Undercover Policing

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Monday 24th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

There is no tolerance of racial discrimination in this country. It is one of the features that have changed since those times. The Home Secretary became aware of these allegations only on Thursday last week. No Home Secretary that I know of has been aware of these allegations. We know that the noble Lord, Lord Condon, who is not in his place today but who was commissioner at the time, has widely condemned these allegations and had no knowledge of them, as he says in a statement which he issued earlier today.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I most warmly congratulate the Minister on the sincerity and sensitivity with which he has approached these grave allegations. The question has been raised as to exactly how boundaries should be drawn. I respectfully suggest that this House, sitting in its appellate capacity in the Loosely case 13 years ago, laid down very specific and intricate rules. If those can be made a living law—exactly how that is to be done I am not sure—the problem, to a large extent, would be answered.

On the Lawrence question, it is perfectly clear to the House that a small, select, covert and confidential cell was set up to do a very specific job—to besmirch the Lawrence case. That decision could not have been a haphazard one. It must have been arrived at at a fairly senior level of management. The British public will want to know who that person was. Anything short of that would leave a huge gap in credibility.

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Saying that gives me no pleasure, as someone who was Police Minister in the other place 45 years ago and thinks that we still have a most splendid police force, with few exceptions.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

What the noble Lord says is quite clearly the nub of the issue. That is what the investigation of these allegations is designed to discover. It is not going to be easy. This was quite some time ago and many of those involved have passed on. It will not be easy to get to the truth. The paper trail and the documents may not exist—we do not know. However, I believe that the public demand this sort of scrutiny and transparency and it is right that they do so. We need to pursue the allegations with vigour because we need to show that this cannot be tolerated in retrospect and it certainly cannot be tolerated today.

Sexual Offences: Investigation and Prosecution

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Tuesday 21st May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble and learned Lord makes a very powerful case for working together across government. I think that noble Lords will know that bodies are already in place and that we already have a very considerable focus on child protection in this country. However, there has been a failure, and a failure to recognise the reality that many of these young people have experienced. That has been exposed in recent court cases. The Government are determined that the system should work. The system needs to work to protect these very vulnerable children.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that since it would appear that in only a minority of these cases—a small minority—is there a direct victim complaint, no real progress can be made until the law enforcement agencies are prepared to adopt more robust tactics, including infiltration and surveillance? Otherwise, we will only be dusting over this disgraceful practice.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think that all agencies are now very much on the alert. However, we are in effect looking back and trying to recover a situation that should never have got to this point. The intention of government should be to ensure that this does not happen again. Anyone whose job involves the protection of children should be alert to this fact. That includes local authorities, the police and those who are responsible for care homes, health agencies, schools, the probation service and housing. All these elements must come together. We have a statutory body—the local safeguarding children boards—in every local authority in this country. What are they doing if not seeking to protect the young children who are their responsibility? The Government are very alert to this and I hope that I am reassuring the House that we are determined that the system should protect the very people it was designed for.

Police: Convicted Officers

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I understand the noble Lord’s concern, particularly as it is based on those figures, but in fact those figures are not accurate. I have been able to obtain some accurate figures. In 2005, a total of 46 officers were serving in the MPS who had a criminal conviction. That went down to 25 in 2010, and in 2012 there was a further decline to a total of 15 officers serving with the MPS with a criminal conviction. Of these 15 officers, the majority of convictions, 10 of them, were for traffic offences including excess alcohol.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I kindly put it to the Minister that 45 years ago, as I know for a fact, the police regulations covered all manner of conduct, positive and negative, in relation to police officers. Is there now an equivalent covenant which relates to all police officers in England and Wales, and, if so, does it refer to criminal offences?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The Police (Conduct) Regulations 2012 set out the standards that all police officers are expected to maintain. The standard on discreditable conduct, for example, states that police officers behave in a manner that does not discredit the police or undermine public confidence in them, whether on or off duty, and that police officers report any action taken against them for a criminal offence, any conditions imposed on them by a court, or the receipt of any penalty notice.

Alcohol: Minimum Pricing

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Winston]

My Lords—

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords—

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, in the general turn of groups, it is the turn of the Labour Benches. I suggest that since the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, has been patient, it might be his turn next.

