Civil Legal Aid (Remuneration) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2014
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Baroness Campbell of Surbiton (CB)
My Lords, I support the Motion of Regret tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I congratulate him on securing this debate on a subject of such fundamental importance. I will leave the legal arguments to the noble Lords who understand them. I want to focus on the impact of these regulations on the more vulnerable in our society.
The Lord Chancellor acknowledges that judicial review is an important tool, yet he has railed against its use by campaigners, declaring, in an article in the Daily Mail last September:
“While charities inundate Westminster with campaign material, they also target the legal system as a way of trying to get their policies accepted. One essential part of the campaigner’s armoury is the judicial review, through which it is possible for them to challenge decisions of government and public bodies in the courts”.
Only three months ago the slight was repeated in the Government’s response to their proposals for further reform of judicial review, which said that,
“too often cases are pursued as a campaigning tool”.
Let me declare an interest: I have been a campaigner all my life and I am fiercely proud of it. I believe that my efforts have enabled disabled people to gain their rights to dignity and equality, which for so long had been denied them. I think all of your Lordships would celebrate this. Where would we be without campaigns to right injustices? To take only one example, where would we be without the crusading spirit of the noble Baroness, Lady Lawrence?
What lies behind many of the highest-profile campaigns? It is injustice. No matter how many times the Lord Chancellor repeats himself, judicial review is not about campaigning; it is about people standing up to public bodies when they get it just plain wrong. That is exactly why we need judicial review and why legal aid is so vital to its effectiveness. It is about every citizen’s right, not just those with deep pockets, to challenge the state if it behaves unlawfully.
Those who may be most affected—the disadvantaged in our society—cannot do that alone. They rely on lawyers to represent them. These regulations will make it all but impossible for lawyers to take on their cases. That is a denial of justice. It undermines the rule of law. These regulations have been severely criticised by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and the Joint Committee on Human Rights, not only for what the regulations do but for the way they have been introduced. To deny Parliament the opportunity for full debate on an issue of such importance is surely an abuse of our democratic principles.
If there is evidence of judicial review abuses—which the JCHR did not accept—the Government should address those specifically. It is simply wrong to punish all those who use it legitimately in an attempt to prevent the few who might not. As noble Lords will know, my lifelong passion has been championing the cause of independent living. In just the past few months, we have had two landmark judgments. Both came about through judicial review.
In December 2013, the Court of Appeal decided that the Minister for Disabled People had not properly considered the impact that closure of the Independent Living Fund would have on severely disabled people. In March, the Supreme Court ruled that three vulnerable individuals had been unlawfully deprived of their liberty under the Mental Capacity Act.
We cannot be confident that such cases will continue to come before the courts if these regulations are in place. For this reason alone, I wholeheartedly support the Motion.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, it is always a privilege to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Campbell. She is an outstanding example to us all and it is a very humbling experience to follow her.
I speak, as she did, as a non-lawyer. I think it is good that non-lawyers should take part in a debate such as this. I was very glad that the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, referred to Magna Carta. I spent much of this afternoon discussing with people involved in it the preparation for our celebration of Magna Carta next year. I hope that next year we will underline in every home and every school in the land the fundamental importance of the rule of law. I would like to give every secondary school pupil in this country a copy of Lord Bingham’s splendid book on the rule of law.
It is all very well to say these things and to pay lip service to them. What we have to do is to pay more than lip service because what is being proposed by the Government is inimical to the rule of law as I understand it. Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, I was not happy about the change in the role of the Lord Chancellor, and I said so at the time. I feel mildly vindicated. I do not, in any sense, want to indulge in any sort of personal attack on any individual, but rather to talk briefly about the principle of the thing. I understand how government Ministers and those who run public bodies and local authorities can get very exasperated and impatient because of inconvenient challenges to their decisions. We are all human, and we all feel exasperated on occasion. But exasperation is not a reason for doing something that is not necessarily contrary to the rule of law but makes it more difficult for people to enjoy the benefits of the rule of law.
Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill
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Baroness Hamwee (LD)
My Lords, at the previous stage of the Bill, I said, not quite in these words, that I was glad to be able to follow those far more expert than I, as they did the heavy lifting on the amendment. I feel much the same today. Colleagues have said that they feel somewhat out of their depth on this subject. To that I say, “Yes, but you understand the concepts of proof of guilt and proof of innocence”. I congratulate the authors of the amendment, if that is not too presumptuous, and its mover, who seem to have found a way to achieve the Government’s aims, which as I understand them are greater certainty and to reduce costs—that is, not the costs of compensation but of proceedings.
As we have heard, there have been very few claims and fewer have been successful. It is not a matter of compensation for every failed prosecution, more for every quashed conviction—and there are very few of those. On those occasions, the sky has not fallen for the Government but it has for the individuals concerned. That is why compensation seems inadequate—I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, on that—but money is how we deal with it, so compensation is appropriate and important. For the integrity of the system, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, referred, we must not let the sky fall because of the application of the test in this clause in the Bill.
Lord Cormack (Con)
My Lords, the last three-quarters of an hour has proved two things to me. One is what an immense privilege it is to be a Member of your Lordships’ House and to listen to those who have true and deep knowledge of the subject; the other is how dangerous it is sometimes to listen to the debate when one has come in with a completely open mind. What I have heard this afternoon has demonstrated to me that it will have to be a very powerful and convincing answer from my noble friend, whom I welcome to the Front Bench, if I am to be persuaded to support the Government on this.
