Grassroots Sporting Fixtures and Facilities

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Monday 11th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

As the noble Baroness knows, my colleagues within the department are constantly in conversation with other parts of the sport and leisure sector. We announced a £100 million support package for local authority leisure centres and continue to work on plans in that area.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, competitive sport below the elite level faces continued disruption due to the current lockdown, so given the evidence that other noble Lords have referred to—that earlier lockdowns led to a falling off of participation in sports—what plans have the Government got to develop a national sports recovery plan? Will the Minister commit to ensuring early consultation with all the relevant sports organisations in developing a recovery plan, so that we can get our nation playing again? Will the Government look at financial support, further to the winter survival package which was announced prior to Christmas, covering sports affected by the ban on spectators?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I can only agree with the noble Lord about the importance of keeping our nation active and those involved in sport having a chance to continue to do so. That is why we have kept those restricted options open, as I referred to already, on public land, which has not been the case in some other areas. Obviously, there are initiatives such as Join the Movement from Sport England. I reassure the noble Lord that we are in constant consultation with the key governing bodies about the future of sport and the funding required.

Gambling and Lotteries

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Monday 14th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating this important Statement. Before turning to the detail, I note that it is becoming increasingly common for there to be a significant gap between the Commons Statements and our repeat of them. This is regrettable; I hope it will be addressed as we move into the new year.

The launch of this call for evidence on the effectiveness of gambling legislation is a welcome step, even if it has come much later than we on the Opposition Benches would have liked. As the Secretary of State said, advances in technology and shifts in how we live on a day-to-day basis mean that current regulation reflects a very different reality to the one we now live in. This consultation exercise represents a significant first step in recognising and responding to this challenge.

While high street betting shops must abide by a variety of rules, the regulatory picture for digital platforms is very different. In recent months we have seen some companies reducing their presence on the high street, but we know that online gambling is growing. Government initiatives in this area, while welcome, have been piecemeal. Industry bodies have taken steps to promote responsible gambling, including through November’s Safer Gambling Week, but we know that loopholes exist and are causing considerable damage.

With digital services there is the added challenge of jurisdiction, with some service providers registered outside the UK and therefore not currently within our regulatory orbit. We have discussed this very challenge recently in the context of audio-visual service providers and potential regulatory gaps arising from EU exit. Without prejudging the outcomes of the consultation and the next steps in the process, I hope the Minister can at least confirm that the department is cognisant of the issue. As I alluded to previously, we have been awaiting this project for some time. As with other policy areas such as online harms, we know that delays can result in genuine social costs. Can the Minister shed light on why it has taken so long to get to this point and outline the anticipated timescale beyond the consultation end date, which I believe is 31 March? While the technicalities involved in gambling regulation clearly necessitate a dedicated consultation and future legislation, it is nevertheless important not to look at these issues in isolation. For example, we know that adopting a public health-focused approach to gambling addiction could bring significant benefits to sufferers and their families.

The Statement cites work being undertaken by the Department of Health and Social Care to improve the support and treatment available to problem gamblers. We welcome this, but can the Minister confirm that the Department of Health and Social Care will be part of the broader regulatory discussions to ensure that future legislation supports, rather than undermines, its work on treatment?

There is a clear overlap between this gambling review and the Government’s wider online harms agenda, which, I am afraid to say, seems to have ground to a halt. By any conceivable measure, the DCMS is failing to protect people online. There is no draft online harms legislation to scrutinise and few indications of when it will arrive, or in what form. Can the Minister outline the state of play in relation to this? Can we expect to see concrete legislative proposals by Easter, for example?

We know that the department recently missed a statutory deadline under the Data Protection Act to provide provision relating to victims, including child victims, of data breaches. This news was broken to a select few noble Lords in correspondence on the day of the deadline. Can the Minister confirm why this milestone was missed and when the review is expected finally to take place?

