Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Monday 4th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

This is a Lords starter Bill, yet on the first day in Committee so many government amendments are needed. Surely it would have been better for the Bill to be published when it was in a fit state to be published and then only at that point would the Second Reading and other stages take place.

I have discussed my frustration with the usual channels and we have found a way forward today. I am grateful to the Government Chief Whip for that, but this is no way to proceed generally. I ask the Government Chief Whip to go back, speak to his colleagues in government and government departments and suggest to them that, irrespective of whether a Bill would be generally supported by the whole House or is a more controversial aspect of the Government’s programme, it is unacceptable for it to be brought forward in this state. Every Bill brought forward in this state will have major problems here. The House deserves to be treated with respect, and the handling of the Procurement Bill fails to do that. It is just not what we expect. I ask the Government to look at this again because this Bill will quite rightly have a very difficult time in this House because of the way the House has been treated. I will leave it there. I shall not talk about the Schools Bill, which is in an equally parlous state. I await the Government’s response.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

My Lords, in many respects I completely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy. I apologise to the House, and particularly to some of the government Front-Benchers who were working all weekend, as was my office, who have received the list of amendments. I agree with the noble Lord that this is not the way things should be done. I accept that. It is not totally without precedent, but the fact that it was done before is not a good excuse.

As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Fox, last week, I have taken more than 200 government amendments through and the way we had to do it then and the way we are doing it now is by talking to the usual channels. I am grateful to the noble Lord and the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham. We have decided to stop at the point where there is a particular problem for the Opposition Front Bench so that they have more time to prepare for the group, so we are going to do only the first three groups. It might help the whole House to get the Marshalled List a day earlier so that the majority of the amendments with their numbers would be made available to Members earlier so we would know the order in which they are coming. That would still allow manuscript amendments and other additional amendments later. That can be taken forward in the Procedure Committee.

We will do only three groups today. The usual channels have agreed that that is the way to go forward. I agree with the noble Lord that this is not an ideal way to proceed. I will certainly take the message back to other parts of government. I can only apologise again to him and to the House.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Thursday 28th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

My Lords, on behalf of the Leader and myself, I take this opportunity to thank all noble Lords across the House for their work, especially this week, to conclude consideration of important Bills. I also thank the usual channels for their efforts and collaboration to make sure that, despite our policy differences, the business ran smoothly during what has been a complicated and challenging week.

Most importantly, I thank the staff of the House, who have across the last 11 months supported some very late—and some very early—sittings. As Members, we rely on a huge variety of people to make sure that the House is kept running. While it is always invidious to name specific people, particular thanks this week must go to the Public Bill Office, officials in the Government Whips’ Office and the opposition offices for juggling six Bills, pinging and ponging between the two Houses. Also, for very different reasons, I thank the catering teams for their service well into the night and the clerks and doorkeepers who stay patiently for as long as we do. I think I speak for the whole House in thanking them and all others without whose hard work and dedication the House could not function as it does. I hope they and all noble Lords have a restful Prorogation ahead of the start of the new Session. I beg to move that the House do adjourn during pleasure until Prorogation at 12.20 pm.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord in thanking everyone for their contribution in this Session. This House does an important job in providing scrutiny and challenge to the Government—and solutions, where they are prepared to listen to them. We all need to look carefully and play our part to ensure that our processes and procedures are followed properly at each stage of business when we return in the next Session. I urge the Government that very controversial Bills are not all backloaded in the next Session and are spread out more evenly across it. That would enable much better scrutiny and avoid all these late nights.

Finally, I join the noble Lord in paying tribute to the staff of the House in this Session. We should remember that, when we are in our Recess, they will still be here getting the House ready for the new Session and State Opening of Parliament on 10 May. I wish all Members here a happy, pleasant and joyful Recess. When we return in the new Session, we will take up those challenges again.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Monday 4th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, for allowing me to explain why. One of the reasons I did not do so before was because I wanted to hear these questions—of which I was given advanced warning. I take note of what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, said, as he was a distinguished Chief Whip himself. I have no doubt that things went smoother in his day than they do now. However, we are where we are, and I will do my best.

I should say to the House that, although my noble friend the Leader of the House could not be here—because she is going to a meeting which involves the usual channels and business for the whole House—I also count myself as having responsibilities for the whole House, as well as for my party. So I understand the issue at stake here. In this particular case, this was an agreement with the leaders of the noble Lord’s party and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. In return for having more time than we had allowed for Committee, so that more discussion could be had, it was decided that we would have two days on Report, and that we would also have Third Reading on the same day. This was an agreement between us, and not a question of the Government steamrolling business through the House, as my noble friend Lord Cormack said. In fact, in some ways, I would love to be able to steamroll any business through this House, but, when I start every vote 250 votes behind, I think it is pretty unlikely that I could steamroll much through this House.

The noble Lord made the perfectly valid point that one of the provisions was on the Electoral Commission and its relationship with the Secretary of State. Of course, this is what will come out at Report. There has been plenty of discussion in Committee—in fact, six days of discussion, including some evenings that were quite late—so there has been plenty of talk about that. On Report, noble Lords will be able to vote on exactly that provision, and we will be able to send it back, if necessary, to the other place for Members there to consider it. Not only that, we will then have the opportunity for ping-pong.

In many cases, when we come to the end of a Session, deals are done with the Opposition. They concentrate on the things they think are important, and we schedule the business accordingly. All the business is scheduled in discussion with the usual channels. So I take the noble Lord’s point and agree that this should not be done often. However, in fact, most Third Readings recently have been formal and short, and I hope that we can prove that after this is over. Therefore, in this case, I ask that the Motion be agreed to.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I will briefly say, as the Opposition Chief Whip, that I agreed the Motion in the usual channels. I speak to the Government Chief Whip every single day, often many times every day—I am sure the noble Lord is sometimes sick of the sight of me coming to his office. I can always make it very clear that I do not like the Elections Bill in many cases, and I will be ensuring that the House divides numerous times on Report and many other times at ping-pong. However, I do actually think that this Motion itself is good, and I am very happy to support it.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Tuesday 8th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

My Lords, today is the penultimate day of Committee on the Nationality and Borders Bill. As the time available for this Bill in Committee is now limited, we will, I am afraid, sit late today to make sure that we get to the target group. It is perfectly possible if all noble Lords co-operate. There is no dinner break business, but we will take a short break of 30 minutes at around 7.30 pm.

I know the significance of the issues in this Bill. So far, we have debated more than 100 amendments; we have about the same number to go. We must finish this Committee stage by the end of Thursday. So far, we have spent 20 hours in Committee on the Bill, but there is a lot of other legislation to progress before the end of the Session. The Companion to the Standing Orders says:

“The House has resolved ‘That speeches … should be shorter’. Long speeches can create boredom and tend to kill debate.”


I know that the Front Benches will co-operate, as they have done hitherto, but I ask that all noble Lords do the same. There are very important issues to be discussed in the debates on this Bill but, if all bear in mind the guidance agreed by this House, we can ensure that everyone’s contributions can be heard this afternoon and this evening.

It is not considerate to other noble Lords who want to speak on later groups to make long speeches early in the day, particularly if they repeat points that have already been made or are not directly related to the amendments. So I repeat my request that noble Lords be self-disciplined and considerate to other noble Lords.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I thank the Government Chief Whip for his statement at the start of our proceedings.

As always, as the Official Opposition, we will use our best endeavours to progress proceedings. We have before the House important business that is not uncontroversial and deserves to be properly scrutinised in a business-like fashion, giving us the opportunity to understand fully the Government’s intention, question the Government and get to grips with the reasoning behind the Bill during this Committee stage. I will be in discussion with the Government Chief Whip throughout the day on the passage of the Bill.

Tributes

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Thursday 16th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

My Lords, before we depart for the Recess, it is traditional for the usual channels to take an opportunity to pay particular tribute to those members of staff who have left the House after long and distinguished service. I know I speak for the whole House in saying that we are hugely grateful to all the staff of the House for the work they have done this year, in some of the most challenging times we can remember.

We have all witnessed how hard they have worked in these unprecedented times, involving multiple changes to the working environment. Their resilience, innovation and patience have enabled the House to carry out its functions virtually, in person and in a combination of both, to the highest of standards.

First, I will say a few words about Helena Valencia Cruz, a long-standing early morning housekeeper, who sadly passed away in May while still in the service of the House. Helena worked on many of our floors since 2007 and always took pride in her job, ensuring that everything she did was of the highest quality. Helena will be particularly remembered for her flexibility during the pandemic and maintenance of high-quality work across the House of Lords at such a crucial time.

Nigel Sully, the former director of human resources, retired at the end of last year. In his time at the House of Lords, Nigel transformed and modernised the human resources function. He was the first professional HR director for the House. He also played a pivotal role in the Covid-19 response from day one of the first lockdown, leading the change to remote working. Nigel is remembered by his colleagues as being passionate about making the House an inclusive place for all who work here. He has continued to combine that passion with his other love as a member of the Inclusion Advisory Group at the Wiltshire Football Association and as a county-level football referee.

Barbara Rougvie was an early-morning housekeeping team leader who retired in January after working in the House for 24 years. She was responsible for cleaning many of the offices on the Principal Floors, including mine. She was exceptionally committed to her work and will be remembered especially for her care of her team and their work to ensure that they were safe during the Covid restrictions.

