Movement of Goods (Northern Ireland to Great Britain) (Animals, Feed and Food, Plant Health etc.) (Transitory Provision and Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2024

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Tuesday 10th December 2024 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn]

At end insert “but that this House regrets that the draft Regulations implement the Northern Ireland Protocol and Windsor Framework which prevent Northern Ireland being a full part of the United Kingdom’s internal market, and undermine the democratic and constitutional rights of the people of Northern Ireland.”

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for moving the Motion, for the discussions that we have had and for her engagement with noble Lords and noble Baronesses from Northern Ireland on the various issues that affect us under the Windsor Framework protocol. I move my regret amendment because the regulations implement the Northern Ireland protocol, which has been renamed the Windsor Framework but in European law is still called the Northern Ireland protocol, and which prevents Northern Ireland from being a full part of the United Kingdom’s internal market for a large number of goods and agrifood products, as well as undermining the democratic and constitutional rights of all the people of Northern Ireland.

We had a debate in recent weeks on another statutory instrument. I am grateful that we have the opportunity to debate yet another statutory instrument flowing from the withdrawal Act and the implementation of the Windsor Framework because it is important that, in this Chamber and the other place, we have the opportunity to scrutinise and examine laws that are made by way of subsidiary legislation but carry out the wishes of a foreign political entity as far as Northern Ireland is concerned. It is therefore all the more important that we should be aware of what is happening.

While they may be described as technical in nature, the substance and import of these regulations have significant political and constitutional consequences. Together with the many other statutory instruments and subordinate legislation under the protocol/ Windsor Framework already passed and to be passed by this House and the other place, these constitute a substantial body of law imposing EU jurisdiction over part of the UK.

The Minister mentioned that the regulations are temporary in nature. The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee included in its eighth report a number of paragraphs on the regulations. In its submission to that committee, the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said that the long-term approach to sanitary and phytosanitary controls, including checks on EU and rest-of-world goods entering Great Britain from the island of Ireland, as it put it, is yet to be announced. I would be grateful if the Minister could tell your Lordships when we can expect the long-term approach to be implemented, whether this House will be consulted about those long-term arrangements and indeed what arrangements are in place to consult Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Executive on those measures. In the meantime, these are the regulations that we have in front of us.

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[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

I completely get the point that the noble Baroness is making. Our international commitments, and the trade and co-operation agreement, require us to treat EU goods equally, regardless of the entry point. As she is aware, there is a lot of legislation already in place. There are issues within the Windsor Framework. There are matters that we need to discuss with the EU as we go forward with the EU reset that has been discussed. These more complex issues are where we need to dig into the detail in our meetings outside of the legislation, and the whole point of me wanting to meet noble Lords is so we can do that. We can dig into those details and I can better understand the concerns, and we can look at whether there are things that we can do to manage this better. I hope the noble Baroness is happy that I am not trying to dodge it; I just need to understand it better, so that we can discuss it properly.

The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, asked about electronic systems for paperwork. We have been looking at this; it is quite complicated, but we are exploring whether it might be possible, to answer that specific question.

The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, and my noble friend Lady Ritchie asked about the potential SPS and veterinary agreements with the EU. I thank my noble friend Lady Ritchie for her work as part of the veterinary medicines working group. This is a critical part of taking that work forward, and a way that we are working in collaboration and consultation to ensure that we get the best deal we can. It is quite difficult because it is early stages, and we want to get this right, so I cannot say anything formally at present. I assure noble Lords that a lot of work is going on behind the scenes on looking to get the best outcomes that we can for both SPS and veterinary agreements.

I conclude by summarising what we consider to be the benefits of these regulations. They strengthen Great Britain’s biosecurity by delivering alignment in the treatment of European Union and rest-of-world goods entering Great Britain from the island of Ireland. We believe it is right that goods from the European Union and the rest of the world are treated differently from goods moving within the UK’s internal market. Additionally, the consequential amendments to the qualifying Northern Ireland goods definition in existing legislation ensures that the updated definition, which focuses the benefits of unfettered access more squarely on Northern Ireland traders, applies to the direct and indirect movement of these goods into Great Britain. I am sure noble Lords will be aware that there will be further statutory instruments to come on very similar areas—the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, assured us that this will be the case.

I am aware that the noble Lord, Lords Dodds, may well be minded to divide the House on these regulations. As I mentioned at the start of my response, I have invited noble Lords from Northern Ireland to come, in January, to another meeting, as a follow-up to our previous one, and I very much hope that they will accept. I reassure noble Lords, who clearly have very real concerns about statutory instruments regarding the Windsor Framework and the implementation of the new BTOM, that I am listening. I want to have the opportunity to consider wider concerns in more depth, so that I can properly understand them and see if there are ways that we can move forward together on this. I do not pretend to have all the answers or a magic wand to resolve what is, in many areas, a pretty impossible position, but I am genuine in wanting to work with noble Lords on this. With that having been said, I once again thank everyone for their contributions. I commend the regulations to the House.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response to the points raised by a number of noble Lords this evening. I thank her also not just for the substance of what she said but for the tone in which she has approached these issues this evening and on other occasions, as well as for her willingness and dedication to work with us on some of the issues that affect so many people who we are speaking for in this House—both unionist and nationalist, because the Ulster Farmers Union, which she mentioned visiting, is made up of many people of different backgrounds and they all have common concerns.

When we speak about wanting to give a voice, a vote and a say in making laws and legislation for Northern Ireland, we want those rights to be for nationalists, unionists, and those who have no party at all. That is why it is staggering that tonight in the Northern Ireland Assembly there will be members of parties—the SDLP, Sinn Féin and Alliance—who will vote to deny themselves the right to make, develop and amend laws over 300 areas affecting vast swathes of our economy, including one of our most important industries, the agrifood industry, which is massive in Northern Ireland. They will vote to hand over the powers to develop those laws to a foreign political entity, which may on some occasions vote and decide laws beneficially but may on other occasions decide to vote and make laws in their own interests, which is perfectly understandable. Why would you want to hand that away? This is not a unionist argument; it is an argument for Northern Ireland and for the Assembly.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, talked about working together. That is why we in the DUP voted to go into the Executive with Sinn Féin, despite its support for murder and mayhem, targeting many of us in political life and the security forces. We want to move Northern Ireland forward, but you cannot move it forward on the basis of a majority vote that excludes every single unionist. The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, referred to the fact that there are different views. Well, there is a nationalist view, supported by the Alliance Party, and there is a unionist view. That is why we have a cross-community voting mechanism in the Assembly. There has not been a majority vote on any matter of substance affecting Northern Ireland for 50 years—yet, tonight, there is. That is not acceptable in the long term. It will not endure.

Windsor Framework (Non-Commercial Movement of Pet Animals) Regulations 2024

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Wednesday 27th November 2024 Lords Chamber

Mutual enforcement, the basic part of that Bill, is the way forward to get rid of these ridiculous rules that no other country in the world would have accepted whereby a foreign institution is allowed to make rules without any say by the Northern Ireland people. If anything shows all this to be so ridiculous and unnecessary, it is this statutory instrument. I have great respect for the Minister, and I know how much she understands this whole area, but I hope that she will respond in a very different way from the Minister in the other place, who did not answer a single question or clarify a single thing of what those Members opposing it asked. I hope that the noble Baroness will do that, and that other noble Lords listening tonight will realise that sometimes soft words and pushing something through come back to bite us in the end. I beg to move my amendment.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate. We are having this debate in your Lordships’ Chamber because the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, has put down a regret amendment. It is important that these matters are debated. We must ensure that the negative instruments that will be coming forward are fully debated. Every one of the statutory instruments that come forward under the Windsor framework must be properly debated, because these laws are being brought forward to implement what a foreign jurisdiction has decided should be the law of the United Kingdom. In the 21st century, we should not accept colonial rule. We abolished it elsewhere. We believe it should not be tolerated for one second. People should have the democratic right to decide their laws for themselves, in their interests. Yet there are many people in this Chamber and the other Chamber who rail against Henry VIII clauses and so on but seem quite happy to take legislation from the European Union made by the European Commission in its interests, and not in the interests of the United Kingdom, without any consultation from any MP or mere MLA in the Northern Ireland Assembly. We are expected at times just to nod it through.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, has gone through in detail the implications of this statutory instrument. I detect some people in the Chamber almost smiling and sort of thinking: “This is all very detailed. We’re talking about dogs and cats. This is not worthy of this Chamber. What’s this all about?” Quite frankly, I believe that these matters need to be properly scrutinised. These things matter to the owners of pets, and it should matter to all citizens who believe in democracy that these laws should be made by us.

We have before us the Windsor Framework (Non-Commercial Movement of Pet Animals) Regulations. The ridiculous part about this debate is that we are having to debate European laws regulating the movement of pet animals owned by British citizens between one part of the United Kingdom and another. That is an outrage. People should not be smiling about that, smirking or thinking it is all a bit of a nonsense. This is serious stuff, and it matters. This is just one of what are going to be hundreds, thousands, of such laws made by the European Union and implemented through these statutory instruments by the process set out in the withdrawal Act. People can say, “Well, on this particular issue, it is not that serious or, on that issue, it does not do any real harm”. But cumulatively over time, all this does grave damage to democracy. It does grave damage and harm to the constitutional position of Northern Ireland within this United Kingdom.

