Falkland Islands Defence Review

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Tuesday 24th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his very kind words. As regards Russia, the Ministry of Defence undertakes regular assessments of potential military threats to the Falkland Islands to ensure that we retain an appropriate level of defensive capability to address any such threats. We remain vigilant and are committed to the protection of the Falkland Islanders.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I lost 22 of my boys when my ship was sunk in the retaking of the Falklands, so the islands are particularly close to my heart. I am very glad that we are showing a commitment to keep defending them. The Argentinians’ behaviour is consistently extremely bad; for example, they are calling the new class of frigates they are buying from China “Malvinas class”, which is a clear statement of intent, even if currently they do not have the capability to do much about it.

I am concerned that our strategy for the whole South Atlantic has not been cleverly put together as regards things such as the British Antarctic Survey, how we look upon Antarctica, the other islands we are responsible for, the mail steamer that goes from Tristan da Cunha, as well as the defence aspects of the Falklands, all of which should be looked at together. Every time I go to the Falklands I am delighted to see that society there is now wealthy and vibrant, getting wealthier—and, my goodness me, if they get oil, they will be like Kuwait. Are they going to pay a large chunk of that £185 million? We seem to have almost no money, looking forward to our large defence budget, which will plunge to below 2% of GDP.

Defence: UK Territorial Waters

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Tuesday 24th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we have a robust range of measures for detecting and shadowing non-NATO vessels that may seek to enter our territorial waters without authority. We continue to develop new detection capabilities to maintain our operational advantage. SDSR 2015 will allow us to review the full spectrum of submarine detection capability, including maritime patrol aircraft. Meanwhile, RAF air crew are flying in allied MPA to retain the skills to regenerate the capability, should we decide to do so.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that the National Maritime Information Centre, established by the last Government but funded since then by the current Government, gives very good situational awareness of our waters, but we need assets to track and monitor things. Normally we have three offshore patrol vessels; one is in the West Indies, filling in because we do not have enough destroyers and frigates. We have only one frigate in UK waters, acting as the fleet ready escort—only one, in a great maritime nation such as ours. That shortage of assets is bad.

My question, though, relates to the helicopters that he talked about. I asked two years ago, a year ago, and I ask again now: has the Merlin Mk2 incorporated fully the ASW capabilities of the MRA4 Nimrod? Each of the previous times the Minister said, “Yes we’re doing it, yes we’re doing it”. Have we done it?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, on the first part of his question, I agree with the noble Lord about the National Maritime Information Centre, but he will know that I cannot answer the second part of his question.

Ukraine

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 9th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I absolutely agree that defence is the first duty of the Government. I reassure my noble friend that we will remain a first-rate military power. Sufficient defence spending will be required in light of all recent events. As well as maintaining our standing commitments, we must be able to deal with multiple challenges across all forms of the military spectrum, including new threats, such as cyber and asymmetric warfare.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, in this very dangerous world, clearly defence cuts have gone too far. It gives the wrong message to people such as Mr Putin. What was the reaction of the Minster’s right honourable friend the Prime Minister when he asked him, as he promised he would last week, to talk to the leader of the Opposition about putting a commitment to 2% of GDP on defence in each party’s manifesto? What exactly did he say when he asked him that question?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I think my answer was that I would take it back to my department. I am sure that the Prime Minister will take notice of the discussions in this Chamber, but decisions on departmental budgets are a matter for the next Government.

Defence Budget

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con)]

My Lords, we remain a strong and capable defence partner of the United States. We are able to fight alongside US forces anywhere in the world and are demonstrating this once again as the largest partner in the coalition effort against ISIL. We have the second largest defence budget in NATO, are meeting the target of 2% of GDP on defence spending and will spend more than £160 billion over the next 10 years equipping the Armed Forces.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer but have to say that it is horrifyingly complacent. For more than three years now, through the back channels, the Americans—the three services, the intelligence community and those on the Hill—have been expressing concern about our spend and the reductions in it. It is time now to be honest with our nation: our military capability has been cut by 20% to 30% since 2010. That is a huge reduction. Next year, in 2015-16, the percentage of GDP spent on defence will be 1.88%, the lowest for 25 years. There is a generation of leaders who believe that peace is the natural order of things and that wars are inconceivable. However, war drums are beating in eastern Europe, and it is time we sent a strong message of deterrence through our military capability—because military forces deter. Will the Minister talk with the Prime Minister, and ask him to talk with the leader of the Opposition, to maybe come to an agreement that both parties should make a commitment to spending 2% of GDP on defence, to take this out of the political arena? I would have suggested having the Lib Dems join in that discussion, but most Lib Dems, I am afraid, with some notable exceptions, want a reduction, rather like the Green Party.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I will take the noble Lord’s suggestion back to my department and it will pass it on, but we will meet the 2% target this year and next. Decisions on defence spending will then be made in the next spending review. However, the Prime Minister is clear that there will be an annual 1% real terms increase in spending on defence equipment. We are committed to ensuring that Britain’s Armed Forces remain among the most advanced and capable, able to protect our security interests across the globe.

Astute-class Submarines

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 2nd March 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con)]

My Lords, the build time and commissioning for each Astute-class submarine continues to reduce as lessons are learnt. For the first boat, HMS “Astute”, this took 170 months from the start of manufacture until operational handover to the Royal Navy. The second boat, HMS “Ambush”, achieved this in 149 months.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. As he will know, the first build of any class always takes longer. Perhaps he could write to me with the answer to this question: how long has HMS “Artful”, which is the third of the SSNs, taken from laying down to sea trials, compared with HMS “Agamemnon”, which is the one that is being built at the moment? All the information I have is that these lengths of time are suddenly starting to stretch out, which means that more money will be spent. Is the Minister aware that the US is now very concerned that the stretching out of timescales may impact on any future submarines, and worried about the impact on the common missile compartment that the Americans are funding to a large extent, but that we will be using?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I will write to the noble Lord on the point that he asks about. The Astute submarine programme required the UK’s nuclear submarine design build capability to be re-established following a 10-year gap since the delivery of the last Vanguard-class submarine. The consequences are still being felt across the whole of the submarine enterprise. Further improvements are still needed and we are working very closely with our key suppliers to ensure that they make those improvements.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am aware of this but it is probably difficult for me to say too much about the subject from the Dispatch Box.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I was not going to ask about that subject but, as we know, at one stage we had 16 attack submarines but now we have six, and that has an impact on antisubmarine warfare by submarines. My question really goes back the build rate—the drumbeat—of these submarines. The drumbeat was extended unnaturally because we did not wish to have the submarines coming off the production line quickly. That means that each boat costs more than it should have done. Is that not correct, or does the Minister believe that we had to build them over that timescale?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right but we are working with industry to try to speed up the manufacture of these submarines, and I think we are being very successful in that initiative.

Armed Forces: Baltic Defence

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Tuesday 24th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we have met the NATO target since coming to office and will do so to the end of financial year 2016. NATO membership means equitable sharing of risks and responsibilities, so it is a case of comparing Russia not to the UK but to NATO, which spends 10 times more on defence than Russia. On my noble friend’s second question, the Defence Secretary decided that the Procurement Minister should speak, given the conference’s focus on relations between industry and government.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, four destroyers and frigates were lost in the Falklands; eight were very badly damaged. That is 12 destroyers and frigates. Today, if we lost 12 ships, we would have seven destroyers and frigates protecting this great maritime nation. Our defence forces have been cut too far. Will the Minister pass on to his right honourable friend the Prime Minister the message that, bearing in mind the world situation, with chaos in countries such as Iraq, Syria, Libya, Nigeria, Somalia and Ukraine, and risk of growing tension with Russia, we need to spend more money on defence and must not have a block to proper discussion of defence in the lead-up to this election?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, sufficient defence spending is particularly required in light of recent events. We need to be able to deal with multiple challenges and undertake a range of operations across the military spectrum, as well as maintain our standing commitments. This Government have consistently committed to spending 2% of GDP on defence and 20% on equipment, and, along with the US, we have been one of only two allies that currently meet the NATO guidelines.

