Iraq: Nimrud

Debate between Lord Bach and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Thursday 12th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I am well aware that the strictest form of Salafism believes in the destruction of idols. There is a certain amount in the Old Testament about the destruction of idols, for those of us who remember those particular chapters. Unfortunately, these are part of the most ancient and crabbed versions of different religions. We argue with the Saudis about producing a much more enlightened version of Islam and encouraging that within their own country.

[Lord Bach (Lab)]

My Lords, if any further proof was needed, the destruction of the remains of ancient Nimrud shows the sheer barbarism of ISIL. By the way, I am sure that the whole House will want to wish the Minister a happy birthday today. We know him to be a very busy and conscientious Minister with many tasks. Will he confirm that there are now no remaining blockages to Britain signing up to the implementation of the Hague convention on the protection of cultural property?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the blockage on that has been a matter of finding legislative time. Reading through the preparation for this, it seems to me that this is an ideal Bill for one of us to take through this House if there is not time in the first Session of the next Government. We last considered the question of ratification in 2004. Sadly, no Government since then have found time in their legislative programme.

Sri Lanka: Presidential Elections

Debate between Lord Bach and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Wednesday 14th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, we are entirely ready to give that commitment. The Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister have already sent messages. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, will be aware that the new Prime Minister, Ranil Wickremesinghe, is known to many people within his own party, as his party is associated with the Conservatives on an international basis.

[Lord Bach (Lab)]

My Lords, we on this side join in the congratulations to the new President and wish him and his Government well. Will Her Majesty’s Government, when they are in discussions with the new Government of Sri Lanka, encourage them to review, seriously and as a matter of urgency, the allegations that have been made about human rights abuses over the last few years in that country? Further, would Her Majesty’s Government encourage the new Government in Sri Lanka to sign up to the initiative of the former Foreign Secretary, the right honourable William Hague, on sexual violence in conflict, something that the previous Sri Lankan Administration singularly failed to do?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, we are in a regular dialogue with the Sri Lankan Government and Administration on all these matters. Members of this House may not be aware how closely the British Government and their representatives work with our colleagues in the European Union on issues such as this—in Sri Lanka as in Georgia—to exert pressure and bring it to bear. There is of course the UN human rights investigation, which will continue. The UN Human Rights Council will discuss that at its forthcoming meeting in March.

CIA: Torture

Debate between Lord Bach and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his original Answer to this Question. Will he set out whether Her Majesty’s Government believe that the Intelligence and Security Committee has the capacity and the resources that it needs to investigate these matters?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I already said that the Intelligence and Security Committee has taken on additional staff to cope with this inquiry. I recognise that there are some considerations as to how open the report of the Intelligence and Security Committee will be. We have to wait to see how much it will be able to publish. I think we all recognise that this is all an extremely delicate area in terms of how much one can publish. I wish I could give an assurance that the next Government, whoever they may be, will do their utmost to ensure that as much as possible is published.

Iran: Ghoncheh Ghavami

Debate between Lord Bach and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Thursday 4th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the Government have been actively engaged on this case and will continue to be so.

[Lord Bach (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, for raising this case. When a British citizen is being wrongly treated anywhere in the world, we have to be active on that person’s behalf. I thank the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Ministers for the efforts they have made, as well as the work done by Miss Ghavami’s Member of Parliament, the honourable Andy Slaughter, on his constituent’s behalf. Please will the Minister ensure that the strenuous diplomatic efforts that have already been made continue—perhaps in the margins of today’s Afghan conference—so that, as the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, said, this British citizen may return home as soon as possible?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I understand that Mr Zarif is not attending today’s Afghan conference, but there will be Iranian representation. Those conversations certainly continue. One problem is that Miss Ghavami is a dual national, and the Iranians do not recognise the status of dual nationality.

