General Election Television Debates

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Naomi Long

Wednesday 11th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

Until now, the broadcasters have made it up as they have gone along, responding to pressure here, there and everywhere. They have responded to the latest opinion polls—the exclusion and then inclusion of the Greens was done on the basis of opinion polls—but polls go up and down, so a decision on whether someone should be included will depend on when one takes note of the polls. The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. A model needs to be designed in good time, well before a general election—especially because with fixed-term Parliaments everybody knows when the election will be—and with maximum agreement, setting out fairly and squarely the rules that will apply come what may. It needs to be fair to all parties and all regions and countries of the UK. We cannot have one country excluded and one major party in the House disadvantaged compared with other smaller parties. It cannot go on like this—he is right about that.

The broadcasters came up with their first formulation—three debates, four parties—but then they changed their minds and told us that seven parties would be invited. Not only did they completely change the proposed format and bin the nonsense about dissidents being “empty chaired”; they came up with proposals that, among other fascinating things, told us that the Liberal Democrats and Plaid amounted to pretty much the same thing—I mean no disrespect to either party when I point out to the broadcasters that there is quite a big difference between them in terms of size and appeal across the UK.

Until last week, no one had agreed even to that second unsustainable debate format—Labour had not agreed; UKIP had not agreed; the Liberals were vigorously denouncing the prospect of being relegated to football conference status; and the DUP had not agreed either. We have been absolutely consistent. As I said in response to earlier interventions, we can entirely see the case for the parties that Ofcom deems “the big four” debating with one another. One can debate whether Ofcom is right, but that is what it has said, so we can see the case for the broadcasters organising the debates on that basis. At a stretch, we can see the case for including the Greens—it is arguable, although it would make for much better television, from the broadcasters’ point of view—but we do not accept that the BBC and other broadcasters can pick and choose which parties from the countries and regions of the UK they deem fit to attend.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the problem arose when the broadcasters broke their rationale simply to include UKIP, rather than sticking with the previous elections as the basis on which to decide who should participate? That is where the rot stems from.

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Lady raises the point I referred to about Ofcom’s definition for deciding which the main parties are. It is for Ofcom to make its own decisions and explain its rationale, and she certainly has a point, but we are where we are with that decision. It goes back to the point made earlier by the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales). We cannot go on making it up as we go along. We need a set of rules, well in advance of the elections, that are clear, rational, fair and understandable.

Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Naomi Long

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Naomi Long]

I do not wish to detain the House for very long. I merely want to put on record my thanks to the Government for the work they have done in bringing this Bill forward, and also to the Opposition for their support for the Bill. I welcome the progress in this matter, which we have debated many times in this House, and we also talked about it for a long time when I was in the Assembly. Those of us on the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs spent many hours discussing the issue of corporation tax and its potential positive impact on Northern Ireland and its economy, so I welcome the progress we have made in what is a relatively short period of time from the announcement. It is good to see this measure reach its Third Reading today.

Others have already said this is not a silver bullet for the economic challenges that face Northern Ireland, but it is a very important lever for the Northern Ireland Executive to have within their control to address the imbalances in the economy, to encourage further growth of our local companies and to encourage further inward investment. Even without corporation tax being reduced, Northern Ireland outperforms many other regions in attracting inward investment. This gives us another opportunity to raise our profile internationally and encourage more companies to look at Northern Ireland as a serious investment prospect, but also to see us as a competitive region where they can locate and do real business.

I look forward to seeing this Bill reach fruition. There will be challenges ahead for the Northern Ireland Executive as they go about the more complex work of setting a rate for corporation tax, particularly in terms of affordability at a time when resources are extremely tight. It will be difficult because there will be a gap between any benefits from the change and the amount they will lose to the Treasury in the interim. The Executive will have to look at that period very carefully in terms of affordability and how that is managed.

There is also a challenge in dealing with investment in skills, which are required if we are to see the full benefits of any reduction in corporation tax. There is no point in reducing corporation tax to get new businesses to come in and invest if we do not have the skilled workers to be able to take up employment in those companies. Part of the due diligence that any company will do before investment will involve looking at our skills base. That will be one of the key issues. We therefore have to see a renewed focus from the Executive on investing in skills, and particularly the right skills for the companies that we are encouraging to come to Northern Ireland.

We also face challenges in terms of infrastructure. As a civil engineer, it would be remiss of me not to mention that. It is not just our communications infrastructure, but also our physical infrastructure, which requires investment. Companies doing due diligence before investing in a region will look at such issues. It is hugely important that we are able to invest in infrastructure in a way that will both encourage and benefit companies locally who are already involved in growing their businesses and attract new inward investment to Northern Ireland.

Our connectivity will need to be defended. That is a role that both Westminster and the Assembly can have some regard to. It is hugely important that our air transport links, particularly those routes that allow us to cargo material from Northern Ireland for export markets, are protected. That should detain this House perhaps more than it has done to date.

If we are to benefit the economy and feel the true benefit of this change in corporation tax, we also need to create the kind of political stability in Northern Ireland that is conducive to creating economic growth.

[Mr Dodds]

On the economic issues and making the most of this devolved corporation tax power, does the hon. Lady agree that it is important that the Assembly and the Executive determine the sort of rate that is going to apply as quickly as possible so that Invest NI can get out into the marketplace and begin to sell Northern Ireland and the benefits of this as soon as possible? As she knows, there is a big lead-in time in terms of attracting investment?

[Naomi Long]

I am aware of the pressure to want to do that quickly, but it is also important that, as the Executive do that, the cost of it to the Northern Ireland economy is thoroughly assessed and we work out how we are going to pay for it in the interim. Otherwise, before we reap the benefits, we could leave a gap in our public finances that creates pressure, particularly from those that are already under financial pressure. It could lead to a push back against the corporation tax reduction. Getting that balance right is important. I agree that it would be wrong for people to be unnecessarily tardy, but I also think it is important that proper due diligence is done around what that level should be.

Reaping the maximum benefit from the changes under this Bill requires political stability. It requires people, when they look to Northern Ireland, to see the positive images that are so often broadcast, as opposed to some of the more negative images we have seen in recent years. If we want lasting prosperity, it has to be shared among everyone in our society. It is therefore hugely important that we see political maturing not just in terms of the Unionist-nationalist question and how that is handled politically in Northern Ireland, but in terms of the productivity of the Assembly.

High Court Judgment (John Downey)

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Naomi Long

Thursday 27th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the background to and implications of the High Court judgment on John Downey.

Let me put on record our thanks and gratitude to the Backbench Business Committee for tabling this important subject for debate in the House this afternoon. I also want to put on record the fact that the debate has been requested by all the parties from Northern Ireland represented in this House, including the Social Democratic and Labour party and the Alliance party, as well as the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon). Representations were made to the Backbench Business Committee by those parties and the hon. Lady, and also by the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), the Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, so the debate has cross-party support. Following the Attorney-General’s statement in this House on 26 February, it is important that we have this opportunity to debate at more length and in more detail the background to and implications of the High Court judgment in the John Downey case.

It would be right and proper for me to begin by putting right at the forefront of this debate the names of the four soldiers who died in the Hyde park bombing on 20 July 1982. I pay tribute to the memories of Lieutenant Anthony Daly, Trooper Simon Tipper, Lance Corporal Jeffrey Young and Squadron Quartermaster Corporal Roy Bright, who died in the horrific IRA bombing on that day. It was one of the most notorious incidents of the entire IRA campaign. It touched very, very many people and is to this day remembered by so many for the deaths of those soldiers, but also for the deaths of the horses that occurred, and the terrible images that were shown on our TV screens and in our newspapers.

We will obviously come on to debate in detail all the issues surrounding the administrative scheme for on-the-runs, the implications of the Downey judgment, the political fallout, and all that, but it is important to remember that at the heart of this case are families who have had visited upon them not only this terrible tragedy but the terrible iniquity of justice having been denied to them. That has been very eloquently, movingly and emotionally put by the families’ representatives. We all feel for those families today. Indeed, their hurt and anguish is also felt by very many other victims of terrorism in Northern Ireland and elsewhere across the United Kingdom. When they look at this judgment and see the revelations regarding the administrative scheme, the hurt they feel from the loss of their loved one is brought home to them all the more as they realise that there are not only people out there who negotiated what turned out to be a “get out of jail free” card scheme, but people in Government who were prepared to implement such a scheme behind the backs of the public and Parliament—a scheme that those victims knew nothing about.

The judgment in the John Downey case was revealed on 25 February. The court had actually ruled the previous Friday, but the judgment was not made public until, as I understand it, consideration had been given to a possibility of an appeal by the Attorney-General. He decided not to appeal the case, so it would be useful if the Secretary of State could give an indication, when she responds, of the reasons why no appeal was made against the judgment.

The news that Downey would not be prosecuted and that the prosecution would be stayed was bad enough in terms of the individual case, but what came as a real bombshell to the public and everybody concerned was the revelation of the administrative scheme for on-the-runs. As I have said, the fact of the matter is that the scheme was not the subject of any kind of parliamentary debate, discussion or scrutiny at any time over many years. It had no statutory or legal basis and there was no public awareness of it. I will come on in more detail to some of the allegations that have been flying about that people should have known about the scheme and that there was enough information in the public domain—as if it was good enough, in relation to a matter of such importance, to say that we should have all been able to put together the pieces of the jigsaw, instead of having a normal process, with a statement and a debate, through which we could properly consider all the matters.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for placing the people who are most important in this debate—the victims of this crime—at the centre of what he is saying. Specific allegations were made against the right hon. Gentleman and his current party leader in Jonathan Powell’s book, which claimed that they were fully aware of the OTR scheme and happy for it to go ahead, provided that the blame was laid at the door of David Trimble. Would the right hon. Gentleman like to comment on the record about that specific allegation, which has been repeated throughout?

[Mr Dodds]

I am very happy to take that on board and I will deal with it in detail when I come to that part of my speech. I have listened to a lot of the commentary and the only allegation out there about the Democratic Unionist party is one reference in one tiny section of one book. Interestingly enough, it was never mentioned in the memoirs of the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain). I will come on to it later, but what it refers to is not the on-the-runs administrative scheme, but the issue of whether the Government were going to introduce legislation. It came after the talks at Leeds castle. The Government intended to introduce legislation and we made it very clear that that was a matter for them, but that we would not sign up or subscribe to it and that we would oppose it in the House of Commons, as we did, and table amendments to it. It did not relate to the administrative on-the-runs scheme, which was done as a dirty deal behind the backs of everybody concerned. I will come on to the issue in more detail in due course.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dodds]

I am very grateful to the hon. Lady, because I do not now need to go through the next part of my speech. She has outlined the sequence of events immediately after the legislation was withdrawn, and she is absolutely correct. The administrative scheme was ramped up, and the police set up a special unit to deal with it and look at all the cases. When the coalition Government came into office in 2010, the scheme was continued. As we now know, 38 cases have been considered in the period since 2010.

