Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Monday 2nd June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I do not intend to repeat what I said last time, the Minister will be pleased to hear, but there are one or two things that have arisen today which I wish to address. We were told by the Minister that the Government’s view is that we might be in danger of privileging one section of the creative industries as against another, or one section of the community that is likely to be affected by AI. However, copyright underlines everything. It is universal. If you are talking about film, television, a work of literature or anything else, copyright is the essential ingredient.

On the issue of going in small parts, with one thing leading to another, I want to mention something that happened a few years ago and that we are still trying to deal with. Before Brexit, I and others made the point to the Government that it was going to cause a serious problem for touring musicians and artists. Boris Johnson’s Government said, “We can see that; we’re not going to let it happen”. Well, we have been trying to sort it out ever since. My point is simply this: getting small issues right is incredibly important because, further down the line, they become massive. That is why I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, is right to keep pushing. Like many other noble Lords here, I am very concerned about ping-pong—especially when we seem to be frustrating the mandated Chamber—but, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, once said to me, there are sometimes issues where you just have to stand firm for as long as possible. I believe that this is one of them.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, this is my first time speaking on this Bill, so the Government Chief Whip will be pleased to know that I am not able to repeat comments I have previously made. I have followed the debates on it closely and followed, with great admiration, the campaign led by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, not just in this Chamber but far beyond it.

This has never been a question of party politics. Indeed, it is striking that the initiative here has been led from the Cross Benches and the Back Benches in both Houses, as the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool, just pointed out. The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has led the charge. She has put her case clearly and been extremely reasonable and patient in the face of answers even more frustrating than those I used to give her when I was at the government Dispatch Box. More than that, she has been proactive in seeking solutions. The morning after her victory in the last round of ping-pong, she was up early to welcome to your Lordships’ House academics, policymakers and practitioners from not just the creative industries but the AI sector as part of the University of Oxford’s consultation on copyright and AI, as she mentioned in her opening remarks.

The Government keep making this sound like it is a binary choice between two competing sectors. It is not. As my noble friend Lord Vaizey just reminded us, responsible innovators from the AI sector know how vital design and creativity are to all parts of our economy, as well as to our society. They do not want to base their businesses on the theft of others’ intellectual property, paternity rights, maternity rights, pension rights and so much more, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, said. It was announced last week that Taylor Swift had succeeded in buying back the rights to her first six albums, after many years of legal wrangling, for a nine-figure sum. It would be a cruel irony for her to have expended all that time and money only for her brilliant work to be stolen and fed into a large language model with no transparency and no accountability.

The creative industries have spoken with one voice on this—something that is rather unique—but well they might, for this is existential to them. That is why it is so disappointing that the Government have not responded to the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the many noble Lords who have joined her in the Division Lobbies in the previous rounds of ping-pong to express their concerns about this issue. They have not engaged on the point of substance behind her amendments but have relied on arguments of process. There is nothing in the noble Baroness’s latest amendment in lieu—her third attempt to offer a solution to the Government—that engages the financial privilege of another place.

I hope we will hear more from the Minister on the substance of the argument and on the substance of this new amendment, rather than an attempt to run down the clock or to hide behind process. I hope we might yet, even at this late stage, get a glimmer of the compromise that the noble Lords, Lord Cashman and Lord Brennan of Canton, and others have hoped for. There is a long-standing convention that your Lordships’ House respects the will of the elected one, of course. But it would not be a constitutional crisis, as the Minister put it in the closing words of her opening remarks, for noble Lords to continue to express their concerns about this Bill, because that convention relies on the Government engaging faithfully and relying not just on points of process but on points of substance.

At a time when the Government are seeking to weaken the scrutiny functions of your Lordships’ House by removing almost 90 Members—all but three of whom are from outwith their own Benches—they need to treat your Lordships’ House with a bit more respect if they want those conventions to be adhered to. I pay tribute to the tenacity of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron.

Football Governance Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay

Committee stage
Wednesday 4th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I am happy to say a bit more. This is a probing amendment, and I am keen to hear the views of others. My concern is about how public facing a figure this new regulator is to be. I am mindful of comparisons with debates on legislation that I have taken through. We benefited in the scrutiny of the work of Ofcom and the new online safety regulatory regime from having the noble Lord, Lord Grade of Yarmouth, here in your Lordships’ House. He attended and sat through all our debates in Committee and on Report but did not speak because he felt that it was important that he heard the views of Parliament but did not actively participate in the debate about the regulatory regime that Ofcom would be following once Parliament had given it its instructions. The self-denying ordinance that he applied and the rules of debate in your Lordships’ House made it easier for him than it might have been had he been a commentator on television or frequently appearing on television and in media interviews and being asked about the work.

I am sure we want to see the regulator held accountable publicly as well as to Parliament, and I look forward to our debates on later groups about how we ensure greater accountability to Parliament for the work that it does. I am sure that fans will have strong views about the work of the regulator, just as they do about how referees conduct their duties during matches. However, I wonder whether somebody who is taking on this role, potentially one with a large and unlimited salary, should be combining that with ongoing media interests in which they have a commercial interest in adding to the drama and to public debate about the game. I will be grateful for the Committee’s views on that matter.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

I imagine that this could be a rather tricky area, for the reasons we have just heard. I can see that someone who has great expertise —an ex-international, for example—would be useful on a board and may be asked occasionally to comment, which would not mean a great deal of compensation or money. I am sure the noble Lord does not want to see those sorts of people excluded.