I can claim no legal knowledge. I can, however, draw on 40 years in the House of Commons, when, during most of that time, I had two prisons in my constituency. I used to hold surgeries in one of those prisons and met many of those who had been convicted. In almost every case, it seemed to me, whether the punishment was exactly accurate or not, they were deservedly punished. However, that was not always the case. I came across one or two cases, one of which I took to the Criminal Cases Review Commission under the great Professor Zellick—this country owes him a great deal for what he did. There were cases where I knew in my bones, as they say, that the people concerned were not guilty of the offence for which they had been imprisoned.
There is nothing worse that a society which bases itself on the rule of law can do than to send someone to jail, to incarcerate someone, for a crime of which he is not guilty. I often quote the old adage which will be familiar to every one of your Lordships: it is far better that a guilty person goes free than that an innocent one is imprisoned.
As I understand it from the erudite and persuasive speeches to which we have listened, we are talking about how we treat individual human beings and how we, as a society based on the rule of law, deal with those who successfully appeal against their convictions. No one can measure in financial terms the anguish, the destruction of life, that incarceration for a crime one has not committed inflicts not just on the individual concerned but, in the case of one prisoner I have in mind, his family—his children and wife. His marriage was ruined, his career was destroyed, his business was destroyed. You cannot adequately compensate for that. You can have laws which make it possible in some tiny measure to recompense for the anguish that society has inflicted on the unjustly imprisoned person.
What I have heard this afternoon makes me utterly convinced that it should not be up to that individual to be able to demonstrate beyond any doubt that he or she is innocent. After all, in some cases—one or two have been cited this afternoon—that person will have been in prison for a decade or more. Most of the material witnesses to the event may be dead or have dementia, or something. How can you prove innocence? If the conviction is so unsafe as to restore to life—one thinks of The Tale of Two Cities—someone who has been imprisoned for a very long time, we should err on the side of generosity and not place further tests on them.
We have heard from some of the most eminent lawyers in our land this afternoon. They have spoken with quiet passion but total conviction and I believe that we should heed what they have said. I hope that my noble friend, who is newly on the Front Bench, but very deservedly so, will be able to show that he has reflected and that we will be able to make some real progress by not altering the law in the way currently proposed but heeding the wise words of the amendment moved so eloquently by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick.
Crime and Courts Bill [HL]
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Lord Cormack
My Lords, I came to listen and I do not think I have ever heard more powerful, convincing pleas for a Christmas gesture from a Government. I will not repeat the justifiably flattering things my noble friend Lord Kirkwood said about my noble friend Lord McNally, but he is a man of imagination and sensitivity and I hope he will realise that, if this House exists for anything, it is to say to the Government on issues such as this, “You have not got it right”. If the Government are consulting, it is for the House to say that they have to do it quickly and come back with something that will satisfy the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher. The right reverend Prelate talked about wheel clamping, an interesting and rather good analogy. But the inconvenience that we might suffer if our wheels are clamped is as nothing compared to the anguish and misery inflicted upon a destitute family.
In Lincoln, we are in the process of revealing Lincoln Castle. We have a large grant from the Heritage Lottery Fund. I am acting as chairman of the Historic Lincoln Trust. One of the things that we are going to do is restore and recreate the prison in Lincoln Castle. When people come and look at that they will see the conditions in which debtors were kept. When we read David Copperfield and about the life of Dickens himself, we think, “Good gracious, could people have been put in prison for debt?”. Yes, they were and, yes, we should know about it.
Is there any equivalent today? Yes, this is perilously close to it. It visits upon people who are among the most vulnerable and often the least articulate a horror that leaves the disintegration of their lives in its wake. We are not saying that there should not be procedures for debt enforcement, or that people should not face up to their obligations as best they can. All we are saying is that there should be an ethic and a code so that those who are acting as the agents of the creditor do not act with insensitivity, or even a brutality, which is incompatible with civilised life and living.
On that note, I say to my noble friend that this is a season of good will. This is a time when we ought to have particular regard for the most vulnerable and least fortunate in our society. Here we have the opportunity in your Lordships’ House of putting down a marker if my noble friend is unable to give us a reassuring reply. I thought that I had done my voting for this year last week, when the Government—rather foolishly, in my opinion—pressed on against the noble Lord, Lord Dear, and got a thorough hiding for their pains. I thought that I had done my voting and would not be doing any more. However, unless my noble friend can give a satisfactory reply, we might have to do the same again.
I conclude on this note, by repeating that this is the sort of thing for which your Lordships’ House exists. If we cannot do this, it is difficult to justify our being here. I believe passionately in our being here, as I have tried to demonstrate over the past two years. I want us to be here, reformed to a degree, but for a very long time to come. However, I would not be able to look at myself in the mirror if I did not support what the noble Baroness so eloquently put before us a few minutes ago.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, it is hard to follow the eloquence and persuasiveness of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. I will briefly say how strongly I support my noble friend Lady Meacher’s amendment. I was most grateful for the trouble that the Minister took on Report to reassure us that, further down the line, measures would be taken that would protect these vulnerable people. However, again and again we have heard that this is an enduring, long-term issue. The people at risk are highly vulnerable.
