Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments and / or reasons
Monday 12th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Black, mentioned Beethoven. In declaring my interests as a composer, I should also mention that I have acted as an expert witness in cases of musical copyright. While doing that, I was asked by one of my learned friends, “What constitutes something that’s worthy of copyright?” I said, “Ba ba ba bom”. Why? Because that, in terms of the law, is a substantial idea. Just think what has been made of it ever since. The whole notion of copyright comes down to something valuable; it does not matter how long or how short it is. Creativity in the UK is already, I am afraid, in a somewhat parlous state and any erosion of copyright will add yet another cut to an already wounded body.

The Minister mentioned technology and, of course, we all use technology. We all want to use technology. The famous composers—wonderful songwriters, including Paul McCartney, Elton John and Sting—who have headed the letter to the Prime Minister, have all used technology to great effect. With the greatest respect, it is slightly insulting to say to them that we are pulling the shutters down because we want to know who is using our music. That cannot be something, intellectually, that holds water. People need to know how their music is being used. They have a right to know.

Why is this an important factor? Let me give the example, which I have mentioned once before in your Lordships’ House, of what happened with streaming. In other words, we have been bitten once already. In a way, I welcome opening music and the arts to the whole world through the internet, and streaming certainly does that, but what did it do? A very well-known musician, a top 10 artist, said to me the other day, “Where does all this money go? It doesn’t go to us”. If you ask Paul McCartney, Elton John or Sting how their royalties have changed over the years, they will tell you that they have gone down massively.

This is not just about famous musicians. Paul McCartney, Elton John and Sting would be the first to say that this is also about the little-known songwriters who at the moment make a pittance but are hoping to make something. Obviously, those famous names attract attention. It is quite right that they do and I am grateful for their support. However, there is also a whole other section, the contemporary classical music section, which I know supports the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, as do writers, theatre directors and filmmakers. This is a very dangerous Bill if we cannot curtail this.

I am glad the Minister is listening and wants to help and wants to find a way through. If we do not make improvements to this, we could be short-changing something that brings an absolute fortune into the Treasury: not just a fortune in money but a fortune in joy. I have mentioned Paul McCartney, Elton John and Sting—think about what they have brought into people’s lives. Although my section, the contemporary classical section, may be less famous and less well known, those musicians too have a right to be heard. Their view is that, if you allow, for example, training—it is suggested that it might be okay to allow people to use our products in training—that is the thin end of the wedge.

When streaming came in, the record industry virtually disappeared. I know the manager of a classical record company who said to me, “Why would we want to record this piece? It’s already out there on the internet”. You have to think about what follows on from opening this world up. I think the Government are listening, and many noble Lords have pointed out exactly what the dangers are.

I certainly will support my noble friend Lady Kidron. She has done sterling work. We are not making a fuss about nothing. This is the thin end of the wedge and we have to try to curtail it now for the future of music—and indeed all the other arts—in this country.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston (Con)]

I welcome the government additions made to the Bill in the Commons and endorse my noble friend Lord Camrose’s amendments, especially those relating to removing barriers to entry. It is vital that AI does not end up controlled by the same tech firms that dominate cloud, search and social media. This important new technology presents an opportunity for challenger firms and new markets to emerge, including affordable access to quality copyrighted data. Much of what I will say in a moment is very much with them in mind.

As to the amendment on transparency from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, she is right, in the context of copyright, to prioritise transparency. As I have argued before, whatever kind of solution is eventually adopted, opt out or opt in, transparency will be necessary for that solution to work.

The noble Baroness is also right to press the urgency of this. Content creators cannot afford to wait, so she has my support and my vote. Indeed, with the support of both the Conservative and Lib Dem Benches today, the Government could well be defeated. That would be most welcome. I am sure the Minister does not like me saying that, but that is my view.

That said, there are some aspects of the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, that may, at this juncture, be a little bit too prescriptive for primary legislation ahead of a policy decision on the solution for how to uphold copyright. I will focus briefly on what happens next if the Government are defeated tonight.

I strongly urge the Government not to do what they can: remove the clause that the noble Baroness would add to the Bill once it got back down the other end. Instead, what I urge the Government to do what they should: bring back an amendment in lieu. We all want a future for AI, where the creative industries and the tech sector—big and little tech—can be confident that the playing field for competition is fair and, when it comes to the use of copyrighted content, that they can strike mutually beneficial deals.

We may be a little way off from achieving that way forward, as is reflected in the Government’s additions to the Bill and the work they have promised over the next 12 months, but that work should not preclude the Government taking a power in the Bill to bring back secondary legislation to address transparency as soon as they have finished the work outlined in their Amendment 46. As other noble Lords have already argued, transparency is needed now and, as I have said, it will be relevant to whatever policy solution the Government decide on. So, a requirement on them to act in this area is not unreasonable.

From the perspective of content creators, who, it has to be said, may well be immensely powerful in ensuring that they get publicity and coverage of their cause, the future looks highly uncertain. So, a binding commitment with a deadline to bring forward transparency regulations at this juncture, while the Bill is going through Parliament, is reasonable if such a new clause is not overly prescriptive. That is what I would advise the Government to do next, assuming they are defeated tonight.

