Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL]
Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts(8 years, 6 months ago)
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“Financial Conduct Authority
In Chapter 1 of Part 1A of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (the Financial Conduct Authority), after section 1J insert— “Recommendations1JA Recommendations by Treasury in connection with general duties
(1) The Treasury may at any time by notice in writing to the FCA make recommendations to the FCA about aspects of the economic policy of Her Majesty’s Government to which the FCA should have regard when considering—
(a) how to act in a way which is compatible with its strategic objective,(b) how to advance one or more of its operational objectives,(c) how to discharge the duty in section 1B(4) (duty to promote effective competition in the interests of consumers),(d) the application of the regulatory principles in section 3B, and(e) the matter mentioned in section 1B(5)(b) (importance of taking action to minimise the extent to which it is possible for a business to be used for a purpose connected with financial crime).(2) The Treasury must make recommendations under subsection (1) at least once in each Parliament.
(3) The Treasury must—
(a) publish in such manner as they think fit any notice given under subsection (1), and(b) lay a copy of it before Parliament.””
Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
My Lords, this amendment provides for the Treasury to issue remit letters to the FCA, a measure first announced in relation to both the PRA and FCA in the Government’s productivity plan in July. The Bill already makes provision for the Treasury to issue remit letters to the PRC and the amendment will enable Peers to consider provisions for the FCA and PRC remit letters together. As the House will know, the Bank of England and Financial Services Bill generally relates to the governance of the Bank, rather than the FCA. However, we have been considering the best legislative vehicle for the FCA remit letter provision and have decided that it would sit best alongside the PRC remit letter provision. As to the remit letter’s content, the productivity plan outlined that remit letters will provide information on the Government’s economic policy and will make recommendations about aspects of that policy to which the FCA should have regard. The recommendations in the letters will not be binding and will not compromise, modify, or override the FCA statutory objectives in any way; neither will they relate to individual firms or cases.
As to the timing and frequency of the publication of the letters, we are aiming to publish the first FCA remit letters following Royal Assent for the Bank of England and Financial Services Bill, after which they will be published at least once per Parliament. The letters will be used to provide a steer on the Government’s economic strategy over that period, but letters could be sent more frequently if particular issues arise.
Finally, the Treasury must publish its recommendations and lay a copy before Parliament. I beg to move.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, our one concern with this amendment was that it could in some way compromise the statutory objectives of the FCA as laid down by Parliament. The Government wrote to us with an assurance that that was not their intention. Today, the Minister read into the record the text of the letter. He said that the recommendations would not compromise, modify or override the FCA’s statutory objectives in any way. Given that a Minister’s statement in Hansard is a weighty commitment, we are satisfied with the amendment.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I was going to make almost exactly the same contribution and my question was exactly along those lines, so I am happy to endorse what the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said and look forward to the Minister’s response.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I am very grateful to both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Davies. I can only repeat what I said before. I accept the weight and the implications of what I have said.
Lord Naseby (Con)
My Lords, I shall speak to the new clause which stands in my name as Amendment 15. In doing so, I reflect the privilege of working with the mutual movement for 30 years. In creating this amendment, it was very clear that the Bill as it stood left some gaps of the one-size-fits-all kind. I gave some examples on Second Reading and further examples in Committee. Indeed, I can record this evening in your Lordships’ House that there is one new mutual insurer now trading, for the first time in 20 years. It is a new military mutual, serving our Armed Forces. I cannot think of a better new mutual to stand on the market than one which serves our Armed Forces.
I pay tribute to the Front Bench and in particular to the Minister. I understood that the examples I gave of misunderstandings, or of being left out or not fully understood, have been looked at by Her Majesty’s Treasury. I think that they were found to be quite genuine cases. I recognise that Her Majesty’s Government reserved the right, from the start, to look at the wording of the original new clause that I had tabled. I always had an open mind that those words might have to be amended, if necessary. They have been and are now before us.
There is still a problem in the world outside in understanding this. Half the population is being served by mutuals, yet very few people in authority really understand the driving force behind the mutual movement and why it is growing today. There is a need for all of us in society, particularly the regulators, to have a better understanding. I question whether the new regulator has anybody senior who has ever worked in a mutual. If not, then I hope there will be some appointments made hurriedly.
As far as the mutual movement is concerned—the building societies, the mutual insurers, the friendly societies and credit unions, and of course the Co-Op—tonight will be a special night if this new clause is accepted. It will recognise that their future needs will have to be considered and be better understood, so I say a huge thank you on their behalf to your Lordships’ House if this new clause is accepted.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I am grateful to both the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and my noble friend Lord Naseby for raising this important issue. I will take each of their amendments in turn.
The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, would add diversity of provision, including diversity of ownership, geography, community and size, to the list of factors to which the Financial Conduct Authority may have regard as part of its competition objective. The Government agree that access to suitable and affordable banking services is important for communities across the UK. The Government want to see greater competition in our banking sector, with more banks challenging the large incumbents. If communities or entrepreneurs want to set up a bank, either to serve their local community or to compete nationally, and can do so responsibly, Government and regulators should not be an obstacle to this.
This is exactly why the FCA is already required to promote effective competition in the interests of consumers of regulated financial services. We would expect its consideration of competition already to involve not just the number of competitors but the diversity of approach, including geographical location and community. In advancing its competition objective, the FCA may take account of various factors including barriers to entry for new providers of financial services, the needs of different consumers and the differences of businesses.
Baroness Kramer
Can I just add one point for the Minister? The FCA has recently completed a review of its competition objective, and he may be surprised to find that the word “diverse” does not occur anywhere in that review.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
After this, it will be alert to the need to look at diversity. I will come to how we deal with mutuals in a minute. On the last point about the needs of consumers and the differences of businesses, the statute is also clear that the regulators should recognise the different features of a diverse range of business models when pursuing objectives. This is achieved by the principle of good regulation whereby the regulators must have regard to,
“the desirability where appropriate of each regulator exercising its functions in a way that recognises differences in the nature of, and objectives of, businesses carried on by different persons subject to requirements imposed … under this Act”.