Lastly, I thank the officials and special advisers in the Government Whips Office for their dedication to supporting me and the whole House through all the changes over the last year. They have done so with great calmness and almost never-ending humour. I particularly thank Victoria Warren, Ben Burgess and Anishaa Aubeeluck, who sadly left the office in the course of this year, although I am pleased to say that they have not gone far—Victoria and Ben to the House of Commons and Anishaa to DCMS. Their legacy in the Government Whips Office will remain for a long time.

I wish them, the staff and Members of the House a healthy and peaceful Recess and a very happy Christmas.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I join the Government Chief Whip in paying tribute to all the staff of the House. We are all grateful for their service in the most challenging of times.

I pay particular tribute to three members of staff. Abiodun Aina was a housekeeper in the book team. Abi started work in the Victoria Tower in January 2012. She was a conscientious worker who cleaned the books, parchments, bookshelves and floors on the 12 floors of repositories. Abi was a team player who, during Covid, would change her shift pattern and help the early housekeeping team to complete their sanitising duties. Sadly, Abi passed away in July this year.

Caroline Bradford and Gill Reding retired from Hansard earlier this year. Caroline joined the Hansard team a decade ago. When she applied for her reporter post, she was asked in the interview what she thought her role was. She replied that she saw herself partly as everyone’s mother and partly as the class clown. This made the interview panel laugh. She got the job and in the following decade was true to her word. The office is a quieter place without her, and her warmth and energy are sorely missed. We hope that her retirement has not been too full of grandmotherly babysitting duties and that she has plenty of time to enjoy herself.

Gill retired from the Hansard team after more than 30 years’ service. Through her humour, the outstanding quality of her work and the open, honest and respectful way in which she related to everyone, she earned the respect of the whole Hansard team. Her whispered comments at the Hansard table will be sorely missed—although now it will be easier to keep a straight face when sitting there. The whole Hansard team wish her and her husband Jonathan well and the very best for her retirement.

I also join the Government Chief Whip in paying tribute to the staff in the Whips Office. They are always respectful when dealing with me and my colleagues in the Labour group, and we thank them very much for that. I worked closely with Victoria and Ben over many years. They are missed and we wish them well in their new roles.

I also thank all the staff who work in the Labour Whips Office. They managed to keep me on my feet and briefed, as well as all my colleagues. We would not be able to do our jobs without them. We thank them very much.

It is always a privilege to be in this House, and we would not be here if it were not for all the staff who serve us in every job they do. We thank them all and wish them and all Members here a happy and peaceful Christmas, and a good and happy new year.

Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Thursday 17th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

My Lords, I thought this might be a convenient point for me to make a short statement about recess dates. A note containing the dates that I am about to announce will shortly be made available in the Royal Gallery. I should stress, as is always the case, that these dates are subject to the progress of business.

As previously announced, we will rise for the summer at the end of business on Thursday 22 July and return on Monday 6 September. We will then rise for the Conference Recess at the conclusion of business on Thursday 16 September and return on Monday 11 October. We will take our usual autumn long weekend, rising at the end of business on Wednesday 10 November and returning on Monday 15 November. We will rise for Christmas at the conclusion of business on Thursday 16 December and return on Tuesday 4 January.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I thank the Government Chief Whip for that advance notice. It is very welcome and helpful for the House.

Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development etc.) (England) (Amendment) Order 2021

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Tuesday 8th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

My Lords, with the agreement of the usual channels, we are going to defer both votes until tomorrow, so they will be on tomorrow’s Order Paper. After this, to give everyone time to move over to the next business, we will have a short adjournment.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

I thank the Government Chief Whip. I would have been very happy for my vote to be agreed by the collecting of voices, but the Government did not take me up on that offer. Obviously, I fully understand about these technical issues and we are happy for the votes to take place tomorrow.

Social Media: Online Anonymity

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Wednesday 6th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking, or intend to take, to deal with online abuse by people using anonymous social media accounts.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, online anonymity is an important part of a free and open internet—but being anonymous online does not give anyone the right to abuse others. The Government have made it clear that more needs to be done to tackle all kinds of online abuse. We will publish a joint DCMS-Home Office White Paper this winter, setting out a range of legislative and non-legislative measures and establishing clear standards for tech companies to help keep UK citizens safe.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept and understand the huge concern of law-abiding citizens that people are hiding behind anonymous accounts and making threats to kill, to rape, to assault and to bully, using racist, anti-Semitic and Islamophobic language? The platforms that host these people have done nowhere near enough to deal with this problem. If they will not get their own house in order, the Government must make them, through legislation. Will the Minister impress on his colleagues in government that the forthcoming White Paper must make that clear to them?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I am happy to be able to agree with the noble Lord. Let us be clear: when abuse exceeds the threshold and moves into criminality, in most cases so-called anonymous perpetrators are actually traceable, so they can be prosecuted according to the law. I recognise the public disquiet about this, and, as the noble Lord said, we are considering what more can be done, by non-legislative means but also, when required, by legislation—and there will be legislation. We will consider what to do about anonymous abuse specifically, and we will address that in the online harms White Paper, which, as I said, is due out this winter.

Political Influence: Artificial Intelligence

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Tuesday 4th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, when does the Minister think that the Government are going to move on from being concerned about this and looking across Whitehall to actually taking some action to deal with this urgent matter?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The online harms White Paper will be published in the winter of 2018-19.

Sport: Performance-Enhancing Drugs

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Monday 23rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Criminal activities are subject to the negotiations that will take place and the Home Office is responsible for those. On doping in sport, we already have an international system based on WADA which I do not think will change just because we are coming out of Europe. This is an international problem that extends far beyond the borders of Europe. However, I take the noble Lord’s point that it is very important that we continue with that system and I see no reason why we should not be able to.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Addington, that we need to ensure that we drive these drugs out of individual sports, both at amateur and professional level. It is important to drive them out of team sports as well, but it is also important that football clubs have grounds they can actually play at. Will the noble Lord take back to his honourable friend the Minister for Sport our thanks for her support for Dulwich Hamlet? However, the club is still locked out of its ground, and we are only allowed to play thanks to Tooting and Mitcham. We need further help to get back into our home ground at Champion Hill.

Personal Data

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Tuesday 17th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they propose to take to regulate platforms that hold personal data.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, the UK’s forthcoming data protection laws will empower people to take control of their personal data and ensure that all businesses, including platforms, take necessary steps to protect the information that they hold. This is a crucial step in giving the public confidence that their data will be managed securely and safely. Beyond this, the digital charter that we are developing in the UK sets out the principles for our approach to agree the norms and rules of the online world and put them into practice. In some cases this will be through shifting expectations of behaviour, in some we will need to agree new standards, and in others we may need to update our laws and regulations.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

I am sure that, like me, the Minister saw the media reports of Mr Mark Zuckerberg’s appearance on Capitol Hill last week. He seemed to accept that some form of regulation was now inevitable. Will the Government look at what can be done in that respect? Does the Minister think the solution may be to regulate the people working in the industry, giving them clear obligations and clear standards to adhere to?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, as I mentioned in my Answer, legislation is coming. The combination of the GDPR, which comes into effect on 25 May, and the Data Protection Bill, which should be in place by then, will make a real difference. Other things need to be done. One of the biggest changes in the last few months has been the acceptance that these social platforms have some responsibility for their content. That does not mean to say that they are publishers as such but Mr Zuckerberg accepted responsibility for content on Facebook. The Prime Minister, in her Davos speech, made much the same point.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 13th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, the amendment in my name, and that of my noble friend Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, would insert a new clause in the Bill that requires a data controller to notify both the Information Commissioner and the police if they are subject to a ransomware attack. Ransomware attacks involve hackers taking control of your information held on a computer and agreeing to release the information back to you only on the payment of a large sum of money. It is kidnapping not of a person but of information.

Apparently thousands of UK businesses have paid these ransom demands and do not bring these issues to the attention of the authorities for fear of damaging their reputation. This is a really serious issue, and one that we cannot allow not to be addressed. I find it shocking that companies are paying these ransom demands, effectively on the quiet. The amendment would make it a legal requirement to notify. It is only by being able to understand the scale of these attacks and understand what has happened—whether or not it is successful is irrelevant—that the authorities can undertake the important work of analysis needed to prevent these attacks happening in the future.

I would go further, and say that it is irresponsible of data controllers or their businesses and organisations not to come forward to notify the proper authorities. They are vulnerable and making the problem worse by hindering the efforts to tackle the problem. Not only are they at risk of whoever is behind the attack coming back for more money later—having paid the hacker, the person will be seen as an easy touch—they are exposing other people, businesses and organisations to this form of attack in the future. My amendment would require notification, and I look forward to a detailed response to the issues I have raised. I beg to move.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for his amendment on data protection breaches and ransomware attacks. The repercussions of such attacks are felt by everyone, whether or not they are a direct victim of the crime. It is estimated that in 2016 the cost of fraud and cybercrime in the UK was £193 billion, with the full social cost likely to be much higher. It is therefore essential that stringent measures are in place in legislation to ensure that cyberattacks and fraud are prevented, and any perpetrators found and stopped.

