Brexit: Movement of Goods between Northern Ireland and Great Britain

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

These are not customs controls; they are administrative checks that need to be made because of single market rules and single market membership. They are the result of international obligations that the EU implements through single market rules. However, my noble friend makes an important point.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, every individual consignment from an individual supplier on the UK mainland to every individual customer in Northern Ireland would, under the proposed scheme, be the subject of an individual customs entry, so 100 separate Northern Ireland deliveries from a UK-mainland supplier could be the subject of 100 separate customs entries, possibly under different tariff headings. How else can you control fraud?

[Lord Callanan]

I do not believe the noble Lord is correct about that. On the details of implementation and exactly how the arrangements will be implemented on the ground in practice, we want to work through the joint committee with the EU, Northern Irish and Irish authorities to make sure that implementation is as smooth and frictionless as possible.

Brexit

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 21st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I said that we will publish an impact assessment. As I said in response to an earlier question, it is difficult to model the precise economic impact, bearing in mind how difficult it has been to model economic impacts over a number of years anyway. That is because so much of this depends on the future relationship in the political declaration. The withdrawal agreement Bill itself discusses those areas we have talked about previously, including citizens’ rights, money, the implementation period and the Northern Ireland protocol. The big economic impacts will of course be in the details of the free trade arrangements.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, on the question of business management, is it true that we will be asked to sit on Saturday and Sunday?

[Lord Callanan]

These are of course matters that the usual channels will wish to discuss.

Brexit: Free Trade Agreement

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 14th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I understand that he is exploring possible changes to the political declaration.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

If what the Minister has just said is true, what is Olly Robbins doing in Brussels today?

[Lord Callanan]

I understood that I had just answered that question.

Brexit: Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Wednesday 9th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, this is my 12th intervention in the Brexit debate and since the day of the referendum I have argued a consistent case in this Chamber. I was on the doorstep and worked for Common Market entry in the 1970s campaign. I have supported the institutional changes brought about through the various treaty revisions, and then in 2016, as a remainer, I voted leave, taking a lot of flak from colleagues.

I suspect that millions of other European Union supporters did exactly the same, their primary reason being developments in Europe following the migration crisis and fear of its impact on the United Kingdom. The polling data, almost without exception, for the six-month period prior to the referendum indicated that concerns over border controls, free movement, ID and entitlements were at the heart of the leave vote. The people had lost confidence in our systems for monitoring and managing population movements. These population movements, without doubt, have given real lift and impetus to the development of intolerant and sometimes extreme movements throughout Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals—in particular, in Austria, Sweden, Germany, Italy, Denmark, France, Holland, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Latvia, Hungary, Greece, Estonia, Poland and Bulgaria—all potentially dangerous movements in their infancy, and we ignore them at our peril.

Cameron, realising the dangers, tried his best to dilute concerns at home by negotiating a deal with the European Union in early 2016. He failed because our European partners did not want to know. It was that failure that led me, with liberal views on immigration, to vote leave, and I believe that millions of others responded in exactly the same way and did likewise.

My hope has been and remains that the UK leave vote will, in this period of brinkmanship, trigger a discussion on a review of trans-European migration issues and Schengen, not only in Brussels but throughout the Union. We are told that this community pillar is not up for negotiation. I do not believe that. The Visegrad states, many of which are on the front line in the migration crisis, are facing ugly developments at home. Germany’s Government are destabilised. The magic of Macron has evaporated as he faces not only street demonstrations but, we now learn, a war of words with the Cinque Stelle movement in Italy over its support for his demonstrating opponents.

Former Prime Minister Blair has let it be known that he believes there is potential for flexibility over policies on managed migration and that Europe would respond positively. Even former Liberal Democrat leader Clegg has stated that he believes the door is open for further discussion. The former president of the Federation of German Industries, Hans-Olaf Henkel, has entered the fray with his bold statements supporting a special deal on free movement for the United Kingdom. I suspect he has a wider free movement and Schengen reform agenda in mind for other European states.

So how should we now proceed? I believe we should drop all this nonsense on the backstop, Canada-plus, Canada-plus-plus, Norway, WTO terms et al and concentrate on this one issue at the heart of the leave vote which is winding up the British people. We should go into Europe, build a support base with individual nation states—it is still possible even at this late stage—and push the Commission for a new deal on managed migration; our recently published White Paper is a good starting point.

Initially, our focus should be on an EU/UK deal; in the longer term, something wider. I believe we can secure that deal, which should be the basis for a referendum. The choice would be: remain, on the basis of a managed-migration deal which I would support, or leave on the basis of the May deal. Without that deal, a second referendum victory for remain is more problematic; I would even foresee another referendum later this year.

