Southern Rail

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 10th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw (LD)]

My Lords—

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, did I hear the Minister correctly?

Bus Services Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Wednesday 12th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

I hope the Minister may be able to agree with me on this occasion, which will make a slight change to the proceedings. The Competition and Markets Authority has adopted a very strange response to the letting of railway franchises and has created, in the case of the northern franchise and Arriva buses, a situation which has cost the taxpayer and the companies millions of pounds in looking at the overlap between Northern’s rail services and those of Arriva buses. The northern train franchise had gone out to consultation some time before. The Competition and Markets Authority had sight of that, and after some extremely complicated negotiations, the franchise was let. Immediately, the Competition and Markets Authority started to nitpick over the franchise, saying there was a bit of overlap here and a bit of overlap there. In none of the cases was it a significant issue.

In the Bill, the Competition and Markets Authority is nominated as a consultee in some cases. The purpose of this amendment is to say that if there is a consultation over a franchise, or for that matter over an advanced quality partnership or a railway franchise, there should be some restriction on the ability of the Competition and Markets Authority, having been a consultee, to reopen the matter. It wastes a huge amount of time setting up a franchise if the authority comes back again to raise points that are small or trivial in contrast to the large scale of the businesses concerned. I have not said it should not get involved, but I have tried to lay down in this amendment some conditions or limitations on when it should become involved, and I believe it should have to have received significant complaints. I do not think it received any in the course of its intervention between Arriva trains and Arriva buses. Secondly, there would need to have consequently been a significantly adverse effect on competition.

It is important that we have a Competition and Markets Authority, but it should concern itself with real matters of competition in or between industries that restrict competition between large-scale participants. I do not think the law was ever meant to deal with very small-scale altercations between bus companies and train companies. In any event, Arriva gave undertakings that it would not alter fares in a way which diminished competition—not that in most cases any real competition existed. I hope the Minister may give us a reasoned answer to this, because what we have in mind is a lot of unnecessary and expensive bureaucracy that is likely to surround the franchising services. Provided that they have had the opportunity to be involved beforehand, it is quite wrong that after the event, they should be able to come back again and raise what are virtually trivial points. I beg to move.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, for introducing his amendment. I find it quite interesting and I look forward to what counsel the Minister gives us. I understand why the noble Lord has put the tests in new subsections 5A(a) and (b), but I am worried that subsection 5A(a),

“unless … it has received complaints about the operation of the franchise”,

could be used as part of a spoiling process by an aggrieved third party. On subsection 5A(b),

“unless … there has consequently been a significant adverse effect on competition”—

admittedly, it talks about an adverse effect—the problem I have is that it is bound to have an effect on competition because it eliminates competition. So I have a lot of sympathy with the noble Lord’s amendment, subject to what the Minister says, but if we are going to go down that route the tests might need better drafting. It will be very interesting to see how the Minister advises the House.

Bus Services Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 29th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bradley, asked my noble friend whether he is confident that the Bill will pass. I hope that my noble friend can be rather more definitive than I can, but I see no reason why it will not pass, although obviously we will want to look at it closely.

The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, talked about impact assessments. I find it a little odd in government—I am talking generally here—that one has a gem of a policy idea, one consults internally within government, publishes a Bill, puts it before Parliament and then publishes the impact assessment. Surely you should have a gem of an idea, then make an impact assessment and use that to inform discussion internally in government. Of course, as the policy develops, the impact assessment may need to be revised, but having it turn up at the last moment devalues having one at all. That is very much a general point, not a criticism of my noble friend.

[Lord Bradshaw (LD)]

My Lords, on reflection, I think that this Bill—and I have now studied it a lot—is really nothing to do with the quality of bus services generally. It is a device which has been drawn up by officials because the Chancellor promised to devolve the operation of bus services in certain areas which elect a mayor so that they can go for franchising. If you read the Bill carefully, I think you will find that it will be very difficult for them to achieve that, because there are a lot of obstacles in the way of any franchised service.

My main concern is for areas outside metropolitan areas. The bus service is in a terrible state. All sectors are now recording declines in services. They will get worse, because cuts are being made all the time. When I spoke at Second Reading, I said that more money must be found from somewhere. I realise that the Government are not willing to spend any money and that therefore this is about redirecting the money which is spent. At Second Reading, the Minister drew my attention to the fact that bus service operators grant was to be devolved to local operators. This is a very particular question: is bus services operators grant to be devolved only to the areas that get franchising? Will rural areas get any share of that money? Will it be ring-fenced if it is devolved? Because if not, if it is added to various block grants, it will be absorbed in meeting the Government’s underfunding of all sorts of other services for which local authorities are responsible.

I, too, received the rural proofing in the impact assessment. It is absolutely pathetic. The document is huge, but the intellectual input into it is minuscule. All it says about rural proofing is, to summarise, that local authorities have to decide for themselves how the resources allocated to them are spent. If they want to spend them on bus services, they have to take that away from another cause.

I suggest that the Minister carefully considers the effects of isolation and loneliness on people living in remote rural areas—and there are a lot of them. I use buses every day. I travel on one some days, and there are a dozen old rural dwellers who I know are lonely. The only time they get out is when they go on a bus. I am sure they all voted for Brexit because they are of that generation, but that rather does not cover the point—I am not sure they would be grateful and would suddenly support the other side if they restored their service. Their service is vital; I honestly believe their lives would be hugely diminished without it.

Airports: Passenger Numbers

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 15th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Earl agrees that, in answer to the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, the key issue is how many people move from one aeroplane to another at airports; and to exclude from some of these large figures all the people who stop here for a period? That way, we can separate the number of interlining passengers from the destination passengers.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, as usual, my noble friend is on the money. The Airports Commission has access to the statisticians and data available at the Department for Transport to inform its research and decisions.

Road Safety (Financial Penalty Deposit) (Appropriate Amount) (Amendment) Order 2013

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Bradshaw]

I have no objections to the order at all.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful for the positive response from noble Lords. As regards the hiccup, I will write to the noble Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, with full details of the impact and how we will cover it.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, talked about careless driving. Of course, careless driving is not necessarily a less serious offence. Some of the offences that we are already capturing under the graduated fixed penalty are less serious than careless driving. The issue is that we have brought careless driving into the fixed-penalty regime. I understand the noble Lord’s point about dealing with a more serious careless driving offence by means of a fixed penalty when it would be appropriate to take it to court. It is a matter for the police which way they go and I am sure that they will make the judgment correctly. However, I have details here about which would come out as less serious offences, able to be dealt with by means of a fixed penalty. I have no doubt that the more serious offences will continue to be taken to court. For instance, if a driver emerges from a junction incorrectly, he may pick up a fixed penalty but if he causes another motorist to take emergency avoiding action, his chances are that he will find himself in court.

Roads: Road Safety

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 1st July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I do not think the noble Lord misses much at all. We have recently launched a Think Cyclist safety campaign and have made £35 million available to tackle dangerous junctions for cyclists across the country. The £35 million is part of the additional £107 million of investment in cycling that the Government have announced since February last year.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, in 2004 this House passed the Traffic Management Act, Part 6 of which was designed to enable local authorities to take action against matters such as cycling on the pavement, jumping traffic lights and all manner of moving traffic offences. That part has not been implemented by the Minister’s department. It languished under the party opposite and continues to languish now.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Colwyn said, this is quite a wide-ranging Question. I am afraid that I am not aware of that particular difficulty. However, I shall write to my noble friend about it.

Airports: London

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 10th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord knows very well that the issue is not about point-to-point capacity with the various London airports; it is about hub capacity.

[Lord Bradshaw]

On the subject of hub capacity, is it not relevant to think in terms of which airlines bring people into Heathrow who require the access to a hub? Many airports cater for people who are coming to the United Kingdom for short or long stays, and they do not need to interline. The announcement this morning of Birmingham Airport’s massive expansion, and the fact that it is going to be 35 minutes from the centre of London, should also be taken into account.

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend makes many very good points, and I am sure that the Airport Commission will take them into consideration.

Railways: Crossrail

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 5th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, Crossrail 1 is very expensive and there is a now a possibility of Crossrail 2 which will be much more so. Have the Government given any thought to ways in which contributions from businesses which benefit from these schemes can be efficiently tapped into the scheme? For example, while at Ealing huge rises in property prices have benefited several private sector investors, the taxpayer gets nothing.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right that we will need to see a full business case for the revised scheme, and we hope to receive this from Transport for London in the next few weeks. We also need to see a convincing proposition for how the scheme could be funded and DfT officials are exploring options with TfL. I agree with the noble Lord about property benefits but it is difficult to capture them.

Energy: Biofuels

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 27th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I accept that several government departments are involved; however, officials do talk to each other. The Secretary of State, Ed Davey, was representing the UK in Europe, trying to find a solution to the ILUC problems.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Having given a modest reply to the first part of the Question and a slightly different reply to the second part, can the Minister please assure the House that the Government really take the biofuels industry seriously? For example, is he aware of plans to import through Milford Haven large quantities of biomass that is derived not from food crops but waste products from elsewhere? Is it not time that we see some of these strategies come to fruition, rather than the present process, which seems to shilly-shally about in minor adjustment here and there?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we take the biofuels industry seriously; it is an important industry. However, we must have regard to the fact that we are regulated by EU and World Trade Organisation free-trade rules, and we therefore cannot put in measures specifically designed to protect the UK biofuels industry.

Roads: New and Young Drivers

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 18th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

Can the noble Earl tell the House what progress is really being made? Accidents and serious injuries among young drivers cause the largest number of deaths in that age group. I know he said that the department is considering something, but can he give us concrete evidence of any move which may reduce this toll of unnecessary suffering?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that a motor accident is a very high risk for youngsters—probably the worst risk for an untimely end. However, the previous Government made good progress in reducing the accident rate and we will continue that work.

Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2013

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 27th February 2013 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

I accept the point about the improving fuel efficiency of all transport equipment, and that is desirable. I also accept that we want to increase the amount of biofuel in order to reduce CO₂ emissions. We have the same objectives. However, we also have to be careful not to do something that looks really good but gets us in a position where we are using very large amounts of biofuel while indirectly creating land use change in other parts of the world. I will come back to that in a moment.

