Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Monday 12th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con)]

My Lords, there is a question that I have been asked on many occasions over the past week and I am now able to answer it. Now that the progress of business is certain, it may be for the convenience of the House if I indicate that I expect Royal Commissioners to attend this House at the end of business on Wednesday this week to signify Royal Assent to several Bills and to prorogue Parliament until 4 June. The exact time of the ceremony will be settled on Wednesday itself, once the flow of business in both Houses is clear.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her statement advising the House of the date of Prorogation. I make one simple point. We on these Benches have long predicted this particular day in view of the flow of government business. However, the House is being underused. It is clear from the figures that we are losing about 10% of active days of consideration in your Lordships’ House. I am sure my colleagues share my view that this is highly unsatisfactory. We do a very good job and we do it well, but it is not right for the Government to play fast and loose with this House when it comes to the proper consideration of business.

I welcome what the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, has said, and I am glad that the statement has been made. It gives some certainty to Members of your Lordships’ House. However, the other matters bear further consideration.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, in the past the Leader of the Opposition has made points about sitting patterns, and certain figures have been shown to her. Therefore, I am more than a little surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, continues to allege that this House is somehow sitting for some 10% less than its normal pattern. I just happen to have the figures with me.

The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, raises a serious point. This House is very adept at holding the Government to account and I know that it will continue to do so. The Opposition Front Bench is charged with that task and always carries it out to a high level of ability. I do not underestimate that at all.

It might be helpful if I refer to the working days available to this House. Without wishing to be too tedious, over the three most recent Sessions, if one looks at working days lost—in other words, working days on which we did not sit—at Christmas 2011 it was 10, at Christmas 2012 it was 10 and at Christmas 2013 it was 10. At Easter 2012 it was 15, at Easter 2013 it was 15 and at Easter 2014 it was 15. At Whitsun it was six days in 2012, including the extra bank holiday for the Diamond Jubilee, last year it was six and this year it will be six. With regard to Prorogation, in the Sessions 2010-12 and 2012-13 it was four days. For Prorogation last year it went up to seven. It has come down to five this year. There has been a perception—it is only a perception—that we have had longer, because of the way in which public holidays fall for Easter, Whit and Prorogation. On this occasion, Prorogation and Whit happen to be consecutive, but they would have happened anyway. I have plenty more figures, but that shows that we have a pattern and that we have kept to it.

Comments have been made about the Summer Recess. It is true that we went down to nine weeks last year, but it was 10 the year before and it is 10 this year. I have every confidence that this House will do the job that it does superbly, which is to hold any Government to account at all the proper times.

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[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

I have a simple question. Will the noble Baroness agree to publish, in a letter placed in the Library, the stats on a per annum basis for the number of sitting days that the House has had since 2010?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I can certainly look at that and see what helpful figures—helpful to the noble Lord—we can give. With regard to advance notice, I sympathise with those noble Lords who travel a great distance here and try to have some regular pattern of attendance. The problem normally arises only with Prorogation, as it is simply impossible to predict when it might take place. I follow the pattern, which has always been the case, that one can make the announcement only once this House has completed its legislative business. That, of course, does not include statutory instruments but only the substantive primary Bills themselves. I could have waited another 24 hours, because normally one gives only 24 hours’ notice. However, I am always keen to give as much advance information as possible because I recognise, with sympathy, that Prorogation can cause a particular difficulty.

Business

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Wednesday 29th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, I apologise for being a bit presumptuous. Perhaps I may take this opportunity to raise an issue on which I am sure the whole House would like some guidance. Will the government Chief Whip clarify her intentions as to the minimum intervals to be applied to the European Union (Referendum) Bill? It is our assumption on these Benches that, should the Bill complete its Committee stage on Friday 31 January or 7 February, Report will take place on 28 February. Can the Chief Whip confirm that that is her intention?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con)]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, for his courtesy in giving me advance notice that he was going to raise a question on the matter. He did not actually say what the question would be, but I got the rough idea of what it might refer to and I am genuinely grateful to him. He will be aware that I did not intend to be at Question Time today, not because I am uninterested—I listened to every word, as I always do—but because in the coalition Government I share attendance at Question Time with my coalition partner, the noble Lord, Lord Newby, which is why he was here today. That is why I was not in the House earlier.

The noble Lord asked a question about minimum intervals and, in the same breath, referred to Committee having not yet concluded. He also referred to Committee being scheduled for a later date than this coming Friday. I gently remind the House of a couple of things. First, there is a straightforward answer to all this. Matters concerning the intervals of Bills are not considered until one has secured Committee. This House has not concluded Committee, and matters to do with when Report or other stages might be follow at the end of Committee. That is the normal procedure.

Secondly, the noble Lord refers to different dates. I took the chance to check what I said last week—I thought that my memory was okay, but we like to be sure. Towards the end of Committee on Friday, I referred to the fact that we would continue Committee on the Bill next Friday, 31 January, at 10 am. It is at col. 957 of Hansard. I expressed my expectation that Committee stage would finish on that day, this Friday, and I believe it was a realistic assumption given the rate of progress of business last week. It is still my reasonable assumption that Committee will conclude this Friday, and it is at that stage that matters to do with other stages will be considered. That is the time to do it, not now.

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[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, I find that easy to accept, but all I am asking is for the noble Baroness to confirm that she will advise the House to abide by the minimum intervals set out in the Companion. In the end, it is a yes or no question.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, this is a self-regulating House. The Companion has rules that set out the process in different circumstances. It is a matter that is considered at the end of Committee. That is not far away. I urge a little patience. I know that the House may soon become impatient because we have serious matters to address in the Children and Families Bill; I know that many noble Lords have attended the House for that.

I am not in a position to go further than I would in any other case. This is not a time for consideration of how the Bill will proceed after Committee has been concluded. It has not yet been concluded; my expectation is that it will on Friday.

European Union (Referendum) Bill

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Friday 24th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con)]

The noble Lord is inviting others to intervene. I know that when he impugns my integrity I need to come to the Dispatch Box to explain that I have followed precisely the same procedure in all these matters as my predecessors in a Labour Government. I am aware that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, has exchanged with the Telegraph online the contents of a private letter that I sent to him in the usual channels. I will give the noble Lord the opportunity to respond, but may I just complete saying that I have absolutely followed every rule? If the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, says that he did not discuss the terms of that letter and that the Telegraph obtained it by other means, I will welcome his assurance on that matter.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

The noble Baroness, for whom I have the greatest respect, makes a number of allegations, which are completely unfounded. Nobody could have been more surprised than I to receive a telephone call from the Telegraph, which I referred to our communications adviser, yesterday afternoon. I was extraordinarily disappointed to hear about what I had assumed was confidential correspondence, seeking simply two things—a clarification of the Chief Whip’s role in the business of the House today but, more importantly, some idea of when the business of the House might conclude. I had hoped that we would have a reasonable time put before your Lordships’ House this morning for business to be conducted within. I am appalled that that correspondence was leaked; it is not my practice to leak correspondence. I genuinely believed when I wrote that letter that it was a letter written in confidence and I would appreciate an apology on this point.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I am very glad to hear that the noble Lord did not leak that. I certainly could come to only one conclusion. I am very disappointed that anybody should leak private information, because I always value my exchanges with the noble Lord, Lord Bassam. We have worked together well and we will continue to do so. All I can say is that anybody who has revealed that information has acted improperly. I know that this House wishes to proceed in a proper manner and I assure the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that I have followed every single procedure of every previous government Chief Whip.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Tuesday 12th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con)]

My Lords, before I move that the House resumes and, thereafter, adjourns, I would like to inform the House that, by agreement with the usual channels today, our business next Monday has changed. It will be the second day in Committee on the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill and it will not be the first day on Report of the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill.