Classical Music

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay

Thursday 7th December 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

We are tripling funding for the Music Export Growth Scheme to more than £3 million over the next two years, which will enable more touring artists to break into new international markets. We are also expanding our Export Support Service to further help creative exporters, including touring musicians. We want our musicians to tour the world so that their work can be enjoyed overseas, just as it is here in the UK—including in Yorkshire.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

May I ask the Minister to comment at a more grass-roots level? In the last few months, we have lost the Dartington summer festival, which is educational as well; we have lost Oxford Brookes University teaching music; and we have lost a lot of the Cheltenham Festivals’ work. I declare my interest as an ex-director of the Cheltenham international festival of music. I was there for 10 years and commissioned works—more than 100—as my successors continue to do. Not only are we losing this commissioning opportunity, which is so important for young composers, but local audiences in places that identify as being under-resourced in music are losing out.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

On a recent visit to Devon, I had the opportunity to meet the new chief executive of Dartington Trust. The noble Lord is right to point to the brilliant work done by Cheltenham Festivals in his time and subsequently. Arts Council England has maintained its level of funding for Cheltenham Festivals at £217,000 per year, but I would be very happy to meet people from Cheltenham Festivals as well as others.

BBC: Appointment and Resignation of Chair

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay

Tuesday 2nd May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The process for appointing the chair of the BBC is set out in the BBC’s royal charter. It requires an appointment to be made by Order in Council following a fair and open competition. By convention, the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport recommends the appointment to the Lord President of the Council, and the Prime Minister recommends the appointment to His Majesty the King. It is important that the process be followed and that all public appointments be set out and conducted in accordance with the Government’s code.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a freelance broadcaster for the BBC. Does the Minister agree that there is a parallel here with your Lordships’ House? For example, we read endless headlines about prime ministerial appointments to the House but very little about the hours and hours of scrutiny that go into legislation. So it is with the BBC, but this has very little to do with the workforce, who produce programmes day in, day out. It has more to do, as we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Birt, with the selection and appointment process.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord. Indeed, Mr. Sharp pointed in his own resignation statement and letters to his regret at the distraction this has caused to the corporation. We are very lucky indeed to have the BBC in this country, producing the world-class television and radio content I mentioned in my first response.

Music Industry

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay

Monday 17th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I must disagree with my noble friend. The Arts Council’s portfolio, which has now begun, includes around £21 million per annum of investment in music. That is £2 million more than in the previous round. Nearly 80% of the Arts Council’s investment in music is in classical music and nearly 40% is in opera. My noble friend mentioned a number of things that time does not allow me to touch on, but I welcome the BBC’s announcement that it will review its decision in relation to the BBC Singers and the BBC orchestras. He may have seen the announcement from the Arts Council and English National Opera that they have agreed £11.46 million of funding for the first year, and the Arts Council has set a budget of £24 million of investment for the second two years, inviting the company to make an application to it for that amount. The Foreign Secretary raised touring at the EU-UK Partnership Council, as we continue to raise this at the highest levels with the EU.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

First, does the Minister understand the concern of the music industry, in that in state schools, for example, there are no peripatetic music teachers? That means that poor pupils do not get music lessons, which become the preserve of the rich. There is a follow-on from this: our orchestras will not be replenished by young people—young students. Secondly, on the problems with touring in Europe, Boris Johnson assured us that such problems would not happen. The noble Lord, Lord Frost, has admitted that the Government got it wrong, not just with visas but where cabotage comes in: you might get a visa but arrive with no instruments. When will the Government get it right?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord about the importance of ensuring that pupils in the state sector have opportunities. I myself benefited from a peripatetic music teacher at school. Our national plan for music education is ensuring that high-quality music education is available everywhere. We are working with the Department for Education on the cultural education plan; the noble Baroness, Lady Bull, is very kindly helping to ensure that we cast the net as widely as possible to capture best practice and are ambitious. On the creative industries sector vision, we are working to ensure that the talent pipelines are there so that we can continue to have a globally competitive music industry of which we can be proud; it enriches our lives in so many ways. I have pointed to the work that the Foreign Secretary has taken forward with the EU-UK Partnership Council in relation to touring.