Brexit: Preparedness for EU Exit

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 25th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

We are putting in place the responses necessary in case of no deal. We have decided to prioritise safety and security, the flow of people and goods and then compliance activity, including the collection of revenue in the short term. Contingency plans are being prepared with the aim of managing all the potential issues, such as queues of traffic in Kent and continuing supplies of essential goods and medicines.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Is not the reality that with up to 500 box trailers per hour going through Dover alone—2.5 million last year—port clearance at Dover is now utterly impossible in the event that we proceed? The only answer now is inland or destination clearance. Are we actually ready for that? To avoid fraud, all inland clearance transportation would have to be customs sealed, as under the old TIR system, while travelling to destinations within the United Kingdom. Have the Government thought through the implications of that, because that is what will have to happen if we are to avoid fraud?

[Lord Callanan]

We are looking at all of the potential implications. We are discussing with partners such as ports and ferry operators all the potential implications of no deal. We continue to negotiate to get a deal—that is what we want—but we are putting in place the appropriate contingency plans, operations and processes in case of no deal, as are other European countries, because that is the responsible thing to do.

Brexit: No Deal

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Tuesday 11th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

We are not advising anyone to stockpile food. I think that the noble Baroness has misconstrued the situation. At the risk of repeating myself, we are negotiating hard for a deal. We expect a deal and we want a deal, but as a responsible Government, we need to prepare for the possibility of a no-deal scenario; namely, either that we cannot reach a deal with the European Union or, alternatively, that Parliament rejects the deal we have negotiated. That is the responsible thing to do. The Liberal Democrats may wish to bury their heads in the sand, but we are taking action to ensure that we are well prepared.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, how does the Minister interpret the comments of Monsieur Barnier yesterday?

[Lord Callanan]

I interpret them in the same way that I interpret all comments made by Michel Barnier. Of course his comments of yesterday are welcome, but they need to be followed up with action. We have produced a proposal in the form of the Chequers proposal. We have set it out in a White Paper and we have transmitted it to our European partners. We are actively talking to other European Governments about it. We have compromised, but if there is to be an agreement, there now needs to be similar movement and compromise on the part of the EU. Actions will speak louder than words.

EU Exit: Future Relationship White Paper

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 12th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

To answer the noble Lord’s last point first, for the sake of repetition, we have been clear that we are leaving the customs union. The reason why we are leaving is that we do not want to contract out our trade policy to the European Commission. He might think that is a good thing but I do not and I disagree with him. We want to come to an independent trade policy and this model would allow us to do that. I accept that there will be some challenges in negotiating this matter. However, we have put forward a proposal in good faith and intend to persuade the EU of its virtues and benefits.

On the noble Lord’s question about collecting duties, we intend to agree with the EU a mechanism for the remittance of relative tariff revenue. The UK is proposing a tariff revenue formula, taking account of goods destined for the UK entering via the EU and goods destined for the EU entering via the UK. I am afraid I cannot comment on the court proceedings that are taking place but I understand that we are vigorously resisting the sums that have been claimed.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, does not the chaos and division preceding the publication of this White Paper point once again to the approach that I have argued for in this House over the last two years? The people, by majority, voted leave because a majority of them wanted reform of free movement and control of our borders, which is what all the pre-referendum polling data showed in many national polls that were carried out. I hold copies of that polling data myself. In the changed conditions that now exist in Europe, can I once again suggest that, despite the difficulties, we pursue that limited objective and, at the same time, seek a new formula that would redefine our net contributions as gross, then let the people decide once again in a second referendum?

[Lord Callanan]

I commend the noble Lord for his perseverance in pursuing this avenue but I respectfully say to him that I do not think a second referendum is the way forward. He refers to chaos. I do not agree with him on that but were we to go down the road of a second referendum we would have months and months, if not years, of arguing about what the question should be, what its effects would be and how we would resolve them. We would need legislation to go through both Houses and to try to accomplish that would be extremely controversial. What would happen if the country voted differently? Would there be a best of three, and would we seek to reopen the whole question? If anything, that would be a recipe for massive chaos.

I said quite a bit about freedom of movement earlier. Freedom of movement is ending and I agree that that was one important factor in the referendum result. However, it was not the only factor. People voted leave for many different reasons, of which I think freedom of movement was one. That is why it is ending.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Report: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Will the noble Lord answer the question asked by my noble friend Lord Grocott? I understand that he speaks for his own Front Bench and that what he says is, therefore, the formal position of his party. In the event that this referendum were to take place, would the Liberal Democrats accept its result as binding?

