Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Lord Howe of Aberavon Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howe of Aberavon]

My Lords, despite my Welsh ancestry and, indeed, my part-Welsh title, the House will have noticed that I do not frequently take part in debates on this subject. That perhaps uncharacteristic diffidence is because I do not speak Welsh. It does not mean to say that I have failed to take account of the language. I can add to the satisfaction of my noble friend Lord St John by saying that in my last year at Winchester College—I will come back to that later—one of the tasks that I undertook was to write a thesis on the influence of Rome on Wales and the Welsh language. That inspires me to enter this debate.

I am, indeed, Welsh. My father was Welsh and Welsh speaking. He had the wisdom to marry a Scottish/Cornish bride, so I am a completely Celtic creature. I speak in support of the amendment with that in mind. I understand, and have sympathy with, the arguments on both sides but my clear view is that—as the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, said—S4C does not require, and should not have, a place in this legislation. I do not begin to understand the complexities of the discussions that have taken place with the authority in recent years, but to put it in a Bill of this kind, which is designed to sweep away organisations of broadly this kind by ministerial signature, is not the right approach.

Familiarity of Latin by the Welsh is demonstrated by the choice of the Welsh word for the Welsh Assembly. The Scots have been left with the Scottish Assembly but the Welsh word for the Welsh Assembly is “Senedd”. If you look that up in a Welsh-English dictionary, you will find that it means a law-making body. That is a pretty firm undertaking on behalf of the independence of Wales, the Welsh language and, indeed, the Assembly.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

“Senedd” indeed means senate; it is one and the same. However, the origin of senate is “senex”, meaning an old man.

[Lord Howe of Aberavon]

I am not sure whether that learned classical intervention is designed to undermine the case that I am making or to demoralise me as I am an old man.

Considering my Welsh origin, I have not contributed a great deal to the structure and politics of the Principality. Tom Hooson was the cousin of the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, who, alas, is not with us and is unwell—we send him our best wishes. Tom Hooson was for some time—not long enough—the Member for Brecon and Radnor. In 1959, we together wrote what I think was the first booklet on the Welsh economy to be written by a political party, entitled Gwaith i Gymru, or Work for Wales. One of the propositions that we rather tentatively put forward in that booklet was one that I was able to advance, together with Tom Hooson, at the Welsh area conference at Llandrindod Wells, when Mr Henry Brooke was the Secretary of State for Wales. It was that we should have referenda—we did not call them that—in Wales on a county basis to vote yes or no for the continued closure of Welsh public houses on Sunday. We had those referenda every seven years for 35 years until my noble friend Lord Howard—Michael Howard—was able to repeal that legislation because Wales had been completely liberated. That is the way in which to achieve an objective in this case.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Rawlings]

I do not think there is. That is why it is in this Bill.

In relation to Amendment 113D in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, it is right that S4C should remain a responsibility of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.

My noble friend Lord Roberts of Conwy is absolutely right in his well argued speech. As he started S4C, he rightly said that no order can be laid without consultation. Broadcasting is reserved as part of the Welsh devolution settlement and is, therefore, not devolved. This Bill does not represent an opportunity to reopen what was agreed as part of the devolution settlement—

[Lord Howe of Aberavon]

I wonder if my noble friend would allow me to intervene for a second? I understand that she may be making a very good point about the need for financial readjustment, but I should have thought that any sensitive Chancellor of the Exchequer or Treasury Minister, without needing to be Welsh, would recognise that relying on legislation of this nuclear kind to address the issues that she is rightly focusing on would be politically unwise and disastrous. I am quite certain that it would be possible to find a method of adjusting the financing without continually mentioning it.

[Baroness Rawlings]

I understand the concern of my noble and learned friend Lord Howe, but we go back to the current economic climate. It is not possible to have funding linked to the RPI. The reason for doing this is to secure the funding through the DCMS and the BBC. If we do it in that way it will be secured; otherwise it will not.