Northern Ireland

Lord Bew Excerpts

Thursday 29th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, Northern Ireland has been subject to the same attempts at economic stimulus that the UK Government have made throughout the land. It is important to bear in mind that in addition to the strenuous efforts that we have made to deal with the particularly strong problems in Northern Ireland, we have, for example, ensured that the G8 summit, the Giro d’Italia and the World Police and Fire Games were held there. There has of course been a very generous financial package of nearly £2 billion as part of the recent Stormont House agreement. That should set Northern Ireland on the step towards recovery, but it remains important that a peaceful society develops there because the Troubles caused so much economic poverty.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, at the heart of the question of equal citizenship throughout the United Kingdom is the question of freedom of expression. The Minister will be aware that in this Parliament we have passed a reform of our libel law enhancing freedom of expression in the rest of the United Kingdom, but not in Northern Ireland. This is indeed a matter for the Northern Ireland Assembly, but will she take this opportunity to remind the House that the Government’s view is that it is desirable to have the maximum possible freedom of expression, as embodied in that recent reform?

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, the Government greatly regret the fact that that law has not been introduced in Northern Ireland, and urge those in the Assembly to work on this so that it can be.

Stormont House Agreement

Lord Bew Excerpts

Wednesday 7th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

While entirely supporting the final sentence of my noble friend’s comments, I ask him to bear in mind that it takes a very long period of time to turn around a society as divided as that of Northern Ireland.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, on the issue of the past, I welcome the Minister’s explanation that there will be careful monitoring of the results produced by this process. In the light of Mr Adams’ statement a mere three weeks or so ago that the IRA had no corporate memory and therefore could not, in the context of the Maíria Cahill case, contribute in any meaningful way to the work of historical recovery, it is slightly difficult to see how we can have, in the words of the Statement by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, a process which is “balanced, proportionate, transparent and accountable”.

One hundred and fifty million pounds is a lot of money. It is 20% of the amount allotted for the Northern Ireland Civil Service early retirement scheme. The taxpayer is entitled to reassurance that there will be careful monitoring of this process and that for this £150 million there will be something approaching a real, balanced process. This cost is proportionately far more than the historical aspects of the Bloody Sunday inquiry, which is reputed to be so highly expensive.

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord points out the complexities of dealing with the range of issues that this agreement covers. The number of bodies being set up is significant. They fulfil a whole range of functions. It is intended that one of them should be established as an international body. It is intended that some of them operate completely independently of political representatives. Others do not, but there is always that balance when there is elected political representation.

It is important to bear in mind that the agreement makes provision for an implementation and reconciliation group to oversee the bodies and the work being done on the past. It is important to bear in mind also that the British and Irish Governments and the Northern Ireland Executive are committed to regular, six-monthly monitoring meetings to ensure that things are proceeding in the fair, balanced and transparent manner that I mentioned.

Wales Bill

Lord Bew Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Norton of Louth]

My Lords, I, too, have sympathy with the amendment. I was recently in Cardiff Bay, speaking at a conference organised by the Welsh Government centre looking at the challenges facing the National Assembly. I focused on the challenges that derive from the fact that it is devolved, relatively new and small. Size does matter; it is especially important in a parliamentary system. As we have already heard, it affects the committees that are operating, not least because, with the small number of Members, there are problems setting up a comprehensive series of investigative committees where Members are not stretched by having to serve on several. That limits the capacity of the legislature to effectively scrutinise the Executive.

The other point about size is that the proportion of the Assembly that forms the Executive tends to be somewhat greater than with larger assemblies. The National Assembly is nowhere near the position in Gibraltar, where there are actually no Back-Benchers at all. However, the proportion of Ministers in the National Assembly is greater than it is in the House of Commons. In order for it to fulfil its functions effectively, you need members who can do that and to ensure that the Executive are not too prominent as a proportion of the Chamber itself. For these reasons, I have considerable sympathy with this amendment.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 12 in the name of my noble friend Lord Elystan-Morgan and the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. I am compelled to do so as a matter of natural justice because I come from a region of the United Kingdom where the local Assembly has 108 members on the basis of a significantly lower population than that of Wales. Even if it is the case, which is widely rumoured in Belfast, that the Assembly will be reduced in size to 90 before too long, there will still be a significant anomaly in relation to Wales.

I have never been an uncritical admirer of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I am currently the chairman of the Committee on Standards in Public Life. As has been referred to by the noble Lords, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and Lord Norton, that committee has made significant criticisms of some of the practices of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Those criticisms are nothing to do with its size. The better features of the Northern Ireland Assembly are its greater size and, I submit, a greater variety of opinion and debate. It also has a greater representation of parties and politicians who would not normally find their way to that Assembly in the face of the large battalions of local politics.

The argument has been eloquently made in favour of the need for the Welsh Assembly to have more members in order for it to deal with the volume of business in a more effective way. That is not the only argument, although I fully support it. There is also the argument that the larger Assembly will contain more variety of opinion—and therefore more vitality—and that can only be to the benefit of the people of Wales.

[Lord Hope of Craighead]

My Lords, I want to add a few words in support of the amendment. With great respect to the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, I do not think that he overstated the case in moving the amendment. I say that against the background of such experience as I have of the Scottish Parliament which is operating under the reserved powers model. If we cast our minds back to 1998, when these figures were being devised, the structures of these various legislatures played a part in deciding the numbers of members that were thought to be appropriate to staff them. One can well understand how the figure of 60 was arrived at for Wales. We have watched how the powers of the legislature have expanded and, no doubt, if it moves to the reserved powers model, we shall find that these will be built on even further, as they are being in Scotland.