Russia: Armed Forces

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Thursday 5th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, NATO’s credibility depends on unity and implementing quickly and efficiently decisions taken at the Wales summit—in particular, the readiness action plan that will include a new high-readiness force to enhance NATO responsiveness and effectiveness—and publicly acknowledging the commitment by allies to aim to meet NATO’s target of 2% of GDP spent on defence. We are working with allies to ensure that momentum is maintained ahead of the summit in Poland next year.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that Mr Putin has increased spending on his nuclear triad by 42%, even though the country is an economic basket case. It has built a new class of ballistic missile submarines; it has introduced a new type of submarine-launched ballistic missile; and it has a new class of attack submarines, which, worryingly, have now got a long-range Cruise missile with a nuclear tip, which probably breaks the INF. Does the Minister agree that what Mr Putin calls his strategy of de-escalation, because he sees a conventional imbalance, is actually a strategy of escalation? Does he also agree with Labour that it is imperative now that we maintain our continuous at-sea nuclear deterrent, the minimum force possible, and replace the ageing Vanguard-class submarines one for one?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. The 2015 Russian defence budget is stated to be the equivalent of $50 billion, which is around 4.5% of Russian GDP. As to the Russian military doctrine, which the noble Lord mentioned, the last one was published in December 2014 and more emphasis is placed on the perceived danger from NATO, asymmetric warfare, advanced weaponry and the use of information and subversion.

Armed Forces: Aircraft Carrier

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Thursday 29th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, British F35B aircraft and pilots will be the first to operate from our carriers. UK pilots, engineers and deck handlers are currently operating from US Navy carriers, developing and maintaining skill sets to regenerate our carrier strike capability, working, as my noble friend said, with the US Marine Corps. We continue to identify opportunities to develop interoperability and synergy with our allies, including potential options to operate US Marine Corps aircraft from our carriers.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I am sure the whole House, and the nation, are delighted that we are now developing this carrier capability again after the real risk we took in 2010 of dropping it for the first time in 100 years. We are looking forward to this date. It is a long period of risk: we have got through five years of it and there are five years to go. There have been reports that the Sea Lightning—which rolls off the tongue much better than Lightning II, so perhaps the Minister would consider calling it Sea Lightning in future, rather than F35B—might be vulnerable to cyberattack through the autonomic logistics information system. If this is true, will the Minister confirm that we are making sure it is resilient, and that that resilience will be hardened, to stop that happening?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, that is a very good question. I gave a Written Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, on this very subject. The F35 autonomic logistics information system has been designed to be resilient against cyberattack and will be subject to testing throughout the life of the programme.

Defence: Type 26 Frigates

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 26th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to place an order for any Type 26 Frigates before the General Election; and if so, how many.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con)]

My Lords, we are working positively with BAES to maintain momentum on detailed ship design, cost, technical integration, supply chain and shipbuilding on the Clyde. Our common aim is to achieve greater maturity in designing the capability needed by the Royal Navy while maximising taxpayers’ value for money. We expect to make an announcement before the end of this Parliament. We are planning to replace the 13 Type 23s on a one-for-one basis.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for that reply. Interestingly, Japan is an island nation dependent for its existence on the sea, rather like the United Kingdom, but it does not run global shipping and is not responsible for 14 dependencies worldwide. It has just decided, in this very dangerous and chaotic world, to increase the number of destroyers and frigates in its navy from 47 to 52. Does the Minister think, in view of the fact that we have only 19 destroyers and frigates, that replacing the 13 frigates with the Type 26, bearing in mind that the oldest of them is seven years beyond its design date already, is very urgent? At the very least we should order long-lead items for those 13 now.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, it will be for the 2015 SDSR to consider how best to deliver the capability that the Royal Navy requires in the long term, but to ensure that the Navy gets the number of Type 26s and the capability that it requires we must be certain that we have a mature design and build programme before committing to an initial order size. I can assure the noble Lord that we expect to make decisions on some of the longer-lead items shortly.

Al-Sweady Inquiry Report

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Wednesday 17th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I, and I am sure the whole House, would agree with what my noble friend says. He asked me about the Legal Aid Agency’s inquiries into Mr Shiner. The agency was asked by the previous Lord Chancellor to investigate whether Public Interest Lawyers withheld these documents, thereby improperly obtaining public funding for the judicial review. The LAA has referred some concern to the Solicitors Regulation Authority and we understand that the SRA had already commenced an investigation into whether PIL or Leigh Day & Co breached any professional standards.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I welcome this report, which has been thoroughly done—and thank goodness it has put to bed those dreadful claims. However, I have some real concerns. We seem to be more willing now to concern ourselves with the human rights of people who set out to kill us—these men were actually intending to kill our soldiers, and often people are intending to kill civilians as well—than with the human rights of our own soldiers. I also have a real concern, to which the Minister alluded, about the impact that it might have on operational considerations. There is no doubt, when one looks back over the past few years, that these pressures, concerns and behaviour have an impact on operations. It has happened within the Royal Navy and in the Army. War is a nasty, bloody and horrible business; we cannot pretend it is anything else. People have to make decisions in seconds. When you are trying to get operational information, sometimes it is not the nicest thing possible. That does not mean that we should break all the human standards and behaviour that we expect—and we do not. But we have to be very careful about putting too many limits on them. I share the view of the noble Lord opposite about Mr Shiner and his firm and the other firm. I have managed to read only the first part of the report but clearly there are issues that need to be looked at by more than the Solicitors Regulation Authority. They should be looked at in great detail because we should never allow this sort of thing to happen to our own people by firms in this country. An ambulance chaser is too good a term if what is said in the report is true.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his support. I agree very much with what he says. He is concerned about service men and women on operations. I have discussed this issue at some length with the noble Viscount, Lord Slim, who I know also has concerns on this. I have spoken to many service men and women in the Army and the Marines, and I think that we have got it right at the moment. We learnt a lot of lessons in Iraq and Afghanistan—lessons learnt by the previous Government—regarding detention, interrogation and the rules of engagement. The lawyers learnt a lot of lessons, too. A few years ago I had many complaints about lawyers from soldiers, but I have not had a single one since I have been a Minister. I feel quite comfortable—from talking to soldiers, especially to the Special Forces, although we cannot say too much about that—that we are in a good place at the moment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Astor of Hever]

I very much agree with the noble Lord that any statement to the press should point out the presumption of innocence. I know that the noble Lord takes a great interest in this subject, and indeed I think I sat next to him on a C17 going out to Afghanistan a few years ago.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I apologise for coming in again, but the point made by my noble friend does raise something. There is a perception around the globe that we are guilty of doing ghastly things because of the way it was put out by so much of the media. In terms of our Prevent strategy and our outward-looking strategy, can I ask the Minister whether we are really going to make sure that it gets around that there was absolutely nothing behind this? We need to put that out through all the channels like the Prevent strategy and others.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very good point and I will take it back to the department. I shall talk to other Ministers and to our media people to see what we can do to get into the outside world the very important message referred to by the noble Lord.

Afghanistan: Interpreters

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Tuesday 2nd December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am very happy to discuss this issue with my noble friend outside the House, but I can assure him that we take intimidation very seriously. There is an in-theatre panel of very senior military and civilian personnel who consider every case on its merits. We have returned one locally engaged member of staff to the United Kingdom under the intimidation policy. We have relocated seven in-country, and many others have been assisted with security advice; for instance, changing the route.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I am afraid that the Government have been a complete shambles on this issue. They seem to have moved forward very slowly; they have been dragged into doing things. Now I believe that they are actually beginning to do things, but we are not telling the world that we are doing them. Does the Minister not agree that it is important that we make sure that our men and women around the world are supported by locally employed personnel? They will not do that unless they can see that they are going to be looked after.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I think that we have got a good news story here. We have engaged with media outlets and briefed individuals on the progress of our two LES schemes. Our focus remains the swift implementation of the generous offers under the ex gratia scheme and the thorough investigation of claims of and effective support for locally engaged staff who believe that their safety is threatened.

