Rural Poverty

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Tuesday 5th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, that is why I mentioned the £9 billion in the affordable homes programme scheme. We did this precisely because we want people working in the countryside to be able to ensure that communities tick and that they have affordable homes. Last week I was at a very interesting rural affordable housing development in Warwickshire—another fine example of the many sensitively built and small-scale schemes doing exactly what we need to do to keep villages vibrant.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, while rural poverty is of course of immense importance, does the Minister not agree that as far as rural areas are concerned there is a comprehensive disadvantage? In almost any heading of amenity they come a long way down in the list. It is a question of not just poverty but a whole range of amenities.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, as a Government we want to ensure that disadvantage is eradicated, but I am very proud of coming from a rural background. Rural areas are wonderful places to live, work and play. They are beacons of excellence in looking after our natural environment. In truth, unemployment, poverty and homelessness are lower in rural areas. I very much want us to ensure that all these indices are reduced wherever we are in the United Kingdom.

Winter Floods

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Thursday 6th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

I share my noble friend’s concerns absolutely.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, I would like to raise a constitutional point relating to Wales in the context of these storms. Some weeks ago, a number of noble Lords, including myself, were told by the noble Baroness, the Minister, that essentially, responsibility for these matters had been devolved to the Welsh Assembly. I appreciate that responsibility for marine structures, coastal defences and so on has no doubt been transferred. On the other hand, under the 20 headings that I included in the schedules to the Government of Wales Act 2006, there is great vagueness. There is nothing at all to say whether responsibility for storm damage or for substantial havoc caused by nature has ever been transferred. I would be most grateful if the Government would publish some sort of reasoned opinion in relation to the matter. With regard to the Bellwin proposals, I remember 30 years ago, soon after I came to this House, how sterling they were. Is Wales eligible to profit from such a fund—and, if so, to what extent?

[Lord De Mauley]

The noble Lord has a habit of bowling fast constitutional balls. Of course, coastal regions right across the United Kingdom, including in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, have been affected by flooding and severe weather conditions. Responsibility for flood management is, as he suspects, devolved to the Welsh Assembly, the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly. It is for those bodies and their agencies to determine how best to allocate resources to support affected areas.

Bovine Tuberculosis

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Tuesday 26th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

I can confirm to my noble friend that we are indeed continuing research into AI.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

The Minister may well recall some weeks ago, in reply to a supplementary question which I raised, that I was told that about 50% of bovine tuberculosis was attributable to badgers and about 50% to other sources. Can the Minister tell the House roughly, in the last financial year or in any other meaningful period, how much money from public sources was spent in relation to non-badger-related bovine tuberculosis?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, perhaps I should clarify the answer I gave to the noble Lord. Research by Professor Christl Donnelly indicates that up to 50% of infections in the high-incidence area are due to badgers. Bovine TB can affect a wide range of species, including pigs, sheep, goats and camelids; it can affect wildlife—for example, badgers and wild deer—and pets, including cats and dogs, and of course humans. The key thing, however, is that in cattle and badgers the infection is self-sustaining. It is thought that most other species generally only act as spillover hosts.

Badgers

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Wednesday 9th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

No, my Lords, I am aware of no such evidence. Indeed, as I said just now, the Chief Veterinary Officer endorses that what has happened so far will lead to a reduction in the disease in cattle, and that any more we can do will further contribute to a reduction.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, I accept that badger-borne bovine TB is the despair of the agricultural industry, but has the ministry ever made any calculation of how much bovine TB is non badger-borne? If it has not, how can it possibly indulge in detailed experiments, including culling, unless this information is to hand?

[Lord De Mauley]

I am grateful for that question because it gives me the opportunity to say that work by Professor Crystl Donnelly has shown that as much as 50% of the incidence of TB in high-risk areas can be attributed to badgers.

