Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 27th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds]

My Lords, I, too, am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, for her determination to challenge what I still take to be the unintended consequences of Clause 145 regarding the further criminalisation of squatters, which is simply unnecessary. I do not want to repeat arguments that have already been made but this measure will have an impact on the care and support that the voluntary sector seeks to provide for the homeless in our cities. Like most cities, Leeds is seeing a steady rise in homelessness. The reasons for this are complex and the voluntary sector and the local authority are working hard to mitigate its effects, at least as regards providing mental health help for the homeless. However, we simply cannot provide accommodation for all street sleepers. Many homeless people are squatting in empty houses to avoid sleeping on the streets. This clause criminalises squatting, thereby affecting some of the most vulnerable people in our society. I hope that these amendments can be accepted to provide context and support for those people as the voluntary sector and local authorities seek to provide them with help and encouragement for the rest of their lives.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I wish to intervene briefly in this debate. I have come into the Chamber for the scrap metal debate but it seems to me that we may be overlooking a major flaw in the amendment. Clause 145 states:

“A person commits an offence if”,

and then lists various conditions. However, the amendment seeks to add to the statement in the Bill that,

“The offence is not committed by a person”,

the phrase,

“if the building has been empty twelve months or more and is not subject to a current planning application”.

So what happens if a building has been empty for marginally longer than 12 months and is being improved? Perhaps it is being improved to meet building regulations, or the person improving the property might be awaiting a mortgage payment to fund improvements, which might mean that they go over the 12-month period.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

I will be corrected if I am wrong but I believe that that matter is adequately dealt with by Section 7 of the Criminal Law Act 1977, which covers not only persons who are in occupation but persons who anticipate occupation. I think, therefore, that the category of persons listed by the noble Lord will be covered by that provision.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

That is the noble Lord’s judgment, but perhaps I may finish my contribution. Perhaps the Government intend to comment on the interpretation that he has just given. They might also take into account my further point that a planned improvement which has not taken place over a 12-month period could be the subject of an argument with neighbours, who may well be preventing the completion of the improvement to the property. All I am saying, basically, is that to introduce a current planning application as a way of stopping it could lead to unfair treatment of those carrying out improvement programmes. Let us hear what the Minister has to say.

[Lord Strasburger]

My Lords, I should start by declaring an interest, or at least a former interest. In a previous life, I was a shareholder in and director of a company that made its money—in fact, quite a lot of money—from keeping squatters and others out of empty properties. You might conclude, when I have finished my short speech, that I am a bit of a gamekeeper turned poacher.

This clause was added late to the Bill, which might explain why it is a rather clumsy and blunt instrument. I am not sure who this new offence is aimed at. Is it aimed at squatters in vacant properties, who are not currently committing a criminal offence, or is it aimed at squatters in occupied properties that might be temporarily empty while the occupiers are on holiday, or even shopping? As we have heard, squatting such as that is already a criminal offence. I am not sure which situation this clause is intended to address. Perhaps the Minister will enlighten me.

This clause is a blunt instrument because its unintended consequence—and I sincerely hope that it is an unintended consequence—is to protect unscrupulous property owners who keep properties vacant for years for purely speculative reasons and, in the process, prevent homeless people having somewhere to live. The amendment deals with that by limiting the period of that protection. This clause is a cuckoo in the nest because such a provision has no place in the Bill and has no connection with any other part of it. Squatting should not be considered in isolation, as we have heard, but should be considered in the context of housing and homelessness.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I shall add a word or two to what the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, said. When the Minister addressed the House last Tuesday, he made it clear, and I certainly accepted, that the exception is very much smaller than had originally been assumed by many of those who read the clause in the Government’s original amendment. It excepts a particular class of itinerant scrap dealer; namely, those who have been the subject of an order under Section 3 of the 1964 Act. I am sure that my noble friend is entirely right that that is a much smaller number of people than many had originally assumed.

I made such inquiries as I could to find out how many of these people there are and whether there is any recent trend in people seeking to include themselves in the loophole—as it certainly is—in the injunction for cashless transactions only. A good many authorities that were questioned were quite unable to supply the answer. That does not suggest that at the moment there are very many people who are subject to this. However—and this seems to me to be important—since it has come out that there is this one exemption from the requirement that dealings should be made otherwise than for cash, the numbers are increasing.

When the section that I referred to was originally enacted, it was with a view to exempting those who would be subject to an order under the Scrap Metal Dealers Act from the requirement to keep records of from whom they acquired the scrap metal and the nature of the metal. I remember that when I was first married, the children were fascinated because there was a man who went down the street with a horse and cart and used to shout out as he went down, which was imitated by the children. They thought he was saying, “Hey, Tubby the Tuba”. Of course, it was not that, but I do not know what he was saying. With that kind of dealer, one can understand the intention that he should not have to keep records. All he was doing was collecting people’s leaking kettles and other forms of waste metal from local householders. It is not like that now at all. It has developed in the 48 years since that Act was passed into an entirely different kind of trade. For instance, when the local authority in Birmingham was questioned, it said that in the course of a year it would normally see 10 or so new itinerant traders seeking inclusion in an order under the Act. In the past few days it has had no fewer than 12. They are already running into this loophole. They want to continue to be able to deal in cash. As the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, has said, this is knocking a very large hole in the measures that we are taking to deal with what has become a very mighty scourge of the community in all sorts of ways.