As I have said, there were 228 cases in total, and I understand that 192 letters were issued. There are other statistics for the numbers that were returned, for the people who were arrested and for the people who were investigated. I would be grateful if the Secretary of State updated us on the precise details.

[Naomi Long]

Was the right hon. Gentleman as surprised as I was to find out from the Secretary of State’s written ministerial statement earlier this week that in order to know how many letters had been issued and cases processed, Sinn Fein’s own records are now one of the sources of information? The Government now have to consult Sinn Fein to find out how many letters were issued by Government.

[Mr Dodds]

I was interested to read that statement, but nothing surprises me any more about this scheme, quite frankly. One advantage of the current array of investigations and inquiries is that, between them all, we will get to the bottom of all the facts, uncover exactly what has gone on and, I hope, get to a better place as we move forward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dodds]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. He is absolutely right that had it not been for the revelations in the Downey case, we would still be in the dark about all this. The two-year release scheme was obnoxious, and it remains obnoxious because anyone convicted of a terrorism-related crime that took place before 1998 can still avail themselves of its provisions. If someone is now found who has evidence against them of an offence that occurred before 1998 and was related to terrorism in Northern Ireland, they can go to prison for at most two years. That continues to cause great offence in Northern Ireland, but at least that scheme was out in the public domain. It was debated in this House and debated publicly, and decisions were taken as a result. However, there was never such transparency in this scheme. As my hon. Friend has pointed out, we would still be in the dark if we had not had the Downey case.

We need to find out how this all happened—who knew and when they knew—and to examine the scheme’s legality. We also need to ensure that another Downey case never happens, and that such letters have no effect when it comes to being able to stay prosecutions.

When the details emerged, the Attorney-General made a statement in this House on 26 February, but it appeared to many people that that would be it. There was no indication in any statements made at the time that there would be any further consideration of the matter. Indeed, Ministers were on the radio at lunch time that day saying that, as far as they were concerned, that was the end of the matter and nothing more could be done.

As the House knows, the First Minister of Northern Ireland—my party leader, Peter Robinson—made it very clear that had he known about or been made aware of the scheme when the restoration of devolution was negotiated, we would not have been able to proceed with devolution on that basis. He said that the matter was of considerable concern, given that policing and justice has become a devolved matter, that it is now the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Northern Ireland Executive, and that the Justice Minister is responsible for those matters. He said that given that the First Minister, the Justice Minister and the parties in Northern Ireland, apart from Sinn Fein, were not aware of the scheme, it needed to be addressed urgently. He made it very clear that there had to be a judge-led inquiry.

I welcome the fact that that inquiry was announced by the Prime Minister on 27 February. I welcome the fact that on that day, the Secretary of State also issued a statement, which said:

“We will take whatever steps are necessary to make clear…in a manner that will satisfy the courts…that any letters issued cannot be relied upon to avoid questioning or prosecution for offences where information or evidence becomes available now or later.”—[Official Report, 28 February 2014; Vol. 576, c. 39WS.]

I welcome the fact that Lady Justice Hallett has been appointed. Her terms of reference are in the public domain. The intention is that she should report by the end of May.

Some people in Northern Ireland were critical of the appointment of the judge-led inquiry. Some of those people had nothing to offer other than base political point scoring and have not contributed anything towards getting to the bottom of these matters. We were very keen that the inquiry should not be dragged out over a long period, as we have seen with so many inquiries that relate to Northern Ireland matters, and that it should not lead to a panoply of lawyers trooping in and out, extending the process so that we did not get an outcome for months, if not years. I therefore welcome the fact that it will be a short, sharp, judge-led inquiry that will be able to examine the papers and deal with many of the issues.

I welcome the fact that the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, under the chairmanship of the hon. Member for Tewkesbury, has taken steps to set up an inquiry. The Justice Committee in Northern Ireland, under the chairmanship of my friend Paul Givan, the Assembly Member for Lagan Valley, has also initiated an inquiry. It had its first session on 25 March, at which the permanent secretary at the Department of Justice appeared. Interestingly, the permanent secretary, who is a former official in the Northern Ireland Office, admitted to having knowledge of the secret OTR scheme while in that role, but apparently he did not feel that it was necessary to inform the Justice Minister of it when he became permanent secretary at the Department. That raises questions as well, but it is for the Justice Committee in Northern Ireland to pursue them.

[Naomi Long]

As a former Minister, the right hon. Gentleman will know that a civil servant is not at liberty to give information about the role that they played as a civil servant for one Minister to a new Government taking office. Although it may seem bizarre and frustrating that that knowledge was available in the Department of Justice, it would have been thoroughly inappropriate and, in fact, illegal under the civil service code for the permanent secretary to have shared it with anyone.

[Mr Dodds]

I understand that completely. We are all aware of the rules about disclosure in relation to previous Ministers and all the rest of it. That is one reason why the judge-led inquiry is so significant and important. The judge will be able to inquire into the papers and have before her the various documents, even if they relate to previous Administrations. That matter is also important for the other inquiries, because we must get to the bottom of all the facts and of who knew what and when.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dodds]

I shall be brief. Given the gravity of the situation and the need to ensure that these matters are properly aired, I do want to give time to other hon. Members to contribute.

The hon. Member for North Down has rightly pointed to the reasons for the absence of the right hon. Member for Neath. We understand also that the Minister of State has another commitment. [Interruption.] I am glad to see that he is now present, although he was not here for the start of the debate.

All sorts of allegations are floating about and it is said that everybody should have known about the scheme. We have dealt with the Sinn Fein comments. We know about their claims that there needed to be invisibility and that the scheme needed to be hidden in case there was a crisis. We have had references to the Eames-Bradley report, but examination of it does not bear out the allegation that the scheme was known. We have seen allegations about the Policing Board. When one examines the record—I will not go into the detail—again, that is disproven.

On the Powell book, I have dealt with that matter clearly. This was not about the administrative scheme. It was about the legislation that was being brought forward, and it is completely wrong to allege that the DUP was somehow part of any kind of information sharing in relation to the scheme. I make no allegation that other politicians in Northern Ireland knew about the scheme either.

[Naomi Long]

Would it be right to say that this scheme was already in train at the point when those allegations were made? The scheme was already operating behind everyone’s back, and that was almost being redressed by saying that people had knowledge that they did not have.

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Lady is right. The consensus that exists in relation to the approach by all the parties in Northern Ireland generally and many other commentators bears out the fact that this matter was withheld not just from the public, but from the political classes in Northern Ireland and those who were dealing with negotiations at that time.

I close by saying that there are issues about the authority for the continuation of the scheme after 2010 when these matters were devolved, and that will have to be looked at by the judicial inquiry. There are also grave implications for the continuation of the Haass process, although I do not think it should be called the Haass process any more as Mr Haass has gone, not to return. On the talks about the past and about parades and flags, there is no doubt that talks and discussions were continuing, negotiations were taking place, and one party at the table was aware of the scheme that provided an effective amnesty for certain individuals. Not to have it revealed, for others not to know anything about it, was a grave betrayal of trust.

There are those who would say that the answer to all this is to throw everything up in the air at Stormont, get rid of devolution and get back to direct rule. Well, this scheme illustrates what happens when politicians in Northern Ireland do not have their hand on the tiller.

I speak to some of our Unionist friends back home, who urge people to tear down what has been built up, who say that as a result of this we should all get out of Stormont and bring the whole thing down. But when we look at the issue of the iniquitous, immoral and deceitful on-the-runs scheme, when we look at the issues of the Parades Commission and the flying of the Union flag, what do we find they all have in common? They are the product of direct rule. They are the product of a situation where Unionists—I say this as a party political point—did not have influence or power in relation to that decision making. It would be a travesty to suggest that the way to correct the ills of this scheme is to tear down devolution at Stormont.

It is important that the inquiries all take their course. We eagerly await their outcome. Let us put it on record that as far as this party is concerned, if these matters are not adequately and properly dealt with in the way the Secretary of State outlined in her statement on 27 February, we will have to return to the issue again. This is not going to go away.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Naomi Long

Monday 18th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for explaining that, and I understand that. It is indicative that this came to him only relatively recently and prompted him to table the new clause. There are a lot of ideas out there, many conflicting, in relation to the past. There are many good ideas coming from many different sources, which is one reason the Haass process is important—he will be taking all of them on board. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will put forward this idea as part of that process. It would be somewhat at odds with the Haass process if we were to pass new clause 1 and new clause 3, because it would seem that the House was legislating in advance of any agreement or full-scale negotiations. It is another contribution and the proper way forward might be to feed it into the Haass process and to seek other people’s views on it. I am not sure whether it is right to push it in the House today.

[Naomi Long]

I see this as a constructive proposal, but does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is the potential for it to become another partial solution that addresses part of the past, and is therefore not the comprehensive solution we seek?

[Mr Dodds]

I will deal with the point about partiality and a holistic approach in a moment, but I want to make some points about new clause 1, having had a reasonably cursory look at the details and having listened to the hon. Member for Foyle.

On the proposal for the Secretary of State to

“appoint a person or persons to prepare an analysis of findings, issues, patterns or lessons”,

it seems to me that one man’s analysis is another man’s prejudiced point of view that comes with political baggage. I can see all sorts of difficulties in finding someone or some people who would be acceptable right across the board, whom everybody would say was fair, and whom people would trust enough to permit them to do the analysis and be broadly content with whatever they came up with. I think that is a recipe for further contention and arguments about the past. Even very detailed judicial and other investigations over many years, costing lots of money, have not drawn a line under anything for the relatives, and certainly have not done so for the public. One wonders how far the proposal would take us and what its purpose is, because it might provoke more hurt on behalf of others, or more contention, strife and difficulties.

My other point, which has just been mentioned by the hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long), is about the problem of partiality. I asked the hon. Member for Foyle about the list of reports from which an analysis or a narrative might be drawn, and he kindly said that the “other new mechanisms” under subsection (3)(f) of new clause 1 might include what comes out of Haass, a de Silva-type review of archives or investigations in other jurisdictions. However, if those are added to reports from the other bodies mentioned in paragraphs (a) to (e), we would have a list of official investigations that will inevitably and invariably result—this is one problem of current investigations into the past—in a preponderance of evidence coming out, issues arising or events being investigated that involve members of the security forces. That is because members of the security forces and the authorities keep records, which are the means through which such matters can be investigated.

In that list of reports, I fail to see any real analysis or narrative that would include any great in-depth investigation of any paramilitary murders, whether loyalist or republican. That is just the reality of all reports that we have seen up to now. It is one reason we hear reasonable people on both sides of the community in Northern Ireland say time and again, and I have a lot of sympathy with the view: “All this concentration on the past is one-sided and is designed to rewrite history, because all we see is a massive concentration on the 10% of deaths”—every death is regrettable, so I make no issue about the sorrow of the relatives of those killed—“in which members of the security forces were involved.”