The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, raised the point about used cooking oils, which now get two RTFCs. As he said, that does not equate to the 20 pence duty differential. The department recognises the importance of biodiesel made from UCO. We have committed to review the RTFO this year, but we cannot do so until we have had a full year of data on what is going on in the market. Because of the way that the market works, RTFCs can be issued quite late in the cycle. We must get the correct data.

At Question Time the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, raised with me a point regarding the dual obligation. A problem can arise whereby we might take a large import of ethanol and that adversely affects the used cooking oil market. I undertook to raise this issue with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and I have done so. However, we cannot expect any changes until we have properly analysed the year’s trading.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Perhaps the noble Earl can stop there. It is generally small businesses that deal with used cooking oil, and cutting their income for a year can put a number of them out of business. This is not a game that is played in lofty heights; it is a cash-in-hand business. If it is not worth collecting the cooking oil, it will not get collected. There is some sense of urgency in communicating to the industry the Government’s real intention to make sure that such businesses do not lose out through these changes. When they were made—the withdrawal of the 20 pence differential and its replacement with renewable certificates—it was trumpeted that the industry would be better off or protected, but what has actually happened? I would like an answer, please.

[Earl Attlee]

I should point out that the duty differential was extremely expensive. I go back to my point that we must wait until the end of the trading period to see how the market is working. The other point is that, because of world and EU trade rules, as the noble Lord knows perfectly well, we cannot put in place regulations designed to protect our own used cooking oil industry.

[Lord Bradshaw]

However, you could take into account the fact that those people are giving a service to the community by collecting this wretched stuff, instead of it going to waste. It would not be stretching credulity too far to say that there should be a supplement to whatever is paid because they are carrying out a job that would otherwise fall to the Government. You have got to collect the stuff. Collecting it through the sewers, rivers or landfill is expensive.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, as the noble Lord knows perfectly well, if someone poured used cooking oil into a river they would be committing a serious criminal offence.

I can answer the point from my noble friend the Duke of Montrose, who talked about the freezing point—the wax point—of gas oil. There are, as he will know, technical regulations regarding where gas oil or diesel oil will freeze, but I have not briefed myself on that. In Bosnia, however, in the winter of 1993-94, I experienced gas oil freezing and it was not very funny. If I have anything more to add on that or if there is a problem I will write to my noble friend. I suspect that there is no specific freezing problem. However, I have to be honest and say that there are issues with biodiesel regarding how long you can store it. Advice is being issued to the people responsible—especially those with large generating plant or construction equipment—so that they know the limitations and that they will have to adapt their procedures slightly. It is a well understood problem.

Republic of Ireland: Aids to Navigation

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 25th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I know that it took a long time to achieve this agreement, which is down to my honourable friend Mike Penning, who secured agreement with the Irish Government. The noble Lord asked when transfer payments would stop. That is a bit of a complex question. If a Commissioners of Irish Lights vessel works in UK waters as part of the co-operation between the various lighthouse authorities, there will of course be a transfer payment. It is a little complicated to say exactly when any transfer payments will stop; they may never stop. The main thing is that we will, by 2016, no longer support the Irish lights.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Does the noble Lord acknowledge that the situation in Ireland has been going on for 90 years? Further, will he confirm that if the Scottish Government vote for independence, the cost of the Scottish lights will be transferred to that Government?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is interesting to note that the Atkins report, commissioned by this Government in 2010, recommended that we retain the Northern Lighthouse Board and Trinity House to provide lights in Scotland and England respectively. We have no intention of changing those arrangements.

Airports: Heathrow

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 13th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Baroness raises an important point about the operational freedoms trials which arose from the south-east airports taskforce, chaired by my right honourable friend Theresa Villiers. We are in the second phase of the trials. They are not yet complete, so we do not yet have the complete answer. We will just have to see the results, but we are making good progress on the trials.

On stacking, the Civil Aviation Authority is undertaking a study on the future airspace strategy. One of the objectives is to reduce stacking of aircraft, because of the noise, emission and cost.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Most people have been worried by the awful trouble caused when there is bad winter weather at Heathrow. As the allocation of flights is, as the Minister put it in his Answer, a commercial matter, will he consider asking the CAA whether there should be a regulatory decision which would actually make airlines cancel flights in order that they can stop the horrors that happened at Heathrow two or three weeks ago?

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend raises an important point. In the event of bad weather, a committee, HADACAB, determines whether it is desirable to reduce the number of flights so that Heathrow, or any other airport, is not running at maximum capacity and time is provided for the runway to be cleared.

Railways: Fares

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Thursday 31st January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have conducted any comparison of the level of railway fares in the United Kingdom compared with those in countries elsewhere in Europe.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the most recent major study that included comparisons of the level of railway fares in Europe was published by Passenger Focus. It showed that, although the overall picture is mixed, Great Britain compares favourably with other European countries in respect of many ticket types, particularly on longer-distance tickets purchased in advance. The study compared some other factors, such as frequency of commuter services into major cities, in which Great Britain also compared favourably.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Does the Minister agree that, although the fares are supposed to go up by RPI plus one, there are countless incidents of fares rising by much more than that—for example 9% from Sevenoaks to London. Will he ensure, and also ask his right honourable friend to ensure, that, when a cap is placed on fares, it is a cap that people can understand? The majority of people do not understand the way in which the fares baskets are compiled, which allows such breaches of common sense and of what is commonly understood.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I agree that it must be difficult for ordinary passengers to understand how ticket pricing works. The increase in regulated fares is implemented by train operators as an average across a basket of fares. This flexibility allows some fares to be increased by up to 5%—although only 2% on Southern—more than the average, while other fares must increase by much less or even be held flat to comply with the regulated average.

Railways: High Speed Rail

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 28th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, first, we thoroughly support the recommendations. They are about capacity. However, you cannot talk about capacity and ignore the freight dimension, and the freight dimension has been totally ignored by the opponents of HS1.

Secondly, I want to talk about railway fares. We must be careful that we are not building what will be described in the media as a “rich man’s toy”. Is the Minister aware of recently published research which says that British railway fares are in fact lower than those in France, Germany and elsewhere on the near continent? Only fares at the highest peak here are more expensive than in Europe. Will the Minister contact the Rail Regulator and ATOC to see if we can stop these very large increases, often in commuter fares, which are so far above RPI plus one? Fares at RPI plus nine are not uncommon. The next time fares are revised we should attend to the fares basket, on which the fares are calculated, so that people are hit less. Commuters in places such as Manchester and Leeds have seen very little improvement to their services. They have rotten rolling stock that should have been got rid of years ago, and yet they are being called on to shoulder the burden of the investment when it will be a long time before they see any benefits.

Lastly, and briefly, outside the railway industry is where the benefits lie. If you look at Crossrail you will see already that the land and property values are rising very fast, but the railway gets no benefit in terms of the attribution of these in any economic forum.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, first, my noble friend touched on the needs of freight. He is absolutely right, because one problem that we face if we do nothing is running out of capacity on the west coast main line for both passengers and freight. So it is a major driver that we absolutely have to do this project to provide sufficient capacity for freight, because there simply are not the train paths for people to put on the services that they would like to run.

I am looking forward to answering an Oral Question on Thursday regarding railway fares, and my noble friend has been asking me numerous Written Questions about how the fares basket is calculated. One question that it is important to answer is: will it be more expensive to travel by HS2? The issue of fares will be considered in more detail as the project develops. However, our assumptions on the viability of HS2 and the expected fares income do not factor in or depend on a premium for high-speed services.

Airports: Heathrow

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 23rd January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

I think that the noble Baroness is suggesting that an extra runway would solve the problem. However, I should point out that Charles de Gaulle airport experienced a cancellation rate of 40% despite having four runways.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, I have managed all sorts of transport terminals and routes. The only way to deal with the problems at Heathrow would have been to put in a contingency plan which reduced in advance the number of flights taking off and landing. Proper contingency planning is needed so that passengers are advised well in advance not to leave their homes, not to leave their hotels and not to sleep on the terminal floor. Will the Minister encourage the CAA and other aviation authorities to introduce such plans?

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend is quite right in his analysis of a possible solution. Indeed, that is what happens. A committee called HADACAB determines whether we need to cancel some flights in advance in order to provide capacity to do things such as keep the runway clear. In addition, in future, as a result of the Civil Aviation Act 2012, the Civil Aviation Authority will be able to set resilience conditions on the operator’s licence, but that will not be until April 2014.

Airports: Capacity

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, this problem was not unforeseeable. It has been coming for many years, including when noble Lords opposite were in government. We need to get a consensus and find a lasting solution that will survive a change in Governments.

[Lord Bradshaw]

I hope that the noble Earl will ponder the following: a great deal of the heat in the debate about air capacity is caused by the bidding war that has broken out between various airports and airlines. Will the noble Earl ensure that the Davies commission will, to the best of its ability, be governed by the fact that we should create extra capacity only when a real need is demonstrated?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am confident that the Airports Commission, headed up by Sir Howard, will consider all relevant matters.

Renewable Transport Fuel Obligation

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Thursday 13th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I understand the point that the noble Lord is making but we are bound by the WTO trade rules and EU state aid rules.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Does my noble friend agree that there really are two types of renewable fuel? There is that produced from food crops, which are converted, and that which is collected as waste products from places such as fish and chip shops. There is a much greater utility in the second type than in the first. I somehow feel that the Government must go to the World Trade Organisation and the EEC, or somebody else, and make a clear distinction so that they can reward properly the people who are doing a service in stopping the deposit of waste into drains and onto land.

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend is largely right. That is why fuels derived from waste products get two renewable transport fuel certificates, whereas short rotation first generation crops get only one certificate. However, there is a difficulty and the policy needs to be designed so we do not get indirect land use change problems. My honourable friend Mr Norman Baker is working closely with the European Union to get a solution to that problem.

Roads: Roadworks

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

The matter that causes most trouble on the roads is the fact that utility companies do not seal up the work that they do, so there is an ingress of moisture that in turn bursts the road surface. Will the Minister ask his right honourable friend in another place to see whether the agreements with the utility companies can be tightened up to ensure that they reinstate the roads properly after they do their work?

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend makes an important point: reinstatement is an important issue. There are guidelines and local authorities should normally check that the whole reinstatement process is being done correctly.