The more widely this exemption is known, the greater the number of traders who will seek to bring themselves under it. That is what frightens me about this. The exemption does not allow them to go cashless; it is the exemption from other forms of control, leaving people able to continue to deal in cash for materials that will simply never be traceable. That has been defined as the heart of the problem. To their great credit, the Government have introduced a substantial measure, albeit short of the reform that I originally described some months ago as the amendment of the “Steptoe and Son” legislation of the last millennium. That will come, we have been promised that; but in the mean time, they are leaving themselves with a hole.

In addition to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, I have two questions. First, can the Minister explain why the Government are making this exemption? Of course, you could not have expected what I have called the “Hey, Tubby the Tuba” chap with his horse and cart to maintain records and pay by cheque—of course, long before there was any plastic money in the form of cards—and that may have been perfectly reasonable. All sorts of market traders now are able to take payments with the electronic equipment that is available. There is no problem with people like that being able to pay for their products and services and so on in that way. So why are we left with an exemption for people who no longer exist in the form in which they did when the Act was originally passed?

Secondly, how many of them will there be? What is the Government’s estimate of how many are going to, as it were, pour through this loophole in an effort to maintain what has been right at the heart of this burgeoning crime of the stealing of metal of all sorts? The consequences of that crime have been described over and over again, some of them extremely serious in terms of the damage to people, the inconvenience, the cost and so on. Why are we leaving this loophole and how many people are going to be subject to this exemption?

Like the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, I have not found anybody who is concerned with this who has not been deeply disturbed by what is otherwise an entirely welcome piece of legislation, which we are very glad to see even at this fairly late stage in the passage of this Bill. Why is this loophole being left? It is going to be serious. It will increase and we will have to wait for months before we can get the new legislation in place that the Government have promised. I add my words of considerable dismay that we have this now. It may well be that there is something else that I have not understood about the exemption. If so, my noble friend on the Front Bench will no doubt tell us what it is. But at the moment there is not anybody concerned with the trade who for the life of them can see why.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, the Minister’s case last week was predicated almost exclusively on the basis that the group of people who were exempt was small in number. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, has driven a coach and horses through that argument on the basis of the research that he has done over the past few days. It is what we have repeatedly warned the Minister will happen; namely, that the trade will increase in the hands of the itinerants as against those who trade at the moment for cash in this area.

The questions that I asked last week remain unanswered. First, why do we have to wait for a five-year review? It is enshrined in legislation, is it not? Secondly, why can we not have a review, let us say, in six months? In the event that a review were to reveal that what the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, has indicated tonight is true, what mechanism in legislation exists for repealing the provisions that have been driven through Parliament tonight, at nearly midnight, in what is, once again, a late night debate?

The question in my mind is simple: what could go wrong over the next few months? We know now that the itinerant trade will increase. We also know that it is distinctly probable that thieves who steal this material will sell it to itinerant traders who will find some way to break it up, to sell it abroad or to bring it into the market in a way whereby it cannot be traced. Under the new arrangements, it will be very difficult, as we move to greater itinerant control over the market, to track illegal material, which is the very reverse of the intention of the Government in introducing this legislation. It will also move more of the trade into the hands of traders who will not be making VAT returns. They almost exist in a shadow market of people who will always trade for cash and they will always find ways of trading for cash. Nor will they ever be accountable in any way to the Inland Revenue.

The noble Lord smiles in his seat as he dismisses this case, but I think that Ministers are totally out of touch with the real world out there of people who trade in cash and how they operate, and how they simply do not exist anywhere in official records. They are the people who increasingly will take over, as the noble Lord has just suggested, this trade.

We have also not considered the knock-on consequences on traders who trade currently on the margins of legitimacy and who at least could be more effectively regulated if the right regulatory framework was to be put in place at this stage when it is clearly not being put in place. Even at this late stage of this legislation, I believe that Ministers should reconsider the position.

The noble Lord is about to get up and he will tell us all that we have got it wrong; that we do not understand how the market works; that they will be able to regulate the trade; and that these people are already covered by existing legislation. Let me tell the noble Lord that we simply do not believe him. We believe that in a matter of months, or certainly within a few years, it will become quite obvious that this legislation is failing in its intent and it will no doubt be revealed in the tabloids. Stories will surface saying that despite the legislation that was introduced, the trade is still going on. The problem is that an accelerated approach has been taken to the legislating in this area without taking into account the need to accompany this legislation with other legislation, as well as reform of other legislation, as referred to by my noble friend in his earlier contribution.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)]

My Lords, it might be useful if I intervene now because there are a number of misconceptions about what is going on. Perhaps I may say that I rather regret the words of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, for whom I have the utmost respect, because he implies that whatever I say, I am out of touch and do not know what is going on. He seems to suggest that what I say will be untrue. That is not the case. What I would ask of your Lordships is that—dare I say it?—they should listen to me very carefully because I think I can allay the fears and answer the questions that have quite rightly been put by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, and my noble friend Lord Jenkin about the problems we are facing and where we are on this issue.

I start by paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, who was the first person to suggest that we should go down the cashless route. That is what we are doing, and he was the first to spot that there was a chance to do so in this legislation. It is why we are doing that and a few more things in this Bill, but the other things will have to wait until suitable legislation comes through. There is no five-year review, as the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, puts it. We have said that we will come to the other bits as and when we can, at which point we will resolve those matters. Again, at this stage I would ask noble Lords to listen to me very carefully as I explain what we are going to do.

Your Lordships will be aware that we tabled amendments on Report proposing three legislative measures to tackle metal theft: greater fines for offences under the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964; creating an offence of buying scrap metal for cash, and a revision of police entry powers to help enforce the new offence because it is important to make sure that we get the enforcement right. A similar amendment to the one we are dealing with tonight was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, but his revised amendment seeks to remove the existing exemption that allows certain itinerant collectors to be exempted from the cashless offence. I am going to deal with that in due course.

