Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Report stage
Tuesday 11th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who spoke in this important debate, and particularly, of course, the noble Lord, Lord Alton. He and I have worked together on a number of these issues, particularly in relation to enforced organ donation in Xinjiang province, and I have always been tremendously grateful for the advice and support he has given.

On this debate in general, I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Russell, that behind it lies more fundamental changes that we need to see, including his point about the development, where we can, of a UK supply chain. He said that he is going to support the noble Lord, Lord Alton; I understand and accept that.

Let me say at once that the Government wholeheartedly agree on the importance of confronting human rights abuses, including modern slavery, in energy supply chains, and we are committed to tackling the issue. I am glad that the meeting with Jürgen Maier was helpful; he is providing some strong leadership in this area. I have had also had discussions with the noble Lord, Lord Alton, between Committee and Report, but we have not quite found a way through as yet.

My understanding is that Great British Energy will already have a range of tools in place to support its efforts to identify and tackle human rights abuses in its supply chain. Indeed, as a state-owned company, it will be expected not only to abide by but to be a first-in-class example of adherence to the UK’s existing legislation and guidance. We support voluntary due diligence approaches taken by UK businesses to respect human rights across their operations and supplier relationships, in line with the UN’s Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights and the OECD guidelines for multinational enterprises.

The noble Lord, Lord Offord, referred to legislation passed by his Government, which I readily acknowledge. Under Section 54 of the Modern Slavery Act 2015, Great British Energy will be required to prepare a slavery and human trafficking statement for the financial year, in relation to its turnover of £36 million or more, outlining the steps it has taken in the financial year to ensure that slavery and human trafficking is not taking place in any of its supply chains nor any part of its business. Once the Procurement Act 2023 comes into force—on which the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and I shared a common endeavour—it can reject bids and terminate contracts with suppliers which are known to use forced labour themselves or anywhere in their supply chain.

We will also use the modern slavery assessment tool known as MSAT to assess the supply base for modern slavery risks. With these tools, I am assured and am confident that Great British Energy will not ignore credible evidence of modern slavery and human rights abuses. I believe that its exemplary adherence to this legislation, which the Government rightfully expect, will not only ensure that the company is doing all in its power to combat modern slavery but also pull up the standards expected of the UK’s wider energy industry under the existing legislative landscape. I think the chair of GBE has reinforced that point.

It is our belief that any action that has to be taken must not only be robust but—to take the point of the noble Earl, Lord Russell—take a whole-of-government and society approach. We expect UK businesses, including GBE, to do everything in their power to remove any instances of forced labour from their supply chain. Our guidance and international principles encourage business to remediate or mitigate when instances are uncovered, such as industry collaboration or improved internal purchasing practices. Amendments 18 and 19 would not allow GBE the opportunity for mediation; they would only penalise it.

There is a practical question around how these amendments might work in practice and what their impacts on GBE and its operations would be. They do not define what is meant by “credible evidence”, and this could be left open to interpretation. I am not trying to be pedantic here because, clearly, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, suggested in his opening remarks that he wanted to give the Commons the opportunity to debate this matter. I agree that we should not be too pedantic about the wording of the amendment, but I wanted to mention that as one of the practical consequences of enacting the amendments as they are currently drafted.

Combating human rights abuses, such as modern slavery, across the whole energy industry is a much more effective way to make progress than applying measures on a company-by-company basis, as these amendments would do. We recognise that the landscape has changed since the Modern Slavery Act was introduced; that is why we are committed to improving our response to modern slavery and will set out next steps more broadly in due course.

I should inform the House that we are partnering with an expert institution to provide detailed and relevant information on what modern slavery statements should cover, including practical advice for businesses to go beyond compliance with their legal requirements and actively identify and remedy instances of modern slavery in their supply chains. GBE will follow that, of course.

The noble Lord, Lord Alton, expressed some scepticism about the Solar Taskforce. Having been relaunched by my department, it will focus on identifying and taking forward the actions needed to develop resilient, sustainable and innovative supply chains that are free from forced labour. The aim is to support the significant increases needed in the deployment of solar panels to meet our ambition of seeing a large increase by 2030.

More widely, the Government are taking action to ensure that our clean energy supply chains are resilient as a key priority in the transition to net zero, in both de-risking the delivery of our carbon budgets and maximising the economic benefits from the transition. This will involve domestic action, such as investment in manufacturing, and international action, such as removing trade barriers and collaborating with our allies.

With respect to the speech from the noble Lord, Lord Alton, I know that the House wants to see action from the Government. I can assure noble Lords that my department is working collaboratively across Whitehall on this important issue, including with the Department for Business and Trade and the Home Office, to assess and monitor the effectiveness of the UK’s existing measures, alongside the impacts of new policy tools that are emerging to tackle forced labour in global supply chains, including in the energy sector. We are not ignoring the points made by the noble Lord. We take this seriously and, as I said, we are strongly looking at this across Whitehall at the moment.