We had a debate earlier on how to safeguard Northern Ireland’s place within the union. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, said, we heard soft words, kind words and all the rest of it. Yet this is the reality of what is happening. One cannot secure the union by undermining the union in this way. If we believe in sovereignty, then it should be sovereignty for all the United Kingdom. We cannot have Brexit for part of the United Kingdom and leave other parts behind. I dare say that if your Lordships and many of those who are not here were presented with the regulations when they were leaving their London homes to go to the shire country estate or to where they live at the weekend and were told, “I am sorry, when you leave London, go to Shropshire, Glasgow, Cardiff, Leicester or wherever it is, you are going to have to apply for a pet passport. You are going to have to enrol for a pet travel scheme. You are going to have to ensure that you declare that your pet will not be moved into a foreign jurisdiction; and it applies, and you can prove that this passport relates entirely to the animal that is in your company”, people in England, Scotland and Wales, Members of Parliament, and Members of your Lordships’ House would not tolerate that for a second, especially when they were told that the reason that they were being asked to do it was that the European Union demanded it. We should be taking these matters much more seriously.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, has said, we will be told—the Minister has said it—that this is a great improvement on what was theoretically going to be a dire situation under the original protocol, when we were going to be subject to the panoply of a full international border for pet movements, as if one was bringing a pet from a third country into the European Union. That was rightly dismissed by many of us who said that it was a disgraceful, unacceptable and unworkable regime. But let us remember, and your Lordships need to be reminded, that there were many in this House, in the other place and in Northern Ireland—Members, the leadership of the SDLP and Sinn Féin, and the leadership of the Alliance Party—who said, knowing the full diabolical terms of that protocol, that it had to be not just implemented but rigorously applied. That is how fervently pro-EU and anti-democratic they were. When we hear some of those representatives now lecture us about what is in the best interests of Northern Ireland, let us remember their position on this—ultra ideologically driven and not in the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland in any shape or form.

Now we are told that things have greatly improved. The grace periods were implemented by the previous Government to prevent that dire protocol being implemented. Even the implementation of the grace periods was fiercely resisted, again by many of the same players and actors and characters. We were told that it was a breach of international law, an outrageous, flagrant breach of the UK’s responsibilities, requirements and obligations under an international treaty. Forget about the harm that it would do to UK citizens and all the things that I have outlined in terms of democracy, sovereignty and so on. Again, that was fiercely resisted. When you hear some of the same people argue in favour of what is now being presented under the Windsor Framework, remember where they are coming from in this debate.

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[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, I rise to support the regret amendment, moved so ably by the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and supported by my noble friend Lord Dodds.

The protocol and the Windsor Framework were built on a false and rotten foundation. The Windsor Framework was sold as a great step forward from the original protocol through which Northern Ireland would enter into the promised land flowing with milk and honey and foreign investors would be so excited by Northern Ireland’s favoured position in the United Kingdom, having access to the single market of the European Union, that they would be camping out and patiently waiting in line to invest in the Province.

Of course, having access to the European single market, we would have to subject ourselves to EU laws over which the elected Members here at Westminster or in the Assembly would have no influence. The concept that 300 areas of EU law should be imposed on Northern Ireland is highly offensive. It recklessly violates our constitutional position in the United Kingdom and dismisses the fundamentals of this heralded Belfast agreement, which demanded that any constitutional issue would have to be decided by a cross-community vote—in other words, by a majority of unionists and nationalists.

The purpose of this instrument is to provide a statutory basis for the Northern Ireland pet travel scheme, which is agreed under that Windsor Framework. According to Defra, the scheme will enable the “smooth and straightforward movement” of pets—pet dogs, including assistant dogs, cats and ferrets—from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, while ensuring that any pet movements from GB into Ireland or any other member state remain subject to the relevant EU law requirement. It has been acknowledged by the department that this is but another example of where a wider consultation would have been desirable. In other words, it did not take place in that wider context.

However, to my mind, deeper consultation would be meaningless whenever we have a Government that have closed their mind as regards the implications of the Windsor Framework. When Europe makes its demands, our Government usually cave in. The United Kingdom Government have got Northern Ireland so entangled with Europe under the protocol and the Windsor Framework that the only way to grant equal constitutional rights to the people of Northern Ireland with the rest of the United Kingdom is, in my opinion, to scrap the protocol and the Windsor Framework.

I listened carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said about taking the way forward and getting the alternative. But there is a big problem with an alternative because the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, who has spoken, and the noble Baroness who is speaking for the Lib Dems have in fact said that the protocol had to be rigorously implemented. In actual fact the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, said again tonight that she wants the Windsor Framework to be rigorously implemented. Getting an alternative, when there are those who see a need not for change but rather for a rigorous implementation of what is there at present, which is totally unacceptable to many within Northern Ireland as British citizens, is going to be very difficult.

Under these regulations, pets can travel from Northern Ireland to GB and return from GB without needing any pet travel documents and will not be subject to any checks or processes. However, the same does not apply to pets travelling from GB to Northern Ireland. This is another part of the United Kingdom. GB pet owners will need to show that they have a valid pet passport document which applies to the pet that they are travelling with. They will need a valid GB address to obtain a pet travel document and that will be checked during the course of applying for it. Why has this happened? It is simply because the EU has legislated for it to happen within the United Kingdom—a foreign authority legislating what happens between two parts of the same United Kingdom. We have been told constantly that we have left that authority. In fact, listening to the Minister earlier on today we were told that Brexit will not be changed, so therefore we have left.

If persons from GB come to Northern Ireland with their dog and then wish to visit a friend over the border in the Irish Republic, they must subject themselves to a full SPS border check for their pet. Under these regulations, should the EU feel that they are not being implemented to the satisfaction of EU-authorised personnel, their operation can be suspended, or whatever other steps the EU feels appropriate will be taken.

If any animal—pet dogs, including assistance dogs, cats or ferrets—does not meet EU standards regarding documentation or identity checks, the animal can be taken into SPS custody. What impact assessment has been done on the regulations, or is this another example of simply being subservient to EU demands? What detailed consultations were held with guide dog owners? In the other place, the Minister explained the reason for her acceptance of this imposition by Europe and divergence within the United Kingdom:

“We believe in keeping our word and in fulfilling our obligations”.—[Official Report, Commons, Delegated Legislation Committee, 6/11/24; col. 7.]


I ask the Minister: what does she feel about her Government’s obligations to the people of Northern Ireland and respecting the integrity of the United Kingdom? Surely, it is time to take a stand and to reject this Windsor Framework imposition. I, for one, am happy to vote—

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

Before the noble Lord sits down, he referred to the necessity and requirement for cross-community support, and he is absolutely right to highlight that important part of the arrangements in Northern Ireland. Therefore, would he accept that when the noble Lord, Lord Empey, read out various paragraphs of the proposal from Boris Johnson to the European Union at that time, he seemed to overlook and omit a key paragraph of part of that? He has done this on a number of occasions. It is that those proposals could happen only with the full consent of unionists and nationalists, not just in the Northern Ireland Assembly but in the Executive—so both nationalists and unionists would have an absolute lock on whether it happened or not. That is something that, of course, now unionists in Northern Ireland would take your right arm off for.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention and I wholeheartedly agree with him. It is now on the record, and I think it would have been good to read that part into the record as well.

The sad reality is that the goalposts have been moved recently. Because, in the vote taken in the Northern Ireland Assembly, for the first time—50 years—they have now declared there is no need for a cross-community vote. Members in this House have campaigned that this was so essential. The Belfast agreement was quoted by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, tonight. The Belfast agreement.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

Sacrosanct.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

It is sacrosanct; it cannot be changed. Yet the reality is that, for this vote, it is being put into the bin and now it must be a simple majority vote. That is despicable, that is disgraceful and those who support it ought to be ashamed.

Animal Welfare (Livestock Exports) Bill

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 21st February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Fookes. I pay tribute to her and other noble Members of this House who have done so much to bring us to the point where we are today.

The reputation of this country as a country of animal lovers is well earned and well deserved. It is to the enormous credit of the United Kingdom that we have some of the toughest animal welfare legislation on the statute book anywhere. I congratulate the Government on the work they have done in recent years to introduce legislation to strengthen even further the protection for animals in the United Kingdom, in particular the Animal Welfare (Sentencing) Act 2021.

The legislation before us has been heralded by the Government as bringing an end to unnecessary journeys abroad of live animals for slaughter. In the other place, the Secretary of State, introducing the Bill at Second Reading, said:

“Taking advantage of Brexit freedoms, we can now legislate to end this trade, which we were unable to do for so many years due to European Union trade rules”.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/12/23; col. 1172.]


I have to say in passing that it has taken the Government a long time to bring the legislation to this point, given that the pledge was made during the Brexit campaign and has been referenced in various manifesto commitments from all parties.

However, my more fundamental criticism of the Bill has already been referenced by both the Minister and other speakers in this debate: it applies only to Great Britain and not to the entirety of the United Kingdom. Why is this? In no way do I criticise the Minister who is here presenting the Bill; these issues are way beyond the remit of the department in which he serves and, as I say, I congratulate him on bringing the Bill to the House. However, the Government have said, in the other place and today at the Dispatch Box, that it is because they want to ensure that Northern Ireland has unfettered access to the United Kingdom and to the Irish Republic. That makes it sound like this is a wonderful proactive measure and that the Government have thought about the situation, developed their policy and proactively decided to omit Northern Ireland for the best of reasons—that they had a choice as to what to do.