As part of fulfilling the existing competition objective, the Government have worked with the regulators to lower barriers to entry. That is why the Government created the Payment Systems Regulator to ensure all banks can access the payments systems on fair and equal terms.
These reforms and others have already had a significant impact, which I hope answers, in part, the noble Lord, Lord Davies. Between May 2010 and May 2015, eight completely new UK banks, all of different sizes and locations, were authorised by the regulators, including two new banks during this Parliament, with several more in the pipeline. This compares to just one new authorisation of a UK bank in the preceding five-year period. The PRA and FCA will also launch their new bank start-up unit on 20 January next year.
Furthermore, to encourage banks to provide services across a broad range of geographical locations and improve access to finance for small businesses across the UK, a number of measures have been implemented, which I will briefly go through. There is now the SME appeals process and the Business Banking Insight survey. The Government have also established the British Business Bank. These improvements complement another initiative: the postcode lending policy, which has allowed for these alternative finance providers and challenger banks to target regional lending “black spots” through publishing lending data by geographical region. This makes the British banking industry the most transparent in the world.
Given all the activity already taking place in this field, it is the Government’s view that the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, will not add to the existing work being conducted by the FCA. It is clear the regulators already take these factors into consideration when fulfilling their competition objective, so this amendment is unnecessary. I therefore respectfully ask the noble Baroness to withdraw it in due course.
Turning now to my noble friend Lord Naseby’s amendment, I indicated in Committee that the Government looked favourably on the intention behind his original amendment. I now welcome my noble friend’s current amendment, which we are delighted to accept. I am extremely grateful to him for raising this issue, and acknowledge the work he has undertaken in advancing the cause of mutuality. I hope that introducing the amendment, which puts consideration of mutuality and other types of business organisation into both regulators’ guiding principles, reassures noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Davies, that the Government strongly support a diverse financial services sector and the part that mutuals play in achieving it.
Lastly, the noble Lord, Lord Davies, asked whether an amendment was needed to the FCA remit letter to reflect the amendment that we will accept. We do not agree, and I therefore cannot give that commitment, because the provision for the remit letter already allows the Government to make recommendations about aspects of their economic policy relevant to the application of the regulatory principles, which will apply to the principles as amended.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
“( ) Regulations under subsection (3) may make the provision mentioned in subsection (6)(c) only with the consent of the Council of Lloyd’s.”
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, this may not be quite so interesting. Clause 26 will introduce a power into the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 for the Treasury to make regulations relating to transformer vehicles. Transformer vehicles are used for risk mitigation purposes, particularly in connection with insurance-linked securities business.
Lloyd’s is an important part of the London insurance market. The clause enables the regulatory arrangements of Lloyd’s to be updated, should that be needed to facilitate the Lloyd’s market adapting to insurance-linked securities business and the use of transformer vehicles. If this requires amendments to the Lloyd’s Acts, or makes other provision unique to Lloyd’s, new subsection (10) ensures that the regulations will not be treated as a hybrid instrument, so that amendments are not delayed in Parliament by the hybrid procedure.
During Committee stage, the Delegated Powers Committee considered this clause and reported that the power conferred was,
“adequately explained and justified in the memorandum”.
However, the committee raised a concern about the disapplication of the hybrid procedure, particularly in relation to regulations conferring functions on the Council of Lloyd’s. The committee pointed out that the purpose of the hybrid procedure is to protect private interests and recommended that the clause be amended,
“so that the power in subsection (6)(c) may not be exercised without the consent of the Council of Lloyd’s”.
The Government have considered this recommendation carefully and agree with the committee’s recommendation. Therefore, this amendment qualifies the power in new subsection (6)(c) to make regulations relating to Lloyd’s so that the power can be exercised only with the consent of the Council of Lloyd’s. I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, the Government received good advice from the Delegated Powers Committee. I am surprised that they deliberated for a period before reaching the right conclusion—that is, agreeing with the committee.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
“Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Consequential Amendments and Repeals) Order 2001
(1) The revocation of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Consequential Amendments and Repeals) Order 2001 (S.I. 2001/3649) by the National Savings Regulations 2015 (S.I. 2015/623) is to be treated as never having had effect.
(2) Accordingly, in the Schedule to those regulations, omit the entry for that order.”
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, the amendments in this group are being made to correct an error made in the National Savings Regulations 2015. Those regulations revoked a number of statutory instruments with effect from 6 April 2015. By mistake, these included the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Consequential Amendments and Repeals) Order 2001, which I will refer to as the 2001 order.
The 2001 order, which was revoked, was used to make most of the consequential amendments and repeals that were required to give effect to the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. It amended a range of primary and secondary legislation, including the Companies Acts, the Bank of England Act 1998, the Building Societies Act 1986, the Pensions Acts and other legislation related to financial services.
In some cases, the amendments made by the 2001 order have been superseded by subsequent legislative developments, but in many cases they are still necessary, and the repeal of the instrument making them has left the law in a state of considerable uncertainty.
The only way in which this regrettable uncertainty can be cured is for the revocation of the 2001 order to be cancelled out. That is what the amendments do. Amendment 27 provides that this revocation shall be taken as never having had effect. This amendment would have retrospective effect. We do not believe anyone would be adversely affected by the amendment. On the contrary, the law will be assumed to be as it was in force before the accidental revocation of the 2001 order. This amendment will restore the law to what it is presumed to be.
To sum up, the 2001 order was and still is necessary. It was accidentally revoked in the National Savings Regulations 2015. The amendment is cancelling that relocation ab initio so that the 2001 order will still be in force.
The second amendment, Amendment 30, will ensure that the first amendment is brought into force on Royal Assent. This ensures that we can restore legal certainty as soon as possible and limits the degree of retrospection involved.
I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I have seen some responses of a technical nature from Governments in the past which have brought some wry amusement, but I think the noble Lord has hit a new high on this occasion.
According to my notes, and I hope I am reflecting exactly what he said, to ensure legal certainty, the revocation is treated as never having had effect. We are getting to the end of this part of the Bill—and probably not before time.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
( ) The appropriate Gazettes are the London Gazette and—
(a) if the part of the United Kingdom specified under subsection (1)(b) is Scotland, the Edinburgh Gazette;(b) if the part of the United Kingdom specified under subsection (1)(b) is Northern Ireland, the Belfast Gazette.”