There may even be a case for thinking that the membership of the Scottish Parliament is too small, given the immense pressures on the committee structure within which it operates. The more powers that are devolved, the more these committees are being stretched. One cannot simply live with the expanding system and increased powers of these legislatures without remembering that the figures were struck in a different world. It is quite absurd to be stuck with those figures which were devised originally under a different system.

There is an immense amount behind what the noble Lord has said and behind the other points that have been made. Like others, I hope that serious consideration will be given to a way in which that figure may now be increased to recognise the reality of what is going on and the requirements that it imposes on the individual members.

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[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, is it not a principal purpose of education to enable young people to think for themselves, to form views on informed and discerning bases and to take good decisions? In no sphere of life is this more important than democracy. Education should be a preparation for democracy. That is why I support these amendments, and very particularly Amendment 14.

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, I support Amendment 13 very much in the spirit of the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, who has already explained the successes in electoral registration which have characterised the situation in Northern Ireland. I add one word of caution: in the last general election, 14 of the 20 constituencies with the lowest turnout were in Northern Ireland. There is still plenty of work to be done. The Assembly, I am glad to say, now has a good outreach programme. Only yesterday my colleague at Queen’s University, Belfast, Professor Rick Wilford, spoke to representatives of 50 schools in Stormont itself. The Electoral Commission is attempting to engage radically with young people.

The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, will not be surprised to learn that there was a great spike in the interest of young people in response to the Electoral Commission’s efforts after the decision was announced that votes would be available to those aged 16 in Scotland—a very obvious and clear spike of interest.

Broadly speaking, the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, is correct. There have been successes in the registration programme in Northern Ireland which are quite remarkable. I can see no reason why similar methods cannot work in Wales. I simply add that in struggling against the alienation of young people, a number of approaches will be necessary.

[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, I am again pleased to take part in this debate and it seems that, once again, consensus reigns across your Lordships’ House. I support these provisions because the idea is to empower our citizens to register to vote. We know that turnout in Welsh elections has been lower than we would like it to be, especially among younger voters in Wales. Anything that can be done to increase participation, especially among our younger people, is to be welcomed. We know of the success in Northern Ireland, which is a great example of how it can be done. We have seen how the young people of Scotland were enthused by the referendum. Obviously, they all had to register to vote and they took part in that referendum because they were excited by it.

I am pleased to say that the Labour Party will have a manifesto commitment at the general election on voter registration and that we will be putting forward measures to encourage young people to vote. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, made out a very good case for taking active steps and engaging at the school and further education level. If action were taken as set out in the amendments, it would mean that young people, people with disabilities and ethnic minority groups—those who are consistently underrepresented in Wales’s democratic processes and, at present, the least likely to take an active part in democratic life—could be registered to vote and, by voter engagement sessions, be encouraged to use their vote. We need to get those at schools and further education colleges to understand how important it is for them to register and to vote.

The four Welsh party leaders have signed a letter to the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Wales, and the Wales Office Ministers showing their support for these moves. We know that in a letter today, which other noble Lords have mentioned, they again urge your Lordships’ House to support these amendments. I will not read out the whole letter but it says that, “We the undersigned”—that is, the four leaders—are supporters of these voter registration amendments and therefore,

“ask you to incorporate this important provision into the Wales Bill”,

to set in train,

“easier, engaging and accessible voter registration for the people of Wales”.

If the Minister will take all these views into account, as I know she will, we could move forward on this and encourage our younger people and the underrepresented groups to register and vote.

Northern Ireland: National Crime Agency

Lord Bew Excerpts

Tuesday 4th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord makes some excellent points. It is important to emphasise the huge pressure being put on PSNI while this issue remains unresolved. It is also important to point out that the NCA deals with serious and organised crime which does not respect boundaries. It has been very much more difficult to deal with serious crime—child exploitation, drug related crime, fraud, and so on—since the NCA has not been able to operate.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

As all the parties in Northern Ireland have a very strong and noble position against human trafficking, does the Minister accept that the National Crime Agency has a key role to play in that respect? In their discussions with local parties, do the Government emphasise the important role that the NCA could play regarding human trafficking, which is increasingly troubling to those who pay attention to the affairs of Northern Ireland?

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord makes a very important point. If the parties of Northern Ireland feel vulnerable on this issue, it will hit home hardest on the question of child exploitation and human trafficking.

Northern Ireland: Haass Talks

Lord Bew Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for securing this important debate. He has always been a great friend to Northern Ireland. I regret that what I have to say will be relatively cautious in the context of so many earlier eloquent speeches. I hope it will not appear negative but I think it is important to register certain points.

One concern is the cost of the Haass proposals. I fully support the Treasury’s decision to make the loan of £110 million and to ease the immediate crisis in the Executive. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has said, in the context of strict repayment conditions it is very difficult for Northern Ireland to take on board new commitment to public expenditure. If it is true that the Haass proposals amounted to hundreds of millions, that has to be something that we consider carefully. I ask the Minister to give us some help on exactly how costly they might have been. Also, Dr Haass’s proposal outwith the talks when he accepted the Tipperary peace prize for making the Irish language a second official language cannot be, whatever its other merits or demerits, a cost-free proposal.