We, nevertheless, believe that Amendment 78A is unnecessary. Article 33 of the GDPR, referenced in the noble Lord’s amendment, requires the data controller to inform the Information Commissioner within 72 hours of all data breaches, including as a result of ransomware attacks. The controller is required to provide information of the likely consequences of the personal data breach, and to describe the measures taken or proposed by the controller to address the breach. There is one exception, given in Article 33, for breaches unlikely to result in a risk to data subjects, but that hardly seems relevant in cases where hackers have proven access to the data in question.

The GDPR does not require data controllers to report cyberattacks to the relevant police forces, for good reason. It is well understood that the Information Commissioner has the expertise and resources to take the appropriate and necessary action in the first instance, including, if she deems it appropriate, referrals to the police or to investigate and bring prosecutions herself under data protection law. I am also puzzled by the amendment’s intention to single out ransomware as the only form of cyberattack worth reporting to the police. A huge range of cyberattacks cause substantial distress and harm to individuals, such as insider attacks, attacks from third countries and other cybercrimes, such as malware and phishing. In addition, organisations can report cyberattacks or fraud to Action Fraud, which in turn ensures that the correct crime reporting procedures are followed. This organisation is overseen by the City of London Police, the national lead for economic crime, and we believe that it represents an effective and scalable structure. For the reasons I have stated, therefore, I would be grateful if the noble Lord would withdraw his amendment this evening.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I am happy to withdraw my amendment this evening. I wanted to raise the issue here. The Minister cited the figure of £193 billion lost through these and other forms of attacks—he went through a number of them—and this is a very serious matter. I hope that he is correct that companies are required to notify the Information Commissioner on the back of this legislation. This is very serious. I hope that he is correct that it is not necessary to go to the police—the sums of money that he mentioned are absolutely shocking. At one point, he said that the Information Commissioner can start prosecutions. That is fine, if we can find the people behind the crime and if they are in this country. If they are somewhere in lands far away, I wish him all the best, but I suspect that we will have some trouble in catching the perpetrators or bringing them to justice. My worry is that, because of reputational damage, companies will be reluctant to notify anyone about this stuff. It is very serious.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Can I just echo what the noble Lord says? We agree that it is serious, which is why we have set up the National Cyber Security Centre to help to protect public services online and why the Chancellor allocated nearly £2 billion for cybersecurity when he launched that centre.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

It is very pleasing to hear that. I welcome that, but these are matters that we will have to keep under review. Unfortunately in this world, the people involved in this stuff are usually quite skilful and bright and can keep one step ahead of the law or the people trying to catch them. We should keep these matters under review but, unfortunately, they are not going to go away. My worry is that these crimes are committed many miles from these shores and catching the perpetrators is the problem. However, I am very happy at this stage to withdraw my amendment.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Report stage (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 11th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I welcome government Amendments 11 and 12. As we have heard, they address some of the concerns that were raised in Committee. The Government have said that they never intended to have a narrow interpretation and they have put back the words of the 1998 Act, which is very welcome. As was said earlier, the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, has laid out in great detail the issues addressed in his Amendments 25 and 26. He makes a very important and clear case and raised some important issues. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde, will respond to those. I certainly think that there is a case for bringing these things back at Third Reading to address the points the noble Earl has raised.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am grateful to everyone who has spoken in this debate. As we have just heard, Amendment 25 would replace the existing processing conditions:

“Insurance and data concerning health of relatives of insured person”,


and:

“Third party data processing insurance policies and insurance on the life of another”,


with a broader insurance processing condition. Amendment 26 would require the Information Commissioner to produce sector-specific guidance for the insurance sector. These processing conditions are made under article 9(2)(g), the substantial public interest derogation. When setting out the grounds for such a derogation, the Government are limited by the need to meet this substantial public interest test. We are also required to provide appropriate safeguards for data subjects.

The Government recognise the importance of insurance products, in particular compulsory classes and the protection afforded by third-party liability. As the noble Earl mentioned, engagement between the insurance sector and government officials has continued since this matter was discussed in Committee and, indeed, since I met him and representatives of the insurance industry after Committee. There is still some work to do on the precise drafting of the relevant provisions, but I am grateful for the opportunity to place on record the Government’s intention to table an amendment addressing this issue at Third Reading, if we can finalise the drafting in time and the House is content for us to do so. At the moment I am not aware of any insuperable problems in that regard, but noble Lords will recognise that this is a complex issue and one that we want to get absolutely right.

As for the Information Commissioner producing sector-specific guidance, as proposed by Amendment 26, I will certainly take that back and pass it on to the department. With that reinsurance, or rather reassurance—“reinsurance” was a bit of a Freudian slip there—I respectfully invite the noble Earl not to move his amendments this evening. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for raising this issue, and to the noble Baroness for her comments. These issues are vital to our system of government, and we agree with that.

Amendment 27 seeks to expand the umbrella term “political activities” to include any additional activities determined to be appropriate by the Electoral Commission. Noble Lords will agree that engaging and interacting with the electorate is crucial in a democratic society, and we must therefore ensure that all activity to facilitate this is done in a lawful manner. Although paragraph 18(4) includes campaigning, fundraising, political surveys and case work as illustrative examples of political activities, it should not be taken to represent an exhaustive list.

Noble Lords will be aware that the Electoral Commission’s main areas of expertise concern the regulation of political funding and spending, and we are of the opinion that much, if not all the activities they regulate will be captured under the heading “political activity”. As I have just set out, fundraising is included as an illustrative example, which ought to provide some reassurance on this point. Moreover, the greater the number of activities denoted by the Electoral Commission, the less likely it is that any other activity would be considered by a court to be a political activity by dint of its omission. The commission, a body which as far as I am aware claims no expertise in data protection matters, would find itself in an endless spiral of denoting new activities as being permissible under the GDPR. Nevertheless, in recognition of the importance of such processing to the democratic process, the Government are continuing to consider the broader issues at stake and may well return to them in the second House. In this vein, the noble Lord made a number of good points, and I look forward to meeting him with the Minister for Digital, my right honourable friend Matt Hancock, on Thursday this week to discuss the matter in more detail than the parameters of this debate allow. We will see what the noble Lord feels about the timing of that after the meeting.

As for the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, we talked about having bigger meetings, and I am sure the time will come. This is just a preliminary meeting to decide on timings and to give the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, the chance to discuss this with the Minister for Digital. I envisage that further meetings will include the noble Baroness.

I appreciate the sentiment behind the noble Lord’s amendment. In the light of our forthcoming discussions, I hope he feels able to withdraw it.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I thank the Minister for his response. I tabled the amendment to keep the issue live and to illustrate the problem we have here. In his response, he talked about the responsibilities of the commission and data protection responsibilities and how they may conflict, belonging to different bodies. That begins to highlight the problem that we potentially have here. You could have different regulators trying to enforce different bits of legislation, all on the statute book at the same time and equally legitimate. We have got a real problem here.

I look forward to the meeting on Thursday. It is very important that we have a meeting after that, though, with a much wider group of people from different parties and campaigns. It is a genuine problem that affects every political party represented in this House and the other place and those that are not in either House. There is no advantage here—it is a question of getting a procedure in place that allows political parties to campaign and do their job properly and fairly. Equally, it protects the volunteers so that they understand what they can and cannot do so that they do not unintentionally get themselves in difficulty. I look forward to the meeting, but there are one or two things to sort out before then. I hope that it can get done by Thursday but, if it cannot, we have the other place. But it would be much better to sort it out at this end rather than the other end. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 22nd November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for turning the Committee’s attention to the provisions in Clause 163. The clause makes it a criminal offence for a data controller, or somebody employed by the controller, to deliberately frustrate a subject access request by altering, defacing or destroying information that a person would have been entitled to receive.

This offence is not new. A similar offence was provided for in Section 77 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000. The only difference between the offence in Clause 163 and the offence in the Act is that the latter was limited to the handling of subject access requests by public authorities and their employees and agents, whereas Clause 163 extends this to apply to all controllers.

The noble Lord’s amendment would make it clear that the offence applies where a data subject requests personal data about them contained in a review about workers written by a third party. I am grateful to the noble Lord for explaining the background to the amendment; nevertheless, I submit that it is unnecessary. Article 15 of the GDPR makes it clear that the data subject has the right to obtain from the controller confirmation as to whether data about him or her is being processed, as well as access to that data. Whether a report about the data subject was compiled by a third party or processor acting on the controller’s behalf is irrelevant, as it still amounts to personal data held by the controller.

It is always unacceptable for any controller to destroy or deface personal data with the sole intention of preventing somebody accessing what they were entitled to. That is precisely why Clause 163 creates a criminal offence targeted on that particular activity.

I hope that I have addressed the noble Lord’s concerns. If I have not, of course I will be more than happy to discuss them with him later. Therefore, I hope that he will be able to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I thank the noble Lord for his response. He has not really addressed the point that I was making, so I will be very happy to have a discussion outside the Chamber. This is a real problem that is happening now and I am not convinced that what we have in the Bill will be enough to deal with it. It may well be that my amendment is not in the right place, but there is an issue with people not easily accessing data that is held on them, particularly for the self-employed and others seeking work through various platforms.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

If we have misunderstood the noble Lord’s intention behind the amendment, I apologise. As I said, we will be happy to discuss it with him.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I do not think that the noble Lord misunderstood; it is just that there are several issues around the gig economy that we need to look at, and I shall be happy to discuss them outside the Chamber. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, the Bill creates a comprehensive and modern framework for data protection in the UK. The importance of these data protection standards continues to grow—a point that has not been lost on noble Lords, nor the Government. That is why the Government have tabled Amendments 185A, 185B, 185C and 185D, which provide for a framework for data processing by government.