I turn to the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, to which she spoke so eloquently. Let me be clear: the UK’s existing sustainability criteria put limits on the greenhouse gas emissions of the supply chain and already include environmental protections. Where biomass is sourced from forests, the land criteria include requirements around sustainable harvesting and maintaining productivity. This ensures that forests are managed well and in a sustainable manner, as carbon dioxide emissions released during combustion are absorbed continuously by new forest growth. The statement that we made on Monday in relation to biomass reflects how the Government are moving. They might not be moving as fast as the noble Baroness wants, but we are, I think, moving in the direction that she wishes to see.

I remind the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, that, as a public body, Great British Energy already has a duty to conserve and enhance biodiversity. The noble Earl, Lord Russell, was right to remind me of my own Amendment 38, which we will come on to at some point this evening. I do not want to repeat what I am going to say later, but it is a very important amendment and I hope it will provide considerable reassurance to the House.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. I have taken my own remarks at something of a gallop this evening, but this has been a very worthwhile debate. It was good to hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, the noble Earl, Lord Russell, and the noble Lords, Lord Wigley, Lord Teverson and Lord Offord. The fact that there was so much agreement across the House about the scourge of modern-day slavery and the failure, 10 years later, of the 2015 legislation to deal with this problem effectively demonstrates the truth of what has been—

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, in my remarks, I accepted that life has moved on since 2015. The Government know that we need to look at this further, which is why we are working across Whitehall at the moment. I wanted to assure the noble Lord that we do not ignore the fact that we need to move on from the 2015 legislation.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

I accept that it is not the Minister who is at fault here. However, whether there is the same enthusiasm elsewhere across government is something that we can all speculate on. He will remember that, in Committee, I drew to his attention the report on 26 December 2024 in the Financial Times linking 14 companies to events in Xinjiang involving $1.4 billion of exposure.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I am sorry to challenge again the noble Lord but, seeing my noble friend Lord Collins on the Bench, I assure the noble Lord that I speak for the Government in saying that we are very concerned about this. We are not at all being complacent.

Great British Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Committee stage
Monday 13th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, we rely on agreed definitions as to whether an energy is clean. The noble Lord mentioned biomass and Drax. He will know that the Government’s view, which his party also took when in government, is that the carbon absorbed by the forestry that replaces what has been transported to Drax more than covers the carbon expended in the process of bringing it to Drax, including the use of shipping. For 14 years, the party opposite accepted that this was an appropriate definition.

I turn to my noble friend Lord Berkeley’s amendment, on the risk to off-grid households and the value of renewable liquid fuels to these households. The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, also covered that point, and I listened with great care to what both had to say. Clearly, we want fuel-poor and off-gas-grid homes to benefit from the transition to net zero. The current energy company obligation includes incentives to deliver measures such as low-carbon heating to off-gas-grid rural homes in Scotland and Wales. Phase 2 of the home upgrade grant provides energy efficiency upgrades and low-carbon heating measures to low-income households living in the worst performing off-gas-grid homes in England in order to tackle fuel poverty.

We recognise that renewable liquid fuels could play a role in decarbonising heat off the gas grid. We therefore expect to prioritise the use of renewable liquid fuels for the small number of homes that are not readily suitable for electrification, as these have the fewest options to decarbonise through alternative low-carbon technologies. My noble friend Lord Berkeley suggested a meeting on this; I am very happy to engage with him and, indeed, with the noble Lord, Lord Bruce.

Amendment 76, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Offord, and Amendment 77, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield, relate to sourcing materials for GBE projects from the domestic supply chain. Adding the proposed detail to the Bill would too narrowly restrict the company in carrying out its activities, halting the potential feasibility of projects where UK sourcing is not currently possible.

On jobs, I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, concerning the importance of the UK continental shelf and the need for an orderly transition. My daughter supported her career as a wireline engineer in the oil and gas industry working out of Aberdeen, and I am well aware of the importance of the sector, what it has contributed to the UK economy and the skills and dedication of the people working there. As we have described, we want an orderly and just transition.

GB Energy will be committed to helping drive the growth of supply chains in the UK to accelerate the deployment of key UK energy projects. It is important, however, that we comply with the international trading rules that the UK is bound by, such as prohibitions on requiring local content contained under various agreements under the WTO.