Railways: London Midland Rail Franchise

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 31st October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, it takes at least a year to train a driver. If we try to cut it down, we face the horrors we saw at Ladbroke Grove some years ago when an undertrained driver caused 30 deaths. London Midland has a full number of drivers in training and will bring forward a new timetable in December covering most of its services. Instead of talking about punishments and retribution, could we prevail upon the train company to put all its efforts into using all available media methods to apprise customers of any cancellations as far in advance as it can?

[Earl Attlee]

I entirely agree with everything my noble friend says, particularly his point about customers making sure they check with National Rail Enquiries shortly before their journey to give themselves the highest chance of not arriving at the station to find the trains are not running.

West Coast Main Line

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 29th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, I am not going to join the chorus of criticism. That is water under the bridge, the situation is going to cost a lot of money, and it may take a long time to resolve.

I have some experience of models, how complex they are, and how very few people actually understand what is inside them. You virtually have to have a degree in econometrics to understand them, and to some extent it is in the interests of the consultants that it should be so, because it keeps them in work. The whole issue of subordinated loans, which is connected with long franchises, means that you are asking the banks to put up a lot of money into the very distant future. We know that the banks are risk-averse and a new method must be found of covering this liability, or else it will bring all long franchises down.

I would like an assurance from the Minister that all the stalled franchises will continue good housekeeping, small investment schemes, support for community rail trusts, and all those things in the time before a new franchise procedure is launched. I warn him that it is going to take a long time, possibly two or three years, to get a viable scheme going.

Is it not better, rather than having very long franchises, to build into the franchise process a reward for delivery of excellent service, whereby each year you get something off the next bid? If you have five good years and then rebid, you may get a 5% advantage over any other bidders. That would underwrite continuity, which is appreciated by the staff and the customers.

I have one final question: will the noble Earl give attention to the large-scale orders that are imminent from rolling-stock companies? I am talking about big money. These will not go ahead unless the department gives some reassurance to the rolling-stock companies that the franchises they let are going to use the rolling stock. That is extremely important, particularly for lots of jobs in Derby and Preston.

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw made some important points but, of course, for answers to many of them we will have to wait to see what the Brown report says. However, I agree that we need to be careful to keep what is good about the current franchising system. At this stage, in advance of the report, I would not want to comment on how long it will take to get the franchising system running again. Rolling stock is of course a separate issue from the franchising problems, but he makes an important point and I will draw it to the attention of my right honourable friend the Minister of State.

Bus Industry

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Thursday 18th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

That is a rather wider question, and I would be delighted to write to the noble Lord on that.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw talked about ring-fencing BSOG. It is vital that local authorities have flexibility to use funds to best effect. However, it is also important not to get turbulence in the bus market when changes take place as we reform the BSOG, so we will ring-fence BSOG for tendered buses for a transitional period.

The noble Lord, Lord Snape, asked about BSOG in rural areas. There are no plans to cut BSOG total. BSOG for tendered services will be devolved to local transport authorities. There are lots of them in rural areas, and therefore more flexibility for local authorities best to support bus services as they see fit. Commercial BSOG outside BBAs will remain the same for now, but how we apply it will be reviewed later.

My noble friend Lord Bradshaw asked how much the Competition Commission inquiry cost the taxpayer. I do not have the figure to hand, but I will write to him. He also asked about better bus area bids excluding population areas under 100,000. We have yet to issue guidance on the criteria for designating BBAs for devolved BSOG. However, we will be looking for proposals that can help to grow the economy and reduce carbon emissions. BBA 2012 was mainly aimed at large urban areas as being more able to meet the criteria.

The final point that I can address is whether there is any incentive for better bus speeds to take driver management systems, such as RIBAS, into account when bus systems are assessed. The criteria against which better bus area bids were judged included reduction in carbon emissions, which indirectly would offer a potential incentive for operators to use driver management systems such as RIBAS, given their positive impact on fuel efficiency and carbon emissions. The long-term goal of decoupling bus subsidy from fuel consumption will incentivise greater fuel efficiency within bus service operator fleets, which, in turn, should incentivise the use of driver management systems.

[Lord Bradshaw]

The Minister has several times referred to subsidy to bus operators in respect of things such as concessionary fares. That is a subsidy to the passenger; it is not a subsidy to the bus industry.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I accept my noble friend’s point.

The Government believe in buses. The vision is for a better bus with more of the attributes passengers want: more punctual, interconnected services, an even greener and more fully wheelchair-accessible fleet and the wide availability of smart ticketing. A more attractive, more competitive, greener bus network will encourage more people on to buses, create growth and cut carbon.

Railways: Franchises

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 10th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord asked how Sam Laidlaw and Richard Brown can perform their duties. The answer is that they will do so with integrity, and I am sure that the noble Lord is not suggesting that they are unable to do that. He also suggested that officials have acted in bad faith. I can assure the House that there is no evidence whatever of officials having acted in bad faith. It is a serious mistake but there is no evidence of bad faith.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Will the noble Earl think about the fact that the franchise process is probably irretrievably broken? Will he ask his right honourable friend the Secretary of State to make a bid for room in the legislative programme in the next Session of Parliament, as I believe it is inevitable that this Act and its successors will have to be reviewed?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I do not believe that the franchise process is inevitably broken, but that is a matter for Richard Brown to review. Professor David Begg has been reported in the Financial Times as saying:

“Because of this procurement failure we risk becoming far too negative and throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We can fix this, we’ve done it before”.

Wise words indeed, and the first and correct step is these two fairly quick inquiries.

Railways: Franchises

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 9th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, some noble Lords express disappointment that a full Statement has not been made. Nobody asked for a full Statement. I was very willing to answer a PNQ yesterday afternoon but there was not one because we have the topical question today. As for ministerial responsibility, noble Lords know perfectly well that this was a highly regrettable mistake by officials, not by Ministers.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Will the noble Earl send word to his colleagues elsewhere that no new franchises should be let for any railway until full consideration is made of the high level of risk which the Government are seeking to transfer to the private sector? I believe that the private sector is unable to bear that risk because predicting revenues 15 years hence is nearly impossible. I commend him to the Mayor of London who is running the London Overground railway on an entirely different basis where the revenue risk lies with the GLC and the people running the franchise are paid to operate the railway efficiently but are not expected to take these unbearable risks.

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend asks extremely good questions and that is the purpose of the Brown review which will look into the franchising system and report back to us by the end of the year.

Energy: Biofuels

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 8th October 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

Let us bear in mind that the people who recycle the food waste to which the noble Lord opposite referred are almost all very small businesses. They are not large corporations. They go round and collect fish-and-chip oil and similar things from shops, and of course they are doing a service in that this stuff is not going to landfill. Will the Minister refocus, please, on the plight of small businesses that are being very adversely affected? The RTFO certificates to which he referred are not compensating for the reduction from the previous scheme.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, although I agree with my noble friend’s analysis, he needs to understand that these fuels are also traded internationally in large quantities.

Aviation: Policy

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 23rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it is not quite right to say that we have done nothing about Heathrow. First, we introduced the operational freedoms that will make it easier for Heathrow to recover from any disruption during the day without having any more unscheduled night flights. In addition, we have just announced the western rail access to Heathrow, so the argument that we have done nothing is not a good one.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, will the noble Earl tell his right honourable friend that there are a lot of capacity issues to discuss? There is a lot of capacity at Stansted, Birmingham, Gatwick, Manchester and Luton that is underused. Will she also make sure that, as well as taking the environment and regional growth outside London into account, what the passenger wants is also taken fully into account?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend for putting the other side of the argument to the House. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State is well seized of these points.

Railways: Electrification

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 18th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the CP5 is not the end of the electrification process. We have announced what we will do in terms of electrification for CP5, but the process will go on.

[Lord Bradshaw]

The announcement this week means that more than 800 miles of electrification are now likely. That is good news for consultants, good news for planners and good news for those seeking apprenticeships. Would the Minister care to speculate on what would have been done by the party opposite?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I would hope that the party opposite, if in power, would have carried on with the process of giving us a railway system that is fit for the people of the United Kingdom

Civil Aviation Bill

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 4th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Bradshaw]

Perhaps I may add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, on what he has said. I do not know whether the amendment is acceptable in this form, but I look forward to seeing something at Report stage that will safeguard the interests of consumers.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the amendment addresses two concerns, both of which I share. I can recall very well the debate initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, on precisely these issues, and I hope that I gave a positive response at the time. One of the issues is the ability of the CAA to publish comparable information on air transport service pricing, and the other is that of showing the full costs of travel and surcharges. In responding, I will show that the first is already provided for in the Bill and that the second is being addressed in other ways.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, is right to say that the CAA should have a role. Clause 83 is widely drawn and thus gives the CAA a new and important statutory role in promoting better public information about the aviation industry’s performance. It imposes a duty on the authority either to publish, or to arrange for the aviation sector to publish, consumer information and advice that it considers appropriate to help people compare aviation prices and services. The judgment of what is appropriate will be a matter for the regulator, which is required to prepare and consult on a statement of its policy with regard to the use of these functions. The information that Clause 83 requires the CAA to publish, if it considers that appropriate, is defined in a way that includes price comparison data, and the proposed amendment will not therefore add anything to what the CAA will be able to do. For that reason, the amendment is not necessary, and the Government oppose it.

In the debate on Second Reading, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, expressed his concerns about the full costs of travel and surcharges. I will therefore set out what the Government are doing to address the issue. On the full cost of travel, consumers are already protected throughout the EU by Article 23 of EU Regulation 1008/2008, which is sometimes referred to as the ticket transparency regulation. It requires airlines to display at all times their prices inclusive of all unavoidable and foreseeable taxes, fees and charges. It also requires any optional services such as checked baggage or priority boarding to be offered on an opt-in basis only, and that the prices for these optional extras are clearly and unambiguously displayed at the start of the booking process. In addition to displaying fully inclusive prices, the regulation requires a breakdown of the price into the fare and any taxes, charges, surcharges and fees where these are added. These services should be displayed clearly and unambiguously at the start of the booking process. These requirements are designed to ensure that consumers are able to compare the price of flights across a number of airlines and to ensure that they select only the optional extras they require.