Horsemeat and Food Fraud

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Monday 11th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

I thank my noble friend and point out to her that the occasion of which she speaks occurred no less than 14 years before I arrived in your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, following the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Clark, does the Minister agree that phenylbutazone is an active carcinogenic agent? If within the next two weeks the FSA is satisfied that there is evidence of such contaminated horsemeat having come into the United Kingdom or, indeed, any other meat that is contaminated by veterinary processes in the way described by the noble Lord, will the Secretary of State ban forthwith all horsemeat products coming to our shores?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I share the seriousness with which the noble Lord takes the issue of bute. I have spoken about it at some length. He will know that imposing a ban is no small matter. Indeed, the onus is on the exporting member state to ensure that meat produced on its territory meets animal and public health requirements laid down in EU legislation. We have legislation in place to provide for a ban on imports where there are grounds for suspecting a serious threat to public or animal health. I hope that satisfies the noble Lord.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rowlands]

I support this amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, was right to remind us of the situation before S4C was first created. The bitter, divisive nature of the arguments that surrounded Welsh language broadcasting in my days as a Member in the other place were some of the most violent and angry ones that I had ever heard from constituents. They were split right down the middle. It ended up with people taking extreme positions. There were those who did not want to see a single Welsh language programme on either BBC or what was then HTV, and those who wanted to see a lot more and realised that these channels were not going to provide it. The creation of S4C has been an extremely important aspect in developing a consensus around broadcasting in Wales. Even with the best of intentions, we would be very foolish to break that consensus unnecessarily by one means or another. First of all, the consensus was built in establishing S4C, as has been described by my noble and learned friend Lord Morris and by others, and gained enormous cross-party support.

Despite all the problems that S4C has had since, I believe that one of its successes has been to maintain or sustain a degree of consensus around broadcasting and that we have not had the divisiveness that accompanied some of the broadcasting of earlier times. The Government ought to be very careful, in the way that they handle all these issues, that they do not break the consensus and reopen some of the old divisive arguments that were injurious to Welsh broadcasting as a whole. That is the first point that we have to get across to Ministers: that they cannot take a blunderbuss approach to this issue because it is too important that it be maintained. The consensus was created and developed as a result of careful consultation and bringing everybody along together. This has not happened so far in relation to the proposals now being floated.

I hope noble Lords do not mind if I mention, in a personal sense, that I had an opportunity for quite a period to watch closely the affairs of the S4C Authority because my wife was a member for a number of years. I realise what my noble and learned friend Lord Morris has said and what the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, has said about the more recent problems of the S4C Authority. However, I remember, over the whole period of S4C’s establishment, that independent members of the S4C Authority played a crucial role in developing the new provisions and making sure that the channel was trying to reach out to audiences and was not going to be an enclave just for Welsh-speaking communities. My wife and others spent a great deal of time promoting what the authority was about, what the channel was about and what the service was about in communities that were not Welsh-speaking, such as the constituents of Merthyr Tydfil, whom I represented. The consequence of that and, I believe, a factor that was promoted by the independent members of the authority was that people in Merthyr felt that it was just as much their channel as it was in Caernarvon or Ceredigion. That was the success of it. Members of the authority itself played a very important role in achieving that aim and purpose. It had amazing spin-offs, such as the growth of Welsh medium education in communities such as Merthyr. Ysgol Santes Tudful started out with 22 children. My eldest son was a founder member of the school, which now has more than 400 students. S4C’s role in promoting and linking up through its children’s programmes has been a vital part of that development. It is one of the most exciting things that has happened in the Welsh language scene—that in Merthyr we have such vibrant and thriving Welsh medium education arrangements.

All this is part and parcel of a very important situation. My fear is that, in an effort to try this or that solution, if the S4C Authority loses its measure of independence and is seen to be subsumed within the BBC empire in one form or another, that will do harm, not good, to the future of Welsh language broadcasting. I ask the Committee and Ministers to ponder on this: we created a consensus to establish the authority, and a consensus is needed now on essential changes that need to be made, but that consensus has to be worked at. A blunderbuss approach of this kind, trying to promote an order of this kind as a solution, is not the way forward. It is the most inappropriate process by which to develop the change necessary in Welsh language broadcasting. The Minister will not lose any face. He has already made amazing changes to this Bill, and I suggest that this could be one more change that the Government could accept.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

Everybody who has spoken in this debate already and very probably everybody present in the House would probably agree with the proposition that if the Government make a mistake in how they deal with this matter, a death blow could be struck at the very existence of the Welsh language. S4C is a unique body charged with a unique commission to safeguard the very existence of the Welsh language. Well, you may say, that is nothing very much—but I doubt whether many Members of this House would take that view. A living language with a living literature is a jewel in the treasury of human culture, and the Welsh language no more and no less than any other living language is such a jewel. It is 1,500 years old and was in existence at least 500 years before the French language came into being. The French language came into being only at the end of the first millennium; up till then it was a patois of Latin. That shows something of the pedigree of the language that we are talking about.

