Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued) & Report stage & Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 5th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, as my noble friend Lady Hamwee has made clear, on these Benches we support Amendments 17 and 25. I am particularly pleased to see my Committee stage amendment enhanced in this way, and to see the noble Lord, Lord Patel, adding his powerful voice at this stage.

The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, emphasised the importance of those from the EEA who work in our creative industries and those who work in international research and innovation. As he said, the creative industries are a hugely successful sector generating over £112 billion for the UK economy, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, emphasised, it is vital that changes being made in the immigration system protect the excellent UK medical research environment, which drives vital progress for our patients. As the noble Lord, Lord Patel, said, our research and innovation sector is world-class. I can testify to that as the chair of a university council.

All noble Lords have emphasised the importance of freedom of movement and international mobility to both these groups. I am not going to repeat what I said in Committee about the music industry. I will not rehearse those arguments, but that still does not diminish their power, particularly regarding freelance creatives, who have been mentioned today.

In respect of part of the predecessor to Amendment 25, which I moved in Committee, the Minister—the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson—said on 9 September,

“I appreciate the passion which many noble Lords have expressed for the UK’s creative sector and its unquestionable success—it is a passion I share—particularly in the current challenging climate.”

Then in a passage which could be taken both ways, depending on whether your temperament makes you an optimist or a pessimist, he said:

“In addition to keeping labour market data under careful scrutiny to monitor pressures, Home Office analysts will lead a comprehensive evaluation of the new immigration system.”


I am not sure whether that should chill my blood, in the circumstances, but he will find precious little passion in the Home Office. He then said:

“I part company with some of the noble Lords who have spoken this evening, as I do not believe we need to create a new mechanism for this. We are very fortunate that we have the Migration Advisory Committee, which has been mentioned many times already and which is widely recognised for its expertise and independence”.—[Official Report, 9/9/20; cols. 892-93.]


However, the expertise of the MAC is very narrowly focused. I looked through the list and I think there are three professors of economics, a doctor of economics and somebody who is a migration specialist. I suspect—it is not clear—that she has an economics background, so that is a full house of economists. The Minister tried to reassure us that the MAC has the ability to comment on any aspect of immigration policy as it sees fit and that it will produce an expanded annual report. What reassurance is that, if it is the wrong body? It may be good at producing reports on skills shortages in the wider economy, but where is the sectoral expertise?

As the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, said, this is about culture not economics. I thought that was a bullseye. Where is the committee’s understanding of the issues, particularly in respect of the creative industries and research science? Its track record on salary thresholds as they apply to the creative sector is not reassuring at all. Where is the ability to consider costs and reciprocity, as mentioned by my noble friend and other noble Lords? I do not believe the Minister has persuaded us that the MAC is the right body to carry out a review of the recruitment of international research and innovation staff, and creatives, into the country. We heard all around the House about this: from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, about artists; from the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about orchestras; from my noble friend Lady Hamwee and, eloquently, from the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, about creatives. Where is that understanding in the MAC?

In contrast, Amendment 25 would have a proper focus—I think that was the phrase used by the noble Baroness, Lady Bull—on these sectors. On these Benches, we fully understand that the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, intends not to put his amendment to a vote. But I assure him that we will give him every support in prosecuting his case in every other way possible.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op) [V]]

My Lords, Amendments 17 and 25, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and others are ones that I fully support. To deal first with science and research, in this instance I agree with the Prime Minister: I want Britain to be a science superpower. That is a wonderful idea and aim, and if we delivered it we would ensure that the wonderful work of our innovation continued. My problem is that we seem to be doing everything possible to ensure that it does not happen. I bet that our competitors in the United States, France and Germany cannot believe their luck given how Britain is acting, as we are doing everything possible to drive people away—the innovators and scientists, the people who want to come to develop new drugs. Look at all areas of work and business; they are being driven away by the attitude of the Government. I find it frankly astonishing that we have to have this debate. It is of course one of the many benefits of Brexit. It keeps on giving, and I find it astonishing that we are here.