Amendment 80, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Petitgas, requires the Secretary

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but I wonder if I can press him further on the issue of jobs and the impact on our own economy when countries run, in their own jurisdictions, the kind of slave labour arrangements that I and others referred to earlier. He will have seen the information about the loss of electric vehicle-related jobs because of the flooding of the market—we do not have any tariffs on those vehicles, whereas every other G7 country does. He will know that, in the last quarter, the trade deficit with China was some £32 billion but at no time since 1995 has there ever been surplus on our side of the equation. How can we justify, therefore, pouring more money into the economy of a country that relies on slave labour? It cannot just be left to companies, even Great British Energy, to identify whether a country is using slave labour or not; surely that is a matter for the Government, too.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

The noble Lord raises matters of great geopolitical importance and importance to the UK’s economy. He will have seen that my right honourable friend the Chancellor has been in China in the last few days, seeking to engage that country in relation to economic co-operation and development, within appropriate security safeguards. We want to see jobs in the energy sector developed as much as possible in the United Kingdom, but equally, we are operating in a global economy. For very good reasons, we are concerned about the introduction of tariffs which may inhibit international trade, and we must also be mindful of the economic value-for-money issues that clearly have to come into play in this area.

Let me return to the Bill and what is appropriate for us to include in it. We believe that this issue is a matter for GBE, working within the constraints set through the statement of priorities and through Clause 3, and also in relation to the further work we are going to do. We have mentioned solar, and noble Lords are right that much of the raw material for solar panels comes from China, although it is British companies working in the United Kingdom that benefit more from the value of the work on solar installations.

Turning to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Petitgas, as a publicly owned company, GBE will be held accountable through regular reporting to my department. It will be subject to HM Treasury’s value-for-money guidelines, its investments will be subject to safeguards and risk assessments, and it will invest in the private sector to share risk and reward.

On green taxonomy, a decision about how a potential UK green taxonomy could be used or applied has not yet been finalised. The Government have launched a consultation to gather views on the value of the case for a UK green taxonomy, and it will close on 6 February.

We need to come back to what Clause 6 is for as a whole. It is a backstop which one hopes would never have to be used; it is not a way to encourage the Secretary of State to micromanage a company that we very much want to be operationally independent.

Energy Costs for Businesses

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Tuesday 17th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, first, of course I very much agree with the noble Earl in wishing to see a reduction in the cost of energy, particularly electricity, for our businesses. We believe that in the long term—and in the medium term, to 2030—clean power is the way to do it. He raises a very important point: one of the responses, as he will have seen in the US, is the linking of heavy energy users, which can be companies such as Amazon, with their data centres, to nuclear power generation through advanced modular reactors. Of course, the other very important issue is getting connections to the grid, which is why the clean power action plan is so important in relation to speeding up those connections.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, following the very helpful reply which the Minister gave during the earlier stages of the Great British Energy Bill on the subject of slave labour, can he say what further consideration he has given to the dilemma of purchasing solar panels that have been made in a state accused by the House of Commons of committing genocide and using slave labour in the Muslim areas of Xinjiang?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, as ever, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for raising these very serious matters and particularly the plight of the Uighurs in Xinjiang province, which we have debated. He knows from my response in the Great British Energy Bill that we are looking at this very carefully. He is right that there is a tension, and clearly many of our solar panels come from China with all the attendant issues that this involves. But we have established the Solar Taskforce to look into the issue of supply chain, and we will be taking very seriously the points that the noble Lord has raised.

Domestic Solar Panels

Debate between Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath

Monday 25th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, we are not moving away at all from the idea of a solar revolution. The noble Earl will know that, in its scenarios for 2030, the National Energy System Operator—NESO—reckons that we will need 47 gigawatts by that time. We are committed to publishing a clean power action plan, which will embrace solar plans, very soon. The Solar Taskforce is there to provide clear advice and actions on how we will take that forward. What the noble Earl said about French car parks was interesting. There has been an easing up of development rights in this country in relation to that. On the 1.5 million homes that we pledged to build in the lifetime of this Parliament, we are in close discussion with our colleagues across government about mandation, and we very much take his point on that.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, I was indebted to the Minister for his courteous reply to us at the end of the Second Reading debate a week ago. He will recall that I raised with him specifically the use of Uighur slave labour in the manufacture of solar panels in Xinjiang, and the use of 25,000 children in child labour in the DRC in lithium production, which is essential to our green technology. The Minister was unable to answer some of the questions I put to him during that debate. Will he undertake for his officials to write and give replies, so that we can consider them before Committee? Will he place a copy of the replies in the Library of your Lordships’ House?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

I think the Lord will recollect that he asked me rather a lot of questions and, given that my winding-up speech was 20 minutes, with the best will in the world, I said that I would write to him. On the general principle, he knows that I have long shared his concern, particularly about Xinjiang province and the appalling use of the Uighurs. We understand those issues and are committed to tackling them. We have given guidance on the risk to business of trading in Xinjiang province, and we have pointed out the penalties for those who fail to report under the Modern Slavery Act. The noble Lord will find an invitation to meet in the next two days to discuss those issues.