Armed Forces: Biofuels

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 31st March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I stand by my response to my noble friend earlier. As I said, this is for use only where UK regulations oblige fuel manufacturers to include them. As that use is both limited and obligatory, the MoD has no plans to conduct any form of appraisal.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord must agree that we have solved some of these fuel problems by having fewer and fewer ships and fewer and fewer aircraft. I looked historically at the 1950s—I needed to for a certain reason—and, on average, every year we commissioned between 15 and 20 warships. How many ships were commissioned in the latest financial year?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord is using his imagination to try to tempt me to discuss the number of ships. This Question is about biofuels.

Flooding: Military Deployment

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 24th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord asks a good question. Certainly the perceived risk of a substantial full-costs bill at the end of an operation can be a concern to local authorities. We would like to do more to support the civil authorities, but we must ensure that the defence budget is not disadvantaged, nor indeed gains any inappropriate benefit, from so doing. The Secretary of State is currently in discussions with the Treasury, exploring the possibility of a full marginal costing recovery scheme, which would make the costing situation much clearer to all parties in advance.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that numbers themselves have a real strength? In our push to try to reduce the number of people in the military to get maximum efficiency, we are losing that. France in its White Paper, for example, saw the use of the military in various départements as a very important part of the whole structure. Have we really looked at this in detail? I believe that we have reduced numbers to a level at which they cannot assist the civil power where they should be able to do so, because they are formed bodies which are very often self-supporting.

Defence: Nuclear Submarines

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Thursday 6th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, my noble friend asked me why it is being decommissioned and what is going to happen afterwards. I assure him that this has been very carefully thought out. I asked this question earlier of the people who briefed me. The answer is very technical and sensitive, and it may be better if I write to my noble friend. The short answer is that there has been so much technical progress that people can learn in much quicker and better ways than in the way things were done at Dounreay, but I am happy to write to my noble friend because it is a very important question.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. Since 1968, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, we have had a ballistic missile submarine deployed in the vast expanse of the north Atlantic carrying the nation’s deterrent—our ultimate and final insurance policy. Of course, SSBNs are amazingly complex bits of kit. Successive Governments and the Royal Navy have managed to ensure that they have operated safely and that they have had continual operational readiness. This announcement continues that tradition. Clearly there is no risk to anyone at all. That is quite clear from the announcement. It is quite clear from what has been spotted that there is no risk at all, so safety is fine and is paramount. Yet the Government have ensured that looking to the future they will maintain continuous at-sea deterrents. I congratulate them on making that decision, which no doubt was quite a difficult decision to make.

As always, there will of course be people, some of whom will be in Scotland and perhaps involved with Alex Salmond and his people, who will start muttering, “Gosh, nuclear is so unsafe. Isn’t this awful?”, even though there is no risk. All I would say to them is, “Let us take the past 50 years of operating nuclear submarines in the Royal Navy and compare the number of accidents and deaths in the oil and gas industry with the number of deaths involved with Royal Navy nuclear submarines”. I know that the answer for Royal Navy nuclear submarines is zero. I do not think that the other side could make that claim. It is important always to remember that, because a lot of nonsense is talked about this issue. Again, in this decision we are very safe.

Does the noble Lord agree that what has happened is a stark example of why we need four boats to maintain continuous at-sea deterrents, because of unforeseen and unexpected things? Does he also agree that it is a very good reason why there should be no further delay whatever in terms of introducing the next, replacement deterrent submarines?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, that is a lot to absorb but I agree very much with what the noble Lord said. As a former First Sea Lord, he was well aware of the success of CASD. He said that these are very sophisticated bits of kit. I understand that nuclear-powered submarines are the most sophisticated kit that humans have ever made. I assure him that safety is always uppermost in our minds even if it is expensive. He also mentioned the Scottish issue. Since 1963, the Ministry of Defence has operated more than 80 nuclear reactor cores without accident. As he said, nuclear-powered submarines remain the best way to deliver our nuclear deterrent. We should not allow a vested interest to derail the defence of our nation by manipulating today’s decision. The nuclear deterrent remains the ultimate guarantor of our nation’s security.

The noble Lord, Lord West, also asked about four boats. That decision will be made in 2016. I assure him that there is no delay in the programme.

Scottish Independence: Faslane

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 3rd March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am sorry to disappoint my noble friend but I do not have any costs on the alternatives with me. I will check on them and write to my noble friend.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, it seems that it is a dereliction of duty not to be looking at alternatives on such an important issue. We all know that our ability to defend our islands, should Scotland separate, will be dramatically reduced. Whatever happens, should they separate, there will be huge costs for our defence budget. Does the Minister agree that the real special relationship with the United States is the nuclear and intelligence relationship? Even this speculation is damaging that. Does he agree that in a nuclear alliance—the NATO alliance—our withdrawing part of the NATO deterrent, effectively unilaterally, will be something that causes huge damage?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the United Kingdom Government are not planning for Scottish independence and cannot pre-negotiate the details of independence ahead of the referendum. To start planning now for a United Kingdom without Scotland would be to start to unpick the fabric of the UK before people in Scotland have had their say and would require UK Ministers to prioritise the interests of one part of the United Kingdom over those of others. In the event of a vote to leave the UK, the referendum would mark the beginning of a lengthy and complex set of negotiations between the Scottish and UK Governments.

Armed Forces: Widows’ Pensions

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Tuesday 21st January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

I am afraid that I am not sighted on the parliamentary pension fund. However, we are sympathetic to the concerns of the Forces Pension Society and the War Widows Association of Great Britain. The NHS, teachers, police and fire services’ scheme administrators were consulted last year and highlighted their concerns. Should the MoD accede to the retrospective change, the Government Actuary’s Department confirmed that, if all public sector schemes were to change their rules to accommodate this, the cost would be in the region of £3 billion over a 40-year period—the NHS cost alone would amount to about £1 billion.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I believe that the armed services are different and it is shameful that we cannot look at this. When Governments look at something like this and decide to do something, as the noble Lord says, they can do it. It is appalling that we have people policing these women—and they are generally women—who are now wanting to remarry to live with someone and who will probably have to have a worse standard of living. Certainly, if I died, I would want my wife to have a happy second life. It is appalling and we should do something about it. Can that not be done?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, this is done to protect the taxpayer.

Ministry of Defence: IT Systems

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Tuesday 14th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, obviously, we will look at that very closely. It is very easy to be wise with the benefit of hindsight.

I failed to answer various questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. He asked me how many Armed Forces personnel will return. I think that I answered that—the Army will be sending in 1,000 regulars to help on the ground with recruiting both the regulars and the reserves. He asked what the effect would be on recruitment, which is a question that I myself asked; the answer is that it is too early to say. How late will the project be? There will be a two-year delay before the full operating capability of the new programme is reached. The IT is due to be up and running in February 2015.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, surely the fundamental, terrible error was, as the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, said, to stop using the old system. We took out the people who actually make young men and women want to join the Army. They want to see a bluff NCO with a chest full of medals talking about the Army, not some Capita or “Crapita” person talking to them from behind a computer. As I understand it, 800 regulars who were doing that job were removed and now we are putting 1,000 back in. Does the Minister agree that that was the fundamental error?

Afghanistan: Interpreters

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Tuesday 10th December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, since June 2013, 116 cases of intimidation have been reported to the intimidation investigation unit. The IIU investigates claims of intimidation, and an in-theatre decision panel assesses the claim and appropriate response level, depending on the risk to the LEC. The MoD’s labour support unit can confirm that, so far as it is aware, in Afghanistan there have been no deaths of serving LE staff that can be directly linked to intimidation.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, why have the Government been so on the back foot over this issue? The numbers of people involved are minuscule compared with the immigration figures that we have to look at. Other countries are treating people who act as interpreters far better than we do, so I cannot understand why we are so on the back foot. Where is our generosity of spirit? This will affect us in future operations around the world. It is difficult to understand who in government is stopping this happening.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we are not on the back foot. The intimidation policy has been reviewed, and will be kept under review as appropriate, to ensure that it provides a robust and responsive means for addressing concerns appropriately. This will take account of the current security threat and the lessons learnt from handling cases and consultations with local staff. I have a list of what other countries—our allies—do, and it is very much along the same lines as what we do. I am very happy to write to the noble Lord with information on that.