That fact has to be remembered. I want to put on the record the fact that 3,530 deaths are attributable to the troubles, euphemistically called, that Northern Ireland went through. Even to state that figure brings home to us the terrible tragedy and devastation inflicted on Northern Ireland over the years: more than 3,500 deaths, with many hundreds of deaths in some years. Some 297 of those deaths involved the Army and low hundreds involved members of the police, but more than 1,700 were the responsibility of the Provisional IRA. We do not, however, see a proportional concentration by the press and the media or by investigations and anything else into that category of deaths. There were also 500, 600 or 700 deaths at the hands of loyalist paramilitaries, which is equally abhorrent and wrong. The vast majority of deaths in Northern Ireland were the responsibility of illegal paramilitary organisations. Where is the balance in the hon. Gentleman’s proposal, and where will the concentration be that can lead to closure for people who have suffered from the deaths that occurred at the hands of the Provisional IRA and others?

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Naomi Long

Tuesday 9th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Lady asks for clarification; I think the position is pretty clear. The position of those who would see themselves as Irish, or who hold an Irish passport and live in the United Kingdom, would not be affected at all. The exception allowed for in the 2000 Act as amended allows people who do not reside in the United Kingdom, but who do reside and have a residence qualification in the Irish Republic, to donate to Northern Ireland parties. We are saying that that is a back door route; the donations may be from individuals, companies and organisations in the Irish Republic, but that money can come from wherever—there is no regulation whatsoever. That is why we have tabled the amendment.

[Naomi Long]

I concur with the right hon. Gentleman’s concerns about international donations, but does he not agree that closing down all donations from the Irish Republic for parties that operate on an all-Ireland basis would not be fair, when parties that operate on a Northern Ireland or UK-wide basis can still get donations from the whole of the UK? Is it not more important that the Minister of State goes away and looks at how we can deal with the international issue in collaboration with the Irish Government, who manage their rules?

[Mr Dodds]

I have asked the Minister to take the matter away and consider it, but the fundamental point is that we are talking about the United Kingdom. When it comes to laws on donations, the electoral system for this House, and the way in which Members of the House are treated, right across the board, I believe that we are a Parliament of the United Kingdom, and Members of the House should all be equal, regardless of where we come from.

As far as the political set-up in Northern Ireland is concerned, there is absolutely nothing to stop political parties getting donations from any part of the United Kingdom, although I have to say that it is not common for Northern Ireland parties—the hon. Lady can bear this out—to be inundated with donations from other parts of the United Kingdom. I think that parties on this side of the water have that market well and truly cornered, whatever the source of the donations. We certainly do not get donations from the unions in Northern Ireland, either.

This is a point of principle for us, I suppose. The hon. Lady may not agree with it, and she has a perfectly valid perspective, but our view is that we are part of the United Kingdom, and we should all abide equally by the rules of the United Kingdom. The fundamental point is that the situation is not only wrong in principle but wide open to abuse; a coach and horses could be driven through the provisions, in ways that run contrary to the reasons for introducing the measures in the 2000 Act. They were brought in to pander to Sinn Fein in particular. Whatever the reasons may have been for that, years ago, those reasons have long since ceased to apply, and everybody should be on a level playing field.

--- Later in debate ---

[Naomi Long]

I agree entirely. There is a serious risk if people no longer trust their politicians and no longer trust their institutions to act in the public interest. The only way we can overcome that is by clearing the matter up. No party can easily defend itself while this information remains secret. I am willing to accept the Secretary of State maintaining the discretion as to when the information will be published, but I see no risk to anyone from a decision being made now that makes donors and parties aware that anything donated after January will be made public, when the Minister of State and the Secretary of State are convinced that it is safe to do so.

[Mr Dodds]

To be absolutely clear, what the hon. Lady is talking about is bringing forward the date from October to January. That would not have any effect on any donations up to now or any donations before January next year, so in relation to the wider issues and the context in which we are speaking about this, the measure would take effect only from next year. Is that right?

[Naomi Long]

That is absolutely correct. I made it clear on Second Reading that I would be in favour of any measure that retrospectively exposed donors to publication. I believe that would be unjust while there is a legal question about whether they had the expectation that donations made in the prescribed period would not be made public. At a very personal level, they understood that to be the case. If we are to have honour and integrity in politics, that should extend to people’s understanding of agreements that have been made, so I would not favour retrospective exposure. Only donations made after January would be affected and that would come about only after the Secretary of State had ruled that it was safe to do so. I therefore wish to press the matter to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dodds]

On clause 3 and the ending of the dual mandate between Members of this House and Members of the Assembly, our party made it clear some time ago that we would be bringing this matter to the point that by 2015, as was recommended, dual mandates would be ended. We are working towards that, and it needs to be made very clear in this Committee tonight that this Bill does not end dual mandates; the parties in Northern Ireland are ending dual mandates, and they are doing so for the reasons that have been advanced, which are that we have now moved forward to a position where politics is much more stable, and the Assembly and the Executive are up and running. We are therefore in a very different position from the one we were in only a short time ago, when dual mandates were not only preferable, but essential, for the reasons laid out very clearly by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lagan Valley (Mr Donaldson) and because of the leading political figures in this House who were playing the important—the crucial—role of bringing about peace, stability and devolution in Northern Ireland. That would not have worked if there had not been that dual mandate at that time; that is absolutely the case.

There is a tendency sometimes to look at situations from the perspective of today, rather than looking at the context of the time. I want to pay tribute to all Members who held dual mandates at that time. I want to do so not because I was one of those Members who held a dual mandate, but because they put themselves and their families under enormous stress and strain in terms of the work load, but still carried out an immensely powerful job, as was recognised through the votes of the people, who consistently voted for them. Therefore it is only right and proper to pay tribute to those politicians who did that in very difficult circumstances, and who had their pay cut, we must remember—it was not as if they were doing it for two salaries. It was done for the reasons set out, and also because, to return to an earlier discussion, there were very real threats against politicians, and not too many people were prepared to come forward and put their head above the parapet. Every Member in our party, and Members of other parties as well, including the SDLP and the Alliance, suffered very severe threats at that time, and actual attacks on their person, their offices and on people close to them. That was the reality of the situation we lived in.

[Naomi Long]

That point was also made by the right hon. Gentleman’s colleagues on Second Reading, and it is important to put on the record that nobody is suggesting that people who served during that period did not have a justification for doing so. Those who seek fast reform make the point that that period is now at an end.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Dodds]

Yes, I agree with that. The decision was taken for Scotland and Wales when we debated the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, while the position in Northern Ireland was left open to allow for further consultation and discussion with the political parties there. That discussion was held. It was carried out in a very full way—indeed, in many respects there was more consultation and discussion about this issue than many others. A view was reached that is supported by a clear majority among the parties represented in the Assembly, and it is also a cross-community view. Of course, not every party agrees with it, but that is a significant development.

[Naomi Long]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Government’s proposal as it stands not only ensures that the next set of elections will not happen concurrently, but reduces the opportunity for that to happen in future, with the result that there will be less ad hoc-ery—for want of a better term—in setting election dates? The Government’s proposal will ensure that they no longer coincide, which is to be welcomed.

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Lady anticipates the exact point I was going to conclude with. Clause 7 takes care of the problem for 2015, but by permanently fixing the Assembly term at five years—again, as in Wales and Scotland—it also takes care of any future problems with overlaps between Assembly and Westminster elections.

For those reasons—and also because the clause ensures that Northern Ireland is absolutely four-square in line with the other devolved legislatures, in Scotland and Wales, as part of this great United Kingdom—I am more than delighted to support the Government on clause 7.

--- Later in debate ---

[Naomi Long]

As I said on Second Reading, I support clause 9. I acknowledged at that time the existence of the twin anomalies that because Justice Ministers were appointed outwith the d’Hondt process, they could end up with a Ministry more than they were entitled to under d’Hondt, and could also lose that Ministry on the whim of a cross-community vote—although I must add, in fairness to parties in the Executive who may feel fearful, that that has not been exercised, or been threatened or in any other way intimated, by any of them.

I am grateful for the way in which the Government have negotiated and listened to what has been said by my party and others, and I welcome the clause. I think it important that including the Justice Minister in the d’Hondt system will result in a fairer arrangement, whether we gain or lose in party-political terms.

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Lady is right to say that there has been no threat or attempt to change the Justice Minister under the current arrangement, that the Northern Ireland Office has listened, and that by and large the parties in Northern Ireland have agreed with this provision. However, in the light of what was said by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), may I ask whether she agrees with me that no attempt is being made to change the current special arrangements relating to the role and functions of the Minister vis-à-vis the Executive?

[Naomi Long]

That is entirely consistent with what the Government are proposing. The issue relates simply to the Minister’s appointment and security of tenure. Concerns were raised by my own party and indeed by other parties, and the Government, having listened to other parties in the Executive, took those concerns on board and formulated proposals which addressed them. That was helpful.

I have to say that my view of how an Executive should be formed in future differs from that of the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and his party. We have been open and honest about the fact that we would much prefer the reforms of the Assembly to include a move away from d’Hondt and towards the election of all Ministers by means of a cross-community vote, because we believe that that would enhance collectiveness in the Executive. There would have to be agreement among the Northern Ireland parties for that to happen. I should add that I do not consider d’Hondt to be a normal way of appointing Ministers; I consider it to be a mechanism resulting from the Good Friday agreement which was required to manage an abnormal political situation. I hope that, when we seek to reform the Assembly more widely, that will be on the table for discussion along with everything else. However, I support what the Government are attempting to do, and oppose the attempt to change it.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Naomi Long

Monday 24th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to point out the glaring discrepancy in accountability arrangements for this money. That is not tolerable, because all the political parties that take their seats in this House are at a disadvantage compared with Members who do not take their seats and who can use the representative money for whatever they like.

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is ironic that somebody like me, as the sole Member from a party, has no access to such money whereas multiple Members of another party who never turn up to this place to do the work they are elected to do have access to it for policy support and development?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) has been making his comeback with an amazing tour de force and has been very generous in giving way, but I gently point out that he has now been speaking for 34 minutes and quite a few of his colleagues wish to speak as well. As much as we are enjoying his speech, I am sure that he is going to give us his final words about his views on the Bill.

Northern Ireland

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Naomi Long

Tuesday 23rd April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Naomi Long]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that those opinion poll findings are the reason why, despite Sinn Fein having launched its campaign for a border poll with great fanfare, we have not heard much about it since?

[Mr Dodds]

That is absolutely right and, interestingly, when Sinn Fein voters were polled, a quarter of them also said they would stay in the United Kingdom. So, certainly from our perspective, things are changing in Northern Ireland in a positive and good way.