Hong Kong

Debate between Lord Bach and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I thank the noble Lord for that detailed and constructive question. We are talking about the Basic Law of 1997 and not the joint declaration of 1984, and we are talking about the commitment to universal suffrage. The issue at stake regarding the demonstrations is how open the nomination of the Chief Executive should be. The question of judicial independence came up with regard to a Chinese Government White Paper of June 2014. It is the British Government’s view that judicial independence in Hong Kong has not been compromised by that White Paper.

[Lord Bach (Lab)]

My Lords, the Basic Law of Hong Kong, which the Minister has already referred to, dealing with the introduction of universal suffrage, also affirms rights to freedom of speech, press freedom and freedom of association. I am sure that the Minister will agree that the Basic Law of Hong Kong is crucial in the present circumstances and that it must continue to be pursued in practice.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I entirely agree with that. On the whole, the demonstrations in Hong Kong have been handled well and they have continued peacefully. Recently, some of the student leaders of the demonstrations conducted discussions with the executives of Hong Kong on television. There are not that many countries in the world where that would be possible on quite such a peaceful basis. Therefore, there are aspects of the joint declaration and the Basic Law that are very fully observed.

Commonwealth: Young Entrepreneurs

Debate between Lord Bach and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Monday 24th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, of course we should be doing that. Part of the problem in the Caribbean is that, apart from Jamaica and Trinidad and Tobago, we are talking about very small islands with very small economies, and getting major enterprises going in such areas is often a little more difficult than it is in larger countries.

[Lord Bach (Lab)]

My Lords, given that the Caribbean area is not, to put it mildly, a priority for DfID aid, should Her Majesty’s Government be doing more to assist some of the smaller islands there, some of which not only suffer from deep poverty but need support in order to succeed in establishing successful trading and business concerns?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, my brief says that the Caribbean is very much one of DfID’s priorities. We are of course conscious of the difficulties that some of the smaller Caribbean economies have. I am told that, apart from Guyana, none of the Caribbean economies is at present demonstrating very strong economic growth.

Sri Lanka

Debate between Lord Bach and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Monday 24th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I would be surprised if the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police is not already aware of it. The United Kingdom Government are actively concerned to promote reconciliation and reconstruction within Sri Lanka among all of its different communities.

[Lord Bach (Lab)]

My Lords, President Rajapaksa has called an early presidential election for 8 January next year. Last week there were defections by senior Ministers from the Government, including Mr Sirisena, who will be the principal opposition candidate. Given the history of such elections in the past and that reports this weekend suggest that Mr Sirisena’s first broadcast has been blocked and his bodyguards removed, what do Her Majesty’s Government believe are the prospects for a free, fair and inclusive election?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the British Government and others are talking about the best way in which to make sure that there is effective monitoring of the elections. We will of course be raising such issues with the Sri Lankan Government.

Ebola

Debate between Lord Bach and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Thursday 23rd October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

Speed is certainly important. That is why the United States has taken the lead in Liberia, the United Kingdom in Sierra Leone and France in Guinea. We have lead countries. We are now working with others—the Norwegians are being particularly helpful, for example, as well as the other Nordic states—and discussing within the EU, last weekend and today, how others will feed their efforts and contributions in terms of money and people into what the lead nations are doing.

[Lord Bach (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, makes a very powerful point. Clearly what is needed is urgent work on the assets that NATO might bring to this crisis. My question for the Minister is: if not NATO, what other international body do Her Majesty’s Government believe could do the job?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I have already said twice that the United Kingdom Government raised the question at the Foreign Affairs Council of the European Union last weekend, and that the Prime Minister will be discussing it with our European partners today and tomorrow. There has been an informal arrangement between NATO and the European Union in recent years that NATO is the security organisation which deals with major security issues and that the European Union is the forum through which we work on humanitarian issues, particularly in Africa. For this, I think the European Union is the right framework—and I hope I do not upset too many noble Lords by saying that.