I should make it clear that anyone who trades in metal, whether they are a large multinational, the local scrap metal dealer or a door-to-door collector, which includes the itinerants, must register with their local authority under Section 1 of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964. It might be that they do not register, in which case there are sanctions, but it is also why we are increasing the sanctions under an Act which I have said before is past its sell-by date. Failure to register is a criminal offence that under Clause 146 of this Bill will now be punishable by an unlimited fine. Anyone, be they an itinerant or a large multinational, who does not register can be punished with an unlimited fine. As part of its focus, the national metal theft task force, which we announced late last year, will ensure compliance with the registration requirement. I shall say a little more about enforcement later.

The police are currently able to enter and inspect any commercial premises that belong to a registered scrap metal dealer, including those used by itinerant collectors. Our amendment will ensure that they can also enter and search unregistered premises with a warrant if they have reasonable grounds to suspect that metal is being traded for cash, and being unregistered may well be relevant evidence in that regard, although obviously that is for magistrates to decide when they issue a warrant.

I do not suppose any of your Lordships who are in the Chamber did so, but when we debated the 1964 Act almost 50 years ago, Parliament chose not to overburden small businesses by including an exemption for door-to-door collectors from some bookkeeping. That is why the exemption was brought forward in that Act. As a result, in addition to the mandatory registration I have already mentioned, businesses can apply to their local authority for an order under Section 3(1) of the 1964 Act, to which my noble friend Lord Jenkin referred. That order would be granted by the local authority, but only in consultation with the chief officer of police for the police force area. Let me be clear: there is no blanket exemption for anyone who simply claims to be an itinerant collector. They have to be registered under Section 1 of the 1964 Act and they then have to get the exemption under Section 3(1) of the same Act, which has to be agreed by the local authority in agreement with the police.

The amendment that we have put forward follows the structure of the existing Act and the exemption is for a defined and locally known group of collectors to operate. So, if an itinerant was operating in a large number of different areas, he would need a Section 3(1) exemption from each local authority area in which he was operating. It is not a question of having one exemption and then being able to use that throughout the country. If he does not have that, he will be in breach of the law and could suffer the consequences.

It should also be noted that itinerant collectors who have obtained a Section 3(1) order are reliant, obviously, on selling their collected metal into the scrap metal industry. I appreciate that there are allegations that a lot of this metal goes into containers and is shipped abroad. We have no evidence of that—it does not appear to be happening—but if in the future we do see signs of metal going straight into containers and being shipped abroad, it will be easier to deal with because there are a limited number of container ports in the country compared to the vast number of scrap metal yards into which the metal is going at the moment.

On enforcement as we are seeing it on a day-to-day basis, the British Transport Police, as part of Operation Tornado—which is an operation into scrap metal theft in the north-east of England at the moment but which will be expanded in due course—encounter these collectors on a daily basis. On many occasions, the police find that they are unregistered and that they do not have a waste carrier’s licence, which they need if they wish to transport waste. As a result, they have had their scrap and, if it is not insured to carry waste or has not been registered to carry waste with the environment agencies, their vehicle confiscated. So there are enforcement procedures in place.

Registered collectors who have a reduced record-keeping requirement under Section 3(1) will, as I have said, still have to trade into the scrap metal industry. When they do so, they will not receive cash—they cannot receive cash—and that is what our amendment does.

So, to make it clear, Section 3(1) reduces the record-keeping requirements for those who only collect metal, but this is in addition to them also being registered under Section 1. It is not about signing up for one or the other, as some people imply, nor is it a matter of choice for the individual itinerant collector just to announce that he is now an itinerant collector. If he wants to be an itinerant collector he must be registered under Section 1 and under Section 3(1).

If the noble Lord’s amendment was to be successful and itinerant collectors with a Section 3(1) order are included, the offence of trading in cash would be more difficult to enforce for those individuals because of the nature of the work they do in travelling from street to street in the manner described by my noble friend.

To evidence compliance with the new cashless offence, we have strengthened the record-keeping requirements under Section 2 of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act which apply to the vast majority of the industry registered under the Act. We require that records are kept of who the payments are made to and the method of payment, and that receipts are copied and retained. The few collectors with a Section 3(1) order will not be required to keep those records. I cannot give a precise figure on the number of Section 3(1) itinerant dealers—that would mean going to every local authority in the country—but, of necessity, that figure will be relatively few. As I have made clear, they will have to be agreed to by the local authority with the agreement of the local chief of police.

To reassure the House further—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Will the noble Lord give way?

[Lord Henley]

No, I am not giving way to the noble Lord. It is entirely a matter for me to decide whether I give way to him.

To reassure the House further on this point, the Home Office is willing to work with the Local Government Association, with local authorities and with the police through ACPO, to help them provide advice to their members about the levels of assurance required in terms of identity, residence and any relevant criminal convictions before Section 3(1) orders are issued. That will ensure that they are operated in as tight a manner as possible.

I want to make clear—as I hope I did at Report—that banning cash from the scrap-metal industry is a vital first step to tackle metal theft and remove the drivers behind it. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, is with me on that. However, it is part of a wider package of work to tackle metal theft, including better enforcement and seeking design solutions to make metal harder to steal and increase the possibility of it being traced.