I also remembered the words of the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, in Committee, when he told us that we should not forget that:

“What we do to others will be done to us”.—[Official Report, 9/9/20; col. 876.]


We are going to find ourselves in all sorts of difficulties, and I will miss what we had. It gives me no pleasure at all to see what Britain is doing.

With regard to the arts, again, it is hard to overestimate the amount of money the arts bring in, and many noble Lords spoke passionately about them. I wanted to mention somebody who changed my life. Franz Busuttil was my music teacher at school; I met him when I was 11, and he taught me how to read music and play musical instruments. I did my Associated Board exams and he opened up my life to the world of the arts and music. Franz was Maltese, of course; he probably would not be allowed in under the present regime, but he changed my life and, when I go to the Globe or a concert, I always think about how Franz did that for me and his contribution to this country as an immigrant.

When you sit in a theatre, such as the Globe, and look around, people from all over the world are sitting there, watching Shakespeare being performed in a theatre very close to where it was performed originally. People often come to Britain—and we want tourists to come here—but they do not often come for the weather; they come for the art, the culture and the fantastic experience they can have. Look at the Edinburgh Festival, the greatest arts festival in the world. That is what this country is all about.

Again, with the decisions we will take here today on this Bill, we are just cutting our nose off to spite our face; it is absolute madness. I fully support these amendments and hope that the noble Baroness can see the passion of many noble Lords who have spoken in this debate and give a positive reply.

Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 9th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will not mind if I intervene briefly before he speaks.

I do not think that the Minister can be in any doubt about the powerful concerns that noble Lords have expressed during this debate. First, I thank all those noble Lords who have spoken in the debate on my Amendment 69. Of course, it is part of a pattern across the board in other areas, including universities and the tech industries, which my noble friend Lady Ludford mentioned as well.

I thank the Minister for his response but he is placing an awful lot of weight on the Migration Advisory Committee making an impact assessment in this area. I will read extremely carefully what he has to say but the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, had it right when she expressed doubt over whether that was the right body to be carrying out this kind of assessment: a rather cold, hard, economic assessment that does not take into account many of the other surrounding circumstances involving our creative industries.

The Minister thinks that the amendment, by creating this kind of assessment and report, would replicate what is already there. I beg to differ: this is a separate, and rather different, arrangement, particularly with respect to its consideration of reciprocity. A number of noble Lords were in agreement that reciprocity was extremely important. I thought that the testimonies of the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, were particularly important; they spoke from their personal experience. That is not something that the Migration Advisory Committee would deal with.

I will certainly read with interest and care what the Minister has had to say but we may wish to come back to this really important subject—which has gained such support across the House—on Report.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

I thank the Minister for his response to the debate. He should be in no doubt of the importance that noble Lords place on these issues, whether it is innovation and research, the arts and creative industries, our universities or our faith communities. I think it very likely that we will come back to these matters on Report.

Would the Minister be prepared to ask his office to go through the debate in the next few days? He could write to us all, as there may be some more points to which we have not had full answers. This may actually assist the Minister; these things might not come back at the next stage.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Monday 14th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that lucid exposition. When one has 282 amendments from the Commons, which I think is fairly unusual after the Lords have worked on a Bill, we find that the Commons have made many improvements, with one or two notable exceptions that no doubt we will come to in later groups. I welcome Amendments 8, 9 and 10 in particular, and Amendment 12. I heard what the Minister said in caveating the intended extent of the amendment. I very much hope that it will have the effect he hopes for. The automated decision-making provisions have to be in line with the GDPR, so it is clearly necessary to amend the Bill in that respect, but I generally welcome this group of amendments.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I too welcome this group of amendments. First, on Amendments 8, 9 and 10, I recall the debate led by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, who is not in his place at the moment. He talked about his experience of the parish council in his area, explaining that a part-time clerk did a couple of days a week and it was impossible. He made his case well and I am happy to support him in it. I am glad to see that the Government have listened. I also believe that many Members on all sides of the House in the other place made similar points. I thank the Government very much for that.

