House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill

Lord Blencathra Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 12th March 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Blencathra]

33: After Clause 1, insert the following new Clause—
“Lords Spiritual(1) A maximum of five Church of England bishops may sit in the House of Lords.(2) Of those five bishops, one must be the Archbishop of Canterbury, one must be the Archbishop of York, and the remaining three must be nominated by the Synod of the Church of England.(3) No bishop may sit in the House of Lords beyond the end of the Parliamentary Session in which they turn 70 years old.”Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment reduces the number of bishops sitting in the House of Lords from 26 to five.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 33 in my name, which would reduce the number of Bishops in the House from 26 to five: the most reverend Primates the Archbishops of Canterbury and York and three other right reverend Prelates nominated by the synod of the Church of England. I am delighted to see the right reverend Prelate in his place—he has booked his slot among my remaining three by being here tonight.

I accept that this is not in the Bill, and nor was it in the Labour Party manifesto, but spending perhaps 20 or 30 minutes on this will be worthwhile, and I cannot see any other way to raise the topic. Naturally, I expect all Front Benches to keep a million miles away from this subject. I shall be very brief and leave it to other noble Lords to speak in favour of or against this probing amendment.

I shall give the House some statistics for consideration. The number of Church of England baptisms in 2023 was 67,800. The average Sunday attendance is about 700,000. The average Christmas attendance is about 2.3 million. Of course, we have 26 Bishops and an electorate of 48.2 million people, as of the last election. Therefore, there is one Bishop per 27,000 people at attending church on Sunday. There is one Bishop per 88,500 people at Christmas attendance. The maximum size of a constituency is 77,000.

Last year, the daily attendance in this House was 397. Of course, we do not have constituencies and neither do the Bishops, but the number of Peers who attend divided into the electorate would mean one Peer for every 121,000 electors. But, even with Christmas attendance, we have one Bishop for every 88,000 Church of England attendees.

I accept that it would not take an expert statistician to find fault with my conclusions from these statistics, which I admit are highly flawed, but it seems to me that we are overrepresented by Bishops in this House and I leave it to other noble Lords to offer a view for or against that view. I beg to move.

[Viscount Hailsham (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendment 48 in my name and the consequential Amendment 49. Perhaps I might begin by saying that I am not making any personal criticism of any of the present Lords spiritual. Most, and perhaps almost all, are important contributors to our debates. However, in a debate of this kind, we have to ask the question: on what basis do the Lords spiritual sit here? My suggestion to the House is that we should examine the criteria and ask ourselves whether they are well founded.

The objection to hereditary Peers is very similar to the objection to the Lords spiritual. In the case of hereditary Peers, while both the pool of candidates and the electorate are small, there are, at least on the Conservative Benches, both hustings and elections. But the way in which individuals become Bishops is very far from transparent, and there is no filter of elections and hustings. Moreover, the pool of candidates for the episcopacy is a very small one, and indeed the selectorate is even smaller. The process itself is very discreet.

Once an individual becomes a fully fledged bishop, that person, subject to gender preferences, has a very good chance of becoming a Member of this House. It is, in short, a case of the Rt Rev Buggins. In the case of the two Archbishops and the Bishops of London, Westminster and Durham, membership of this House is automatic—a self-perpetuating oligarchy. That is obviously not a good way to constitute our legislature.

So one has to ask: what about the tests of suitability and propriety? Most of the Committee agree that such tests are important. These debates—the last three days—have shown that the Committee values the role of HOLAC. Some of us, in fact, want to enhance its role. But HOLAC has no role to play in assessing the propriety or suitability of individual bishops to become Members of this House. I note, incidentally, that my noble friend Lady Berridge’s Amendment 90B addresses this matter. I know of no scrutiny—certainly none of a publicly transparent kind—that addresses the question of the propriety or suitability of appointment.

Then there is regional representation. Again, that is an issue viewed as important by most of this Committee. The Lords spiritual are drawn exclusively from dioceses in England—there are none from Scotland, none from Wales and none from Northern Ireland. So one has to ask: on what basis are the Lords spiritual here? As with the hereditaries, it is historic. The Bishops once represented a landed interest—no longer. The Lords spiritual once reflected the pre-eminent national Church—no longer, I say with regret, as an Anglican who regularly attends my local church. This country is now a secular society and, to the extent that it is not, Anglicanism is no longer pre-eminent.