[Lord Newby]

Whatever the legal words, it would be politically binding, by which I mean that the Commons would not seek to overturn it. That is the precedent set by this referendum. We know that, at the time, the vast majority of Members of the House of Commons opposed the outcome of the referendum. They accepted it, though, because that was the political reality, whether it was technically a binding referendum or not. However the people vote if there is a further referendum, that will be taken by the Commons as a binding mandate from the people.

We have to accept that, whatever the outcome of the Brexit process, the country is now very deeply divided. Anybody who has been out canvassing in recent weeks will be only too well aware of that. Many Members of your Lordships’ House will know how keenly their children and grandchildren feel on this issue. All of us who are engaged in public life have a duty to reduce this division in the years ahead, but that great challenge now confronts us, referendum or no referendum.

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My last point is about youth. There are already two years-worth of 16 and 17 year-olds—750,000 a year. By this time next year, 29 March, that will be more than 2 million of our youth. I know that almost 100% of them want to remain but they have not had a say and this is going to be imposed on them. That is not fair. It is taking their future away from them and this amendment gives them the chance to have a say.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, if there are those outside this House who, on the basis of the Division list this evening or what they have heard in this debate, believe that they are getting a fair reflection of opinion in support of a second referendum, then they are mistaken. There are many of us who support a second referendum, and have done for several years, who will be abstaining because we believe that this debate is premature. We believe that it interferes with the Government’s negotiating position and that later on this year will be the relevant time to have that great debate. At that stage, I hope it will be approved by Parliament.

[Lord Shinkwin (Con)]

My Lords, I shall keep my remarks very short. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Newby, hinted at the elephant in the room, which is respect for the clear majority who have already spoken in a once-in-a-generation referendum. He referred to the result of the referendum as being sacrosanct. Yet this amendment sticks two fingers up at the majority who voted to leave in that once-in-a-generation referendum. It tells them that we as a Parliament may have passed a law giving them the final say, confident that they would vote to remain, but that they did not repay our confidence, they failed the exam, and now there needs to be what amounts to a resit. But the once-in-a-generation referendum was not an exam and the 17.4 million people who voted to leave did not fail it. If we pass this amendment it will be Parliament that fails to respect the people. We need to respect the majority vote in that once-in-a-generation referendum as sacrosanct. Any noble Lord who truly respects the people and the fact that they have already spoken should oppose this amendment.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Well, as I said, under the Article 50 process, we have notified the European Union that we are leaving.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Would the Government equally reject a take-note Motion in the House of Commons on that matter, even if it were carried on a free vote?

[Lord Callanan]

I am not an expert on the proceedings of the other place—I have never been a Member of the House of Commons—but of course the Government will listen to decisions by the House of Commons.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, raised a very important point about freight transport crossing the border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. It is a very legitimate issue to raise and I hope the Government will listen. He also identified that, of course, this can be solved with modern IT.

I want to bring the House’s attention to the reality of the border in Northern Ireland. I was working in the Northern Ireland Office just over three years ago. I said to my office, “I’d like to go to South Armagh”. They said, “Well, Minister, that’s a frightfully bad thing to do”, but I went. Noble Lords may know that South Armagh used to be referred to as “bandit country”. Let me tell you, three and a half years ago, it certainly still was. I was with a lot of police, with a helicopter going overhead; the police still fear for their lives there because there are booby traps and things laid for them.

I particularly want to focus on smuggling. We followed a lorry on one of the little lanes from the Republic into the north. We did not stop, but the police said, “That’ll be smuggling”. We saw the impact of smuggling diesel, because there are different duties in the south and the north; huge amounts of diesel are imported from the south to the north, including a lot of red diesel that is then cleaned—sorry, has the red taken out of it—and has a huge environmental impact. There are still different subsidies there. Cattle get smuggled back and forth across the border because a lot of money can be made through smuggling across the border. There are two different customs so, of course, there are customs officers on the border; not sitting in posts, as they used to be, but still down there. They do not do much, it has to be said; there is less to do because we are part of a single market. There are, I believe, 275 different crossing points between the south and the north of Ireland, on a border of some 305 miles. Between 1922 and 1972, it was never possible to police everyone. During the Troubles—I served out there for a bit—it was not possible to stop terrorists crossing the border. We used to put concrete blocks and everything at the border, but it did not work; people came across the border.