The reality is very different. It is important that we have proper transparency and openness in all these matters. As we have had in relation to trade Bills and others, the arguments put forward from the Dispatch Box do not always tell the full story of why things are being done—because of the Windsor Framework. The Bill does not apply to Northern Ireland because it cannot. This is not a policy decision or a desire of the Government. It cannot apply because the Windsor Framework and the Northern Ireland protocol prevent it being applied to Northern Ireland; European law takes precedence and has supremacy over Northern Ireland in this whole area.

As I say, the pattern of seeking to spin and hide the reality of the extent to which Northern Ireland is forced—it is not out of choice—to adopt different laws and rules across hundreds of areas of law applicable to large parts of our economy needs to be continually exposed. We are seeing it in the area of Parliamentary Questions. I raise this matter because I recently tabled a Question on the supply of veterinary medicines to Northern Ireland, which is very important for animal welfare, with wider human health implications. The Minister’s reply to the Question as to whether there were current negotiations with the European Union on the supply of veterinary medicines to Northern Ireland, which everybody accepts needs to continue, consisted of three sentences. Not one of them even referenced an answer to the Question. I would be grateful if the Minister could take away that matter and write to me on, or even explain in his answer when he comes to speak, whether there are current negotiations with the European Union about getting veterinary medicines into Northern Ireland. That would be useful to know.

I return to the Bill. The reason Northern Ireland is excluded from these provisions is because the Government have had to exclude it at the behest of the EU, which has sovereignty over Northern Ireland in this area. They simply have no choice in the matter. Many people will have different views on the merits of the substance of the Bill and what it does. Whatever your view—whether you are for or against the ban on live exports—it should be a decision for lawmakers in the United Kingdom or representatives of the people of Northern Ireland. That is the point of principle in this. In this case, the law is already decided by a foreign political entity, in which they have no say and are not represented, and the decision of which is final. This is another example of the Irish Sea border in action. There is nothing in the Government’s new Command Paper 1021 or the deal recently done that removes this; otherwise, we would not have this legislation before us today, or we would have legislation which did encompass the whole of the United Kingdom, created an exception for the Irish Republic, and would have put an end to journeys going further into the European Union, to Spain and elsewhere, which the Minister has rightly painted as being unacceptable in this day and age.

Noble Lords do not have to take my word for this. The Government’s own impact assessment on live animal exports states in paragraph 13 that the option of banning live exports of animals for slaughter

“cannot be implemented in Northern Ireland”.

I emphasise “cannot”. It says:

“Northern Ireland will continue to follow EU legislation on animal welfare in transport for as long as the Northern Ireland Protocol”—


or Windsor Framework—“is in place”. That is under Article 5 of the protocol, in conjunction with paragraph 40 of Annex 2.

The question of principle here is that the Bill does not and cannot extend to Northern Ireland, not because of any policy decision made by legislators or government but because European law demands that it cannot apply. Frankly, that is not an acceptable position in the United Kingdom in 2024. As I say, there are strong arguments in favour of the Bill, and these have been well described: the conditions under which some animals have had to travel for slaughter over long distances have been clearly highlighted. When I was the Member for North Belfast in the other place, I received countless representations on this issue. However, there are people in Northern Ireland and the farming community who point to the fact that large numbers of sheep are exported to the Irish Republic: the noble Lord, Lord Trees, made reference to the very large numbers sent from Northern Ireland to the Irish Republic for slaughter; and a significant number of dairy bred calves are exported to Spain. They point to the advantages of competition in the market for livestock and the fact that there have been major improvements in standards. These arguments are well rehearsed in Northern Ireland.

However, whichever side of the argument you are on, one thing should be clear and accepted: it should be for us as legislators, either in Northern Ireland or in this place, to make that decision, rather than having it imposed on us, with UK Ministers going around trying to gild the lily or portray it as a choice. It is not a choice: their own documents admit that they cannot apply it to Northern Ireland. Why not be honest, open and transparent about the fact that we are not sovereign and cannot make our own animal welfare decisions for the whole of the country?

Once again, the territorial integrity of the United Kingdom, the right of UK lawmakers to make democratic decisions, and the sovereignty of our country in this area have been set to one side. That is unacceptable. The fight will go on to highlight the denial of equal citizenship to the people of Northern Ireland as a result of these inequitable arrangements.

Windsor Framework (Retail Movement Scheme) Regulations 2023

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Wednesday 18th October 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn]

That this House regrets that (1) the Windsor Framework (Retail Movement Scheme) Regulations 2023, and (2) the Windsor Framework (Plant Health) Regulations 2023, have been introduced under a truncated timetable and with no public consultation despite their constitutional and political significance in facilitating the application of EU laws to the United Kingdom; fail to secure unfettered trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland; cause trade diversion; and are contrary to the objectives of the Northern Ireland Protocol listed in Article 1(2).

Relevant document: 51st Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, in moving this Motion, I want to ensure that Parliament has an opportunity to debate and scrutinise measures that have profound political and constitutional ramifications for the union. Otherwise, the Government would have pushed these measures through without any debate.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, in its 51st Report, expressed concern about the lack of an impact assessment or, as it put it, “even basic information”, saying that

“it undermines Parliament’s ability to scrutinise the legislation effectively”.

It regretted that the retail movement scheme came into force during the recess, denying Parliament the opportunity to form a view before it was launched—something of a recurring theme when it comes to these Windsor Framework SIs. It also expressed concern about the truncated timetable. On the lack of consultation, it again criticised the Government for failing to consult formally on the details. Given the import of these regulations and their impact across the board on everyone in Northern Ireland, it beggars belief that the Government have not undertaken a formal consultation on the contents of these SIs and others.

The protocol/Windsor Framework has already led to the inevitable consequence of the collapse of the Assembly and other institutions, given that it breaches the Belfast agreement as amended by the St Andrews agreement. It is the greatest irony that proponents of the protocol claim to be great protectors of the 1998 agreement, yet they support measures which drive a coach and horses through that agreement. Indeed, rigorous implementors of the protocol in other Northern Ireland political parties—the SDLP, Sinn Féin and the Alliance Party—all penned a letter calling for its “rigorous implementation”. They did not see anything wrong with its flaws, slavishly following the line of the EU. Yet now everyone—including them, it seems—agrees with us that change is necessary.

Make no mistake: the regulations before the House this evening, along with others, establish a regulatory and customs border in the Irish Sea, with Northern Ireland subject to EU jurisdiction in over 300 areas fundamental to our economy. They give effect to EU regulation 2023/1231. This is EU law which now governs internal UK trade. The EU now has the final say over the law on internal trade within the United Kingdom, and if, at some point in the future, it decides to change it, it can.

Contrary to the facts, we are told that this so-called green lane removes the Irish Sea border. In fact, these regulations require traders, trading within the United Kingdom, to have an export number, become a trusted trader, complete customs and SPS paperwork, go through a border control post and be subject to 10% identity checks on goods that are moved—and that is only for the so-called green lane. It is, in fact, a slightly less red lane. It is certainly not the unfettered access promised by the Prime Minister because, if it were, there would be no need for any of this.

Of course, it is not just the extra costs of all of this for business, which will be passed on to consumers in Northern Ireland; we also have the costs to the taxpayer through the trader support service and other schemes set up to implement the Irish Sea border. Can the Minister furnish us with the figures—the costs of all those schemes? Are they intended to be permanent or are they going to be phased out?

The new arrangements have also caused trade diversion, which was supposed to be one of the reasons to implement Article 16 of the protocol in the first place. Although designed primarily to benefit big retailers, the new arrangements have already led to one announcing that it was restructuring its supply chains to move as much as possible of what previously came from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, so that after 1 October it comes from Irish Republic. If anyone is any doubt about the effects of the Windsor Framework, I refer them to the report of the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland Sub-Committee of your Lordships’ House on the Windsor Framework. It concluded that the Windsor Framework rendered the situation worse in many areas compared with what has been experienced in reality, on the ground, up to now.

The original protocol was unworkable and could not be implemented without doing major damage to Northern Ireland’s economy. That led to grace periods and easements. Now these grace periods and easements are done away with, to be replaced with the more burdensome provisions of the Windsor Framework. Those are the conclusions of the sub-committee. Despite all of this, however, we have been told, “Don’t worry— 1 October has come and the sky hasn’t fallen in”. Of course, that ignores the restructuring of supply chains to try to shift as much as possible of what previously came from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, as I have already referred to.

However, clearly worried about how things would look if fully implemented on day 1, the Government have, in fact, in the regulations before us, introduced quite an extraordinary measure to camouflage the reality of what will happen when red/green lanes are fully implemented. That measure is in Regulation 11(2). It is extraordinary because it mixes considerations that pertain to risk, such as risk of disease and so on, with other considerations that have nothing to do with risk but instead pertain to the capacity to carry out checks—to the number of staff there may be and the structures that will be built or not built. Checks can therefore be reduced or eliminated according to the capacity to carry them out. That is important because there is no capacity to carry out such checks at the moment in Larne, Warrenpoint and Foyle. The only new border control post capacity that has been built is in Belfast. Things will not come to a head, in fact, until 2025, when the new border control posts will have been built.