Then there is the question of numbers: 24 Bishops and two Archbishops—not, I acknowledge at once, a large proportion of the House. But, once we embark on a serious attempt to reduce numbers and refresh our membership—and if, as I suggest, it is very hard to discern reasons of principle to justify the presence of the Lords spiritual in this House—I am afraid that the occupants of the episcopal Bench become candidates for removal. I know that will not be the consequence of the Bill, but I hope that we will be prepared to debate the issue with honesty and candour.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, if I may mix my metaphors, someone had to put on the suicide vest and poke his head above the parapet by putting down this highly controversial amendment for a drastic reduction in the number of Bishops. It had the desired effect: in a debate of one hour and 10 minutes, we have had some very interesting speeches and suggestions for a possible way forward in looking at other faiths in another amendment.

We have had the benefit of three very powerful speeches. My noble friend Lord Hailsham made a very powerful speech about the removal of all Bishops. That was immediately countermanded by an equally powerful speech by the noble Lord, Lord Moore of Etchingham, who made the finest case for retaining the Bishops that I have ever heard; he mentioned the line—in fact, the truth—that we must not disturb the settlement. The third excellent speech was from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Sheffield, who made the valid point that having only five Bishops would make it impossible for them to work here. I accept that, but he also said that the Bishops were open to discussion on their possible numbers in any future settlement or change to the House of Lords.

My noble friend Lord Dundee wanted to reduce the number of Bishops from 26 to 20. Forgive me, but I cannot see the big difference that that would make. My noble friend Lady Berridge called for a check on the propriety of Bishops. I have no intention of entering into that detail, but she spoke at length on adding other faiths, which is the subject of my Amendment 34.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

I discussed Christians.

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Amendment 34 intends to add representatives of five other faiths, so I accept that our amendments are not exactly the same. She talked about lots of other churches and religions not being represented. That is something I was going to talk about in relation to my next amendment, if I moved it.

When the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, spoke, I asked myself, “What on earth is he doing here at 9.15 pm on his birthday? It certainly can’t be to hear my speech”. I should say that, on my next amendment, a colleague complained that I missed out the Church of Scotland; it was not the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, but the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness. He also made the point about including other faiths.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Llanfaes, quoted the polls. If this House or the Government were to do everything the polls wanted every time they wanted it, they would be changing policy every six months—so I do not necessarily go along with that.

I accept my noble friend Lord Strathclyde’s point that this issue needs further consideration, in the round, with further Lords reform.

I simply do not want to get into the detail of what my noble friend Lord Northbrook said; I hope he will forgive me.

At first, I thought that my noble friend Lord Strathcarron was going to support getting rid of all the Bishops, but his speech was a rather intriguing way of keeping the Bishops by criticising everything they did. But he did make the point that they make a very valuable contribution to this House.

My noble friend Lord True, the shadow Leader, made a very careful and thoughtful speech, mainly arguing for the status quo and making the point that the Bishops may be sitting on the only Benches in this House that will not be appointed by the Prime Minister in future. The Leader also made a thoughtful and wise speech, calling for wider discussion.

I was due to move the next amendment—Amendment 34—which seeks to reduce the number of Bishops to five and add five representatives of other faiths. However, given that we have had some extensive speeches tonight on adding other faiths, I may change my mind on moving that amendment. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw this amendment.

Amendment 33 withdrawn.

Scotland: Devolution

Lord Blencathra Excerpts

Wednesday 29th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Blencathra (Con)]

My Lords, I wish to concentrate on the English question—or the West Lothian question, as it was originally called when the great parliamentarian Tam Dalyell first asked it in 1977. I am afraid that the question will have to be answered sooner or later.

First, however, I support the proposals in the White Paper by the parties on further devolution but I believe that they need to go further. The Conservative Party has additional devolution proposals. I think those are the minimum that we can do and for this reason: if we do not go as far as we sensibly and safely can, there will be a demand in the next Parliament by the SNP for another referendum. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, was right as if the SNP takes more seats in the general election of 2015 and increases its numbers above 69 in the 2016 Scottish Parliament elections, another referendum is more than likely. It is probably inevitable, especially if the SNP can point out that there are some matters that were capable of devolution and we failed to devolve them. I am afraid that this matter will not have been settled for a generation, or a lifetime, as has been suggested and as we hope. It will come back again and again until the yes vote for independence finally wins.

The Barnett formula has completely outlived its usefulness and should be scrapped, as the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, has repeatedly suggested. Indeed, he has called it a “terrible mistake” and a “national embarrassment”. However, the Prime Minister made a promise to retain it and it would be fatal to renege on that promise now. I hope that the formula will decline in importance if Scotland raises more of its own expenditure. If Scotland is to get the additional powers, which it must get, and continues to get £1,600 per head of population more than England, then it is vital that England is treated fairly, which it is not at the moment. We must therefore have English votes for English laws.