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[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That is why this proposal was originally put forward. That is the premise under which we operate, but it is not the total answer. I think the noble Lord would admit that there are other elements besides price, such as availability. As the noble Lord will know, we face a much more liberal licensing regime as a result of the previous Government’s determination to extend licensing hours, so availability is another factor. But he is right to point to behaviour, because there are huge differences between those of us who live in Nordic countries, where alcohol consumption per capita is very high, and those who live in Mediterranean countries and the like, where there seems to be better self-ordered restraint on the consumption of alcohol.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, while accepting that it is utterly laudable that any Government should pay very great attention to the possibility of curbing alcohol abuse by pricing, I urge upon the Minister an alternative consideration as well. As the Minister will remember, the current Licensing Act has a provision—I think in Section 157, but I could be wrong—to punish publicans for serving alcohol to persons who have already had too much to drink. Will the Government concentrate very much on this aspect as well? If proper sanctions are fully and practically applied, this could be a very powerful weapon against alcoholism.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Indeed, the discipline that needs to be shown by those who retail alcohol, whether in shops, supermarkets or bars, is a very important part of the solution to this problem. We know that local authorities are taking the issue of underage drinking much more seriously than has been the case. The responsibility must lie with the person selling the alcohol to make sure that it is not made available to people who clearly have had enough.

Citizenship Test

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, does the handbook contain any reference to the invasion of these islands by the Anglo-Saxons?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am sure that it does.

Police Integrity

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Tuesday 12th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

It is of course very important to keep oneself well informed, even if it is just to inform one of where people are going wrong. This issue is a very serious one. I do not think there is any dispute about the fact that crime figures are falling. There are matters of definition, which I think it is going to be in everyone’s interests to get tidied up, but the allegation that these figures are being manipulated is a very serious one. Unfortunately, I cannot attend the meeting which the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, who is not in his place at the moment, has called for this evening. I would like to have gone to it but I am on duty in the Chamber. However, I have asked an official to attend because it is very important that the Home Office follows these arguments and listens to what is being said.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, as one who was privileged, 45 years ago, to be Police Minister in the other place, I suggest that the situation which now obtains in relation to the police is not all that dissimilar to that which existed in the early 1960s. The Government of the day, a Conservative Government, set up the royal commission under Sir Henry Willink because they were convinced that only an inquiry that was wholly independent of government could have the chance of replacing the police in that position of trust and distinction which they had traditionally occupied in the community. I respectfully ask the Minister to consider deeply whether that precedent should not now be followed in the circumstances prevailing.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I cannot accept the noble Lord’s suggestion that there is equivalence between the two situations, but I am certain that the restoration of good practice within communities is a very local matter. That is why the focus of the Statement is on the engagement of individual forces and the maintenance of professional standards throughout the police force from top to bottom. I hope the noble Lord will understand that I am not prepared to go quite as far as he would suggest.

Police and Crime Commissioners

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Thursday 13th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I should make it clear that the facility for the role of the deputy police and crime commissioner is written into the arrangements, but it is not mandatory. It is indeed not politically restricted and it is designed to assist the PCC in his role. The actual administration of the PCC’s office will be in the control of a finance officer and a head of paid staff. The head of paid staff serves as the monitoring officer. I know the circumstances to which the noble Lord has alluded, but as I have said before, the decisions made by PCCs will be judged by the electorate at the next elections.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that many of the independents who were elected had held high rank as serving police officers? Will he confirm that they will abjure any temptation to outguess a chief constable insofar as operational matters are concerned?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Yes, I think that I have made it absolutely clear. There is a protocol that sets down all these matters and I have no doubt that chief constables themselves will make sure that they keep their part of the bargain, as indeed will PCCs.