Defence: Type 26 Global Combat Ship

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 2nd December 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the expected build rate and planned life for the T26 global combat ship.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con)]

My Lords, the Type 26 global combat ship programme is currently in its assessment phase. As is standard practice with equipment projects, the final design, equipment fit and build programme will not be set until the main investment decision has been taken, when the design is more mature. This decision is expected towards the end of 2014. Our current planning assumption is for the construction of 13 Type 26s with a planned service life of around 25 years.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the reply, and for letting me have sight of it before today. He will be aware of the force-level formula which relates build rates to the planned life of a warship. Although this Answer undoubtedly raises a whole raft of questions, not least those relating to manpower and shipbuilding, I want to focus on just one. Have we really decided that this great maritime nation of ours needs only 13 frigates? Only four years ago, 18 was considered too risky; at the time of the Falklands, we had 40. Has there been a realistic, in-depth study of the requirement for the number of frigates—I am talking about frigates, not destroyers or other things—or is the number 13 based purely on an arbitrary cost figure? In the final analysis, defence of the nation is the top priority for any Government of whatever hue, and I believe that we are standing into danger.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that defence of the nation is absolutely the top priority of the Government. That is why we are undertaking the Type 26 global combat ship programme. The Type 26 will become the backbone of the Royal Navy from around 2020, and the programme will help sustain surface warship capability in the United Kingdom after the construction of the carriers. This multibillion-pound investment will secure thousands of skilled shipbuilding jobs across the UK for decades to come.

Armed Forces: Territorial Army

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 18th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that the Chief of the General Staff is doing a very good job. I have considerable briefing on the question that the noble and gallant Lord and the noble Lord raised on SMEs and national insurance. It will take me some time to find it—but I will write to the noble Lord. We have always expected there to be a dip in the level of the reserves before they increase as we are changing the fitness requirements and deployability of the force. To reassure the noble Lord, a target of 30,000 trained Army reservists is well within historical norms. We had 72,000 trained reservists as recently as 1990.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, is not the real problem that we are spending far too little on defence? At this moment, we have HMS “Daring” doing a grand job in the Philippines, but it is one of only 19 destroyers and frigates.

Is it possible to put more money into the cadet forces? They do a wonderful job by taking youngsters off the streets, looking after them, encouraging them and growing them; and 30% of them end up as NCOs in our forces.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises an important point which I will take back to my department. I agree with what he said about the cadets. I was patron of my local sea cadets and I am well aware of the good work that they do.

Defence: Aircraft Carriers and UK Shipbuilding

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Wednesday 6th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, I am saddened but not surprised by the tone of this announcement. My main reason for that is that there is not a single mention of strategic or operational requirements. My noble friend Lord Rosser mentioned that the Statement said that the Government looked at this and asked whether it would cost more to cancel the carriers than to build them. I would absolutely hope that the reason we build something like a carrier is that we need them for our nation’s security, which we do. There is no reflection of that anywhere in the Statement, or of the sovereign requirement for a shipbuilding capability. We do not build ships for admirals to play with in the bath; there is actually a requirement for them. That is why we do it. Was there any discussion in the National Security Council, of any length—I would like to know how long, if the Minister can tell me—about the strategic requirement for a sovereign shipbuilding capability within this country? It is widely understood that the 19 escorts, which is all we have, are too few in number. Therefore, we will hopefully at some stage start to build more. Is one building stream in Scotland enough to cover that? I do not think that it is. Has this been debated and looked at? It certainly was not touched upon in this paper.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we must face up to the fact that the coalition Government inherited a much smaller Navy from the noble Lord’s Government. On the operational requirements, the First Sea Lord came to see me this morning and has offered to brief Peers on how he sees these carriers being used. I quite agree with the noble Lord, Lord West, that we need the carriers. They are built to be used.

Armed Forces: Human Rights Legislation

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Wednesday 23rd October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we are concerned that the Supreme Court judgment creates uncertainties in the law that could well impair the ability of the Armed Forces to make robust and timely decisions which are necessary to our national defence. We intend to defend these combat-related claims rigorously.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister not think that this is another example of a number of cases where people are looking at combat through the prism of peacetime? We have seen some extraordinary decisions made in coroners’ courts. We have seen some extraordinary things come out about Bloody Sunday, and we are seeing an extraordinary position as regards the issue being discussed today; I agree totally with the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, on the subject. Is it not important that we should get the message across that combat is different? A number of us in this Chamber have been in combat and we know that decisions are made in a matter of minutes, if not seconds. People around you are either dying or are in fear of dying and sometimes information is very scant, whereas those with all of the information are taking hours and hours on a warm and balmy afternoon to come to decisions about our military. When we talk about the military covenant, in the end the most important for our military is to be given the ability and the tools to actually fight and win. All of these things are negating that ability.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I agree with every word that the noble Lord has said and welcome the opportunity to discuss the issue in much greater detail on 7 November during the debate tabled by my noble friend Lord Faulks.

Ministry of Defence: Dogs

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 14th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am very happy to look at that. The situation in this country is that the decision to put a dog to sleep is taken by a veterinary officer and only after all possible avenues have been exhausted. From 2010 to June 2013, sadly, 300 dogs had to be put down, and the reasons for this included injury, illness and age-related welfare reasons. As I have said, those cases were looked at by veterinary officers and the decision was taken only as a last resort.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that we have a good track record in this country of looking after animals within the military? I am sure he will be interested to hear that when we did Options for Change at the beginning of the 1990s, our one study into animals within the forces, known colloquially as the Winalot study, discovered, to the surprise of the Navy, that Army and Air Force dogs had a higher per diem rate for food than officers and men within the Royal Navy.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, that is a very interesting question and I will consider it closely.

Armed Forces: Human Rights

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Tuesday 25th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, with regard to making the MoD more cautious, looking around the House I can see noble Lords and noble and gallant Lords who, in their time, had to take very difficult operational decisions on land, at sea and in the air. I am sure that they would agree that we must ensure that commanders have the confidence to take decisions that often must be made in the heat of combat to obtain their objective with the least possible loss of life.

As for the equipment, the most important priority is the protection of our troops. Since this litigation started, the wide range of protective vehicles, including Mastiff, Ridgeback, Husky, Wolfhound, Jackal and Foxhound, have been available to commanders to match the most appropriate available vehicle to a specific task, based on the assessment of operational risk. Every effort is made to bring troops’ kit up to spec for the job they do and continuously to update it as technology advances.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, 31 years ago my ship was bombed and sunk close inshore in the Falkland Islands during the amphibious landings, and its AA weapons systems were totally inadequate in the position in which it was placed. I knew that, as the commanding officer, and my task group commander knew that, but it is the duty of military men to fight the war they are in with the equipment they have. It is clearly a total nonsense that one can use human rights legislation to go against that. Indeed, if we had not done that, we would not have won that war. Will the Minister not agree that it is totally bonkers to apply this sort of legislation to war?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord rightly raises the issue that we are grappling with at the moment.

Armed Forces: Redundancies

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Thursday 20th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I think I covered the question of morale in my previous answer. As to redundancies in the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force, in tranche 1, 2,800 personnel—just over 1,000 Royal Navy, 920 Army and 920 RAF—were selected for redundancy, of which 62% were applicants. In tranche 2 of the Armed Forces redundancy programme, 3,760 personnel—165 Royal Navy, 2,880 Army and 750 RAF—were selected for redundancy. Achieving the reductions required to bring the Regular Army to a strength of 82,000 is expected to require a further redundancy tranche, which may also include medical personnel of the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force. However, at this point, no decision on this has been taken.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, the Minister is aware that the Chief of the General Staff and the Secretary of State for Defence are both on record as saying that any further cuts would dramatically impact on our military capability. All of us who have any knowledge of the MoD know that there is insufficient funding for Future Force 2020, to which the Minister referred. Notwithstanding this and assuming that there will be further cuts, have we conducted a detailed analysis—rather like the highly regarded global strategy paper that was produced—looking at the true impact of these forced reductions on our Armed Forces’ ability to conduct the military operations that our nation has a right to expect of them?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, on the first part of the noble Lord’s question, as he would expect, I agree with the Secretary of State. On the issue of detailed analysis, as the noble Lord knows there are some very bright people in the Ministry of Defence and I can assure him that endless meetings are taking place to discuss the way forward.