I asked the Minister on Report what protections there might be for pregnant women and women with children under two years of age. That is an emotive question, but it is an emotive question for a very good reason. We have always appreciated how important that stage in a child’s development is, and the importance of the relationship between mother and child in that early time of life. More and more, however, the research is highlighting that the very relationship between the mother and child in that earliest time actually shapes the child’s brain. The valiant efforts made by the right honourable Iain Duncan Smith and Graham Allen MP to get more early intervention for our children are, I believe, based on this evidence.
We should know this kind of detail after this matter has been debated for so long. It should not be somewhere way down the line once we have legislated. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will come back with something more reassuring at this point, otherwise I am afraid that I will feel forced to follow my noble friend through the Division Lobby.
Leveson Inquiry
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Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, we are hearing consensus from all sides of the Chamber on that, and I entirely agree with the noble Lord.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, is there not another issue we should be considering: the exact role of special advisers? I cast absolutely no aspersions on Mr Jeremy Hunt, for whom I have a very high regard, but it seems to me that while special advisers have an understandable role in liaising with party politicians and so on, they should not usurp the role of the career civil servant. I believe—I raised this as long ago as the early 1970s in another place—that Governments of all parties have tended to be careless in the way in which they have used special advisers. This is not the first example we have had in the past 12 months. Could we have a review of the exact role, position and duties of special advisers within government departments?
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My understanding is that in this case the special adviser was one of a number of people, including officials, who had particular roles in respect to the BSkyB bid—but I hear what my noble friend says and if there are matters I can write to him on, I will do so.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
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Lord Alton of Liverpool
He put it rather more elegantly. The Minister having had a tough time during proceedings on Part 1 this afternoon, he will be glad to know that I can be very warm in what I am about to say to him, and also to the noble Lord, Lord Bach, and my good friend, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, for the encouragement and support that they have given me as I have taken this amendment forward at every stage of the Bill.
It puts me in mind of a passage from EM Forster’s book, Two Cheers for Democracy. He said that only “love, the beloved republic” deserved three cheers, but that sometimes the cantankerous, difficult, awkward Member of Parliament who sees some minor injustice and is able to get it right is the justification for our system. I suspect that that is something that unites us on all sides of this House and, indeed, in another place as well. On that note, the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, is about to intervene.
Lord Cormack
I was going to draw the House’s attention to the fact that our dear friend Tam Dalyell from another place recently published his autobiography and entitled it The Importance of Being Awkward.
Lord Alton of Liverpool
I am happy to be in the company of another member of the awkward squad on this occasion; I was happy to be in the Division Lobby with the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, during earlier proceedings on this Bill. Although it has not been possible for us to achieve all of the things that we would have wished to achieve during the proceedings, it speaks well of your Lordships’ House that we were willing to send back to the House of Commons for the second time, on Monday, the provisions in the Bill which relate to men and women who have been exposed to asbestos and, as a result, have developed the fatal illness of mesothelioma.
Yesterday in another place, Mr Jonathan Djanogly, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, moved an amendment in lieu of Amendment 31, which was agreed in the other place, as the noble Lord has told us, without Division. The amendment specifies that the mesothelioma provisions may not be brought into force until the Lord Chancellor has carried out a full review of their potential impact and has published a report on the conclusions of the review. The practical effect of this is that terminally ill victims will not have to surrender up to 25 per cent of the compensation which they have been awarded in success fees over and above the base fees which lawyers will already have received. There is now an opportunity to recast what many of us believe is, in any event—and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, alluded to this during our proceedings earlier in the week—an immoral use of success fees in cases where causation is not in issue, as well as to devise a new scheme which the noble Lord, Lord Freud, told us on Monday is now being worked on by the Department for Work and Pensions.
Therefore, before we leave this matter I would like to ask the Minister—and during a conversation yesterday I was able to give him some notice of my intention to do this—if he would clarify one or two questions which arise from the Government’s announcement and the amendment in lieu. First, is the Minister able to assure us that there will be absolute synchronisation between the Ministry of Justice and the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure that the mesothelioma provisions in the Bill will not be implemented in advance of the new regime coming into force? Secondly, Mr Jonathan Djanogly told the House of Commons yesterday that the new proposals,
“could well require DWP legislation, in which case we would look to roll the ending of the provisions into the commencement of the DWP provisions”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/4/12; col. 839.]
That would certainly be the best way to proceed; can the Minister tell us when he expects his noble friend Lord Freud to be able to make a statement on the shape of the new scheme and whether there will be formal consultation with victims’ groups and other interested parties before a Bill is introduced? Also, do we have any idea of a timetable for the proposed legislation?
Let us assume for a moment that such a scheme—which has proved elusive in the past—were not brought forward, and that the insurance industry simply decided to play fast and loose with the Government: what would the Government do in those circumstances? Would they simply rely on the outcome of the review which they have instigated, and if the internal Ministry of Justice review concluded that it wanted to proceed with the mesothelioma provisions which have now been suspended, can the Minister assure us that there would be robust parliamentary scrutiny and opportunities to contest such an outcome? Will formal commencement orders be required, for instance, before the now dormant mesothelioma provisions in the LASPO Bill can be put into effect? Would such orders be introduced by statutory instrument, and, if so, is it the case that they would not be subject to parliamentary debate? In those circumstances, can the Minister assure the House that the Government would find a way for both Houses to be able to return to this question? It would be a pretty unsatisfactory situation if we were unable to do that.