We face a number of challenges, however, including some major economic issues. We have heard a lot about them already today. In trying to build the economy, tourism is a key sector, and today is Titanic Belfast’s first anniversary. That is an iconic building, and I take some pride in it because I brought the project to the very first meeting of the Executive when I was Economy Minister in 2007, and we managed to get some substantial financial support for it. People at that stage queried whether it would be a success, but today it can be proved that it has been a success, because in the first year there have been 807,340 visitors, almost half a million of them from outside Northern Ireland and from 128 different countries. That contributed almost £30 million to the economy. It is a fantastic benefit to Belfast and to Northern Ireland as a whole. It is a world-class tourism project and product.

I recently visited the Giant’s Causeway visitor centre, built under the Northern Ireland Executive, which is attracting lots of visitors, again from outside Northern Ireland, which is the key point because it has added value to the economy. In 2012, the Olympic year, hotel occupancy in Northern Ireland in June was at the same level as that in central London, which is incredible when one thinks about it.

amendment of the law

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Naomi Long

Monday 25th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

All of us who sat in the Chamber throughout last week’s Budget statement will be acutely aware of the context in which this debate is taking place. Global economic conditions remain extremely challenging and the impact on the UK economy has led to the downgrading of many of last year’s Budget predictions.

The people we represent, who listened to the statement outside this place, were realistic about the Budget, but they also hoped for measures that would encourage inward investment and growth; give businesses confidence and access to finance to create new jobs and help grow their export markets; ease the pressure on family budgets and small businesses alike; tackle inequality in society; and stimulate desperately needed growth.

Although talk of an aspiration nation is great rhetoric and a worthy aim, it is the job of Government not only to ensure that people are encouraged to have aspirations, but, if there is to be real improvement, to create the context in which they have the opportunities and support to fulfil them.

In the brief time available I want to focus on a few aspects of the Budget, welcoming some of the positive measures and highlighting a number of areas where more could be done.

I commend the Government for upholding their commitment to spending 0.7% of gross national income on international development. Given the current economic climate, it is understandable, though regrettable, that, despite the fact that this allocation represents a small fraction of overall Government expenditure, it comes under continuing pressure. However, by standing by the commitment, the UK is showing leadership in the international community. Aid well spent is a powerful tool to tackle severe global poverty, to assist some of the poorest nations in becoming more self-sustaining and to support global justice, human rights and security. Moreover, although it is spent abroad, it also contributes to protecting our own national interest.

In that vein, I also welcome the fact that at the same time as the Treasury is seeking to tackle tax avoidance in the UK—which we all welcome—it has also committed to prioritising dealing with international tax avoidance by UK companies, which is depriving many nations from the transition from aid to trade. I hope that it will be robust in its actions.

I also welcome the increase in the personal tax allowance, which will lift many of those in the lowest paid employment out of tax altogether. If it were part of a package of measures to tackle poverty more comprehensively, it would be even more welcome. However, as I noted last year, as an anti-poverty measure it is neither the most effective nor the most targeted approach. Although the poorest working families will benefit, raising the personal allowance will also benefit many others.

In the time remaining, I want to comment briefly on measures that will impact on Northern Ireland in particular. I welcome the reduction in corporation tax, which is a particularly sensitive issue given our land border with the Republic of Ireland, where corporation tax is significantly lower at 12.5%. Although it would not be a silver bullet, the devolution of corporation tax has been identified by industry, the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee and the Northern Ireland Executive as an important tool in stimulating the economy and attracting inward investment. The UK-wide reduction, though modest, is a step in the right direction and will also lower the potential cost to the Northern Ireland Assembly should this tax power be devolved, as many of us wish. It is disappointing that that devolution was not announced in the Budget. I trust that the Prime Minister will have more positive news for the First and Deputy First Ministers when he meets them to discuss the matter tomorrow.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

The hon. Lady can be assured that virtually all the Northern Ireland Assembly parties support what she has just said. Does she agree that it is important that their meeting with the Prime Minister tomorrow has the endorsement of all major business groups, major community groups and people who are concerned about jobs and employment in Northern Ireland?

Security in Northern Ireland

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Naomi Long

Wednesday 21st November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

On the issue of crime in general, does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, as a consequence of our history of paramilitary activity, racketeering is a particular problem in Northern Ireland, as many people who have moved away from their paramilitary past have not moved away from its associated criminality?

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Lady and I both represent Belfast constituencies, so we know very well the problems that remain. She is right to highlight the link between criminality and people who were formerly heavily engaged in paramilitary activity. That has been an enormous problem. Although many people formerly involved in paramilitary organisations are today making genuine efforts to move their communities forward, unfortunately others try to have a foot in both camps. We must ensure that the full rigour of the law comes down upon those who want to have it both ways, but we should help those who have genuinely changed.

There is no doubt that the overall security situation is very different now from what it was 25 years ago. However, although the dark days of the past have gone, it would be reckless to ignore the significant challenges we face. We must therefore debate these matters, as we are doing today. I look forward to hearing from the Secretary of State, and I commend the motion to the House.

Baha’i Community (Iran)

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Naomi Long

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Westminster Hall

[Naomi Long]

I am aware of that. Indeed, I am very conscious of the fact that the economic exclusion of Baha’is from society in Iran is part of the Government’s approach to the persecution that they undertake, but it also affects those who are not Baha’i, who are often employed in those businesses and also lose their jobs as a result.

The persecution of Iranian Baha’is has a lengthy history going back to the inception of their religion. Many Baha’is were arrested or killed following the 1979 revolution. Denial of the right of freedom of religious belief shifted in the early 1990s to social, economic and cultural restrictions, to which we have referred and which have blocked the development of the 300,000-member community through the deprivation of livelihood, the destruction of cultural heritage and the obstruction of young people’s access to higher education. In recent years, there has been an increase in the number of Baha’is arrested and detained for religious reasons. It went from four in 2004 to 109 in April 2012. It is estimated that 116 Baha’is are in prison today for their faith.

The special rapporteur’s report speaks first of “serious discrimination” against the Baha’i community in Iran, expressing alarm about the

“systemic and systematic persecution of members of the Baha’i community, including severe socio-economic pressure, and arrests and detention.”

The entire Baha’i community is subject to identification and monitoring by agencies of the Iranian state, as mandated by a confidential directive authored by the head of the Iranian armed forces in 2005. Baha’i schoolchildren are monitored and slandered by officials in schools, and those who openly declare their religion when pressured to deny their faith may be expelled from schools and universities.

On 31 May 2012, in a joint statement, a number of human rights organisations expressed concern about the systematic deprivation of and discrimination against the Baha’i in institutes of higher education, in violation of the international covenant on economic, social and cultural rights. Hundreds of Baha’i students have reportedly been banned from entering public and private universities. That denial of access to education at primary, secondary and tertiary level actively contributes to the long-term economic and social exclusion of Baha’is in Iranian society.

The special rapporteur’s report also deplored the Government’s tolerance of an intensive defamation campaign aimed at inciting discrimination and hatred against Baha’is. That propaganda asserts that Baha’is have recruited members by irregular means or acted against national security, in collaboration with the west or with Israel. Attempts by the Iranian Government to link religious belief to subversive political views have created a hugely potent sectarian mix, highlighted in “Inciting Hatred: Iran’s media campaign to demonise Baha’is”—a report of the Baha’i International Community, published in October 2011. Contrary to the propaganda, the Baha’i community is committed to non-violence and non-partisanship.

Fears are rising among international experts on ethnic, racial and religious cleansing that wider and more violent attacks against the Baha’i community may be forthcoming. That is based on the situation that has been developing in recent years, including the emergence of Government documents that display the intention to identify and monitor all the activities of the Baha’is and all their contacts.

In March 2006, a United Nations official publicly disclosed a letter, dated October 2005, from Iranian military headquarters instructing state intelligence services, police units and the revolutionary guard to make a

“comprehensive and complete report of all activities”

of Baha’is

“for the purpose of identifying all individuals of this misguided sect”.

Since 2005, a vigorous campaign has been waged in the state-run news media against the Baha’is, and the targeting of their children for harassment and abuse by teachers and administrators in the schools system throughout the country has occurred, against the backdrop of a general upsurge in violence against Baha’is and their properties. In March and May 2008, the structure of the religion was more directly targeted with the arrest and imprisonment of the seven national-level Baha’i leaders.

Reports of the condition of one Baha’i community in the city of Semnan may offer a case study in the worsening trajectory of persecution facing Baha’is. Semnan is a town of 125,000 people, east of Tehran. It is home to a Baha’i community of several hundred people. During the past three years, reports from Semnan have demonstrated mounting evidence of an orchestrated effort to escalate significantly the persecution of Baha’is in the town. They have been subjected to arson attacks on homes and businesses and the forced closure of Baha’i-owned businesses, including the raiding and sealing of two factories in May 2012, leading to the denial of employment for 53 individuals, a significant proportion of whom were not Baha’i.

Since 2009, at least 30 Baha’is have been arrested and detained, 26 of whom have been sentenced to prison terms. The authorities have facilitated a campaign of incitement to hatred against them, which has seen the distribution of anti-Baha’i pamphlets, the use of anti-Baha’i rhetoric in Friday sermons in Semnan mosques and, perhaps most disturbingly of all, schoolchildren being targeted for insults, mistreatment and even physical violence. Fellow pupils have been encouraged by teachers to hurt their Baha’i classmates physically, and administrators have sought to segregate Baha’i students from their peers.

The Baha’i community of the UK is therefore deeply concerned that the Iranian authorities are using Semnan as a training site for refining and improving their methods of oppressing Iranian Baha’is nationwide. The goals of that campaign appear to be aligned with an infamous Government policy memorandum from 1991, which effects a policy of the extirpation of every Baha’i community in Iran. The memorandum states that the Government’s dealings with the Baha’is must be conducted in a way that blocks their progress and development. It goes on to give clear instructions for the expulsion of Baha’is from higher education and for Baha’i children to be enrolled only in schools with

“a strong and imposing ideology”.

It also instructs that individuals who identify themselves as Baha’i be denied employment.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Lady for bringing the matter to the attention of the House. I have had frequent meetings with Peter Black from the Baha’i community in my constituency about such issues. This House and country are very good, both domestically and in their representations, on the issue of the persecution of the Baha’i in Iran. Does she believe that the EU could do more as a whole to press Iran to stop the persecution and prevent the ultimate destruction of the Baha’is there?

[Naomi Long]

The international community can do a huge amount, and the EU has to play its role in that. The Government have shown great leadership, and I am about to make specific requests based on where they can show further leadership.

The situation is clearly grave, and the treatment of the Baha’i community is an indicator of the lengths to which the Iranian authorities are willing to go in the persecution of religious and cultural minorities. It is hugely important that the Government continue to speak with a strong voice on the international stage about human rights, of which freedom of religion and conscience are key. That is why I want to raise my concerns with the Minister today.