European Union Committee: Report on 2013-14 (EUC Report)

Debate between Lord Bach and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Thursday 24th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I very much take that point. The new European Parliament is a rather more difficult body with which to co-operate than its predecessor, but I think it is extremely important nevertheless that we do co-operate. I am in the middle of making arrangements to go out myself with one or two others in September to talk to new Members of the European Parliament, British and others, with whom, of course, we must co-operate.

[Lord Bach]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. May I remind him of my final question? It was about the position regarding the new Commissioner and the Government’s response to him coming to a hearing at either of the two committees or both.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I apologise; I should of course have responded to that. The Government have no difficulty with the noble Lord, Lord Hill, coming to talk to the committee. I think that they would resist any idea that this should be a formal process through which the committee would decide whether or not it thought he was the appropriate British candidate. However, in pursuance of a close and continuing relationship with the committee, I am sure that he would be entirely open to coming to give evidence and to start what will be a continuing process. One of the sad disadvantages of the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, being the European Union’s high representative has been that she has, perforce, had to spend much of her time outside Europe. She has therefore not been able to pursue one of the many useful roles of a commissioner from a particular country, which is to spend time maintaining a link between the public and political elite in her own country and the Brussels process. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Hill, is very anxious to make sure that that is seen to be part of his new role.

Qatar: Migrant Workers

Debate between Lord Bach and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Thursday 24th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a very fair point.

[Lord Bach (Lab)]

My Lords, what discussions have the Government had—and this follows on from what the Minister said to my noble friend Lord Monks—with FIFA and with the British Football Association regarding migrant workers in Qatar and the 2022 World Cup?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I am looking round to see whether the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, whose subject this is, is here. FIFA has had a great deal of conversations with the Government of Qatar and others. I have before me a workers charter agreed by FIFA and Qatar—

[Lord Bach]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister. What discussions have the British Government had?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

The British Government of course have discussions with FIFA, but, like the International Olympic Committee, this is an autonomous body with which we have a dialogue, but we are unable to give instructions. We support everything that FIFA is doing to try to improve construction issues in relation to the World Cup 2022 and of course we have many other issues relating to the necessary reform of FIFA.

European Union: Reform

Debate between Lord Bach and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Tuesday 10th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, green cards, yellow cards and red cards are all floating around at the moment. The only one that is in the Lisbon treaty is the yellow card; the green and red card proposals are on the table and I think that they are mentioned in the House of Lords EU Committee report. With regard to subsidiarity, this is acquis—it is agreed. It is what the Dutch Government were talking about; the phrase in their report, as I recall, is, “European where necessary, national where possible”. That is something that the Danes, Swedes and a number of others agree on. The new Italian Prime Minister talked in terms that my own party leader, the Deputy Prime Minister, used many years ago when he was an MEP: “Better Europe, not more Europe”.

[Lord Bach (Lab)]

My Lords, we all agree that the European Union needs reform. However, the Prime Minister seems reluctant, maybe for internal party reasons—of course I exclude the Minister from those internal party reasons—to set out any specific reforms that Her Majesty’s Government want to see, in marked contrast, if I may say so, to my party, which has set out specific proposals. Will the Minister assure the House that the Prime Minister will set out specific proposals in time for discussion at the next EU Council meeting on 26 June?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I am very sorry that I have missed the specific Labour proposals; I look forward to receiving them from the noble Lord. The Prime Minister has made it quite clear that in terms of a stronger role for national parliaments, a much clearer definition of the areas that the Commission should be leading on and those where it should be much more cautious, a number of other Governments have already agreed that those are the directions in which we should now travel. However, every week Ministers from Britain are going to different European Councils of Ministers in which negotiations of this sort are under way. Actually spelling out a checklist, all of which had to be achieved or we would leave, would be absolutely the wrong way forward. In this respect I am absolutely at one with the Prime Minister.