With regard to the review itself, will it be conducted entirely by Ministry of Justice officials? Will the Minister at least reflect upon the desirability of involving some independent voices—perhaps, at least, a representative of one of the asbestos victims’ groups? Will those conducting the review call witnesses, take evidence and have a record of proceedings—will it be transparent?
I will end by making two short observations. First, as I have said, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords, and indeed honourable Members of another place, who have supported this amendment at every stage. In particular, I want to put on the record that the right honourable Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East, Mr Paul Goggins, and Tracey Crouch, Member of Parliament for Chatham and Aylesford, gave considerable help, across the political divide, to ensuring that the case there did not go by default. The cross-party concerns which were raised in this House and in another place, and which were followed through by votes in the Lobby, were crucial in persuading the Government to think again.
I also pay tribute to the indefatigable efforts of Mr Tony Whitston of the Greater Manchester Asbestos Victims Support Group, whom I met with the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and Mr John Flanagan of the Merseyside Asbestos Victims Support Group, for keeping these issues before us. The information and case histories which they have provided have been focused, understandable and rooted in their own day-to-day experience of working with the victims of this killer disease. Their resolve and dignified approach do them, and those who they represent, great credit. I know how grateful they are to your Lordships for insisting that their case be heard.
Secondly, and rather topically, this outcome says something about the particular strength of your Lordships’ House. Like the Minister, I served in another place for 18 years before I stood down. When the Bill came to us, I was staggered to find—as the noble Lord mentioned at the beginning of his remarks—that the issue of mesothelioma, which has after all claimed the lives of 30,000 British people, had not been debated or scrutinised at any stage. I repeat the observation I made on Monday last, that that is a vivid example of the vicious use of guillotines and programme Motions. The revising role of this Chamber—carefully scrutinising legislation and assessing its impact—is a strength that should not be lightly dismissed.
Finally, in three days’ time it will be Workers’ Memorial Day, which commemorates those killed, injured or made ill through work—a day that is meant to highlight the importance of good health and safety in the workplace. Asbestos disease is often called “the widowmaker”. In 2010, asbestos-related diseases accounted for 93 per cent of all industrial injuries disablement benefit payments for respiratory disease. It is a wretched disease—a death sentence with fatal consequences. All over this country, men and women were exposed for decade after decade to toxic substances, mainly at work, which ruined their lives and cost many their lives. As well as those 30,000 who have already died in the United Kingdom from mesothelioma, an estimated 60,000 more are yet to lose their lives due to past exposure—the vast majority of which, of course, occurred at work. The victims of this disease sacrificed their health and often their lives while working to support their families and contributing to the wealth of this country.
Throughout our debates, I have argued that it is iniquitous that such people should have to surrender up to 25 per cent of the damages they have been awarded. Happily, the Government have been persuaded that there is no racket involved in these cases, no ambulance chasing, and no compensation culture. They are right to have thought again, and I welcome that. We all now wish them well in coming forward with a far better approach to dealing with such cases. Linked to that is a promise that we remain diligent in monitoring the progress that has been made.
Once again, I am appreciative to the House for the support and encouragement that it has given in pursuance of this important matter.
House of Lords: Reform
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Lord McNally
I have no intention of going down the road to a written constitution. This country has probably for 300 years been extremely successful in adjusting its constitution to the age in which it is there to serve the people. Now, in the 21st century, the time has come for the House of Lords to make a similar adjustment.
Lord Cormack
Has my noble friend had a chance to read the alternative, unanimous report produced by 12 members of a committee of 25? Will he ensure that all Ministers see it, read it, mark it, learn and inwardly digest it, because it offers a sensible way forward?
Lord McNally
I have not yet read that report. Yesterday I was fully engaged in the fruitful debates on the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. However, I can assure my noble friend that I have a box by the side of my desk marked “weekend reading” which has in it that report and the main report. I look forward to reading both over the weekend. I cannot compel other Ministers as to their reading but I hope that all Members will take this issue forward with a sense of responsibility and a sense of the dignity of this House.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
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Lord McNally
I will leave it to the Opposition to explain fully the introductions that they made to timetabling,
Lord Cormack
I am most grateful for that flattering giving way. I point out to my noble friend that it was indeed a Labour Government who brought in automatic timetabling, but before the coalition Government were elected Sir George Young and others gave an assurance that any Conservative Government—or presumably any Government led by Conservatives—would not have timetabling. We still have it.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I will not detain your Lordships long. This is a simple, precise amendment. It does not cover the ground of Amendment 170, but it does repeat, almost exactly, the amendment which your Lordships’ House approved just before we rose for the Easter Recess. When I moved the amendment at that stage, I made it quite plain that I felt that it was very wrong to single out a specific group of children who had suffered as a result of clinical negligence, and to leave the others. I have heard, of course, what my noble friend has said, and I do not for a moment question his personal commitment to these issues. But we have not had any adequate response in the very brief debate in the House of Commons, and my noble friend merely repeated this evening the amendment that the Government introduced at an earlier stage, which of course we welcome, but which creates an anomaly and an unfairness.
When we debated this last time, my noble friend Lady Eaton—who signed the earlier amendment along with the late Lord Newton of Braintree—made a very moving speech in which she talked about a child who had not suffered from brain damage, but who had been paralysed. She talked about the needs of a child who would grow up to be able to walk, in spite of the brain damage, and a child that would remain paralysed for the rest of his life. It was a movingly made speech, which illustrated what this amendment is all about.