Police and Crime Commissioners: Elections

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Tuesday 4th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Two questions were being asked at the same time, but I shall take that of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport. I do not accept that for one moment. By-elections were held the same day and, in one case, the retiring Member of Parliament received very much the same turnout as the winning candidate in the seat that he had vacated. That does not affect the legitimacy of the outcome, nor will it affect the authority with which police and crime commissioners will tackle their task, with a mandate on behalf of the people to make sure that we have effective crime policies in this country.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, does the Minister recollect that when taxed with the question of the low turnout both the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary said that it was easily foreseeable that in a situation as novel as this the turnout would be low. Why, then, was no free mail shot considered? I ask him to answer this question with the sweet benefit of hindsight, but is it the case that perhaps the wrong question was asked? Rather than ask whether we could possibly afford it, perhaps we should have asked whether we could possibly afford not to do it.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

As the noble Lord will know, because I know that he has been interested in this subject and I have talked to him in Questions before about informing voters on this issue, more than 2 million people took advantage of access to the website to inform themselves about their candidates, and more than 200,000 people asked for a printed version of the candidates’ election address on the website and took advantage of that opportunity. There is no free post, and I do not think that the £30 million that postage would have cost would have been justified.

Police and Crime Commissioner Elections (Welsh Forms) Order 2012

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Monday 29th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

My Lords, I join with the condemnation of the noble Lord, Lord Touhig—apart from his final remark, which I do not accept at all—and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. This is a shambolic way in which to undertake any kind of election. We have it on good authority that the ballot papers will be going out within the next 48 hours but it is only tonight that we will say, “Yes, let us have the bilingual papers”. How the staffs in the various local authorities will manage to do this over the next day or two is beyond my comprehension. Not only is this part of the election process at fault but the whole issue has been conducted in haste and has not been thoroughly thought through.

As to the postal ballot papers that are being issued, in the previous Parliament I campaigned to ensure that members of the Armed Forces then in Iraq and in Afghanistan now received ballot papers to allow them to take part in any election. There is not a chance that they will be able to do that now. There is something seriously wrong with our democracy when we deny people who are fighting for our freedoms the right to vote for the party of their choice.

To divert a little—I make no apology for this—how will candidates access the electors in their constituencies? Greater Manchester has 2 million people—I do not know whether that is the number of voters—so how are the candidates standing there going to get in touch with those 2 million people? Liverpool has 1 million people and North Wales has about 500,000 people: who will be able to contact these people with details of the candidates and their policies; how will they get through? There is no free post but a polling card was sent out about two weeks ago. That could have been used to provide at least a page from each of the candidates standing in the various constituencies—as they do in London mayoral elections—but nothing came.

No one will be able to say that this is a fair election. They may say, “It will be on the internet” but 8 or 9 million people have no access to the internet. How will those people know who is standing, which party they belong to and what their proposals are for policing in their particular area? It could have been so different.

Only the wealthy or well-funded candidates in North Wales—which is only a small electorate—could possibly afford £50,000 to mail people in their areas. No ordinary person—certainly no independent person—will be able to afford this. So some candidates will have access because they have money; others will be unable to afford access. Would there not be a case for a legal challenge to the results when they are announced? Someone will have to think that through thoroughly.

While I am delighted that at long last we are to have Welsh ballot papers and that a prototype is in our briefing, so much else is wrong. This is a total shambles which does not reflect on the people of the areas it is supposed to represent. As to the point about this being approved at the last hour, we cannot call for the election to be declared invalid now but certainly we need to go through it thoroughly in the future.

I support what has been said. I am glad that there has been at least an acknowledgement of Welsh—which, of course, is one of the great languages of the western world—but we will try to ensure that discounting us without a thought will not happen again.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I endorse with enthusiasm the chagrin that has been announced by each of the three previous noble Lords who have spoken in this matter. I have no doubt that, at best, it is an embarrassment for the Government; at worst, it could well be a disaster. In saying that, I exculpate completely the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, in this matter, and the new Minister, whom I congratulate on her position.

The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, has already shown himself a person of great sensitivity and sincerity in relation to Wales and has shown a considerable chivalry as well. He wears the gown, as it were, of defending counsel in this case. I know something of what that role sometimes involves.

There is no doubt that disaster lies very close to our elbow tonight. If this legislation is not carried by five o’clock on Wednesday, which is less than 48 hours away, it will be impossible for these Welsh forms to be part of the election. There is no dispute about that. If that can be done—and I have no intention of dividing the House; nor, I am sure, has any other noble Lord—it will have been a very close-run thing.