The other crucial point I want to make is that I have come—I regret to say this because I feel the needs of the victims so strongly and it is such a disappointing thing to say, particularly for those young scholars who want to participate in this process—increasingly to the view that the idea of a shared process of recovery from the past is not a very likely project. It was one I used to strongly and until recently believe in. I have not given up on it completely but I am increasingly sceptical. The unionist community basically believes that the state is responsible for only 10% of deaths, loyalist paramilitaries for 30% and republicans for 60%. They therefore believe that any narrative must reflect the fact that the lion’s share of the killing was carried out by republicans. It is quite straightforward: that is their view of the matter and that is what they want to hear. The republican community, on the other hand, with the support of a large cast of journalists, clerics and NGOs, focuses on broader explanatory factors which emphasise long-term structural factors, discrimination, sectarianism, institutional culpability and collusion. This can sometimes be linked to a broader discourse of human rights, transitional justice and reconciliation. These are two world views you can accept or quote. They are fundamentally opposed. It is hard to see how you can have a shared process when you acknowledge this fact.

Finally, there is the question raised very sharply—it has already been alluded to—by Mr Adams at the weekend when, under pressure, he made an important comment about the Maria Cahill case, which has attracted a lot of attention. It was an alleged rape by a suspected IRA member in 1997. Mr Adams has been under a great degree of media pressure in both the north and the south about this. He said:

“The IRA has long since left the scene so there is no corporate way of verifying”,

what happened in this case. What does this mean for any wider shared process of recovery from the past? The state definitely has a corporate memory but he is now saying the IRA has no corporate memory. It has disappeared. What can this possibly mean for a shared process? These are the reasons for my scepticism. I regret to say these things. I think there are things that the state can do unilaterally and a great deal of consideration should be given to those things, but the shared process seems at this moment, I deeply regret to say, very elusive.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Lord Bew Excerpts

Tuesday 4th March 2014 Lords Chamber

Although we cannot amend much of the law relating to the NICS itself in this Bill, as it is a devolved matter, that does not mean that Parliament cannot take account of the overall position of the Civil Service in Northern Ireland before making a decision relating to the Civil Service Commissioners. This amendment will ensure consideration of safeguards in respect of the Civil Service in the devolved sphere before devolution takes place. I hope that noble Lords will agree that this amendment provides an appropriate mechanism for scrutiny of any future proposals to devolve responsibility for the Civil Service Commissioners and that they will feel able to support it.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the discussions on this matter. The language that she is now putting before the House is better than the language we had before. However, I remain uneasy about the necessity for this provision at all. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, referred to a spirit which runs throughout the Bill, of a certain disconnectedness from the affairs of Northern Ireland. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, has also raised issues about elements within the Bill for which there is no obvious hunger in Northern Ireland. This is one of them. I am unaware of any particular local pressure, inside or outside the Assembly, on this point.

None the less, if there is to be devolution in this area, it is important to send a signal. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for meeting me and for having discussions with other noble Lords who are concerned about this matter. I am also very grateful to her officials for the work that they put in on this. At least now we are sending a signal that this Parliament believes, in principle, in the importance of the independence of the Civil Service Commissioners and that appointment to the Northern Ireland Civil Service should be on an impartial basis and on the grounds of merit. It is important that a clear signal should continue to be sent out by Parliament on this point. It is certainly clearer in the language that the Government are currently offering than it was when the Bill first came before this Chamber. I thank the noble Baroness for her help in this matter.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend. In Committee and on Report I put my name to an amendment which was originally piloted by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, because of our concern about the impact at home in Northern Ireland. A number of things that my noble friend has said, and which are in the amendment, are extremely helpful. First, there is the fact that the Secretary of State would be required to produce a report. The contents required to be in the report are also spelt out, as is the fact that it would have to be done three months beforehand. Furthermore, my noble friend has given undertakings that if we find ourselves in that situation, the Government will facilitate the opportunity for debates on the report in this House and in another place, and will take account of the content of those debates. That is a very helpful undertaking.

I think that my noble friend has also indicated something which goes a little further and which I really welcome—that any expectation that the Northern Ireland Executive might have that such legislation will be passed here will to some extent depend on whether there has been demonstrable progress on the Northern Ireland Civil Service rules and bringing them up to date with the arrangements on this side of the water. I am rather encouraged by that because one of the concerns that I expressed at a previous stage was that the Civil Service in Northern Ireland—for which I have enormous respect—has not necessarily kept up with some of the progress on this side of the water as quickly as it might have done. My noble friend has indicated—not just in the amendment but in her undertakings and her description of the amendment—that this could be a very helpful lever if we come to a time when the Northern Ireland Executive were eager to make progress in the direction of the amendment and this clause in the Bill.

Not only have the Minister and her officials listened, taken account of what was said and obviously consulted the Secretary of State but there has been a very positive response. I welcome that and I certainly support her amendment.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Lord Bew Excerpts

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, this is a very simple amendment. In Committee we discussed at considerable length the fact that we were seeking to ensure that the principles of merit and of equality of opportunity were always at the forefront of Civil Service recruitment. I take the point that in this case we have the anomaly that civil servants effectively are answerable to the devolved Parliament, whereas the Civil Service Commission is not. I believe, too, that if we cannot agree on the principles of merit and equality in terms of the Civil Service Commission, we are in severe difficulties.