That change and other agreed changes to our business over the next couple of weeks are reflected in the new edition of Forthcoming Business. I thought that it would be for the convenience of the House, particularly as we are about to go into recess, if I brought forward the publication of Forthcoming Business to today, rather than leaving it until tomorrow, so that the Convenor and the Chief Whips of all groups may send out that information as soon as possible. I am grateful to the noble Lord the Opposition Chief Whip for his co-operation in this matter.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness the Chief Whip for the Government for the gracious way in which she has dealt with this issue and record my thanks to her and the Government for responding positively and flexibly to our proposals to reorganise business. I hope that the House is happy with that, it having been somewhat unhappy at an earlier stage. This all helps to ensure that the usual channels work as well as possible for all concerned.

Local Government: Provisional Finance Settlement

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Wednesday 19th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn. That is something that is said every day that the House sits, but it is very special at this time of year. It is customary, and my privilege, to pay tribute to our staff on behalf of the whole House. The staff have supported us throughout the year. They do so with great professionalism and dedication, which I know is recognised and appreciated by us all.

This is also an opportunity to put on record our particular thanks to long-serving members of the staff who have recently retired or who are about to do so. I would like to begin by acknowledging the work of Mr Allan Roberts, who retires as Counsel to the Chairman of Committees at the end of next month. His office goes back more than 200 years and was originally established to provide legal support for the Lord Chairman’s responsibilities for private legislation. We now see few private Bills compared with those early days when the construction of canals, turnpikes and railways was at its peak. In modern times, the House’s need for legal services in other areas has continued to grow. We have seen much of that quite recently. Mr Roberts now leads a team of three lawyers which, as well as dealing with private business, also provides advice to the Clerk of the Parliaments and other parts of the House administration and to committees on very diverse topics such as statutory instruments, ecclesiastical measures, delegated powers and Bills.

I know that the House will miss not only his considerable professional skills, but also his sound judgment and his quiet dedication to supporting us in our legislative work. The respect in which we all—both Opposition, Cross Bench and the Government—hold the Delegated Powers Committee has, for many years, been in large part due to Mr Roberts’s measured legal advice. We wish him well in his retirement, which I understand should afford him the chance to follow even more closely the fortunes of—this is a football club I do not usually make reference to but I will this time—Tottenham Hotspur Football Club in which he takes a keen interest.

I would also like to thank Rosemary Mannering, who is retiring after 25 years working in the House. Rosemary started work in the Public Bill Office in 1987, but for the past 15 years she has worked as a committee assistant, supporting the Justice, Institutions and Consumer Protection Sub-Committee of the European Union Committee. The Committee Office has had a particularly busy year supporting our increased committee activity and we owe a great debt of gratitude to all those who work, usually of course behind the scenes, to make all that possible. Our Select Committees are so rightly praised as the jewel in the crown of the work of this House. Rosemary is regarded with much affection by all those who have worked with her and I understand that many clerks and chairmen have had particular cause to thank her for her scrupulous attention to detail and thorough proof reading, something which I cannot do. That has prevented such infelicities as “daft legislation”. Hey ho. Good luck to those who will continue her dutiful work. I am sure that the House will wish to join me in wishing Rosemary all the best for her retirement, which will certainly be starting in the right way with a visit to the Tate’s excellent pre-Raphaelite exhibition.

Finally, I would most warmly like to thank Peggy Vega Byatt whose friendly service in the various bars around the House—that sounds awful but we know what we mean—will be familiar and welcome to all of us. What may be less well known is that Peggy started working in Peers’ Dining Room in 1974, which means that she has clocked up a very impressive 38 years of service. I understand, therefore, that in the case of many hereditary Peers, she has served multiple holders of the title in the family along the way. I am sure she has trained them well and I am sure we wish her all the very best in her retirement and in her relocation to Spain with her husband. I understand that she plans to visit when she returns to the country on holiday, and we look forward to seeing her back around the House, I hope, before too long. She really is a very special person in this House, and I know that many Peers have taken the opportunity over the past weeks and months to make a personal statement to her of how much they have appreciated what she has done and how we really will miss her.

All that remains for me to do is to wish all Members and staff of this House a most restful and enjoyable Christmas. Before this House adjourns, I know that the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, the Opposition Chief Whip, will wish to speak, and that the deputy Convenor of the Liberal Democrat Benches, the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, and the Convenor, the noble Lord, Lord Laming, will also wish to make their contributions.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the Government Chief Whip for enabling us all to pass on our good wishes to our staff and our thanks for their long and active service in your Lordships’ House. At this time I always like to put on record my thanks to our catering staff, cleaners, conservators, police, secretarial support, librarians, and maintenance and security staff, because I know that they work very long hours on our behalf and do a fantastic job.

I, too, want to make particular reference at this time to three members of staff for their long service. The first is Elaine Morgan, who was a committee assistant in the Committee Office, and was also formerly a higher personal secretary to the Law Lords Office. Elaine had 23 years of service and has retired this year. She initially worked in the House of Commons—the other place—joining the Parliament Office in 1989. In 1998 she was promoted to higher personal secretary in the Committee Office. In January 2002 she was transferred to the Judicial Office, electing to return to the Committee Office in 2009, when the Supreme Court was established. She was highly regarded by all of her colleagues in the Committee Office, who miss her conscientious attitude to her work and her kindly and supportive manner. Elaine was one of the pioneers of flexible working among House of Lords staff and for a while worked on a week on, week off basis. She plans to start her retirement apparently with some home improvements—well, good luck to her; it is a very noble cause—but is also looking forward to having more time to pursue her hobbies of sailing, cycling and walking. She also hopes to do some voluntary work for local organisations in and around Chichester harbour in the very fine county of Sussex.

The second member of staff I want to pay tribute to is Simon Jones, who has been an executive officer in the Printed Paper Office for much of the past 30 years that he has worked here, and he has only recently retired. He joined the House of Lords in 1982 as a clerical officer in what was then the Record Office and is now, of course, the very well regarded Parliamentary Archives. On promotion to executive officer, he moved to the Printed Paper Office in 1990, where he covered the front desk, which he enjoyed very much. In 1992 he was one of three staff on a small team assisting the staff adviser to check the grading of staff right across the House’s employ. In 1996 he transferred from the Printed Paper Office to the Law Lords Library, and in 1999 he moved back to the Printed Paper Office, this time to deal with office supplies, photocopiers and the mechanics of making the office function well. That post was transferred to the Facilities Department in April of this year, and Simon retired on 27 October. Outside work, Simon’s interests include film-making, photography and art. He plans an extended break in New Zealand during 2013. Colleagues commenting on Simon’s hard work said that he was always helpful, unfailingly polite and an incredibly helpful and courteous colleague, and I am sure that all Members of the House who came across Simon would agree with that.

The third person I want to make reference to is Richard Jacques. This is a rather sad one because Richard passed away this year very unexpectedly. He was a doorkeeper and joined the staff here in 2003 following a very long career in the RAF. Doorkeepers tell me that he was very watchful and mindful of the health of colleagues in the House, particularly Members of the House. During his time in the RAF, Mr Jacques was highly trained in the field of medicine, and his final years in the RAF were spent at RAF Lyneham as part of a tactical medical team flying all over the world to bring casualties back to the United Kingdom —no easy task.

Sadly, Mr Jacques was found dead at his home in Lyneham at the end of September. I know that everyone in the House who knew Mr Jacques was saddened by that, especially his colleagues.