Lord Ashton of Hyde
Finally, my Lords, this amendment implements a recommendation of the Delegated Powers Committee made in relation to Clause 29 in its 11th report.
The clause permits the Treasury to make regulations authorising a bank to issue banknotes in Scotland or Northern Ireland in place of an existing issuer in the same group. The designation date on which the authorisation of the new issuer takes effect and the authorisation of the existing issuer ceases must either be set out in the regulations or published by the Treasury in accordance with the regulations.
The Delegated Powers Committee noted:
“A similar arrangement is allowed for in the Bank of Ireland (UK) plc Act 2012, but that obliges the board of the Bank of Ireland (UK) to publish notice in the London Gazette and the Belfast Gazette of the day appointed, and to do so before that day”.
The Delegated Powers Committee recommended that an equivalent requirement as to publicity should apply under the Bill.
The amendment will ensure that wherever the regulations authorising a new issuer do not set out the designation date, they must require the Treasury to publish notice of the designation date in the relevant Gazettes. This will be in the London Gazette and Edinburgh Gazette where a bank is being authorised to issue Scottish banknotes, or the London Gazette and Belfast Gazette where the bank is being authorised to issue Northern Ireland banknotes. I beg to move.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
Lord Ashton of Hyde
“( ) section (Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Consequential Amendments and Repeals) Order 2001);”
Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL]
Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts(8 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Bridges of Headley
That the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order:
Clauses 1 to 13, Schedule 1, Clauses 14 to 16, Schedule 2, Clause 17, Schedule 3, Clause 18, Schedule 4, Clauses 19 to 33, Title.
Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Bridges on the Order Paper.
Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL]
Lord Ashton of Hyde Excerpts(8 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
My Lords, Clause 20 makes a number of technical amendments to the provisions governing the administration of the senior managers regime, including those relating to the provision of updated statements of responsibilities.
On government Amendments 22 and 23, Clause 20(3)(f) imposes a restriction that prevents firms using an application to vary a condition or time limit as a device to appeal against enforcement action taken by the regulators. This is appropriate because the regulators can take enforcement action only after following the procedure laid down in the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. That procedure naturally includes proper provision for appeals. It would not be right to allow a further quasi-appeal route by means of application to vary conditions or time limits when those had been imposed as part of enforcement action.
However, Clause 20 goes a bit further than we intended. Subsection (4)(d) would impose a similar restriction preventing the regulators from varying conditions or time limits imposed as a result of enforcement action on their own initiative. That would clearly be unnecessary and could prevent regulators from responding appropriately when circumstances have genuinely changed. Government Amendment 22 corrects this oversight.
Government Amendment 23 makes some consequential changes to Section 204A of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. That section ensures that each regulator has the power to take enforcement action when regulatory obligations owed, in effect, to it are breached. This amendment simply makes sure that the section will work correctly where the regulators wish to take enforcement action in relation to breach of a requirement to provide a revised statement of responsibilities.
Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)
My Lords, we are in agreement with the Government.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
“( ) In section 204A (meaning of appropriate regulator)—
(a) in subsection (3)(d) for the words from “the authorised person” to the end substitute “the revised statement of responsibilities is to be provided to the PRA only;”;(b) in subsection (3A), after paragraph (b) insert—“(ba) a requirement under section 62A(2) where the revised statement of responsibilities is to be provided to the FCA and the PRA;”.”
Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)
My Lords, I support the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey. One of the main concerns of the Financial Services Consumer Panel has been the uneven playing field between paid-for and not-for-profit debt management services. People are being exposed to poor debt advice, as the noble Lord said, and this needs to be addressed both directly and in the round.
The central concern is this curse of our modern time: cold calling. Something could be done quickly. A Labour amendment was voted through in this House during the passage of the Consumer Rights Act on caller identification, but it has not yet been commenced. In response to my noble friend Lady Hayter, the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, stated that the Government were about to begin a consultation on caller ID. Can the Minister say now, or in writing at a later date, what the timetable is for this consultation? When can we expect to see some action on this issue?
Are the Government considering any other measures that could help tackle unsolicited market practices? They include the automated reporting of nuisance calls; the collation of nuisance calls—for example, more than 100 complaints and the calling number’s owner could be automatically referred to Ofcom, the Information Commissioner’s Office and perhaps the police; and appropriate victim redress for persistent cold calls from the same organisation.
The concern highlighted by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, is important in its own right, and so is the whole issue of cold calling. The two come together in this amendment, which we support.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, the Government share the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, about long-standing problems in the debt management market. Indeed, I have had the pleasure of answering questions from the noble Lord on this subject, and had a subsequent meeting with him and officials from the Treasury. We agree that it is imperative that vulnerable consumers in this market are treated fairly by firms and provided with the services that meet their needs.
As the Committee will be aware, responsibility for consumer credit regulation, including debt management firms, transferred from the Office of Fair Trading to the Financial Conduct Authority on 1 April 2014. The ensuing, more robust regime is dramatically improving consumer protections. The Government have ensured that the FCA has wide enforcement powers to take action where its rules are breached. There is no limit to the fines that it can levy and, crucially, it can force firms to provide redress to consumers.
Debt management firms are in the first group of firms to require full authorisation, with the FCA thoroughly scrutinising firms’ business models and practices. Every debt management firm will have to demonstrate compliance with the FCA’s rules and principles, including the requirement to treat customers fairly. Firms which do not meet the FCA’s threshold conditions will not be able to continue in the market. Decisions on those authorisations are due to take place—the first ones by the end of this year.
The FCA has also introduced tough new rules to protect consumers in the debt management sector, and the FCA actively monitors that market. It has flexible rule-making powers and, if it finds further problems, it will not hesitate to take action. The FCA requires that all advertisements and other promotions must be clear, fair and not misleading, and it is able to impose tough sanctions where wrongdoing is found.