Northern Ireland Economy

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Naomi Long

Thursday 1st March 2012 Westminster Hall

[Naomi Long]

The hon. Gentleman is one step ahead of me, as always. I thank him for bringing that point to my attention. I was about to say that the opportunity to consider aviation as part of the Committee’s future studies is hugely important, because we can look at the interconnectedness of all aspects in terms of the economy and the ability to deliver new opportunities for Northern Ireland.

Another area in which Westminster has at least some control is banking, although, as the hon. Member for East Antrim indicated, that control is perhaps not as extensive as we would wish. Much has been said already that I do not wish to rehash. I will simply say that access to finance for growth continues to be a significant challenge for the private sector. Companies that are not just viable but extremely competitive, even in a difficult economic climate, and which wish to have liquidity in order to expand are finding it incredibly difficult. Even the figures that we can access in order to determine how well banks are distributing the money available are so opaque that it is difficult to hold banks to account. I mentioned in an intervention the circular argument being delivered. On one hand, banks say that money is available but that no one is applying; on the other hand, businesses say that they are being dissuaded even from applying. We need to cut through that and find out exactly what the situation is.

I will touch briefly on a couple of other economic issues. VAT has been mentioned. For a long time, my party has supported reducing VAT on renovations. We believe not only that it is environmentally sustainable but that it would help boost the local construction sector and create employment and jobs, allowing people to adapt their homes at a time when moving home is often not an option because they are trapped in negative equity. That option should be considered. I urge the Treasury to examine its potential impact carefully.

The differential rates of VAT between hotels in Northern Ireland and in the south must also be considered. Currently, VAT for hotel services is 20% in the UK, but about 9% in the Republic. The need to attract investment and encourage home-grown business is paramount to growing our economy and bringing opportunities for employment, and tourism is a hugely important part of that strategy for growth.

In my constituency, 2012 is an important year for tourism, with the centenary of the Titanic and the opening of the Titanic Belfast visitor centre. That is just one example of the opportunities out there. Many other Members are equally enthusiastic about the opportunities in their constituencies, and some have already exploited the opportunity in this debate to promote them with no shame. I do not blame them at all, because I wish to do the same for my constituency.

However, hotels in Northern Ireland, particularly those near the border, face a competitive disadvantage that makes life difficult. Given Northern Ireland’s extremely positive reviews as a destination and the success of our golfers on the international stage, among other things, investment and support in the tourism sector would bring tangible benefits. I have referred to the fact that it is a priority skills area, which has created a step change in preparing people for employment. However, a VAT reduction would even up the playing field, resulting in long-term tax gains and supporting the strategy being developed by the Executive to grow our tourism industry.

The hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) mentioned the aggregates levy and some other areas where the land border and direct competition affect Northern Ireland business. Flexibility on such issues is needed. We cannot expect to be treated differently on all occasions, but some issues are significantly different in Northern Ireland and need to be considered in that context.

Several Members mentioned energy costs. It is important to recognise their impact, particularly on large energy-reliant businesses. They also have a general dampening effect on the economy, as energy bills eat a lot of profit that could be reinvested in other growth within business. However, there are opportunities to create new jobs. Although I agree with the hon. Member for East Antrim about energy costs, I know that he is perhaps less enthusiastic than I am about the green agenda. However, I do not think that he opposes creating new jobs in renewables, given Northern Ireland’s rich natural resources and strong research and manufacturing base. As the environment is one of the economy’s fastest growing sectors, embracing green energy technology will bring jobs to Northern Ireland, whether in building wind turbines or in harnessing local tidal and wave technology.

Research and development of renewable energy is a lucrative sector in Northern Ireland, and can become even more so. Opportunities for close working between the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, the Department for Employment in Northern Ireland, and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to try to develop that sector have real potential.

There are good news stories in the Northern Ireland economy. The hon. Member for East Antrim mentioned Bombardier.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

Does the hon. Lady agree that it is encouraging that the Northern Ireland Executive have set out in their programme for the Assembly’s next term their aim to encourage industry to achieve 20% of electricity consumption from renewable sources? That is ambitious, and to be commended.

[Naomi Long]

I certainly commend that. If one is ambitious, there is always the risk of failure, but if one is pessimistic and the bar is not set high enough, no one reaches out and there is often under-achievement. It is good that the Executive have set robust targets. It is good for the environment, and for the economy, and it is important for our local engineering base that we continue to do that. Harland and Wolff in my constituency invests quite a lot of time in renewables, and has reinvigorated a site that is providing sustainable employment for the future. That is a model that should go forward.

In my constituency, Bombardier’s work in creating employment during these challenging economic times has been impressive. The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) is still present, so I will name-check Wrightbus and its work with the Routemaster bus system, even here in London. It is novel to see a London bus being driven through County Antrim or County Down while it is being trialled, but it shows that Northern Ireland has something to contribute to the wider economy, and that is positive.

I want to close with an issue that is particularly close to my heart: the impact on the Northern Ireland economy of the sad reality that even so long after the Good Friday agreement and the St Andrew’s agreement, we still live in a deeply divided and segregated society. There has been huge progress and forward momentum in Northern Ireland in recent years through the political process, and I believe that we should celebrate and recognise that progress, because it holds great hope for the future.

Northern Ireland has been entirely transformed from the place where I grew up in the 1970s, but it would be wrong to gloss over or ignore the significant challenges that remain as a legacy of the past. The first Northern Ireland peace monitoring report was issued yesterday, and sets out the extent to which division and segregation still impact on society. It comments positively on the stability of the political institutions, the reduction in the general level of violence, and the emergence of what the report describes as

“a confident and neutral urban culture”,

typified by the number of people who identify their city centres as both safe and shared. However, sadly, it also highlighted the degree to which paramilitarism is still a threat, the lack of a strategy for reconciliation and dealing with the past and its legacy, and the degree to which Northern Ireland remains a divided society at every level.

Much of the responsibility for tackling that segregation is a devolved issue, but it is impossible to rebalance the Northern Ireland economy and to grow our private sector without looking at the degree to which segregation impacts on our economic competitiveness as a region. A divided society costs us in many ways. Divisions damage us at the human level, and limit people’s opportunities to mix with one another and to develop their social potential. They also hurt us socially; it is no accident that there is a high correlation between segregation and deprivation. We cannot ignore that if we are meaningfully to tackle social and economic deprivation. Divisions also hurt us environmentally. The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors argues that the divisions in Northern Ireland impact on our carbon footprint, which is one of the worst of any region of the UK, even those that also have significant rurality.

Divisions hurt us economically, hindering our labour market mobility, and acting as a deterrent to tourism and investment. They continue to limit somewhat our ability to attract and maintain the top talent. Finally and crucially, divisions cost us financially. My party, Alliance, estimated some time ago that the financial costs of division are around £1 billion per annum, and that figure was substantially validated by the Deloitte report in 2007, which suggested an upper estimate of £1.5 billion.

The costs of a divided society are apparent in a number of respects. There are direct costs for policing riots, civil disturbances and parades, as well as distortions to policing from the security threat, and costs for a wide range of agencies in repairing damaged buildings and facilities. Indirect costs include providing duplicate goods, facilities and services for separate sections of our community, either implicitly or explicitly, including a wide range of services such as schools, GPs surgeries, jobcentres, community centres, leisure centres and so on. Those costs are borne not just by the public sector, but by the private sector, and they act as a drag on development. Related to those indirect costs are hidden factors linked to divisions that impact upon the cost environment that Departments, agencies and businesses must respond to. There are opportunity costs of lost inward investment and tourism. The Northern Ireland economy has undoubtedly performed better in recent years, but it is still well below its potential capacity.

I believe strongly that there are moral and social imperatives for tackling sectarianism and segregation, but there are clearly also economic and financial imperatives. In the context of current financial pressures, the need for an overall strategy to look at government in Northern Ireland and to seek reform and efficiencies, not within existing divided structures, which could simply further balkanise the community, but in a way that increases sharing and co-operation, is a hugely important part of reinvigorating our economy, rebuilding our community, placing services on a more sustainable footing socially, environmentally and economically going forward, and making Northern Ireland a more attractive place in which to live, work and invest.

Those are primarily matters for the Executive, but the impact is significant in the context of this discussion. Any pressure and support from this place that can be brought to bear on the Executive in terms of delivering on that agenda will be hugely important. I believe that Northern Ireland has the potential to turn the economy round. I believe that the opportunity to rebalance it exists, and that now is the time to unlock that potential.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to take part in this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Scott. I agree with much that has been said. There is great consensus among Northern Ireland Members on all sides. I welcome the Select Committee’s excellent work on air passenger duty and corporation tax, which is the context in which this debate is taking place. The reports have been helpful to the debate, and I commend the Select Committee’s Chair and members on what has been achieved so far.

It is right to begin by putting on the record and endorsing what my hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) said about the importance of the link between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, because the matter must be put into the context of the enormous advantages that Northern Ireland gains from being part of the United Kingdom. That comment may not receive total consensus in Northern Ireland, but given what we have seen of the eurozone crisis and the impact of the global financial situation, being part of a much bigger economy—the United Kingdom economy—and out of the eurozone has been of enormous benefit to the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. I commend the Government on that and, indeed, a previous Government who decided to stay out of the eurozone—certain sections decided to stay out and the then Prime Minister had to go along with that. It is important to say that at the outset.

It is also important to put on the record the fact that many good things are happening in Northern Ireland’s economy. We have many advantages, and as a former Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment back in the early days of the restoration of devolution, I became well versed in repeating those advantages in meetings with potential investors and others. It is worth putting on the record the fact that Northern Ireland attracts the second highest amount of foreign direct investment of any region of the United Kingdom outside London and the south-east. That is a phenomenal achievement. Our population is 2.8% of that of the UK, but we receive 7% of the foreign direct investment that comes in to the United Kingdom. Invest Northern Ireland and those who work in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment deserve credit for their work.

We have a relatively young, well-educated work force and, as has been mentioned, good competitive costs. We have a low rate of attrition in work force turnover; workers are loyal to their employers, and by and large, the infrastructure is good. I was delighted to hear the recent announcement about more investment in our roads. Northern Ireland is on the peripheries of the United Kingdom, but when looking at its own peripheral areas—indeed, those of any country—there is no doubt that the biggest single boost that can be given to the economy is investment in infrastructure. We will get people, particularly young people, to stay in those areas only if there are good transport links and it is easy for them to move freely, work in those areas and get their goods to market elsewhere.

The roll-out of superfast broadband is one of the Government’s priorities, and the situation in Northern Ireland is one of the best in the United Kingdom, with extremely good coverage across the Province. As the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport said the other day in a response to my question on that issue, Northern Ireland is well ahead of other parts of the United Kingdom, which is a positive point.