Some will say, as we have just heard, that we would then create two classes of MP but we have had that for 14 years in the Commons. We have had 59 Members of Parliament from Scotland being able to vote on all matters, including issues that are English-only and nothing to do with Scotland. English MPs do not have that reciprocal right to vote on a host of Scottish matters. That has unbalanced Parliament. It is morally wrong and needs to be changed. The McKay commission stated quite firmly that:

“The constitutional principle that should be adopted for England (and England-and-Wales) is that decisions at the United Kingdom level with a separate and distinct effect for England (or for England-and-Wales) should normally be taken only with the consent of a majority of MPs … in England (or England-and-Wales)”,

as the case may be.

I consider it one of our fundamental democratic and parliamentary principles that if, as a Member of Parliament, we vote for higher taxation, student tuition fees or whatever, then we have to be accountable to our electorate in our constituencies. We have to go back there at the weekend, look them in the eye and face the consequences of our actions but that has not been the case for Scottish Members of Parliament voting on English matters for the last 14 years.

When he was Secretary of State for Health in England, the noble Lord, Lord Reid, pushed through the NHS foundation trusts with the help of Scottish MPs. Health is a devolved matter in Scotland; so is education. I think that the policy of the noble Lord, Lord Reid, on foundation trusts was jolly good but it was pushed through by a Scottish Member of Parliament with Scottish MPs’ support, when the Scottish Government and their MSPs were making it abundantly clear that they would never adopt that policy in a million years in Scotland. That cannot be right.

The list of matters devolved to the Scottish Parliament includes agriculture, forestry and fisheries, education and training, environment, health and social services, housing, law and order, local government, sport and the arts, tourism and so on. On all these matters, English MPs have no say whatever since only MSPs decide on them. When I was an MP, I did not want a say in them but it is wrong for Scottish MPs to vote on these matters when they apply to England, since they have the freedom to do as they like and are not accountable to an English electorate. What a wonderful life that must be: to have power without accountability, voting through policies applying to England knowing full well that you will not face angry constituents in your surgeries at the weekend. That is why, for the last 14 years, English Members of Parliament were second-class citizens in the House of Commons Chamber, where everyone should be an equal. We already have a two-tier House of Commons and that inequity cannot continue.

There is an answer to Tam Dalyell’s West Lothian question. It is to implement English votes for English laws. England does not want piecemeal regional devolution. The noble Lord, Lord Prescott, tried regional devolution in the north-east and it was rejected by 78% of the electorate. I say to him that it was rejected not because the powers were grossly inadequate but because the majority of people, while feeling detached from Westminster, trusted it a lot more than they did politicians in Newcastle—or, in our case in Cumbria, politicians in Manchester and Liverpool—to divvy up the money fairly. The McKay commission pointed out that giving extra powers to local government in England and its northern cities, which I support as it may be part of a future solution, does not answer the fundamental question of the governance of England itself.

Some have suggested that the number of Scottish MPs should be reduced, as in the Stormont solution, on the basis that half the Scottish MPs’ workload is now the responsibility of MSPs. However even if there were only 40, 30, 20 or 10 Members in the United Kingdom Parliament from Scotland, they would still be voting on English matters. That fundamental injustice would need to be resolved.

Finally, having English votes for English laws is not too complicated to implement. The clerks in the Commons, as in this place, are experts at detecting hybrid Bills or amendments. They can easily identify a Bill which is UK-wide or for England only. It is not rocket science, as the McKay commission pointed out. There is overwhelming demand in England for such a change. I found that my English constituents in that magnificent border area were very tolerant and patient people, despite 600 years of border reiving—or probably because of it. They were very happy for Scotland to get additional powers but their view now is that 4 million electors in Scotland have had their say and it is time for the 40 million people in England to get fair treatment. I think that I am one of only 10 noble Lords participating today who has served as an English Member of Parliament. I say to your Lordships that we ignore the views building up in England at our peril. We should legislate for English laws and do it urgently, in tandem with any further legislation on devolution for Scotland.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, with respect to my noble friend who I know has studied it in great detail, I hesitate before going down the line of a 10-year fiscal federalism profile. I was about to answer the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, and the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, with regard to the Supreme Court. The Scottish National Party has made a specific proposal. It would be wrong to second guess the Smith commission, but on the noble and learned Lord’s point about the role of the Supreme Court, if you have got a single market you should have a common set of principles and legal interpretation. This is very important and, as he will be well aware, both my own department and the Scottish Government established working groups during the passage of the Scotland Act 2012 to look at the role of the Supreme Court with regard to devolution issues. These are now compatibility issues and I hope that the Smith commission will have regard to that work, as both working groups reached very similar conclusions. I hope that gives some reassurance to the noble Lord.