Syria: Refugees

Debate between Lord Bach and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Wednesday 6th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bach (Lab)]

My Lords, in relation to Jordan and what the noble Lord has asked about, the Jordanian Government need particular help because a substantial number of refugees in Jordan are actually with host families rather than in refugee camps. This means that the Jordanian Government need more help because UNHCR aid is not as forthcoming as it would be in refugee camps. The Jordanian Government need more money in order that those refugees with host families are adequately looked after, particularly—here I repeat what the noble Lord who asked the Question said—with regard to drinking water and the price of it. What special help, beyond what the Minister has already stated, is to be given to Jordan itself because of the particular difficulties that that country has at the present time and because of what we owe to that country ourselves?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I have already announced that the Government are giving specific aid to the Jordanians to support a number of activities. We are well aware that drinking water is a particular problem. As the noble Lord rightly points out, a number of refugees in Lebanon and Turkey, as well as in Jordan, are not in refugee camps but have been taken in by local families. That is a good thing in many ways but it does of course increase the strain on local communities.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Debate between Lord Bach and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Thursday 14th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I can be very brief and start by saying how grateful the House should be to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, for explaining this amendment so clearly. We support the amendment. It seems sensible; and it seems equally sensible for the Government, when a sensible amendment is put before them, to react favourably. It would cost them nothing to accept the amendment and would put right something that has been slightly wrong in this section of the 2003 Act. As the noble Lord said, this is a classic example of unintended consequences. His analysis of the law seems to us to be correct and it would be sensible for the Government to accept the amendment.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, for having sent a letter to all interested parties on 24 June, included in which is a part that addresses this particular issue. She argued that no formal consultation had taken place between the police and the Government although there had been some informal consultation. She suggested that the Government would not give way on this amendment but we will wait for the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, to answer for the Government. If the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, were minded to push this extremely sensible amendment to a vote, we would support it.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, this amendment is near identical to one tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Lester, during Committee stage of this Bill, and to which we gave a fairly full response at the time, so I will be brief. We promised the noble Lord in my response at the time that we would give the matter further consideration. Having done so, I am afraid that the advice we have received is that we remain unconvinced that we want to make an amendment that would make it easier for a convicted offender to sue the police for damages until we hear good answers to the questions and issues that I mentioned in Committee and which I will not repeat here.

We have looked at this again and take the view that the previous Government also took when the issue was raised in 2009. The House should be very clear that Section 329 does not give the police carte blanche to use disproportionate force. They are still subject to the criminal law which permits only reasonable force. All that Section 329 does is raise the bar by making it more difficult for criminals to get financial benefit from situations where they were the ones committing an imprisonable offence. It is reasonable and fair to treat a person who holds the office of constable in the same way for these purposes as any other member of the public. We should not rush to the assumption that it is an unintended consequence for the police to enjoy the protection of Section 329. As I have suggested, the police will inevitably be the people most likely to be able to invoke Section 329, given that their job involves confronting people who are in the course of committing imprisonable offences. The text of Section 329 supports this since subsection (5) specifically extends the protection to people who believe their act was necessary to

“apprehend, or secure the conviction, of the claimant after he had committed an offence”.

I therefore remain unconvinced that an amendment to Section 329 of the 2003 Act in the way proposed by the noble Lord is the right way forward. I hope that after the reassurance that we have again considered this issue the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill

Debate between Lord Bach and Lord Wallace of Saltaire

Thursday 9th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bach]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, on having picked up this point so well from her noble friend Lord Lester. I congratulate him too on putting down this amendment. I hope he will forgive me in his absence for describing him in this instance as a dog with a bone. He has come back to this issue today after first raising it following the judgment in the case that the noble Baroness referred to when the previous Government were in power. He did that in the course of a couple of Bills. At that stage Ministers, including me, I have to admit, had to tell the noble Lord, Lord Lester, that consultations would take place with the police.