I have heard what my noble friend has said about other means of getting support. I would just repeat a point that I made in my last speech: the National Health Service—of which we are all proud, and which we have spent many months discussing in your Lordships’ House during the course of this parliamentary Session—is an agency of the state. If anyone suffers as a result of the negligence of an agency of the state, then the state should, automatically and properly, provide a means of redress. This amendment does not go so far as that, because it concerns itself wholly and exclusively with children. I believe that, in all fairness, it is an amendment that even at this late hour should commend itself once again to your Lordships’ House. I believe that it would be appropriate for us to ask the other place to think again. It did not think very much about this one, and it really should. In his brief intervention this afternoon, my noble friend Lord Higgins referred to the inadequacy of time given in another place to your Lordships’ considered amendments. As we look to the future of your Lordships’ House, we ought to consider, in the imbalance between the two Houses, whether it might not be appropriate to do a little more insisting, if what we have deliberated on is so summarily dismissed.
Given the present conventions, and the relationship between the two Houses as they exist, I do not believe that one should go on and on playing a game of ping-pong. However, in this instance we have every right to say to another place, “Please think about this. Think about the children who suffer as a result of clinical negligence. This is your opportunity to redress an imbalance”, because welcome as it is, and I repeat that it is welcome, what the Government have done does not go far enough. Let us send this back. Let the other place think, and because there are no large sums of public money involved in this—indeed it could be argued that we are probably in the long term saving public money—let them in their charity look to those who are most deserving of that charity. I beg to move.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, I very strongly support the amendment. There is a very strong reason for looking at children separately from adults. Indeed the age of 16, as outlined in this amendment, makes sense because in the General Medical Council guidance 16 is the age at which a child can be assumed to have capacity to consent. When treating a child who is actively withholding consent to treatment and who is aged between 16 and 18, the doctor should and must think again. Those under 16, however, go into treatment at the consent of their parent or guardian, not of themselves. If they are then subject to error, whether that is unfortunate or negligent or almost wilfully neglectful, they have done so not with their own informed consent but with that of others.
The amendment that the Government have brought forward, which relates to neonates and birth-related trauma, is, I suggest, fraught with difficulties over the problem of premature babies and accurate estimation of the date on which they would had been born. Even in the very best of hands, estimates of their expected date of delivery have to have a plus or minus of four days around them. That would impose an eight-day error. I fear that there will be endless arguments. Should there be a small, very premature baby in a neonatal unit, and should somebody inadvertently inject the wrong drug or should their ventilator inadvertently be set incorrectly—switched off from oxygen levels, or whatever—I fear that there will be arguments around whether the expected date of delivery was really the one that had been written on the notes. Was it actually two days forward from that or two days back, depending on the date of the error?
This amendment avoids that kind of deeply traumatic argument and recognises the fact that a child undergoing treatment has not given their informed consent to it. That treatment has been at the consent of others acting on that child’s behalf. They must therefore be treated differently from adults because they are vulnerable on two counts: first, their age, and, secondly, because there was of course something wrong in the first place for them to be entrusted to the care of the service which then failed them.
Lord McNally
I do not think that exceptional funding has ever been a specific amount of money and that therefore the amendment releases more of the exceptional funding pot to others. The exceptional funding is there to meet cases that fulfil the requirements for exceptional funding. I will not follow my noble friend because he leads me down a dangerous road. The exceptional funding is and will be there on the merits of the case. That is why we have confidence that the combination of the amendments that we have made, the CFAs, which, as was pointed out, some 82 per cent are already using, and a robust exceptional funding scheme will meet the needs in the cases that are covered by the amendment that we are opposing. Again, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment and to support the Commons.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I felt very sad as I listened to a Minister, for whom I have both affection and respect, fail to answer this brief debate.
I am grateful to all those who have taken part. It has been brief, but that does not mean that the issue is unimportant. I apologise, incidentally, to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for the missing indefinite article, but we are talking about a definite proposition. That definite proposition is this: we often talk about rights and responsibilities, and certain people have particular rights and to them we have particular responsibilities. We are talking about children—those under the age of 16: children who are damaged as a result of clinical negligence within the National Health Service that the country provides for them and in which they and their parents place their trust. To limit the help, in a very small timeframe, to those who suffer brain damage is frankly not the hallmark of a civilised health service or a civilised society.
I know not whether the figure of £1.6 million given by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is right, but it is certainly around that figure. Indeed, the state would be the beneficiary in the long term. It would certainly be the beneficiary in the moral sense. We should concern ourselves about that. Of course the Government have problems. Of course they have great responsibilities for the economy. We are not, however, talking this evening about something that can in any way damage the financial strategy. What it can do is damage our reputation. I wish to test the opinion of the House.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
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Lord Cormack
My Lords, I will speak briefly to the amendment which stands in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Eaton and the noble Lord, Lord Crisp. Before doing so, I would like to add my tribute to those that have already been made to the late Lord Newton of Braintree—Tony Newton, as I knew him for almost 40 years. I was in the House of Commons when he joined us. He immediately made his mark as a man of calm determination who was never, even when he was in high office, tied to a particular political line. He always sought to follow his own conscience. I shall have great cause always to be grateful to him because when I was a lone voice on the Conservative Benches in speaking out at the time of Bosnia, he was Leader of the House yet he made sure that every week I was able to make my points, and he always responded with a degree of care, concern and empathy which endeared him to me then.