Regarding the noble Lord’s specific points about unsolicited marketing, the financial promotions regime applies to those providing debt management services. The FCA requires that unsolicited marketing by phone, text or email makes clear both the identity of the firm and the purpose of the communication so that the consumer can decide whether to proceed. This was highlighted by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey.
The FCA also requires regulated debt management firms that accept leads from lead generators to satisfy themselves that business has been procured fairly and in accordance with data protection and privacy in electronic communications law. More broadly, in 2014 the Department for Culture, Media and Sport published its Nuisance Calls Action Plan. This set out the actions being taken by government, regulators, consumer groups and industry to tackle nuisance calls.
Importantly, the FCA has already committed to undertake a review of unsolicited marketing calls, emails and text messages from consumer credit firms, which will begin early next year. The Government believe that requiring the FCA to take a particular course of action before this review has taken place would limit the FCA’s ability to exercise its powers independently and would not necessarily achieve the desired result.
In answer to the question, “Why not act now?”, asked by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe—and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, implied that even if he did not say it directly—it is worth noting that, if additional requirements for debt management firms were introduced at present, those firms would be required to alter their internal processes. That would cause disruption to the FCA’s ongoing authorisation process, which is due to begin producing results within the next couple of months.
I shall take advantage of the offer from the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, to write to him on the caller ID review timetable, because I do not have that to hand.
In summary, the authorisation process is well under way and will not take a year, and the FCA review of unsolicited marketing calls will begin early next year, so I submit that the noble Lord’s amendment is not appropriate at this time. I therefore ask him to withdraw it, confident in the knowledge that he will continue to hold the Government to account on this subject.
Lord Sharkey
I thank the Minister for that answer, a lot of which was, as I knew it would be, very encouraging. There remains just one issue. This is going to take some time, during which a substantial number of people will be exposed to risk. I think that that is unnecessary. The mortgages example suggests that we can, without interfering with the FCA’s processes, do something simple and quick now to stop this abuse. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
“Enforceability of agreements relating to credit
(1) Section 26A of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (agreements relating to credit) is amended as follows.
(2) In subsection (4)—
(a) the words from “has” to the end become paragraph (a);(b) after that paragraph insert—“(b) is an appointed representative in relation to that activity,“(c) is an exempt person in relation to that activity, or(d) is a person to whom, as a result of Part 20, the general prohibition does not apply in relation to that activity.” (3) In subsection (5)—
(a) the words from “the agreement” (in the third place they occur) to the end become paragraph (a) (and the existing paragraphs (a) and (b) become sub-paragraphs (i) and (ii) of that paragraph);(b) after that paragraph insert—“(b) that person is an appointed representative in relation to that activity,“(c) that person is an exempt person in relation to that activity, or(d) that person is a person to whom, as a result of Part 20, the general prohibition does not apply in relation to that activity.””
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, government Amendments 27 and 28 make some minor and technical changes to the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 in relation to the regulation of consumer credit. The Government fundamentally reformed consumer credit regulation, transferring responsibility from the Office of Fair Trading to the Financial Conduct Authority on 1 April 2014.
The FCA regime is already having a substantial positive impact and is helping to deliver the Government’s vision for an effective and sustainable consumer credit market which is able to meet consumers’ needs. The amendments considered today are, as I have already said, technical in nature. They concern the application of provisions relating to the enforceability of agreements.
Amendment 27 amends subsections (4) and (5) of Section 26A of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, which concern the enforcement of credit agreements by persons acting on behalf of the lender, either by administering the agreement or by collecting debts under the agreement. This amendment makes it clear that a consumer credit agreement may be enforced by anyone who is able to carry on a credit-related regulated activity lawfully under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. This includes firms that are exempt from the need to have FCA authorisation to carry out these activities either because the firm has an individual exemption or because it is entitled to an exemption as a member of a designated professional body. It also includes appointed representatives of authorised persons.
The current provision requires the person to have a relevant permission under the Act. The amendment clarifies that this is not limited to persons who are directly authorised by the FCA but also includes persons who are exempt from needing authorisation either by virtue of a specific exemption or because they are appointed representatives or members of a designated professional body. In such cases, the person does not need FCA authorisation, provided that, in the case of an appointed representative, another firm with the relevant debt collecting or debt administration permission takes responsibility, as principal, for their activities and compliance with FCA regulations. In the case of designated professional bodies, if the FCA has approved the professional body’s rules under Part 20 of FISMA, and these cover debt collecting or debt administration, then members of the body can carry on those activities without needing direct authorisation from the FCA, provided that they do not engage in regulated activities which are outside the scope of the Part 20 permission. It was always the Government’s intention that subsections (4) and (5) of Section 26A should cover such persons, but the amendment puts this beyond doubt.
Government Amendment 28 amends Section 27 of FSMA, which deals with agreements made through unauthorised persons. Subsection (1) of Section 27 provides that an agreement made by an authorised person carrying on a regulated activity is unenforceable where it is made in consequence of something said or done by a third party in circumstances where that third party should have had, but did not have, permission. In the case of consumer credit and hire agreements, this could potentially cover any credit broker in what could be a long chain of multiple brokers, even if the provider is not aware of the particular third party or their involvement in the transaction.
This is in contrast to the position under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 prior to the transfer of regulation from the OFT to the FCA. Section 149 of that Act, which was repealed as part of the transfer, limited unenforceability to situations where the introducing broker was unlicensed and it was immaterial whether any other broker in the chain was unlicensed. The amendment would ensure that Section 27 is proportionate for consumer credit lenders and consumer hire providers in the context of the consumer credit market, where chains of credit brokers are often involved in bringing together the consumer and the lender.
Specifically, the amendment would ensure that this applies only if the provider knows—before the agreement is made—that the third party, such as a credit broker, had some involvement in the making of the agreement or in matters preparatory to its making. In such cases, if the broker is acting in breach of the general prohibition, the agreement will be unenforceable against the consumer, as is currently the case. However, if the provider is unaware of the broker’s involvement, the fact that it did not have permission when it should have done would not in itself make the agreement unenforceable.