I know that three other Doorkeepers are leaving the employ of the House; Mr Duff, Mr Benny and Mr Dryden. They are all formerly Metropolitan Police officers. It is not my intention to go on at length about their great service here, but I know that we will all miss them. Their good humour, their wit and careful and watchful eye keeps us all in good order and ensures that the House functions as it should.

It remains to me, too, to say a word of thanks to all Members of the House for their tireless work and to pay tribute to the Government Chief Whip for the courteous way in which she conducts business. I pay tribute to her work in the usual channels. I wish everyone else in the House a happy Christmas and all the best for the new year.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Tuesday 18th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, this may be a convenient point to make a business statement relating to the proceedings today. Clearly, when the matters before us were set down, we had anticipated in the usual channels that the approach to Third Reading would be normal—that is, the practice of the House is normally to resolve major points of difference by the end of Report stage and to use Third Reading for tidying up. Therefore, in the usual channels we felt that we were making an appropriate disposition of business today, whereby this Bill would be followed in the normal manner by a short Second Reading and that, after that, we could have a debate on—if I can colloquially call it this—matters of Leveson.

This Third Reading has gone beyond the normal time that one would expect for a Third Reading, and indeed some of the discussions have gone quite wide. Therefore, something that one might describe it as a little bit of a delegation came from those interested Peers who had been sitting very patiently waiting for their opportunity to take part in what, after all, is a major debate on the press and the media and all the matters surrounding the important report that was issued and known colloquially as the Leveson report. Those Peers felt that it had now become inappropriate for the House to consider the matter at a late hour.

I had some discussions with the members of that little, but very forceful, delegation, who felt that they were relaying some of the views of other Members. I certainly listened very carefully. I have had discussions with the opposition Front Bench, and I am very grateful to them, as ever, for their co-operation in the usual channels. As a result, it has been agreed that the Leveson debate will not proceed today but that we will find a date for it as soon as possible early in the new year. I have already had preliminary discussions with the Opposition and I feel sure that we will be able to find a convenient date very quickly. As soon as that has been achieved, I will naturally make a statement to the House. If it is a matter that we cannot resolve before the House rises, I will ensure that all party groups and the Convenor are able to put out the message as soon as possible so that the inconvenience which has clearly been experienced by the large number of Peers wanting to speak today is perhaps brought to an early end.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, on behalf of the Opposition I thank the noble Baroness for her statement. She has been very gracious in agreeing to rearrange the business. It will not be to everybody’s convenience, but at least it will be at a more convenient time and will enable a more congenial debate. Therefore, on behalf of these Benches, I am very grateful to the Government for their swift action on this point.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Thursday 22nd March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall make a short statement about business. On the first of this month, my noble friend the Leader of House announced in the usual Written Statement that the Queen will be pleased to open a new Session of Parliament on Wednesday 9 May. As this is the first mid-Parliament spring opening for many years, I should now like to say a word or two about the end of the Session and Prorogation. My right honourable friend the Leader of the House of Commons has today announced that the other place will be considering the Finance Bill in the week of 16 April. Unlike Easter, the Finance Bill is an immovable feast which follows the Budget. While the other place is in Committee of the Whole House—the Chamber—on the Finance Bill, the two Houses cannot effectively deal with ping-pong. For that reason, I now propose to add a week to the Easter Recess. We will now return from Easter on Monday 23 April instead of on Monday 16 April.

It is my intention that our legislative business on this Session’s Bills should be concluded by the end of Thursday 26 April, or thereabouts. That may include a Bill to be introduced in this House to relax the Sunday trading laws for the period of the Olympics and Paralympics, for this summer only, of course. That will go forward only if fast-track legislation on that is agreed between the usual channels. I confirm that discussion is under way at the moment in the usual channels about whether fast-track legislation may be agreed to. In short, we will return from the Easter Recess on 23 April for the outstanding Bills and, potentially, the Olympics Sunday trading Bill. Parliament will then be prorogued in the usual way a few days before the start of the new Session.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, I have no desire to strike a discordant note at the news of your Lordships’ House having an extra week’s holiday, but I will take a moment to reflect on how we have arrived at this point.

We had an 18-month legislative programme that was extended over two years. The House was brought back for a September sitting. We had a week added to our work in October, and we had a half-term Recess cancelled last November. We have had a rather chaotic approach to legislation in the past two years. With all the pressure that has been applied to our Front Bench to conform to late sittings and early starts, it seems deeply ironic that we have ended up in a bizarre situation where the Government forgot that they had to deal with their Finance Bill before they could deal with ping-pong.

Will the noble Baroness consider taking back to the Prime Minister a request from this House for a reconsideration of the timings of the parliamentary terms? Spring to spring just does not work. We have purdah, we have Budget debates and of course we have the moveable feast of Easter. There is a disconnect. On Monday we are going to be asked to consider extending the hours in which we deliberate in Grand Committee. We are being asked to do more work yet here we are, in April, being given an extra week off. This does not strike me as a sensible way of doing business.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, this House is indeed a very hard-working House. The noble Lord said that he thought the House was going to be asked to do more work. There will be a debate on the Procedure Committee before the House on Monday, if the House agrees to a Motion later today. Noble Lords will be able to make their points at that stage. The opposition Chief Whip is aware that it is the Government’s intention only to make proposals with regard to Grand Committee that will enable the House to have more opportunity to scrutinise legislation without having the late finishes or early starts that were only tabled at the express request of the Opposition.

We had a September sitting last year. It proved unpopular. I listened to the House and therefore there will not be a September sitting this year. Of course, I always listen to the views of the House. Indeed, on Monday the House spoke with such a loud voice on the Health and Social Care Bill that the Government found that we no longer needed to consider that Bill at further stages in the normal procedure of ping-pong. My overwhelming duty is to ensure that this House sits because it has pressing matters of business and to provide the circumstances in which the House can do so. I am the first to applaud the work this House does and I know it will continue to do it to the best.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Wednesday 21st December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, it is my honour and pleasure to put the Motion that the House do now adjourn. It is an everyday matter when the House is in Session in this Chamber but, once a year, it takes on a very special significance. In moving the Motion, I join with the generously expressed remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. I would like to pay tribute to the stamina of my noble friend Lord Howe, to all of those on the opposition Front Benches and to all of those around the House who have taken part in the Committee stage of the Health and Social Care Bill. I wish my noble friend the Minister and all others a wholly restful Christmas Recess, despite those letters that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, pointed out will be written. Of course, I have already offered an early Christmas present in the forthcoming business: the fact that the Report stage of the Bill will not start in at least the first two weeks when we return.

It is customary at this moment for the usual channels, in their broadest sense, to pay tribute on behalf of the whole House to our staff, who have facilitated all the work of this House during the course of the year. It is my privilege to be the first of the four of us who will pay such compliments. The difficulties of the spring of this year are now far behind us. Those difficulties put a burden on our staff, which we all, I know, acknowledge. They managed, as always, with professionalism and patience. This is not always an easy place in which to work: our hours can be long and unpredictable and even with goodwill that can happen. I thank all the staff for their continued flexibility and commitment, which I know is recognised and appreciated by all of us.

I know that my opposite numbers in the other groups will pay tribute to some individual members of staff who have completed or who are shortly about to complete their long service to this House. I would particularly like to pay tribute to Major Mike Charlesworth, who retired in July after 16 years as our staff superintendent. Major Charlesworth joined the House after a long career in the Army, where he served in the Falklands and Bosnia. He was responsible for the day-to-day management of the attendants and housekeepers, both key services, which I know Members of the House greatly appreciate.