While she is gazing into her crystal ball, perhaps the Minister might also provide news on the fan-led review of football governance. Given the close and important relationship between sports clubs and the gambling industry, it is crucial that these workstreams happen simultaneously, rather than sequentially. The Commons Minister said that work is under way on an informed basis, with the formal review to come as soon as possible. However, one Minister at the department told the Commons Select Committee to expect a consultation on the Electronic Communications Code this side of Christmas, whereas the noble Baroness told my noble friend Lord Stevenson of Balmacara on 10 December that timings were “still to be finalised”.

I apologise for failing to spread any festive cheer with this contribution, but all these issues are incredibly important. I appreciate that this has been a challenging year in many respects for government and for all, and I hope very much that 2021 will see us making meaningful progress on all fronts.

[Lord Foster of Bath (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for providing the opportunity to debate this Statement.

Since serving on the Commons committee that considered the Gambling Act 2005, I have seen the huge growth in gambling in this country brought about by that Act and by technological change, not least with the advent of the smartphone, enabling anyone to have 24/7 access to a mini-casino in their pocket, with high-speed games designed to keep people playing. With its spread throughout sport and television, children are seeing gambling as part of everyday life. The gambling industry and its profits have grown exponentially but, most worryingly, 60% of those profits are coming from just 5% of gamblers—those likely to be experiencing harm.

More recently, serving on the Lords committee on gambling, I received very clear evidence of the urgent need for action—not least that described in the committee’s 66 recommendations—from a statutory smart levy on the industry and a statutory duty of care to much stronger regulation of advertising and controls on affordability. Those recommendations, many of which do not need primary legislation, have widespread support in your Lordships’ House, as demonstrated by the nearly 150 Peers who have joined Peers for Gambling Reform, which I have the honour to chair and which seeks early implementation of those recommendations, so that those who wish to gamble can do so safely.

The urgency is illustrated by the figures. There are nearly half a million problem gamblers—probably more—including over 60,000 11 to 16 year-olds, with each problem gambler impacting the lives of family, friends and local communities, and, most tragically, on average, one gambling-related suicide every day.

So although I welcome the review, will the Minister assure me that in those areas where overwhelming evidence for change exists, the Government will take action immediately? Sadly, I was not confident about this last week. I asked the Minister what further evidence the Government need to establish a gambling ombudsman. Despite the overwhelming evidence in the Lords report, she replied:

“The Government continue to have an open mind about the role of an ombudsman.”—[Official Report, 9/12/20; col. 1234.]


I hope that she will she reconsider. However, I welcome the work that has been done on VIP schemes and banning credit card gambling, as well as the work in relation to loot boxes and affordability. Can the Minister update us on progress and assure us that, where action can be taken quickly without waiting for the conclusion of the review, it will happen?

Gambling harm is a public health issue, and like the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, I was disappointed to see no formal role for the Department of Health and Social Care in this review. Will the Minister assure me that the review will take a public health approach and that mechanisms are in place to ensure that DHSC participates fully? The threat of major reform has led the industry to make some welcome, albeit limited, changes, but we are dealing with a vast, multinational industry that is obliged to protect its profits. Does the Minister agree that this review must be evidenced-based and avoid undue influence by industry lobbyists—lobbyists arguing, for example, that reform should be muted for fear of seepage to the black market? Of course we should look to measures to tackle the black market through payment processors and domain blocking, but does she agree with the Gambling Commission that the black market is not a significant issue and should not be used to drive down standards locally? Is she aware that some operators in this country are themselves operating in black or grey markets abroad? Will the Minister ask the regulator to look into this matter urgently?

Last week, I met the mother and the fiancée of Chris Bruney, who tragically took his own life because of a gambling addiction at the age of just 25. Chris was a bright and vibrant young man with his whole life ahead of him. To my mind, there can be no more powerful illustration of the need to reform our outdated gambling laws. I urge the Government not to delay.

Audiovisual Media Services (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Friday 27th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, colleagues across the House have posed a number of very awkward questions for the Minister to answer, and I am going to add one or two more of my own. It is worth making a few observations that perhaps take us to the point where we can see an improvement in the patchwork of regulation that we are left with.