When I came into your Lordships’ House, we immediately became allies on a number of issues, not least those which concern us this afternoon. Lord Newton was tenacious and determined, and nobody in this House will ever forget the courage of that man, standing with his oxygen machine either by the Throne or at the Bar of the House, then leaving the machine to come and speak—most recently from near the Cross Benches—on subjects which concerned him. His name was on both the amendments that I am talking about, so in tribute to him I want to say a few words about Amendment 4. In doing so, I in no way dissent from what the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, has said but my amendment is more narrowly focused. I had an opportunity, along with colleagues from all parties, to discuss some of these issues with my noble friend Lord McNally last week. I thank him for the care and concern that he displayed when we discussed these extremely sensitive and important issues. What I said to him then in private I say now in this Chamber: I do not for a moment question his commitment or his concern, and I know that he is as anxious to do right as we all are. However, he is a member of the Executive.
The Government have decided to make a number of cuts in all departments. One understands why, and I am not going to cheapen this speech or this House today by trying to score points about the deficit. I say to my noble friend that of course the Government have to cut, but that does not mean that they have to cut in every department when in some departments, as in his, the sums are relatively small. Those small sums, though, can make such a difference to a great many extremely vulnerable people.
My amendment concentrates on the subject of clinical negligence and children. I stress one point in particular: those who are damaged by an agency of the state have a right to expect the assistance of the state, and the National Health Service is precisely that. If, in the care of the NHS, someone is damaged through clinical negligence then there should be an automatic right of redress. That is more particularly the case when we come to children, and that is what the amendment focuses on.
We had a debate a fortnight ago about those who had suffered brain damage from clinical negligence. They were to be treated differently from those who had been damaged physically in other ways. That is wrong. One should not discriminate in that manner between those who suffer physical damage, which may be with them for the whole of the rest of their lives, and those who suffer brain damage. I am not suggesting for a minute that there should not be assistance for all—indeed, that is the substance of the amendment—but it could be argued that those who suffer physical damage, be it paralysis or whatever, and who are conscious of that are in more personal need than those who suffer brain damage and may not be personally conscious of that.
It is wrong that we in this House should be passing any legislation without pointing that out and asking another place to think again, unless of course my noble friend can accept the amendment today, which would give us all great pleasure. If he cannot, although I hope very much that he will, then this amendment should be pressed to a vote in the event of the noble Baroness’s amendment not being approved. It may well be—I certainly shall not oppose it—but, if it is not, I will then wish to press my amendment unless my noble friend has accepted its form and substance. If this House has any truly lasting point and purpose, and I believe as strongly as any Member of it that it has, then we have a duty to say, “You haven’t got this quite right. You have got to rethink”.
I suppose that I cannot be too greedy and expect the same sort of majority that we achieved yesterday, but I hope that if it is necessary to put this amendment to the vote then it will carry. Here, we are concerned with those least able to help themselves. This really is a case of, “Suffer the little children”, and I very much hope that your Lordships’ House will ask the Government to insert an amendment along these lines in the Bill before it finally becomes law.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I, too, should like to add to the laments that we all feel at the death of Lord Newton. On both sides of the Chamber, we all picture him standing stalwart, despite his obvious disability and discomfort—determined, as always, to give a fair view of the legislation.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for the concessions that he made, particularly his government amendment regarding the victims of trafficking. It is most welcome. I also thank him as I was one of those at the meeting—of all parties and none—at which we all put our views to him. However, there remains a need to provide greater protection for vulnerable children and young people. My Third Reading amendment, Amendment 5, is very similar—almost identical—to that of my noble friend Lady Grey-Thompson. The difference is mainly that it raises the upper age from 18 to 24 for this very vulnerable group. It would protect only the most vulnerable people—around 12,000 out of 69,000 18 to 24 year-olds who will lose access to legal aid, specifically those with a disability and those who have been in care.
It is hard to think of groups of people who are more vulnerable than those covered by this amendment. Generally, young people are rarely equipped with the knowledge, skills and legal capacity to resolve their problems without expert advice. This particularly applies to these vulnerable young people, who are far more prone to experiencing multiple and severe problems and are therefore far more likely to require this specialist legal intervention to prevent their situation escalating and spiralling out of control. How are these young people expected to cope when they have problems if they cannot obtain legal aid?
The House will not need reminding, particularly in this economic climate, that the country is experiencing record levels of youth unemployment, rising youth homelessness and increasing levels of adolescent mental health problems. These young people need special help to get them through to a more fulfilled adult life at less cost to the community. It cannot make any sense to deny them this access to the legal advice that they desperately need to help them resolve their problems and turn their lives around.
The Government have said in their new cross-departmental youth policy that they believe in providing additional and early help to disadvantaged and vulnerable young people, including those in care and those with disabilities. Our amendment would help the Government to meet this commitment. It would protect young people who have a physical or mental impairment that has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on their ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities, according to the definition of disability that is used in the Equality Act 2010. Many of this group’s problems are in the area of social welfare law, being to do with housing, debt and welfare benefits. The considerable changes that many of your Lordships in this Chamber debated during the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill will undoubtedly mean that more young people with disabilities will face social welfare problems and will need that help to understand and gain from the new benefits regime. It simply cannot be right to leave disabled young people without the support they need to enforce payment of their entitlements.