Royal Navy: Escort Vessels

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 17th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his compliment about the carefully crafted response. SDSR set out how the Government would secure Britain in an age of uncertainty. Central to this is maintaining the trade routes and access to resources and protecting United Kingdom citizens, territory and trade from terrorism, piracy and unlawful restrictions on freedom of navigation. My noble friend mentioned Crow’s Nest. The final assessment phase was approved in January and is due to come into service in 2020, with a deployable capability shortly afterwards. Navy Command and Defence Equipment and Support is exploring whether funding can be made available sooner, to bring forward the in-service date by up to two years.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, the Minister, for whom I have great admiration, knows that we have insufficient escort hulls and need more. Nineteen are simply insufficient for our nation and paying off four Type 22 escorts in the strategic defence and security review—since when £12 billion of underspend has been created—was a terrible error. However, one must not dwell on these mistakes of the past. Does the Minister not agree that the £250 million per annum that we will pay BAE Systems not to build warships should perhaps be used to build escorts?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I cannot comment on what the noble Lord says about BAE. However, I compliment him on his resolute lobbying for the Royal Navy to attend the Royal Australian Navy’s 100th anniversary. The noble Lord has had a word with me two or three times about it. I can now assure him that the Royal Navy has responded to his request and will attend the 100th anniversary. HMS “Daring”, a Type 45 destroyer, will also be out there.

Afghanistan: Interpreters

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Wednesday 27th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, 24 LECs have been killed while working for UK forces and 122 have been injured since 2006. As I said, we are in close contact with our NATO allies about how to take this matter forward.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, the Minister must, I am sure, believe that this is weasel wording and not good enough. How we behave towards these people is a question of trust and honour and this really is not good enough. It gives a very bad message for any of our forces in future operations about whether people should help them. We have to move forward rather faster and more certainly on this issue.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

As I said, my Lords, we will not abandon these people. It is a very complex subject. I have met a number of these people, as I am sure a number of other noble Lords have, in Afghanistan, and this relates not only to interpreters but also to people with other skills. Not all of them want to come to this country. Afghans are a proud people and some want to stay and use their language skills to help their country. If possible, we want to help them to do that. The Afghans will not thank us for removing some of their most able people.

Armed Forces: Autonomous Weapon Systems

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Tuesday 26th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I cannot answer the first part of the noble Lord’s question, but I will write to him about that. As I said in my original Answer, these issues are very carefully considered, and what the noble Lord suggested is unlikely to happen.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, the Minister slightly confused me with one of his answers. Will he confirm that for anti-missile, close range anti-aircraft, and anti-torpedo reaction systems, there is considerable merit in going for an autonomous system, even if it has a manual override? From what he said it sounds as though we are not continuing to develop that capability. Is that correct?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, in essence, an automatic system reacts to a limited number of external stimuli in the same way each time, just as automatic transmission changes gears when a car gets to a certain speed. Fully autonomous systems rely on a certain level of artificial intelligence for making high-level decisions from a very complex environmental input, the result of which might not be fully predictable at a very detailed level. However, let us be absolutely clear that the operation of weapons systems will always—always—be under human control.

Armed Forces: Pay

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Wednesday 20th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I said that the decision is in line with the Commissioner for Public Appointments’ Code of Practice for Ministerial Appointments to Public Bodies. The Government believe that the habit of automatically renewing those appointments has to stop. We need to bring fresh blood into jobs such as these.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on the Government’s decision to send HMS “Daring” to Australia for the centenary of the Australian Navy. That leaves us with 18 escorts for the rest of the world. Does not the Minister agree that 18 is far too few and that we need to get going on the order for the Type 26 ship?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord has used great imagination to bring HMS “Daring” into this Question. I have been preparing for the X-factor this afternoon, not HMS “Daring”.

Armed Forces: Redundancies

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Tuesday 22nd January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, my noble friend makes a very good point. We prepare for events, and we are confident that we can handle most things that are thrown at us. Certainly, the National Security Council is meeting as we speak and considering the situation in Mali. I am confident that we can prepare for any eventuality.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, did the National Security Council review the strategic defence and security review 2010 in the light of the Arab awakening, the Libya crisis et cetera? If it did, did it then agree that there should be a further £1.3 billion cut in the defence budget, which is, in fact, what has happened?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, it is my understanding that the National Security Council meets on a very regular basis and considers every eventuality, but it is not for it to decide the cuts. They are a matter for the Treasury.

Armed Forces: Future Size

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever)]

My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, for introducing this timely debate. It is clear that on all sides of the House we share respect for the determination, professionalism and bravery of our Armed Forces.

The noble Lord is correct that the welfare needs of our service personnel are, and will remain, a key priority—a duty that we extend to our veterans as well. The Armed Forces have long-standing structures in place to support service families, including welfare officers, trained social workers and other specialists. Under the Armed Forces covenant, the Government have made good progress on improving the care that we provide—for example, by doubling council tax relief to £600 per six-month deployment and ensuring that Armed Forces compensation scheme payments are excluded from means-tested social benefits.

There is much that we are doing with regard to veterans. The Armed Forces mental health strategy enables the co-ordination of policy, and focuses efforts and resources where they are most needed. We have also ensured that veterans will be given priority treatment on the NHS for all service-related conditions.

We work hard to ensure that our service personnel transition smoothly back to civilian employment. All personnel are entitled to assistance through this process. The single services, in partnership with Right Management, work with service leaders to deliver a range of practical assistance, including training and assistance with recruitment. My noble friend Lord Ashcroft, the Prime Minister’s special representative for veterans’ transition, will be reviewing current processes, and we look forward to his recommendations.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, made reference to the annual report on the Armed Forces covenant, which was notified to Parliament last month by means of a Written Ministerial Statement. I warmly welcome the interest in this House in the Armed Forces covenant, and would welcome the chance to debate it should the opportunity arise.

The noble Lord also asked whether Armed Forces advocates had been appointed from all parts of the United Kingdom. I can confirm that there are now Armed Forces advocates in the devolved authorities of Wales and Scotland. Both Wales and Scotland have produced their own commitment papers on how they will implement the covenant, as well as contributing to the Secretary of State’s statutory report. An Armed Forces advocate has not been appointed by the Northern Ireland Executive, as their strict equalities legislation means that implementation of the covenant is more complicated.

Additionally, many local authorities in England, Wales and Scotland have appointed local Armed Forces advocates or champions as part of their commitment to the community covenant, working with local communities to improve access to services and support for serving and ex-service men and women and their families. Relevant UK government departments also have Armed Forces advocates, all of whom are represented on the Covenant Reference Group and are responsible for making sure that their departmental policies uphold the principles of the covenant.

As the noble Lord explained, we live in an uncertain world. As such, we need to ensure we have the capabilities to adapt and address a very broad range of challenges. The NSS and the SDSR made a number of strategic choices: to support the deficit reduction programme; to seek to maintain the UK’s international profile; and to honour our operational commitments in Afghanistan. They remain at the heart of this Government’s approach to foreign, defence and national resilience policies. The NSS also acknowledged the uncertainty of the future strategic environment, and the SDSR responded by prioritising those capabilities across government that will allow us to adapt to changes as they happen.

The noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord West, and my noble friend Lord Palmer all mentioned carrier strike. We will have planes. We will have the B variant of the Joint Strike Fighter—the STOVL variant—which, as the noble Lord, Lord West, knows flew very successfully off the USS “Wasp” in November 2011.

In the SDSR the Government confirmed our belief that it is correct for the United Kingdom to retain, in the long-term, a carrier-strike capability. In the short term, however, there are few circumstances we can envisage where the ability to deploy air power from the sea will be essential. That is why we reluctantly took the decision to retire the Harriers and Invincible-class carriers before the new carriers become operational. We did not take this decision lightly, but did so mindful of the current strategic context in which we live. The decision on the second carrier will be one for the next SDSR after the general election.

The Middle East remains a significant source of instability. One immediate risk, as noble Lords said—

[Lord West of Spithead]

Just on a point of clarity, the Secretary of State said that it was an aspiration of this Government that they would run two carriers although the final decision had not been made. Is that the correct decision?

