National Insurance Contributions (Secondary Class 1 Contributions) Bill

Debate between Lord Eatwell and Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts

Report stage
Tuesday 25th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)]

My Lords, I have not spoken on the Bill before but I add, very briefly, my support to the proposals from the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough. I have spent a lifetime in the city helping businesses grow—funding them, looking after them and developing them. They are vulnerable throughout, but they are particularly vulnerable in their early stages, which is the point of the noble Lord’s amendment.

With 25 people or fewer, it is easy to forget just how difficult it is, and how persistent an effort is needed, to get a business going, keep it going and to eventually grow it, hopefully, to a great size where it will employ people and increase the prosperity of the country. It is our feedstock—this is where I take issue with the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, who served with me on a City regulatory body many years ago—and if you cut down the trees in any one year, those trees will never reappear. We shall have a smaller number of growing companies from the years when this proposal has its impact.

It is also surprising, when I hear debates in your Lordships’ House, how many Members cannot conceive of circumstances when the pay cheque will not turn up at the end of the month. A lifetime in public service insures you against that. But, if you run a business, you have to think every day about will happen at the end of the month. Will there be a call from the bank manager saying, “I’m very sorry, I’m not going to be able to meet your payroll”? When you have responsibility for other people, that ghastly pressure is increased by the sorts of measures the Government propose to take here.

I say to the Minister, very gently, that the phrase is: revenue is vanity, profit is stability, but cash is reality. In this Bill the Government are proposing to undermine the reality of the cash that is desperately needed by the very smallest among our companies.

[Lord Eatwell (Lab)]

My Lords, the amendments proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, are a classic example of how to distort a market. She wishes not only to exempt part-time employees from the measures in the Bill but to reduce the national insurance charge on part-time employees. She does not appear to have reflected on what would be the impact on full-time employees. How many full-time employees will, as a result of this measure, lose their jobs and be replaced by two or three part-time employees? How many companies will reach a cliff edge with respect to their employment policies that will ensure they develop only part-time employees, who often have fewer opportunities, and certainly fewer opportunities for promotion, than full-time employees? What has the noble Baroness got against full-time employment? We need an answer to that. Why is she so content to distort the labour market in this way?

With respect to the amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Londesborough, I have greater sympathy with what he says, but he too is creating a cliff edge. The cliff edge is at 25 employees and it will considerably distort the operations of the market at that stage. It will discourage companies from growing above 25 employees. It will encourage the break-up of structures, so that units employ only 25 employees.

Most interestingly, the noble Lord asked for an impact assessment of the overall impact on employment of the measures in the Bill. There have been at least three—one by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, another by the OBR and another by the Treasury. They all demonstrate that, taking the measures in the Budget as a whole, employment in the next year will increase, not diminish. The error which, I am afraid, the noble Lord made in his argument is that, yes indeed, because of higher employment costs, there may be a reduction in employment per unit output, but, because of the stimulation of aggregate demand in the Budget, there will be more units of output. So, not only will these measures encourage the growth of labour productivity by reducing the input of labour per unit output but the expenditure of these measures, through a technical device called a balanced budget multiplier, will increase the level of employment in the coming year. The impact assessment is there for all to see.

Financial Services Bill

Debate between Lord Eatwell and Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts

Monday 26th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Eatwell]

My Lords, I support my noble friend’s very sensible amendment. I loved his last line: that “may” may be what is required in this respect. The amendment does two things. First, it is future-proofing—something on which the Treasury is usually very keen. Secondly, in an area where we know—and the Government have acknowledged—that abuses are taking place, it preserves the potential for self-regulation but is a shot across the bows, which should make those who are behaving improperly take much greater care. It preserves a spirit of self-regulation, if self-regulation is seen to work effectively. Given that the Treasury or the Secretary of State may by order amend Schedule 17 in the manner set out by my noble friend, I would like to commend this amendment to the Government.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

I rise briefly to support these amendments. They seem extremely sensible. I do not want to repeat what the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, has just said. I like the idea of “may”; I like the idea of self-regulation; and I like the chance for the industry to be able to put its house in order. That is clearly very sensible. The only point I would add is that we now have a situation where a substantial proportion of claims coming forward are fraudulent, semi-fraudulent or unjustified. In each case, the firm about whom the complaint is made must pay £850 to have the case investigated. That is a staggering sum of money and it ends up being paid by the consumers. We really need to find a way to short-circuit that, so that where the claims are fraudulent, something can be done to ensure that the claims management companies, rather than the firm, end up with some of the costs—and, indeed, to ensure that the costs are not passed on to the rest of us. There is a good idea here. I hope that the Government will give the amendments a sympathetic hearing.