I refer to the letter that the noble Baroness sent to us and to the fact that in Committee many people praised the Civil Service for its work in very difficult times over a prolonged period. Many civil servants conducted almost political negotiations on behalf of Ministers, in some cases at great risk to their personal safety. We owe them a debt of gratitude in that regard. The point was made that the situation in the 2010 Act gave the Whitehall Civil Service Commission one status, whereas the Civil Service Commission in Northern Ireland has a different one. The amendment was drafted to deal with that anomaly. I am interested to know how the Minister has reflected on these matters since Committee and whether she feels able either to support the amendment or to bring forward her own. I beg to move.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, I support the amendment. The shadow of history lies over it. When the Northern Ireland Civil Service was established in 1921-22, something like 60 appointments were made without any normal procedures of recruitment being applied. Over a period of time a struggle to achieve a professional Civil Service began. The time between 1925 and 1944 when Sir Wilfrid Spender was head of the Civil Service was key. In the memoirs of a Catholic civil servant, Patrick Shea, who reached the top of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, one can see the degree to which great efforts were made to institutionalise procedures that reflected what Sir Wilfrid thought were the best procedures in Whitehall.

That backdrop explains why, when direct rule came, Ministers of all parties—I do not just mean Conservative, Labour or Liberal Democrat Ministers who had dealings with the Northern Ireland Civil Service, but Ministers who leant to one particular side or the other in Northern Ireland—always found that the Northern Ireland Civil Service delivered excellent and objective advice. If one looks at the non-controversial nature of north-south relations, which is of particular importance at the moment, it is clear that the big political decisions in such a context were made by the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, who is in his place today.

It is also the case that the work done by the Northern Ireland Civil Service in looking at areas of viable co-operation between north and south is a very important reason why the settlement is so stable. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, has said, we owe a debt of gratitude to the Northern Ireland Civil Service. As I have argued, that integrity and professionalism has been hard won. The pressures of localism do not go away: it is not 1921 anymore. At this symbolic moment, it seems to me that noble Lords who supported this amendment want to say that a stronger message is desirable in terms of defining the principle of merit and of fair and open competition. That essentially is the idea behind this amendment: that that signal should be sent in a firm way.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, whatever reservations I might have had with regard to the previous amendment I have none at all about putting my name to this one as it is very important. There was some talk in the debate on the previous amendment about the imposition of the will of the Westminster Parliament or Westminster Government on Northern Ireland. In a sense, this amendment and the next one refer to two clauses where it is almost as though the Westminster Parliament and Government are intentionally withdrawing their involvement and moving from excepted to reserved matters that were rather carefully put in the excepted category. Why? Many of us were conscious of the fact that over a substantial time in the historical period referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Bew, the United Kingdom Parliament and Government were less involved in that part of the United Kingdom than might have been advisable, and things went awry.

It does not seem to me that we have learnt from that. Indeed, some indications over the past two or three years are that people on this side of the water, relieved to some extent that Northern Ireland is less in the headlines than it was for 20 or 30 years, are just hoping that everything will go on all right. The noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, has rung a warning bell that maybe things need attention, and I think he is right on that score. I have heard no demand in Northern Ireland for the issues referred to in this amendment or the next to be changed, so I am a little puzzled why these propositions have come forward in the first place. If they do proceed, they must be addressed properly.

I have two concerns. First, while I accord entirely with the positive remarks of the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Bew, about the Northern Ireland Civil Service, and from my positive experience in most circumstances over some years, nevertheless, particularly as I was trying to get the Assembly up and running, it became apparent that many of the more senior civil servants were operating off a kind of Civil Service rulebook from 20 or 30 years before. They really had not kept up with the kind of developments of Civil Service culture on this side of the water. There was nothing malign about it but it seemed that things took rather a long time to get across the Irish Sea in terms of cultural change. So, one of my concerns is that if we simply offload and do not put appropriate rules in place, those cultural changes that take place on this side of the water may not be picked up as quickly back at home, and I do not want to see that.

Secondly, when appointing senior civil servants it is suggested that the Civil Service as a whole, and the basis on which it recruits, is entirely a devolved matter. That is clearly legally true. However, I ask my noble friend to consider—she may not be able to respond immediately—whether, if it became apparent that the merit principle did not apply and proper recruitment was not happening in Northern Ireland, would that not be a matter of concern to this Parliament? If it became apparent that there was discrimination, inappropriate appointments were being made or that the merit principle was not the key principle, is it seriously being suggested that this Parliament would have no locus, interest or legitimate concern, and that the Secretary of State who was responsible for negotiating the resources that those civil servants would spend, and who might have a legitimate concern for the propriety of appointments, could say nothing about it? I am not entirely persuaded that that argument stands up. I do not necessarily say that we would ever get to that position but if we talk ourselves into the notion that this Parliament and the Government have no say in the overwhelming majority affairs in Northern Ireland, that is a recipe for neglect, benign or otherwise. I do not want to contribute to that.

I support the amendment not only because, technically, I think it is important, and historically it is appropriate, but because it gives us the opportunity again—as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said, they do not come by too often—to raise the issue of Northern Ireland and the responsibility of this place and the Government here on what is a devolved institution, not an independent one.

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[Lord Hope of Craighead]

The noble Lord is quite right that the powers of the Executive are controlled by convention rights. The legislative competence of the Parliament is controlled in the same way and it is open to a court to pronounce an affirmative order requiring a member of the Executive to do something. There are mechanisms, and these would be put into place through the existing devolved system. This is something that could be arranged, but that is quite different from what is being suggested here, which is, without that background and without that attempt being made, to simply legislate from this House. I underline the caution which is being properly urged on the House by the noble and learned Lord.

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, I rise to support a central point made by the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Black, concerning the way in which the current arrangements contain the possibility of great unfairness and difficulty for the Northern Ireland judiciary. I am a supporter of the Defamation Act 2013 and, as noble Lords have said, I served on the Select Committee of both Houses. Put aside for a minute the wisdom or otherwise of that Act—and I do believe it is a wise Act—the problem for the Northern Ireland judiciary is that it is now stuck with the interpretation of an antiquated law, while the rest of the United Kingdom, in particular the media, will be operating fundamentally according to a rhythm set by the Defamation Act 2013.