If anybody thinks that those of us who are Welsh-speaking or committed in some way or another to a loyalty to the Welsh language are overdoing the case, I ask humbly of each and every Member of this House whether, if the English language were in such jeopardy, they would not take up honourably and gallantly exactly the same position. If you thought that the language of Milton, Shakespeare and Chaucer was in jeopardy and that its very life was in doubt, I know exactly what you would do. We are prepared to say exactly the same of the Welsh language.

The next question is about how unique the circumstances were in which S4C was set up. They have already been dealt with in some detail. There was a very ugly situation in Wales; there had been massive civil disobedience, and I have no doubt that Gwynfor Evans would have given up his life. A very wise, statesmanlike Englishman who had great experience of conflicts not dissimilar to these, William Whitelaw, made an agreement with the Welsh people. He said that if they called off their protests he was prepared to give them this channel. That is exactly what happened, to his eternal credit. I think that we should be very careful with this legislation that we do not go back upon the word of that splendid statesman and gentleman.

Indeed it was an agreement. A very great jurist, many centuries ago, spelt out in Latin the principle of agreements: pacta sunt servanda—agreements are binding. This agreement is binding and I would have thought that is the strongest possible case that one could have for not including it in Schedule 4. There are two jeopardies that S4C faces: it could be starved of a sufficiency of funds so as not to allow it to be able to carry out its true purpose; and it could be so boxed in with any form of association with a greater, more powerful body, the BBC, that it would render its independence something utterly unreal.

We have heard regarding finance how a 24 per cent cut might very well reduce S4C to the point when its very existence is placed in jeopardy. I am sure I am not exaggerating the situation. The other side of it is what would happen if it was brought under the aegis of the BBC. I am not entirely sure under what authority the Government have in fact suggested that there should be such a merger—Clause 4 deals entirely with funding; nothing else. Clause 7(1)—I will not go into the detail of it—might touch upon that but I doubt it. Are there any other statutory authorities that allow the Government to do this? I doubt it. Maybe the Government are relying only on the financial pressures brought about—not in relation to S4C alone—by the general economic situation to box S4C into a corner that it would not wish to be in.

[Baroness Morgan of Ely]

My Lords—

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

I am sorry; I have not yet resumed my seat. I was only collecting my notes. I shall not delay that event very long.

[Lord St John of Fawsley]

My Lords, I have been entirely convinced by the noble Lord’s eloquence in support of Welsh as a living language which it would be a tragedy to have lost. However, I think I detected, in the middle of his eulogy to the Welsh language, a Latin phrase. Would he add his zest and enthusiasm to reviving Latin as a spoken language?

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

It is very late in this debate but I wholeheartedly agree. A survey carried out about 100 years ago showed that of words in general common parlance in the English language, 75 per cent were of Latin derivation. In Wales, it was well over 85 per cent. I believe that Latin should be revived, not as a dead language and not as a part of history, but as part of the building blocks of the languages that we use from day to day. I am very grateful to the noble Lord for that intervention.

I wish to raise a very narrow lawyer’s point. It would be ideal if the licence fee or an appropriate and guaranteed part of it could be diverted across to S4C straightaway without passing through the hands of the BBC at all, but I doubt very much whether that would be possible under the 2006 charter. I will not go into great detail about that now. If you try to deal with the licence fee then a price has to be paid. The Government, not cynically, but I think quite deliberately, are acting in a mercenary way. They are saying that they would be saving 94 per cent of the DCMS’s expenditure on S4C by transferring it to the licence payer. That is exactly it. In so far as the effect of that is concerned I will refer only very briefly to Article 47 of the 2006 charter, which sets out, almost like the main clause in the memorandum of a company, the main purposes. Article 47(4) says:

“However, the BBC may use these general powers only for the purposes set out in articles 3 to 5”.

Articles 3 to 5, of course, govern the situation completely in this connection. Article 3 says:

“The BBC exists to serve the public interest … The BBC’s main object is the promotion of its Public Purposes”.

Then it says this:

“In addition, the BBC may maintain, establish or acquire subsidiaries through which commercial activities may be undertaken to any extent permitted by a Framework Agreement”.