Inherent in the execution of the Government’s function is a requirement to process significant volumes of personal data, whether in issuing a passport or providing information on vulnerable persons to the social services departments of local authorities. The Government recognise the strong public interest in understanding better how they process that data. The framework is intended to set out the principles and processes that the Government must have regard to when processing personal data.

All government and public sector activities require some form of power to process personal data, which is derived from both statute and common law. In light of the requirements of the GDPR, such processing should be undertaken in a clear, precise and foreseeable way. The Government’s view is that the framework will serve further to improve the transparency and clarity of existing government data processing. The Government can, and should, lead by example on data protection. To that end, the proposed clauses provide the Secretary of State with the power to issue guidance in relation to the processing of personal data by government under existing powers. As I have already stated, government departments will be required to have regard to the guidance when processing personal data.

The Government have consulted the Information Commissioner in preparing the amendment and will, as required in Amendment 185A, consult the commissioner before preparing the framework. The Government are keen to benefit from the commissioner’s expertise in this area and to ensure that the framework does not conflict with the commissioner’s codes of practice. The guidance should provide reassurance to data subjects about the approach that government takes to processing data and the procedures it follows when doing so. It will also help to strengthen further the Government’s compliance with the GDPR’s principles. I beg to move.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, government Amendments 185A, 185B, 185C and 185D add four fairly substantial new clauses to the Bill on the last day of Committee. I can see the point made by the Minister when he moved the amendments, but it is disappointing that they were not included right at the start. Have the Government just thought about them as a good thing?

The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has not had time to look at these matters. I note that in Amendment 185A, the Government suggest that regulations be approved by Parliament under the negative procedure. I will look very carefully at anything that the committee wants to bring to the attention of the House when we look at these matters again on Report. I am sure the committee will have reported by then.

I will not oppose the amendments today, but that is not to say that I will not move some amendments on Report—particularly if the committee draws these matters to the House’s attention.

[Lord Clement-Jones]

My Lords, I want to echo that point. There is time for reflection on this set of amendments and I sympathise with what the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 13th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

No, it is not the first time because this is the position that exists under the Data Protection Act 1998.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for speaking in this debate. As I think the noble Lord, Lord McNally, said, these amendments would delete just two words, but we have had a very important debate. We tabled the amendments to probe these issues, which are very important.

I am pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde, has agreed to meet us because we need to discuss this. It would be much better if we could get interested Peers from this House and officials from various parties together to sort this matter out, rather than leave it and let it go to the other place. We have a much better record of sitting down and sorting such issues out. I hope, if we need to amend the Bill, we do so on Report. Before we have our meeting—I accept it will be quite a big meeting—it would be useful if the noble Lord wrote to me, if he can, and to other interested Lords so we can have the Government’s position on paper before we sit down. That would help our discussions and move them on. There is a community of interest among noble Lords.

I certainly agree with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, and by my noble friends Lord Whitty and Lady Jay, but we need to focus on these issues, get them right and get proper amendments in place to protect parties and campaigners as they do their proper and lawful work. At this stage, I am happy to withdraw the amendment.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Monday 6th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

It is always a pleasure to meet my noble friend, and I am happy to do that.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate this evening. We have touched on a number of important topics, which I hope the noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde, will reflect on as we move through the Bill and look at these issues again. I make it clear that my amendments were all probing amendments to get from the Government their position on things. I was particularly pleased that the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, raised the issue about the insurance industry and that the Minister will meet him and representatives of the industry.

I noticed when the Minister replied to the debate that on more than one occasion he made references to recitals. He, I and the House know that the recitals will not form part of British law, so to keep relying on them is, I contend, a little weak on the Government’s part. They will have to find something a bit stronger and more solid as we move on, because, as I said, these will not form part of British law. That is an important point for the Minister to think of when he responds to amendments. For him to keep relying on them highlights the position the Government are in, which is not very good at the moment. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Monday 30th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer the Committee to my registered interests: I am on the board of two small charities in the London Borough of Southwark.

I recall from Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, who is not in his place today, talking about the effect of the legislation on small organisations—many others have made reference to it already. He referred to parish councils, which often employ just a part-time parish clerk. The noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom, spoke similarly about the effect on organisations. Both noble Lords had a point at Second Reading, as does the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, with her amendment today.

As we have heard, the amendment limits the scope of the Act to organisations employing more than five people and specifies for exemption organisations such as small businesses, charities and parish councils which meet the employment qualification of five employees or fewer. My noble friend Lord Knight of Weymouth made a valuable point about size and turnover—I think the noble Baroness accepted that in her intervention.

The amendment also makes the useful point that the exemption is not limited to these three specific groups but seeks to cast a wider net. I certainly want to hear from the Minister that community councils would be exempted, as well as the small not-for-profit sector and small co-operatives, which I am sure is the intention behind the amendment.

The amendment needs a detailed response, as we have to be clear on what the Government think is reasonable for such organisations to have to comply with and how the Government will make it as simple as possible and not pile additional burdens on them. I hope the Minister will not say that these organisations already have to comply with the 1998 Act and that this legislation is only a very small increase in what is required. We will require a lot more reassurance than that from the Minister.

Amendment 152, also in this group, would place a duty on the Information Commissioner to advise Parliament, government and other institutions and bodies on the likely consequences, economic or otherwise, for industry, charities and public authorities of measures relating to the protection of individuals’ rights and freedoms with regard to the processing of personal data. The noble Baroness again makes a valid point and there is merit to placing this duty in the Bill.

If the Minister thinks that Clause 113, and specifically Clause 113(3)(b), is sufficient to provide the Information Commissioner with the power and the duty to do what is set out in the amendment, we need him carefully to set that out today for the benefit of your Lordships’ House.

Amendments 169—and Amendment 170, which would add “and charities” to it—raises some very important issues. It would place a duty on the Secretary of State to ensure that they or the Information Commissioner had a programme in place to ensure that information on the new duties that businesses and charities will be obliged to follow is publicly available. Again, these are very important and welcome amendments. Large businesses, large corporations and large charities will more than likely have the structures in place to ensure that they comply with any new requirements, but smaller organisations do not have compliance departments or lawyers on retainer to advise them. The Government have to get that message out to them. I particularly like subsection (2) of the new clause proposed by Amendment 169, which would require this information to be placed online and the Secretary of State to have regard to the creation of online training and testing to meet the requirements of the new Act. This group of amendments raises important matters on which I hope the Minister can give the Committee some reassurance.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have raised the amendments and commented on them, because the Government recognise the concern behind them; namely, to protect the smallest organisations from the additional requirements established by this and future data protection legislation and to ensure that all UK businesses and organisations are properly supported through the transition.

I fully concur with my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe that supporting UK businesses of all sizes must be a priority. I can assure her that it is of the utmost importance both for the Government and for the Information Commissioner. However, I cannot agree with the proposal in Amendment 7 that those organisations with five or fewer employees be exempted from the requirements of the Act. We are talking in this Bill not just about businesses but about individual rights of data subjects. As my noble friend Lord Lucas mentioned, it is right that individuals enjoy the protections that will be afforded by this new regime regardless of the size of the organisation with which they are dealing. People should not be afforded a lesser degree of protection simply because they have chosen to do business with, or indeed to voluntarily support, a small organisation. After all, the fact that an organisation employs few staff does not mean that a breach of data protection law will cause a correspondingly small amount of distress. Many of the most cutting-edge financial technology firms begin life in someone’s back bedroom, but it does not make their customers’ transaction history any less worthy of protection.

Amendment 7 is unlikely to have the intended effect because the GDPR does not permit such an exemption. As an area in which our ongoing relationship with the European Union will be of the utmost importance, I do not consider that such an amendment would be in the best interests of British businesses.

However, I understand my noble friend’s concerns that the smallest organisations may be the least well equipped to deal with the changes introduced by this regime. I was therefore pleased to learn recently—the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, mentioned this—that the Information Commissioner has announced the establishment of a dedicated telephone advice service for small and micro businesses to support them in implementation. The noble Lord also mentioned that the threshold was 250 employees, which represents quite a large organisation by today’s terms, with small businesses, especially in the tech field, growing up all over the place.

In respect of Amendment 152, I fully concur with my noble friend about the importance of monitoring the consequences of the Act for businesses and other organisations. I reassure her that there is already, quite rightly, a broad obligation on government to assess and report on the impact of all legislation that regulates business under the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Act 2015. In addition, the Information Commissioner will be required to advise Parliament, government and other bodies on both legislative and administrative measures relating to the new Act and to provide opinions on any issue relating to the protection of personal data. My noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe also asked about the impact on business. I confirm that the Government will publish a further assessment of the impact of the Bill on business very shortly.

With regard to Amendment 169, it is worth reiterating that the Information Commissioner has already provided general guidance, which is available online to all businesses, to help them understand their obligations. The commissioner is continuing to develop this guidance and has a programme in place for publication. I cannot go through it all but, in addition to the guidance the ICO has already published, it expects to develop this further between now and May into a fully comprehensive guide to the GDPR, including summaries and checklists, as well as more detailed content focused on key areas. This will also be available online from early next year. Later this year, the Information Commissioner will publish draft guidance on children’s data; on accountability, including documentation; on legitimate interests, including examples addressing universities maintaining alumni relationships; and draft guidance on security of processing, including joint work on high-level security principles. It will also provide sector-specific guidance. The Government are working with the Information Commissioner to identify appropriate areas and to work with sectors to deliver more guidance.