The Government believe that this strikes the right balance between protecting consumers and ensuring that burdens on firms are reasonable and proportionate. I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, we consulted the Financial Services Consumer Panel on these amendments, and it confirmed that they were entirely technical. As I always take the panel’s advice, I think they are technical and agree with the Minister.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
“Enforceability of credit agreements made through unauthorised persons
(1) Section 27 of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (agreements made through unauthorised persons) is amended as follows.
(2) After subsection (1) insert—
“(1ZA) But this section does not apply to a regulated credit agreement or a regulated consumer hire agreement unless the provider knows before the agreement is made that the third party had some involvement in the making of the agreement or matters preparatory to its making.”
(3) In subsection (1A) for “The agreement” substitute “An agreement to which this section applies”.
(4) After subsection (4) insert—
“(5) For the purposes of subsection (1ZA)—
“regulated consumer hire agreement” has the meaning given by article 60N of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (Regulated Activities) Order 2001;“regulated credit agreement” has the meaning given by article 60B of that Order.””
Lord Ashton of Hyde
“Transformer vehicles
(1) The Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 is amended as follows.
(2) After Part 17 insert—
“Part 17ATransformer Vehicles284A Transformer vehicles
(1) In this section “transformer vehicle” means an undertaking (“A”) which—
(a) is established for the purposes of carrying on the activities mentioned in subsection (2), or(b) carries on those activities.(2) The activities referred to in subsection (1) are—
(a) assuming risk from another undertaking (“B”), and(b) fully funding A’s exposure to that risk by issuing investments where the repayment rights of the investors are subordinated to A’s obligations to B in respect of the risk.(3) The Treasury may by regulations make provision for facilitating, and provision for regulating—
(a) the establishment and operation of transformer vehicles;(b) the activities mentioned in subsection (2);(c) the trading of investments issued by transformer vehicles.(4) Regulations under subsection (3) may (amongst other things) make provision—
(a) for the incorporation and registration in the United Kingdom of bodies corporate;(b) for a body incorporated by virtue of the regulations to take such form and name as may be determined in accordance with the regulations;(c) as to the purposes for which such a body may exist and the investments which it may issue;(d) as to the constitution, ownership, management and operation of such a body;(e) for such a body to comprise different parts;(f) for such parts to have legal personality distinct from that of the body;(g) as to the holding and management of the assets and liabilities of such a body, including provision for the segregation of assets and liabilities relating to different risks; (h) as to the powers, duties, rights and liabilities of such a body and of other persons, including—(i) its directors and other officers;(ii) its shareholders, and persons who hold the beneficial title to shares in it without holding the legal title;(iii) its auditor;(iv) any persons holding assets for it;(v) any persons who act or purport to act on its behalf;(i) as to the merger of one or more such bodies and the division of such a body;(j) for the appointment and removal of an auditor for such a body;(k) as to the winding up and dissolution of such a body;(l) enabling the FCA or the PRA to apply to a court for an order removing or replacing any director of, or person holding assets for, such a body;(m) for the carrying out of investigations by persons appointed by the FCA or the PRA.(5) If regulations under subsection (3) make the provision mentioned in subsection (4)(e) references in subsection (4) to a body include its constituent parts.
(6) Regulations under subsection (3) may—
(a) impose criminal liability;(b) confer functions on the FCA or the PRA (including the functions of making rules and giving directions);(c) authorise the FCA or the PRA to require the Council of Lloyd’s to exercise functions on its behalf (including functions conferred otherwise than by the regulations);(d) confer jurisdiction on any court or on the Tribunal;(e) provide for fees to be charged by the FCA or the PRA in connection with the carrying out of any of their functions under the regulations (including fees payable on a periodical basis);(f) modify, exclude or apply (with or without modifications) any primary or subordinate legislation (including any provision of, or made under, this Act);(g) make consequential amendments, repeals and revocations of any such legislation;(h) modify or exclude any rule of law.(7) The provision that may be made by virtue of subsection (6)(f) includes provision extending or adapting any power to make subordinate legislation.
(8) Regulations under subsection (3) may provide that a reference in the regulations to, or to any provision of, legislation (including an EU instrument and legislation of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom), is to be construed as a reference to that legislation or that provision as amended from time to time.
(9) In this section—
“investment” includes any asset, right or interest;“primary legislation” means an Act, an Act of the Scottish Parliament, a Measure or Act of the National Assembly for Wales, or Northern Ireland legislation;“subordinate legislation” means an instrument made under primary legislation.(10) If a statutory instrument containing regulations under this section would, apart from this subsection, be treated as a hybrid instrument for the purposes of the Standing Orders of either House of Parliament, it is to proceed in that House as if it were not a hybrid instrument.”
(3) In section 429(2) (regulations subject to the affirmative procedure), after “262,” insert “284A,”.”
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, Amendment 29 introduces a power into the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 for the Treasury to make regulations relating to transformer vehicles. Transformer vehicles are used for risk-mitigation purposes, particularly in the insurance and reinsurance industry. The Government plan to use this power to implement a new framework for insurance-linked securities business.
In an insurance-linked securities transaction, an insurer contracts with an entity specifically established to take on insurance risk. These entities come within the definition of “transformer vehicles” in the amendment. The insurer transfers risk to the transformer vehicle and the vehicle raises collateral to cover that risk by issuing securities to capital market investors. The vehicles exist solely to transform risk into capital market instruments and to compensate the insurer should the insured event take place. Investors receive a return from the premiums paid by the insurer and the collateral is returned to investors if the insured event does not take place. Unlike conventional reinsurers, ILS transactions do not pool risk. The transformer vehicle takes on a specific risk and typically holds collateral that is at least equal to the risk transferred. This key safeguard will be a firm requirement in the UK framework. The framework will ensure that insurers can rely on the protection they arrange through ILS deals.
Insurance-linked securities are now an important and growing part of the global specialist reinsurance market. By enabling insurers to access the capital markets as an alternative way of reinsuring risk, this business has brought additional capacity to parts of the reinsurance market. But despite the importance of London as a global insurance hub, that growth has taken place elsewhere. In London Matters, a report by the London Market Group on the competitiveness of the London insurance market, the UK’s out-of-date regulatory framework for insurance-linked securities was highlighted as inhibiting London’s ability to compete as a reinsurance hub.