However, there are lessons that we have to consider in this connection. This is a tale of two statutes: one is the Welsh Language Act 1967. The combination of Sections 2 and 3 of that Act mean that anything that is done in the Welsh language has equal validity as if it had been done in the English language. The blade was pushed a little further by legislation passed in 1993 and thereafter, but the basic principle was established in that Act. I am very proud indeed to have been a Member of the other place at the time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Well, I thank the noble Lord for that support. This has been a stimulating and useful debate. It has given me the opportunity to inform the House and to some degree clear the air on some of the issues that have been raised, and I know they have been raised with some considerable passion.

As we know—and with this being a shared objective of all noble Lords who have spoken—the order will ensure that voters in Wales will have the opportunity to mark their vote bilingually. The House’s support of this measure means that it can be done in Welsh and English and both languages will have full parity.

Noble Lords can be assured that throughout this process the Government have consulted with the Electoral Commission and returning officers. As noble Lords will know, these are independent officers acting within local authorities, running the election, in developing the design of the ballot papers and the mechanics of delivering a Welsh and English bilingual ballot paper for the electors in Wales.

I should make it clear to the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, who I think had expected to find a Welsh Minister here today, that no criticism should be made of the Wales Office; the Home Office is the responsible organisation. As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, made quite clear, the Home Office is responsible for conducting this election. The focus of the issue should be directed to the Home Office. It is indeed the Home Office’s intention to ensure that we have a long-term way of dealing with the Welsh language element of elections. As noble Lords will know, currently this requires a separate order from the general secondary legislation that is required to bring about publication of other forms.

The Law Commission is investigating the whole question of elections. Although it will take some time for the Law Commission to report, it is the Government’s intention to respond to that. It may well be that in future it will not be necessary to keep coming back for each election. I remind noble Lords that for the previous general election, the Government had to bring in a special order in April for the May 2010 election for exactly this issue: to produce a bilingual ballot paper. The process is complex, to the extent that we need to ensure that we have the form of the election material right in the English language before we seek to translate it into a Welsh or bilingual format. This has been a more convoluted process than noble Lords might at first think.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Is there any good reason why translation from English into Welsh should not be the exclusive purview of the Welsh Assembly? That would avoid all these complications, would it not?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That will have to be for future legislators to consider. It is certainly not possible under current law. As I have explained, the responsibility lies with the Home Office to deliver these elections in England and Wales. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, showed a great deal of understanding about the complexity of statutes under which Welsh language elements of elections have to be conducted. He mentioned the two statutes and the complexity of the issue. I thank him for his understanding of that matter.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Wigley and Lord Rosser, mentioned the cost of £350,000. That is within the £75 million budget, and it will not cost any additional money nor extend the budget for these elections. It is within the contingencies that noble Lords have mentioned.

We take the Welsh language very seriously. I am an English-speaking Englishman who has to receive any part of the Welsh language culture second-hand. However, I appreciate it enormously. It enhances all our lives that we have a second living language spoken in these islands. It is greatly to our advantage and is one of the reasons why we support, in any way that we can, opportunities for Welsh speakers to express themselves in their Welsh language. Indeed, as I said, they can take the oath in Welsh if they wish on achieving office.

Police and Crime Commissioners: Elections

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Thursday 11th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank my noble friend and predecessor in this post for making that point. The noble Baroness will be aware that future elections will be in May, when we hope that the weather will be so much more pleasant. Meanwhile, the Government and Parliament decided that they wanted these elections as soon as possible, which is why we are having them on 15 November.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, the Question on the Order Paper asks how many people are likely to vote. Does the Minister not agree that perhaps a more pertinent, or even impertinent, question might be how many people should vote, bearing in mind that this ill conceived piece of legislation creates a situation in which a lay commissioner is there to interfere with the hierarchy of a disciplined service that has served this community magnificently well for a century and three quarters?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I respect the noble Lord’s point of view, but I am afraid that he has got it wrong. Police and crime commissioners are not there to interfere with the operational responsibilities of the police force. As for turnout, we do not have compulsory voting in this country; what we do have is the opportunity for people to go and exercise their vote. I am very confident indeed that there will be a good vote on 15 November.