Air links have been mentioned, and it is important to stress the significance of Northern Ireland’s dependence on the Heathrow link, given that we do not have alternatives such as rail. On the sale of BMI, the takeover bid has been launched, and I understand that International Airlines Group is the preferred bidder. A process is under way to look at that, and we need a meeting with the group’s chief executive and others to discuss the takeover. From both a tourism and business point of view, we must recognise Northern Ireland’s dependence on the maintenance of strong links between Belfast, Northern Ireland, and London, Heathrow, which is the still the main hub for long-haul business travel.

I do not mean to run down other air links involving low-cost airlines that fly to Gatwick, Stansted or Luton, because such links are important and serve different sectors of the market. However, if we want to ensure good links with business, we must maintain the connection with Heathrow. At the same time, we must develop direct long-haul routes out of Belfast, and I wish to put on the record our thanks to the Government and note the tremendous work that was done at local executive level in Northern Ireland and at Westminster—particularly in the Treasury—to deal with air passenger duty and maintain the link between Belfast and Newark, New Jersey.

The Northern Ireland Executive are committed to growing the private sector and supporting innovation, research and development, and creativity. They have set out plans to support £300 million of investment by business in R and D, to help 500 businesses to undertake R and D for the first time, and to support 200 projects through the creative industries innovation fund by 2015. That support has been set out in the programme for government and by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment.

On skills and employability, the plans are to increase to 70% the proportion of young people who leave school having achieved at least five GCSEs at grade A to C, or the equivalent, including in English and maths; to deliver 210,000 qualifications at levels 2, 3, 4 and above by 2015, through further or higher education and essential skills training; to increase skills in subjects that are important to the Northern Ireland economy, such as science, technology, engineering and mathematics, and implement actions within the STEM strategy; and to improve support for companies and increase the number of people who gain skills in management and leadership. The Northern Ireland Executive have made important commitments to place growing the economy at the centre of the programme for government.

On business growth, the plans are to promote £330 million of investment and 6,300 jobs in locally owned companies—with 50% paying salaries above the private sector median—and a further 6,500 new jobs in new start-up businesses; to support projects that improve competitiveness, encourage diversification of the rural economy, improve the quality of life in rural areas and protect and enhance the environment, including through the introduction of national parks; and to invest in social enterprise growth.

I want to put on the record that in Northern Ireland, the Executive and political parties are working together to promote growth in the private sector and the economy. We do not come to this debate simply to set out the needs and challenges of Northern Ireland, although there are many. The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) referred earlier to the division and segregation that continues to exist. Sadly, in many areas, such divisions will continue for the foreseeable future. We in Northern Ireland have come through difficult challenges and problems that cannot be dealt with or swept away in a matter of years or during the term of one Government, either in the Assembly or at Westminster. In many cases, those challenges will take generations to sort out.

The good thing, however, and the message that goes out from Northern Ireland is that although parties may be opposed on some of the details—we have seen a flavour of that today and with certain parties who do not take their seats in this place—and we are diametrically opposed on many issues, for the first time in generations, indeed decades, we are working together within the context of the locally elected Assembly to try to make life better for the people of Northern Ireland whom we represent.

Today, most of the debates that take place in the Assembly, or in this place, are on economic and social matters, rather than the issues that used to blight us—those of violence, terrorism and political uncertainty. Those issues have not entirely gone away, and we are conscious of the threat from dissident terrorists. The good work done by Invest Northern Ireland, Tourism Ireland and the Northern Ireland Tourist Board could be undermined by a bomb planted somewhere, or if some incident takes place and gets into the headlines. When people see such things on the news they believe that the entire area or Province is up in flames—far from it. That was not true even during the bad times and the troubles, but such incidents can do a lot to undermine confidence and deter visitors or investment.

We must bear down strongly on dissident terrorism, and I welcome the Government’s recognition that terrorism within Northern Ireland from dissident republicans should be viewed as a high priority in terms of the security threat. Although the focus, particularly during the run-up to the Olympics, is on the threat from extremist Islamists and others, there is still a threat within the United Kingdom from dissident republicans. However, that threat is being tackled, and the Treasury gave extra money—some £200 million—to the Northern Ireland Executive for that.

[Naomi Long]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the security response is a hugely important part of the response to paramilitarism? We also need an economic response to help people invest more in their communities and get better jobs, which they do not want to see destroyed. That would be another way to insulate communities against paramilitarism and protect young people from being drawn into paramilitary activity.

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. She represents the constituency of Belfast East, and I represent Belfast North, which has more of the so-called peace walls than any other constituency. She and I share many of the challenges that come with representing a Belfast constituency and inner city areas, and I totally agree with what she said.

I was talking about tourism and the impact that violence on our TV screens has on attracting visitors. I believe, however, that the tourism industry has great potential to help grow the private sector. When the troubles—the violence—started in the late 1960s, the number of visitors coming to Northern Ireland, which had been growing very much during the ’60s, dropped off massively overnight and stayed at that very low base for 30 to 40 years. There is massive potential to grow the numbers back to what they were previously. We are not even back to that point yet.

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Lady has a point, but I think that it is a matter of doing both. We must have the product. That is why the number of signature projects that have been and are being developed in Northern Ireland is extremely important. Then, as everyone knows, we have to get out there and sell the product. We need a combination of both.

I congratulate the Executive on their aim to have, by the end of December 2013, 3.6 million visitors coming to Northern Ireland, with a revenue of £625 million. That will provide a major boost to employment. We are talking about investment in product. The Titanic signature project, which has been referred to and which opens on 31 March, is a very significant addition to the tourism product in Northern Ireland.

I am reflecting on the first meeting of the Northern Ireland Executive in 2007, after devolution was restored. The first item of major expenditure brought to the table was a proposal that I brought to invest and commit public funds, alongside private investment and European funds, to the Titanic signature project. I am delighted that that has come to fruition. Along with some other projects, it was derided, criticised and picked over at the time, but everyone now agrees that it will probably be the biggest tourist draw on the island of Ireland, apart from the natural attractions, such as the Giant’s Causeway. It will be a massive addition to the tourism product. That was a far-reaching and visionary decision of the Northern Ireland Executive, taken at one of their first meetings in 2007.

[Naomi Long]

The right hon. Gentleman has been generous about taking interventions. Does he agree that, as is so often the case, there is still negativity, even about such important and positive projects, and that part of what we need to do is not just to market these things internationally to potential visitors, but to engage in some selling of confidence to local people that we can attract the tourist numbers required to sustain them? We need to build self-belief again in the people of Northern Ireland. We need to build the belief in them that it is a good place—a place worth visiting—so that they become ambassadors for the product that we have.

[Mr Dodds]

I agree. My hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim referred earlier to cynicism. I do not fault him for that. It is right to be cynical at times, especially when dealing with statistics, facts and figures coming from the Government and so on. It is right to interrogate people about that, but over the years there has been a tendency for cynicism to be almost the natural reaction to anything happening in Northern Ireland. To be frank, sometimes our local media do not help. There is a sense in which everything that happens is to be criticised and picked over, particularly in Northern Ireland. There is always someone there to do that.

With regard to the Titanic signature project, a report came out recently from the audit people saying, “We’re not quite sure how this will all work out. We’re not too sure, because we don’t know how many visitors are going to come.” Well, we could have told them that without doing all that work. Of course there are issues to be looked at, but we must take some risks in trying to develop the private sector. That is the key point. Sometimes people say, “Oh, you’ve wasted this money and wasted that money. You’ve invested too much money in this and put too much money into that.” Well, if we are to develop the private sector, we must encourage private investment, but sometimes we have to prime the pump. That will require some public investment, and it sometimes does not work out in exactly the way that we wish. That is part of the business of creating growth.

I am conscious that other hon. Members wish to speak. I will not take up too much more time, but I want to support the call, in the run-up to the Budget, for the Government here to help. I believe that there is a strong case, as the hon. Member for Belfast East said, for a VAT cut in relation to renovations, because the construction industry is a major employer in Northern Ireland. Proportionately, it is much more important there than it is elsewhere in the United Kingdom. In 2007, 46,800 people were employed in our construction sector. By September 2011, the number was down to 32,800.

Again, the Northern Ireland Executive have done their bit. The amount of capital investment that is going in now—that has been brought forward and speeded up—is significant. The recent announcement by the Minister of Finance and Personnel—my hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim—of an extra £600 million was significant. However, something such as a cut to the VAT rate on renovations would help us in Northern Ireland.

Also relevant are the effects of high energy prices and the high price of fuel and diesel in Northern Ireland on the economy locally. That is having a big impact on the haulage industry—on the private sector, never mind household budgets. The issue has been debated on a number of occasions recently and has also been raised at Prime Minister’s Question Time. The fact is that people and businesses in Northern Ireland are paying a higher price for petrol and diesel than people in any other region of the European Union. If we are talking about rebalancing the economy and growing the private sector in Northern Ireland, that must be examined. Something must be done about it. When we add to it the high cost of car insurance, which is well above what people in the rest of the United Kingdom pay, and the high cost of energy generally, we have a case for saying that if we are to rebalance the economy, those things need to be addressed.

The issue of the banks and access to finance has been raised. I will not go into more detail on that, but I will draw the attention of the House to a couple of cases in my constituency. Recently, a couple of business men have come to me in despair. One of the businesses has now gone out of business completely—it had to fold. The other is struggling on. In both cases, the bank, having agreed a lending regime with them—this was the Ulster bank, part of RBS—came to them and said, “Well, we have this arrangement in place. You’re servicing your debt. That’s all very well, but we now need you to reduce overall the amount of your overdraft by x hundred thousand pounds.” They were not massive figures in the scheme of things, but they were massive to those businesses. The bank said, “We now need you to reduce your overdraft by x hundred thousand pounds. We want that by the end of two months. If you don’t do it, we’re going to say, ‘That’s it. We’re not going to lend to you any more.’” Those business men came to me in despair—“How are we to get this money?” They gathered money from friends and relatives and from savings and selling things off. Then the bank came back to them and said, “Well, you’ve been able to do that. You can go a bit further. We’re now asking for an extra amount of money.”

As I said, a company in my constituency, right on one of the peace lines, in a very highly deprived area, employing some 25 people, was out of business as of last month. The guy who owned that business is now working as a sales rep for another company elsewhere. The banks have a very heavy responsibility in this, and it is all done to reduce their outlay. It is all driven at headquarters level. People meet the banks and they say, “We’re sorry. There’s nothing we can do. This is the policy. We’re told that we have to do it.” It is driving some businesses that are totally viable—they could trade away, work away and provide employment—out of business. That is a deplorable situation.

The Government have talked about the importance of rebalancing the economy. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has talked about that a lot. He has talked about the creation of an enterprise zone in Northern Ireland. I am delighted to see here the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), and his deputy, the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound). I note that neither the Secretary of State nor the Minister of State is here. I regret that, because the Secretary of State has talked a lot about—he has made it his priority—the creation of an enterprise zone for Northern Ireland. When we have queried what the creation of an enterprise zone actually means, it has appeared to mean Northern Ireland being open for business. It does not appear to amount to anything definite or concrete, other than his reliance on a cut in corporation tax.