In respect of timing, I completely agree with my noble friend that it is desirable that up-to-date guidance about the new regime is available to businesses as soon as possible. As I have just set out, that is precisely what the commissioner is already attempting. But I fear that it may not be feasible, as the amendment requires, for final information to be published at least six months before the commencement of the provisions in the Act, not least because changes to the Bill may affect that guidance.

In respect of Amendment 170, I share the sentiment of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, in wishing to ensure that charities are provided with guidance to help them understand their obligations. I reassure him that the general guidance that the Information Commissioner has already published is designed to assist all organisations through the transition.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, asked how the role of the Information Commissioner will develop and be resourced. My noble friend Lady Williams said at Second Reading that the Government take the adequate resourcing of the Information Commissioner very seriously and have provided for an appropriate charging regime in Part 5 of the Bill. I assure the noble Lord that we are aware that there are problems with the Information Commissioner at the moment and we are looking at that. But, possibly for the reasons that he mentioned, I am not able to make any binding commitments tonight. But I accept that there is an issue there. We are looking at it.

I assure noble Lords that the Government share the concerns raised in these amendments and are particularly pleased that the Information Commissioner is actively taking steps to provide dedicated support for small and micro enterprises, including the telephone service I mentioned earlier. With that in mind, I hope my noble friend feels able to withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

The Minister mentioned guidance a few times and said that it might not be ready in time. I was reminded of our debates—which he was not involved in—on the Housing and Planning Bill. We were told about guidance and regulations, and well over a year later we have seen next to nothing. This is such an important issue that we need to hear a little more from the Minister. I and many other noble Lords mentioned parish councils. I do not think he mentioned those. For example, I know the Deeping St James Parish Council in Lincolnshire very well. It employs only a part-time clerk. I think the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, made a similar point about parish councils at Second Reading. Perhaps the Minister could say something about that.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Yes, I think my noble friend mentioned the parish council of the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, in her reply. I make the point again that individuals’ data rights have to be protected. Just because parish councils are small organisations does not mean that they should not take that seriously—and I am sure they do. With regard to the practicalities of how they cope with their duties, apart from the fact that the Information Commissioner is providing guidance specifically for small organisations, the parish clerk—who already often works for more than one parish council so they can share the cost—is in a good position to deal with the duties under the Bill and will be able to take the guidance relating specifically to small businesses and organisations from the Information Commissioner.

I admit that I did not follow the Housing and Planning Bill too closely. But I mentioned a lot of the guidance that will be available before the end of the year. The Information Commissioner is very aware of the need to produce this quickly. In addition, of course, she is actively involved in outlining the European guidance on which a lot of member states’ guidance will be based. Therefore, she is helping to set the tone on which her future guidance will be based.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

That is fine as far it goes. The point I am making is that we have heard guidance mentioned two or three times, in relation to two or three different organisations. I know that the Minister was not involved but we heard the same comments about guidance and regulations from the Government Front Bench when we were dealing with the Housing and Planning Bill. I hope we are not having déjà vu here. We hear these things are coming forward. These things are very important. I accept entirely that people’s data are important—of course they are—but, equally, getting this guidance right is important, as is organisations being able to have the information so that they ensure that they comply with the law. I hope the Minister can take back how important this is. He said it will all be after Report, at the end of the year. The Bill will have long left this House and we will be saying, “Where is this guidance then? You promised it and nothing has arrived”. It really is not good enough for the individual data subject or for business or for anyone else involved.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I agree with the noble Lord that, if nothing did arrive, it would not be good enough.

Telecommunications Infrastructure (Relief from Non-Domestic Rates) Bill

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 24th October 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer the Committee to my registered interests as a local councillor and a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I support Amendments 1, 5 and 11 in this group, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock. They highlight some real problems for communities—be they urban or rural—which suffer from poor connectivity, and there has been no real incentive to improve the situation for them by improving speeds. The amendments add the condition that, for the relief to apply, it has to be focused on areas within a local authority where the average broadband speed is 10 megabits per second or less. I think I am right when I say that about 93% of homes and businesses in the UK are able to receive superfast broadband, but it is the copper version. The Bill is generally welcomed.

The noble Baroness is right to focus her amendments on areas with poor connectivity. There is a good argument for this as reliefs provide an incentive to do something that a business might otherwise not want to or be keen to do. The view may be taken that it is not economically beneficial, or something else could be more beneficial. The noble Baroness raises the important issue of how to ensure that those parts of England and Wales, urban and rural, which suffer from poor connectivity can benefit from the relief provided to companies. Otherwise, such areas run the risk of falling further behind. We can all agree that the benefits that fibre can bring could be enormous for all parts of the UK.

Can the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, respond to the concern expressed by the noble Baroness, as we do not want to see parts of the country falling further behind? How can we ensure that this relief, welcome though it is, actually benefits those areas with the worst connectivity?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of Hyde) (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Bourne has left this one to me. I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their contributions. I realise the point that some of these issues raise. I will make some general comments on the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, and then come to the substance of the amendment.

The noble Baroness referred to billion-dollar companies—I presume she meant BT. The relief applies to all companies, large or small, because fibre-optic cable is the way of the future. We regard laying fibre-optic cable as a good thing, regardless of where it is and who lays it, so we leave it up to the market. This Bill is a fairly blunt instrument—merely an enabling measure; it was announced by the Chancellor and it is merely to allow the relief to take place. On the very understandable issue of where it should be directed, we have carried out a number of measures to effect that. We understand the issue about rural and hard-to-reach areas—and, indeed, some of the areas in our cities that do not have adequate broadband. The specific amendments do not necessarily address the broad thrust of some of the remarks made by noble Lords, and I will explain why we do not think the amendments are particularly helpful. They would mean that the reliefs provided for in the Bill on new fibre applied only to those areas that currently receive an average speed of less than 10 megabits per second. They would undermine a fundamental part of what we seek to achieve through the Bill. We want to ensure that businesses and households throughout the country, including rural areas and cities, have access to faster broadband. In fact, by the end of this year, 19 out of 20 premises will have access to superfast broadband.

The universal service obligation will provide a digital safety net by giving everyone in the country the legal right to request a connection to broadband speeds of at least 10 megabits per second by 2020. As noble Lords will know, we are also considering a voluntary proposal from BT in that respect. I stress that the 10 megabits per second is a safety net; we want as many people as possible to have access to superfast broadband or better, which is why we have set a target of 95% superfast coverage by the end of 2017, which will continue to be extended beyond that to at least 97% of premises.

We have delivered a series of measures to ensure that all areas can and do have access to the broadband speeds that they need. For example, Defra has just made available £30 million of funding under the rural development programme for England, targeted at supporting rural businesses and growth for broadband services in those areas with speeds of 30 megabits per second or faster where that is not currently available or planned. In the 2016 Autumn Statement, the Government announced more than £1 billion to support digital infrastructure, targeted at supporting the rollout of full fibre connections for future 5G communications. The first wave of projects for our local full fibre networks programme has been launched, and includes a mixture of urban and rural areas. We are soon to launch a challenge fund for local bodies to bid for access to £200 million, with all parts of the UK free to participate, and we anticipate a significant number of applications from predominantly rural areas. We think that those projects will encourage further commercial interventions to build and extend fibre networks.

We support better broadband in all areas, but we believe that the amendment would limit the rate relief to only those local authority areas with an average of less than 10 megabits per second, which would damage the rollout of faster broadband across the UK. First, it would mean that much of the new fibre to be installed to the premises—FTTP—would be excluded from the relief. To deliver a network that is fit for the future, we need more fibre everywhere, including in areas that currently get more than 10 megabits. This amendment could deter significant investment and have the perverse result that less full fibre—the gold standard of broadband technology—was actually deployed.

Secondly, the amendment would exclude from the rate relief new fibre in those villages and rural areas that do not currently have high-speed broadband but happen to fall within a local authority area which does on average have high speed broadband. It would mean excluding from the relief whole areas where support is needed and where the measures provided for in the Bill would make a difference. At the moment, less than 3% of premises across the UK receives under 10 megabits per second, so the amendment potentially excludes up to 97% of premises from the relief.

Therefore, I hope that the Committee will recognise that the amendments should not be included in the Bill. However, we agree that improving broadband in those areas with less than 10 megabits is a priority, which is why we have put in place the universal service obligation. The new fibre rate relief as proposed through the Bill will support that objective. I hope that, with this in mind, the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for laying out their amendments clearly. As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said, these amendments are very much linked to the last group on which I answered—the first group today.

Amendment 4, which was moved by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, seeks to ensure that there is a requirement for recipients of the relief to,

“give due consideration … to rural and hard to reach areas”.

In a similar vein, the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, proposes an amendment to require a report on the impact of these measures on rural connectivity. Although I might support the spirit of these apparently reasonable amendments, I do not believe that they are necessary. I share the concerns of many noble Lords that rural and remote areas should not be left behind in the drive to improve and extend high-quality broadband connectivity. I declare an interest: I live in a rural area and am absolutely aware of the problems to which noble Lords have alluded.