As we have seen with a number of recent DCMS instruments, our ability to effectively regulate digital activity will be restricted without broader reciprocal arrangements with the EU and others, as my noble friend Lord Blunkett admirably explained and set out in his comments, which were echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and others across the House.

This SI provides some certainty on matters of jurisdiction after the transition period, which empowers Ofcom to regulate video-sharing platforms where their primary establishment is in the UK—but it does rather leave it at that. It is important today to remind ourselves that the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee said that:

“It is important that the Government will adhere to the legislative timetable provided by the Department, so that the current regulatory gap, which leaves UK users potentially exposed to online harm, can be closed.”


That is a pretty damning observation, and we should be worried by that. We need greater certainty for the sector, and greater certainty as legislators and regulators. Can we be assured that this regulatory gap will be closed pronto? We need the online harms legislation to provide the certainty that we all crave.

VSPs that operate in the UK but are established in other countries may fall under Ofcom’s jurisdiction, but not, as others have observed, if that firm has a presence in the EEA. In that case, power will reside with the European regulator and we will, after the end of this year, be shut out from that—and we need influence.

Paragraph 2.18 of the Explanatory Memorandum notes the particular challenges around TikTok, which is based in China and has no physical presence in either the UK or EEA, and which is therefore currently in a regulatory void. This concern, as others have observed, is covered by the 32nd report of the SLSC. Paragraph 2.19 of the memorandum acknowledges that

“there will only be a small number of VSPs in Ofcom’s jurisdiction.”

Can the Minister estimate how many? Is she confident that Ofcom has the regulatory tools needed?

We find ourselves in a bizarre holding pattern where we will have to make do with these arrangements between the end of the transition period and the emergence of the long-awaited online harms Bill. Can the Minister provide any new information on when that legislation is expected? Will it be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny, as has been suggested in some quarters, and if so can she confirm what that will look like? It would be very helpful to this House and to the other place if we had that opportunity.

We hope we will finally have some news on a deal with the EU in coming days, if one ever gets over the line. However, if ever an area of law needed to be put in place quickly to cover the gaps that exist, this is it, and we need strong arrangements on digital regulation if we are not to be at the mercy of the market. That said, of course we support this instrument, which is making a contribution to providing an urgently needed regulatory regime.

Sport Sector: Financial Support

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Wednesday 25th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for repeating last week’s Statement. Normally, it is undesirable to have such a gap between the debates in both Houses, but, in this case, it allows us to consider recent developments.

Labour welcomes the additional financial support for the sport sector, and I repeat the thanks expressed by my colleague, Alison McGovern, for the hard-working Treasury and DCMS, who have had to deal with complex financial returns at speed. It is regrettable, and I do not like to sound curmudgeonly here, but Ministers chose that process at such a late stage. However, these funds will nevertheless provide a lifeline for the range of sports that receive them, and for that reason they are very welcome.

Last week, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State reiterated his desire for this money to be going out in weeks and certainly for some of it to be disbursed before Christmas. Is the noble Baroness able to provide any updates on the planned timescales, particularly in the light of today’s wider economic announcements? Can she express in percentage terms what amount she expects to arrive at with organisations before year end? I very much hope that the department has learned lessons from its experience with the Culture Recovery Fund, which, as we all know, took some time to start distributing moneys.

In response to a question on equal access for funding by women’s sports, Mr Huddleston said that there would be an appropriate proportion for women’s sport. What, in the Minister’s view, is an appropriate amount? Again, I would appreciate a percentage. I know, from previous comments, that the Minister shares my view that we must not allow the pandemic to reverse the excellent progress and good work in women’s sports over recent years, but that will be possible only with appropriate financial help and support.

The noble Baroness will not be surprised if I ask for an update on the Government’s planned fan-led review of football governance. We have been told that preparations are in progress without any dates being named. Ministers continue to point out that it was a manifesto commitment of theirs. Given this, we would expect there to be some more urgency.