In that context, let me raise the importance of regional aid in addressing the special circumstances in Northern Ireland. Currently, Northern Ireland has 100% assisted area status, but the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills is intent on removing that, while the Treasury is claiming that it is doing all that it can to rebalance the economy. BIS says that there is no longer an economic rationale to support Northern Ireland retaining its 100% assisted area status, but that fails to recognise the ongoing and unique situation in Northern Ireland, which has been outlined in great detail here today and is not experienced in any other region of the United Kingdom. It is particularly concerning that moves are being taken to remove our 100% assisted area status at a time when a consultation on rebalancing the economy is under way. It is inconceivable that while one part of the UK Government are seeking to rebalance the Northern Ireland economy, or grow our private sector, another part is taking steps that will have a significant detrimental effect on our ability to encourage private sector growth.

The potential loss of Northern Ireland’s 100% assisted area status impacts on our ability to progress the UK Government’s enterprise zone policy, particularly the capital allowance element, which is based on zones being within assisted areas for the five years from 2012. There are concerns, too, about proposals coming from the European Commission regarding assistance and regional aid being paid to large companies that are located in areas such as Northern Ireland. Any steps to remove regional aid for large companies would have a severe detrimental impact on Northern Ireland’s ability to support business competitiveness and to attract foreign direct investment. The Enterprise Minister in Northern Ireland is concerned about this matter and has been in regular contact with BIS, but if we are talking about rebalancing the economy and growing the private sector, all sections of the Government must do their bit. The Northern Ireland Assembly is, I believe, putting private sector growth at the heart of the programme for government. We will see in the forthcoming Budget what proposals come forward. Above all, though, BIS must do what it can to help.

I urge the Minister to work with his colleagues in BIS and the Northern Ireland Assembly to address the issues that have been outlined today, so that together we can grow the economy and make life better for all our people in Northern Ireland.

Voting by Prisoners

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Naomi Long

Thursday 10th February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

I apologise for the fact that immediately after my contribution I will have to leave the Chamber owing to circumstances beyond my control.

Before I begin, I am sure that hon. Members will wish to join me in expressing their condolences to the families of those who today lost their lives in a plane crash on a flight from my constituency in East Belfast to Cork. I know that hon. Members may have heard the news and will want to extend their condolences to the families affected and their best wishes to those who have survived that crash.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

I join the hon. Lady in those expressions of sympathy. It was a matter that I raised at business questions this morning, and Members from Northern Ireland sympathise with her and her constituents at this time. It has been a grievous loss which is felt deeply across the Province.

[Naomi Long]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his words of condolence, and I am sure that the people involved will appreciate them very much.

In the short time available, I want to touch briefly on two issues, namely the effect of the blanket ban and the Government’s preferred option for change, which has been outlined. I share many of the concerns expressed about the idea of extending the right to vote to prisoners, which, I concede, is counter-intuitive. This debate has to be considered and balanced if it is to meet the requirements of the European Court of Human Rights, and, most importantly, to reach a just and reasonable position on the matter. Essentially we need to consider the rationale for removing the right to vote in a blanket ban and what purpose that serves. While gut instinct may tell us one thing, the rationale for it does not stand up to scrutiny.

Prison serves three purposes, the first and most important of which is to protect the public. Therefore, I agree with the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) that it follows that those in prison ought to be those who have committed serious offences, although that is not always the case. It is also important that it is about punishment for the offence that has been committed. However, Members who have spoken in favour of retaining a blanket ban have themselves questioned whether it is effective, either as a punishment, given that few prisoners actually want to exercise the right to vote, or as a deterrent for future criminals.

The third aspect of prison is to rehabilitate offenders so that they can effectively rejoin society at the end of their prison sentence and make a positive contribution. There is an argument that by re-engaging prisoners in civic responsibility in the latter parts of their sentences in particular, it is possible to establish more positive behaviours, which may then follow them into wider society on their release. Voting in certain circumstances may play a role in that. We have international treaty obligations, which have been outlined in some detail.

I would prefer any changes to UK law that introduce limited voting rights for prisoners to be based on length of sentence rather than left to the discretion of the individual judges and the courts. The Government proposal to allow voting for sentences of four years or less seems an overly generous response and not necessarily more proportionate and considered than a blanket ban. A preferable option, bearing in mind the rehabilitation argument, may be to limit the right of voting to prisoners serving sentences of one year or less, and to reintroduce the right to vote in the final year of a longer sentence as part of a wider programme of reintegration and rehabilitation. That may be seen as a more considered and more positive response.

Prisoner voting is a reserved matter. However, justice is devolved in Northern Ireland, so decisions taken in Westminster will have an impact on the devolved Administration, who will be responsible for implementing it directly. It is therefore critical that the Government consult fully with the devolved Administrations about their approach, and listen to their concerns and their input as they take it forward.

It is important that we have had the opportunity to discuss the subject, and I hope that it will not lead simply to the removal of the blanket ban with nothing more considered being put in its place.

Higher Education Fees

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Naomi Long

Thursday 9th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to participate in the debate, which will have profound implications for the devolved Administration in Northern Ireland and for my constituents. I hope to come to that point later. However, given the time constraints, my remarks will not be as comprehensive as I would wish. I shall consider briefly just three aspects of the proposals with which I take issue: the first is the principle underpinning the changes; the second is the effect on social mobility; and the third is the impact on Northern Ireland’s students and universities.

First, I shall discuss the principle underpinning the introduction of tuition fees. The increase in fees and the reduction in the grant to universities for teaching is based on the premise that students are the main beneficiaries of a university education and that they should therefore make a specific contribution to the cost. I take issue with that. I may be unusual in doing so, although I am glad to see that some Liberal Democrat and Conservative Members have indicated that they also take issue with it.

One of the principal benefits to a graduate from their education is higher earnings. However, that is already accounted for in a progressive manner through general taxation. Over their lifetime, graduates pay more than 40% more tax than a non-graduate. The higher earnings of a graduate are therefore accounted for through taxation. However, although graduates benefit from studying, society also benefits from their degree. For those hon. Members who have asked how, I simply say that every time someone goes to their pharmacist, dentist, doctor, sends their child to school or university, drives over a bridge or on a road, or turns off a tap in their home, they are benefiting directly from someone else’s university education. Employers benefit from increased competitiveness. In Northern Ireland, our international competitiveness and ability to attract direct foreign investment and develop spin-out economic activity linked to research and development are dependent on having well-educated graduates in our population. That benefit is extended to everyone.

Like the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland), I was opposed to the introduction of tuition fees and top-up fees. I am also opposed to these proposals, which will further shift the responsibility for university funding on to individual students and away from wider society. A number of hon. Members have referred to the introduction of tuition fees as opening a Pandora’s box. I think the introduction of tuition fees is akin to a conversation between a man and a woman in which the man says, “Would you sleep with me for £1 million?” The woman then says, “Yes,” and the man says, “Now we’ve established the principle, let’s negotiate the price.” What we are doing today is negotiating the price, not the principle. Labour Members should take that into account in what they have to say.

When Labour established the principle of tuition fees and top-up fees, market forces were introduced into the university system. Yesterday, the Deputy Prime Minister said that he would like tuition fees to be scrapped, but that he lives in an imperfect world. I share his aspiration. I am opposed to the measures, not least because by cutting the teaching grant and moving reliance on to individual contributions, the chance for scrapping fees moves from being an aspiration to a pipe dream.

Social mobility is hugely important and my views have been influenced heavily by my personal experience. Neither of my parents had the opportunity to go to university and both went out to work when they were 14. Indeed, my father did so to fund the education of his younger brother. That situation may become more common in the future, as tuition fees rise. For me, the opportunity to attend university was life changing. I had the benefit of a maintenance grant and did not have to pay fees. That financial support was critical to me. My father died when I was 11 and my mum was on a state pension by the time I made it to university. Without making the sacrifice of what was, effectively, six years of deferred earning, when I could not contribute to the household and was reliant on my mum, I would not have been able to get my education. It was the right decision for me, but it is one I fear that other students might not have the opportunity to take.

People from lower-income backgrounds tend to be more debt adverse, and that is deeply engrained in their psyche. Full cognisance has not been given to that in developing the proposals. I want other young people to have the opportunities that I enjoyed. I therefore cannot support the proposals.

As I said last night, the decision taken in this House today will have a profound effect on students from Northern Ireland and on the devolved Administration. An independent review is taking place under the auspices of the Department for Employment and Learning in the Northern Ireland Assembly. However, the report made it clear in its initial phase that it would be very difficult for us significantly to vary from the situation in England.

It was also made clear in the Grand Committee that the Barnett consequentials of a decision that has not yet been taken have already been factored into the budget. I have no doubt that the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) will have more to say about that in due course.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

I agree almost entirely with the hon. Lady’s comments. Does she now regret that during the election campaign she received the wholehearted endorsement of the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg) and that she was so effusive in her support for the Lib Dems?

[Naomi Long]

No, I do not regret receiving the right hon. Gentleman’s support during the election campaign. I am thankful to be here as an Alliance party Member representing its policies and not as a Liberal Democrat Member. I think that the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) is well aware of that.

In Northern Ireland, this will be a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly. However, if a balance cannot be found between protecting Northern Ireland students who may be deterred from attending university, and underfunding our participation rates, there are serious implications for rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy, which the Government have said is a priority for them. It is hugely important that our universities in Northern Ireland are considered powerfully in this. Northern Ireland universities have some of the best participation rates among lower socio-economic groups. One of those is a Russell group university—Queen’s university Belfast. Lessons could be learned from the arrangements that it has put in place to widen participation to support students into education. We should not simply dismiss this as a matter that concerns only English students without giving full consideration to students from Northern Ireland. It is hugely important that the situation in Northern Ireland is fully considered. Although there are progressive measures regarding the repayment of these fees, I cannot, on balance and in the absence of a full package, give my support to what has been put before us.

Northern Ireland

Debate between Lord Dodds of Duncairn and Naomi Long

Wednesday 17th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Dodds]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to that. The previous Government proposed reducing the number of councils to seven. I am the first to support a reduction in governance and the number of elected officials and all the rest of it, but a reduction to seven councils would have meant that Northern Ireland councils would be bigger than any other region of Europe. I am sure that the former Minister, the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins), will go into considerable detail on that in his speech.

The lack or inadequacy of consultation on the primary legislation with parties in the Assembly and the Executive has been mentioned. I do not want to go over that, but consultation on Assembly and local elections with the chief electoral officer of Northern Ireland is mentioned in the orders and the explanatory memorandum. I recently met the new chief electoral officer. He is a very impressive officer and I think he will do an excellent job, but it is clear that he sought, during consultations on both the primary legislation and the secondary legislation that we are debating, some changes to the way in which elections are carried out that were not proposed by the Northern Ireland Office.