Armed Forces: Medical Services

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 10th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, several initiatives are under way to remove duplication by the single services’ medical services. The first, scheduled to be delivered on 1 April next year, is the new defence primary healthcare project. The current Royal Navy, Army and Air Force primary healthcare systems will start to combine to form defence primary healthcare under the command of a two-star medical officer. The aim is to develop and create an organisation made up of Royal Navy, Army, Royal Air Force and civilian medical personnel working jointly to benefit all the patients they serve, to safeguard the quality of healthcare for military personnel, their dependents and entitled civilians, and to maximise the forces’ generation capabilities.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I agree with the Minister about the huge pride we have in our medical forces across the board. Not only are they at the cutting edge of skills to look after people who, very sadly, have suffered major injuries, but they have also shown immense bravery. Indeed, two women who are probably about half my height have managed to win Military Crosses in the past three years in looking after people for whom they were responsible. We should feel a huge debt of gratitude and pride in them all for that. We also have an amazing centre of skill at Birmingham and at Headley Court in terms of people recovering. Will the Minister tell us what will happen if Scotland separates? Bearing in mind the complexity of how this works, it will be extremely difficult. How will that work out?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord in the first part of his question. I have seen a number of these reservists and regulars several times in the hospital at Camp Bastion. I am in awe of what they do and the lives they save—it is amazing work. In answer to the noble Lord’s second question, we do not envisage that this is going to happen.

Future Reserves 2020

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Thursday 8th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I join my noble friend in the tributes to the two servicemen he mentioned. Like him, I am in awe of the work that the Special Boat Service does. I compliment my noble friend on all the work that he does for the SBS Association. He asked me about incentives for regulars to become reservists. All three services are working to make it as quick and easy as possible for individuals leaving the Regular Forces to join the reserves. This includes simplifying administrative processes, examining the use of incentives and ensuring coherent communications so that individuals who are leaving the Regular Forces, or have left, are aware of the opportunities that exist in the reserves, should they choose to enlist. No decisions have yet been made on the shape of any incentives.

The Armed Forces covenant seeks to ensure that service personnel are not disadvantaged as a result of their service. The covenant recognises reservists. Obligations for reservists very rarely constitute a problem. On the previous occasion I was in Afghanistan I met a number of reservists and regulars. All the regulars to whom I spoke said that reservists were just the same as them—they were not treated differently and mucked in just the same as everyone else. However, obviously, once a reservist is mobilised, he is under military law the same as a regular.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I apologise for not being here at the beginning of the Statement. I ran to get here but I am not as fast as I was when I was a young officer. I welcome the thrust of what the Government are doing but share the very real concerns I have heard relating to commerce, industry and various firms. I would like to ask a couple of questions. Given the contents of the Green Paper, will there be full and comprehensive meetings with various firms and no coercive legislation to make firms provide reservists, as I think that would be extremely counterproductive?

My other point concerns the cost of reservists. I have had a lot to do with the Americans in this regard. Reservists are not as cheap as one might think when one starts using them regularly. I hope the Government will look very carefully at this because reservists can often cost more than regulars. If that is the case, perhaps it is better to use regulars.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a good point. Our relationship with employers is obviously key to this. The Green Paper sets out a series of questions to employers which will help us to chart the way forward. I very much hope that the noble Lord will contribute to this process, particularly any thoughts he has on the United States example that he mentioned. In addition to the Green Paper, we will host a number of national and regional events to discuss specific issues with public sector and private sector employers. The closing date for this consultation is, from memory, 18 January next year.

Armed Forces: Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Wednesday 7th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend on his second point. It is a very good example of volunteering. As for my noble friend’s first point, the feedback from the public has been extremely positive. Many people have expressed their gratitude to the members of the Armed Forces who made the Games such a resounding success. Indeed, at the Ministry of Defence we have received many letters that praised the professionalism, effort and huge contribution from the Armed Forces.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, does the Minister not agree that this highlights the dangers of privatisation in certain areas that are fundamental to UK security? Does he not believe that the GOCO arrangements for the defence equipment and support areas might put us in a position where a failure by private enterprise actually puts service personnel and the security of the nation at risk?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I do not want to be tempted by the noble Lord to go down that route. We will be able to debate that when we get to that point.

Armed Forces: Military Corrective Training Centre

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Wednesday 25th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am grateful for the positive response from my noble friend. The programme of educational courses and military training that detainees undertake reinvigorates them with the military ethos. On return to their units, the vast majority go on to achieve promotion and to have a successful military career. Direct comparison with the civil sector is difficult because those in Her Majesty’s Prison Service have committed criminal offences, while the majority of those at MCTC have committed non-criminal conduct offences. However, last year 13% of detainees at MCTC had previously served periods of detention whereas some 90% of those sentenced in England and Wales in Her Majesty’s Prison Service had offended before.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, does the Minister not agree that the statistics are even better than that because quite a lot of people sent to Colchester serve time there and are then sent for discharge, so of those who are able to go back the percentage is even higher?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very good point. Indeed, the latest report from Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons is exceptionally positive and has graded the centre as good for its four tests of a healthy custodial environment: safety, respect, purposeful activity and resettlement—something that it very rarely does.

Armed Forces: Discrimination

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, my noble friend makes a very good point. The problem exists not just in the present but in the future. I entirely agree with him.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, the worst discrimination I ever suffered was shortly after meeting my wife, when she told me that the two most useless things in a sailing boat are an umbrella and a naval officer. Joking aside, the Minister referred to education. We need to educate young people about the importance of the services and one of the best ways of doing that is the cadet forces. Are we going to put more effort into getting CCF and other units into a broader spectrum of schools to try to encourage this?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that question. The answer is yes, we are working very hard on that and we may have more to say on the issue in the days to come.

Defence Budget

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 14th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, after 25 years of serving at sea and then serving in the madhouse—I am sorry, I should have said the MoD—I share the view of the noble Lord, Lord King, and the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, about the difficulties associated with contracts. I worry that it is not that easy to stay within costs, and there is an awful lot of smoke and mirrors as well. I hope that the projections are true, but I have real doubts about them. I also share the view that defence is so important for the nation that we should try wherever possible to be cross-party in our approach to it.

Looking at the 10-year timeline for PR12, am I right in assuming that the money for the replacement of the V class submarines, which will be coming to its big spend at the end of that period, is being allowed for in the figures that have been given in this Statement? This morning, at the EIS summit, the right honourable Member for Runnymede and Weybridge spoke very strongly about the need for deterrence.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that we have a new team in the MoD who, as I have seen with my own eyes, are absolutely on top of this issue and will do their very best to make sure that this plan is properly carried out. On submarines, as confirmed in the SDSR, the MoD is committed to delivering seven Astute-class submarines, at a cost of approximately £10 million. In order for the UK to continue as a nuclear power, the MoD is committed to delivering continuous at-sea deterrent. The MoD has started the £3 billion assessment phase for the £25 billion successor programme to deliver long-term CASD.

Defence: Carrier Strike Capability

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Thursday 10th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, taking my noble friend’s second question first, I can reassure her on that point. I have had a number of discussions with the French military at all levels, and am very keen on pushing our relations with it. As for the chiefs giving their support, I understand that they all put their support in writing to No. 10. I cannot answer now the question about the advice that the Secretary of State received in 2010, but my noble friend might want to have a word with the noble and gallant Lord afterwards.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, this is clearly the correct decision, but I have two questions for the Minister. The first continues the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lee. The decision that had been taken before was that we were going to have STOVL and run two carriers. Looking at this Statement in detail, it is not at all clear that we are really going to run two carriers. It would be dreadful if, after all this going round in circles like an oozlum bird for two years, we end up with only one carrier running. I hope that we can be more positive about the fact that we will run two in order to ensure that we have a carrier 100% of the time, because that is good for the nation and for the defence of this country.

