Police and Crime Commissioners: Elections

Lord Taylor of Holbeach Excerpts

Thursday 11th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the likely turnout in the elections for police and crime commissioners.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, the election of police and crime commissioners will be one of the most significant democratic reforms of policing in our lifetime. We want and encourage everyone to have their say and we are confident that come 15 November the public will not only be aware of the elections but will have the information that they need to make their choices.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, to his new role at the Dispatch Box and look forward to many long and interesting discussions with him. However, I found his Answer somewhat disappointing. The Reform Society fears an 18.5% turnout for these elections. That is not surprising, given that the elections will be held in November when it is cold, wet and dark, and that the candidate information has been made available online instead of in the normal leaflets for every household, as in similar elections. May I press the noble Lord on this point and ask him what level of turnout he would accept as evidence that the Government have respect for the police and the candidates and that this is a serious policy and not something dreamt up on the back of an envelope?

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[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Baroness is very kind in her welcome, and I am grateful for that. The whole point of the information campaign is to make sure that the public are in a position to make a proper choice. For this election, the Home Office is setting up a website on which all candidates will be able to post an election address—and, if they wish, there is a call-line as well. All this information and the contacts will be on the poll card. They will in a position to get a hard copy, should they wish to do so.

I am not going to answer the question about turnout. No one would do that. The success of this campaign will be in the effectiveness of the policy, which is to bring democratic accountability to the police force in a way that has not been the case up to now. I am sure that the noble Baroness supports that.

[Baroness Browning]

I welcome my noble friend to his new position at the Home Office. Would he agree with me that, if November was such a bad time to go to the polls, no political party in this country would move by-elections at that time of year, which of course they have all done? You do not hear the Americans whingeing away about how cold and wet it is in November—they go out and vote.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I thank my noble friend and predecessor in this post for making that point. The noble Baroness will be aware that future elections will be in May, when we hope that the weather will be so much more pleasant. Meanwhile, the Government and Parliament decided that they wanted these elections as soon as possible, which is why we are having them on 15 November.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, the Question on the Order Paper asks how many people are likely to vote. Does the Minister not agree that perhaps a more pertinent, or even impertinent, question might be how many people should vote, bearing in mind that this ill conceived piece of legislation creates a situation in which a lay commissioner is there to interfere with the hierarchy of a disciplined service that has served this community magnificently well for a century and three quarters?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I respect the noble Lord’s point of view, but I am afraid that he has got it wrong. Police and crime commissioners are not there to interfere with the operational responsibilities of the police force. As for turnout, we do not have compulsory voting in this country; what we do have is the opportunity for people to go and exercise their vote. I am very confident indeed that there will be a good vote on 15 November.

[Lord Tomlinson]

Would the Minister agree with me that there is a fair amount of inconsistency of thought when members of the same Government justify low turnouts for important elections and yet demand of people who have nothing to do with government, such as the trade unions, that they should get 50% turnouts in their ballots?

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[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think that is a different matter altogether. Perhaps the noble Lord will forgive me if I do not comment directly on his question. We had good debates on this matter in this House, and we will be scrutinising all Home Office legislation in this House. But after all, at the end of the day, we all believe that an expression of the people’s voice is important, and I hope that Members on all sides of the House will support these elections. Indeed, there may even be candidates from this House standing in these elections.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I, too, welcome the Minister to his no doubt uneventful and boring post. Does he agree that the positive attitude taken by those Labour politicians who are standing is the more constructive one? In other words, is it not better to talk the elections up rather than talk them down?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I am grateful to my noble friend for giving that advice to some Members on the Benches opposite who appear to have rather negative views on these elections. The candidates for these elections are first class; there will be a good choice before the electorate. The role that police and crime commissioners will play is important to bring transparency to the police in this country. That is why the Government have made changes to the law to bring about this arrangement.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

The noble Lord may be reluctant to give a figure but does he at least agree that there is a correlation between the turnout and legitimacy, credibility and respect?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That has not been the pattern of elections in the past. Many noble Lords will have participated in elections where turnout has been quite low. I do not believe that that will be the case in these elections. It is interesting that the electorate as a whole are not particularly aware of the role of police authorities and their relationship with police forces. This is a new opportunity to make people aware that there will be direct links between their wishes and the way in which the police force operates in their area. I think that people will take advantage of that.

[Lord Condon]

My Lords, does the noble Lord share my disappointment that very few genuinely independent candidates are standing for the post of police and crime commissioner and that the overwhelming majority of them are locally nominated political nominees?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

It is premature to judge whether many independent candidates are standing. Nominations have not closed. They opened only on Monday and do not close until 19 October. Therefore, we should judge that question nearer the time. Meanwhile, noble Lords—

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

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[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

We should judge the question when nominations have closed. We cannot say at this stage that too few independent candidates are standing. Noble Lords will understand that when they think about this question. Meanwhile, no doubt, the political parties will work to secure the return of their own candidates.