One of Major Charlesworth’s first jobs on arriving in the House was to arrange for all Members to be decanted—we are now used to being decanted, are we not?—from the Principal Floor, West Front, in order to install computer cabling, in which we led the way in Parliament, in the disused chimney ducts. Yes, that is where they are hiding. The problem was that that was swiftly followed by a huge rain of soot along the corridor and so his next job was to arrange the clean-up. Major Charlesworth was a key figure in the arrangements for State Opening and state visits. He assisted with the lying in state of the late Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother, in 2002, when about 200,000 members of the public came to pay their respects around the clock.

In his spare time, Major Charlesworth was a keen singer in the London Welsh Male Voice Choir, with whom he appeared on “Blue Peter”, earning a much-coveted Blue Peter badge. We hope that he will have time to pursue his interest in retirement. I am sure that all Members of the House will wish to join me in wishing him a long and happy retirement.

Briefly, I would also like to take this opportunity to thank Sir Stephen Laws, who retires next month as first parliamentary counsel. Although not personally known to many Members of this House, his and his colleagues’ work is very familiar to us all. In our scrutiny we often criticise legislation as being badly drafted, when, as ever, what we really mean is that it is badly formulated by the politicians. The error is rarely, if ever, that of the draftsman. Sir Stephen has provided a first-class service to a number of Governments over the years and we wish him the very best in his retirement—the Leader and I in particular because he is our Permanent Secretary.

All that remains is for me to invite my opposite numbers around the House to make their contributions, after which I will formally adjourn the House.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, it is always difficult following the Government's Chief Whip, but I thank her for her courtesy and generosity of spirit on the closing day of our proceedings this year. I have a number of people to thank. I will start with the staff of the House of Lords in general, who all work incredibly hard to support us and make sure that our deliberations, however long or short, are painless in terms of what goes on behind the scenes. I also pay tribute to my opposite number, the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, for the way in which she and her office have worked tirelessly over the past year to ensure that our business is conducted in an orderly fashion and manner. Though we might not always agree, I am sure that we agree on one thing: namely, that this House is extraordinarily important, and that the way in which it works is extraordinarily important, too. The usual channels are working well and to an improved standard. That is cause for great congratulation.

I also thank Hansard staff who have tirelessly noted and commented on all our observations on government legislation and beyond. They are here at all hours and are sometimes much overlooked when we conduct our deliberations. The clerks, as ever, are tireless and are there to give us advice and good and wise counsel. They do their job splendidly. I also join the noble Baroness in thanking Sir Stephen Laws. When we were in government we were endlessly reliant on Sir Stephen for good advice and wise drafting. As the noble Baroness observed, it is not often that draftsmen are at fault; it is more often politicians. We would all agree on that.

There is one matter that I should clear up before I pay my tributes: namely, my footwear. There has been a lot of comment on it today. I got up under the mistaken impression that it was national festive footwear day. I apologise, but it is true that I am red from head to toe—and it is in celebration of the fact that we are in the festive season.

I am here as the representative of the Official Opposition to give thanks not just to all the staff of the House—the caterers, the cleaners, the housekeepers and everybody else—but in particular to some of those who are retiring. I pay particular tribute this afternoon to Senior Attendant Bob Jones. We made some inquiries about Mr Jones and found them rather difficult. I was often told that the things which people might like to say about Mr Jones were not repeatable in your Lordships’ Chamber. However, there are one or two salient facts. Bob joined the House in October 1994 after a full career in the Royal Navy. What is not known is whether he served under Admiral West; I am still inviting comment on that.

What is absolutely clear from my observations is that, wherever he has been, Bob Jones has come back with a story to tell—something like the Uncle Albert character in “Only Fools and Horses”. A number of years ago, Black Rod's department decided to have an awayday. I cannot understand why anybody would want a day away from this place, but they did. They chose HMS “Belfast”, apparently because of its age. It was taken out of service a very long time ago, but Bob Jones took great delight in pointing out things on the ship because it was the first ship on which he had served. Of course, now it is Bob who is being taken out of active service.

I am told by other attendants that they have one fear for Bob: namely, that his wife Carol, who is a paragon and incredibly supportive, will become a fishing widow. I am sure that the House would like to record its concern on this matter, and if it were available to me, I would be putting a Motion down because I think that is quite wrong. However, I think everybody will join me in wishing Bob well in his retirement. I certainly enjoyed my discussions with Mr Jones on the odd occasion on my way into the Chamber. He is a very entertaining fellow, and I recommend him to anybody who needs an after-dinner speaker.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Wednesday 14th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I know that this is becoming an aficionado’s debate, and obviously we have to make sure that we understand what is going on.

The noble Lord, Lord Best, made claims about what he considered to be consequential, and I know that he did so in good faith. However, it is not for the noble Lord, Lord Best, to tell the Government what the Government believe is consequential. As a matter of fact, Amendment 17A is not consequential. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, might find that I am about to be helpful, so she might wish to hesitate for just one moment. At least, the noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, the Opposition Chief Whip, might find that I am about to be a little more helpful.

Clearly this is not a consequential amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Best, may want to accept it as such, but it is not procedurally. The Government’s view, if I can make it clear, is that the amendment is not consequential. We do not accept it as being consequential, and will not do so when these matters are debated in another place.

However, the Government have also seen the result earlier on. It is not the Government’s intention to try to unpick some of the debate that occurred earlier. During that debate, at no time did the Minister accept that Amendment 17A was consequential. The position is clearly that when the matter was debated earlier on, other noble Lords felt that if the matter were put to a vote, they might wish to vote along the same basis, but that did not happen.

I am sure it will be to the confusion of noble Lords opposite, but the position, quite simply, is that the Government will not call against Amendment 17A when it is put. I hope that is helpful. The important thing is on the record; I make it clear that the Government will not accept this in another place. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, finds that useful.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, I was waiting for those words, and that is why I had not made a procedural intervention. Having now heard what the noble Baroness has said, I will be content, for the orderly process of business, if the Government accept this. Of course, that is on the understanding that what happens in another place is what happens in another place. No doubt these things will be revisited upon us, as they usually are.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, for the avoidance of doubt, as I say, the Government do not accept the amendment. I will certainly ask my colleagues behind me—including the Minister, who must be wondering what on earth this is all about—that when the Question is put, no person on the coalition Benches calls against it.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Thursday 15th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I am disappointed that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, did not seek to alert me to the information that he had, nor has he given any information to justify what he has just said. No doubt whoever said this to him did so in good faith, but they are wrong. The basis upon which the House made its decision yesterday stands.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, I apologise for this intervention, which is, I confess, rather opportunistic. However, I have been given a copy of our forward business. I hate to say this but it lists Grand Committee on the Welfare Reform Bill as being held in the Moses Room. I assume and hope that this is a typographical hangover from an earlier iteration of the forward business. However, the House deserves to know, on the record, that we will not be using the Moses Room for Grand Committee on the Welfare Reform Bill. That seemed to be a clear undertaking that was given to the House yesterday.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, for pointing out what is clearly a typographical error. If that is the source of information to which the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, referred, it is a pity that he did not make that clear. He may have other sources of information. The assurance that I gave stands. I am not accustomed to having the veracity of my statements challenged, which is clearly what is happening. This is opportunistic. May we please proceed to the business in hand?

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Wednesday 14th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, this is a very grave situation. It is unusual for the usual channels not to be able to agree on a way forward in dealing with legislation. Colleagues in this House will know that I have a reputation for being very open in my negotiations and that I am always ready to conduct those negotiations in a friendly and charitable way. It is a role that I perform not just for my own party but with an eye on and a mind towards the whole House. I am frequently lobbied by others outside our grouping to approach these matters in that way.