My second point runs on from that. Perhaps the Minister could get across to the Secretary of State, and to the rest of his Front Bench, that this is good news. We have a 65,000-tonne ship because if you surge 26 Joint Strike Fighters, of whatever variant, it has to be that size. It is not because some admiral woke up and thought, “Gosh, I’ll have a big ship”. It is done for a reason. We should be very proud that this nation is building two of them. Let us get a bit of whoomph and say, “Right, we’ve made a decision, this is a fantastic thing, tens of thousands of people are working producing these things and they will protect and look after our nation for 50 years”.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the second carrier is, as I said, an aspiration and we very much hope it will be possible. We will certainly always have one carrier at sea. The decision on the second one will have to wait until 2015, but it is our aspiration that it is going to happen. As for the noble Lord’s point about it being a good news story, of course it is a good news story and we are very proud of British industry. I was up in Rosyth and Govan a couple of weeks ago and saw the work. I am enormously proud of what we are producing up there.

Armed Forces : Legal Representation

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Wednesday 25th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I absolutely agree with every word that my noble friend said.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord will agree that we are very lucky in this country to have some amazing men and women volunteering and serving as reservists. However, is it not a huge risk to assume that reservists can fulfil on a very large scale the tasks that are done by regulars? With the current reduction in Regular Forces and increased reliance on reservists, this will be a major problem militarily.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we are not assuming that they will fulfil the role of the Regular Forces. That is not the case at all.

Armed Forces: Afghanistan

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 23rd January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am sorry that my noble friend thinks that it was not a very full answer. I did say that we are in full discussions with our American allies, and I do not think that I can add anything to that.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, will we be asked to provide any aviation support post 2014?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I know that the Afghans have helicopters which have been very effective. They were deployed in direct support of troops recently in a very effective way.

Armed Forces: Afghanistan and Libya

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, my noble friend makes a very important point about the reserves of our allied countries. I am afraid I do not have an answer to hand but I will certainly write to him on this and give him a detailed answer.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, a number of us were dismayed that a relatively simple campaign like the one in Libya could not have been conducted by the European members of NATO but needed American enablers. Will the Prime Minister, when he visits and has his dialogue with France very soon, be raising the issue that there needs to be a slight increase in defence as a percentage of GDP among all the European NATO nations, including ourselves?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very important point. Having said that, co-operation between the United Kingdom and France, both militarily and at the political level, has been exemplary and contributed significantly in Libya towards developing the level of co-operation and interoperability envisaged in the UK/France defence co-operation treaty that was signed in November 2010.

Baha Mousa Inquiry

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Thursday 8th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the noble Viscount makes a very important point and I quite agree with him. The ability to seek and obtain intelligence from detainees is too important but we will always seek to ensure that it is done within the constraints of the Geneva conventions. The UK Armed Forces are at all times subject to English criminal law. MoD policy reflects applicable international law, including prohibitions on torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I apologise for not being here at the beginning of the Statement. It has been said that today is a sad day, but I have to say that I feel extremely proud of being in a nation that allows such an all-embracing report to be produced. I am extremely proud of being a member of the Armed Forces of this nation where the vast majority of them perform amazingly and with all the constraints that they should in very difficult circumstances. Does the Minister agree that I should feel that way?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I quite agree with the noble Lord and feel very proud to be a Minister at this time. I congratulate the previous Government on what they did to initiate this report; as the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, said, the Army has been very open in the way in which it has followed up on these terrible deeds.

Defence Transformation

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 18th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his support. We inherited a very difficult situation; it was not perfect. We tried to do the very best we could under the circumstances. I did not feel comfortable with a lot of the cuts, but under the financial circumstances, we had no alternative.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the Statement. It is highly complicated and will take a lot of study before one can give very sensible comments on it. In general terms, I have no doubt that we need a greater increase in defence spending and I would hope that both sides of the House felt that was appropriate in the future. I am very supportive of the withdrawal from Germany—it should have happened previously; it has cost us a huge amount of money having those forces there. I like the basing of the marines down in the south-west. My question is brief, just for clarity. The Statement said:

“I can now give the go ahead for … the cat and traps for the Queen Elizabeth class carriers”.

Cats and traps is shorthand for catapults and arrester wires. Do I assume, because the Statement seems to say it, that we are intending to put catapults and arrester wires on the “Queen Elizabeth” and the “Prince of Wales”?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that this is a very complicated issue which will take a lot of study. I am very happy to organise further briefings for noble Lords if they would like on any particular issue, be it on the reserves or basing or anything else. I am grateful that the noble Lord supports the increase in spending, albeit of 1 per cent, which will enable us to do quite a lot. I can confirm that the cats and traps will be for one carrier—at the moment, we do not know which one it is. Whether to equip the other carrier with them will be a decision for the 2015 SDSR.

Afghanistan

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 11th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, when the US finishes ground-force combat operations in Afghanistan, which it clearly intends to do by the end of 2014, will it still be providing air support and, if it is, will NATO be providing air support? If so, will the United Kingdom be involved in that and, if it is, will it be based at an air base in Afghanistan?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the Prime Minister has stated clearly that there will not be significant numbers of British troops in a combat role in Afghanistan by 2015. However, we still expect to have some troops there after 2015—for instance at the officer training academy—as part of the enduring NATO and bilateral partnership, at the request of the Afghan Government. The exact size and role of this commitment will be developed over time, taking account of conditions, military advice and the broader security and political considerations.

Armed Forces: Foreign Pilot Training

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 20th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, Royal Air Force and Royal Navy pilots have for a number of years undertaken carrier training with our allies; and, as my noble friend said, we are currently in discussions with the French and the US navies on future training programmes ahead of the Queen Elizabeth carriers entering service. The Royal Navy currently has two pilots training with the US navy. In addition, the RAF and the Royal Navy have five exchange officers serving in the US navy flying the F/A-18 and AV-8B aircraft. As for the financial arrangements, as discussions are ongoing, the financial arrangements are still being considered.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I do not think that the Minister has, in a sense, answered the sheer complexity of the last question. Being able to operate a large-deck carrier with fast jets is incredibly complicated. I understand that we have a few pilots training with the Americans and the French, but will he please confirm that we are going to establish a focus, a package of training and all the measures attached, rather like we had for the CSSE when we did this with the Polaris programme, so that we can drive from now until the first large-deck carrier is fully operational? By removing the Harriers, it is very difficult. It needs a real focus, and we need to do something like that.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

I can give the noble Lord the information that he wants not just on the pilots but on the whole of the deck-handling operation. We are looking at this very closely with both of our allies.

Libya

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, as I understand it, there is an international stabilisation response team in Benghazi looking at this issue. Of course, the United Kingdom will continue to provide medical and emergency food supplies.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for repeating the Statement. It is clearly quite right that we should review options all the time. It is also worth bearing in mind that we need to get rid of Gaddafi, which needs to be factored into everything that is done. We also need to be very wary. Three helicopters are not enough, if we ever use them. I am afraid that we are misleading people if we lead them to believe that they are not at greater risk than if the fast jets were there. The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, is absolutely right that a proper risk assessment needs to be made. The Minister said that no decision had been made, but it is a slightly strange circumstance that we are in.

My question relates to something about which, as the Minister knows, I feel very strongly. The best aircraft that we had for close air support, having been designed for that purpose, was the GR9. Many of them are sitting in a hangar and the pilots are still current up to the end of June. This is the last-chance saloon for being able to use those aircraft. It is not good enough to say that there is no money, as it is all from contingency funds. A huge amount of contingency money is being spent by the Treasury on getting the GR4 “fleet within a fleet” up to the right level and getting the Typhoon available to deliver a bomb, yet here we have an aircraft designed for the purpose and better than the Apache at it because it is less vulnerable. Will the Government take this opportunity to look again at this matter and perhaps change their decision? If the conflict becomes long and drawn-out, we will need them there to be able to put the right pressure on.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for acknowledging that we are right to review the options and reaffirming the need to get rid of Gaddafi. There is always a risk in using attack helicopters—although, as I have said, we have not made any decision on them. I am afraid that I must disappoint the noble Lord by saying that we have no plans to look again at the use of the Harriers.

Armed Forces Covenant

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 16th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, that is where the external reference group comes in. It brings together representatives from across Whitehall, key service charities such as the Royal British Legion and SSAFA, the three Families Federations and representatives from the academic world. It delivers an independent judgment on the Government's efforts in supporting the Armed Forces community. I mentioned earlier Professor Hew Strachan, who is a member of the ERG which is chaired by Chris Wormald from the Cabinet Office.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement today. I agree that he has shown great support for the Armed Forces, and I know that he has found it very difficult. When I fought in the Falklands, in my naivete I felt that in the final analysis my country would look after my wife and children if things went wrong. I did not believe that a covenant was necessary. I am generally pleased that there is a covenant, but I will not be sure until I read the detail.

