Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Markham

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd December 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Markham (Con)]

Just to follow on from that, I very much support my noble friend’s words. The only reason I can see why you would introduce new definitions is that there are new responsibilities that are different, and you would want people to be aware of the new rules that have been placed on them. I will be interested to hear the Minister’s answer. If that is the case, we can set that out and understand whether the differences are so big that you need a whole new category, as my noble friend said.

Having run lots of small businesses myself, I am aware that, with every new definition that you add, you add a whole new set of rules and complications. As a business owner, how am I going to find out what applies to me and how I am to be responsible? The terms trader, controller, data holder and processor all sound fairly similar, so how will I understand what applies to me and what does not? To the other point that my noble friend made, the more confusing it gets, the less likelihood there is that people will understand the process.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I am not sure whether I should open by saying that it is a pleasure to take part in the passage of the third iteration of this Bill, but, as I said at Second Reading, this is an improvement. Nevertheless, there are aspects of the Bill that need close scrutiny.

The noble Viscount, Lord Camrose, explained his approach to this Bill. Our approach is that we very much support the use of data for public benefit but, at the same time, we want to make sure that this Bill does not water down individual data rights and that they are, where necessary, strengthened. In that spirit, I wish to ask the Minister about the general nature of Clause 1, rather than following up on the amendments tabled by the noble Viscount.

The definition of “business data” seems quite general. A report that came out yesterday, Data On Our Minds: Affective Computing At Work, highlighted the kinds of data that are now being collected in the workplace. It is a piece of work sponsored by the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust, the Trust for London and the Institute for the Future of Work. They are concerned about the definition of “business data”. The Minister probably will not have an answer on this matter at this stage but it would be useful if she could write in due course to say whether the definition of excludes emotional data and neurosurveillance data collected from employees.

This is very much a workplace question rather than a question about the customer; I could ask the same question about the customer, I suppose, except the report is about workplace data collection. I thought I would opportunistically take advantage of the rather heavy de-grouping that has taken place and ask the Minister a question.

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[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I too am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, came in to move his amendment. He is the expert in that whole area of education data; like the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, I found what he said extremely persuasive.

I need to declare an interest as chair of the council of Queen Mary, University of London, in the context of Amendment 5 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. I must say, if use were made of that data, it would benefit not only students but universities. I am sure that the Minister will take that seriously but, on the face of it, like the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, I cannot see any reason why this amendment should not be adopted.

I very much support Amendments 34 and 48 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot. I too have read the briefing from Sex Matters. The noble Lord’s pursuit of accuracy for the records that will be part of the wallet, if you like, to be created for these digital verification services is a matter of considerable importance. In reading the Sex Matters briefing, I was quite surprised. I had not realised that it is possible to change your stated sex on your passport in the way that has taken place. The noble Lord referred to the more than 3,000 cases of this; for driving licences, there have been more than 15,000.

I agree with Sex Matters when it says that this could lead to a loss of trust in the system. However, I also agree with the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, that this is not an either/or. It could be both. It is perfectly feasible to have both on your passport, if you so choose. I do not see this as a great divide as long as the statement about sex is accurate because, for a great many reasons—not least in healthcare—it is of considerable importance that the statement about one’s sex is accurate.

I looked back at what the Minister said at Second Reading. I admit that I did not find it too clear but I hope that, even if she cannot accept these amendments, she will be able to give an assurance that, under this scheme—after all, it is pretty skeletal; we will come on to some amendments that try to flesh it out somewhat—the information on which it will be based is accurate. That must be a fundamental underlying principle. We should thank the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, for tabling these two important amendments in that respect.

[Lord Markham (Con)]

My Lords, I want to come in on Amendment 5. Although I am very much in favour of the intent of what we are trying to do—making more use of the sharing of data—I have to remember my old Health Minister’s hat in talking about all the different terms and speaking to the different angles that we are all coming from.

Noble Lords have heard me speak many a time about the value of our health data and the tremendous possibilities that it offers for drug discovery and all the associated benefits. At the same time, I was very aware of loads of companies purporting to own it. There are GP data companies, which do the systems for GPs and, naturally, hold all the patient data in them. In terms of their business plans, some have been bought for vast sums of money because of the data that they hold. My concern is that, although it is well intended to say that the use of health data should be allowed for the general good, at the same time, I do not believe that GP companies own that data. We have been quite clear on that. I want to make it clear that it is actually the NHS that will benefit from the pulling together of all this, if that happens in those sorts of formats.

Similarly on student loans data—I shall not pretend that this is a subject I know a lot about—I can see a lot of good causes for the student loans, but I can also see that it would be very useful for financial services companies to understand customers’ creditworthiness. In all these cases, although the intent is right, we need to find a way to be clear about what they can and cannot use it for, and there lies a lot of complexity.

NHS Procurement: Palantir Contract

Debate between Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Markham

Thursday 22nd June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Markham (Con)]

The noble Baroness is correct: public confidence is vital, particularly in the case of data, where we are concerned about privacy. We are arranging a briefing of noble Lords so that everyone can have the opportunity to understand what we are talking about here, which is almost like the plumbing of the system. The NHS maintains primacy of use—it is the only organisation allowed to use it—and privacy will be maintained at all times. It is much better to think of whoever wins this contract—we do not know who they are—as just the technology provider, like Microsoft, for instance. We use private sector companies for technology all the time. The key thing is that the provider is protected. That is the NHS, and no one else can get access.

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister talked about the plumbing, but is it not the case that, with this further contract, which has had no tendering, Palantir’s Foundry system is further embedded in the federated data platform of the NHS, and what we are effectively seeing is what the Doctors’ Association UK calls a “monopoly lock-in” that is therefore a shoe-in for the award of the next contract?