Civil Aviation Bill

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 2nd July 2012 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, this is not a debate about the third runway. Whether we have a third runway at Heathrow is not relevant. If we got a situation in which we had a third runway and then ran out of capacity at Heathrow, we would still have the same problem.

In addition, the application of traffic distribution rules—the TDRs—is also governed by EU law, which prohibits the implementation of discriminatory rules, including on geographical grounds. As a result, the introduction of TDRs to protect particular regional air services is not an option as it would also be incompatible with EU law. If the amendment seeks to empower the CAA to give a direction to the airport to structure its charges so as to discount airport usage for regional services, I regret that this would not be possible for a number of reasons. If it is not in the interests of users of air transport services on the grounds of the range, availability, continuity, cost and quality of airport operation services, it would not be consistent with the primary duty for the CAA to give such a direction.

In addition, EU directive 2009/12/EC on airport charges introduced common principles on the levying of airport charges at community airports above a certain size to ensure transparency and consultation. That directive was transposed into UK law through the Airport Charges Regulations 2011. Airport charges must not discriminate between users but charges can vary in the interests of the public and in the general interest, provided the reasons are relevant, objective and transparent. The CAA has an enforcement role regarding the Airport Charges Regulations, so it would not be consistent for it to direct on the structure of airport charges. However, as your Lordships are aware from the opening remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, the EU slot regulations are in the process of being reformed in Europe at present. The European Commission’s “Better Airports” package includes proposals to amend the EU slot regulations, which provides an opportunity for the UK to highlight this issue with the European Commission and to explore the inclusion of measures to help secure the ongoing provision of air services between UK regions and congested London airports.

I fully understand the concerns behind the noble Lord’s proposed new clause, but I am unable to support it for the reasons given. Nevertheless, I assure the Committee that the Government are committed to supporting regional airports and regional connectivity. We will also consult on a new aviation policy framework, which will include a focus on regional airports. We will also issue a call for evidence on maintaining the UK’s international connectivity. I would welcome the contribution of the noble Lords and their constituents to that debate and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, will consider withdrawing his amendment.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Before the noble Lord, Lord Empey, speaks, I have to say that that is one of the most convoluted answers that I have ever heard. We say in these debates that we will read Hansard, but we shall do so with a wet towel around our heads this time. I believe it is incumbent on the Government here in London to find a method by which the air services to Belfast, of which I was a regular customer, can be maintained. They are incredibly expensive now compared with similar flights elsewhere. The customer is being short-changed. I hope that the Minister and his colleagues will bear it in mind that this must be put right in any review of aviation legislation.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I could paraphrase what I have just said by saying that we cannot do what the noble Lord wants because of EU regulations but the EU is working on it.

Transport: Road Traffic

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 2nd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am confident about the accuracy of this brief, but regret that during our discussions last Monday I stated that the return fare on the “Scillonian III” for Scilly Isles residents was £20.50. However, this is in fact the single fare and there may be other qualifications. I am very sorry about this, since it made my position appear stronger than it really was, to the detriment of the noble Lord’s.

The noble Lord asked me detailed questions about the management of traffic in London. He will appreciate that that is a matter for the mayor. It is disappointing that overall fatalities have increased slightly, the reasons for which we have not yet examined fully.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Part 6 of the Traffic Management Act 2004, to which the Minister has referred, gives local authorities powers to manage traffic—for example, yellow box junctions and right turns—which they can enforce through their own staff. However, is the Minister aware that the regulations have never been extended outside London? He should take it from me that bus services would be immeasurably improved if local authorities could discipline people who block the highway.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I shall draw my noble friend’s point to the attention of Mr Norman Baker, the Minister responsible.

Civil Aviation Bill

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, Ministers spend all their time consulting with outside bodies. However, at some point they are advised that it is inappropriate to meet them. I have agreed with my noble friend that I will take this up with the Permanent Secretary.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, mentioned Manchester. The noble Lord will recognise that Manchester is not a regulated airport. If it decided to contribute to a surface access scheme, it could recover the costs from its customers if the market would bear it. However, that is of course a commercial matter for the airport.

Clause 19(6) provides that “a price control condition” may be made,

“by reference to the amount charged for particular goods or services”,

or,

“to the overall amount charged for a range of goods or services”.

Clause 19 does not specify the mechanics of setting the price control and leaves the CAA with flexibility to take whatever approach seems most appropriate within the framework provided by Clauses 1 and 18(1). Specifically, this flexibility, combined with the provision in Clause 21(1)(f) which states that licensed activities may relate,

“to activities carried on outside the airport area”,

will not prohibit the CAA from taking into account costs from outside the airport area, such as from rail links, where appropriate when setting a price control.

However, given the importance of this issue, the Government will reflect on the debate and specifically will consider further whether any extension to the primary duty to make special provision in respect of rail and road links to the airport is necessary or desirable. I hope that I have provided my noble friend with the reassurance he seeks, particularly that the Government will consider the amendment further and if appropriate bring forward an amendment on Report.

[Lord Bradshaw]

I just add the fact that the airport is often the primary reason why the surface links are needed but many people benefit from them. I am not suggesting that the airport should pay the whole cost but a proportion. If its regulatory asset base is linked to that, the airport needs to make sure that it can collect money from the airlines using the airport. I am most anxious that the cost of the facilities should be a charge on the airlines as well as any another beneficiaries. I am not saying that the airlines should pay the whole but a proportion of the cost of the new facilities. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Transport: Isles of Scilly Ferry Link

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 25th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am aware of the economic difficulties in Cornwall. As regards the comparison with the Scottish situation, it is difficult to make valid direct comparisons when the circumstances vary and the service is rather more complicated.

It is important to remember that transport links to the Scilly Isles are provided on a commercial basis, whether by sea or by air. Cornwall Council rules itself out of leading the smaller-scale infrastructure schemes so development work has been undertaken by the Council of the Isles of Scilly and Penzance town council. These involve improving provision for freight handling, extending the quay at St Mary’s and dredging at Penzance to accommodate a deeper-hulled vessel. The noble Lord is quite right that the ERDF funds are time-limited.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Will the noble Earl consider the fact that the present ship engaged in the seven months of the year service will not be replaced on a commercial basis because the helicopter and the ship are running on borrowed time? Will he give serious consideration to extending the PSO arrangements in Scotland to the Scilly Isles? They are part of our economy but they will be more or less cut off when the existing ships and infrastructure fail.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we are not currently minded to consider a PSO because there is no need to do so as the ferry service is currently run on a commercial basis. The steamship company has recently announced that it will invest in the ship to maintain it in operational use until at least 2018 and we are not aware of any major structural defects that will necessarily prevent seaworthiness beyond that time.

Airports: Heathrow

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 28th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I doubt it. The issue about night flights is that flights coming in from the Far East make connections at Heathrow.

[Lord Bradshaw]

The work that I have done on the Civil Aviation Bill has shown me that there is a lot of spare capacity at Stansted, Luton, Gatwick and Birmingham, an airport which I am just about to visit. The release of that capacity is dependent on improved surface connections to all four airports. I urge the Minister to look into that before we try to put everything into Heathrow and so get some of the traffic spread out because it is not all hub traffic.

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend makes valid points.

Aviation Policy

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 14th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, because we have to get the policy right. Successive Governments have struggled to develop an enduring policy that will outlast changes of government. We have to get it right and we are going to do it properly, but we will announce our aviation policy framework next spring.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Does the Minister agree that there is a lot of spare capacity at Gatwick, Stansted and Birmingham, which is soon to have a runway extension, and that if these resources were used intelligently and properly, we would have sufficient airport capacity? We need to improve surface access to those airports.

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend makes a very good point. That is exactly why we have called for evidence on hub connectivity.

Transport: Automatic Number Plate Recognition

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 24th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the cost of uninsured drivers is considerable. Uninsured drivers are also vulnerable to legal difficulties. The situation is highly undesirable, which is why we are taking steps to reduce the level of uninsured driving. The idea of using ANPR on petrol forecourts is innovative and being considered, but further work is needed to establish how it will work in practice alongside existing enforcement measures.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Will my noble friend take this fact away? ANPR is cutting-edge technology. It is very capable and can detect uninsured or stolen vehicles, people who are wanted by the police, and myriad other things. However, the legal system, which is in the hands of the Home Office, is not keeping pace. I have been on ANPR checks that have had to be stood down after about an hour because all the available space in a police station to process the prisoners has been quite overwhelmed.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend is right about the advantages of ANPR technology. It detects a considerable number of unlicensed vehicles. I was out with the police last week and we caught an uninsured driver. It is not the only technique available. Under continuous insurance enforcement, the DVLA is able to issue fixed-penalty notices to anyone who operates a vehicle that is not insured and not declared to be off the road. That will also be a very effective deterrent.

Railways: Level Crossings

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Thursday 15th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

I am sure my noble friend will agree that level crossings represent the largest risk of a serious rail accident occurring. Will he please give the House an assurance that the Government will look at the procedures for closing level crossings? Such closures are usually opposed by highway authorities down to the Ramblers’ Association and with 100 organisations in between, and yet many could be closed without serious detriment to public convenience. If he would do that I would be very much obliged.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend is right to draw attention to this serious risk, which is why Network Rail pays so much attention to it. It is important to understand that we have far and away the best record on this matter in Europe, with the exception of Ireland, which is only slightly better. In this control period Network Rail will close around 556 crossings. I imagine that many of these are footpath or farm crossings. However, providing just a footbridge costs £750,000. It is very hard to construct a robust business case given the very low chance of an accident occurring at any particular crossing. Network Rail is trying to reduce the cost of these bridges. It is important to understand that where the risk is known to be higher, a crossing system with increased protection will already have been installed.

Railways: Great Western Franchise

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 6th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises an extremely important point. The Government’s objective is to strike an equitable balance of stakeholder interests: the fare payer, the taxpayer, the long-distance business traveller and the commuter. These stakeholders are obviously in conflict. Because of this, we urge our friends in the west and south-west of England to reach a consensus on their priorities so that we can use our resources to progress them to best effect.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, the last Great Western franchise was almost a disaster from the day it was let. It has had to be rescued both with more rolling stock and more money. Will the Minister give an undertaking that, whichever bids are received for the new franchise, they are robust bids and, as it will be a 15-year franchise, that they will include quite a contribution of new ideas, new rolling stock and new infrastructure?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend makes important points. Although value for money is high up on the agenda, given the challenges set by the McNulty review, the exact evaluation criteria are yet to be determined, but they will reflect the franchise objectives that, for clarity, are managing change, providing appropriate capacity, ensuring that the passenger experience continues to improve, operational and environmental performance, and delivering efficiencies.

