will come into force in April this year.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, I know that time is very short, but I asked about the accountability of the cross-Whitehall group being set up. We know that it is going to meet only once every six months. One assumes that it will receive at each meeting a report of progress that has been made in a wide range of areas in the preceding six months. Could the Minister at least agree that copies of the report that will be received by the group will be made public to Members of Parliament?

[Viscount Camrose (Con)]

I can take that up with the chair of the group, my colleague Minister Bhatti, to understand his intentions for assuring accountability.

I once again sincerely thank my noble friend Lady Stowell for securing today’s debate, and all noble Lords who have spoken so well and clearly on this absolutely critical subject. With that, I conclude my remarks.

King’s Speech

Lord Foster of Bath Excerpts

Tuesday 14th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD)]

My Lords, I regret that the time constraints make it impossible to comment on the many valuable contributions we have already heard, not least that from the noble Viscount, who is always worth listening to. But I do want to pay tribute to our three maiden speakers.

In thanking the noble Lord, Lord Butler, for his comments earlier, I declare my interest as chairman of Peers for Gambling Reform. On behalf of its 150 members, I recently wrote to the Prime Minister, acknowledging that the Government’s gambling White Paper included many of the measures we have been campaigning for, including a statutory levy, affordability checks and bringing online stakes and prizes more in line with land-based gambling. We strongly welcomed the White Paper, while arguing for additional measures—not least those referenced by the noble Lord, Lord Butler—and pressing for speedy implementation.

Speedy implementation was promised by the Government, and my letter argued that the King’s Speech offered an opportunity to reaffirm that promise, providing the assurances that so many want that there will be no further delay in gambling reform. So I was disappointed that the Speech made no reference to gambling reform. Therefore, I hope that, when the Minister responds, he will give a clear assurance that gambling reforms will progress as rapidly as possible.

However, one issue is woefully addressed in the White Paper: gambling advertising, marketing and sponsorship. We and our children are bombarded with, and incentivised to gamble by, ads on TV, on the radio, online, on social media and in direct emails. No wonder the noble Lord, Lord True, speaking from the Dispatch Box last year, said that as a sports fan he was

“sick and tired of gambling advertising being thrust down viewers’ throats”.—[Official Report, 27/1/22; col. 446.]

The promotion of gambling products has grown exponentially, with an annual spend now in excess of £1.5 billion, and a growing amount of it online. One in six adults follow gambling companies on social media, as do a surprising number of children. Also growing has been the level of public concern about the way gambling companies are using ever more sophisticated means to attract new customers and persuade existing ones to spend more. They use a range of techniques to keep customers hooked, from disguising losses as wins and celebrating near-misses to offering so-called free bets, free money and free spins. No wonder 50 academics recently called for “badly needed” restrictions, claiming:

“In our opinion it has become quite clear that the gambling products being offered and the ways in which they are promoted are harmful to individual and family health and damaging to national life”.


Following a review of evidence, the Advertising Standards Authority said:

“Several studies … found associations between advertising exposure and the behaviour of problem and at-risk gamblers,”


with some

“robust enough to support the existence of an association between exposure and gambling behaviour”.

The charity GambleAware said there was a “missed opportunity” in the White Paper for greater regulation of gambling advertising and marketing. It wrote:

“Almost half (45%) of 11–17-year-olds are exposed to gambling marketing on social media each week. Our research shows that increased exposure to gambling can influence attitudes towards gambling and the likelihood of gambling participation in the future, which in turn comes with an increased risk of harm”.


Under the heading

“Gambling Advertising has no public benefit and contributes to harm”,


the Coalition Against Gambling Ads, citing numerous pieces of research, concluded:

“There is good evidence that, for a considerable number of people, gambling advertising substantially contributes to disordered gambling”.


The White Paper itself points to research showing that gambling advertising and marketing leads people to start gambling, existing gamblers to gamble more and those who have stopped to start again.

Given this link between gambling advertising and harm, some organisations are taking matters into their own hands. The Guardian has banned all gambling ads. Even the Premiership has agreed to ban shirt-front gambling logos, and some football clubs have gone much further, ending gambling sponsorship deals and banning ads. Reading City Football Club, for example, said it is

“pleased to commit to helping eliminate harmful gambling ads, which are a scourge on our beautiful game”.

Even the gambling industry itself has made concessions, albeit small, with the whistle-to-whistle ban on ads during football matches. These are all welcome and, backed by research evidence, show an acceptance of the damaging impact of this barrage of gambling marketing and so the need for greater action. Several other countries are taking action to ban or restrict gambling advertising. The vast majority of the British public want us to do the same.

We were promised a public health approach to gambling. I believe such an approach should lead to significant curbs on advertising, a ban on direct marketing, an end to all inducements to gamble and the phasing out of sports sponsorship, yet the White Paper proposals do little of this. As the charity Gambling With Lives says:

“Gambling advertising is designed to encourage people to gamble. The more people gamble, the more likely they are to be at risk of harm. It’s not rocket science”.


It really is not rocket science.

We have a large number of people who suffer gambling harm, including a surprising number of children, an even greater number of people impacted by it and, tragically, far too many gambling-related suicides. Current gambling advertising is contributing to this and more robust action is needed. I encourage the Minister to ensure speedy implementation of existing White Paper proposals, but will he also acknowledge the need to go back to the drawing board in respect of gambling advertising and come up with proposals that acknowledge the huge weight of UK and international research evidence and the huge public support for far tougher measures?