I am very pleased with Amendment 12. We, with the Liberal Democrats, raised this issue during a debate in this House. We could not get it all agreed before it left to go to the other place but I had two very positive meetings with Matt Hancock and Margot James. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, also came along to our other meetings and the noble Lord, Lord Hayward, from the Conservative Benches, was also involved. We got to a good place. Nobody from any party thought that this issue should not be properly recognised in legislation. I am very pleased that the Minister and his colleagues have listened to us.

The Minister is of course right that technology changes all the time. We have no idea what we will be doing in four or five years’ time. Things move so fast now, so it is good that our legislation is written to take that into account. I was also pleased to hear the Minister say that the Government intend to consult and work with the Parliamentary Parties Panel, which is very important. It is a statutory body, set up in the PPERA 2000, where practitioners from all political parties can come together and talk with both the Electoral Commission and Cabinet Office officials. It really is the body where the people who know what they are talking about can come together. I sat on the body for many years and there was a lot of agreement among party officials about what needs to be done. I am glad that the Government will do it and I am pleased with what has come forward today.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 13th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, Amendment 42, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, was also debated in Committee. The noble Baroness, her noble friend and other noble Lords raised concerns in Committee about paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 in respect of the broad nature, the wide-ranging exemptions and the application of those exemptions. I see the point about the application of this part of the Bill. The amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde, set out in the Bill those rights which might be restricted by virtue of article 23(1) of the GDPR and so give more focus to this part of the schedule.

I want to see effective immigration controls and also fair immigration controls, but I do not want to see people unable to get access to data held on them or to how that data is being used and shared except in limited circumstances. I hope the Minister can confirm that the government amendments will do this on a case-by-case basis and do not provide a blanket power. These things are very sensitive and are a matter of balancing important principles, protections and rights carefully and coming down with the right protections in place. I think it would be a problem if we were left in a situation where we could disclose to data subjects information that could give them the opportunity to circumvent our immigration controls.

The noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, gave a detailed explanation of the Government’s opposition to the amendment in Committee and highlighted a number of the issues that would come forward. I do not think anyone wants a situation where we are making things worse for ourselves. I recall the examples given of an overstayer where the authorities are seeking to enforce an administrative removal or where there is an application to extend the leave to stay and it is suspected that false information has been given. These seem perfectly reasonable to me. The amendments tabled by the Government provide important clarification on what is exempt, limit the power in the Bill and seek to address the concerns highlighted during the previous debate and today.

[Lord Clement-Jones]

Before the noble Lord sits down, does he therefore agree with the Government that this is all about the circumvention of immigration controls? Does he not think that essentially, as my noble friend Lady Hamwee mentioned, most of the circumstances are about people asserting their rights?

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I accept that people want to assert their rights. Of course I do. I also think that we had a very detailed debate in Committee. Points were raised about the broad-brush approach; the Government have responded, and I am happy to support their amendments.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Report stage (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 11th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness having sat through my last speech, I am in no position to judge. That was a skilful summary of the memorandum put to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and it is useful to have it on the parliamentary record.

I remind the House that the amendments we have brought forward do not take the ultra position, if you like. They are about having an appropriate level of parliamentary control over delegated legislation in a field where these are important matters—rights which are inextricably linked to human rights. To boil down a long memorandum, the Minister’s arguments are about flexibility and future proofing. However, the horse has bolted. In previous legislation such regulations were permitted to be made by government and therefore we should roll over and put them into the next bit of legislation.

The one essence that I take away is that the consultation duty is enshrined. I accept that it is a considerable improvement that the Secretary of State must consult the commissioner and such other persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate. It would be useful at this stage at least to have on the record the kinds of bodies the Minister thinks are appropriate in these circumstances.