The Government are easing things in, making sure that the real effects are not felt immediately. Once we get to 2025—if not before, when conducting the risk assessment—the competent authorities will be able to say that they have the capacity to conduct fully all the checks. Then we will start to see the real consequences of the sea border. That of course leaves aside the fact that a lot of companies whose goods will end up staying in Northern Ireland—so intra-UK trade—will have to use the red lanes, which are subject to the entire panoply of EU external border customs controls.

These regulations do not do what the Government claim they do. They are in fact another piece of the Irish Sea border superstructure under the Windsor Framework protocol. As such, it is contrary to Northern Ireland’s constitutional position, as demonstrated through the courts, where, in relation to a key building block of statehood—internal trade—the Act of Union has, according to the courts, been set aside. The creation of a customs border—with Great Britain now designated, in law, as a third country vis-à-vis Northern Ireland—as well as regulatory borders are inconsistent with Northern Ireland’s place as a full, legal and economic part of the United Kingdom.

As Jeffrey Donaldson said at our party conference at the weekend,

“the imposition of a customs border on goods moving between Great Britain and Northern Ireland and remaining within the UK Internal market, was unnecessary and unacceptable in 2019. It was unnecessary and unacceptable in 2021 and … it is unnecessary and unacceptable now”.

It will have to go. These measures are contrary, ironically, even to the stated objective of the protocol itself, which states in Article 1(2) that

“This Protocol respects the essential State functions and territorial integrity of the United Kingdom”.


The courts have ruled that it does not. The framework is contrary to democratic norms, since we are now subject to EU law in 300 areas without ever having had a say or vote in the matter. Such a denial of sovereignty and democracy is a blot and stain of shame on the entire United Kingdom. This taxation without representation is something that many so-called Brexiteers will regret in the years to come, as others take advantage of the need to move the whole of the United Kingdom closer to the European Union. It is, of course, also contrary to the New Decade, New Approach agreement of January 2020, which established that the Government would fully restore Northern Ireland’s place in the internal market of the United Kingdom.

There is a lot of talk about the political process and the time that it has taken to deal with these matters in Northern Ireland. Let me remind your Lordships’ House that unionists have been urging progress for change for years. Let us remember the moment when the EU started to instigate Article 16 because it did not want the vaccines for Northern Ireland to come over the border from the Irish Republic. That was January and February 2021. We have waited patiently for successive Governments to deliver on the promises and pledges that they made—including the current Prime Minister. We summarised those pledges in our seven tests, which are in fact merely iterations of these prime ministerial commitments. When there is little or no political engagement at the proper level, and it is instead left primarily to civil servants and advisers to carry the load, it is little wonder that there is so little progress. If the institutions are to be restored, then let us restore the agreements that established them and let them operate as they were set up to do. They cannot operate if there is no radical, meaningful change to the Windsor Framework/protocol.

The Assembly has been changed into a different model, where large swathes of powers are no longer under its or Westminster’s control—not under the control of anyone who represents Northern Ireland either in the Assembly or in Parliament. Instead, those powers have been handed over to a foreign political entity, acting in its interests, and which is designed eventually to bring about an all-Ireland economy. No one can reasonably argue that unionists should simply shrug their shoulders and say, “Well, never mind, we’ll just move on”. Republicans would not do that; indeed, they demonstrated that when they said that there could not even be an extra camera on the Irish land border. No one can reasonably argue that unionists should just ignore the setting aside of the Belfast agreement, as amended by the St Andrews agreement. The Windsor Framework and the protocol tear up the principle of consent and trash the east-west relationship —strand 3—elevating and giving priority instead to the strand 2 relationship, the north-south dimension.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for addressing some of the points raised in the debate this evening. A wide range of issues have been discussed, and I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part. It has been extremely useful, and important indeed, for this Parliament to actually discuss these matters. It beggars belief that had it not been for this Motion to Regret, these matters of such fundamental importance—central to the Windsor Framework, according to the Government —would not have been debated at all in Parliament. I will put down a marker. If the Government are so proud of the Windsor Framework, why do they continue to shy away from debate on it? The Prime Minister rushed a quick vote on the Stormont brake when he introduced the Windsor Framework, and said it was a vote on the entire framework, but it has hardly been debated since—certainly not in government time. It is important that those of us who have a responsibility to properly scrutinise the Government in Parliament, especially on these matters of such constitutional and political import, take every opportunity to bring these matters to the Floor of the House and have them debated, and, if necessary, voted on.

The Minister in his response said that goods made to British Standards are now available in all parts of the United Kingdom as a result of the Windsor Framework. He omitted to say, “Except, of course, if they are made in Northern Ireland”. That is not an improvement. He said it removed the Irish Sea border for goods staying in the United Kingdom—no, it does not. If goods staying in the United Kingdom happen to be on a lorry with goods going to the Irish Republic, they have to go through the red lane, so that is not a correct statement. On the matter of bulbs raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, I will correct the record again: it is illegal for such items to be sold directly to consumers in Northern Ireland. Those are the facts. One of the problems we have had in this whole Windsor Framework and protocol debate is the spin that tries to make it out to be something it is not. Just be honest with people that this is the best you can get, but do not try to cod people in Northern Ireland that this is something that it is not. This is where the Conservative and Unionist Party has gone badly wrong in Northern Ireland. Ineptitude and a lack of engagement now passes for the top level—certainly in the top two at the NIO, whose policy seems to be to avoid engagement and discussion with anyone in Northern Ireland, lest they say something that causes further controversy and difficulty for the Government.

The protocol sub-committee on which I have the honour to serve made it very clear that the Windsor Framework may be a technical improvement on the original protocol, but it is not an improvement on the position with the easements and grace periods. It will be more burdensome, so again let us be accurate about the matter. As for the institutions of the Belfast agreement—the Assembly, the north-south body, the east-west body and all the rest of them—it is in the hands of the Government, this House and the other place to decide when devolution comes back. Let us restore equal citizenship; let us be honest with people; let us have the same rights as UK citizens, as the rest of our citizens—the right to make laws for our own country here at Westminster or in the Assembly. As my noble friend Lord Weir said, these are not matters in which we demand special privileges; we simply demand our rights as UK citizens.

Jeffrey Donaldson was quoted. We agree with devolution. I was a Minister in three different departments of the Northern Ireland Executive. We shared power with Sinn Féin, a party that is unrepentantly in favour of murder of our kith and kin, in order to get devolution and to move things forward in Northern Ireland, but we did so based on an equitable settlement which respected strands 1, 2 and 3 of the relationships within these islands. Those agreements have been trashed by the protocol and the Windsor Framework. They must be restored. As Jeffrey Donaldson said on Saturday— I notice that some people left out this part—the customs border was “unacceptable” in 2019 and 2021 and it is unacceptable today. So let us get on. The Government know what needs to be done, so let us get on and help them along their way. I hope that we restore those institutions sooner or later.

I do not intend to press this Motion to a vote tonight, but I reserve the right to bring all issues affecting Northern Ireland to the Floor of the House, unless the Government are prepared to do so of their own volition, to debate them and to vote on them, going forward.

Motion withdrawn.

Windsor Framework (Enforcement etc.) Regulations 2023

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Tuesday 19th September 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Ritchie of Downpatrick (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his presentation of these Windsor Framework regulations. I have to declare an interest as a member of two of your Lordships’ House’s committees, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and the European Affairs Committee’s Sub-Committee on the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland. Last week in the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee we considered these regulations.

I come to this debate as someone who supports the Windsor Framework and wants to see it implemented for the good of business development, so that people and businesses can avail themselves of access to the UK internal market and the EU single market. There needs to be a driver for that process. I note rather sadly that we do not have political institutions as per the Good Friday agreement up and running at the moment. I also note an indication on BBC Radio Ulster that the UK Government intend to drive on with the implementation, from their perspective, of the Windsor Framework. Can the Minister confirm that in summing up and whether that indicates that the Government have a little confidence in the resumption or restoration of political institutions?

Although I have indicated my support for the Windsor Framework, there are certain issues with the regulations, which were raised last week in our Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. There is a pattern across a lot of these SIs; there is a lack of a proper Explanatory Memorandum in some instances and of a proper impact assessment. The Explanatory Memorandum says:

“A De Minimis Assessment for this instrument has been completed”.


However, the advice given to our committee stated that there was a lack of a proper impact assessment. Maybe the Minister can advise us on why that was the case.

Can the Minister also indicate what consultation took place with stakeholders? We were told that there was consultation with businesses, but what businesses and how many, and who was consulted? I do not think the wider community would have taken part in this consultation. However, I talked to a business representative last Friday and they were most anxious that the simple detail was provided to businesses. When our protocol committee undertook our assessment and evidence-taking on the Windsor Framework in the spring and early summer of last year, and when we published our report at the end of July, there was a clear indication from all businesses that gave us evidence that there was a lack of detail regarding labelling and the implementation framework. That implementation framework enforcement is in these regulations, so it is sad to say that only some six to seven months later do we have the legislative framework. If that had been in place earlier, we would not have had the same level of complaints from the business community. We simply want to get on with proceedings.