The relief provided for in the Bill is available across England and Wales. No area is excluded or exempted, and we have engaged with the Welsh Government to support the application of the measure in Wales. Providers deploying fibre connectivity in the countryside will receive the same rates relief as those deploying in the hearts of our great cities. That is important because the problems of slow speeds are the same, regardless of where the household is located. When we talk about social deprivation, for example, it is still a problem in an inner city as well as a rural area.

Providers are free to deliver connectivity wherever the market allows. However, to ensure that people living and working in rural and remote areas can and do have access to the broadband speeds that they need, the Government have delivered a series of measures, which I mentioned in my previous answer—but I shall remind noble Lords of them just briefly. There is the superfast rollout programme, which is worth about £1.7 billion of public money. We are currently consulting on the broadband universal service obligation, which will apply across the United Kingdom, with at least 10 megabits per second. Then there is the local full fibre networks programme, worth £200 million, and the rural development programme for England at £30 million for broadband. Those measures have been a great success, with 45% of households with superfast in 2010 rising to 95% by the end of this year.

It is clear that the relief will be alongside a package of measures put in place by the Government to help spread to those living and working in rural and remote areas the benefits of economic growth and access to services that better broadband connectivity will bring. Together, they will also lay the foundations needed for the next generation of mobile technology, known as 5G, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, referred.

The noble Baroness’s proposed new clause in Amendment 15 would require a report on the impact of the measure on rural connectivity. I support the outcome—that is, an understanding of the impact of Government’s action in this area—but my concern is that requiring a report on the impact on rural connectivity may have an adverse effect. Telecoms networks take time to plan and build, and investors rely on certainty. A report on the relief after 12 months is premature, given the time taken to deploy networks. My noble friend Lord Bourne will cover reporting arrangements in greater detail later, but my concern is that if the Government are required to report so soon, it could create uncertainty over whether the relief will continue, and lead to unintended consequences.

On subsection (2)(c) of the noble Baroness’s proposed new clause, on mobile coverage, I note that the main benefit of the measure to mobile will be in aiding the deployment of 5G. It will take longer than 12 months for the next generation of mobile technology to appear; we do not quite know what it is yet.

Of course, we will monitor the effectiveness of the scheme in providing new fibre, which will include rural areas, but we need to allow the sector appropriate time to build networks in all areas. Ofcom reports on infrastructure deployment every year, and we should see the impact of all the Government’s measures in this field in due course. In view of those explanations, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

The Minister made the point, with regard to the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, that 12 months may be too soon. After what period of time does he think a report would be useful? Would it be 12 months, 24 months or 36 months?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

Ofcom reports every year, so I do not think it would matter whether it is 12 months or 24. My point was specifically on mobile coverage for which the 12 months would not be appropriate, because 5G has not really been invented yet, so there certainly will not be any visible signs on mobile coverage. Essentially, we are saying that we want fibre-optic cable to be laid over all areas of the country to improve future mobile reception and also fibre to the premises, which is what the future gold standard is. We need it everywhere, not just in rural areas. While we accept that rural and hard-to-reach areas have a problem, I have laid down a series of other measures to deal with those areas specifically.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I thank the Minister for that response and for his response to my other question. I am happy at this stage to withdraw my amendment.

Immigration Bill

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Monday 1st February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, the amendments in this group are all in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and concern the regulations set out in Schedule 4 to the Bill about bank accounts and the processes around freezing orders. These amendments generally seek to improve this section of the Bill by bringing greater clarity to the process. Amendment 180 provides for the court to be able to award compensation, which seems reasonable to me. If a court has allowed an appeal, it has presumably determined that it was wrong to freeze the account in the first place. Taking into account how long the order was in force and the inconvenience to the person or body and being able to award an amount of compensation do not seem unreasonable, taking all relevant factors into account. If the noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde, thinks that this is adequately covered in Section 40E(3)(b), it would be useful if he could say so when he responds to the debate.

I am not sure whether Amendment 182 has the desired effect when looking at Section 40C and the proposed amendment. Amendment 183 would increase the number of regulations that are subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, which is very welcome. I know the noble Lord, Lord Ashton, said recently that I never agree to negative procedures. That is just not the case. However, all sides of the House have voiced concern about the Bill, and the more regulations that are covered by the affirmative procedure, the better.

This section is on access to services. Clause 13 is about tenancies and landlords, who can potentially go to prison for up to five years and be fined. I could not find anything about directors of banks if bank accounts are opened improperly. What happens to bank directors? They seem to be able to get away scot free. It would be useful if the noble Lord will respond on what happens about bank accounts.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

Amendment 178 would require, as opposed to permit, provision for reasonable living and legal expenses to be included in a freezing order. Amendments 179 and 180 would permit an appeal to be made against an order that is no longer in force and allow courts to order compensation. Amendments 181 and 182 would mean freezing orders could be applied for or maintained only if that is overwhelmingly in the public interest. Amendment 183 would make nearly all the regulation-making powers in these provisions subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. I take back what I said about the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy: I am sure he addresses the affirmative and negative procedures with the due consideration they deserve, and he is eminently flexible.

The noble Lord will know that the Bank of England Bill, which is currently before the other place, puts in a new regime which gives specific responsibility to individual senior managers for various duties. Therefore, individual bank directors will not be able to escape as they have in the past.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

May I press the Minister on this serious point? There are serious provisions for landlords who commit offences, but there is nothing about bank directors. The Minister should reflect on that and come back with regulations. I know he is busy on another Bill, but this is an important matter.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I absolutely agree that it is an important matter. I do not necessarily think that this is the place for it, given that this is an immigration Bill, but I will certainly reflect, along with my noble friend the Minister, on what he said. But it may not be something for this Bill.

Significant safeguards against error are built into the bank account provisions. We already share with banks details of illegal migrants who are liable to removal or deportation and have no open application or appeal. These data are subject to rigorous checks. There will be a further check under the new provisions before the bank takes action to close an account or the Home Office applies to freeze it—in which case, of course, a court is also involved.

As the code of practice will set out, applications for freezing orders will be reserved for a small number of cases with significant funds. The person’s circumstances, including the risk they pose to the public and their immigration history, will be carefully considered. I agree that it must be in the public interest to freeze an account, but not that the legislation needs to say so. We want people with no right to be here to leave the UK. Applying for and monitoring orders will involve a cost to the Government and the courts. They will only be used where we believe it to be necessary. This will be where a person’s history and behaviour make it both difficult and very desirable to remove them. They will also have to have enough money to make freezing it until their departure a significant incentive to leave.

Freezing orders will not cause destitution. The court has a broad discretion to make exceptions, with reasonable living and legal expenses explicitly included. In some cases another source of funds may mean that such provision is not required. Standard provision for such expenses will normally be included when an order is first applied for. Affected persons can apply to the court to have an order varied or discharged, and the Home Office can support an application where it agrees with it. This would allow orders to be swiftly varied on the papers without a hearing.

Courts can consider complicated circumstances, and there is discretion as to which accounts are included. Further detail will be set out in rules of court and guidance. It is appropriate to provide for an appeal to a higher court, but it would be wasteful where an order is not in force. Nor do we believe that it is necessary to make provision for compensation. The risk of an order being erroneously imposed is extremely small. In addition to the checks outlined above, the court will have to be convinced that the order is appropriate and proportionate. I have already explained how it may be swiftly varied if necessary.

I turn to Amendment 183. Key regulation-making powers in these provisions are already subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. Of those subject to the negative procedure, all but one concern matters of administrative detail. The Government continue to work with representatives of the financial services sector to ensure that these provisions are effective without imposing an excessive burden on business. The remaining regulation-making power is to bring into force the code of practice on when a freezing order will be applied for. It is right that the code is laid before Parliament, so that the Government’s intentions for the orders are clear, but ultimately it will be the court that decides if a freezing order is made. The negative procedure is therefore appropriate. The Delegated Powers Committee has made no criticism of the powers in this schedule and has recommended no changes.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, asked about new Section 40E(3), which I confirm would allow a court to order compensation on appeal. However, there is no route to compensation if an order is lifted before it is appealed. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked how an account closure can be challenged if the Home Office data were wrong. Individuals whose accounts are subject to closure will be informed by the bank of the reason, provided it is lawful to do so. If, despite all the checks, a person still considers that they are lawfully present, and that incorrect information has been provided, they will be given the information they need to contact the Home Office swiftly so that any error can be rectified. As is currently the case with data provided to Cifas, the Home Office will be able to correct any error in real time—as the noble Baroness mentioned—so that the person’s details will be immediately removed from the data which are shared with the banks.

The noble Baroness also talked about the Joint Committee on Human Rights. I have explained why I do not think this is necessary, but we will consider with care any further representations from the committee.