As I have said, the amendment would also protect care leavers under the age of 25. This group is also highly vulnerable. Care leavers are far more likely to end up unemployed, homeless or in prison—alas, this will happen to too many of them—and to experience high levels of common social welfare problems. They will need good legal advice to avoid poor outcomes. The amendment would cost around £4 million, a figure far lower than the cost of not providing access to legal aid for these young people.
Research by Youth Access shows that legal advice which is targeted at vulnerable groups is particularly cost-effective and that this group is more likely to experience stress, violence and homelessness if they do not manage to get good legal advice at an early stage. Each year, 750,000 young people aged between 16 and 24 become mentally or physically ill as a result of their unresolved social welfare problems. That is costing the NHS at least £250 million a year. Much of that cost could be avoided if those young people received better and earlier support. Research by JustRights shows that any savings made through denying young people civil legal aid are likely to be outweighed by increased costs in the criminal legal aid budget alone. The Local Government Association has said that it has concerns about the extra costs for local authorities arising from the withdrawal of legal aid from care leavers.
This amendment not only makes economic sense but is the right and fair thing to do if we are serious about protecting these most vulnerable members of society. I very much hope that, when the time comes, everyone, including the Minister, will support it.
Lord Cormack
I am well aware of that but the point that I was seeking to make in a very brief speech was that those who are damaged by an agency of the state deserve the help of the state automatically if they are seeking redress.
Lord Avebury
I am not sure that that proposition is right. I do not think that my noble friend had borne in mind the possibility that the child would do better financially under the CFA. That is a very important consideration. In fact, in my mind it is the determining consideration in how I approach this amendment. If the argument of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford is correct, it is conclusive that we should not support the amendment but that we should allow cases to go forward under the CFA, under which people will be better compensated than they would have been.
Lord Cormack
“Children and clinical negligence(1) Civil legal services provided in relation to clinical negligence in the course of the provision of clinical services which took place at a time when the individual was a child.
(2) In this paragraph—
“clinical negligence” means breach of a duty of care or trespass to the person committed in the course of the provision of clinical or medical services (including dental or nursing services);
“clinical negligence proceedings” means proceedings which include a claim for damages in respect of clinical negligence;
“child” means a person under the age of 18.”
Lord Cormack
My Lords, the House has just approved an amendment which I felt included my own. I am reluctant to ask the House to vote again but, since my noble friend said that Amendment 4 is not consequential, I have something of a dilemma. It is my view that what the House has decided embraces what my amendment contains. However, since my noble friend is shaking his head vigorously, I must, with great reluctance, therefore test the opinion of the House.
Freedom of Information Act 2000
Lord Cormack Excerpts(12 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord McNally
I am interested in this question about the risk register. Risk registers are protected under the Freedom of Information Act, and the relevant clauses were enthusiastically used by the previous Government. Their enthusiasm for moving away from the protections of the Act seems to have occurred only after May 2010. They may like to tweet that that is true.
On the other matter, I know that there are strong opinions and great expertise in this House on freedom of information. I regret that there was no Joint Committee but, under the rules and arrangements between the two Houses, Sir Alan’s committee had first pick and chose to do it alone. However, I urge all noble Lords to write to the committee with their opinions and to offer to appear before it if Sir Alan so deems.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, has my noble friend drawn to Sir Alan’s attention the excellent debate initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, some weeks ago and some of the very real concerns and important points raised during that debate?
Lord McNally
My Lords, yes, I have. It was an extremely useful debate and a number of former public servants expressed their point of view on how the Freedom of Information Act works in their experience. As I said at the time, I do not share all their fears. I am extremely proud that we, as a party, supported the Freedom of Information Act. It has made our system of government much healthier. Frankly, when politicians, the press and the police have all shown that they have something to hide, this is not the time to start pulling down the shutters of secrecy again.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
Lord Cormack Excerpts(12 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I invite the House's attention to Amendment 45, which is rather oddly placed in this group and which, I suggest, stands separate. It relates to family proceedings in which, I remind the House, the welfare of children is paramount under Section 1 of the Children Act. I have identified a very limited and specific issue, where the child has suffered or is at risk of suffering significant harm. The purpose of the phrase “significant harm” is that it relates to that part of legislation covering children which deals with care proceedings. There are circumstances where the serious risk to a child does not emerge with the social worker but in private law proceedings.
Under the Bill, all private law cases, other than domestic violence, are expected to go before a mediator to try to settle a very large number of them, as I sincerely hope will happen, but not all cases are susceptible of mediation. Among those not susceptible of mediation are cases where the mediator finds there is a serious risk to the child. That may be because issues have arisen more than 12 months ago, so that legal aid will not be available. Trained mediators may pick up a situation where one of the parents has a major personality problem or suffers from mental health issues. Unless there is a decision by a court, there will almost certainly not be legal aid. The amendment asks that the mediator can alert the appropriate authorities to grant legal aid where the child is at significant risk. Otherwise, there may be no opportunity for legal aid to be granted. The two parents will battle their way, floundering in the Family Court, while the child remains at significant risk until a judge or magistrates are able to pick up the case at a very much later stage. I must warn your Lordships that the courts will be utterly clogged by litigants in person. It will probably be many months before this sort of case is heard by a judge or magistrates as a private law case. It will not have been picked up by social workers at all, and the child will remain at risk.