There is undoubtedly a point here—the noble Baroness has described it very well. This particular section of the 2003 Act was clearly intended as some sort of response to the Martin case and the Act’s purpose was really intended, or so it said, for other citizens as opposed to the police. There is some sort of at least theoretical clash, as Lord Justice Sedley pointed out in the instant case, between the position of police officers and others on arrests, so it does require an answer from Government.

We said on 25 February 2010—it was me, I am afraid to say—that the consultation that we had said would take place had not taken place by that date. But of course the noble Baroness will know that her Government have now been in power for a good 13 months now—it is 15 or 16 months since I uttered those words—and I am quite sure this consultation will have taken place regardless of government. I therefore look forward to hearing her response to this small but quite important point about the 2003 Act. I presume the consultation has taken place and the Government will be able to tell us what they intend to do about the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lester.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, it falls to me to answer this debate. I have to say that I am not fully briefed on whether or not the consultation has taken place. I suspect there was a little bit of irony there from the noble Lord, Lord Bach, and his confidence that this will automatically take place regardless of changes in government, but I will write to him to inform him about how far it has got.

We are talking of course about Section 329 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003. The intention was to benefit victims of crime, together with third parties who are not the direct victim of the offence but who may have intervened to protect the victim or deter the criminal. We are aware that it has so far been invoked only in respect of damages claims by police rather than by others who have sought to rely on the provisions as a defence in a number of cases. As noble Lords have mentioned, Lord Justice Sedley, in the case of Adorian v The Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, made a number of criticisms.

Section 329 of the 2003 Act is not a licence for the police to use disproportionate force as under the criminal law. The police can use only reasonable force. Neither does the section affect the criminal liability of householders, victims and others. Let us also keep in mind that the section applies only when the offender has been convicted of an imprisonable offence committed on the same occasion as the incident he is now suing for.

With these points in mind, this amendment raises a number of issues. First, is it fair and reasonable under general law to treat a person who holds the office of constable less advantageously than any other member of the public? Secondly, we should be very clear on what the practical consequences will be before making an amendment which would result in making it easier for a convicted offender to sue the police for damages. Thirdly, we need to be a little clearer on how this amendment might work, given that the powers of constables apply 24 hours a day, seven days a week. An off-duty constable who exercises this power to arrest a suspect found breaking into his own private dwelling or a neighbour’s dwelling would still be acting in the course of his or her duty. We also need to consider how the amendment would apply to special constables or others who are lawfully employed to prevent crime.

We note the thrust of the comments in the Adorian case and that the application of Section 329 to the police was not expressly discussed in Hansard at the time that that legislation was passing through Parliament. However, we are currently unconvinced that for the police to invoke Section 329 is really an unintended consequence of that section. Arguably, the police are the people most likely to rely on a provision which restricts liability towards a person who is committing a criminal offence at the time. The reference in Section 329(5)(b) to the defendant believing that his act was necessary to,

“apprehend, or secure the conviction, of the claimant after he had committed an offence”,

might suggest that it was not so very far from Parliament’s contemplation that the police could seek to invoke this provision. But what matters is whether it is right, fair and proportionate for this protection to apply to constables.

I am afraid that as yet we remain unconvinced that the provisions in Section 329 are not right, fair and proportionate in their application to the police. Therefore, we remain unconvinced that they require amendment as the noble Lord suggests. In particular, we cannot see any reason why the civil liability of a victim and a constable who act jointly on the same occasion, or act as individuals on separate occasions, to resist and detain the convicted offender should not be subject to the same threshold.

Nevertheless, as this amendment raises important issues relating to the role and powers of the police, and given that the noble Lord has been patiently pursuing this matter for some time, I can give the noble Lord and the noble Baroness on his behalf the assurance that this Government, while bearing in mind other government priorities, will take one final look at this matter before the next stage. On that basis, I hope that the noble Baroness feels able to withdraw this amendment.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, my noble friend may be a dog with a bone, but he is quite a pedigree sort of dog. Clearly, the noble Lord as an outgoing Minister did not leave a letter on his desk for his successor, so we have no amendments.