The real issue and the reason why we have tabled our amendments—I am not saying they are perfect but they allow for a parliamentary process in which there is an ability to suggest amendments and to have a full consultation on regulation changes—is the controversy about “omission”, “addition” and “varying”. The Government have clearly come to the view that omitting provisions is permissible in certain circumstances but they are relying on adding or varying. They say that varying is a light-touch aspect but why, in certain circumstances, is it permissible to omit provisions added by regulations? Is this a kind of second thoughts aspect, whereby regulations are brought forward under this Bill and then the Government think they want to omit some of them? I do not quite understand the rationale behind that.

I accept that in some of the crucial cases they are limiting themselves to “adding” or “varying”. However, variation can be extremely broad and virtually equivalent to omitting. It seems that one can vary a right all the way down to a minuscule situation which can impinge on the human rights of an individual, even though it is not technically an omission where a safeguard is provided. These are very broad rights. They are broad powers to create new exemptions to data protection rules as they affect a data subject and they can add exemptions to safeguards for processing sensitive personal data. These matters could have a powerful effect on individuals.

I should remind the Minister of a sad aspect, which is that in its procedures, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee does not seem to have a second bite of the cherry—something I am sure the Minister approves of entirely. But for those of us who relied on the very useful original DPRRC report, it is unfortunate that the committee has not come back and said what it thinks of the ministerial memorandum. In the original report the committee went as far as to say:

“We consider that clause 9(6) is inappropriately wide and recommend its removal from the Bill”.


That is pretty heavy stuff, even for this useful committee. It had even more to say about Clause 15:

“We regard this is an insufficient and unconvincing explanation for such an important power”.


I must put on the record that we on these Benches do not think that the Government have discharged the onus of proof, showing why they need these extraordinary powers under the Bill, and we hope that they will further reduce their regulation-making powers.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, this group of overwhelmingly government amendments seeks to address issues raised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in its sixth report, published on 24 October this year, the only addition being Amendments 10 and 69 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Paddick. As we have heard, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee is widely respected in the House and I am pleased that the government amendments address the concerns raised by the committee. But as we have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Chisholm of Owlpen, those concerns have not been accepted in full, and she has given the reasons for that.

I was particularly pleased to see government Amendments 9, 67 and 68, among others, which would limit the powers to amend the processing conditions and exemptions found in various schedules to the Bill. I am equally pleased to see the Government act in respect of the powers to make regulations. This will be done using the affirmative rather the negative procedure, starting with government Amendment 71. It gives Parliament the right level of scrutiny and the ability to reject or express regret about a particular decision, and allows for a proper level of scrutiny, a debate having to take place in both Houses.

In respect of Clauses 9 and 15, Amendments 10 and 69 seek to change the scrutiny procedure from the affirmative, as presently in the Bill, to the super-affirmative. I am not convinced that this is necessary as we have the tools at our disposal to scrutinise the proposals using the affirmative procedure. Starting with government Amendment 130, we have a series of amendments relating to the enforcement powers of the ICO, and again these are to be welcomed.

As I say, in general I welcome the government amendments and the explanation given by the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

I thank the noble Lord for those kind words. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, asked who would be consulted. While it is clearly impossible to be specific, the Secretary of State might consider it appropriate to consult, for example, representatives of data subjects or trade bodies, depending on the circumstances and regulations in question. I hope that that answers his question.