I will say a little again about enforcement. As I have said, we have strengthened that with the dedicated metal theft task force. We have already seen very significant progress, not least in the north-east, where there is quite a large amount of metal theft. Since the launch of Operation Tornado at the start of the year in the three northern police forces—Northumbria, Cleveland and Durham—we have seen a 50 per cent decline in the amount of metal theft in that area. That is driven by the voluntary adoption by the scrap-metal industry—or at least a considerable part of it—of greater identification checks when purchasing metal. We did not get the agreement of all of them but we are getting a considerable amount; and with this legislation we will get considerably more. I am also pleased to let the House know that the Association of Chief Police Officers is rolling out Operation Tornado nationwide over the coming months. As I have said, that operation has seen a 50 per cent decline in theft.

This is not the loophole that some noble Lords believe it is. We are not proposing a blanket exemption, but are allowing a very small number of specifically registered itinerant collectors to continue to operate as they currently do. I close by letting—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The noble Lord talks about the “very small number” of itinerant collectors, which was at the heart of the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding. If there are so few in each local authority, why could a departmental official not have contacted each local authority and asked them whether it is two, three or half a dozen? That would not have taken huge resources at the department, particularly when it was at the very heart of the defence of the legislation being used by the Minister at the Dispatch Box, both last week and this week.

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord will have seen many questions over the years coming back to him with the reply that they cannot be answered without disproportionate cost. I will look very carefully at what he has had to say but, looking at the regulations involved in those itinerants first registering under Section 1 and then getting the exemption under Section 3(1), it was not thought necessary to write to all 400 and whatever local authorities. I will have a look at whether it is possible but I do not think it is necessary. I want to—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords—

[Lord Henley]

Perhaps the noble Lord could just calm down a bit. It is late at night and we are trying to answer this problem in an appropriate manner.

I want to end by reiterating that we are committed to reviewing the Scrap Metal Dealers Act as soon as parliamentary time allows. That is why I dismissed the idea that it could not be done in less than five years. When we do so, we will be looking very hard at the role and regulation of scrap-metal dealers and itinerant collectors. I want to repeat the point that all noble Lords ought to grasp. It is not true that itinerant collectors can come by their own whim—they must go through a local authority inspection process and one that requires the approval of the local police. That is the important matter.

I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, will accept that the clarification I have given has dealt with the various questions he put to me and that he will be content to withdraw his amendment.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 20th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)]

It might be useful if I intervene at this stage. In doing so, I want to make it quite clear that I hope other noble Lords will intervene after me despite the fact that this is Report. This is purely because I have amendments in this group and it might speed up the process by which we debate these matters.

I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, for all that he has done. We have listened to him and, as he knows, we have responded as much as we can in due course. I also want to make it quite clear that we in the Government recognise what a serious problem it is. I cannot list in detail the individual Peers, Members of the Commons and others who have been to see me. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London was the first to come and see me to highlight the problem relating to the churches. Obviously, this problem goes beyond the churches and beyond art theft; we all know about that Barbara Hepworth that was stolen recently. This affects communities and businesses throughout the country. We have seen damage to our infrastructure, to the railways, to communications and so on again and again and that damage is very great indeed. The noble Lord quite rightly cited an estimate of some £700 million. That is probably the effect on business and the community as a whole. What is depressing is how little money it actually brings in to the thieves themselves. The Barbara Hepworth that I mentioned, insured for £500,000 or £1 million or whatever, will have gone to some scrap-metal yard and been ground down and sold off for literally a matter of a few pounds. The real problem arises in the scrap-metal yards in that whoever was the first person to receive that—the first fence as it were—must have known that property was as hot as you can get because you do not often get Barbara Hepworths being brought in; they are not something you happen to find on the side of the road. So that is the problem and that is why the Government believe they should take urgent action.

That action can be taken in a number of different ways. The first and most important one is enforcement. The Government have made it quite clear that we want to address enforcement. My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced late last year that there was an extra £5 million of funding for a new dedicated metal theft task force. The British Transport Police has taken the lead and is doing a great deal of work on this. In certain parts of the country we have seen great improvements in enforcement. I recently visited the north-east and saw what it was doing in terms of Operation Tornado, improving enforcement and increasing the number of arrests and cash seizures from the scrap-metal industry. That is happening throughout the country. Enforcement is one strand of what we must do and there are other things that we can do in terms of design and hardening objects so that they are less easily stealable or more traceable. However, we have concluded that legislation of one form or another is the only sustainable long-term solution to the growing menace of metal theft. That is why we have put down these amendments. They are similar to the amendments the noble Lord has put down but I have to say, as I always would, I think the government amendments are superior to his and I hope he will accept them in due course.

I want to keep my remarks brief, but will explain that the new amendments create a new criminal offence to prohibit cash payments to purchase scrap metals. We believe that at the moment it is just too easy for someone having stolen something to convert that something into cash, no questions asked. They also significantly increase the fines that are available for the majority of the offences under the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964, which regulates the scrap-metal-dealing industry. That is important. It only goes some way because, as I have said on a number of occasions, we believe that the Scrap Metal Dealers Act is not now fit for purpose but that it is worth at least upgrading the offences under that Act. But one should always remember that under the old Theft Act 1968 there is an offence of seven years for theft and more importantly, as I said earlier, under handling we have some 14 years available.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The story in the Commons is that the Government are saying that that subsequent legislation will be brought in under the Private Member’s Bill procedure in the House of Commons. Is that true?