Today in our protocol committee we were giving consideration to future short inquiries. One area where there has been a lack of information, and simply an extension of the grace period, is the whole area of the SPS agreement for veterinary medicines to the end of 2025. Can he say, as a Defra Minister, when there will be final negotiations and a final decision on that SPS agreement for veterinary medicines? After all, the agri-food industry is vital to Northern Ireland and our economy. I fully accept and agree with the point that, as regards animal health, Ireland is considered as a single epidemiological unit. I believe in the protection of food safety, so I want to see these regulations implemented as quickly as possible. It is sad that they were not available earlier in the year for businesses to answer their many queries on labelling and enforcement. Perhaps the Minister can also indicate when the permanent SPS infrastructure at the ports of Belfast, Larne and Warrenpoint will be completed.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, with whom I have the pleasure to serve on the Northern Ireland protocol Select Committee, to which she referred. I endorse what she said about the need to get resolution on veterinary medicines. We heard evidence last week, from the Ulster Farmers Union and others, about the serious implications of the failure to resolve that issue. The indications coming out of Brussels are that it is not interested in a solution that would guarantee the continued flow of Great Britain vaccines and other medicines for veterinary purposes to Northern Ireland. I would like a timescale from the Minister of when he expects farmers and the agri-food industry in Northern Ireland to be reassured that that matter will be resolved so that they can continue to access British veterinary vaccines and other medicines in the same way that they do now.

Unlike the noble Baroness who just spoke, I do not regard the Windsor Framework/Northern Ireland protocol as a fair and balanced resolution to our problems with the free flow of trade between parts of the United Kingdom. This is very much a process that has protected certain parts of the Belfast agreement, as amended by the St Andrews agreement—namely, the north-south arrangement—but that has completely trashed the east-west relationship and the strand 1 relationship at Stormont. We can see that because there are no functioning institutions of strands 1, 2 or 3. People say that the Windsor Framework and the protocol are designed to protect the Belfast agreement, but show me the evidence of that. It has trashed the Belfast agreement and its institutions.

The Windsor Framework is now being implemented by a series of statutory instruments, through both negative and affirmative resolution. The noble Baroness referred to news reports about the Government taking further powers—that may well be. It sometimes makes you wonder why they talk about wanting to get the Assembly back so much, because all they do is keep taking powers from it and devolved Ministers. There is not much regard for the Sewel convention or any of that, and then they ask people to go back and administer less and less of what they should be administering. For vast swathes of our economy and the agri-food industry, no Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly of any party—unionist, nationalist or whatever—or any MP from Northern Ireland has any powers to make any laws in those areas. We are told that the Assembly must get back to administer Northern Ireland, but those powers have been taken away from Northern Ireland and from elected representatives in the other place and this House.

These are fundamental issues; they are not small matters but fundamental constitutional, political and economic issues. That is why we feel so strongly about these areas, and we will continue to expose a Government who claim to uphold the union but continue, as my noble friend Lord Morrow exposed in considerable detail, to implement EU laws over part of the United Kingdom. That is the nub of the problem.

This statutory instrument is one of those related to the Windsor Framework/Northern Ireland protocol, and it requires an affirmative vote in Parliament. The retail movement scheme statutory instrument, which was laid during the Summer Recess, is being implemented under the negative resolution procedure. Other important statutory instruments required to build the Irish Sea border and conform internal UK trade arrangements— I stress “internal”—with EU law are also being tabled by this Government under the negative resolution procedure.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has examined the regulations in front of us, as well as others. They are interlinked, as has been said, yet we have not been able to debate them—so far, that is; I am sure that we will find ways of getting them debated in due course. Up to now, the Government have not sought a debate on some of the most important regulations, including on the retail movement scheme itself. That is deeply regrettable.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I thank noble Lords for their contributions to this debate. A number of questions have been asked; I will endeavour to answer them all. I will start by answering the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Anderson, just raised. We want power-sharing to restart and decisions about the lives of people and businesses in Northern Ireland to be taken by people in Northern Ireland. We really do want to see that happen as soon as possible, of course.

I will tackle the points more or less as they were raised, but I apologise if I mix them all up. The Windsor Framework achieves a long-standing UK government objective to restore the smooth flow of trade within the UK internal market by pursuing a green lane for the movement of goods from GB to Northern Ireland, supporting Northern Ireland’s place in the UK. It restores the smooth flow of trade within the UK internal market by removing the unnecessary burdens that have disrupted east-west trade. At the same time, the Windsor Framework recognises the need to protect the biosecurity of the island of Ireland, which, as the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, pointed out, has been treated as a single epidemiological unit for decades. It is the case that some checks, such as those on live animals, were required from GB to Northern Ireland prior to EU exit and before the old Northern Ireland protocol was implemented to protect the integrity of this single epidemiological unit. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, that this is about achieving unfettered access for Northern Ireland to Great Britain in trade terms, but this SI is about Great Britain to Northern Ireland.

A number of noble Lords asked about the practical consequences, so let us discuss what would happen if this SI were not taking place or if it were not approved by Parliament. The consequences would be the UK failing to comply with its legal duties and international obligations under the Windsor Framework. This statutory instrument forms part of the Defra Windsor Framework legislation that must be in force by 1 October 2023. It is therefore also required to establish, maintain and support the arrangements agreed under the Windsor Framework.

Specifically, this SI in Defra’s legislative package is required to enable the necessary enforcement of GB standards for goods moving under the Northern Ireland retail movement scheme when placed on the market in Northern Ireland. To protect public health and ensure food safety in Northern Ireland, authorities in Northern Ireland will be able to check and remove non-compliant goods from sale. That will ensure that consumers in Northern Ireland are protected by the same high standards as those in Great Britain. The risk of not proceeding would be insufficient public health and food safety protections for consumers in Northern Ireland, meaning that Northern Ireland consumers were less well protected than those elsewhere in the United Kingdom, severely undermining consumer confidence in the Northern Ireland food system. That risk is significant, and any non-legislative alternatives fall short of addressing it.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

Is the Minister implying that until the moment when the checks will be done, Northern Ireland has been at grave risk for many decades as GB goods and agri-food produce flowed into Northern Ireland? Is he saying that for all those years we were at terrible risk?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

No, of course not, but we want to have the same measures in place in Northern Ireland that people in Great Britain have. It will also ensure that for certain plants and other objects, which I have already discussed, moving from GB to Northern Ireland under the Northern Ireland plant health label scheme sufficient enforcement powers are available in GB and Northern Ireland. Without those enforcement powers, there would be a risk that biosecurity concerns related to non-compliance with the Northern Ireland plant health label scheme would be insufficiently addressed.

Consultation was raised by a number of noble Lords. Due to the timescales for the introduction of this statutory instrument, as conferred by the legal text of the Windsor Framework, to which the UK is a committed signatory, and the urgency of ensuring effective enforcement provisions are in place, it has not been possible to consult on this document. However, the arrangements agreed under the Windsor Framework are based on extensive engagement with industry and stakeholders in Northern Ireland over the past two years.

Defra continues to engage with businesses through regular forums, including the weekly NI-GB Food Supply Chain Forum, frequently attended by over 200 representatives of organisations across the supply chain, alongside ad hoc engagement. In addition, we have published detailed guidance regarding the Northern Ireland retail movement scheme online and are running a series of training sessions for businesses on how to move goods under the Windsor Framework arrangements. We responded to concerns that were raised through this process and we continue to have engagement with businesses, including sharing early versions of guidance with key retailers and consulting businesses wherever flexibilities regarding the scheme, or pragmatic solutions to challenges, are forthcoming. We continue to build our offer to businesses, including: running a fortnightly whole supply chain forum that is regularly attended; a weekly engagement call with retailers; weekly webinars; training sessions; guidance published on GOV.UK; the circulation and regular iteration of a new frequently asked questions document; a dedicated inbox traders can direct their questions to; and, as I say, more engagement besides.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, and a number of others talked about the impact assessment. A de minimis assessment has been completed for this statutory instrument, in line with standard practices and thresholds for the evaluation of impacts where these are expected to fall under £5 million. The overall impact of the Windsor Framework is positive, as it aims to ease the movement of goods between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and this statutory instrument is a necessary part of implementing the framework. We have evaluated the specific impact of this SI. There are no significant costs to businesses, no significant impact on charities or voluntary bodies and no significant impact on the public sector.

The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, raised a further point on disapplication. Disapplication and derogations from EU law agreed under the Windsor Framework mean that the EU has to change its law, which of course it has to do under EU regulations. This is none the less implementing the bilateral agreement between the United Kingdom and the EU. The Windsor Framework takes effect through a range of mechanisms, including amendments to the text of the framework formally known as the Northern Ireland protocol, unilateral and joint declarations, and new UK and EU legislation. The EU has made new legislation to implement its obligations under the bilateral agreement between the United Kingdom and the EU.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, asked about the SPS veterinary agreement. We have always been clear that the UK Government could not accept a veterinary agreement that is based on dynamic alignment with EU rules in perpetuity, and the EU has only ever proposed a veterinary agreement that is based on dynamic alignment. Through the Windsor Framework, the UK Government have committed to the construction of SPS inspection facilities. The Secretary of State for my department took powers earlier this year to progress construction of SPS inspection facilities. Permanent facilities will be ready by 1 July 2025 and an additional, temporary product inspection facility at Belfast port has been constructed and will be ready to conduct additional sanitary and phytosanitary checks from 1 October 2023 as the new schemes go live. I know there has been consultation between DAERA and the EU: that was happening last week and I know there was some involvement in that.