On why it is permissible to admit provisions added by regulations, we believe it is qualitatively different from admitting those added during the extensive parliamentary debate and scrutiny afforded to primary legislation. As I said, many other powers are not new. The 1998 Act already provides a power to add to conditions for sensitive processing. We feel it is prudent to retain the ability to amend Schedules 2 to 4 if necessary. As I said, this is a fast-moving area. We want to make sure that the Bill provides a framework for the constant evolution and developments in how we use and apply data, but it must be supportive rather than stifle innovation and growth.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, who has very impressively pursued these issues with considerable care and determination. He has said pretty much everything that needs to be said. Processing special category data, including health data and criminal convictions is, as he said, fundamental to calculating levels of risk and underwriting. I hardly need to say that to the Minister. His amendments are welcome, but of course the essence of the noble Earl’s amendments is to get from the Minister a progress report on how things are moving on in terms of enabling the continued processing of special category and criminal conviction data and whether we can get something along the right lines that allows a derogation for processing of special category and criminal conviction data where it is necessary in relation to insurance policies and claims. That would prevent disruption to consumers in the way the noble Earl mentioned. Then, of course, there is the guidance produced by Amendment 26; this is what you might call a sprat to catch a mackerel and I hope that the Minister will deliver the mackerel.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I welcome government Amendments 11 and 12. As we have heard, they address some of the concerns that were raised in Committee. The Government have said that they never intended to have a narrow interpretation and they have put back the words of the 1998 Act, which is very welcome. As was said earlier, the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, has laid out in great detail the issues addressed in his Amendments 25 and 26. He makes a very important and clear case and raised some important issues. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde, will respond to those. I certainly think that there is a case for bringing these things back at Third Reading to address the points the noble Earl has raised.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Monday 11th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I hope to be as brief as the Minister, who I thought was admirably so in introducing the government amendments. However, there are some issues that arise. I applaud the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, and others who have been so instrumental in persuading the Government on this. As the noble Lord, Lord Patel, indicated in various ways, there are ambiguities; the particular way in which the Government have chosen to amend the Bill potentially leaves a gap. I wonder, for instance, whether alumni fundraising for, say, a research institute can never be in the public interest. Is there not a possibility that it might fall outside the exemptions as a result? Perhaps the Minister can give me the correct interpretation. It is very important that this is on the record and that it is very clear what the formulation means. It would have been much more straightforward to have approached the subject directly in the Freedom of Information Act, but that is not the way the Government have chosen to help alumni fundraising in universities. In talking about universities, I should declare an interest as chairman of the council of Queen Mary University as well.

Another question arises. By and large there is nothing particularly controversial in the remainder of the amendments, but I do not quite understand why new Section 76C of the Freedom of Information Act, which was introduced in the original version of the Bill, is now being taken out by Amendment 198. Is it because Clause 127 already provides the necessary duty of confidentiality of information by the commissioner and employees of the Information Commissioner’s Office? The Minister might have given us a bit of explanation about that, which would have been extremely helpful.

Otherwise, many of the other provisions are welcome. Amendments 119, 182 and 197 demonstrate that it would be a good idea to have prompt enactment or implementation of legislation, so that weird and wonderful new clauses such as are introduced by those amendments would be unnecessary.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Chisholm of Owlpen, for her explanation of the government amendments in this group, which are largely in response to issues raised in Committee. I do not intend to speak for long on this group, because the amendments are largely to be welcomed. I want to pay particular tribute to my noble friend Lady Royall of Blaisdon, who raised the concern of the university sector during Committee that, under the Bill, universities could find themselves in difficulty over fundraising activities with alumni. We were pleased to see today that the Government have listened and addressed that. My noble friend cannot be with us today because of the weather making it difficult for her to travel to London. Generally, the higher education sector and others are grateful for what is proposed, although a couple of noble Lords have raised particular concerns, so it would be useful if the Minister could address those in her response. There may be one area that has not quite been resolved.

There are a couple of issues to mention. We are happy to support the amendment on police sharing of information for law enforcement purposes, as I am the amendment in respect of the Prisoner Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and the technical amendments on tribunals and courts to ensure consistency of language.

I shall not go on any further, because I am conscious that we have two Statements today and one will take at least an hour and the other 40 minutes, and the dinner break business for an hour, which will eat in to our time for Report today. I shall leave it here and say well done to the Government: thank you very much for that. It is better that we spend our day looking at issues that we have not quite resolved.