BBC: Government Role in Impartiality

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay

Wednesday 15th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

Decisions about salaries are for the BBC, but the Government have urged transparency over those payments, so that licence fee payers are aware of how their money is being spent.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a freelance composer and broadcaster for the BBC, although at a somewhat less august salary level than Mr Gary Lineker. The Minister would probably accept, as we all do, that there is a difference between not making political observations in programmes that you are aligned to and being free to express your conscience when you are talking about something which has nothing to do with sport or, in my case, music. Does he understand that musicians feel rather beleaguered, given the Arts Council England cuts, coupled with this own goal of scrapping the BBC Singers, the only professional group of its sort in this country?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

Questions about how people who work for the BBC use social media and how their activity adheres to the BBC’s social media guidelines are for the corporation to determine. The noble Lord, who does not tweet, I think, and certainly not in a way that causes any controversy, is right to draw attention to the decisions about the BBC Singers and BBC orchestras, although again those decisions are for the BBC to set out and justify to licence fee payers, in the context of how it spends their money. The noble Lord referred to Arts Council England cuts. I remind him that the amount of money being dispensed by Arts Council England in the new portfolio is larger than in the previous one, and classical music accounts for a great deal of its musical output. However, he is right to draw your Lordships’ attention to this important issue.

Channel 4: Annual Report

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay

Thursday 21st July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

It is not about this year’s results; it is about securing the long-term sustainability of Channel 4. Channel 4 is particularly dependent on advertising revenue. Fewer people are watching live advertising. The cost of independent production is rising because of the entry into the market of global streaming giants, so we want to make sure that, in the decades to come, Channel 4 is able to raise the capital to continue doing what it is doing so successfully now.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister at all concerned that privatisation might mean that artistic innovation is sacrificed? Very often, that is where money can be lost, simply in terms of views, as the Minister has just outlined. Therefore, that is the first thing that tends to go.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

No, I am not. According to PACT, only 7% of the total independent production sector revenue came from Channel 4 commissions. Channel 4 spends less on commissioning than ITV, which is of course privately owned. We think the things that Channel 4 does are what make it so successful. We are convinced that any future owner would want to continue to build on those things.

Covid-19: Entertainment and Arts Venues

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay

Tuesday 14th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, the department, both at official level and ministerially, has been speaking to the sector throughout the pandemic. Of course, we have stepped that up since the move to plan B. I have a meeting tomorrow with our venue steering group so that I can hear from it myself. I have been to two theatres since we moved into plan B: the Young Vic on Thursday, and the Greenwich Theatre to see the pantomime at the weekend. I am pleased to report that they were full houses of people wearing masks. The most important thing we can do to support not just the cultural sector but every part of our economy is to get our boosters, wear our masks and have consideration for those around us.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, given that so many freelancers fell through the Government’s welcome support network during Covid, the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, promised from the Dispatch Box to write to me about the rules concerning universal credit, because she accepted that there was a problem. Would the Minister be kind enough to fulfil that promise, as I have yet to hear from her? Also, the double whammy of Covid and the restrictions on touring have really hit the musical sector. Given that the Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, told us that the advantages of Brexit would outweigh the disadvantages, could the Minister enlighten me as to what advantages the creative sector has so far garnered?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott has been away for a few days, so I will certainly pick that up with her office to make sure that the noble Lord gets the answer to his first question. I also have a meeting with counterparts in the DWP to take up this issue in response to a question we had in a debate recently with the noble Lord, Lord Cashman, and others. As the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, knows, we continue to work bilaterally on touring. We provide information on GOV.UK to make sure that the sector has clarity about the rules, and we are making progress with many other countries in ensuring that they match the welcoming access we provide to musicians who want to come to the UK.

Bahrain: Human Rights Abuses

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay

Thursday 15th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The UK remains opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances and all countries as a matter of principle. The Government of Bahrain are fully aware that we are firmly opposed to the death penalty, and our good relationship allows us to have honest dialogue and raise points on that. We raise the matter regularly, both at ministerial and official level, publicly and privately, including during the Minister for the Middle East and North Africa’s most recent visit to Bahrain.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I am sure the Minister will agree that influence can often be exerted through the interchange of culture and sport. Amnesty International has identified the Grand Prix in Bahrain as being a huge event through which we should try to put pressure. Are efforts being made in this direction with, for example, Formula 1?

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I will have to double-check the point that the noble Lord raises about Formula 1 and write to him to confirm that, but he is absolutely right to highlight the role that cultural exchange—sport, music and the arts—plays in strengthening our relationships and standing up for our fundamental values.

Her Majesty the Queen’s Platinum Jubilee

Debate between Lord Berkeley of Knighton and Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay

Monday 16th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

I am very happy to reassure my noble friend on that point. As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State said in the Statement, the Government are working with the Royal Household, the devolved Administrations and the Commonwealth on a programme of events that will unite every generation in all 54 countries of the Commonwealth, from the South Pacific islands to the Canadian Arctic, in celebration of Her Majesty. That is the depth of our undertaking.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, as a composer and broadcaster, naturally I very much support the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury. I suggest to the Minister that if the Arts Council, the DCMS and the BBC joined hands, they could commission a huge raft of artists in this country who have been stymied from producing creative work. Choreographers, composers and designers could join hands to make something substantial. In order to make something substantial, we must move quite soon, because these people are very busy, and creating great work takes time.

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right. The Statement is being made now to give people advance notice, so that they can get planning to make the most of a truly important occasion and to make these celebrations to remember. We are working with the UK’s leading creative minds on exactly the sorts of things that the noble Lord mentioned, to make the Platinum Jubilee a weekend to remember.