I am deeply concerned about this Motion for several reasons. I see it as a first step towards a fully regulated House. I do not think anybody wants that; we certainly do not and I am sure most noble Lords do not want it either. I have tried to offer options on days in Committee. It is also an open secret that we were prepared to discuss splitting the Committee sessions of the Bill between Grand Committee and the Floor of your Lordships’ House. I thought we were making steady progress towards that objective. So far this Session we have agreed to commit eight Bills to Grand Committee and we were prepared to negotiate on a further two. That is the largest number since 2007-08.

I am seriously concerned about the ability of all noble Lords to participate in the proceedings on this Bill. The noble Baroness has rightly drawn attention to the shortcomings of the Moses Room. Those shortcomings are just as apparent on the Committee Corridor. Several colleagues have told me in clear terms that the rooms upstairs are not much better and that a lot of furniture will need to be moved to facilitate those who have difficulty with mobility and to enable lobby groups and those who are interested in the Bill to participate and observe proceedings.

We should take the Motion away and continue negotiations. There is no rush. In my view the Bill needs around 68 to 70 hours of Committee time. That is how long it had at the other end and that is how long we should spend on giving it fair consideration in your Lordships’ House. If that is to be the case, it would occupy around 15 or 16 sessions in Grand Committee. My last offer on this was to suggest that the Bill be considered on the Floor of the Chamber for some eight days and in Grand Committee for the remainder, to deal with those technical and difficult issues that are tucked away in schedules at the back of the Bill.

The Government have got themselves into a muddle with their legislative programme. I have said that at the Dispatch Box before and I repeat it today. This is a two-year Session at the beginning of a Parliament, and part of a five-year fixed-term Parliament. We have had fewer Recess days than previously; our Recess time has been cut to facilitate the Government’s programme. We are working longer parliamentary days: 70 days have gone beyond 10 pm and in many instances well beyond 10 pm. Bills have been delayed. We have only just received the health Bill for our consideration. There is great concern. This is a highly controversial piece of legislation; let nobody doubt that. The Bill deserves to be dealt with on the Floor of the House. I make my offer again to the government Chief Whip. I am prepared to negotiate; is she?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I have been open to negotiation and received just the word “no”. I welcomed the offer of the Opposition to engage in discussions about splitting the Bill between the Chamber and Grand Committee. However, the negotiation was one in which the Opposition said no to the Government. The offer of four days on the Floor of the House and as many as the House wished to spend in Grand Committee was turned down. This has to be balanced against the needs of other Bills, which will also attract great attention around the House from people who feel passionately about and have great expertise in all the issues.

In response, I shall refer to one or two of the points that the noble Lord raised, and I shall try to do so fairly briefly. This is not a step towards regulation—just the reverse. This is the House regulating itself. It is self-regulation to avoid full regulation. It is not the case that Grand Committee has been used effectively in the past few years. I note the careful way in which the opposition Chief Whip referred to a number of Bills. The numbers of Bills in Grand Committee in recent years are as follows. In 2007-08 there were 10 in Committee of the Whole House and 12 in Grand Committee. In 2008-09 there were nine in Committee of the Whole House and six in Grand Committee—that is 40 per cent. In the following years the figures were 36 per cent and 33 per cent of Bills in Grand Committee. We are at an all-time low in agreements from the Opposition to put Bills into Grand Committee.

I would have liked to have been in a position where we did not have to sit in the first week of October during the Conservative Party conference. We debated this in June, when I made it clear that the failure to put another Bill into Grand Committee would mean that this House would have to sit for longer in order to give proper consideration to Bills. On that day the Leader of the Opposition said:

“One of the problems, not only on my Benches but throughout the House as a whole, is that people do not understand yet that the Grand Committee is not a second-rate Chamber”.

She is absolutely right. She continued:

“It is a Chamber where we can deliberate and assess Bills and scrutinise them just as we can in this Chamber”.

Again, she is right. She continued:

“All around the House we have to be more aware of the ability of this House to better use the Grand Committee”.

She went on to say:

“I know that next week my noble friend the Chief Whip will wish to enter into further conversation with the government Chief Whip to see how we can secure other Bills in a Grand Committee of this House”. —[Official Report, 16/6/11, col. 1031.]

We had those discussions but the result was that the Opposition refused to allow the Government to split the Bill in such a way that there could be proper consideration on the Floor of the House and yet also consideration of other matters in Grand Committee, thereby allowing other Bills to have their time in the Chamber. I have done all I can to come to an agreement with the Opposition, but the response has been to turn down the Government’s offer of time.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Wednesday 7th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, we do not have points of order in this House, but it may be helpful if I remind the House that the dates for such matters are agreed in the usual channels, and these were readily agreed by both the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and the opposition Chief Whip, the noble Lord, Lord Bassam. Of course, as ever, I can improve that—as I see that there seems to be some unusual reaction opposite, including from the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton. I suggest that these matters continue to be discussed in the usual channels.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, the Chief Whip has made the correct point in concluding her remarks that we should continue discussions in the usual channels. I rather confess to being the junior partner in these discussions but clearly we need to be flexible. I am more than prepared to be part of a flexible discussion when it comes to discussing days for parliamentary business to be conducted in your Lordships’ House.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

Can I just press the noble Baroness the Chief Whip a little further? When we were in discussions a figure was mentioned. I think it might be helpful, and for the benefit of the House, if that figure was put on the record.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

I am most happy to do so. In the ordinary manner of things, we had planned for four days on Report, which is the usual length. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, is shaking his head—we accepted that that would not be appropriate, and there will be five and a half days provided on Report.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Tuesday 19th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, perhaps I may say that today’s list has a target set at Amendment 170CD—

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, might I intervene? It is customary, if one wishes to ask general questions, to do so on the Motion that House do now go into Committee. Last week, Back-Benchers involved in this Bill showed a willingness to move on and to debate the Bill, and not to argue about how it should be arrived at by particular times. Announcements were made. Might I suggest that if the Chief Whip of the Opposition has anything to say, he has the courtesy to have discussions with me first outside the Chamber? If he wishes to proceed now, of course that is his right. My noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding was supposed to be moving an amendment. I remind the House that it is the normal courtesy to give notice that one wishes to say something on going into Committee. The noble Lord decided not to do so. If he has changed his mind and wants to do it in a different way, it would be helpful to the House if it knew what procedure was to be followed.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, I am normally very courteous in your Lordships’ House and I do not wish to trespass on its time. I am more than happy to have discussions outside the Chamber—that would be preferable—but I draw to the attention of the House that the Government have set a target of 29 amendments. The House is due to rise at 10 o’clock this evening and, with it sitting again at 10 o’clock tomorrow morning, your Lordships will wish to know that that permits, on my calculation, only 12 minutes per group of amendments, and some of the groups contain as many as 40 amendments. We are, of course, more than ready to try to make progress on the Bill. It is a serious Bill containing serious matters and the House needs to give all the issues serious and proper consideration. I hope that the House will support that approach— that is how we usually proceed—but, if we cannot reach that target by 10 o’clock this evening, I hope that we will adjourn at 10 o’clock because noble Lords need to come back tomorrow refreshed to carry on with urgent and proper business.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

I am grateful to the noble Lord the Opposition Chief Whip for saying that the Opposition are keen to make progress. We on this side of the House are also keen to make progress. These are preliminary discussions and we will certainly listen to all the debates as they proceed because all Members who have amendments down consider them to be important. The Back-Benchers said again and again last week that they want to get on with scrutiny of the Bill. Let my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding have his moment to do just that.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Thursday 14th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, my deputy and I are joined at the hip, like twins. In this occasion, the Gemini were slightly apart, and I had the advantage of being able to have a further conversation with the opposition Chief Whip as well as briefly with the Leader of the Opposition and their spokesman on these matters. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, is spokesman not only on this Bill but also on the Welfare Reform Bill, which as he has just this moment said is very important. We have perhaps found a new way forward, which needs further examination but would provide for the inclusion of the Localism Bill next week. It would also meet some of the concerns expressed around the House that, having started the Welfare Reform Bill Second Reading, we would do the Committee stage as soon as we got back in September.