Cyclists: Accidents

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, the “Trixie” mirrors to which the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, referred, have to be fitted on traffic signals and have to receive the assent of the Department of Transport under present regulations. Most authorities that wanted to use them would have to submit a form to the department for the Secretary of State or his representative to sign. Would the Minister look at that bureaucracy? He mentioned that the Government were re-examining the regulations with a view to improving them by 2014, but I do not think that comes under the definition of “soon” that we heard on an earlier Question.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point about the need for the department to approve traffic signs. It is important that the traffic signs are consistent right across the United Kingdom to avoid a plethora of different designs of traffic signal, which would be very confusing to motorists.

Rail: Great Western Passenger Franchise

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord contributes to the consultation, because he makes some valid points.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, will the Minister address his mind to the fact that, on many of the franchises throughout the kingdom, the carriages in use are full to overflowing, but the Department for Transport holds the trump card in the acquisition of new rolling stock, because it has to give permission before that can be done? Under the new franchise, does he envisage that whoever wins it or other franchises will have reasonable freedom to negotiate, without the dead hand of the department?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the reason why it is necessary for the department to have the final say is so that it could take over the franchise and run the rolling stock. The noble Lord, Lord Snape, talked about the franchisee handing in the keys. Franchisees might want to do that if they negotiated a rolling stock agreement that had a balloon payment right at the end. Obviously, the department would refuse that. We are very keen that bidders are able to negotiate freely with the rolling stock companies, with the exception of the IEP, on this franchise.

Railways: Train Design

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Thursday 12th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following the recent award to Bombardier of the contract for 130 new carriages, what further plans they have for maintaining train design or manufacturing capacity in the United Kingdom.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we believe that in most cases the procurement of rolling stock should be led by the rail industry, but in cases where the Government are involved we will take on board the conclusions of the Government’s recent review of procurement to give suppliers confidence to invest in their capability to meet future demand by publishing pipelines of future government needs and taking action to remove barriers to growth.

[Lord Bradshaw]

The announcement of the new train order to Bombardier took place 1,000 days after the last order was placed. There is no doubt that the Government are deeply involved because the short term of franchises means that no rolling stock company can get its money back in the duration of the franchise. The Answer that I have been given is quite disingenuous. I really want some assurance that British industry will be supported. It has only 100 days work from this new order and it is time that something was done to extend that period.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, noble Lords will know that this Government have made considerable investment in the rail industry and will continue to do so. Noble Lords should also be aware that there is considerable refurbishment work available on the existing rolling stock in order to make it compliant with new accessibility requirements.

Railways: High-speed Rail

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord makes an important point. I referred earlier to the work that both Houses did on the Channel Tunnel Rail Link Act. Local people were able to petition if the developers had not privately met their needs. The effort expended during that planning process has clearly given us long-term benefits. However, it is important not to short circuit the approval process of this project, otherwise we could face serious problems when we try to start the construction phase. That would be much more expensive than doing it properly in the first place.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Will the Minister consider the methods of appraisal that are likely to be used in producing the economic case? We now use economic measures that were developed in the 1960s and used on the Victoria line and on motorways. These put excessive emphasis on values of time and mean that the discounted cash flows which apply almost run out in 20 years. If we are building a line that will last 120 years, which I think it will, perhaps the noble Earl could ask his right honourable friend the Minister whether there should not be a reappraisal of how we look at these schemes, and to bring forward a different scheme from the one that is used now—which employs lots of people but produces nonsense results. I can assure him that that is the case.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord has made this point more than once. I suspect that it has some validity, and at a suitable opportunity I will discuss it with ministerial colleagues.

Cycling: Accidents

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Thursday 8th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

Does the noble Earl agree that there is antipathy between all classes of road users? For example, bus drivers hate cyclists, pedestrians hate cyclists and motorists hate lorries. However, it is important that the classification of what PCSOs and local authority wardens are able to do is reviewed, and ensure that all chief constables and wardens have the powers, which I do not believe they do, to intervene not just in cycling on pavements but also in all sorts of moving traffic offences.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Question is essentially about cycling, and in respect of offences, I have already said that education is more important than enforcement, especially with youngsters. Frankly, it is not realistic to issue a fixed penalty notice to a 10 year-old.

Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2011

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 6th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, before the Motion is put to the House, I should like to draw to the attention of the House the fact that the report of the Merits Committee on this order was published last Thursday. Nine noble Lords then debated the order yesterday in the Moses Room so we all expected that some notice would be taken. This morning the order appeared on the Order Paper and so there has been no opportunity to consider what was said in the Moses Room. This does not reflect well on the House or show that the Government really value the opinions of Peers before they place matters on the Order Paper.

Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2011

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 5th December 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Bradshaw]

I believed that the 20p incentive was paid to the people who refine used cooking oil. Now the noble Earl is saying it is available to a wider group of people. It has probably got through to him that the Committee is not overjoyed about this piece of legislation. Will he go back, check this and consider whether producers should be guaranteed to get at least 20 pence? If they get more, that can be offset, but they want a guaranteed floor price.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I will write in detail to the noble Lord on the issue of used cooking oil and see if I can draft a letter that will meet his concerns. At the moment I am convinced that this is a sensible policy.

Transport: London and the Regions

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 15th November 2011 Grand Committee

[Earl Attlee]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that elucidation. The noble Lord asked whether the minimum service levels will be based on the current First Great Western timetable. The proposed approach to the specification of the services for the next Great Western franchise has yet to be developed and would anyway form part of the public consultation.

Many noble Lords have talked about the problem of slot allocation at Heathrow and public service obligations. Perhaps it would be helpful to the Committee if I carefully reiterated the positions. It would be open to the Northern Ireland Assembly to apply to the Secretary of State for Transport to impose a public service obligation on an air route from Northern Ireland to London, should it feel that a case can be made which satisfies the EU regulation on PSOs. If approved, this would permit slots to be ring-fenced at a London airport. As I said at Question Time, there is no other mechanism for the Government to intervene in the allocation of slots at Heathrow or other London airports.

It is important to note that EU regulations state that the PSO must be between two cities or regions and not between individual airports. Therefore, any PSO would have to take into account services to all five London airports. Other European states have exactly the same problems. You may have a region in France that is slightly deprived, and it might want to fly direct to Charles de Gaulle, but it cannot. It might, perhaps, have to fly to Orly and not have the benefit of going to a hub airport. We do not necessarily have a unique problem.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, suggested that we cannot leave this issue to the commercial market. It is important to note that any PSO on a service to Heathrow could be subject to legal challenge from other airlines. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, talked about the requirements in franchise rail operations, but he needs to remember that airline operations are commercial operations, not franchise operations.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Will the Minister pause there to think of what happens with the services to the Highlands and Islands of Scotland? They are not commercial. They are supported by a PSO agreement.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I was just coming on to that point. The noble Lord pointed out that PSOs already exist on air services to Scottish islands from Aberdeen and Inverness. He is correct. They are supported by the Scottish Government as lifeline services that otherwise would not be economic to operate.

[Lord Bradshaw]

They are lifeline services, but is Northern Ireland’s remaining air service to Heathrow not in the same category because, if it disappears, the region will be in real trouble? This is not a trivial point. You have got to concern yourself with regional development. Next year, Londonderry will be the European city of culture. Perhaps the air service will disappear at the same time.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I understand what the noble Lord is saying, but BMI has not been sold, and no services have been stopped yet. I think he is going ahead of himself slightly.

The noble Baroness, Lady Scott, asked about the Greater Anglia (Short) franchise and customer satisfaction. Although this is a relatively short franchise, she will recognise that Abellio has offered commitments that will improve customer experience. She also asked several other very detailed questions, and I fear that I will have to write to her on those points.

Abellio plans to continue to run all those services that are crowded today or are likely to become crowded in the next five years in the formation planned by NXEA. In almost all cases where crowding occurs today, the trains concerned are being operated at the maximum formation allowed by the infrastructure, so it is an infrastructure limitation, not a rolling stock limitation.

Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Empey, touched on the Thames estuary airport. We welcome the input from the mayor and Lord Foster, and their suggestions will be considered alongside the many other contributions about our future aviation policy. However, such a project would be hugely complex. Detailed consideration would be needed on a range of issues, including airspace capacity, safety and access to the airport as well as costs and funding.

Biodiesel

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, Treasury Ministers confirmed at the 2011 Budget that the duty differential for biodiesel produced from used cooking oil will end on 31 March 2012, as was always intended. It is appropriate that support for waste-derived biofuels in transport will be provided through double rewards as part of the renewable transport fuels obligation. That, of course, has a sharper sustainability focus. By providing two renewable transport certificates per litre of waste-derived fuel, the UK is moving away from the guaranteed return of 20p provided by the duty differential for biodiesel produced from used cooking oil and moving towards an environment where the competitive market decides the price that will be awarded for each renewable transport fuel certificate. But each RTFC will still be worth around 20p.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Will the noble Earl turn his mind to the fact that the renewable transport fuel certificates, to which he has referred, are tradable assets? They have been often been of no value at all. Anyone investing money in this young industry of processing used cooking oil and other waste products face the possibility that they are being asked to invest money with no guarantee of a return whatever.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. RTFCs were traded at a nil value but that was because of an error in the drafting of the original RTFO by the previous Government. That problem has been rectified and will not recur.

Railways: Brighton to London Line

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Thursday 6th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord raised two points, the first of which is the road. One of the benefits of the proposed scheme is that it allows for the building of a bridge at a later stage should that be necessary. In fact, the scheme makes it easier to open the line, should that be necessary, because to the west of the proposed road crossing is a level crossing, which would be unacceptable if you wanted to open the railway.