The commitment to deliver further powers for Scotland is of course in keeping with this Government’s record in decentralising power. As my noble friend the Leader of the House has indicated, this Government have made huge progress in devolving both responsibility and funding for schemes to a local level. Local enterprise partnerships and the ambitious city deals programme, which has been mentioned by a number of noble Lords who have contributed to the debate, are clear examples of our commitment to empowering local leaders to take decisions which best fit local circumstances and needs.

That is a demonstration of open-mindedness about how more powers might be devolved. We certainly do not believe that power should be hoarded at the centre but that it should be devolved to the nations, communities and individuals that will benefit from it. I was struck, in the course of our debate, by the very important contributions from those with a rich experience in local government: the noble Lords, Lord Smith of Leigh and Lord Beecham, and my noble friends Lord Shipley and Lord Tope. They shared very constructive ideas with your Lordships’ House as to how we might improve existing arrangements, what new ones might be made and how powers might be used more imaginatively in our communities, our cities and those parts of the country which are not immediately connected with a major city. That is clearly an agenda which must be pursued as we go forward examining a whole range of constitutional issues.

With regard to other devolution of power within England, my noble friend Lord Dobbs referred to Walter Scott and the path to the Highlands and the danger for an Englishman. Treading into devolution for England by a Scotsman is almost as dangerous. I always tread very carefully indeed. From what was said this evening, it is very clear that this is something which should be addressed. As I indicated earlier, this is not an alternative to the so-called EVEL; it is a both/and rather than an either/or.

As my noble friend Lord Greaves, the northern home-ruler, said, there is no consensus in England as to where we might go. There must be an opportunity for further debate. The noble Lord, Lord Prescott, made a very clear case for greater devolution within England. He said that the regions of England had to be consulted as to where they might go. There are proponents of regional government throughout England. There are difficult issues over the possibility of the creation of extra layers of government. There have been advocates of a separate English Parliament, although that raises questions over location and composition, and whether it would be any more decentralised than the present arrangements. While in Scotland there was a settled role of the Scottish Parliament, the picture in England is less clear. My noble friend Lord Tyler indicated that my own party advocates provisions of flexible and responsive devolution on demand. There is a wider debate to be had. My noble friend Lord Shipley set out a strong, healthy agenda for such a debate.

[Lord Blencathra]

The latest polls show that 78% of people in England favour English votes for English laws. That seems fairly like consensus to me.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I was coming on to the question of English votes for English laws. I do not believe that English votes for English laws is an answer to the whole question of devolution within England; I think that that point is accepted. As my noble friend Lord Tope said, it is not a question of if—it must be a question of how. Moving on to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, and numerous contributors to the debate with regard to English votes for English laws, I was going to say, “Over the last few weeks,” but my noble friend Lord Macgregor reminded us that the issue was live when he entered the House of Commons in 1974 and my noble friend Lord Lexden reminded us that it was live when Mr Gladstone and Joseph Chamberlain were in the House of Commons. This matter has generated debate and questions for well over a century. The welcome transfer of powers to Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the London Assembly, and the prospect of further devolution have created not just an anomaly but a complex one. The asymmetric devolution of powers to these bodies makes the issue of which MPs’ constituents are affected by which laws a highly varied one. It is not a simple question with an easy answer, but we nevertheless should seek an answer, as my noble friend Lord Macgregor said. It is a question of fairness.

Each of the three main UK parties in the United Kingdom Parliament has expressed its views on the West Lothian question. This House has considered the issue. We have had the views of the McKay commission and reports such that of the democracy taskforce. My right honourable friend David Laws has noted that a grand committee should be appointed proportionately to vet laws that will apply only in England, joined by Welsh MPs when matters affecting Wales are debated.

The noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, mentioned that Bills have a territorial extent. I know that my own Office of the Advocate General looks at all Bills with regard to whether legislative consent Motions will be required in Scotland. It can be complex. The Marine and Coastal Access Bill in which I took part is an example that was referred to by my noble friend Lord Greaves. Although my noble friend Lord Blencathra said that it could be relatively easy, I remember when the legislation was going through the House of Commons with regard to the increase of tuition fees under the Labour Government. When that passed, I was the Minister with responsibility for higher education in Scotland and I knew full well that that had far-reaching consequences for Scotland, which led to the Further and Higher Education (Scotland) Act 2005. It is not always easy. This matter deserves careful consideration.