I want to make a further point concerning the issue of forum shopping, or, as it applies in the Defamation Act, libel tourism. The Northern Ireland judiciary in recent cases—I am thinking particularly of the ruling by Mr Justice Deeny in the Sean Quinn case on 10 January 2012—has clearly set itself against what we might call forum shopping. Mr Justice Deeny argued that that key, very important bankruptcy case was not suitable for Belfast on the grounds that Mr Sean Quinn had had his being and his residence in the Republic of Ireland for the previous 32 years. That is a clear indication of the broad thinking of the Northern Ireland judiciary on this question of forum shopping. In the case of the libel law, it is the issue we used to know as libel tourism, which the Act is designed to deal with. So we know to some degree where the thinking of the Northern Ireland judiciary is on this question.

There is a sense within European law in general that forum shopping is not something to be encouraged, and yet Northern Ireland is stuck with legislation—our old libel law—which actually encourages forum shopping. I am just trying to bring home to the House that the point made by the noble Lords, Lord Lester and Lord Black, is actually a profound one. The judiciary of Northern Ireland is being placed in an extremely difficult position by the current arrangements. I understand the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Browne. I have already been approached by the Law Commission and I assure him that I will give as full evidence as I possibly can to it.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

My Lords, I hesitate to intervene in something on which such distinguished legal brains have been brought to bear but, briefly, as a layman in these matters, I am very impressed by the arguments made by the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, and the power of the argument about the desirability of uniformity in the application of defamation laws. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, said that the advantage of devolution is that we can all make different laws. However, as a good unionist he will know that it is very desirable that as a union we stick together as closely as we can and do not make a principle of establishing every different law that we can between the different parts of the United Kingdom.

As a loyal member of the United Kingdom, I think it is desirable that the Executive of Northern Ireland should look at these matters as it seems that they are likely on some occasions to significantly disadvantage some of their own supporters, who might find themselves caught up in some very unfortunate implications. Although there is the devolved power, that power should be exercised also with respect to the position of other parts of the United Kingdom, which may find from the illustrations given by the noble Lords, Lord Black and Lord Bew, that these are difficult matters.

I hesitate to deviate from the noble Lord, Lord Lester, as he and I have a bit of history as well in some areas, as anybody will know who remembers the broadcasting ban or the amazing events when the chief constable decided to deprive female constables of the right to carry arms. The noble Lord, Lord Lester, was active during my time in that area.

At the end of the day, I am not quite clear from the exchanges that have taken place whether this is just genuine inertia or whether there is a fundamental objection within the Executive to doing this, thinking it totally undesirable in Northern Ireland, and exactly what the background to this is. However, I am prepared to accept that it is the determination of the Executive to address this, although they are moving very slowly. That is the most preferable way to go in terms of what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Carswell, said, and not to get caught by being unnecessarily accused of trying to undermine the devolution proposal. The message should go out very clearly from this House that we think this is highly desirable and almost essential to do. We look to the Executive to do it as speedily as they can and bring this matter into line, without imposing it in the amendment as proposed.

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[Lord Browne of Belmont]

I am not in a position to speak for the Executive or for my party in the Assembly. However, I am sure that they would wish to progress in a way that they believe will serve the people of Northern Ireland best.

I oppose the amendment and I hope that we will be able to proceed with the elections in Northern Ireland. Unlike the Ulster Unionists, I am not pessimistic about the outcome; I am very optimistic.

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, I support the amendment. It is not the least of the distinctions of the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, that he is a former First Minister of Northern Ireland. He is not the only former First Minister of Northern Ireland in this House, but he is the only one who can say that he was supported by a majority of both communities in the process of election. We have lost something in the structures of the Assembly and the way it operates simply by the absence of that process and that type of affirmation for the First Ministership.

However, I do not want to dwell on the past. A number of points have been raised today about the future and possible destabilising trends—some of which might or might not eventuate—and it is important that we do not sleepwalk into this possible crisis with the Executive and the institutions. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, asked a profound question, and one way of considering the implications of the question is that some of the parties, at least, to the current arrangements may no longer have precisely the same investment in those arrangements that they once had. If possible, there should be a dialogue or discussion in the Assembly with a view always to maintaining the stability of Northern Ireland, because there is a possibility, for the reasons mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Kilclooney and Lord Trimble, that we are sleepwalking into a crisis with these institutions. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, is right: these institutions have delivered a form of stability for some years now, but that does not mean that they will continue to do so. I would like reassurance that the Government are keeping the matter under review and are not sleepwalking.

[Lord Maginnis of Drumglass (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, first, I apologise for intervening at this late stage and for not having been here, as one might have expected, at the beginning of the debate. I was detailed to find out some information about a serious event that took place in 2006. I have only just received the information that the person who was suspected of the Regent’s Park bombing many years ago was arrested by the Metropolitan Police some time past and was able to pull out of his pocket a letter dated 2006 which said that he would no longer be deemed a terrorist. Over the past few months, a court case, held virtually in secret, has revealed that 187 terrorists were given that letter in 2006, saying that, although they were terrorists, they would no longer be deemed to be so. How can we vote with any assuredness on this Bill when we discover belatedly that, subsequent to the St Andrews agreement, this sort of behind-backs, underhand deal was carried out by the Government at that time?