--- Later in debate ---

[The Lord Bishop of London]

My Lords, I am very grateful indeed for the way in which the Minister, in particular, and the Government have responded to the difficulties that have been raised. I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, for his speech. I want to make one very simple point, as the hour is rather late. I seem to remember that Steptoe and Son was an itinerant operation that operated from a scrap-metal yard. Surely there is not a cordon sanitaire between the scrap-metal operation and the itinerant collector. Is it really the case that the only people that the Minister describes as having received these licences are people unconnected with scrap-metal yards? It seems a rather bizarre idea, which is why I am tempted to support the further amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The House is indebted to my noble friend Lord Faulkner of Worcester for tabling this amendment because it raises an issue that we should not be discussing at nearly midnight in an empty House of Lords. It should have been debated at prime time, as it is a central part of the legislation. The Minister referred to a sustainable long-term solution and then to the need for further legislation. If the Private Members’ Bill procedure is used in the House of Commons—I am told that the idea is that it will be used because of the shortage of time in the next Session due to the need to push through the House of Lords reform Bill—it is distinctly probable that, unless the Government give it government time, the Bill will fall. Those of us who have been in the Commons know that most Private Members’ Bills in the House of Commons fall. There is simply an objection to block them on the Friday when they are being considered. We need something far more substantial than simply a vague reference to further legislation being considered in the future. We need a consolidated piece of legislation, which brings the Vehicles (Crime) Act 2001, the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964, the Motor Salvage Operators Regulations, this Bill dealing with cashless arrangements and a properly enforceable regulatory system together in a single piece of legislation. I believe that the way the Government are proceeding today is the wrong way.

I wish to quote from a question and answer session that took place in the House of Commons yesterday, as the Minister’s reply let the cat out of the bag. Graham Jones, the MP for Hyndburn, asked:

“Does the Minister not recognise that the public may be shocked that a cashless scheme might not be cashless under the Home Secretary’s proposals, which exclude mobile collectors? If they are exempt, that will create a huge loophole in the system. … Is the exemption not a giant loophole and an own goal?”.

James Brokenshire, on behalf of the Government, said:

“The … answer is no. Those involved in door-to-door sales will need to trade their product through scrap metal dealers, so they will be subject to the Bill’s provisions”.—[Official Report, Commons, 19/3/12; col. 506.]

What does that mean in reality? A thief may go into wherever, steal a war memorial, break it up, contact an itinerant trader and sell it for cash to the itinerant trader, as I can see nothing in this legislation that stops him selling it for cash. The itinerant trader either then boxes it up and sends it abroad or destroys the markings which show the origins of the material. Then he goes into the legitimate system by selling it to a registered trader. In other words, in those conditions the Government’s objective to stop cashless trading where it affects war memorials, rolls of copper from railway lines or whatever, will not be met at all because the trade will simply switch into an itinerant Traveller trade. At least at the moment that trade is going into an area of the market which perhaps is acting illegally in parts but which should under the new arrangements be subject to a cashless system. Therefore, as I say, the Government’s objective will not be met.

The noble Lord says that under Section 3(1)(a) of the 1964 Act there is an element of control over these itinerant traders. However, we know that they have no phone lines. They probably use pay-as-you-go mobiles. They rarely have an address. They invariably have no fixed abode. They also claim that they have no bank accounts. They are capable of exporting abroad because they have networks. The noble Baroness, Lady Browning, referred to the networks that are run by criminals. They can send the material to Scotland, which I understand is not introducing this legislation, although I am sure the Minister will correct me if I am wrong about that. This whole business will switch from a legitimate area—it is legitimate in the sense that we could potentially control the movement of these items which have been taken illegally—into an illegitimate area of trade run by itinerant Travellers, who will not in any way be subject to any legislation because, as far as they and the authorities are concerned, it is unenforceable. Therefore, why do we not simply delay the legislation and introduce a proper piece of legislation which requires a more proportionate system of regulation and which deals more effectively with the problem?

The other day someone asked me over the phone how you measure the material going into these yards. Often, someone sends out a skip, the material is put in the skip and they do not know when they are collecting it and paying for it how much of what is in the skip comprises metal. Who will be responsible for dividing it up when, at the end of a year, the authorities come in—or perhaps come in—and carry out some kind of audit to ensure that all the metal has been paid for by way of a cheque or a legitimate means of payment? The question of separation of materials by scrapyards is something that the Government should deal with.

We are told that at the end of five years this matter will be reviewed. Why are we waiting five years? The industry says that it will not work. The Minister has been told repeatedly by the industry that, although it wants a cashless system, it believes that the way in which the Government are introducing it, without dealing with the wider problems of regulation, will inevitably lead to problems and that the system will fail. If this measure is to go through tonight and return to the Commons, surely even at this late stage Ministers might have a rethink. The industry does not object to the principle of a cashless system, in the way that my noble friend has suggested, but it objects to the fact that there is a loophole which will build a new industry in the hands of itinerant Travellers, who will relish the thought that they will be able to make money now that others have been restricted and regulated and that they will be subject to no proper regulation whatever.

[Lord Roberts of Conwy]

My Lords, I am as appalled and as horrified as anyone at the heartless, dangerous and very costly spate of metal thieving that we have suffered in recent years. There is nothing new in the offence as such. I remember the theft of a bronze head of Gladstone from a very public spot in Penmaenmawr in my erstwhile parliamentary constituency in the 1980s, where the great man used to bathe in the sea. Despite all my efforts, the bust was never found. Of course, it was an isolated incident, not part of an intense extensive campaign of metal thieving of the kind that we have experienced in recent times.

I wholeheartedly support the special efforts that are being made by the authorities, and especially by the task force led by the British Transport Police, to gain intelligence and arrest the perpetrators of these dastardly crimes. However, the amendments that we are discussing do not fall directly into this category. They are directed at the potential receivers of stolen metal. I stress the word “potential” because I am not at all convinced that the bulk of stolen metal is disposed of through the numerous scrap-metal dealers, many of whom are properly registered with local authorities and keep proper books of receipts and disposals according to the provisions of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964.