In other words, is the price of diverting part of the licence fee to S4C the fact of making S4C a subsidiary and slave of the BBC? As a lawyer, or an ex-lawyer, I have grave doubts that that is exactly the case; if so, it is a price that simply should not be paid.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howe of Aberavon]

My Lords, despite my Welsh ancestry and, indeed, my part-Welsh title, the House will have noticed that I do not frequently take part in debates on this subject. That perhaps uncharacteristic diffidence is because I do not speak Welsh. It does not mean to say that I have failed to take account of the language. I can add to the satisfaction of my noble friend Lord St John by saying that in my last year at Winchester College—I will come back to that later—one of the tasks that I undertook was to write a thesis on the influence of Rome on Wales and the Welsh language. That inspires me to enter this debate.

I am, indeed, Welsh. My father was Welsh and Welsh speaking. He had the wisdom to marry a Scottish/Cornish bride, so I am a completely Celtic creature. I speak in support of the amendment with that in mind. I understand, and have sympathy with, the arguments on both sides but my clear view is that—as the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, said—S4C does not require, and should not have, a place in this legislation. I do not begin to understand the complexities of the discussions that have taken place with the authority in recent years, but to put it in a Bill of this kind, which is designed to sweep away organisations of broadly this kind by ministerial signature, is not the right approach.

Familiarity of Latin by the Welsh is demonstrated by the choice of the Welsh word for the Welsh Assembly. The Scots have been left with the Scottish Assembly but the Welsh word for the Welsh Assembly is “Senedd”. If you look that up in a Welsh-English dictionary, you will find that it means a law-making body. That is a pretty firm undertaking on behalf of the independence of Wales, the Welsh language and, indeed, the Assembly.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

“Senedd” indeed means senate; it is one and the same. However, the origin of senate is “senex”, meaning an old man.

[Lord Howe of Aberavon]

I am not sure whether that learned classical intervention is designed to undermine the case that I am making or to demoralise me as I am an old man.

Considering my Welsh origin, I have not contributed a great deal to the structure and politics of the Principality. Tom Hooson was the cousin of the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, who, alas, is not with us and is unwell—we send him our best wishes. Tom Hooson was for some time—not long enough—the Member for Brecon and Radnor. In 1959, we together wrote what I think was the first booklet on the Welsh economy to be written by a political party, entitled Gwaith i Gymru, or Work for Wales. One of the propositions that we rather tentatively put forward in that booklet was one that I was able to advance, together with Tom Hooson, at the Welsh area conference at Llandrindod Wells, when Mr Henry Brooke was the Secretary of State for Wales. It was that we should have referenda—we did not call them that—in Wales on a county basis to vote yes or no for the continued closure of Welsh public houses on Sunday. We had those referenda every seven years for 35 years until my noble friend Lord Howard—Michael Howard—was able to repeal that legislation because Wales had been completely liberated. That is the way in which to achieve an objective in this case.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Rawlings]

I am coming to that a bit later, but it is taking longer every time somebody interrupts. I will get to that point.

The noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, asked whether the licence fee money could go directly to S4C from DCMS. Discussions between S4C and the BBC are ongoing. However, the BBC Trust is the established guardian of the licence fee, as set out in the royal charter and the agreement, and we do not see this position changing.

Following the Government’s decision to table an amendment to remove Clause 11 and Schedule 7 from the Bill, S4C will not appear in Schedule 7 as previously tabled and referenced in Amendment 164. Consequently, we are now exploring further options for how S4C’s proposed constitutional arrangements can be given legal effect. I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, that it is the clear view of the Government that we have no intention of abolishing S4C.

In a letter to the Prime Minister on 29 October 2010 the leaders of all four major parties in the Welsh Assembly stated that they,

“recognise the difficult financial climate and … no body that is in receipt of public money can be exempt from funding cuts”.

These reforms simply reflect this reality in a way that will protect S4C’s future and not undermine it, as my noble friend Lord Roberts said.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, I hope I make this point sincerely and in an attempt to assist the situation. At the moment, the funding of S4C is tied to RPI under Section 61A of the Broadcasting Act 1990. That can be changed without putting S4C into Schedule 4. That is the short point. Speaking for myself and, I suspect, many others, I will be delighted to support such an amendment on Report. It can be done quite simply and effectively.