The noble Lord, Lord Dodds, asked why this SI was not laid earlier and why additional scrutiny was not possible. He mentioned the parliamentary Recess. I just say that it was not possible to lay these regulations earlier. The Windsor Framework was agreed on 27 February. Since then, detailed policy development and further engagement with the EU and with devolved Administrations has been required to finalise the arrangements. As this SI implements these arrangements, it was not possible to lay this SI before finalising the details. Some provisions within the Windsor Framework (Retail Movement Scheme) Regulations were required to take effect on 1 September. This was to ensure that traders have sufficient time to register for the scheme ahead of it taking effect on 1 October.

A number of noble Lords mentioned seed potatoes. The Northern Ireland plant health label scheme means that previously banned seed potatoes will once again be able to move to Northern Ireland from other parts of the UK, while remaining prohibited in the Republic of Ireland. The movement of seed potatoes is permitted using a Northern Ireland plant health label, rather than a costly phytosanitary certificate. Great Britain seed potatoes can be moved between professional operators for commercial growing in Northern Ireland. Once seed potatoes have been planted and grown into potatoes for consumption, they can be sold, including into the EU. If the seed potatoes are grown to produce further seed potatoes that meet the requirements of Northern Ireland’s classification scheme, the harvested seed potatoes will be eligible for sale and marketing to consumers and businesses in Northern Ireland and the EU.

The Government are committed to ensuring that the Windsor Framework’s benefits are realised for the benefit of businesses and people in Northern Ireland and across the UK in a manner that meets our international obligations. Therefore, we continue to take forward work to implement the Windsor Framework and engage with Northern Ireland parties as part of those efforts.

A number of noble Lords mentioned trees. The EU’s risk assessment process for the movement of so-called high-risk trees will be expedited. Once approved, they will move from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, within the Northern Ireland plant health label. We prioritised removing bans on the movement of the plants and trees of greatest importance to industry: seed potatoes, which I have already mentioned, and the 11 most important GB-native and other commonly grown trees. Since the signing of the Windsor Framework, eight dossiers have been approved, with the ban on movement lifted on privet, hawthorn, apple, crab-apple and four species of maple. Another three dossiers, covering English oak, sessile oak and beech, are going through the process, with votes due imminently. We will continue to work with industry to make the case to lift the ban on other species, where there is a demand to do so. As dossiers are approved, they will be published on the plant health portal.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, and others talked about whether this new arrangement was more burdensome than the STAMNI. The STAMNI was designed and implemented as a temporary measure to give retailers time to adapt to the requirements of the protocol. The Government have taken action to secure a sustainable, permanent exemption from these requirements for retailers. The Northern Ireland retail movement scheme provides a much broader scope than current arrangements in both the businesses that can benefit from these facilitations and the products eligible to move. For example, goods that meet GB public health, marketing and organics standards can move into Northern Ireland under the scheme. Goods that have been subject to additional certification, including certain chilled meat products such as sausages, will now be able to move under the single, per-consignment certificate.

Membership of the scheme is broader, too, covering hospitality, those providing food to the public sector and wholesalers supplying smaller retail outlets in Northern Ireland. Scheme membership can be easily updated, with businesses able to join and leave the scheme as their supply chains evolve.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

These are important matters of detail. Can the Minister set out the trees and plants that are banned after the 11 dossiers have been fulfilled and all the rest of it? This is important because, as the Minister may be aware, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland gave fairly fulsome assurances publicly on television, even when challenged by journalists, that all these matters would flow smoothly and there would be no inhibitions for plants, trees and so on coming to Northern Ireland. I would be grateful if the Minister set out in writing to me and other Members of the Committee what is allowed and what is banned; what may be sold through garden centres commercially and what may be sent to individual consumers.

On seed potatoes, I think the Minister said that professional companies could sell to other organisations. What is the position with selling directly to consumers so that people can buy these things at garden centres and so on? I know that he has set out some broad-brush things, but it is that sort of detail that really matters to people on the ground.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I entirely understand the need for detail; I want to get the detail right and, therefore, I will write to the noble Lord giving that absolute clarity.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, asked about fish. This SI simply ensures that the marketing and labelling standards for fish products in place in Great Britain are also in place and enforceable in Northern Ireland for products moving through the Northern Ireland retail scheme.

I think I have covered as many points raised by noble Lords as I can. I thank noble Lords for their contributions.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 8th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Crawley (Lab)]

My Lords, I support this group of amendments, particularly, as a member of the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee, Amendment 117, which tries to tease out the application of common framework agreements to retained EU law and how they will be impacted by the Bill. These frameworks work right across the devolved Administrations, as noble Lords have said, and are underpinned by retained EU law. As my noble friend Lady Andrews has said during Committee, that underpinning is a cat’s-cradle of hundreds if not thousands of complicated and interrelated SIs. How much instability will the Bill, and its obvious legal uncertainties, bring to the common framework agreements between the devolved Administrations?

The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, wrote to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas—and to all of us, in fact—to answer several questions. We appreciate that. One of the questions was on methodology. What competence do the UK Government have to affect the methodology of seeking retained EU law within the devolved Administrations?

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

I rise briefly to follow the noble Baronesses, Lady Ritchie and Lady Suttie, on Amendments 119 and 127. I thank them for casting a spotlight on the situation for Northern Ireland, which is now more complicated than ever. As was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, there is a danger of a change inadvertently being made.

In the Minister’s response, could she clarify the situation pertaining to the law in Northern Ireland? We have laws that will be affected by this legislation, as it will disapply whole swathes. As the noble Baroness mentioned, this will pose a great burden on the Civil Service and could lead to a situation at the end of the year when it is not clear who is responsible for making change. If the Assembly is not restored, it is likely to lead to Ministers here having to step in, in a considerable number of areas.

I do not expect a full answer in this Chamber today, but at some point it would be helpful for the Minister to write to us, and place a copy of that letter in the Library, to set out which laws pertaining to Northern Ireland are affected by this legislation and which are exempted because of the necessity that they remain to give effect to the provisions of the withdrawal Acts or to implement the Northern Ireland protocol. Which laws then apply directly to Northern Ireland as a result of annexe 2 to the protocol—the 300 areas of law?

Then we have the body of laws which have been applied —hundreds of regulations—under the dynamic alignment since the 300 areas of law became statutory law in Northern Ireland: perhaps we could have a list of those. Then, perhaps—and I say this more in hope than expectation—we might get a list of the laws, said to comprise 1,700 pages, which will be disapplied as a result of the Windsor Framework.

Official Controls (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Wednesday 1st March 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn]

That an Humble Address be presented to His Majesty praying that the Official Controls (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2023 (SI 2023/17), made on 11 January and laid before the House on 12 January, be annulled because (1) they are injurious to the integrity of the United Kingdom’s Internal Market given that the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland has not been replaced by new arrangements, (2) they thereby violate the New Decade, New Approach agreement, by giving effect to a customs and sanitary and phytosanitary border that divides the UK and treats Northern Ireland like a foreign country, (3) they seek to protect the integrity of a legal regime resulting from the imposition of laws in 300 different areas by a polity of which Northern Ireland is not a part and in which it has no representation, (4) they protect the integrity of a legal regime that undermines the 1998 Belfast Agreement, as amended by the St Andrews Agreement, which affords the people of Northern Ireland the right “to pursue democratically national and political aspirations”, given that the people of Northern Ireland can no longer stand for election to pursue democratically national and political aspirations in relation to the said 300 areas of law.

Relevant document: 26th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (special attention drawn to the instrument)

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I am glad to be able to rise, eventually, tonight to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. I want to place on record my gratitude to the Minister for the discussions that we have had about these regulations, and for the time he has given to me to discuss these matters and his availability. They may appear to be technical in nature but they have enormous political and constitutional ramifications. This is an extremely important matter, and I know the Minister is aware of the sensitivities around all this. That may be one of the reasons why the regulations are being brought forward only now.

I have tabled this Motion in order to ensure that we have a debate and to have some scrutiny on the significant development of the Irish Sea border. This arises under the provisions of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and the Northern Ireland protocol. It would be fairly strange indeed if such a measure were to pass without debate either in your Lordships’ House or in the other place. Given the time that has now elapsed since the tabling of the SI, I am not sure it will be debated in the other place at all, and so this the only opportunity to raise these matters in Parliament—and it is a matter of extreme importance.

The regulations allow the Secretary of State to do anything he or she

“considers appropriate … in connection with the construction of facilities”

in relation to official border control posts, despite this being a devolved matter. It is another example, in the long line of examples that we have had recently of the Government intervening in the devolved settlement when it suits them. There are many other matters, as your Lordships will realise, that are of importance in Northern Ireland on which, even when there is an agreed position among political parties, the Government will say that they are not going to intervene because it is a devolved matter—even with the Assembly not sitting. However, on other occasions they decide to step in. It is hardly an argument for the necessity of restoring the Assembly, I have to say. It would appear that, even if the Executive were to be restored, the powers taken by the Secretary of State would remain, so there would be a co-authority: the power of the Minister in Northern Ireland and the power of the Secretary of State. I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify whether, in the circumstances of the Assembly’s restoration and the Executive’s reformation, the powers would revert to the Northern Ireland Executive alone.

The regulations also allow the Secretary of State to direct the competent authority in Northern Ireland

“to recruit and employ … staff to implement Article 64 of the Official Controls Regulation”,

which applies because of the Northern Ireland protocol. The Secretary of State in a Westminster department can direct the likes of Belfast City Council, the Health and Safety Executive or whomever to employ staff in Northern Ireland. In making such directions, will there be accompanying resources to fund and sustain them for as long as they are in place? Undoubtedly, this will put considerable extra burdens on those bodies.