The noble Lord asked about the BRPB and whether we would give it directions. No, we will not. It is not necessary. We are absolutely confident that nothing has been done that will compromise the ability to open the railway at some point in the future, should it be desirable to do so.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Will the Minister widen his consideration just beyond this line. There are a number of noble Lords who have in their areas of interest railway lines that could be reopened with advantage in the future. Surely the land concerned should be vested in Network Rail, which in July last year pronounced the Uckfield to Lewes line of strategic importance. There are many other such lines, of which one example is Oxford to Cambridge. This has been made almost impossible to open between Bedford and Cambridge because of building.

Rugby Union: Twickenham Railway Station

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 18th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am not completely sure that that is a matter for my department. However, I also understand that, ironically, although rugby union is a contact sport, it actually experiences less bad behaviour than football matches.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, today is the 776th day since Governments on either side have ordered any new rolling stock for our railways. In circumstances where noble Lords in this Chamber will have found it extraordinarily difficult to get on to trains, and many people are crowded out, how are we going to show the world that we have a railway that is worth using unless some new rolling stock is ordered very urgently?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend has made some good points and we are working on them.

Transport: Penzance and Isles of Scilly Ferry Service

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 22nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we understand that a decision is sought by the end of March. While I can make no guarantees, we appreciate the timing constraints and are doing all that we can to avoid a further delay. The noble Lord talked about the population of the Isles of Scilly. There are about 2,000 people, and the investment will represent £28,500 per resident. The noble Lord’s points about the sea-keeping quality of the ships are well made.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Will the Minister consider two points? First, does he imagine that the Government in Scotland would consider cutting off the Scottish islands, many of which have smaller populations but are served by regular ships? Secondly, has he considered the employment implications both in the Scilly Isles and in Penzance that will arise from any failure to bring this matter to a conclusion?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, as I said in my initial Answer, we are committed to continuing the shipping link. One of the reasons for doing so is those employment opportunities on the Isles of Scilly that rely on that link.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, I support what the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said. There is certainly scope for economy. I did not agree with the previous Government’s decision to transfer protection of bus and coach passengers to the Rail Passengers’ Council. However, the work of the council is concentrated mainly on issues such as punctuality. It has produced extremely good reports on things that irritate users such as huge queues at booking offices and the way in which ticket machines baffle many users and often do not work. These issues are important to people and I cannot think who will regulate them for less money. Transferring the functions to the Office of Rail Regulation, which is full of lawyers, will raise the cost of doing this work.

I will say one further thing in defence of Passenger Focus. It has developed a system of statistical analysis by which it can take very little in the way of raw information and turn it into statistically robust results. I am all in favour of economy, but I am also in favour of having a body to look after the interests of passengers that is functional and that rests on a secure base. I and most passengers would regret anything that abolished this body.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I was surprised when the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, did not move his amendment, so it is a great pleasure for me to respond to him. He and I have debated together over many years. He has accepted some of my amendments and taken others away. It is a great pleasure to continue our debate, albeit with our roles reversed.

The noble Lord’s amendment seeks to remove Passenger Focus from Schedule 5 to the Bill. The appearance in the Bill of Passenger Focus does not reflect the view that the interests of passengers are unimportant. We are clear that passengers are the only reason why we run a public transport system. This was reflected in the public bodies review, which concluded that Passenger Focus should be retained but substantially reformed to focus on the core role of protecting passengers, thereby allowing a reduction in the cost to the taxpayer.

Noble Lords may see this as a first step towards cutting the budget of Passenger Focus to the point where it is no longer capable of being an effective voice for passengers. I reassure them that this is not the case. We fully accept the need for a powerful and effective passenger advocate. This is reinforced by EU provisions that require us to have a properly independent complaints body to which rail passengers can turn. Passenger Focus plays that role.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked whether this was not simply an opportunity to weaken and abolish a body that has been critical of the Government in the past. The answer is no. We want to maintain an effective passenger advocate because that is the best way of ensuring that transport operators are held properly to account. This is an effective opportunity to ensure that that role is performed in a robust and cost-effective way.

The Government had originally listed Passenger Focus in Schedule 5 to enable possible changes to its functions. Further work and our discussions with Passenger Focus have clarified that we can significantly reduce the cost to the taxpayer without recourse to legislative change through Schedule 5. For example, efficiencies can be derived by reducing the scope of Passenger Focus’s research and survey work. My noble friend Lord Taylor has added his name to Amendment 98 on that basis to support the removal of Passenger Focus from Schedule 5, which we hope will be welcomed by the Committee. However, the governance changes that we intend require its inclusion in Schedule 3, so we cannot support Amendment 75, which the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, was unable to move on Monday. Amendment 160A, which would remove Passenger Focus from Schedule 7, is effectively redundant in the light of the Government’s decision to remove Schedule 7 from the Bill.

I hope that I have been able to reassure the Committee and the noble Lord that we are not planning to leave passengers without proper protection and I hope that the Committee will accept Amendment 98.

Railways: Light Rail Vehicles

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned the Parry People Mover vehicle. We will encourage such developments. My officials in the department work closely with Mr Parry and they are working hard to resolve some of the technical difficulties.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, it took two to three years for the department to approve one vehicle which, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, said, has proved very satisfactory in service. Will the noble Earl ensure that, in the future, his department and the safety authorities get a move on and get something done?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend has rightly raised an issue about the time taken for approval. However, I have to say that Mr Parry is a bit of a pioneer. The vehicle comprises some very new and pioneering technology so there are a lot of issues to be resolved.

Roads: Charging

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 1st February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to introduce road pricing for lorries in the United Kingdom.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we plan to introduce heavy goods vehicle road user charging to ensure a fairer arrangement for UK hauliers. We are still finalising details of the proposed scheme, which will include off-setting measures to help UK hauliers. The scheme must operate within relevant EU legislation and apply to both UK and foreign hauliers. Primary legislation will be required.

[Lord Bradshaw]

I thank the noble Earl for that reply, but why are Her Majesty's Government introducing a paper-based system for charging for road use, which will be both expensive to operate and open to abuse, when all the other countries in Europe have adopted or are adopting electronic systems, which have the scope to be adapted to deal with congestion and environmental damage?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his question. First, we have not fixed which scheme we are going to adopt, but it is unlikely that we will rely purely on a paper vignette. EU states have indeed moved from paper to electronic vignettes. Various possibilities are still being considered by the Government, but it is most likely that HGVs will be monitored for compliance by the use of automatic number plate reading linked to a database.

Sustainable Local Transport

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 19th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, a heritage railway could bid for a scheme. Although it might not be able to bid for its operating costs, it might be able to bid for certain facilities. The noble Lord will have to look closely at the criteria, given that some things cannot be bid for under the LTSF, because they relate to other types of grant. I very much hope that the noble Lord is successful in finding an alternative location for the legislative powers associated with the Railway Heritage Committee. We will have to see how that unfolds; it is a matter for my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach. I think I am correct in saying that we have no plans at all for road pricing in this Parliament. We have made more detailed statements elsewhere, but it is not on the cards. However, the noble Lord will be aware that it is possible to have a local scheme, such as the mayor’s congestion charge scheme.

[Lord Bradshaw]

I thank the Minister for what he has said. It puts me in mind of a period about 13 years ago when I attended several presentations by the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, who is not here. He provided documents like this White Paper, although his had more photographs, but in nearly every case they did not produce what was set out in them. Therefore, I ask the Government to think very hard about whether the promises will be delivered and how they can be delivered.

I particularly want to know about the assessment criteria, which I have read. This document strikes me as more or less the usual stuff that we get served up by the Department for Transport because although there are a lot of warm words about saving carbon, for example, at the end it mentions the method of assessment that the department will use and—surprise, surprise—there is a reference to it being in line with the DfT’s appraisal framework, NATA. We all know that that is used to measure small time savings, which are then put together. There may be lots of people—say, 10,000—who save half a minute each, and the department has some magic way of turning these into money. However, it is fool’s gold because no one can predict whether they are going to save half a minute or a minute on a journey. People need to get to wherever they are going and they allow time to get there. Therefore, I ask the Minister to read the assessment criteria very carefully and to impress on his colleagues in the department the need to include achievable things and common-sense ways of measuring the benefits of these many initiatives. If they are all delivered, they will be useful, but I am afraid that here we have a blueprint for a great deal of bureaucracy.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I did not manage to write down the noble Lord’s last point, so I shall answer it first. This is not a blueprint for bureaucracy; it is a blueprint for doing things more efficiently. The noble Lord initially said that it would not be productive. However, it is for local authorities to deliver the scheme and it is for the department to assess the scheme and fund it. The noble Lord talked about this being the usual stuff that is served up. I am a little disappointed about that but I say to him that every scheme has to meet two criteria: it has to provide for both growth and carbon reduction. A scheme may provide for carbon reduction indirectly but it has to show carbon reduction as well as growth. As for the noble Lord’s point about NATA and the detailed assessment, he has been on at this Government and the previous Government for some time about this but I assure him that my department is working on it.

Aviation: Hand-luggage Restrictions

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 12th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a good point; it is one that I put to the Musicians’ Union when I was talking to it. One problem is the environmental conditions in the hold. Understandably, musicians want to carry their instruments in the cabin rather than place them in the hold.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, I discussed this issue last night with the manager of a London orchestra and she said that there are generally no problems with scheduled flights, but that all the problems arise with the low-cost airlines. She also made the point—I wonder whether the Minister will give it serious consideration—that the instrumentalists frequently see large items of hand baggage taken on planes that are far outside the regulations. The Government should deal with that.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend makes an important point about low-cost airlines. This morning, when I looked at the appropriate websites and did a Google search, it was very telling how different the story was for a very large airline as compared with a low-cost one.

Transport: Mobility Scooters

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 12th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes an important point. A considerable amount of money has been spent on ensuring that all buses are wheelchair accessible, but there will obviously be a limit to how many wheelchairs—probably only one—can be accommodated at any one time. I will discuss the issue with my officials after the debate.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Will the noble Lord acknowledge that the people who have to deal with this problem—bus drivers, bus conductors and train staff—need to know whether or not a mobility scooter can be carried, as there are some very big ones that cannot be carried? Can he please ensure that scooters are clearly marked in some way to make sure that they can go on public transport?

[Earl Attlee]

My noble friend makes an extremely good point. We are considering the feasibility of a passport and kitemarking scheme, as well as other options, and will make an announcement when a decision has been made.