I wish to probe a little on Monday’s announcement that a limited number of fans will be allowed to return to sports stadia once the national lockdown is lifted and the tier system resumes. Allowing up to 4,000 fans to attend outdoor sporting events and up to 1,000 spectators at indoor events is a welcome step forward after an unprecedented period of professional sport being played behind closed doors. Noble Lords will know that these numbers are the absolute cap, with a percentage system in place for clubs with lower-capacity stadia. Can the Minister provide the evidence base behind the 4,000-person attendance limit?

Manchester United’s Old Trafford can ordinarily host well over 70,000 fans. Even the old wooden stands at Goodison Park will fail to emit their customary creak with just 4,000 fans present. Twickenham Stadium has a capacity of 80,000. While it is not desirable to have these grounds full at this time, on what basis was it determined that they were unable to safely host a higher number? Premier League clubs have spent large sums preparing their grounds to accommodate socially distanced fans. Similar steps have been taken by rugby clubs and others in anticipation of reopening their doors. While they will be excited to welcome even a small number of fans back home, doing so is likely to result in financial losses, which will become unsustainable if the cap is not revisited.

Therefore, when are we likely to see a detailed road map for increasing sporting capacities? Will DCMS commission new test events to inform such a road map? Has any consideration been given to previous test events and the data they have provided? I draw attention to the case of Brighton & Hove Albion. There was approval in principle for crowds of around 8,000; that would move individual fixtures from loss to profit. Even for lower league clubs, which desperately need that additional income, the current offer is unlikely to satisfy demand from season-ticket holders who have paid up front. I am told that AFC Wimbledon, which has just completed its historic return to a new stadium at Plough Lane, had over 3,000 season-ticket holders last year and are expecting that number to climb. If the area remains in tier 2, it means that the club will admit only those who have already paid, rather than making new money.

I stress that we do not want to rush this. We need to be confident that stadia of all ages and sizes can cope with the return of fans and that there are appropriate protocols in place, not only around grounds but on transport networks as well. However, sports clubs at all levels need to see progress, not just one-off announcements. This is true in relation to support from government and clubs’ ability to raise their own funds. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Botham, for example, will be hoping that Lord’s is able to welcome a higher number of spectators when cricket returns next summer—otherwise he, like the rest of us, will be obliged to watch remotely and that cannot be right.

I want to close with one final question regarding the Prime Minister’s recent announcement. We know from the Independent SAGE group that the ability for families to mix at Christmas may require new restrictions in January and beyond. If that comes to fruition, is it the Government’s intention that attendance at sporting events would become an exception to restrictions or do we face the prospect of clubs opening their doors in December, only to see them being slammed shut in the new year?

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, it a good thing that we have this debate, even if it is nearly a week late. The old adage that a week is a long time in politics must be ringing very loudly in the Minister’s ears at the moment, because we have had many announcements that add to this Statement. The biggest, shall we say, elephant in the room— or dog that is not barking—is what is happening with arrangements for the upper tiers of professional football. If the Minister knows anything, now would be a good time to tell us. I would understand if no arrangement has been reached, but if anything can be told about that it would help us.

To return to what is said in the Statement, we need a little more flesh on the bone. For instance, I live in the village of Lambourn in the “Valley of the Racehorse”. There, the National Trainers Federation has been asking how the money going to the racing establishment is going to trickle down to its members. Without people who look after the horses, you do not have any event. It is not that straightforward and there are details to go through.

The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, has already had a good go on the fact that getting some fans into the grounds will help a few clubs. But one of my noble friends has pointed out to me that certain lower league clubs are getting gates of 18,000—I think Portsmouth does, if my noble friend the Chief Whip has told me right. He is nodding at me, so I am fairly safe there. If that is the case, how will this potential lifeline and way out compensate them? The reform of football has been made more pressing by Covid. We should be looking at the fact that the current model is virtually unsustainable. I do not think that we should forget that at any time.