The discussions now afoot would mean that we would do whatever we may within about the 20 minutes or so remaining tonight on the first amendment on the Localism Bill. However, we would expect to continue discussions. The proposal is around the idea that Monday would go ahead as anticipated, with the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill followed by the Finance Bill, but on Tuesday it may well be that instead of the Welfare Reform Bill Second Reading, we could then have a full day on the Localism Bill and on Wednesday, as already scheduled, start the day on the police Bill Third Reading but then move into the Localism Bill, with a fair expectation of being able to conclude that business.

People say that the House of Lords stays the same over centuries, but things can happen in seconds here by agreement. That is one of the interesting things of this place, where there is self-regulation. I know that there is continuing good will on these matters. I think that this is the time when Chief Whips sit down and invite the Convenor and others to come to a meeting to discuss what the impact might be on their Benches.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, as ever, my door is open for discussions and if there is some small progress this evening and we can carry on discussing next week’s business, that would be very helpful.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

I did not stand up while anybody else was talking. I do not carry out that kind of breach of conventions. I am trying to assist the House by pointing out that the Government have tried to schedule business for the benefit of the Opposition and for the whole House. Clearly, we are always prepared to have discussions. We have done little else over the past week. Those discussions can continue but it is a matter of this House that they do not continue on the Floor. Of course, the Motion may be now put that we do resume Report stage. I invite noble Lords to agree to that, pending that there can then be discussions elsewhere. I understand, by the look of it, that the noble Lord the Opposition Chief Whip will be happy to reply to that.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, I take that, in the end, as a very positive intervention by the noble Baroness the Government Chief Whip. I am more than happy to have some discussion off the Floor of the Chamber because it is pushing it to start a day as late as this. The noble Baroness is quite right to remind the House that we certainly signed up to try and complete Report in four days. I do not think that anybody expected the European considerations to go on for as long as they did. We tried to play our part in keeping them as short as we possibly could, but it is unreasonable to expect the House to debate serious issues such as universal jurisdiction, or issues that are a passionate concern for some, such as licensing, and the rest. As it happens, we have tabled only four or five groups of amendments for this stage of the Bill. We have tried to keep our opposition to the Bill within reasonable bounds and have done so. We have kept to our side of the bargain but, particularly on a Wednesday—and with a Thursday sitting starting at 11 am and a Friday sitting at 10 am—it is not right to keep the House beyond reasonable hours.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

Well, there you are—that is what I really want to do. One minute’s break between today and tomorrow would give us enough time for Prayers. My Lords, in fact it will be 11 pm. We would like to make further progress on an amendment or two and conclude as close to 11 pm as possible. The agreement is that tomorrow morning after Questions we will start on the Report stage of the police Bill. We will continue until we have concluded Report and then go back to consideration of the published business, which is the Committee stage of the Localism Bill.

This has an implication for consideration of matters at Third Reading. The Minister has already made it clear that she is prepared to consider matters at Third Reading and I know that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has already signalled that he has at least one serious matter that he wishes to consider. It is therefore important that we maintain our normal tradition of having the usual intervals between stages. That can be achieved by the Government rearranging their business next week so that the Third Reading of this Bill will be taken on Wednesday instead of Tuesday—so we have the usual intervals—then after the Third Reading of this Bill on Wednesday we would continue in Committee on the Localism Bill.

I know that the usual channels will continue to have discussions tomorrow afternoon, when we are able to see the progress of business, to work for the best of the House.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

Briefly, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, for the way that she has approached this and for her gracious manner in putting something before the House which I am sure the whole House will feel able to support.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Thursday 16th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, we have reached 30 minutes, but I know that that Question was one in which many noble Lords wished to take part.

I should like to make a Statement on two matters. First, it may be for the convenience of the House to know that the usual channels have agreed that the speakers’ list for the debate on House of Lords reform next Tuesday and Wednesday will close at 6 pm on Monday evening, which is a little earlier than usual. In addition, the House will meet early on Wednesday, at 11 o’clock, in order to help accommodate the number of speakers currently on the list. However, Oral Questions on Wednesday will be taken at the usual time of 3 o’clock. We will start the day by resuming the debate, then break for Oral Questions, and return to the debate afterwards.

Perhaps it would be helpful if I remind noble Lords that paragraph 4.32 of the Companion provides that Members speaking in a debate should be present for the opening speeches and the winding speeches at the very end, as well as for the greater part of the debate. That does mean, of course, on both days.

I turn now to the Recess. I hear calls of “Hear, hear”, but we shall see how long that lasts. When I announced the long-term Recess dates on 21 October last year, I made it clear at that stage that the dates were subject to the progress of business. We have not made as much progress as is necessary, and I know that noble Lords around the House are well aware of that. I am now in a position to inform the House that we will return one week earlier in October. The House will return from the Summer Recess on Monday 3 October, not on Monday 10 October. That is a limited adjustment and I look to all sides of the House to achieve reasonable progress both before and after the summer to enable us to hold to the other dates already announced. Subject to the progress of business, we will still rise for the Summer Recess at the end of business on Wednesday, 20 July.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the two Statements she has made, in particular the first one, which has been agreed through the usual channels and will, I think, be convenient to your Lordships’ House. I am grateful to her for confirming the arrangements.

I also thank the noble Baroness for telling the House about the Government’s plan to bring noble Lords back early for an additional week during the Conservative Party conference, which no doubt will be a relief to many, to deal with what I consider to be a chaotic logjam of government Bills. This is almost entirely without precedent. When we were in Government, it is true that we brought in September sittings, but that was done by agreement across the parties. Indeed, when we introduced the change back in 2002, we tabled a Motion on the matter for the House to discuss and determine. We have not been consulted about this and there is no Motion for the House to debate. When I advised Labour Members yesterday evening of the likely announcement, there was genuine anger. It disrupts long-planned appointments and arrangements, and treats the House with contempt. It says that the House is the plaything of the Government—a Government who have lost control of their legislative programme.

The truth is—in saying this I apportion no blame to the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay—that the Government are trying to force through a programme that is overlong, overprogrammed and overblown. In short, it is too long and they know it, and the House and the process of scrutiny are the sufferers. This is a crisis of timetabling, caused not by your Lordships’ rightful desire to scrutinise Bills but by political mismanagement, emanating from No. 10. This House has already had the farce of badly drafted Bills, such as the Public Bodies Bill, and still to come are the Armed Forces Bill, the Scotland Bill and the Office for Budget Responsibility Bill. We have been waiting for a health Bill that was promised to the House in May but will not be here until October or November at the earliest. We also have such complex Bills as the Welfare Reform Bill and the Protection of Freedoms Bill to come.

What assurances can the House have that, even with this extra week, we will complete our work without further incursions into Recess dates, longer nights and earlier starts? I also ask the noble Baroness to reconfirm all existing Recess dates, including those in February, and to do so with certainty. Will she also tell the House when it is intended that we shall have another Queen’s Speech, and when this Session—the longest any of us can remember—will end? How many more Bills do the Government expect to force through this House before the Session concludes? At my last count, we still had 16 in progress and another 12 or 13 to come, and had done only 16 so far. Just how many more Bills do the Government expect to bring?