Roads: Long and Heavy Vehicles

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 1st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we discussed lorry road-user charging recently at Question Time. We are working on it and will announce on it in due course.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Can the Minister assure us that road safety will play a very prominent part in his consideration, because these lorries will not be confined to the motorway network? Will he please tell us, through the Library or however, how many prosecutions have been brought against HGVs—heavy goods vehicles—for contravening the weight restrictions on most of our roads?

Railways: Public Procurement

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 30th November 2010 Grand Committee

[Lord Bradshaw]

I wonder whether the noble Lord might reflect on the fact that it is the load factors which the department insists on that make the roscos move all the seats closer together, so that they meet the target set by the department.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I will certainly reflect upon that and have a chat with my officials afterwards.

The noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, spoke of future studies in other areas of public procurement. We look forward to her results with interest and we will certainly take note of them. I am confident that the public procurement processes adopted for rail will continue to represent best practice and provide transparency and equal treatment for bidders. The rail franchise specifications which are procured will evolve and reflect the results of the consultation to provide an environment where operators have the freedom to provide improved value for money and the improvement that passengers want.

Railways: Investment

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Thursday 25th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord referred to electrification past Oxford. He will have to be patient for our determination on the IEP project, but he will not have to wait too long. He asked where the coaches would be constructed. He will know that EU procurement rules prevent us from guaranteeing that coaches will be built in the UK. Personally, I hope that they will be built in the UK, but we will have to see what happens.

[Lord Bradshaw]

I congratulate the Minister on the Statement, which, over the whole country, will be gladly accepted by most railwaymen. I deplore the sentiments expressed on the other side of the House, as this seems to be a great day for railways.

I have a few questions, however. The Statement refers to electrification in the north-west. It is important that Leeds is also included, because services across the Pennines are much slower than they would be and electrification between the west and east coasts makes an enormous amount of sense. The overcrowding of existing services, particularly around Manchester, is a blot on the record of the previous Government, because the crowding standards there are totally unacceptable.

Will the Minister confirm my arithmetic that something like 2,450 extra carriages are included? Reference is made to investments on the east coast main line and the Midland main line. I should like to know the nature of those improvements, because it is not very clear from the Statement. I was concerned about the Secretary of State ruling out the option of a wholesale refurbishment of the Intercity 125 fleet, some of which dates back to the 1970s. I am reliably informed by people in the rolling stock industry that those vehicles and the Mark IV vehicles on the east coast main line are quite capable of being turned into new vehicles, as has already been done for the Wrexham and Shropshire railway. We ought to be quite certain that we cannot use them, because their owners—the rolling stock companies—may lease them to a large number of open-access operators. I believe that any big increase in open-access operations will undermine the franchising process.

The noble Lord talked about bringing the journey time from Cardiff to London to under two hours, but it was under two hours in the 1980s, so that does not amount to much of an improvement. It is the timetable that needs altering—it has been packed with stops here, there and everywhere, making the journey to south Wales much longer than it need be. While we are on the subject of south Wales, my most anxious concerns are about the Severn Tunnel, which is the only way in and out of south Wales. I know that my noble friend in another place will be seeing the Minister on Monday to talk to her about the urgent necessity of doubling the line from Swindon to Kemble, so that there is a viable route between south Wales and London.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my noble friend makes several important points. I shall just touch on some of the more important ones. He talked about the future of the HST 125 trains, the possibility of refurbishing them and the possible undesirable effects of those trains staying in the market. There are uses for that rolling stock in the future. One difficulty about that rolling stock is that its operating costs would be higher, while there might be a reliability question. The noble Lord knows how damaging breakdowns are on the system.

The noble Lord talked about the redoubling of the Swindon to Kemble line. That is a good scheme but it is not in CP4. I am making absolutely no commitment, but it could be a CP5 issue. He also talked about the time saving that arises from electrification. He needs to remember that that route is much more intensively used but that electric trains will give greater acceleration, so there will be a big benefit. However, we will keep the timetabling issues under review and make sure that we are not losing any benefits that we could gain.

Transport: Bus Stops

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 22nd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, my officials take great interest and care in drafting replies to all Parliamentary Questions. During their research, it was discovered that there is an error in rule 240 of the Highway Code: it does not list bus stop clearways as somewhere you must stop. However, at the next printing that error will be corrected.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, will the noble Lord consider the fact that the police do not generally prosecute and the chances of them doing so are slight? Will he further consider that local authorities not only have the power, but that they keep the money they collect in fines for their own purposes? Will he ensure that local authorities are written to in order to underline the fact that they have the power and the money to effectively police such places as bus stops and disabled parking spaces?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the police get involved where a parked vehicle causes an obstruction or a safety problem and they can have the vehicle towed away. Local authorities keep the revenue raised from parking fines, but they have to be hypothecated for transport-related projects.

Roads: Charging

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Thursday 18th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

Will the noble Earl also consider the number of accidents that are caused in this country by foreign-registered vehicles? They of course pay no tax, they use fuel from outside the country and they burden the health service with a lot more work.

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord makes an important point, of which my department is well aware. However, the objective of the lorry road-user charging scheme is to ensure a competitive and free market for all operators, whether UK or foreign.

Transport: Bus Industry

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 2nd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Bradshaw for introducing this Question for Short Debate. He made his points very well with his usual expert style, as all noble Lords would expect.

Buses provide an essential public service and improve the quality of many people’s lives, providing cost-effective gateways to work, shopping, education and leisure. The best bus networks are built on partnership. Local government needs to work closely with operators, community organisations and the travelling public to ensure a local transport network that works for everyone. Transport operators need to listen and respond to the views of their passengers.

Central government needs to provide an appropriate legislative framework that enables innovation and creativity from bus companies and provides local authorities with the flexibility to use their local knowledge to support their bus networks in a fair and logical way. The traditional bus service with a fixed timetable is not always the right answer. Flexible, demand-responsive solutions, often provided by communities themselves, can be the better, more efficient and cost-effective option.

As I am sure your Lordships will be aware, the Competition Commission is currently investigating the bus market. As an independent organisation, and thanks to its information-gathering powers, the Competition Commission is best placed to come to a decision as to whether there are features of the local bus market that prevent, restrict or distort competition. During the inquiry, the Competition Commission is looking at a wide variety of issues and evidence relevant to the assessment of competition, including the profitability of bus operators. The Government will await the outcome of that inquiry with interest and subsequently decide on whether any changes to the legislative framework for buses are needed. In answer to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, the Competition Commission is due to report next summer, so it is sensible to wait before deciding whether changes to legislation need to be made.

My noble friend Lord Shipley talked about the future benefits of new technology. He speaks with great authority and I will certainly study Hansard carefully tomorrow in order to pick up all his points.

One of the first things that the Government announced was an additional £15 million investment in low-carbon buses though a second round of the green bus fund. This will help bus operators and local authorities to buy around 170 new hybrid and electric vehicles. This builds on the success of the first round of the green bus fund where, in 2009, £30 million was allocated to help to buy around 350 new low-carbon buses. As a result of both rounds, by April 2012, there will be around 500 new low-carbon buses on the streets of England and we hope that this will encourage other operators to make the switch.

Contrary to some predictions, we are not calling time on the concessionary travel scheme. Instead, concessionary bus travel will remain, so that older people can continue to enjoy the greater freedom and independence that the scheme gives them. However, we are looking at ways of ensuring that we get the best value for money from the scheme. We are currently consulting on reforms that lead to simplified and more efficient reimbursement arrangements and reduce the scope for disputes between local authorities and bus operators. This will ensure that the scheme remains sustainable in the future.

The Government have consistently said that reducing the country’s deficit is our main priority. Reductions in public spending will have to form part of this. The Chancellor announced that from 2012-13 bus subsidy will be reduced by 20 per cent. While I appreciate that any cuts will be unwelcome, it is only right that bus subsidy takes a share of the cuts—and this cut is lower than for most other local transport revenue grants. However, I fully accept the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, about the need for buses for the less well-off. That is precisely why we have left the BSOG in place. Following the Chancellor’s announcement of 20 October, my honourable friend Norman Baker spoke to the Confederation of Passenger Transport UK, which represents the bus industry. It was hopeful that, in general, the small reduction in BSOG could be absorbed without fares having to increase.

The Chancellor also announced that the majority of local transport resource funding will now be paid through formula grant. This will simplify funding by moving from around 26 grant streams to just four.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, touched on the administration of funding. It is for local authorities to decide how this funding is spent according to their priorities. We have also established a Local Sustainable Transport Fund worth £560 million to help local authorities support economic growth and reduce carbon emissions. Even after the spending review, the public funding allocated to buses will remain at significant levels.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies, made important points about the importance of punctuality. He was absolutely right in his explanation. Today's passengers demand and deserve a public transport system that is efficient and modern, and that meets the challenge of using new technology. Some operators have invested in technology that can tell them the location of their buses at any given time. This gives operators a wealth of data to help deliver a good service to passengers, and sharing data brings other benefits. Sharing data with local authorities will help to identify traffic management issues that are making it difficult for buses to run to time, both on a day-to-day basis and in the long term, by benchmarking punctuality and enabling agreement on joint actions to help deliver the punctual services that passengers want. We know that real-time information can make a big difference in encouraging potential passengers to choose the bus. It certainly does for me. That is why we are supporting operators who share data with local authorities so that they can provide real-time information systems, by paying them a higher rate of bus service operators grant.

A further example of technology offering real improvements for passengers is TfL's Countdown system. This provides real-time bus arrival information for passengers throughout London, using electronic signs at bus shelters. From 2011, a new, improved Countdown will be introduced that will show bus arrival predictions for every one of London's 19,000 bus stops. As well as using electronic signs at bus shelters, it will take advantage of a range of information channels, including text messages and the web.

One of the most important technological advances towards a more joined-up transport network is smart and integrated ticketing. We want this new technology to be rolled out more widely across England, so we have provided £20 million of grant funding to the nine biggest English urban areas outside London, and have offered a higher level of bus service operators grant payment to support this. I am pleased to say that some major bus operators are in the process of rolling out smart ticketing across their fleet, but we are eager to see even more achieved, particularly in terms of integration between modes and services. The vision of my honourable friend Norman Baker is for seamless travel on one card throughout the country, whether on the bus in Bristol, the Tube in London or the Metro in Newcastle—a card that lets you hire a bike or join a car club, that can be topped up in shops, online or by phone, and that makes travel easier and cheaper.