[Baroness Rawlings]

I will come to the point made by the noble Lord. I appreciate the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Nickson has approached this debate; it is to be commended. He has arrived open-minded and will be persuaded by the strength of the argument. It is an example of your Lordships’ House at its best and I hope that he has been persuaded. This has been an impassioned debate, but not on party lines, as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said. It has been on the actual subject. We fully recognise, as the noble Lord, Lord Richard, rightly said, the iconic status of the channel and the contribution it makes to the cultural and economic life of Wales and to the Welsh language.

We have had a really good and interesting debate today. We are all united here in the Chamber in wanting a secure future for S4C. We have had lengthy dialogues with Cardiff to secure the future of S4C within the BBC partnership with DCMS funding. The problem lies, as had been mentioned by many noble Lords, with the index-linked funding, which is not viable anymore. Public service broadcasting is for all parts of the United Kingdom and it is not devolved. S4C’s editorial independence and its distinct entity, as the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, said, are of paramount importance. I share the passion of my noble friend Lord Roberts and all noble Lords who have supported the amendment. I understand it and of course I, along with my noble friend Lord Taylor, am fully prepared and willing to have a discussion next week to go through many of the points that have been brought up today. I therefore ask my noble friend to withdraw the amendment.

Higher Education (Basic Amount) (England) Regulations 2010

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Tuesday 14th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon]

My Lords, it seems to me that those of us on this side of the House who will vote in favour of the Government’s proposals have to answer four questions. The first is directed—fairly or unfairly, you may think—particularly at the Liberal Democrats, and was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Patten: “Why do you not honour your election pledges?”. Let us put it in the stronger terms used outside this place: “Why are you betraying the promise that you made to us?”. Let us for a moment examine that promise. It was a promise that if there was a Liberal Democrat Government, we would then seek to get rid of tuition fees. Whether that policy was wise for my party is a different matter. When I was its leader, I tried to persuade my party out of that policy in 1998, but I signally failed in a democratic party. That policy was democratically arrived at. However, the truth is, I am sad to say, that there is not a Liberal Democrat Government—there is a coalition Government. In order to put that Government together, we had to come to compromise deals with another party, which gave us some of the things we wanted and some of the things which we did not want. How else could you put a coalition deal together?

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords—

[Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon]

I shall certainly give way to the noble Lord in just a moment.

I remind the Labour Party that it had an opportunity to do a deal too, but it ran away. It did not want to participate in taking the responsibility for clearing up the mess that it left behind. It is important for the House to understand that. I agree that we have had to amend the view that we took, but we did so in order to put together a coalition Government in what we believed to be the national interest at a time of crisis. The Labour Party, too, has changed its policy, but it did not have to. I know that harsh words fall uneasily on the ears of noble Lords in this House, and I understand that, but this is a piece of naked opportunism. The truth is that Labour went into the election proposing tuition fees and is now against them. In the previous election, Labour was against tuition fees, and then proposed them. What is its policy now? Frankly, we do not know. The Leader of the Opposition says that there should be a graduate tax. Mr Johnson says he thinks that a graduate tax is unworkable—precisely the position of the noble Lord, Lord Browne—but he is then persuaded to say yes. Then, in answer to my question, the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, seemed to tell me that the Labour Party was in favour of fees. What is its policy? I do not know; but at least, if we are asked, “Why did you not fulfil your election promises?”, that question should be asked of Labour too. It did not have to propose an amendment for any reasons of national interest; it did so for reasons of an opportunistic ability to attack the Government.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

The noble Lord puts forward the proposition that if a party is not elected to government, the promises that it made and on which it sought votes in the election are no longer binding. If that is the case, every minority party can renege on any promise at any time.

[Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon]

I will make it very clear to the noble Lord. The deal that was made was a coalition deal between two parties. I remind my Liberal Democrat friends that the coalition deal was endorsed unanimously by the parliamentary party and by the party at its conference; it has the democratic endorsement of the party. Where we are at present is uncomfortable, but we would be much more uncomfortable if, having accepted the coalition deal and passed it by the internal mechanisms of the party, we now ran away from it. If the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, will forgive me, I would like to make progress; I have spoken for about six minutes already.

The next question that we have to address is whether this is necessary. In order to say that it is not, one would have to say that, uniquely, the higher education sector of this country should be excused from carrying the burdens that everybody else has to carry, and should be excused from the cuts. If the noble Baroness will allow me to make a little more progress, I will happily give way.