The Explanatory Memorandum states:

“These powers will be necessary to implement either a negotiated solution with the European Union, or to implement the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill”.


Well, the Explanatory Memorandum did not last long as far as the latter point is concerned. The regulations are brought forward under Section 8C of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, as amended by the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020. That section gives power only to make regulations as appropriate in relation to the current protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland in the withdrawal agreement. The basis for these regulations is the legal implementation of the current protocol, yet that is not mentioned at all in the Explanatory Memorandum. Why was that left out?

That brings me to the heart of the true significance of this legislation. In making his presentation on his new deal in the other place on Monday, the Prime Minister was challenged on how to square his assertion that the published framework document removes the border down the Irish Sea with the commitment in these regulations to build border control posts. The Prime Minister responded that

“the border posts are there to deal with checks in the red lane. That was something that was always envisaged. It is something that we always said that we would do. It is right that people should not be able to try to smuggle goods into the Republic of Ireland via Northern Ireland. That is why those posts, those inspection facilities, are there. The investment in them is to make sure that we can do those checks properly, as we assured the European Union that we would do. Part of having a functioning green lane is having enforcement of the red lane.”—[Official Report, Commons, 27/2/23; col. 589.]

I quoted that in full because the words are significant, and I will come on to deal with them later. I surmise that this line has been given to the Minister replying to this debate, but I very much hope it has not because, with respect, it misses the point, for reasons that I will set out.

As a matter of general principle, we should, as a sovereign country, proceed on the basis that, if we want to protect the integrity of our single market, that is our responsibility and we should foot the bill for that. If another country wants to protect the integrity of its single market, that is its responsibility and it should foot the bill for that. I do not believe that there is an example anywhere in the world of a country building border control posts for the purposes of protecting the single market of another country. I suppose a country might seek to justify spending its taxpayers’ money to build border control posts to protect the integrity of the single market of another country if this also protected the integrity of its own single market. But in relation to Northern Ireland, far from doing that, the provision of these border control posts actually disrupts the UK single market for goods and replaces it with a Great Britain single market for goods and an all-Ireland single market for goods.

Another question arises if we are building border control posts to protect just the EU single market: why is it necessary that they be built in each one of Northern Ireland’s ports, when you could just as easily build one away from the ports altogether, as suggested by many hauliers with experience of these matters? That is what happens elsewhere. The plan, for instance, for goods coming in via Liverpool and Holyhead is for them to be sent to a single inland border control at Warrington, not at the ports.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bew (CB)]

Because as a matter of fact it actually is, and the noble Baroness knows that.

We talk about sovereignty for the people of Northern Ireland. Two years from now there will be a vote in an Assembly on these arrangements. The Assembly will have the right to consider all these matters. There will be no issue of sovereignty then, and we will know what the people of Northern Ireland think. I guarantee that you will not get a majority in the Assembly for any systematic series of checks along the internal border of Ireland—that is just not going to happen—nor will you get the unionist community to accept the protocol as was. It is always a matter of balance. It is very simple.

Many things have been said about sovereignty tonight. Suppose we meet two years from now, and the Assembly has voted and accepted this arrangement, as I think most people believe is extremely likely. All these arguments about sovereignty—“I’ve never heard anything like this”, “It’s outrageous”, “It’s imposed”—would disappear. That vote is coming. To those who are so alarmed about imposition, I say that that vote is coming.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord. I have the deepest respect for his opinions on these matters, and he knows that. But on the issue of the vote in the Northern Ireland Assembly, would he accept that that vote, uniquely, would be by majority? The Government changed the rules of the Assembly, in breach of the Belfast agreement, which we are all supposed to protect—the Minister may shake his head, but it is true. The reality is that we vote in Northern Ireland on important issues by cross-community vote: the majority of unionists, the majority of nationalists and an overall majority. So when he says that there will be the consent of the Assembly, it is effectively a rigged vote. It is not a vote based on the Belfast agreement. It is not a cross-community vote. It has been deliberately engineered to ensure that unionists will not have the right to say no. That is the only vote of any significance in the Northern Ireland Assembly that is not cross-community or capable of being turned into a cross-community vote. That was deliberately changed, in breach of the Belfast agreement, not in defence of it.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

I thank the noble Lord for that intervention as it will allow me to conclude—to the relief of the House—very quickly. He is right about the nature of the vote but wrong about the context. In the first place, under the Government of Ireland Act and the Good Friday agreement, trade is a reserved matter. It was a decision of this Parliament, and the beginning of the change from the May agreement—Johnson’s agreement at least mentioned the Northern Ireland Assembly, which was not mentioned a few months earlier. It is part of the long struggle to deal with significant parts of the democratic deficit. I take the noble Lord’s point completely. You could argue that it would be better if it was a different style of vote.

However, in this new White Paper we have the announcement of a new Stormont brake, where the voting system is exactly what the noble Lord wants. Suddenly we discover that we have a voting system for a petition of concern. It is exactly what has been asked for, but it is still not good enough. There is a point at which one really has to respond to the seriousness of the moment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am happy to talk to the noble Lord after this and clarify that point. Time is moving on.

I was talking about an important safeguard for Northern Ireland businesses. It means that they and they alone benefit from being part of the UK’s internal market. Irish businesses are not part of this and should not benefit from the green lane. Indeed, the implementation of the Windsor Framework can give Northern Irish businesses a competitive advantage over those in the south. We will encourage Irish firms to relocate jobs and investment into Northern Ireland.

The improvement of these facilities is also an important part of providing safe conditions for staff and animal welfare. The present contingency facilities were constructed at speed to allow controls to be delivered when we left the EU. Improving the facilities will ensure that consignments, including for live animal movements, move quickly through ports and on to final destinations, which could include Northern Irish farms. These arrangements are needed for Northern Ireland—its businesses and its reputation for high health status and high-quality agriculture and food production.

I turn to questions of timing and procedure for the introduction of this legislation, as raised by noble Lords. This legislation is time critical. As I set out, the conditions of the current facilities are of concern for both animal and staff welfare reasons. We want to ensure that, as above, the benefits of the new green lane are felt only by internal UK trade and that Irish traders are subject to full EU law checks and controls, as we have always said.

On process, although a public consultation was not required for this legislation as it relates to the implementation of an existing commitment and introduces no new policy, my officials and ministerial colleagues have engaged with industry and businesses extensively over the last two years and will continue to do so. Defra hosts a weekly forum attended by, on average, 150 businesses and organisations across Northern Ireland and Great Britain’s food supply chain, where people can raise issues, hear information and share their views. We have engaged with Northern Irish businesses, for which the integrity and reputation of their goods, from farm to fork, is critical to their success and viability. A useful example is milk; 30% of Northern Ireland’s milk is processed in the Republic, and milk and milk products were worth over £126 million in gross added value to Northern Ireland in 2020.

On the implications of this legislation for the devolution settlement, I reaffirm that the Government recognise that the delivery of these facilities is a devolved responsibility. In the absence of a Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly, it falls to the UK Government to be able to take that work forward.

I hope I have reassured noble Lords on the scope and aim of this statutory instrument. We have had a long, wide-ranging debate, but this is specifically about SPS measures that we need to put in place regardless of the changes, welcome though they may be, that have been announced in the last few days. I hope that, as the benefits we will draw from the historic Windsor Framework become apparent, we will put in place this week measures to ensure that we have proper sanitary and phytosanitary facilities in four ports in Northern Ireland. That is what the statutory instrument seeks to do. I hope I have persuaded the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, not to press his fatal Motion.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for what he has said and I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. It is usual to say it has been a wide-ranging debate, and we can certainly agree on that if not much else at times.

I do not want to go back over some of the elements of this debate, but I want to say something in response to the noble Lord, Lord Bew. He ended on a note of challenge to us, saying that we have got what we wanted but are still not happy. I want to make a point, and it is worth putting on the record. He says that we demand a cross-community vote, whether or not we accept the protocol. That is a legitimate request because it is in keeping with the Belfast agreement. That has been changed and I have outlined the reasons why it is unacceptable. He then said that we have got a cross-community vote in relation to the Stormont brake and are still not happy. But the majority vote that has been granted to the Assembly in 2024 puts an end to the current protocol and instigates a period of negotiation for something new. The cross-community vote under the Stormont brake does not veto the law. It does not give the right to the Assembly to change anything, and that is the fundamental difference.

The devil is in the detail. We have heard the grand statements. We heard tonight that SPS checks have always happened between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, is exactly right on the facts of that matter. It is easy to make wide-ranging statements and claim wonderful progress when you do not actually look at the details. People are saying that we now have free access between Great Britain to Northern Ireland for all goods coming through border control posts, but as I have pointed out—and nobody has challenged this—even for goods coming from Great Britain to Northern Ireland in the green channel, customs forms will have to be filled in. That is an Irish Sea border. Where else between any country or region of the United Kingdom does anyone have to fill in a customs form to transfer goods, and be subject to checks and to giving all the data and information to the European Union? Where else does anyone have to put goods that nobody can certify for definite will go into the Irish Republic down into the red lane, where the full checks of an international customs barrier are implemented?