I have several questions to answer. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, asked why cuts to bus subsidies are being made. I have talked about the need to reduce the budget deficit, but the saving is 28 per cent lower than that being made from other transport revenue grants, reflecting the benefits that bus services bring to the economy and the environment, as well as the fact that many people rely on bus services to reach education and healthcare.

The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, also asked about consultation with small operators. Representatives of local government and the bus industry in the Reimbursement Working Group were actively consulted throughout the research process and the development of the draft DfT reimbursement guidance. The Confederation of Passenger Transport, the trade organisation for the bus industry that represents both small and large operators, was a member of the working group.

The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, also asked about the Competition Commission's inquiry. The commission is a public body, entirely independent of government, and all of its inquiries are undertaken following a referral by another authority, most often the Office of Fair Trading, which referred this market inquiry in January of this year. It is important to note that the commission's legal role is clearly focused on competition issues rather than on the wider public interest.

[Lord Bradshaw]

I wonder whether the Minister will pause there for a moment. The Competition Commission is very much concerned with the definition of a market in any field. The commission’s approach to the bus industry has been very narrow indeed—for example, it excludes consideration of the fact that the car is a competitor with the bus. However, I do not believe that that is logical because people often have the choice of using a car or a bus, and not bringing the two together is perverse.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I think that I touched on the point that the Competition Commission is looking at the profitability of the bus industry. However, I will draw all the noble Lord’s points to the attention of my honourable friend Mr Norman Baker.

I return to my answer. On the other hand, this Government are committed to getting the best deal for bus passengers and taxpayers alike. With around £2.5 billion of taxpayers’ money spent on bus services and passengers each year, it is only right, as in every other area of public spending, that we should question whether the bus market is delivering the best service for bus passengers and the best value for the taxpayer.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked about quality contracts. He will know that the legislation is still in place and that local authorities are free to use quality contracts when they wish to do so. We are already seeing plans in west and south Yorkshire. We think that partnership is a better approach but, ultimately, it is a matter for the local authorities to make a decision based on their circumstances.

I acknowledge that there are big challenges confronting the industry. Beyond any question, these are testing times for an industry that matters and that makes a difference, but it is an industry that, with our support, can grow and flourish.

Transport: Investment

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 26th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, I am not going to indulge in a lot of criticism, but I will ask a few technical questions, which I hope the Minister will address.

First, much of the paper is made up of words like “appraisal” and “value for money”, yet the system that the Government have adopted—the new approach to transport appraisal—is hopeless. I say this as an economist. The new approach puts value on a lot of valueless things, such as small time savings of a minute, half a minute or less, and it needs bringing up to date. Also, other road users such as bus users or cyclists need to be treated as valuable people. The new approach tends to assume that only car drivers are valuable people and therefore ascribes a lower value of time to those other users.

Secondly, will the Minister tell us something about hard-shoulder running, which is mentioned in the Statement? We do not yet know whether hard-shoulder running has proved to be thoroughly satisfactory from the point of view of both road safety and access by the emergency services to accidents.

Thirdly, I want to mention the PFI scheme, which is referred to in the Statement. Did the Minister see in the Sunday papers that the M6 toll road, which was built by PFI, is in considerable trouble because people will not pay to use a toll road when there is a free road beside it? The only solution, to my mind, is to introduce a system of road charging on our trunk motorways. Otherwise, there will not be many PFI investors.

Fourthly, road maintenance is in a disgraceful condition, and the Government should direct more attention to keeping the road network that we have in good and serviceable order rather than necessarily trying to expand it, because the road network does not work.

Fifthly, there are now lots of utility companies in this country, and all of them have near freedom to dig up the roads when they want and cause massive delays and damage to the road surface. There is supposed to be a system of traffic management, under which the utilities are supposed to apply to the local authority for permission to dig holes. Whenever they want to dig such holes, however, they put up a big sign saying “Emergency”, “Danger” or whatever. That does not mean that they do the job any more quickly, but it allows them to override the provisions in the Transport Act 2005 to regulate the use of the highway.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, it fills me with dread when the noble Lord says that he will ask me a few technical questions.

The noble Lord referred to some of the terms of our assessment and things like that. We need to ensure that the schemes with the best value for money, the best benefit to society and the best economic growth are the ones that go forward. The noble Lord has expressed concern many times, in both this Parliament and the previous one, about NATA. We are reviewing that process.

The noble Lord talked about hard-shoulder running. He will be aware of, I think, the M42 where the Highways Agency has trialled hard-shoulder running, which has been shown to work. I understand that the statistics have shown a safety improvement. Because it has been shown to work, there will be more hard-shoulder running schemes.

The noble Lord mentioned the M6 toll road, which is perhaps not getting all the toll income that it should. I remind the noble Lord that the M6 toll road is not PFI-funded but is a private road.

The noble Lord mentioned the condition of local roads, which is a matter of great concern. I think that the ICE’s State of the Nation: Infrastructure 2010 report states that the Highways Agency’s strategic roads are in quite good shape but local roads have serious problems.

Finally, the noble Lord also talked about the utilities. All noble Lords will be aware of the problem of utilities digging up the roads, sometimes in ways that are completely inconvenient. We are aware of that, but I will draw the noble Lord’s question to the attention of my ministerial colleagues.

Railways: North-west

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Monday 18th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, we welcome the work carried out by Network Rail in compiling its route utilisation strategy. It provides a valuable input into the work to be undertaken by the Department for Transport to determine the outputs the railway needs to deliver during 2014-19 and beyond. My comments about electrification remain.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is disgraceful that, after 13 years of Labour rule, 10 transferred coaches have been sent to the northern franchise, 182 were promised in the rolling stock plan and, that under a Labour Government, an order for 200 multiple unit trains was cancelled? Can he please press on his right honourable friend the Secretary of State the need to pay attention to the great northern cities of this country and actually do something for them?

[Earl Attlee]

The noble Lord makes important points. The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, talked about increased passenger demand in the north-west, and Manchester in particular has some serious problems. However, capacity is constrained by the infrastructure—we need to do something about the northern hub—as well as by the rolling stock.

Parking and Traffic Offences

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 6th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, unfortunately, this is a Question about parking charges, not the congestion charge.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Would the Minister go for a more imaginative solution? France has just announced that it is implementing a road-charging scheme for lorries and Germany did so two years ago. Why do we keep saying that we will not have a scheme in this country for charging foreign vehicles for using our roads?

[Earl Attlee]

Again, this is a Question about parking charges, but such matters are under review.

Government: Ministerial Cars

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 5th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, from time to time that can happen. It is a very good point, but sometimes a Minister may be attending other meetings or events when he does not want to carry classified material, which is taken straight from his department to his home.

[Lord Bradshaw]

What do the Government anticipate will be the savings over a couple of years, say, of the lesser use of ministerial cars?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, in 2009-10, expenditure was £11.2 million; in 2010-11, it will be reduced to £7.6 million and in 2011-12 it will be down to £5.6 million. We hope to keep it at about that level.

Roads: Speed Cameras

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 5th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the first thing to remember is that local authorities are free to use cameras as much as they wish and as they see appropriate. We will also be carefully monitoring the casualty and accident rates, as will local authorities and the police. Local authorities will then take whatever action is necessary to continue the welcome downward trend in road accidents that the previous Administration achieved.

[Lord Bradshaw]

My Lords, with the advent of localism, whereby local authorities will be free to take whatever action they like in several areas, will the Government ensure that some objective monitoring of what happens is maintained, because many of the people doing the monitoring are parti pris to either the car lobby, the cycling lobby or the pedestrian lobby—all, as it were, peddling their own views?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, if we are to continue the downward trend in road traffic accidents, it is vital that we monitor the accident rate and its causes and contributory factors, whether that is speed that, if not illegal, is excessive or whether it is just plain exceeding the speed limit.

Railways: Crossrail

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 23rd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, no decision has been made to reduce the scope of Crossrail. A key point of the Crossrail project is the length of the trains and of the platforms. To alter that would impact on the funding stream for the project.

[Lord Bradshaw]

I wonder whether the Minister will reflect a little more on the scope for reducing costs. We very much support the central area of Crossrail—and of Thameslink, which I used to call Thameslink 2000 and which the party opposite did very little to advance when they were in government. Will the Minister look very closely at the western extension to Crossrail? It does not provide an express service from Heathrow to the City, it does not do anything to ease overcrowding at Euston and it does not provide a satisfactory service to places such as Maidenhead, Reading and Oxford.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the noble Lord has great experience in these matters and I will draw his comments to the attention of my ministerial colleagues.

Railways: Network Rail

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Wednesday 16th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bradshaw]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals they have for the future of Network Rail.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government are committed to making changes to Network Rail’s corporate governance to ensure that the company is properly accountable to its customers. The Government are in the process of considering potential forms that that change might take, and no decisions have yet been made.

[Lord Bradshaw]

I thank my noble friend for that Answer. In view of the fact that the Office of Rail Regulation has written to the remuneration committee of Network Rail about its indifferent performance during the past year, does he agree that it would be inappropriate for the directors of that company to take bonuses for that performance?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, the Government do not have the power to veto the award of bonuses, but we hope to make it clear to Network Rail’s board that excessive payments are not acceptable in the wider economic climate.

Transport: Savings

Debate between Lord Bradshaw and Earl Attlee

Tuesday 15th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his question. I can reassure him that the Highways Agency will take its fair share of reductions in the DfT’s direct spend, including £37 million from the deferral of planned spend in 2010-11 on a small number of Highways Agency schemes. Together, these savings represent a reduction which is in proportion to that being made to Network Rail and local government funding.

[Lord Bradshaw]

Does my noble friend the Minister recollect that two weeks ago, in the debate on the Loyal Address, I put forward a large number of economy schemes which do not affect front-line services? I have had no response to this and I would obviously like one. When people take part in debates in your Lordships’ House, can they expect prompt and proper answers from the Government?

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I hope to encourage the usual channels to give us a major transport debate, when I will be in a position to answer all the noble Lord’s questions.