May I perhaps give the Government a little advice before they embark on their next political programme? Will they ensure that, next time around, they have coherent, well worked-out Bills, and do not have more Bills in their programme than both Houses of Parliament can realistically manage and effectively scrutinise?

This a programme of legislation that has been poorly thought through, badly managed from the centre and forced on an increasingly reluctant Parliament in a timeframe that is wholly unrealistic. I urge the Government to think again about their programme, and to consult the House properly about their timetable and what they put in for the rest of the Session.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

Well, my Lords, as my dear old Aunt Rose would say, the noble Lord has a bit of a brass neck. However, I will of course address each of those points. Perhaps noble Lords should not read everything on politicshome.com before they bring information to the House. For example, the noble Lord referred to my having apparently announced the dates of the February half-term. The noble Lord will know that I never have. I know that politicshome.com has said so and that it has been tweeted, but it has never been the case in this House. I do not refer to any Recess dates after we return in January; I never have. Like the noble Lord, I do not refer to the date of the end of the Session. That is not something that happens; it is up to noble Lords to make their own calculations. When we know the progress of business, we will make a Statement, as the noble Lord did when the Labour Party was in government.

This is a self-regulating House, with the implication that scrutiny of legislation cannot be curtailed except by the House itself. That is only right; it is one of the aspects of our work of which we have every reason to be proud. The corollary is that when the House chooses to dwell on a particular Bill, as it did on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill—on which we spent 17 days in Committee, which is more than double the usual maximum for the largest Bills—more time must then be found elsewhere if the scrutiny of the other Bills in a Government’s legislative programme is not to suffer as a consequence.

I should also make it clear that we have been used, over the past decade, to agreements by the usual channels to take a good number of the Committee stages of Bills in Grand Committee, off the Floor of the House. That kind of agreement has not been achievable this Session. This Session will have the lowest percentage of Bills in Grand Committee for nearly 10 years—since the Session of 2001-02. I know that because I was on the other side taking part in it all. As a result, pressure for time on the Floor of the House is acute and something has to give.

The Opposition Chief Whip will recall that the Opposition refused to put into Grand Committee a Bill that was eminently suitable for that place. I refer to the Postal Services Bill on which the Opposition spokesperson performed a very valuable role. The noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, steered the Opposition through that Bill with great skill and Labour Party Back-Benchers also acted with great skill and scrutinised it carefully. But it was not an appropriate Bill for the Floor of the House. The Opposition insisted that it should take time on the Floor away from other Bills.

There was consultation about business. Over the past five weeks, there has been consultation with the Opposition Chief Whip to seek certainty about how the Government could deliver their business without extending the sitting period and taking away a week from the summer Session. It is not normal process in this House to consult formally more widely, but I made sure that soundings were taken around the House. It was made very clear to me that, while noble Lords would not wish to extend the period beyond July, for some reason that I find quite difficult to understand, noble Lords on all sides of the House felt that it was quite appropriate for this place to be sitting during the Conservative Party conference, when my colleagues might wish to be elsewhere. That is indeed the final decision that was taken. The decision is not taken lightly. It is one to deal with ordinary business in an ordinary way. Scrutiny in this House, when it is done well, is a model for the world to follow.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Wednesday 11th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, this may be an appropriate moment for me to raise an important point. The Committee has just voted against the principle of elected police and crime commissioners, which is a key pillar of the Bill. From our perspective, everything that flows from that is part of that important principle. It makes a mockery of the discussion and debate on this part of the Bill if we continue as though this has not happened. It is our view on this side of the Committee that it would be prudent to adjourn so that the Government and Members of the Committee can reflect on what has happened to the Bill so that we can proceed in a sensible and orderly way. Having ripped the guts out of a piece of legislation, I cannot see how we can intelligently proceed as though nothing has happened.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the process is clear. The House of Lords tonight made a decision to remove elected commissioners. That does not prevent the House of Lords doing its normal duty of properly scrutinising this legislation. The Opposition Chief Whip seeks to prevent the House of Lords scrutinising other parts of the Bill tonight. In asking the Committee to suspend proceedings, he is asking it to do just that.

The decision that was taken by the Committee a short while ago means that consequential amendments have not yet been agreed to, Amendment 9 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, being one. The noble Baroness is not in her seat but others are present who may move it. The Committee has decided that it does not wish to discuss piloting schemes because it has removed the elected commissioners from the Bill, but it has left in place police authorities with a different system of operating, so it is in order for the Committee to proceed in the normal way—that is, to consider accepting the consequential amendments to Amendment 1 and then to consider the other amendments beginning with Amendment 10. The noble Lord who is on the Woolsack will guide the Committee on which amendments may be further pre-empted.

I know that every Member of this Committee who voted to defeat the Government in the Division will have considered very carefully all the consequences of what they were doing before they took that action. Therefore, I am sure that they would not wish to suspend the Committee and deny it any further opportunity to consider amendments. I think it is appropriate that we should proceed. If the Committee has decided that it does not wish to do its job of scrutiny, that would, of course, be a different matter.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, having heard what the Chief Whip has said, I accept, of course, that we should proceed to consider the important parts of the Bill. I will not move that the Committee should adjourn, but the Government need to come back to the Dispatch Box, if not today then certainly when the Bill goes into the second day in Committee, to explain exactly how they intend to deal with this issue because the Committee has made its voice very clear on this matter. I would have thought that a period of mature reflection on the implications of the previous amendment being passed would greatly benefit our further consideration of the Bill.

The noble Baroness is right to say that we should deal with consequential amendments. My advice to the Committee would be rather different from her own, but we are the Opposition and the noble Baroness represents the Government.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, perhaps I can help the noble Lord further. This Government, like any other, would wish to engage in discussions with all those who are interested in the Bill between Committee and further stages. That is the normal way of doing things. However, the difficulty is that the Committee has taken a decision that it does not wish to consider all these matters again until another place has had the opportunity to consider them. That does not, of course, stop discussions with those who moved the initial amendment and those who supported it. That is the normal way we proceed; it is just that the Committee has prevented us doing it on the Floor of this Chamber. Although the fact that Amendment 1 was carried must necessarily still the voices of those who would have liked to speak to Amendments 2, 3, 4 and so on, there is much else of importance in the Bill.

I am grateful to the noble Lord for agreeing that it is right for this House to do its job—a job it does with some distinction. The results of that do not always bring the Government Chief Whip joy but we will all work together, now and in the future, to work our way through this legislation. The Deputy Chairman has called Amendment 9. It might be for the benefit of those who were keen that Amendment 1 should be carried that Amendment 9 should be put to the Committee so that it can be agreed as a consequential amendment.

Identity Documents Bill

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Tuesday 21st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, I should like to clarify that on this side of the House we are entirely in agreement with what the noble Baroness has put before your Lordships. It is a sensible way to proceed.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I understand that there are two Motions, the first of which is that further consideration on Motion A should be postponed. I beg to move.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Tuesday 23rd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, immediately after the debate on the second group of amendments on the Public Bodies Bill, my noble friend Lady Neville-Jones will repeat a Statement on controlling migration.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, in connection with the business of the day announcement which the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, has just made on the Statement on immigration, I bring to the attention of the House what we believe to be a serious matter in relation to the Savings Accounts and Health in Pregnancy Grant Bill and the role of your Lordships’ House as a revising Chamber. We understand that an announcement is to be made shortly on this Bill, setting out that the Commons has passed the Bill and presenting it for its First Reading here in your Lordships’ House. The Companion makes clear that the First Reading of a Bill is agreed without dissent or debate, and I fully intend to stand by that provision if, as we expect, the Bill is presented for First Reading. However, we understand that the Speaker in another place has declared that the Bill is a money Bill and is therefore covered by Commons financial privilege. The net effect of this is that this House will be unable to consider and debate the Bill and propose any amendments to it in its normal role as a revising Chamber.