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Lord Bew Excerpts

Monday 3rd February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, I support the words of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. This is a more significant change than the House has fully grasped. We have recently lost a distinguished Member of the House of Commons, Mr Paul Goggins, who was widely respected on all sides. When he was Minister of State for Northern Ireland he used to say at the Dispatch Box that, “Electoral law will remain in this House for all time”. Today we are, in a sense, changing that. The reasons why he thought that are very close to the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. I fully accept the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that there is a general public perception in Northern Ireland and throughout the United Kingdom that there is great expense associated with the running of the Stormont Parliament. However, it is a lot easier to make a case for a reduction in the number of relatives assisting and the number of special advisers, as well as in this area, to deal with the question of public expenditure.

There is a fundamental point here. The very large number of representatives—108 for a small population—permits a greater role for smaller parties than otherwise would have happened, and these smaller parties have something relatively fresh to say in the context of Northern Ireland. Do not forget that we have a Parliament at the moment where 105 out of 108 Members support the Government. All of them would support the Government if it were not for the fact that we have this very broad system of allowing 108 people to be elected.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to restate the important role that Westminster and the Government play within Northern Ireland in building a shared future. The Secretary of State and the Northern Ireland Office must be actively involved and engaged in assisting the people of Northern Ireland to deal with past violence and the legacy of the Troubles. The Government have a duty to lead, but not prescribe, working with the Assembly, the Executive and the Irish Government. The Government must also take responsibility for and consider the effects of their economic and welfare policies in Northern Ireland. However, having listened to what has been said, and having indicated that it was a probing amendment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, this clause deals with the potential for devolution of certain aspects of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. Human rights is a particularly important and sensitive issue in all jurisdictions, not just those in which there are conflicts. It takes on particular characteristics where there is communal and intercommunal conflict. I well remember discussions at a very early stage among the political parties and the two Governments, well before those with which George Mitchell and colleagues were involved—right back to the days of Sir Ninian Stephen, whom some of your Lordships will probably have forgotten. It was very interesting because at that stage four political parties and the British and Irish Governments were involved. It was fascinating that the four political parties could all agree that we needed robust human rights protections. It is generally not that difficult to get people, particularly opposition parties to agree. In those days, all the parties in Northern Ireland were opposition parties. If you say, “Do you want the rights of your people to be protected?”, they say, “Yes, of course”. If you say, “Do you want the rights of everybody else to be protected?”, it is difficult to say, “No, I just want our rights protected”.

The four parties involved at that stage all agreed and those who found it most difficult were the British and Irish Governments. They could see the implications of embodying this in statute and setting up human rights commissions, and so on. What is important about that is that when people are in government they have a very different perspective on human rights from when they are in opposition. This is why I have a real anxiety and wonder how much thinking there has been about the question proposed in Clause 11. I would be interested to know from the Minister who exactly has asked for this; certainly the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission has not asked for it. If the Northern Ireland Government have asked for it, I am particularly suspicious—not because of the occupants of those offices but because, in principle, the point of human rights commissions is to speak truth to power and to challenge.

That is why in Scotland, it is not the Scottish Government but the Scottish Parliament that addresses these issues. I want to explore whether we are talking about devolution to the Executive—to government—of more control of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, about which I would have considerable anxiety, or whether we are talking about the possibility that it might be devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly, where a whole range of the community is represented by elected representatives. There is a sort of reason for this. One of roles and responsibilities of the Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly is that every piece of legislation, before it comes to First Reading, must have the Speaker’s approval that it conforms to the European Convention on Human Rights. Before the legislation leaves the Assembly, in case any amendments have been passed that change that, it must have approval again. At various stages, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission can intervene in the legislative process precisely to make sure that the governing parties cannot of themselves put into legislation things that do not conform to proper international human rights requirements.

I would be interested to find out where the drive has come from for this particular change. Is it a question of giving more power to the Northern Ireland Executive to control those who are supposed to hold them to account, or is it possible that we might look at devolution to the Northern Ireland Assembly? That would at least ensure that it was not those in government appointing those who scrutinise government, but rather that it was the Assembly as a whole. At least that would be some form of protection.

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, I support the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. Clause 11 embodies a significant step towards the devolution of function in relation to the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission.

I do not want to leap ahead to the amendment in my name and the names of the noble Lords, Lord Lexden and Lord Black. That will be discussed in its own time. There is, however, a particular irony here. The key issue in that amendment is the continuing reluctance of the Northern Ireland Assembly to accord to the citizens of Northern Ireland the same level of freedom of expression that exists in the rest of the United Kingdom since the recent passing of the Defamation Act 2013. It seems a heavy irony that we should be proposing to devolve functions related to human rights precisely at the same time as we have a denial by the same Assembly of what is a pretty sensitive question in this particular respect. I do not want to anticipate a later discussion but it is relevant to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. The timing of this seems at least a little odd.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I have some sympathy with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. This kept coming up time and again in the Haass process—and I am sorry that I did not have the opportunity to sell tickets for it at an earlier stage; I know it would have been a sell-out for many noble Lords. It goes to the core of what people feel about their cultural identity and how they express that identity. Everybody talks about human rights in that context. What might seem a relatively modest administrative change does have significant consequences, and it could not have been put better than by the noble Lord, Lord Bew.

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Action by the Northern Ireland Executive could resolve the issue at once. As my noble friend Lord Empey has already said, it is contrary to the standing constitutional conventions that this Parliament should legislate in an area within the competence of a devolved legislature. However, here, as in national security, we are faced with a great national issue in which an overriding United Kingdom interest is at stake. I ask the Government to give this amendment the most careful consideration. I beg to move.