On rugby union, I heard a question today that I want to ask the Minister. What do you do about the money for the Olympic sport of sevens, which was cut due to this? I have heard that an arrangement is coming to help with that, which is good news, but rugby union may well be the last sport to play again. Let us face it, old prop forwards like me know that we form our own special non-socially distanced, germ-spreading little units around the place when we play the game. When do the Government expect there to be sufficient immunisation to allow us to come back? Intelligent things have been done about trying to get a different version of the game played. Rugby union may be the best example, but all sports have these questions. Will the Government have some form of timescale to allow the fans in and the playing of the game in all circumstances, especially at community level?

We may have gone a little wider than the Statement in this debate but a lot has happened. It would help if we could find out now exactly what the Government are thinking.

Covid-19: Football League

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Tuesday 10th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord is not alone in having grandchildren who enjoy sport, and children’s sport is vital. That is one reason we have ensured that it can carry on in school even during the current lockdown.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, is the Minister now able to explain to the House what the Government have done to ensure that those 20 or so EFL clubs facing financial collapse can continue to trade and play for fans, which is important, in the future? What hope can she gives to fans wanting to return to watching lower-league games, and can she commit to ensuring that clubs in the rest of the football pyramid can function viably across the rest of the season in these rather depressing times? Will she give us a timetable for the fan-led review that the Government say they are fully committed to? If she cannot do so, when will she?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

On the support needed across the English Football League, as I have said a couple of times, we have been very clear that those with the broadest shoulders within the football family and at the top of the pyramid need to bear that cost. We have been reassured by the Premier League that it has no intention of letting any club go bust because of the pandemic. Work continues on returning fans to stadia, including with the Sports Technology and Innovation Group, looking at every possible means to return fans as quickly as possible.

English Football: Project Big Picture

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Wednesday 14th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

The noble Lord asks a very good question. As I am sure he knows, the structure of the Premier League requires a two-thirds majority for any decision. We have been clear about the importance of the fan-led review of the governance and structural issues that football faces, and we have provided reassurance recently to the national league that support from the Government will be forthcoming.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it has long been clear that there is a problem with the financing and governance of English football, which Covid has exacerbated and the absence of fans has really highlighted. When will the Government bring forward their much-promised fan-led review, so that we can meaningfully address the structural challenges ahead? What plans do the Government have to ensure that there is a fair distribution of funding throughout the entire football pyramid—otherwise clubs such as Macclesfield will go bust, and the guarantees that the league has given that other clubs will not go bust will count for very little?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I am not sure whether the noble Lord heard my right honourable friend the Secretary of State before the Select Committee this morning, but he was clear about the priority that he places on the fan-led review. We are clear that there is a short-term financial issue facing the football family, which the Premier League and the English Football League need to get together to sort out. Longer term, the fan-led review will be a crucial part of addressing some of the other structural issues to which the noble Lord referred.

Professional and Amateur Sport: Government Support

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Thursday 1st October 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Alderdice) (LD)]

The noble Lord, Lord Bassam of Brighton, had a technical problem earlier on so I call him now.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

I am grateful to the House for its forbearance. We recognise that the DCMS and the Treasury have taken steps to support sports clubs but, as my noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe observed on Monday, sector-specific intervention tends to come at the 11th hour rather than when it would have the greatest benefit. We welcome news of support for the national league, but why did we have to lose Macclesfield Town to provoke ministerial action?

The Government’s first preference is for governing bodies and clubs to do what they can within their own resources. Does the Minister accept, however, that the financial returns submitted to the department are likely to show that reserves are running perilously low or have been depleted?

While we hope there will be solidarity initiatives within sport and that this will help to keep clubs afloat, they are not sufficient. Can the Minister provide an assurance that the Government will act more swiftly and decisively, and in a manner that recognises that sports clubs not only operate as businesses in their communities but are a vital community asset?