Therefore, the March 2015 Budget announced that the Treasury, the PRA and the FCA would work closely with the London market to develop a more effective framework for insurance-linked securities business. The London market established the insurance-linked securities task force, which is working with the Treasury and the financial regulators to design a fit-for-purpose regime. Work is ongoing, but it is clear that the Financial Services and Markets Act needs to be amended to provide for the introduction of detailed regulations which will implement the new framework. In particular, the Government intend to use the power to create a bespoke corporate structure for transformer vehicles which assume risk from insurers and reinsurers. This will ensure that these vehicles are robust and managed in a way so that they can meet their obligations to insurers and investors. Given that this is a rapidly evolving market, the power will enable the Treasury and financial regulators to keep the regulatory framework up to date.
The clause enables the regulatory arrangements of Lloyd’s of London to be updated, should that be needed to facilitate the Lloyd’s market adapting to ILS business or the use of transformer vehicles. If this requires amendments to the Lloyd’s Acts then the regulations concerned will be dehybridised, so that the amendments are not delayed in Parliament by the hybrid procedure. I am grateful to the Delegated Powers Committee for its report on this clause, which recommends that the clause be amended to ensure that the consent of the council of Lloyd’s is needed before the FCA or PRA can be enabled to require the council to carry out functions on their behalf. I fully understand that the committee would want to be reassured that those affected by the use of a dehybridising provision are afforded an alternative protection. The Government will therefore give careful consideration to the committee’s report.
Although the Government’s current plan is to introduce a framework focused on the insurance industry, it is possible that the use of transformer vehicles by non-insurance entities, for example a company seeking to mitigate the longevity risk associated with an employee pension scheme, may become more common in the future. The power provides the flexibility for regulation to keep pace with such market developments, should that be required.
Finally, I am pleased to say that the London Market Group, which represents London’s insurers and reinsurers, has welcomed this first step in implementing a new framework for ILS business. I beg to move.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, it is third time unlucky for the Government because we do not consider these amendments to be entirely technical and they contain some aspects on which we seek clarification. The Minister has already recognised the significance of the report by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which I know will be studied with care. I make the assumption that the Government will come back before or on Report with a clear response to the committee’s conclusions. If the Government do not act on them then I can assure the Minister that we will, as the committee was quite clear that it thought there should be an amendment to the legislation.
The noble Lord, Lord Ashton, has already indicated the extent to which the Government have looked at the issue in relation to the council of Lloyd’s. I therefore hope that we will have clarity on this matter on Report. We will of course look at his remarks today with the greatest care. I give the obvious indication that while we will not object to these amendments at this stage, we will be coming back to this issue and, more accurately, we hope that the Government will be coming back to it as well.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I note what the noble Lord has said and, as I said before, we are considering this carefully. As I think I indicated, we accept what the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has said. We are looking carefully at this and a response will be forthcoming before Report.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, both on his amendment, for which he has secured widespread support, including from this Bench, and on the way in which he detailed the key arguments behind it, which I know the Government will take seriously. It is somewhat unnecessary for me to fill in any of the interstices that the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, may have left—which were not many—because the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, has certainly emphasised the significant point, which is that British banking needs to be a good deal more diverse than it is at present.
After all, the Competition and Markets Authority disclosed its findings last month from its review of competition in the retail banking market and found—predictably—that the four largest banks had long dominated the British scene, stifling competition that would give consumers and businesses a better deal. We all know the limited success that has been obtained by the various reforms to make the switching of accounts easier. The British people, I am afraid, are somewhat inured to minor blandishments when it comes to their bank accounts, so there is a need for much more imaginary thought at the centre on how we can make our financial provision more diverse.
We have support from the Treasury Select Committee. The chair, Andrew Tyrie, has written to the CMA to ask it to report back before the Budget in March next year regarding the 8% surcharge on bank profits. He wants to know what impact that has had on the big four and what implications it has for the wider banking sector. It is clearly the case, he believes, that one size does not fit all. That phrase has obtained throughout this short debate and is one to which I entirely subscribe. The Minister will be all too well aware that the Building Societies Association has made it clear that the problems encountered by financial mutuals in recent years almost certainly would have been fewer if there had been greater diversity in the sector.
I think that the case for this amendment has been made strongly. No doubt the noble Lord will be withdrawing it on this occasion but the purpose of this debate is to give the Government the chance to show a constructive response to what we all recognise is a real issue with regard to British banking. The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, cited the German position. Is it not somewhat extraordinary that even under the so-called northern powerhouse, our great cities do not have individual banks? They no longer have individual building societies, either. That says something about the structure of finance in this country, which surely the Government should address in the context of a Bill about the most significant banking structure of them all—the Bank of England.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who contributed to the debate. I have listened carefully to the interesting points, particularly on banking diversity and availability, especially for SMEs, made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and the noble Lord, Lord Davies, but I will concentrate on the amendment in hand.
I am glad to say that noble Lords are pushing at an open door—or, at least, one that is slightly ajar. This amendment would add a duty to the PRA to consider diversity of ownership model and size alongside its competition objectives. For the FCA, the amendment would add diversity of ownership model and size to the list of factors to which it may have regard as part of its competition objective.
Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL]
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Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)
My Lords, I would like to make a couple of points in support of the views of the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, made the case that the court did not do very much; that was precisely the problem. It had the job of oversight and it is a matter of record that it did not do that job well. The feeling was therefore that the Bank was engaged in groupthink. It did not allow the doors of the Bank to be opened and for the outside world to understand what the Bank was doing. That closed community failed. Evidence to the Treasury Committee acknowledged that it had failed; the current governor acknowledged that it had failed in a speech at Mansion House a number of months ago, when he made three detailed points about the areas in which it failed.
This body has failed. It therefore needs to ensure that that groupthink and closed mentality is disposed of, but that cannot be disposed of by shrinking. It has to ensure that there is a wider community looking over the Bank. After all, society depends on the decisions that the Bank makes, and it is extremely important that society has confidence in the Bank. This is not just a matter for the Bank, the directors and the governor or how he feels; this is a matter of democratic accountability to Parliament and societal involvement. As the noble Lord said, two years after a change with no examination is an unacceptable way to go about business. Let us get the doors of the Bank open and ensure that we have a wider engagement and a wider debate. That will do both the Bank and society good.
Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in this short debate. The general theme has been that the Government have not put forward a sufficient case for reducing the number of non-executives. I hope that by the end of the debate, we will have been able to elaborate on that. The noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, said that there seemed to be a pervasive feeling through the Bill that non-execs are a nuisance. That could not be further from the truth—good ones are essential, but too many non-execs are not effective. It is crucial to have very high-quality non-execs. I will come on to that as far as the court is concerned.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, that we have got the figures right in terms of what we have at the moment and what we are going to have, but I come to completely the opposite conclusions as a result of that. I will try my best to outline the Government’s feeling and will also refer, to a certain extent, to some of the points my noble friend made about the academic evidence and the experience of commercial firms, which show that sometimes reduced numbers are more effective.
As noble Lords are aware, the Bank of England Act 1998 states that the court can contain,
“not more than 9 non-executive directors”.
This Bill does not make any alteration to this provision. Before I dive into the detail, it may be helpful to remind the Committee what we are seeking to achieve: a court that is effective in scrutinising the actions of the Bank, holding executives to account, challenging their thinking and exercising its statutory functions. A number of noble Lords have cast this debate in terms of avoiding groupthink, which I agree is very important.
Given that, there are two important factors to bear in mind about the issue we are discussing here, both of which mitigate the risk of groupthink. The first is the number of non-executive directors on the court, which the noble Lord’s amendment focuses on. The second, but no less important, factor is the quality of non-execs on the court. Let me first address the issue of numbers. Within the terms of the current legislation as written, the Government plan to reduce the number of non-execs to two. This will not weaken the court; instead, it will strengthen it.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
Yes—by two, to seven. We think that will strengthen it, because the governance of the Bank will be enhanced by enabling the court to become a smaller, more focused unitary board, as several noble Lords have mentioned.
A smaller court is something the Treasury Select Committee advocated in its 2011 report, Accountability of the Bank of England. It recommended that the court’s membership be reduced to eight, emphasising that a smaller court would allow a diversity of views and expertise while still being an efficient decision-making body.
Our proposals exceed the size of court recommended by the Treasury Select Committee, but a court of 12 is significantly smaller than both the court’s original size of 24 and its size more recently, during the financial crisis, of 19.
Lord Eatwell
I am intrigued by the Treasury Select Committee’s recommendation of eight. Can the Minister tell us what would have been the composition among those eight recommended persons?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I fear I cannot. Can the noble Lord help us? The answer is, no, I cannot tell noble Lords that.
Baroness Kramer
Perhaps I could be helpful on that point. As the noble Lord will remember, this legislation is adding one more insider, so the balance with eight would have been five insiders versus three outsiders.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
The balance would change if we do what the Chancellor has decided to do—to reduce it to seven—but, as I will come on to, the flexibility is maintained to have nine. The legislation says “up to nine”, and nothing in the Bill changes that. We are still operating on the original number of “up to nine”. The amendment would make it exactly nine and reduce any flexibility.
My original point was that our suggestion is smaller than the Treasury Select Committee’s original number of 12, the court’s original size of 24 and its size during the crisis of 19. The size of the court was identified as a barrier to its effective functioning during the financial crisis. We think that a smaller board will better scrutinise the executive. With fewer non-executive directors, each member has greater opportunity to pose questions to executive members and to debate with them. A larger court can encourage a round table of individual speeches, rather than enabling back and forth discussions and challenge to the executive.
As Professor Capie, former official historian of the Bank of England, noted in his evidence to the Treasury Select Committee, historically, larger boards have often consisted of “simply observers or rubber-stampers”. This was supported by independent evidence from the Walker report, which suggested that the ideal size for a board tends towards 10 to 12 people. Our proposal for five executive and seven non-executive members sits within this range. The Walker report notes that boards larger than 12 people become less manageable and less effective.
The Bank itself has highlighted the benefits of reducing the size of the court. In its 2014 report, it said that,
“consistent with best practice in the private sector, the Bank sees the value of continuing to evolve towards a slightly smaller body, with a non-executive chair and majority”.
Undoubtedly, board sizes in the private sector are on average relatively small. For example, according to the Spencer Stuart board index, the average sizes of boards in 2014 in the US and UK were 10.8 and 10.5 respectively.
Our proposals therefore align the court with current best practice for a unitary board. However, I accept that best practice can, and often does, evolve over time. Therefore, as I said, the current wording provides flexibility, but no compulsion, to increase the number of non-executives up to nine if future evidence suggests that this would be beneficial. Similarly, and importantly, this flexibility will ensure continuity and transfer of knowledge during periods of flux between departing and joining non-executive directors, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, mentioned. But that is not the only reason for the change. We will retain the flexibility, but the normal number will be seven. Specifying that the court must contain an exact number of non-executives, as the amendment does, would lose those benefits.
Let me now turn to the quality of non-execs on the court, which is critical and was mentioned by several noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Flight. The court has been transformed over the last three years. The Chancellor sought to appoint the highest quality team with significant experience of running large organisations and expertise in matters relevant to the Bank. All non-execs are appointed by the Queen on the recommendation of the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The appointment process is run by the Treasury and regulated by the Office of the Commissioner of Public Appointments. It is in line with best practice, with open competitions held for all positions. The Government look far and wide for the best candidates, with roles advertised in the international press. The result is a board of the highest quality non-execs chaired by Anthony Habgood, one of the most experienced and respected company chairmen in the country.
I was asked by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, what consultation took place on reducing the number of non-executive directors. In its December 2014 publication, Transparency and Accountability at the Bank of the England, the Bank made the case for reducing the size of the court. The Government included the proposal to reduce the size of the court to seven in the July consultation paper, with the consultation closing in September. No respondents opposed the proposed reduction in the size of the court.
Baroness Kramer
Would the Minister remind us how many responses there were to that consultation?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
There were not that many, but I cannot tell the noble Baroness the exact number.