I also remind noble Lords that there are different currency units: Ireland uses the euro but we use the pound. People manage to get past this quite easily and they will manage to do so in future as well. People say that the border in Ireland is a huge problem; it will only be a problem when we leave the European Union if people wish it to be so. It does not have to be so; good will and common sense on both sides will show that it is not beyond the wit of man for Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to co-exist quite happily and trade with each other—as they did before 1922, between 1922 and 1972, and since.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

I have not spoken on this Bill at all yet. I have made a point of not speaking because I understand the pressure on the Government, but I want to raise one issue—trusted trader status. The Government have told us that they intend to establish such a system on the border of Northern Ireland and southern Ireland. We are told that an exemption will apply to small and medium-sized enterprises involved in cross-border trade. The Government say that it is possible to manage the allegation that there will be substantial fraud under such a system. First, where can we find a definition of what constitutes a small or medium-sized enterprise? It is very important that we know that in advance. Secondly, do we know what percentage of trade will fall under that description? Thirdly, when they talk about “managing” a system, what kind of management arrangements do they intend to set in place to ensure that fraud does not take place? Finally, what will happen when it comes to customs entries for those firms that are not covered by trusted trader status? Will the clearance and entry arrangements for their goods going over actually be on the border posts? I presume that if some businesses are exempt then there must be some actual control on the border itself. These issues need to be answered at a very early stage in the procedure. I have truncated much of what I wanted to say, but I want to get this on the record this evening.

[Viscount Hailsham]

My intervention at this stage will be extraordinarily brief. What I say about Amendment 104 also applies to Amendments 105 and 106, which are in the two subsequent groups. There is a great deal of merit in requiring these reports, but there is no reason at all why they should be linked to the initiation of the regulations: that is slightly misconceived. The noble Lords, and my noble friend, who put their names to the amendments are lacking ambition. They should require these reports to be published, in any event, before Brexit day. As the Committee knows, later on in this debate we will come to the issue of parliamentary control. Parliament can only exercise full control if it is in possession of facts, and the facts will be furnished by these reports. Those noble Lords, and my noble friend, are right, thus far, in linking it to the institution of regulations, but they should be ambitious and, on Report, require these reports before Brexit day. If my noble friend does that she will find me with her.

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[Lord Callanan]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for this debate on Amendments 104 and 231, which raise the important matter of frontier control procedures and freight transport in relation to the Clause 7(1) power. I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord for his helpful technical and operational suggestions. I would have passed them on to my colleagues in the Department for Transport but my noble friend Lady Sugg has already taken careful note of them and I am sure she would like to take them forward with him personally.

I am pleased to reassure the noble Lord that discussions in this field continue with all those involved in the running of our roads and railways and the freight services that use them. How these services and the procedures involved continue to operate after our exit is, however, a matter to be negotiated with the EU. In the event that there is no negotiated outcome, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs will treat EU trade as it currently treats third country trade, which means that businesses trading with the EU will need to comply with additional customs requirements. The Government recognise that this represents a change to how UK businesses currently trade with EU firms and so we will model new customs processes and procedures on the existing Union customs code.

The noble Lord’s amendment would prevent the making of regulations in certain scenarios but it does not, and cannot, do anything to prevent those scenarios arising. This will be determined purely by what happens in the negotiations. All it would do in the unhappy situation that we did not secure a satisfactory agreement with the EU is to leave us unable to reflect that situation in domestic law, which of course would only make the position worse. Furthermore, any report that was carried out before the outcome of the negotiations would necessarily be speculative and so would lack a certain utility.

Happily, I can tell the noble Lord that the transport of goods is incredibly important to both the UK and the EU, as many noble Lords have pointed out, and there is a strong mutual interest in reaching an ambitious agreement which maximises the benefits for all businesses and individuals. As such, the Government aim to negotiate for the most tariff and barrier-free trade with our European neighbours, as the Prime Minister said in her speech last week. The Government will ensure that appropriate measures are taken when implementing whatever may be agreed. It will be done in a phased process, thereby providing businesses with enough time to plan and prepare for the new arrangements, minimising disruption.

Whatever the outcome of the negotiations, the Government believe that it is in the interests of both the UK and the EU to have efficient and effective frontier control procedures to achieve one of the strategic objectives of ensuring that UK-EU trade is as frictionless as possible. We will continue to meet our commitment to keeping Parliament fully informed on these negotiations and allow for proper scrutiny, including through regular statements and in our support for the work of committees in this House and the other place. I hope I have reassured the noble Lord that the Government will work hard on securing an agreement with the EU that works well for all in the road and rail freight sectors and I therefore ask that he will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I asked four questions on trusted trader status. When will I get my answers?

[Lord Callanan]

I will read Hansard and respond to the noble Lord in writing.