Yet these scrap-metal dealers are the main targets of the amendment. Although they can be visited by the police and other authorities at any time, their relationship with the authorities is usually strongly co-operative, if only because the scrapyards themselves are often the target of metal thieves. The real culprits are more likely to be found among the unregistered dealers and operators. They are far more likely to be the receivers of stolen scrap metal, along with the so-called itinerants whom we have talked about already this evening. Not all are as innocuous as Steptoe & Son, who curiously enjoyed special exemption under the 1964 Act. Such people cannot be inspected by the police without a warrant. Their position is still somewhat ambiguous and confusing under the government amendment because, as I read it, they can still maintain a scrapyard and be exempt from the no-cash deal restriction.

We heard an explanation from the noble Lord when I intervened, but I am not at all clear how an itinerant collector of scrap can end up with no cash at the end of his deal when he gets back to the yard, which is presumably his own yard or that of his partner. Of course, to be effective, the provisions of the 1964 Act require close supervision, and that has been missing in many local authorities in the past. I suggest that that is quite a different matter from suppressing the scrap metal crime wave that demands our attention at present.

I suspect that the prohibition of cash transactions has more to do with the Revenue than the theft issue. I would be glad if the Minister could enlighten us further on that cashless requirement. If the Revenue is concerned about VAT, I am told that dealers in the Republic of Ireland collect the tax for the Government and that the system works satisfactorily. In this context, we tend to forget the social benefit of scrapyards in disposing of metal waste from residential and other properties. We are glad to see defunct materials taken away from our premises. The fact that the plumber or the electrician gets some money for the old cast iron cistern or old lead piping does not bother us individually. We are glad to be rid of it in registered scrapyards. The majority of these transactions involve comparatively small sums, and there is an argument for allowing de minimis cash transactions of this kind, which I hope the Government will consider. They are the bread and butter income of many small scrapyards, which may have to discontinue trading if they are subjected to cashless trading that may drive customers—sellers—away to unlicensed traders.

The cashless trading requirement must be a unique prohibition in this country. I can think of no other trading activity where the use of cash is banned. I have concentrated on the typical registered scrapyard, which is unfairly and indiscriminately targeted by the cashless proposal favoured by the Government and by the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner. However, many of them are collectors and contributors to the success of the 300 or so members of the British Metal Recycling Association, who are the major players in the green manufacturing business, recovering some 13 million tonnes of metal from 2 million cars, 5 billion food and drink cans and so on to sell back to metal producers. They contribute £6 billion to the UK economy and generate exports of about £3.6 billion.

The BMRA appears to be reconciled to the cashless proposal but wants a better definition of scrap-metal dealers as such and a clampdown on the unlicensed operators. It also wants clarification of cash allocations to ensure the better identification of sellers. It has a great deal of that in the amendment. All this seems eminently sensible, and the Government have certainly gone some way to meet its demands. The outstanding issue is the unlicensed scrap dealer in unlicensed premises and, of course, the metal thieves themselves.

On the review of the offence of buying scrap metal for cash, five years is a long time to wait before it takes place. It should be done after a shorter period of, say, three years, which I am sure would provide ample data.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, perhaps I may sum up the debate and address some of the points. Earlier I paid tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, for all that he had done on the matter. I also pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Browning, who was the Minister who dealt with this before me. Only a few days before she unfortunately resigned and I moved to the Home Office, she summoned me and a host of other Ministers to the Home Office to discuss what we could do government-wide to address the problem. As a Defra Minister with a considerable interest in recycling and associated matters, I went along and said that it was possible that we might be able to do something through the Environment Agency. Soon after I left the meeting, my noble friend moved on and I found myself moving to the Home Office and in effect writing a letter from myself to myself to try to address these problems.

I am grateful for all that my noble friend did, and for the fact that she has now underlined some of the other problems that are beginning to appear in this matter. She referred to the problems with rare earths. I was recently in the north-west at a meeting dealing with truck theft. Truck theft is obviously very serious in terms of trucks and their contents being stolen, but certain bits of the trucks are also stolen to get the rare earths from, such as silencers, which can be of considerable value and whose theft can cause enormous problems.

I pay tribute to everything that my noble friend has done to highlight these problems. Similarly, I pay tribute to what the right reverend Prelate had to say and thank him for coming to see me to highlight the serious problems that the church is facing, particularly with the theft of lead roofs and with getting insurance on a great many church properties because of what is going on.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, asked me to comment on House of Lords reform. At this time of night, that is beyond my pay grade and I am not going to deal with it, but no doubt we will have further opportunities to discuss it in due course. He talked about the need for consolidated reform. I agree with him; I would like that in due course. I have made it clear that what we are doing at this stage is bringing forward the first stage of a package to get coherent reform in this area. It would not be right to delay the first few steps of that, as the noble Lord is suggesting, purely because we cannot get on to the other bits; we will get to those other bits in due course.

The noble Lord also said that the industry says that this will not work. Like the noble Lord, I have talked to the industry. I have addressed the BMRA; I have been to its annual parliamentary reception. The BMRA has made it quite clear to me that it welcomes virtually every aspect of reform. The only aspect that it is not terribly keen on is getting rid of cash. As someone else once said, “They would say that, wouldn’t they?”. I happen to think, as do most people in this House, that getting rid of cash from these transactions is a very useful thing to do and something that we ought to address.