Baroness Kramer
I think the number was 14. Most people did not know it was there.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
So clearly it was not a burning issue. As my noble friend Lord Flight said, no member of the court is from a regulated firm—that is absolutely true—which ensures no conflicts of interest. We think that that is the correct way forward. Of course, they bring a wide amount of experience and there are many members of the court whose description is a “former” director of relevant parties, including banks.
Finally, who made the decision to reduce the number from nine to seven? That was made by the Chancellor, on the advice of the non-executive chairman of the Bank. The proposed composition of the court, as recommended by the Treasury Select Committee, was a total of eight: the governor, two deputy governors, an external chair and four other external members.
Lord Sharkey
Does that not make the point that it would give a clear majority to the external members?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
It would also be considerably smaller than what we propose today—which is one of the problems brought up by noble Lords. We are not going with that exact number but we will have a majority of externals with the flexibility to increase those by two—something the noble Lord’s amendment would remove.
We agree that the ability for independent scrutiny and challenge should not be compromised. We think that with seven high-quality non-executive directors this will not change. There will still be a majority of external members on the court, well equipped to scrutinise the actions of the Bank and hold the executive to account. My noble friend Lord Bridges and I are happy to meet with the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, if he would like to discuss this further, but in the mean time I hope that my explanation of the Government’s thinking will allow him to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Sharkey
I am afraid we have not heard any kind of compelling explanation as to why this reduction should take place or what its benefits might be. It is simply not enough to pray in aid, as the Minister did, the alleged size and efficiency ratio of commercial company boards. That is simply a category mistake. The Bank is not a commercial company. It has duties that no commercial company has, and it is more important in our national life than any private sector company.
The reduction proposed in the number of non-execs would completely change the culture in the court. But what is worse, as the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, has said, there is simply no evidence to support the case for the reduction. Evidence may arise out of the consultation, but I am not quite clear about that—and that may need at some later stage a little more explanation. I am happy to take up the Minister’s offer to meet, but I am certain, too, that we will want to return to this issue on Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Bank of England and Financial Services Bill [HL]
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Lord Tunnicliffe
My Lords, I will try not to make this a habit, but I find the case persuasive.
Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con)
My Lords, this has been a brief debate. I am sorry that it falls to me yet again to argue numbers with the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and I am afraid to disagree with his argument.
This is a superficially simple amendment which seeks to change the balance of the membership of the Financial Policy Committee by increasing the number of external members from five to six. The noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, was again correct in outlining the numbers on the FPC as they stand today: namely, the governor, the three deputy governors and the executive director for financial stability strategy and risk, who are the internal members; and the five other members, who I would describe as external, who are the chief executive of the FCA and the four members appointed by the Chancellor. There is also a non-voting member from the Treasury. This gives an equal balance of voting membership between the Bank executives and those from outside the Bank. The Bill adds two new members to the committee—the deputy governor for markets and banking and an additional external member—which preserves the existing balance between the executive and non-executive members of the committee.
We think that that is appropriate: it strikes the right balance between ensuring sufficient input from the Bank of England’s executive and internal expertise and supporting the external, non-executive members’ role of providing a challenge to members’ thinking. Crucially, the committee can draw on the expertise and resources of the Bank, while the non-executive members provide a strong challenge function by bringing outside perspectives and expertise to the committee’s discussions and preventing groupthink.
Baroness Kramer (LD)
Although this has been a brief debate, it is an important one. Can the Minister describe why he takes the view that the chief executive of the FCA is not inherently different from a fully outside member of the FPC, particularly when prior legislation would indicate that there is a close family relationship?
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I am certainly able to do that; I was just coming to that very point, I assure the noble Baroness.
We think that the balance of membership is appropriate, as the work of the FPC is one of the key elements of the Bank’s strategy to meet the financial stability objective. It is therefore essential that the Bank can be held accountable for its performance against that objective. The effect of the amendment would be to place the committee outside the Bank’s control.
Baroness Kramer
I am sorry to interrupt the Minister again, but he said that the effect of this would be to place the committee outside the Bank’s control, so he is describing the chief executive of the FCA as part of the Bank family. That is the logic of that sentence.
Lord Ashton of Hyde
I am sorry, but I do not think it is. If we say that the CEO of the FCA is one of the external members, that places it outside. I am coming to the question of whether you can describe the non-executive member as also external; I promise that I will come to that in a minute.
We should also consider the overall size of the committee. The noble Lord’s amendment would bring the number of voting members on the FPC to 13. Setting aside any superstitious concerns, there is a risk that the committee could become unwieldy and cumbersome. This could be particularly problematic for the FPC, as it is required to seek to make decisions via consensus, which of course becomes more difficult as it grows in size. The amendment would make the FPC the largest of the Bank’s policy committees. The MPC has only nine voting members and the PRC is likely to have 12 members. I believe that the additions to the FPC will be a net benefit to the FPC, but further expansion risks tipping the scales toward a detrimental impact on the workings of the committee.
I come to the question of the CEO of the FCA, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, referred. We are in no doubt that the FCA CEO should be counted as an external member of the FPC. The CEO of the FCA is not an executive of the Bank, and the FCA is entirely separate from the Bank.
There is no doubt that having the FCA CEO on the FPC is of huge value to the committee. It is true that her membership of the FPC brings particular benefits in terms of regulatory co-ordination, but she also has extensive relevant expertise, and, crucially, she brings an independent viewpoint and external challenge from outside Threadneedle Street, because the FCA is a completely independent body with a different set of objectives. It is also worth noting that this reciprocates the arrangement on the FCA board, where the chief executive of the PRA is counted, alongside the Treasury-appointed chair and the other members, as a non-executive. The CEO of the FCA is therefore eminently qualified to operate as an external, non-executive member of the PRA board.
In summary, the Government believe that it is appropriate to have an equal number of internal and external members, as the committee has today. This will ensure sufficient input from the Bank of England as executive and internal Bank of England expertise, while supporting the external, non-executive members’ role of providing a challenge to members’ thinking.
With those explanations in mind, I should be grateful if the noble Lord would withdraw his amendment.