Employment Rights Bill

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 29th April 2025 Lords Chamber

Much of this seems to be an unknown, which begs the need for a detailed impact assessment of the creative industries. My noble friend Lord Freyberg has put down an amendment to that effect that we will hear later in the Bill. Such an assessment should be a deep dive into the differing kinds of jobs and work status in this sector. The amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, was introduced only on Friday, belying its considerable importance to the creative industries. I hope that he will bring it back on Report, because we need time to hear differing views from the full range of stakeholders on this issue.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I was prepared to put my name to this amendment because I believe that the whole nature of the creative industries, and theatre and festivals in particular, depends on flexibility. Let me give noble Lords an example. When I joined the board of the Royal Opera House, there were in place at the time union restrictions which meant that several operas in the repertoire would go beyond them because they could not possibly fit into that time. The unions and management got together and worked out a flexibility that would allow operas—Wagner’s, for example—to go beyond the hours without penalising people. It is a give-and-take situation. The arts need the flexibility that the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, is suggesting in his amendment, and I simply rise to endorse it.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

My Lords, I am going to stick with being very brief. We have had three exceptionally powerful speeches. Amendment 16 is, in a sense, tackling a subset of a debate that this Committee has already had on Amendment 7 in the name of my noble and good friend Lord Goddard. I hope that the Government are beginning to accept that not all work comes in steady flows; it can have peaks and troughs and be disrupted by events way beyond anybody’s control. I hope that the Minister is going to take this away and work out how the current drafting needs to change in order to make the necessary allowances, whether it is for theatres, festivals, farmers or food and drink. A whole series of activities that experience those irregular patterns must be incorporated into this Bill.

Trade (Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership) Bill [HL]

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 16th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, on the whole I tend to support the idea of having one’s sparring partners join the club, because there is then a way to communicate. The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, made this point. Communication is incredibly important, such as through cultural and sporting exchange.

However, the points made by my noble friend Lord Alton seem to me to rather trump that consideration. The noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, said that we would be making an exception in the case of this country. But why would we make an exception? I suggest that the answer lies in my noble friend’s point that the country has behaved exceptionally and therefore that we have to take that into account.

Finally, I say that we must learn from the Post Office affair, for example, which we will come on to, that we can never probe enough—we need to look at things in depth, especially something such as this where there are clearly areas that we could consider more thoroughly. I repeat what the noble Lord said: this is a plea to look further. It is not doing anything else at this stage. It asks the Government to allow us to look further at something that has considerable consequences.

[Lord Leong (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions and the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, for presenting this amendment calling on the Secretary of State to publish a report assessing the potential impact of China’s accession to the CPTPP on the United Kingdom and saying that both Houses of Parliament must be presented with a Motion for resolution on the said report.

As the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, indicated earlier, we on this side of the House would have preferred this amendment to cover all new accession countries—but for the purposes of this amendment I will refer just to China. Several noble Lords spoke in Committee on the case for this amendment and I do not propose to repeat what was said. However, I will make noble Lords aware of China’s non-market trade practices and its history of using economic coercion against CPTPP members, which must be considered in any valuation of its prospective accession.

First, there are aggressive military exercises and drills in the Taiwan Strait that threaten peace and stability in the South China Sea. This could be destabilising to regional trade. In addition, China has ongoing territorial disputes with other CPTPP members, including Japan, Malaysia, Brunei and Vietnam. Its willingness to use coercion against countries that disagree with it has often strained relationships with several CPTPP members. For example, it halted imports of Canadian canola and meat products in response to the arrest of a Huawei executive in Vancouver. Japan was denied access to rare earth materials in 2010 and Australian exports have suffered from Chinese import bans. Furthermore, several CPTPP member states have expressed concerns that China’s subsidies of state-owned firms and arbitrary application laws would be likely to make it hard for the country to join the trade pact.

I wanted to quote two examples, but the noble Lord, Lord Alton, mentioned the Japanese State Minister, so I will leave it at that and bring in another example of our very own British CPTPP trade negotiator, Graham Zebedee. Without commenting specifically on China’s application, if a country’s economic rules are really quite far apart from what CPTPP says, inevitably there is quite a big question about whether they could undertake really massive reforms. These concerns alone seem to provide sound justification for the commissioning of a report and Motion for resolution, as required by this amendment, so that both Houses of Parliament have the opportunity to fully consider the case for and against China’s accession to the trading bloc.

Recent newspaper reports have shown the lengths to which President Xi will go to crack down on companies when strengthening his control of the economy. Business leaders in China are under immense pressure. Last year, more than a dozen top executives from sectors including technology, finance and real estate went missing, faced detention or were accused of corruption practices. China’s national security law, as mentioned by my noble friend Lady Kennedy, is dangerously vague and broad. Virtually anything could be deemed a threat to national security under its provision and it can be applied to anyone on this planet. This law has provided little or no protection to people targeted. Lawyers, scholars, journalists, pastors and NGO workers have all been convicted of national security offences, simply for exercising their freedom of expression and defending human rights. Business leaders may face the same treatment.

China’s current policies and practices are at odds with many of the provisions and requirements of the CPTPP, and it is unlikely to be able to conform to them unless current members agree to significant concessions in the negotiations. This is why concerns about coercion are particularly relevant. Without considerable concessions, it is hard to see how China would qualify for accession. Equally, China is highly unlikely to make the changes to its laws and regulatory systems that would be required to gain the acceptance of CPTPP.

We are obviously sympathetic to the arguments made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and others in support of this amendment. However, there is not yet any agreement for any other country to join the partnership. It would be improper to single out any one of the possible new members at this stage, including China. At Second Reading and in Committee, we put on record our strong concern about China’s human rights record, but we believe that our human rights concerns should be universal and that one country should not be singled out. Should the noble Lord, Lord Alton, decide to divide the House on this amendment, we will abstain.