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for the points they made. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, as my noble friend Lord Ashton explained in previous debates, Clause 7 was never intended to provide an exhaustive list of public interest tasks but, rather, to ensure continuity with respect to those processing activities that cover paragraph 5 of Schedule 2 to the 1968 Act. However, I am happy to reiterate that medical research—and other types of research carried out by universities for the benefit of society—will almost always be seen as a public interest task. I appreciate the sector’s desire to have greater guidance from the Information Commissioner on the issue, and I shall certainly pass that on, but the noble Lord will appreciate that it is not for me to dictate the Information Commissioner’s precise programme of work from the Dispatch Box.

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Smith and Lord Macdonald, for their kind words. I think we have put universities on a safe footing in this regard. I reiterate my thanks to them for coming to see us and helping us with that amendment.

The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, asked: is alumni fundraising always in the public interest, and what about medical research?

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 22nd November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, government Amendments 185A, 185B, 185C and 185D add four fairly substantial new clauses to the Bill on the last day of Committee. I can see the point made by the Minister when he moved the amendments, but it is disappointing that they were not included right at the start. Have the Government just thought about them as a good thing?

The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has not had time to look at these matters. I note that in Amendment 185A, the Government suggest that regulations be approved by Parliament under the negative procedure. I will look very carefully at anything that the committee wants to bring to the attention of the House when we look at these matters again on Report. I am sure the committee will have reported by then.

I will not oppose the amendments today, but that is not to say that I will not move some amendments on Report—particularly if the committee draws these matters to the House’s attention.

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, I want to echo that point. There is time for reflection on this set of amendments and I sympathise with what the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said.

Legal Services Act 2007 (Approved Regulator) (No. 2) Order 2014

Debate between Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Thursday 23rd October 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, both my noble friends have been extremely eloquent in their support for the order. I will be extremely brief because I agree with every word that they have said, with some qualification regarding my noble friend Lord Phillips’ comments. I declare an interest as a member of the Law Society and as a partner in a major law firm. I have never been an advocate or supporter of a closed solicitors’ shop. I very much favour diversity and competition, particularly in the case of chartered legal executives. I welcome their ability to carry out a wider degree of work, as envisaged by the order. This is very consistent with the continued opening up of the legal market that I have generally supported. I did not hear the words “alternative business structures” in what my noble friend had to say at the outset, but I assume that this is consistent with the alternative business structures, which, again, I have always supported since their introduction because I believe that they are for the benefit of both business and consumers. I think, and my noble friend Lady Buscombe made this point extremely well, that in terms of both probate and conveyancing this will make a major difference to the competitiveness of that market.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not intend to detain the Grand Committee for very long. I agree with many of the comments that noble Lords have made so far in the debate. The Opposition fully support the proposal and endorse the reasons outlined by the Minister why it is necessary and welcome.

The Chartered Institute of Legal Executives provided me with a very helpful briefing that makes clear the benefits of the proposal, and I am grateful to them for that. I agree with the comments by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, about what a good organisation CILEx is. It has done excellent work on a variety of areas, particularly on broadening the diversity of the legal profession, and I pay tribute to it for that.

Allowing CILEx to become a regulatory body in the areas of conveyancing and probate is welcome. It will help to cut bureaucracy and red tape and help to make things simple for everyone. However, it would help if the Minister could comment on the remarks made by the former Lord Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips. He expressed concern that regulatory competition would have a detrimental effect on standards, that the variation in standards between regulators was inappropriate in principle and that a variation on standards may bring about a drive to the bottom.

I also noted that the former Lord Chief Justice had one matter of concern across the board—parity of standards when one has a proliferation of regulators—and he had further concerns as to whether the instrument deals with contentious or non-contentious probate. It would be helpful if the Minister could give us his views on those points as well. Having said that, this measure helps to encourage an independent, strong, diverse and effective legal profession, and consumers will have much greater choice. That is very welcome and I am very happy to agree the order.