We need to get real about this. No one need lecture me about entering and making agreements. I was part of the leadership of the Democratic Unionist Party that sat down and entered government with Sinn Féin, and shared power for years with it on a more stable basis than the Ulster Unionists did previously, when they had the majority. These are people who went out to murder our kith and kin, and who targeted my family visiting a hospital and tried to murder me. My noble friend Lord McCrea’s house was riddled with bullets. We sat down and shared power with them. They still eulogise these terrorists and murderers; they still praise and elevate them. The Minister is right to raise the matter of DCI Caldwell, and we have already expressed our sympathy and wish him well. Sinn Féin stand today and condemn that murder and say it is terrible, but the very same Ministers and leaders of Sinn Féin will stand up and eulogise and praise the murderers of police officers in front of their children—today.

We are still willing to enter government and to move forward with the people of Northern Ireland. Nobody need lecture us about being unreasonable. We agreed the New Decade, New Approach agreement. We agreed the various agreements down through the years. There is no one who should point the figure. At St Andrews, Ian Paisley made that historic agreement with Martin McGuinness. People have this idea that it is no to everything.

We will insist on our rights as British citizens. All we demand is equal citizenship. People talk about not wanting to create a hard border on the island of Ireland. We do not want a hard border. We have never sought a hard border on the island of Ireland. But we will not accept a hard border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. What do we mean by a hard border? What was it defined as by Sinn Féin and nationalist leaders, and by Leo Varadkar? As anything that changed—even a camera was not acceptable. How ridiculous. But for Northern Ireland there is the full panoply of border control posts, and officials jointly responsible to the EU and the UK, sharing data—all the things that are relevant to a third country. Britain is now designated for customs and trade purposes as a third country as far as Northern Ireland is concerned.

These things matter and that is why we are sitting tonight debating these issues—I wish that we could have debated them earlier and we would all be long home, but sadly that was out of our control. However, when we do debate these matters, we feel very strongly about what has been imposed. We will look in detail at all the issues that have been brought forward in this new deal. I hesitate to call it the Windsor agreement because the King was dragged into this whole affair needlessly and wrongly in a somewhat counterproductive, crass attempt to sell it to unionists—the Government should have known better and thought much more about that, as well as the overegging and overselling of it.

We will look at these issues in detail, but what we have seen thus far makes us question some of the propaganda and the claims that have been made. Be honest about it, tell us exactly what is going to happen regarding the equal citizenship of the people of Northern Ireland; do not claim that we are equal citizens and then put in place barriers between our citizenship—between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. We are prepared to make sacrifices to move Northern Ireland forward, but we will not sacrifice our equal citizenship within the United Kingdom.

[Noble Lords]

The Motion!

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, just to keep the House waiting a bit longer, the Minister has addressed some of the points; not many other Members necessarily have—I wonder why. I want to thank in particular the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, who on his birthday has taken time out to come and speak in this debate. There are wider issues that we will be coming to very soon, and we will test the House on many of them in a short time, but in succeeding in raising these issues, highlighting them, and having a debate on them, it is important that we concentrate on the wider issues that are now before us and return to them in greater detail. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion withdrawn.

Veterinary Personnel

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I think it very important to say that there is no threat to human health resulting from the shortage of official veterinarians working in abattoirs. There is adequate coverage. It is a problem, and we are seeking to address it in a number of ways that I have already stated, and others. I hope we can reassure the public that, while there is a shortage, there is no risk to public health.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, officials at the agriculture department in Northern Ireland have indicated that, if and when the so-called grace periods under the protocol end, the number of agri-food certificates needing processing will be close to the number currently processed by the European Union as a whole. It is 20% even as things stand. That would require an enormous number of vets, and the Chief Veterinary Officer has said that he simply does not have them. Apart from the principle that these checks are unacceptable, they simply are not workable in practice. What are the Government doing about it?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The Chief Veterinary Officer for Northern Ireland recently referred to

“available veterinary resource located in Northern Ireland points of entry, delivering efficient controls on sanitary and phytosanitary goods entering Northern Ireland through third countries and Great Britain”.

The veterinary resource remains at 12, and the DAERA Minister has put an embargo on further recruitment to operations in ports. In Northern Ireland, official meat inspection in approved slaughterhouses is delivered by a team of DAERA officials, and Northern Ireland meat-inspection services are currently fully resourced.

Livestock Feed: Processed Animal Protein

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

Tuesday 6th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

Processed animal proteins have long been established as part of the rendering process. As a result of BSE, changes were made to prevent them. Currently, all processed animal products from this country are exported across the world for the pet food industry. We import vegetable proteins, such as soya, from countries which have much lower standards of agricultural environmental protection. I assure the noble Baroness that we are very cautious in this country about reducing the standards that were brought in at the time of BSE. What we are talking about here is TSE —about pigs, poultry and parts that are heat-treated and are an alternative to the proteins that other farmers use.

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, the Minister has talked about trade; the effect of the Northern Ireland protocol, as agreed, is that these SPS rules and laws apply directly in Northern Ireland, uniquely within the United Kingdom. Therefore, how does he protect consumers within Northern Ireland and, indeed, elsewhere, when not a single Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly or any Member of Parliament in either House will be able to prevent this proposal becoming law in Northern Ireland, which is an outrageous abuse of the sovereignty of Parliament and “taking back control”?

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I understand the point that the noble Lord makes. The truth is that products will be coming from around the world—from the EU and beyond—into supermarkets in Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, as they are this very day. They will be up to a particular standard, and will not be ruminant to ruminant, so in that respect, Northern Ireland will be no different from the rest of the United Kingdom. But I recognise the democratic point the noble Lord makes; that is the issue of the Northern Ireland protocol which, if he will forgive me, I will not go into today.

Animal Welfare (Sentience) Bill [HL]

Lord Dodds of Duncairn Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 16th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dodds of Duncairn (DUP)]

My Lords, I welcome the Bill and hope that it gets its Second Reading this afternoon. I welcome, too, the Minister’s clear outline of the purposes of the Bill; I have no doubt that the Bill is in safe hands in the Minister’s custody, given his long and distinguished service as a Defra Minister in the other place. It is good to see him here in this House.

There is no doubt that the overwhelming majority of people in all four countries of the United Kingdom will welcome the Government bringing forward legislation to safeguard animal welfare by recognising animal sentience in law. A recent petition calling for an animal sentience law easily received over 100,000 signatures and was debated last year in the House of Commons.

Noble Lords will recall the debate on Article 13 of the European Union treaty and the fact that, following Brexit, these provisions no longer apply directly. I am pleased, like other noble Lords, that we are now taking steps to fill the gap and make legislative provision for animal sentience. However, it is important, in respecting the devolved settlements, of course, to have consistency across the United Kingdom and that the provisions we are looking at today are also looked at carefully by the devolved Administration in each of the countries that have devolved powers.

In Northern Ireland, the Welfare of Animals Act 2011 includes a number of provisions to prevent harm to, and promote the welfare of, animals, but legislation there does not include explicit reference to animal sentience. The Welsh Government have made it clear that they fully agree that animals are sentient beings with the capacity for positive and negative experiences, such as distress or pleasure. However, while recent legislation was introduced in Wales in relation to wild animals in circuses, there has been no overarching legislation in this area. In Scotland, the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission recently made a statement on animal sentience, which described how animal sentience and animal welfare are defined and interpreted in Scotland. So, while I welcome this legislation this afternoon, it is clear that the devolved Administrations have not yet moved in this area and explicitly referenced animal sentience in their provisions. The Prime Minister’s office stated, on 11 May, in background briefing notes on the Queen’s Speech, that the Government would

“work closely with the devolved administrations to discuss these policies.”

I would be grateful if the Minister could provide an update on how those discussions are proceeding with each of the devolved Governments to ensure a consistent approach.

I want to touch briefly on a number of clauses in the Bill. I am pleased that the legislation will apply to wildlife and across all government policy areas and departments. But I share the concerns of a number of animal welfare charities that Clause 5 is too narrowly defined and that the current definition of an animal as “any vertebrate” needs to be expanded. That is unnecessarily narrow. I accept there is provision, as has been mentioned, for delegated legislation to expand the definition. But I am not sure, first, why there is any need to delay and, secondly, why it should be a matter for such legislation rather than being included in the primary legislation.

Central to this Bill is the creation of the animal sentience committee. It will be given much of the responsibility for ensuring that the duty to animals is effectively discharged, and it needs to be properly resourced and empowered to be able to help and, if necessary, effectively challenge Ministers on fulfilling their duties. There needs to be more detail about how the committee will work and its powers, and that will be examined in Committee. One area that has been highlighted already is that the Bill creates a discretionary duty for the committee to review whether a government policy has had appropriate regard for the welfare of animals. I agree that the committee should be given a clear, mandatory duty to review policies both prospectively and retrospectively. A number of groups have suggested that there needs to be a mechanism to require Ministers to inform the committee when a policy within its scope has been developed, to keep it advised. I know concerns have been raised about where this might lead and about the burden of work, but I think that is a wise and sensible move, with common sense and proportionality. Of course the committee needs to be transparent, open and fully accountable to Parliament, but its independence and autonomy are important if it is to do the work that needs to be done. Of course, people will support it in that function.

I warmly welcome the progress on this issue, and I look forward to further stages when the Bill can be examined in detail and, I hope, improved and strengthened.