The three provisions that the Bill seeks to modify were fully and properly considered in primary legislation in both Houses of Parliament, and we consider it a constitutional outrage for this House to be so prevented from considering the subsequent Bill, which will cut these payments now. If such a Bill is declared a money Bill then any such legislation can be designated in this way, again thereby attacking the role of this House as a revising Chamber and an important part of the checks and balances of our constitutional arrangements. In seeking to bring this important matter to the attention of the House we give notice that we will oppose this Bill at Second Reading and its declaration as a money Bill. Again, I believe that the Government are not conducting legislation in an entirely proper way.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I hope the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, will consider and reflect carefully on the latter part of his choice of words.

I remind the House of the guidance in the Companion. Paragraph 8.196 states:

“A money bill is a bill endorsed with a signed certificate of the Speaker of the House of Commons that it is a money bill because in the Speaker’s opinion it contains only provisions dealing with national, but not local, taxation, public money or loans or their management. The certificate of the Speaker is conclusive for all purposes”.

In addition, the Companion is clear that criticism of rulings of the Commons Speaker is out of order. Paragraph 4.44 states:

“Criticism of proceedings in the House of Commons or of Commons Speaker’s rulings is out of order, but criticism may be made of the institutional structure of Parliament or the role and function of the House of Commons”.

That debate is better had at Second Reading within that context.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, I am sure that that is entirely right. We will of course abide by those provisions and raise these matters at Second Reading, but, I repeat, all three of these issues were properly and fully considered by this House at all stages of those pieces of legislation. That is a record of which we should be proud.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Monday 15th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Grocott has made an eminently sensible suggestion and, as Chief Whip on this side, I am more than happy to enter into discussion on his sensible proposal.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I am intrigued by the estimate of the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, on the length of business for today and tomorrow. I know that the more than 20 Members who have signed up to speak in tomorrow’s debate consider the future of the membership of this House to be a very serious matter, as I do, and are therefore very concerned that they should not be disrupted.

I am also intrigued that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, refers to the fact that Second Reading is not expected to start today until six o’clock or later. No doubt, the Opposition have a greater idea about how long their debate on the Motion of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, will persist. I do not know. It is not time limited. Clearly, if it is a straightforward matter to resolve, it should take markedly shorter than that.

It is the expectation of this House that Second Readings where there are about 50 speakers commonly are scheduled for one day only. The former Captain of the Gentlemen-at-Arms, the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, was very much aware of that. He was still Captain of the Gentlemen-at-Arms when I became Opposition Chief Whip, and we worked closely together on that basis: that the normal procedures should be upheld. I am extremely keen that normal procedures continue and that this House has the opportunity properly to consider all business. That also involves the Government being able to take part in discussions whereby the normal procedures continue, and we have obviously been involved in doing just that on a constructive basis.

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, refers to the fact that it is unusual for Statements to be deferred. That is not quite true, but I know that we can trade statistics between each other. A couple of weeks ago, the Opposition themselves asked that a Statement should be deferred by a day—very constructively—because it was not time-limited, and I had every expectation that they might wish to do the same on this occasion. The G20 debate would be as substantive and important to this House tomorrow as it is today. Clearly, the Opposition have decided to take a different view and wish to delay the start of the Second Reading debate today.

As I mentioned at the beginning, I am very much open to discussions through the usual channels. I heard what the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, said. I am willing to take up discussions across the whole range of timing today, but it is the normal procedure that where we have a speakers list as it was on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and at the weekend, there should be one day for Second Reading. I should remind the House that it is my duty and that of the usual channels to organise the business of the House on behalf of all Back-Bench interests. That means providing certainty as to timing in advance, so that all noble Lords may make a disposition of their outside work and other commitments to be here. Therefore, when a request is made at a late stage today, it would clearly be improper of me to agree that the Second Reading should somehow be changed when others have already made the commitment to be here today to take part in and conclude Second Reading.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, I thought I heard the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, suggest that we may have discussions, and I hope that they can be constructive, but I think that it goes broader than just discussing the issue of the Statements. I understand entirely what the noble Baroness is saying, and I share her concern to stick to first principles in the organisation of business, but events overtake circumstances and we need some flexibility. It is flexibility that the House is seeking here, and I hope that we can proceed on that basis.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Bassam of Brighton and Baroness Anelay of St Johns

Wednesday 20th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Sassoon will now repeat a Statement on the comprehensive spending review 2010 that was made earlier today in the other place. It may be helpful if I remind the House of the guidance in the Companion:

“Ministerial statements are made for the information of the House, and although brief comments and questions from all quarters of the House are allowed, statements should not be made the occasion for an immediate debate”.

The Companion goes on to make clear that:

“If a debate upon a statement is desired, a notice should be tabled for a later date”.

A debate on the spending review has been agreed between the usual channels and will be on Monday 1 November. That debate has already been published in Forthcoming Business today and a list of speakers opened this morning. However, the usual channels have been discussing whether there is a case today to extend the 20-minute period available for Back-Bench questions and answers, as has happened in exceptional circumstances in the past. In view of the length of today’s Statement, the usual channels have agreed that we should give an extra 10 minutes for Back-Bench questions and answers.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Chief Whip for her statement, which I welcome. Yesterday’s debate on the strategic defence and security review showed that there is very strong feeling in this House that the time allowed for Back-Benchers to debate such vital issues is not sufficient; that is why we asked for extra time. In the past few days, many Members on all sides of the House have indicated, if anything, stronger feelings about the time which had been proposed for today’s Statement on the CSR, which, by the Government’s own account, is enormously important for our economy and our whole country. A reasonable offer has been made and we accept it, but ultimately the offer is not sufficient. Many Members across the House seek a longer period in which to discuss urgent matters such as those before us today.

We recognise that time has been allocated for a fuller debate, which we also welcome. However, that is not until next month. This matter pinpoints an issue that many Members have raised with us—that this House is currently poorly provided with the means by which we can immediately consider important issues. We have provision for topical Questions and for Private Notice Questions, but, because of this unsatisfied need for a means by which immediate issues can be discussed, we believe that this is an appropriate issue for the Leader’s Group on working practices to give greater consideration to. We will accordingly write to the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, who chairs the group, proposing that it does exactly that.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his support for the fact that discussion on the Statement should be extended, as was agreed by the usual channels. On very rare occasions the time limit for Back-Bench questions and comments on Statements has been extended by 10 minutes, most recently on the constitutional renewal Statement last June. Although there is always pressure on time in this House because noble Lords take their duties very seriously on all matters of business, it is by no means the case that Statements have always been extended over the past 13 years. For example, when the White Paper on House of Lords reform was published in July 2008, there was no extension of time; nor was that done in October 2008 or January 2009, when a succession of Statements were made by the previous Government in response to the turmoil in the financial markets and the banking sector. However, that is not to undermine the fact that this House always has the right to make its representations with regard to the tabling of business through the usual channels and, on occasion, through other means.

I note in particular two points that the noble Lord has just made. First, he claims that the debate will not take place until next month. I gently remind him that it is a matter of merely 10 days. In that period the expectation is that Peers will have the opportunity to look at further developments arising from today, such as further Statements that may appear from other departments. Therefore, all Members of the House will have a greater opportunity to make an impact on that debate. It is, of course, our responsibility as the usual channels to act in the best interests of all Members and we work together very closely to achieve exactly that.

With regard to the statement by the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, that extra time was not granted yesterday, as far as I am aware no request was made in respect of yesterday’s Statement. However, I am pleased that we have achieved agreement on today’s.