The noble Lord made two other points that ought to be addressed. He asked about itinerants. I made it quite clear in my opening remarks that only itinerant collectors who are subject to an order under Section 3(1) of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act from their local authority, approved by the local chief officer of police, will be exempted. If they are also a scrap dealer and they have a yard, they will no longer fall within that definition of being an itinerant trader and therefore they will not be exempt. We are only talking about a very small number of people, who will be covered by the regulations that are in place at the moment. They are regulated.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The Minister seeks to reassure us, but what happens if over the next few years there is a noticeable shift in favour of itinerant collectors and the illegal trade? Will the Government come back to amend the legislation or will they review it?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, we have made it quite clear that we are going to review it. We are going to keep this under control. The noble Lord is forgetting how few of these itinerant traders there are. They are not the people with the yards; they are people who are already regulated. The minute they have a yard they cease to qualify as an itinerant trader. It is as simple as that.

Legal Aid: Social Welfare Law

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 5th March 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked By

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what arrangements they are making to ensure that there are adequate numbers of police to deal with any consequences for social cohesion and criminality of the withdrawal of civil legal aid for social welfare law cases.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, it is incumbent on government to consider all eventualities when conducting risk assessments. Recognising risks does not mean that they will materialise. We are confident that the police will continue to have the resources and the numbers to carry out their responsibilities.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords: Toxteth, July 1981; Brixton, September 1985; Tottenham, August 2011—have they not all got one thing in common? They all followed severe cuts in family welfare support systems for the most impoverished in society. Have the Government really thought through the consequences of their actions in denying people justice and making people angry?

[Lord McNally]

I do not believe that the Government are denying people justice. As to the exact correlation to which the noble Lord refers, there will always be studies on these matters, and I am not going to predict whether we have seen the last of social disturbances—it would be very foolish to do so. His Question is about whether there are adequate numbers of police, and in my Answer I have explained that we will continue to have the resources and the number to carry out our responsibilities.

Business of the House

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 16th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

The noble Lord is right that it is usually good to synchronise the dates. However, I am informed that they were announced last October and that there were no objections in either House. As the noble Lord put down a Written Question, I am sure that a considered Written Answer from a higher grade than mine will give him the explanation.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Was the director of facilities not consulted before the decision was taken? Surely he works to a budget and should know—and should have been asked—whether this was an efficient use of resources.

Elections: Registration

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

That is an interesting point. If I may return to the central point of the question, yes, doorstep canvassing plays a vital role in ensuring that registers are complete and accurate. That is why in both 2014 and 2015 door-to-door canvassers will be used by electoral registration officers to ask people to register to vote.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords—

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

This side!

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, last Wednesday the Minister denied that there had been a collapse in electoral registration in Northern Ireland when this system was introduced. Can I change the word from “collapse” to “fall”? Was there a fall, and by what percentage?

[Lord McNally]

There was a fall—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Ah!

[Lord McNally]

It is of no use for the noble Lord to say “Ah!” as if he has found out something wonderful and unknown. I admitted that there had been a fall—yes I did—and what I went on to say is that both we and the Northern Irish had learnt lessons from that exercise and the mistakes made. I went on to say—and I hope my noble friend behind me has an opportunity to say this—that we all used to make the “Vote early, vote often” jokes about Northern Ireland, but people are now going across to Northern Ireland to study their success in getting people on the voting register. That is to their credit and is something that we are trying to learn from.

Elections: Registration

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

Unlike in Australia, not wishing to vote remains an inalienable right of the British people. Registering is a civic duty and we hope that it will increasingly be seen as such. I certainly hope that over the next few years all the political parties will embrace the idea of an individual register and use their influence to ensure that people exercise their right. Of course, once people are on the register they will retain their right not to vote.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, on the question of shroud-waving, will the noble Lord explain to us why, when this stupid system was introduced in Northern Ireland, the registration of voters totally collapsed? Why did that happen?

[Lord McNally]

Perhaps someone from Northern Ireland will intervene, but, again, the language is not borne out by the facts. It did not totally collapse. In this gradual process that we are bringing forward, we are learning from the examples and lessons of the Northern Ireland experience, as well as looking at some of the practices that are going on there now. Northern Ireland votes are a standard joke but we are now learning lessons about voluntary registration and its success in Northern Ireland.

Crime: Rape

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I am very grateful for those comments. The Labour Benches and the Labour leader must make their own minds up whether that intervention was opportune. All I know is that this Government and this Secretary of State have put rape support centres on a secure financial footing for the first time, with £10.5 million of grant funding allocated to existing centres across the country over the next three years. Up to £600,000 is also being provided to develop four new rape support centres. We have run a grant-funding programme to award the voluntary community and social enterprise sector up to £30 million in grant funding over three years. We have guaranteed funding of up to £2 million a year for the next three years to fund specialist support for adult victims of human trafficking. We have provided Victim Support with £114 million in grants spreading over the next three years. That is the action that this Government have taken on rape: standing by women, supporting them and giving them the support they need. Everybody realises it is an extremely traumatic experience.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, would it not be quite wrong for the Government to duck legislating in the area of rape, given the problem we had this last week? In particular, the argument over whether men should have anonymity in rape cases remains outstanding, as does the question of whether women who make false allegations should enjoy the anonymity that they currently enjoy.

[Lord McNally]

I know that the noble Lord has raised these matters on a number of occasions. The Government’s sentencing and legal aid Bill will shortly come before the House—or, rather, before Parliament, as it will go to the Commons first—and it will give us a chance to consider again the issues that he has raised consistently. However, his assertion that there are large numbers of false claims for rape is not, as far as I am concerned, borne out by research.