What I did know in the Falklands was that the capability of the weapons systems, and the sheer number of units involved, were more important to me than almost anything else. The document states that all Governments have no higher duty than defence of the realm. I do not believe that in terms of funding over the past year, the MoD has taken the top priority for spending. Will the Minister confirm that bearing in mind articles such as that today in the Times, and the fact that more money is being looked for, defence will now take the top priority among all departments for spending?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we will certainly keep all the other departments up to speed on this. As the noble Lord said, for years Governments have talked of supporting the military, tending to focus largely on what it spends on equipment. I can assure the House that the Armed Forces covenant is about our obligations as a society to our military personnel.

Defence: Military Commitments

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 4th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the Prime Minister has been very clear that the defence budget will have to increase in real terms beyond the current spending review period to deliver the Future Force 2020 structure set out in the SDSR. Our aim over the next four years will be to put our forces in a position to reach that ambition, given real growth in the later part of the decade. However, we cannot guarantee what the budget will be under the next Government. Spending post-2015 will be a matter for a new spending review and the next SDSR. Until then, the department will need to plan carefully for those new commitments that will entail significant additional expenditure beyond 2015.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, it is quite clear how uncomfortable the Minister feels about giving these answers. When the Minister looks at events across the whole Middle East, the ratcheting up of tension off the Falklands with statements made about oil prospecting, tension in Korea and the ongoing war in Afghanistan, is he really saying that the NSC will not put its slide rule over the strategic defence and security review? Everything that has happened must mean that there have to be changes. I cannot believe that this will not be looked at. Is the Minister saying that this will not be looked at by the NSC?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, of course we all want more money for defence. However, if we have financial difficulties in the MoD, we know where they came from. We went 12 years without a proper defence review. We are spending £120 million every day just to pay off the interest on the previous Government's debt. Every department must make its own contribution to deficit reduction, and the MoD is no exception. We have to put the economy on the right track for the sake of our national security, and across government we will do it as a team.

Great War: Centenary Commemoration

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Tuesday 22nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we are aware that other countries are also starting to think about this. We have already had some contact with the Governments of France, Belgium, New Zealand and Australia. Indeed, my right honourable friend the Minister for Defence Personnel, Welfare and Veterans discussed the issue with the Australian high commissioner last week. As for taking part in other nations’ commemorations, we will be keeping in close contact with them about their plans and we should, as far as possible and where appropriate, link with them in combined commemorations to mark the key anniversaries.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a trustee of the Imperial War Museum. I am pleased to hear that things are moving ahead, but the impression that one has gained, having looked at this in great detail, is that there is a danger of us being caught on the back foot. Who will be the person responsible for driving this forward? There is stuff going on across the Commonwealth, particularly in the Dominions, and across the EU and Russia. There is a whole raft of things that do not seem to be joined together. It would be dreadful for our nation to be on the back foot on this. Which department will lead to co-ordinate those who are doing this work?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the centenary of the beginning of the First World War is still three years away. As I said earlier, we are in discussions with other departments, the most likely of which is the DCMS. I assure the noble Lord that we in the Ministry of Defence take this matter very seriously.

HMS “Endurance”

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Monday 21st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, the deployment of the new ice patrol ship is a separate issue from that of the security of the Falkland Islands. The permanent maritime presence in the Falklands is provided HMS “Clyde”, the Falkland Islands patrol vessel. The commander of British forces in the Falklands also has at his disposal either a frigate or a destroyer supported by a tanker.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, I have to take issue with the Minister on this. The “Endurance” plays a key part and, indeed, 29 years ago today, almost, we had a bunch of scrap metal dealers going on to some of the Antarctic territories. Therefore to think of it as not part of a cohesive package for the region is wrong. I am glad that the ship is being replaced. It is important that it has the right facilities, and it makes sense to look at the options for the future; I have no difficulty with that. I suppose my final statement is that the Minister referred to HMS “Protector”, which was a net layer, as historic. Since I went on board that ship as a young officer, I find that rather difficult, but I understand the background.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his support regarding HMS “Protector”. On the defence of the Falkland Islands, as the Secretary of State for Defence has said, the situation now is very far removed from that of the early 1980s. First, we maintain a far more robust and capable force in the Falklands to act as a deterrent and to secure our interests there, and that force is able to be reinforced as the need arises. Secondly, Argentina is no longer ruled by a military junta that is repressive at home and aggressive abroad, but of course we maintain robust contingency plans for times of crisis, and there is no questioning our resolve to defend the Falklands whenever required and from whatever quarter.

Armed Forces: Redundancies

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Tuesday 15th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, my question relates to lessons learnt. I was in charge of naval manning in the early part of the 1990s, just after a major redundancy package. All the training pipelines had been shut down, cut or curtailed, and all recruiting had been stopped. All of these things were being done to reduce manpower levels as a result of the then Government’s peace dividend, as it was called. I found it was very hard to kick-start recruiting programmes and training pipelines, and the growth of the economy in the late 1990s led to a net outflow from the service. It was so difficult. My noble friend touched on this, but can the Minister assure the House that we have learnt the lessons—I know they were written down by all three services—and that we are not discarding our seed corn? From what one has seen so far of the pilot thing, it seems that we are discarding seed corn, and I hope it will not happen more generally because, if we are, we are standing into danger of making the same mistakes again.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that of course lessons have been learnt, particularly by the unfortunate person who sent the e-mail. As far as recruiting is concerned, the Armed Forces depend upon high-quality young men and women wanting to join for a rewarding and exciting career. The level of recruiting will be reduced, but I can assure the noble Lord that it will continue.

Defence: Procurement

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Tuesday 25th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, my noble friend makes an interesting point. Defence is hugely important. The more cross-party consensus that we can achieve, the better for our Armed Forces, their families and the defence industry. My door is always open to any Member of the House who has any concerns or observations.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, has the Treasury agreed to 2 per cent year-on year growth in the defence budget post-2015, as the Prime Minister indicated in the other place, to allow Vision 2020 to be met? If not, how on earth can we have a coherent procurement strategy?

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, we will have another defence review in 2015. Of course, the Prime Minister has said that there will need to be real-terms growth in the defence budget in the years beyond the current spending review to make Future Force 2020 affordable.

Armed Forces: Harrier Fleet

Debate between Lord Astor of Hever and Lord West of Spithead

Wednesday 27th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I can give my noble friend that assurance. We are working on that at the moment and we envisage working with our international partners to make that possible.

[Lord West of Spithead]

My Lords, the decision to get rid of the Harriers and not the Tornados is bizarre and wrong. It is the most bonkers decision that I have come across in my 45 years in the military and I can assure this House that I have been privy to some pretty bonkers decisions in that time.

In terms of cost, if we remove the Tornado force, we would be looking at about £7.5 billion by 2018. With the Harriers, we are looking at less than £1 billion. In cost terms it does not make sense. We are told that the Harriers cannot do the job in Afghanistan. That is just not true; they can do it. Indeed, I have spoken to a lot of Army officers over the weekend who say that they very much value the particular capabilities of an aircraft designed for CAS to do that. We are removing a total capability.

This is not a party-political issue; it is crucial to the defence of our nation. I would like the Minister not to give a quick answer but to promise to go away to look at this decision. In terms of cost terms and capability, it absolutely does not make sense. There is nothing wrong in sometimes feeling that one has gone the wrong way. I ask the Minister to ensure that this is looked at again very quickly, because decisions are being made to remove a capability as we speak.

[Lord Astor of Hever]

My Lords, I share the noble Lord’s admiration for the Harriers. We have had to make some very difficult decisions. Noble Lords should be reminded of the legacy that we inherited: a black hole in the defence budget of £38 billion. The last year of the Labour Government in which the noble Lord served saw the overspend in defence increase by £3.3 billion. That is the largest ever recorded increase. The top 15 equipment programmes are £8.8 billion over budget and have a cumulative delay of 32 years.