There was a question on why there is compensation provision for errors made in closure orders but not in freezing orders. There will be repeated checks on the Home Office data and careful consideration of an individual’s circumstances before a freezing order is applied for. The court must also be convinced that the order is appropriate and proportionate. In the light of those comments, for the moment, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

Immigration Bill

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Wednesday 20th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, in response to the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, the Minister referred to the nature of voluntary work. I think we may need a little more detail on that, and perhaps it would be a good idea if he wrote to noble Lords. It is an important point because voluntary organisations and the people who work for them need to be very clear about their position on this matter.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I completely agree that it is an important point and I will be happy to write to the noble Lord and others who have spoken on this after our session in Committee today.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I take the point from the noble Lord, and that is why it would be better if our response was written down once we had had a chance to think about it carefully and get our definitions right. I will circulate the response and put a copy in the Library of the House so that voluntary organisations know where they are.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate. When applications for asylum take longer than six months, being allowed to work is a reasonable objective. I thank the noble Lord for his response and I look forward to the letter on the points we have just discussed. Some powerful speeches have been made, particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, and many others. Surviving on £5 a day is an impossible hardship and it has to be endured for many months. As my noble friend Lady Lister said, the risk is that these people will be driven into the illegal work market where the risk of exploitation is even greater.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, mentioned the issue of the red doors in Middlesbrough. It is unbelievable and I hope that the Government will take very firm action, but let us make sure that we do not end up just painting all the doors blue next time. I make that point because this has to be dealt with properly. It is a scandal and an absolute disgrace. With that, and with my thanks for other comments made by the noble Lord, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Immigration Bill

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Monday 18th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their remarks. Before I move to the amendments spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, I shall comment on the points raised on the government amendments.

I was asked when the new system, which the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, described as burdensome, will be used. This is a new power to be used after the existing penalties have been applied under the existing Acts. For example, in national minimum wage regulations, the current penalty is naming and shaming. In other areas, there are civil penalties. These amendments are designed for egregious offences and repeated offences where, for example, some companies may decide to take the fine and continue to pay their workers less than the minimum wage. We have included these new powers to put an end to breaches of labour market rules. We think they are an important part of the new toolkit to address these serious matters.

Resources have been mentioned on several occasions this evening. I take the point that if these new powers are not properly enforced, there will be no point in having them. My noble friend has already committed to talk about resources and to write to noble Lords on that subject, and I will ask him to include this in his letter.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, raised the subject of electronics. He cleverly included matters which are nothing to do with this Bill. Of course, electricity is dangerous when it is incorrectly applied. The electronic means in this Bill bring it into the 21st century, but that does not mean that they should be used in all cases.

The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, talked about the four current Acts which can trigger the possibility of going into enforcement, and—again—he mentioned money. I agree it is bound to cost some money. As I said before, my noble friend will include that in his reply, if I could leave it like that for the time being.

Of course, the Director of Labour Market Enforcement will set out in his strategy how the funding that is available for the enforcement agencies should be allocated. Every year he makes an annual report. It would be very surprising, if he were underresourced, that he would not refer to that in his annual report.

As I have said to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, routine cases will continue to be dealt with using existing powers. There will be LME undertakings, and then orders will be for the more serious cases.

I move on to the amendments in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, to which I listened carefully. Amendment 47A would change the court’s power to make an LME order on application from an enforcement agency, so that the court would have to be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the person had committed or was committing a trigger offence.

We think it appropriate that a court should be able to make an LME order on application from an enforcement agency on the basis of the balance of probabilities rather than the criminal standard of proof. In these circumstances, the order is designed to prevent further offending, not as a means of sentencing the person on conviction for an offence. The amendment would limit the ability of enforcement agencies to invoke the LME order regime to secure compliance as an alternative to straightforwardly prosecuting the person for a trigger offence.

Amendment 50A would remove the court’s power to include a prohibition, restriction or requirement in an LME order on bringing the order, the circumstances in which it was made and any action by the respondent to comply, to the attention of persons likely to be interested in the matter. However, we think it right that the courts, in making an LME order, should be able to require a business to make the matter known to interested parties, and failure to do so would result in a breach of the order with the possibility of prosecution for the consequent offence. It is properly for the courts, not the Director of Labour Market Enforcement, to impose this requirement. The amendment would significantly weaken this provision, possibly enabling those subject to an LME order to conceal it from its employees, creditors and trading partners.

Amendment 57A would remove from the provisions relating to offences by bodies corporate the possibility of a manager committing the offence of failing to comply with an LME order where they have consented or connived in the offence or it was attributable to their neglect. However, it is appropriate that managers, in addition to their companies, should be held liable for the offence of failing to comply with an LME order where the offence resulted from their neglect, consent or connivance. Secondary liability provisions of this kind, including liability for managers, are commonplace in other legislation. The principle that managers can be held liable for offences committed by their company in certain circumstances is well established.

In the light of what I have said, I hope that the noble Baroness will agree not to move her amendments.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

The Minister made reference to a point I picked out about electronic communications. It is his party that decided to allow the use of electronic communications in this Bill for contacting people who may have committed some very serious offences. Another Bill, also on the Floor of this House around the same time, is denying law-abiding citizens to get their communications by electronic means. I asked the Minister if he would point out that contradiction to his friends in BIS, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe. I would be grateful if he could confirm that he will do that.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I am very happy to report the noble Lord’s comments to my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe. I would not necessarily call that a contradiction but I will certainly bring his remarks to her attention.

Immigration Bill

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Monday 18th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, several noble Lords said right at the beginning of our debate that these government amendments came fairly late, but noble Lords on the opposition Benches are not the only ones to suffer from that. I will therefore have to ask the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for her indulgence because I am afraid that her Amendment 18 was not contained within my speaking notes for this group. It is an amendment to our Amendment 17, but I do not have the details of how I should refute it with the power that I normally would. As my noble friend Lord Bates said right at the beginning, and as I think the noble Baroness mentioned, some of these issues may be revisited at times on Report—but I accept that that is not a very compelling argument tonight.

The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, talked about negative and affirmative procedures. I have never known him to agree that we should have a negative procedure when we could have the affirmative. I do not want to repeat the reasons that I gave, but we have made a distinction between regulations that create new offences or affect primary legislation and those which merely deal with existing offences, where we still maintain that the negative procedure is correct.

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, asked how far the remit of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority will roam in future. I cannot tell her that today, but I absolutely take on board her point. As I said in my opening remarks, we intend that the authority should evolve. That is the whole point of our changing the Gangmasters Licensing Authority to the new arrangements, and putting it under the remit of the Director of Labour Market Enforcement. The only thing we are likely to be concerned about—we have made this point before—is that it will be for labour market enforcement issues and not for other things. However, I take on board the noble and learned Baroness’s point on where it might evolve.

Of course, the Director of Labour Market Enforcement is required to outline a strategy. That is one of the things that we would expect him to do, having used the intelligence hub to work out where the efforts of his three enforcement agencies should best be employed. I also take on board that if we are expanding their role, there will be resource implications. My noble friend Lord Bates has already committed to write to noble Lords about the resource issue, so I would like to leave it there and ask that the amendments be accepted.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I assure the noble Lord that I would be very happy to agree to a negative procedure. I have nothing against that at all, but my concern here is that we have not had the greatest time today, with amendments arriving late. It is about my lack of confidence and the fear that we may be sitting back here in some weeks’ or months’ time with problems, only for us to say, “I told you so”.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I hear what the noble Lord says.

Chancel Repairs

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Thursday 15th January 2015 Grand Committee

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Avebury for raising the issue of chancel repair liability for debate today. I am also grateful for the interesting contributions of other noble Lords who have spoken. I feel, in some ways, that the right reverend Prelate should be here, I will not say in the dock, but here with me to answer some of the speeches, which were all on the theme of changing the present situation. I listened carefully to the concerns expressed about chancel repair liability and I am sure that the Ministry of Justice will consider them in detail, but I must make clear—I trust that this will not come as too much of a shock to noble Lords, except, perhaps, to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy—that the Government have no plans to change the law at present. None the less, it is because we take the concerns seriously that we are keeping the situation under review.

I do not have time to go through the long history of chancel repair liability. In fact, my noble friend Lord Avebury has dealt with that admirably, as have other noble Lords. The Law Commission has considered the liability a number of times since the 1960s. The present legal position is that chancel repair liability is an ancient but valid right that enables the owner, who, in England, is usually the PCC, to enforce the liability. This right can play an important part in the finances of the 5,000 or so churches with the benefit of the liability. In earlier times, the main problem was that the liability was sometimes difficult, if not impossible, for a prospective buyer to discover. Now, following the removal of its status as an overriding interest in October 2013, its existence is readily discoverable. This is a major improvement, as my noble friend Lady Wilcox said.

On the other hand, the unpredictability of the incidence of the liability, its open-ended size and particularly its joint and several nature, mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Cashman and Lord Rooker, still attract criticism. It is, however, unclear how far these potential problems are causing widespread real difficulties in practice. The Ministry of Justice’s impression is that enforcement, now and for some time past, against ordinary homeowners is rare. This may be a consequence of the relatively small number of chancels, probably about 500 to 600, where the liability falls on individual property owners. It may also be because PCCs are reluctant to enforce the liability. Their wider mission may, perhaps, not be best served by imposing financial hardship on individual members of the local community. That is, however, a decision for individual PCCs, who can get advice from the church and the Charity Commission, as well as their own legal advice.

Under Section 110 of the Charities Act 2011, trustees can get reassurance from the Charity Commission that they are acting in accordance with their duties. It may also be that the level of concern about the liability has been temporarily increased by the registration. My noble friend Lady Wilcox asked how many ordinary householders are affected by this liability. We do not have the statistics indicating how many ordinary householders are affected, but the Land Registry has received about 9,000 applications for registration of notices and 160 applications for the registration of a caution against first registration. What we can be sure about is that there are enough people who may be affected to take this subject seriously.