[Baroness Barran (Con)]

I think maybe the noble Lord asked more than one question, but I will try to answer as best I can. On his last point about acting swiftly and decisively, I reassure him that the Secretary of State and the Minister for Sport were on the phone to the national governing bodies of the main spectator sports immediately after the Prime Minister’s announcement that made it clear that spectators could not return on 1 October.

With regard to the financial returns, we are looking forward and are working through those, though obviously their scale and scope will vary. We are very clear about our role in helping clubs. In relation to the noble Lord’s first question, the twists and turns of the virus are difficult to predict, and we have reacted extremely promptly to the current situation.

Seaside Resorts

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Monday 22nd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Baroness is right, and that is why the Government are trying to tackle this problem from different perspectives. We were already aiming to work in just those communities ahead of Covid, whether through our ambitious transport and infrastructure plans, our levelling-up plans, our tourism sector deal or the wider work within that deal that will focus on improving job opportunities in those communities.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the Lords Select Committee on the future of seaside towns, which I had the privilege of chairing, recommended government intervention on transport, education, skills training, digital inclusion, housing and the creation of new town deals. Will the Government now consider expanding the scope of the town deals to cover more left-behind seaside communities, and will they seek to use an expanded programme as part of the national recovery plan, given that Covid has, as we have heard, hit these communities hardest?

[Baroness Barran]

The Government are certainly looking at how we can maximise the impact of the tourism sector deal. I am not clear at the moment whether that will be through expanding the number of tourism action zones or making sure that some of the skills and other training that will be offered through the deal are spread more broadly across the country. However, this is definitely something that we are focusing on.

Premier League: Project Restart

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Tuesday 19th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran]

All the details on the impacts if either an athlete or a member of staff at a club were to fall ill with Covid are being worked out. A clear framework is being set up, with each club having a member of staff who is the responsible Covid-19 officer and a Covid-19 medical officer who will lead on any suspected or confirmed cases and make sure there is medical oversight for returning to work.

On funding for the wider leagues and clubs, the Government have been very clear that we expect any finances secured through the resumption of the professional game to benefit the wider football family.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, like the Minister, we all want to see the Premier League season complete, but not to the detriment of players, support staff and those involved at all levels of the game. Can the Minister comment further on that? Can she explain precisely what measures the Government intend to take to secure the financial security of not just the Premier League and Championship but the other leagues and, importantly, the women’s game through the WSL?

[Baroness Barran]

I will start with the last point first. I know that in all the work my ministerial colleagues, including the Secretary of State, have done, there has been a real focus on making sure that we do not lose momentum in the women’s game. That is very much front of mind.

On the development of the guidance, there are three levels. The step 1 guidance sets out the risk assessment mitigation plan; step 2 and step 3 guidance will be produced regarding close-contact training and games potentially being played behind closed doors. Through medical advice from government and Public Health England, we are supporting the football authorities as they take these decisions.

On funding, I have already mentioned that we see this as part of a wider football family and welcome the moves the Premier League has already made to advance money to the English Football League.

Football: Racism

Lord Bassam of Brighton Excerpts

Thursday 16th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran]

I will comment on my noble friend’s final remark first. I can only agree with him. Each of us individually has to take responsibility for the language we use and put ourselves in the shoes of those who might find it offensive in any way. Work continues in relation to homophobia, in football specifically, and we very much welcome the Rainbow Laces campaign which the FA led last year.

[Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab)]

My Lords, it is now 20 years since the Football (Disorder) Act was enacted to tackle racist thugs. Does the Minister agree that, given the shocking 123% rise in racist incidents since 2016, now might be the time to consider increasing penalties and strengthening powers to tackle this appalling problem in our football grounds?

[Baroness Barran]

The noble Lord is very patient. He raised this point only 19 years ago, but we are now further on. The question of the efficacy of the legislation can be divided into two parts: whether the legislation is fit for purpose and is being implemented properly, and if it is not fit for purpose whether we need to amend it. My honourable friend the Minister for Sport is seeking a meeting with the Home Secretary to discuss this.