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, I support the amendment, which is in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord Lexden and Lord Black. I support it very much for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, has given. I declare an interest as I served on the Select Committee of both Houses that worked on the defamation question in the year leading up to the Defamation Act which has recently passed. The committee was chaired by another Ulsterman, the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney. Both of us feel a certain pain that the one part of the United Kingdom in which the Act is not effectively operating is the part from which we come. I feel a particular pain on the grounds that the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, has already referred to—that a key part of the Defamation Act was to enhance academic freedom. It consequently means that my fellow academics at Queen’s University in Belfast are now second-class citizens with respect to academic freedom as it is now being defined and protected in the rest of the United Kingdom.

There is an important point here with respect to the recent Haass talks. One of the key reasons why those talks failed in Belfast was around the issue of dealing with the past. Do we honestly believe that the antediluvian libel laws, which restricted freedom of certain key questions with respect to the past in Northern Ireland, should be maintained to improve understanding of the past? The idea is too ridiculous to consider for a minute.

Although I was deeply committed to the Defamation Act when it went through the House, I fully accept and understand that there are serious reasons why serious people had objections. I can respect that, but we are in a changed situation. As far as the bulk of the United Kingdom is concerned, this is now the law of the land. It places people in Northern Ireland in a different situation; it is not simply a matter of the merits or demerits of the old law. It is the new concrete situation that has been created by the change in the rest of the United Kingdom that I want to consider. On my way here I read the Belfast Telegraph in which a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly referred to the debate that he knew would take place here this afternoon. That Member made a fair and certainly accurate point which I accepted, that this is a devolved matter for the Assembly. However, there are some things that are devolved matters for the Assembly which are, as it were, matters which stay in Northern Ireland, if I can put it like that.

Whether one approves or disapproves, the Northern Ireland Assembly’s view on gay marriage is an issue that is internal to Northern Ireland. Another issue that does not quite stay in Northern Ireland is the position of the Northern Ireland Assembly on abortion, which effectively means exporting many of Northern Ireland’s problems to the United Kingdom. None the less it can be argued that there are issues where the Assembly reserves its competence on devolved matters which affect only the people of Northern Ireland. In this case there is an “incoming” element—the United Kingdom media, which have to operate within Northern Ireland, and the greater risk to which they are now exposed. It has to be remembered that the people of Northern Ireland have many virtues, but not being naturally litigious is not one of them. I have put that as a double negative as I think that it is the most polite and accurate way of stating it.

There have been many major libel cases in Belfast over the years of the Troubles in which very heavy costs were paid out by our national media. Put ourselves in the position now of a Northern Ireland judge. In the past a Northern Ireland judge at least had the comfort that his job was to interpret the libel law as it existed throughout the rest of the United Kingdom. If a case comes up tomorrow, the Northern Ireland judge is now dealing with a much more difficult and complicated question. He will be dealing with media produced in the rest of the United Kingdom where certain assumptions now exist about what can and cannot be said and operating and trying to deal with a legal problem in a part of the United Kingdom where those assumptions do not exist. The Government have to think seriously about the almost intolerable position that the Northern Ireland judiciary will be placed in if it is left with this status quo. I do not know quite how one makes these judgments.

We have talked much about the European Convention on Human Rights and how it is part of the Good Friday agreement. It is also a part of the continuing responsibility of the Secretary of State in the Northern Ireland Office. The European Convention on Human Rights is significant in the important respect of the defence of freedom of expression. I remind the Government that under the conventions they are committed to, and under the terms of the Good Friday agreement, these issues of freedom of expression are potentially part of their remit.

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con)]

My Lords, in supporting this amendment I declare my interest as executive director of the Telegraph Media Group, and I draw attention to my other media interests in the register. I believe that all those who have an interest in safeguarding jobs in Northern Ireland, who have an interest in the health of its creative economy—which is so often the motor of economic progress—and who have an interest in the quality of its governance, have great cause to be thankful to my noble friend Lord Lexden for tabling this probing amendment so that this issue can be properly addressed.

As my noble friend said, we last looked at it in a debate in June when I set out from the perspective of somebody involved in the media the profoundly damaging consequences of the Northern Ireland Executive’s inexplicable decision not to implement the Defamation Act in Northern Ireland. I do not need to go over that ground again, not least because my noble friend has summarised it so eloquently. I support absolutely his analysis of the six things that will flow from this decision. There is certainly no doubt in my mind that this quixotic decision will cost jobs. It will put off the vital investment that is needed to create a sustainable economy based on modern industries, and it will expose ordinary people in Northern Ireland—anyone who uses social media, which I suspect is the vast majority of the population there—to the intense dangers of costly legal actions that can destroy lives.

Three things have happened since we had that debate in June that make the case for action ever more powerful and urgent. First, as my noble friend said, has been the strong response to the consultation on Mr Mike Nesbitt’s Private Member’s Bill. It is a very thorough and very well publicised exercise that has produced an overwhelming response in favour of the Bill. I praise Mr Nesbitt for the way in which he handled the consultation so magnificently. People in Northern Ireland have clearly understood the dangers of the status quo and the need to bring Northern Ireland’s libel laws into line with England and Wales. The case was powerfully made out in the Belfast Telegraph today, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Bew. So, the media are in favour of change. We now know that ordinary people are in favour of change. Civic society in Northern Ireland wants action, and international press freedom organisations have been queuing up to support change. The only stumbling block appears to be the Northern Ireland Executive, who, as my noble friend said, have never produced one compelling argument in favour of their position. That is the first thing. We now have a very clear view of public support.