The Government appreciate that homeowners who were unaware that their home was subject to the liability may well have been worried by the notice. The speech by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, reminded us of the effects to real people, not just in theory, but the reality is that their legal position has not changed. The fears that were expressed leading up to the deadline of October 2013 that the registration of a notice can render a property unsaleable or unmortgageable do not seem to have materialised, nor does the market in chancel repair liability insurance seem to have disappeared. That is not to say that chancel repair liability cannot or will not cause major problems for some homeowners, but at present it is not clear that that liability is doing so in practice.

Even if reform is necessary, it may not be straightforward, as the right reverend Prelate made clear in a very measured speech. Abolition, as advocated by the noble Lords, Lord Avebury, Lord Cashman, Lord Rooker and others, would almost certainly require compensation to be paid because chancel repair liability is a property right protected by the Human Rights Act, as confirmed by the House of Lords. The sums involved in aggregate might run to hundreds of millions of pounds. The right reverend Prelate suggested that compensation is the way to abolition but he did not mention by whom. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, said that that is where the Government come in.

Schemes for release, redemption or compounding might be created or present ones, as outlined in the Ecclesiastical Dilapidations Measure 1923, improved, but their cost and attractiveness to prospective users would have to be considered carefully. The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, mentioned some of the difficulties in estimating a compounded amount, taking into account the net present value for an unlimited liability stretching forever. What discount rate, for example, would one use, taking into account the average interest rate across all years forever?

I know that my noble friend Lord Avebury and other noble Lords will be disappointed that the Government are not developing any proposals for reform at present but I assure noble Lords that the Ministry of Justice will consider evidence of actual hardship or general problems that the law may cause and will keep the situation under review.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

Having heard the contributions of noble Lords, in particular from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby, that is a most disappointing response from the Government and makes no attempt to deal with the issue.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The problem is that nobody has come up with a simple way of how to do it, except by providing compensation, because it is a property right under the Human Rights Act. The issue is: who provides compensation to the people who own the right? We have decided that there is no necessity to do that when there is no actual example of hardship taking place at the moment. The reason that I said that we will keep it under review is that if there is evidence of actual hardship taking place, we will consider this measure.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

Is it not possible for the Minister to say today that he would welcome discussions between his officials, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and the Church of England? If this could be resolved, everyone would be happier. I do not see why he cannot even offer that to the Committee.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I did indicate that when it comes to dealing with the church and the National Secular Society, we would take part in discussions if required. I also made clear that if there was evidence of hardship, the Ministry of Justice would consider it. I do not think that that is unreasonable in the absence of any actual evidence of hardship at the moment. If there is evidence of hardship, we will discuss it, and of course we are always willing to talk to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, or any other noble Lords at any time.

Judicial Appointments (Amendment) Order 2014

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Thursday 23rd October 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)]

My Lords, the order before us today amends the judicial appointments criteria to enable registered patent attorneys and registered trademark attorneys to be appointed persons able to review the decisions of the Intellectual Property Office as part of the appeals process. Section 10(2) of the Intellectual Property Act 2014 inserted new Section 27A in the Registered Designs Act 1949 under which the Lord Chancellor appoints an appointed person to hear appeals against decisions of the Intellectual Property Office in relation to design rights.

This instrument amends the Judicial Appointments Order 2008 to include an appointed person in the list of those offices for which registered patent attorneys and registered trademark attorneys can satisfy the judicial appointment eligibility condition. The purpose of this draft order is to support the Intellectual Property Act 2014 and its aim to introduce a quicker and more cost-effective route of appeal against design decisions of the IPO. At the moment, the route of appealing against decisions of the IPO in relation to designs is via a dedicated tribunal, which has been used only twice in the past 10 years. It offers no flexibility or route for further appeal. The Government’s aim is to have a process in place for design rights that mirrors the appeals process already in place for appeals against trademark decisions

The decisions of the IPO in relation to trademarks can be appealed to a person appointed by the Lord Chancellor—an “appointed person”—based on a recommendation of the Judicial Appointments Commission. This gives the appeal process some degree of independence from the IPO. To do this in relation to decisions on designs, the IPO has amended Section 27A of the Registered Designs Act 1949 to include similar provisions to those in the Trade Marks Act.

I will give the Committee some background. Following the Hargreaves review of intellectual property and growth, the Government have been carrying out a programme of work to determine how to improve the designs legal framework. This has resulted in changes to design legislation included within the Intellectual Property Act 2014, including those I referred to earlier in relation to determining appeals.

The Government’s aim has been to improve access to justice for businesses using the UK designs registration system by allowing them to choose a low-cost, reliable and efficient appeals route system. The changes make the system easier to understand for users of different forms of intellectual property by simplifying the appeal framework and aligning it with the trademark appeal route. This draft order seeks simply to support that aim by allowing a registered patent attorney or registered trademark attorney who holds a relevant qualification to be eligible to be a person appointed under Section 27A of the Registered Designs Act 1949.

The principles of the Intellectual Property Act 2014 have already been approved by this House. This order seeks merely to support the implementation of that Act by allowing the appointment of appointed persons to hear appeals against design decisions of the IPO. I therefore commend this draft order to the Committee and I beg to move.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde, for setting out the details of the draft order. The order provides a technical amendment to the Judicial Appointments Order 2008 and will allow the Lord Chancellor to appoint registered patent attorneys and registered trademark attorneys as appointed persons, allowing them to hear appeals against decisions of the Intellectual Property Office.

The Opposition have no issues with the proposal. I have two brief questions that I hope the Minister will be able to answer. As he is aware, the majority of the provisions of the Intellectual Property Act 2014 are set to commence in April 2015. The part of the 2014 Act amended by the order enables the appointment of appointed persons who meet the new criteria. Will the Minister explain why the order is due to take effect before the Act comes into force? Why can we not just wait until the relevant legislation has come into effect? Secondly, the law in this area is highly specialised and complex. Will the Minister confirm to the Grand Committee that he has confidence that the Judicial Appointments Commission has the necessary capacity and expertise to make appointments in this area? However, I put on record the Opposition’s support for the order and look forward to the reply from the noble Lord.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for his questions. He first asked why we were making this change when the commencement date for the Intellectual Property Act 2014 has not passed. The order was laid before Parliament on 7 July 2014. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the department with oversight for the Intellectual Property Act 2014, enacted the relevant parts in respect of the new appeals process on 15 July 2014. The statutory instrument was considered by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments on 16 July 2014 and by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee on 21 July 2014. The relevant parts of the Act have been put in place and this statutory instrument will allow the appeals process to be in place in time for the Intellectual Property Act commencement date of April 2015.

The other question asked by the noble Lord was whether we are confident that the Judicial Appointments Commission has capacity. The answer is yes.

I believe this to be a reasonable amendment which aims to support the Intellectual Property Act 2014 and help UK businesses. I hope that noble Lords agree with me that this is a proportionate and sensible measure.

Legal Services Act 2007 (Approved Regulator) (No. 2) Order 2014

Debate between Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Kennedy of Southwark

Thursday 23rd October 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not intend to detain the Grand Committee for very long. I agree with many of the comments that noble Lords have made so far in the debate. The Opposition fully support the proposal and endorse the reasons outlined by the Minister why it is necessary and welcome.

The Chartered Institute of Legal Executives provided me with a very helpful briefing that makes clear the benefits of the proposal, and I am grateful to them for that. I agree with the comments by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips of Sudbury, about what a good organisation CILEx is. It has done excellent work on a variety of areas, particularly on broadening the diversity of the legal profession, and I pay tribute to it for that.

Allowing CILEx to become a regulatory body in the areas of conveyancing and probate is welcome. It will help to cut bureaucracy and red tape and help to make things simple for everyone. However, it would help if the Minister could comment on the remarks made by the former Lord Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Phillips. He expressed concern that regulatory competition would have a detrimental effect on standards, that the variation in standards between regulators was inappropriate in principle and that a variation on standards may bring about a drive to the bottom.

I also noted that the former Lord Chief Justice had one matter of concern across the board—parity of standards when one has a proliferation of regulators—and he had further concerns as to whether the instrument deals with contentious or non-contentious probate. It would be helpful if the Minister could give us his views on those points as well. Having said that, this measure helps to encourage an independent, strong, diverse and effective legal profession, and consumers will have much greater choice. That is very welcome and I am very happy to agree the order.

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this brief debate. It has been helpful to identify concerns and I hope that I will address them—although there did not actually seem to be that many, as far as I could understand it. I have been able to set on record why the Government have decided to designate CILEx as an approved regulator, and I am pleased to hear what I think was the universal approval of CILEx as a suitable regulator for the reserved instrument activities and probate activities.

A number of questions and points were raised. My noble friend Lady Buscombe asked about paralegals. I am not 100% sure what the definition of a paralegal is so I will write to her to ensure that I have all the details. There are currently no proposals to extend the regulation to paralegals as a group, but obviously if a paralegal wanted to undertake a reserved activity, they would need to seek authorisation from one of the approved regulators, such as CILEx, and would have to undertake the correct test to ensure that the regulator could approve them.

My noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury talked about the issues surrounding the Legal Services Act in the context of competition. The Act has been passed by this House. Whether or not competition will be improved—I think that most people, and certainly the Government, feel that it will—in terms of this order, which appoints CILEx as an approved regulator, I think he was happy to agree that it is a satisfactory regulator for these two extra activities.