I am thinking in particular about the removal of polling agents from Northern Ireland polling stations. The Minister is nodding his head, so perhaps he has held discussions on polling agents. This is an important matter. Commendably, we have a sophisticated and elaborate system to tackle identity fraud and the abuse of the electoral system. As has been said, people must now produce certain types of photographic identification or sign postal votes, and their signatures are carefully examined. Postal and proxy vote abuse has been considerably reduced from the large-scale abuse that took place in previous elections. Our system is a model for dealing with postal votes for the rest of the UK. If the rest of the UK wants to cut out the abuse of postal voting, people should look at the administration and regime in Northern Ireland. Clearly, our system is now without any kind of abuse at all.

However, why do we still need polling agents—representatives of political parties—sitting in polling stations in Northern Ireland? The NIO, which is still responsible for elections, should address that, because it is clear that one or two parties—I am thinking of one in particular—clearly abuse that for purposes not in keeping with the legislation. Information is taken out of polling stations, so that voters who have not voted can be identified and then, of course, visited. They will be asked, “Why have you not voted?” and told to get out to vote. In certain parts of the Province and in certain circumstances, people will feel intimidated by that, so polling agents are being used for nefarious purposes. I urge the NIO to take that seriously when it next gets a legislative opportunity.

[Naomi Long]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that one difficulty is that when people are approached in those circumstances and they realise that the information has been garnered at the polling station, they fear that the fact of how they have voted is also available? People are often quite intimated by the notion that the ballot is less than fully secret.

[Mr Dodds]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. We might sit in the comfort of this Chamber and know that the ballot is secret and that the information cannot get out, but for a lot of people, exactly the scenario that she has painted is what they believe to be the case. They believe that because information has been gathered on whether they have voted thus far, people will be able to find out how they have voted, and the people who call at their doors make no effort to disabuse them of that notion either. This is an important matter. Nowadays there is no reason at all for that provision to remain, if we really are going to ensure that we have fair and clean elections in Northern Ireland. As has been mentioned on a number of occasions, the ecology of the electoral system is different—and it is different: people are more easily intimidated by the way certain parties operate—so removing that provision would be a step towards improving the democratic process and making people less concerned about exercising their franchise.

The management of elections by the chief electoral officer and the issue of resources, which is an important point, have already been mentioned. In my discussions with the chief electoral officer, the point that he laid most emphasis on was resources. The matter of ballot boxes has also been raised, which is another issue that I know has been discussed. All sorts of imaginative suggestions have been canvassed, and I hope that it will be possible to find a sensible solution that minimises costs.

There is also the issue of polling stations. The Minister referred to the fact that polling stations in Northern Ireland were sometimes smaller than they are elsewhere. Again, I would urge him in his discussions with the Electoral Office for Northern Ireland to do what I have done, which is to urge the authorities to be a bit more imaginative when it comes to the buildings and premises that they use as polling stations. People are too fixated on the traditional buildings—“We’ve always used this building and we can’t depart from tradition”—whereas new premises have sprung up, and many people are used to doing things differently. Sometimes the electoral officers are far too hidebound by the past in managing this issue, so I would again urge the Minister in his discussions respectfully to ask the chief electoral officer to be much more flexible. There is a consultation under way—certainly in my constituency, and I am sure in those of other hon. Members—that is closing in December on the very issue of polling stations, so this is an opportune moment for the matter to be pursued.

Finally, so as to leave plenty of time for others who wish to contribute to this debate, let me say something about enforcement. The local elections order is fairly substantial, as the Minister said, as is the Assembly order. When I read through the detail of all the rules, what struck me was this: what happens when those rules, particularly those applying to the conduct of the election by candidates and parties, are breached? In my experience, it seems that we can prescribe all sorts of rules, from rules on the colour of ballot papers to rules on whether the X or the “1” should be marked in black pen or in pencil—we debated that in the primary legislation—or what would constitute a clear preference, all of which are matters of great detail. Indeed, the forms are set out in incredible detail in the legislation, so the issue is extremely important. Yet I have found that when matters are drawn to the attention of the authorities—the chief electoral officer and then the people responsible for prosecuting such matters—very little is ever done about breaches of the rules.

I want to refer to a matter that I raised during the debate on the primary legislation on the parliamentary voting system. One party in Northern Ireland—Sinn Fein—seems to be adept at producing detailed replicas of polling cards and other official material. On one side they appear to be authentic, but the other side has party political propaganda, some of it of a vicious nature, designed to persuade people that not only is Sinn Fein recommending voting a certain way, but that the electoral authorities are also doing so.

There were examples of that practice during the last Westminster election. One was in the constituency of the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), and there was at least one in my constituency. There were also other illegal practices. The matter was drawn to the attention of the then chief electoral officer, who took the matter seriously, and it has been referred on to the authorities to consider what action should be taken. We know that there are serious consequences, and we will watch carefully, as will the electorate and the people of Northern Ireland, as well as the media, to see what happens about a clear and flagrant breach of electoral law.

I do not expect the Minister to respond in any shape or form on the specifics of a case, but I raise the matter because it concerns me that from time to time in Northern Ireland elections, whether local, Assembly or Westminster elections, all sorts of illegal practices go on. Vast amounts of money are spent, the election returns show that only a small amount was spent. Although everyone knows that tens of thousands of pounds have been spent but never declared. Such matters should be taken seriously.

It is all very well to pass legislation, regulations and rules. We debate them at length, and scrutinise them properly, but we must ensure that there is effective and proper enforcement, otherwise people will take the signal that at the next election they can push the boundaries even further and get away with far worse. That is insidious, and it needs to be stamped on. I am happy to lend my support and that of my right hon. and hon. Friends to the orders.

--- Later in debate ---

[Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)]

I support the orders. I would like briefly to raise a number of issues, some of which have already been touched on by other Members.

First, I express my disappointment that greater progress has not been made on the review of public administration in Northern Ireland, particularly as the local government elections were postponed to facilitate that process. It has become something of a political soap opera—not quite as long running as “Coronation Street” and certainly not as entertaining. It has not reached a satisfactory conclusion as yet, and there seems to be little prospect that it will—despite the fact that it has cost a lot of money. Most people would have liked to have seen this issue brought to a more satisfactory conclusion.

Given that the last local government elections were held almost six years ago there is a democratic deficit, so it is important to give people the opportunity to refresh their mandate in local government. It is disappointing that this is being done in the absence of reform.

I noted what the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) said about the possibility of bringing the elections forward, but I concur with the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) as I do not believe that further tampering with the electoral cycle is the best way of dealing with the issue. I agree that there is an urgency about taking the review of public administration forward in Northern Ireland. However, local government has demonstrated in the past its ability to co-operate even under its current structures—through arc21, for example, which deals with a number of councils’ waste. At the very least, we should expect enhanced co-operation so that some savings can be made without having to tamper with the cycle further.

I seek the Minister’s reassurance about photographic identification. In May, Westminster elections and council by-elections were held on the same day in my constituency. People turned up to vote, only to find that their photographic ID was admissible for one election but not for the other. This caused extreme distress, particularly for older people, who were relying on transport passes to get the correct photographic ID. They were not able to vote in both elections, as they had expected. I hope that the arrangements involving identification documents can be simplified so that when people turn up at polling stations, they are fully confident that they will be able to cast their votes.

I hope that the Minister will reflect on another issue, although I do not expect a full answer from him this evening. Given that the qualification to vote is established when the electoral register is compiled, which means that people who are on the register and duly marked down for an election have the right to vote in it, the purpose of ID is simply to establish exactly who they are. However, there remains a restriction for foreign nationals who have a right to vote in elections, but no right to use their passports from their home nations as a means of identification. They experience significant difficulties when they try to vote in elections in which they are entitled to vote, but cannot obtain valid identification documents. Given that the purpose of the documents is simply to prove that individuals are the individuals listed in the register, I think that the matter should be dealt with to ensure full participation in the community by those who wish to vote.

Along with other Members, I have already raised concerns about the holding of three elections on the same day next May. The Minister made quite a brave statement when he said that his neck would be on the line if the logistical issues were not handled well. It remains to be seen whether people will want to hold him to that commitment, but I have to say that this is not just about the logistical issues, although they are hugely important. Of course we want the Electoral Commission to be properly resourced to ensure that the elections can be discharged fairly, but we should also consider the democratic deficit that may result from the holding of elections at the same time.

There is always a risk that the Assembly elections and the issues connected with them—I think that it usually happens this way round—will obscure important debates about local governance in relation to local government elections. We need to consider how much media coverage is given to the local government debate, which has a direct impact on people’s lives but tends to be less glamorous—for want of a better word—than the issues dealt with in the Assembly. However, there is a chance that both issues could be overshadowed by the national campaign on the referendum. In Northern Ireland particularly, for obvious reasons, people might focus on the Assembly election, given its importance, rather than on the impact of electoral reform and local government.

A number of Members have said that we could surely cope with these complex elections, and it is true that ours is a very sophisticated electorate. There was a period during which we had an election, if not two, almost every year. People have become accustomed to voting and to how to cast their votes. The electorate are sophisticated in terms of being able to manage the electoral process, and, as others have pointed out, we have had two elections on the same day before. Nevertheless, the additional complication caused by a third election on a very different issue causes me some concern.

I believe that the combination of the local government and Assembly elections, while not ideal, may be manageable. I seek the Minister’s reassurance that he will do all in his power to ensure that people are fully informed about the issues on which they are voting and the consequences of their votes, particularly with respect to the referendum and the two elections that will take place on the same day, and to ensure that the Electoral Commission is properly funded in order to be able to notify people.

[Mr Dodds]

The Electoral Office for Northern Ireland, or perhaps the Electoral Commission, has a responsibility to urge people to vote much earlier in the day. We have already experienced problems with queuing, and given that there will be separate ballot boxes, the process will take much longer on this occasion. It is therefore vital for a press and media campaign to be organised officially at an early stage. People must be told, “Do not do what you normally do and wait until the last minute, or after teatime; get out and vote earlier.” That would be a very profitable campaign on the part of the commission.

[Naomi Long]

I entirely agree. I think it hugely important for people to be encouraged to cast their votes at the earliest opportunity. When people have turned up with the wrong documentation, it has been useful for them to be able to revisit the polling station if necessary. However, it would be beneficial generally if we could prevent what tends to be a post-teatime rush, with queues forming late in the day. I hope that that can be impressed on the Electoral Commission, and that the commission can be properly resourced so that its campaign is foremost in people’s minds. People have become accustomed to voting at times of the day that are convenient for them. On this occasion, there will be three different elections with three different ballot papers, and it is important that people recognise how much time will be consumed in filling them in.

I seek the Minister’s reassurance particularly in respect of photo-ID and ensuring that people are properly informed about the nature of the elections taking place on the day.