Secondly, since the debate, there has been the sealing of the royal charter on press regulation. Since that took place in October, I understand that the Northern Ireland Executive have decided to opt out of the provisions, or rather not to opt in to them. I say that I understand because it is not easy to discern how, when or why the decision was taken. As noble Lords will be aware, I am no fan of the royal charter—completely the opposite because I believe that it has potentially long-term damaging consequences for press freedom. But I have to set my personal views on that to one side. The point is that the charter is now part of a hugely complex legal web, including provision of exemplary damages in libel and privacy cases that is now ensnaring the rest of the UK media. If Northern Ireland is outside of that and outside of the Defamation Act, that will produce massive legal uncertainty of the sort talked about by the noble Lord, Lord Bew. There will be uncertainty for the media, for litigants taking actions against newspapers, magazines or any other media, and for the wider creative economy. Uncertainty is the enemy of the law and it is also costly. It will cost jobs, as we have heard, and it will cost extra money for those seeking legal redress. So the decision on the charter compounds the problem over defamation in a way which will be deeply destabilising.

Northern Ireland: Royal Residence

Lord Bew Excerpts

Wednesday 11th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, along with many of your Lordships, I am concentrating on supporting the Better Together campaign. I am not making plans, and neither are my noble friends, for any future situation in Balmoral.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that the fact that she is able to make this announcement today reverses the great historic error of the 19th century in not having a royal residence in Ireland, and that it can only be done because of the stability brought to Northern Ireland’s constitutional status as a result of the Good Friday agreement of 1998?

[Baroness Randerson]

Hillsborough has been in its current situation since about 1922, I believe, but the noble Lord makes a very good point. It is the stability of the political situation that has made it possible for the Northern Ireland Office to consider new arrangements for the management of Hillsborough Castle, and to ensure at the same time that security levels are maintained. That will be possible under the new arrangements because of the security and political situation.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Lord Bew Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure immediately to follow the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Lexden. His speeches in this House reflect not only his love for the Province but his grasp of the political detail, the complexity and the history of the Province. He, at least, will not shirk the tremendous difficulty that Keats noted in improving the condition of these people.

Batting at number 10, I will make some brief remarks about the Bill, and I start by thanking the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, and her officials for the helpful briefing last Thursday on the different elements of the Bill. I should also indicate that I welcome the broad thrust of the Bill.

I accept the point of the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, that the culture in the political parties of Northern Ireland is changing, and that double-jobbing is gradually curing itself and moving out of the system. I still welcome the provisions in the Bill to give a certain finality to that. It is worth recalling that there was a substantial struggle on this point. As the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said, the Committee on Standards in Public Life and its previous chairman, Sir Christopher Kelly, played a major role, as the Library’s briefing note makes clear, in entrenching judgments and moving opinion towards the conclusion which we now have in the Bill. I pay tribute to that work this evening; we should not forget it. The Committee on Standards in Public Life—I declare an interest in that I am its newly appointed chairman—also pushed very strongly on another key element in the Bill, which is greater transparency in the area of political donations.

Because we have been absorbing some difficult news from the OECD today, it might be worth while drawing attention to the fact that in mid-November the OECD held a conference in Paris under the heading of “Restoring Trust in Government”. One of the features of that conference was an acknowledgement that the United Kingdom had a good record in the matter of transparency as regards political donations. One blot on the United Kingdom’s record is the problem with respect to Northern Ireland that has already been alluded to by the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Browne. However, the United Kingdom generally has a good record of transparency, and there is no question but that the Bill, in some of its provisions, reduces some of the criticisms that can be made as regards part of the Northern Irish tale which reduces the overall record.

None the less, it is a fundamental fact that a key principle of our law in the United Kingdom is the notion that it is inappropriate to have foreign donations working in our domestic politics. That is increasingly widely accepted and is a key principle of our law. The difficulty, which has been the case for some years and remains so under the Bill, is the continuation of the arrangements that allow Irish citizens to contribute to Northern Irish political parties. I fully accept that there is a special relationship between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and that the need to make provisions for Irish citizens who live on the island of Ireland to play that role is implicit in the Belfast agreement itself. That agreement conferred new rights on those who consider themselves British, those who consider themselves Irish and those who consider themselves both; it did not confer new rights on those who consider themselves Irish or American or both. However, we are effectively doing that by continuing with those arrangements.

When the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, was the Minister responsible for these matters, he was very open in Grand Committee in acknowledging that there are a lot of Irish citizens around the world. The point is that the Irish state has an expanded extraterritorial definition of citizenship. We are locked in by those arrangements to the Irish state’s constitutional view of those matters. As a consequence, there is indisputably a contradiction between our broad approach to the question of foreign donations and what we are permitted in this particular case. There is a difficulty here.

One of the things that slightly surprise me is that, after all, in recent times we have heard a great deal about the very good relationship between the two Governments and how it has never been better. We—or those who pay attention to Dublin politics—also hear an unease about the money that arrives in Dublin politics; I am talking now purely about politics between the Irish Republic and America. There is growing unease on those points. One of the questions that I want to ask the Government is: are serious discussions going on about the implications of those matters? Is there a sense that both Governments have an interest in at least looking more closely at current arrangements? There are some very striking recent newspaper reports about fundraising developments in the United States and very striking unease in the Dublin newspapers about it. As I say, we are stuck with the capacious definition of Irish citizenship currently available in the Irish constitution. Finally, in the same context, perhaps I may ask the noble Baroness if she can explain whether the new guidelines from the Standards in Public Office Commission in Dublin which came out in 2013 offer any real comfort to those of us who are concerned about that matter.