I have had discussions with the Lord Chancellor about this matter and I know that his people have been looking at it. They do not see it as a serious a risk as I am afraid I do, and I very much hope that in due time your Lordships will support the amendment.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I shall not detain your Lordships for long. I do not suppose that a single Member of this House would dissent from the proposition that the hallmark and guarantor of a free society is the rule of law. The theme that has run through this debate in many powerful and some exceptionally moving speeches has been simply that you cannot have the rule of law if access to the law is denied to some of the weakest in our society. That is the theme of this debate and it has come out time and time again. I was deeply moved by the very brave—I use that word deliberately—speech of my noble friend Lord Newton, but others have emphasised the point and added further to it.
If, when the Minister replies, he cannot give us a totally satisfactory answer, I very much hope that he will at least say that he will return to this matter at Third Reading, having had conversations with some of those who have made such valid and pertinent points. I do not include myself among them; I do not begin to compare in expertise with the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, or others. I hope that when it comes to Third Reading we shall have a measure that shows that the weakest have not been neglected or denied that access to the law which is their right as much as it is ours.
Lord Judd
My Lords, further to that very important point just made by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, perhaps I may make one observation on which I hope the Minister will be able to give a convincing reply when he responds to this debate. Government have frequently been caught up in discussions about the legal implications of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Invariably Ministers have, without any equivocation, said that central to the Government’s position is the principle that the rights of the child must come first. Can the Minister please explain to the House how the provisions of this proposed legislation further that objective?
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis. We entered another place on the same day in 1970; we have been friends ever since; and I have admired the way in which he has fought against real difficulties and played such a part in your Lordships’ House.
I was glad to add my name to the amendment that was so movingly spoken to by my noble friend Lady Eaton. Unlike her and, I suppose, most of your Lordships here, I have not had that personal experience involving a child in my own family. When I heard what she had to say, I felt all the more thankful that my children and grandchildren did not face those problems. However, as a constituency Member of Parliament for 40 years, I came across many sad cases that were similar to her own. They were dissimilar in only one respect, and that the one to which she referred—almost always the parents did not have the means to deal with the problem on their own.
No compensation ever adequately compensates for loss of limb or for any other severe disability. However, when one is dealing with clinical negligence, it is crucial that we treat all children, whatever the problem, in a similar way. My noble friend Lady Eaton made that point with quiet passion, and it was all the more effective for that.
I have a great respect and affection for my noble and learned friend the Minister who will reply to this debate. After the histrionics of the previous debate, I say to him that there cannot be a Member in your Lordships’ House who does not have sympathy with a Government who are faced with a pretty dire financial situation and looking carefully to see where they can make savings and cut costs. We all appreciate that and do not need to be lectured on the subject. Equally, however, we in this House all have a duty to try to look at things with a degree of objectivity which is devoid of the acerbity of party politics which so often dominates debates in another place.
In my 15 months in this House the two things that have endeared it to me more than any other place are its collegiate atmosphere and the way that we genuinely respect each others’ differences of opinion, even though we may all have deeply held personal political opinions and prejudices. However, we have before us an essentially modest amendment. I know not whether the amendments which the House has just been passed will drive a coach and horses through the Bill. I suspect that they will not and that we will have a chance to deliberate on these matters on another day. This amendment certainly does not do that, nor does it pile any degree of extra expenditure on government.
I take no delight in not supporting my Government. I was not able to support them on the previous two amendments, and I should very much like a response from my noble and learned friend that will enable me, with a tolerably light heart, to go into the Lobby with him if a Division is called. I very much hope that one will not be called. I hope that he will be able to accept the spirit of Amendment 31, even if he cannot accept the precise wording.
Those of us who have served in politics for a long time—and I saw the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, who I deliberately call my friend, nodding a moment ago—know that it is difficult for Back-Benchers in another place or Peers in this place to devise an amendment that will be absolutely acceptable in the precise terms in which it appears on the Marshalled List. However, I hope that we will have from my noble and learned friend a response that accepts the spirit of this amendment, and the amendments spoken to earlier, so that we can move on without clash and division and underline the fact that all of us are keen that there should be equality and fairness of treatment to everyone in this country. Although this Government, and every Government, have to act within severe constraints—there is nothing new in that—let us hope that we can recognise the Government’s dilemma while asking them in turn to recognise that there is within this amendment, so splendidly spoken to by my noble friend Lady Eaton, a real point of principle that deserves a most sympathetic response.
Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, when the Bill was first published it led to a great deal of correspondence from all sorts of quarters, including the Bar Council and many other bodies that were deeply involved, because the Government proposed to remove clinical negligence in its entirety from the scope of legal aid. They asserted, as I understand it, that most claimants would receive representation under a conditional fee agreement—that is, from a no-win no-fee lawyer. However, if implemented as drafted, the Government’s proposed reforms to civil litigation funding laid out in Part 2 will deny access to justice to all but those with the most clear-cut cases.
Clinical negligence claims raise complex issues of liability. The risks of taking on such cases on a no-win no-fee basis can therefore seem very high indeed, so claimants will find it difficult to find representation. I therefore support what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, had to say in support of his amendment, because it provides for obtaining the expert reports that would of course be necessary and says that they should retain legal aid. But, on the other hand, I find myself more in support of the next amendment in the group, Amendment 15, which would provide the cost of legal proceedings in relation to clinical negligence. That is important, and we have heard why from a number of contributions to the debate. I therefore hope that we can persuade the Government that what we are saying in Amendment 15 is sensible and that they will accept it.