Elections: Alternative Vote System

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Will the Minister confirm that the Scottish Government have introduced an electronic counting system for local government elections in Scotland, at a cost of £5 million next year—the contract has gone to a firm called Logica, which will be counting votes under STV and AV in by-elections—and that there is an electronic counting system operating in the London mayoral elections under SV, which is again a variation on the AV system? Is not electronic counting effectively inevitable in the end?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, whether it is inevitable in the end I simply do not know. As to the other information that the noble Lord imparted to the House, I am sure that it will, as ever, be accurate.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

More and more, the noble and learned Lord reassures me that he was in the MoJ and not the Treasury. I accept that.

I should also like to associate myself with the comments about the quality of newcomers. I really think that the new intake has established itself with authority and that it adds to the strength of the House. As to my own credentials for replying to this debate, before the 1997 election, I was on the Cook-Maclennan committee—the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party—which discussed reform of this place. Indeed, at one stage in that committee we considered the concept of a great reform Act that would tie all the constitutional reforms into one great Bill. However, we backed off doing that due to the complexity of such a measure.

I should point out right at the beginning that, interestingly, throughout our history there has never been an interdependence in terms of reforming the two Houses. The oft-quoted 1832 Bill was a reform of the House of Commons; it did not touch the House of Lords. The 1911 Bill was a reform of the House of Lords—it did not touch the House of Commons—as was the 1999 Act introduced by the previous Labour Government. Therefore, there is no interdependence in this regard.

I put forward another thought in this interesting debate in relation to the Wakeham commission. I now freely admit that I think we missed an enormous opportunity in not accepting the Wakeham commission’s report. At that time I was a “big bang” reformer who thought that reform could be introduced quickly. I remember saying to the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, that I could not believe that the Labour Government, given the majority that they had, would leave Lords reform on the shelf. I also said, “Wakeham is too timid. Let us wait and they will come forward with a real ‘big bang’ reform”—little did I know. However, as I have said before, there is a lot in the Wakeham report that could be revisited when we consider Lords reform. I also believe that the Steel Bill constituted a missed opportunity on the part of the previous Government. They could have accepted it and it would have been a major step forward.

However, that is in the past. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, asked how we could justify enlarging the House of Lords while reducing the size of the other place. The only frank answer to that is, “with great difficulty”. It contrasts with what we are doing in this Bill. However, as I have said, the reason for that in part is the skill with which this House has deflected reform. We are left with a situation where it is difficult, if not impossible, for Peers to resign. We have always had to face the problem that without the ability to resign, and with Peers sitting for life, the composition of this place would be adjusted when Governments changed, and that there would always be a ratcheting upwards unless we addressed more fundamental reform.

However, the illogicality—or the lack of kilter—in what is happening should not be judged as a snapshot but, as I have said before, as part of a moving picture of dynamic reform by the Government, who will bring forward measures. As I explained, the Deputy Prime Minister is chairing a cross-party committee and one of the key issues that it is discussing is the size of the reformed Chamber. We are working to publish a draft Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny early this year.

I understand the variety of views that have been expressed. As one who wants a reform that works, I hope that the pre-legislative scrutiny committee drawn from both Houses will be broad based and will give all sides the chance to put forward their ideas and fears. I am not sure that I have ever accepted the fears about gridlock. Many countries in the world have two elected chambers and manage to work out relationships. I know that many books have been written about the dangers of gridlock developing in the United States and elsewhere but it is possible to work it out. I foresee developments emerging such as a business committee of both Houses which would do that. As I said, I sat on the Cunningham committee. I have always taken the view—the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, and I have debated this—that the relationship between the two Houses and our conventions would hold and would be tested by the two Houses, as they have always been. Therefore, these fears of doom and gloom are much exaggerated.

The Government believe that more can be done to allow Members of this House to leave permanently so that the size of the House can be reduced. The Leaders Group on Members leaving the House, chaired by my noble friend Lord Hunt of Wirral, published its report on 13 January. The Leader of the House has asked the Procedure Committee to come forward with proposals to put these recommendations into effect. I do not think that I would breach any secrets of the Procedure Committee on which my noble friend and I sit by saying that these proposals are on the agenda for our next meeting.

There is a Bill before the other place that seeks to limit the size of this House. The Parliament (Amendment) Bill was introduced by Mr Christopher Chope on 26 October 2010. Although the text of the Bill has not been published, it is clear from its Long Title that it will deal with the number of Peers. The size of this House is an important issue. But determining the size of the other place and this House do not have to be connected to one another in legislation. As I pointed out, they never have been in our history. The Bill aims to deliver concrete improvements to our electoral system as we find it today. Noble Lords will have ample—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Will the Minister give us an assurance that the Government will give the Chope Bill time on the Floor of the House?

[Lord McNally]

As such an experienced parliamentarian, the noble Lord knows darn well that I could not possibly give him that guarantee—but that is exactly why he asked that question. Noble Lords will have ample opportunity to discuss this House and all other matters relating to it when the Government's proposals for reforming your Lordships' House are published. As I said, I have great interest in some of these issues and would like to see them pushed forward with a real sense of urgency. In the mean time, I urge my noble friend Lord Forsyth to withdraw the amendment.

Constitutional Reform: Referendums

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 24th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

It certainly would be if that were ever to happen in the future.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Does the noble Lord accept that a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons is a constitutional issue?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, that is a matter of judgment. I do not know whether this is a trick question. As to whether, if there is a change in the voting system, our constitution will reflect that, that is a matter of the obvious.