Windsor Framework (Constitutional Status of Northern Ireland) Regulations 2024

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Tuesday 13th February 2024 Lords Chamber

What we do not need are statutory instruments. These are nice fluffy documents, with some quite helpful things in them, but it is just all words about good relationships with the British Government and their support for the union. We need a Prime Minister and Government who will stand up for the United Kingdom against the European Union and recognise that we voted to leave the European Union, but that Northern Ireland has been left in the European Union for so many aspects of its work and life. That is where the real problem is going to come over the next month or two.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, one of the strengths of your Lordships’ House is that it can look at legislation with a microscope and draw back and look at the larger picture. I want to try to do the latter for a few minutes.

There is not much doubt that the reason that we are addressing these statutory instruments, and indeed the wider question, is as a consequence of Brexit. Without Brexit, none of these issues would have been around. The majority of people in Northern Ireland did not vote for Brexit—they voted to remain—so when we talk about the people of Northern Ireland wanting this, that or the other, one of the things we should remember is that they did not want Brexit.

The consequences of Brexit were all known in advance. They were not all paid attention to in advance—some people did not want to see what the consequences were—but they were there to be seen. Ironically, the idea of Brexit was supposed to be that we would be free in the United Kingdom—whatever exactly that meant. But what do we find so many years later? That we cannot talk about anything at all without paying attention to Brexit and giving off about the fact that we cannot ignore the European Union and we wish we could. That is what I hear, but we cannot ignore it.

The reason for the protocol was not to address problems in Northern Ireland; it was—and I have said this many times—that a consequence of Brexit was to damage the relationship with the European Union and the United States. After a couple of Prime Ministers not making much of a show of things, Prime Minister Rishi Sunak realised that the key thing for him to do was to repair the relationships with Europe and the United States, because, despite all the talk of being able to have lots of agreements, co-operation and all sorts of things, it was not possible at all; you have to have relationships with these two powerful entities.

The idea that the wishes of some of the people of Northern Ireland should drive the interests and decisions of the British Prime Minister and the wider world is not very realistic. We end up having to address the reality and the consequences. We can be cross about it, and I understand that. We can feel let down, even betrayed, and I understand that. But in the real world there are consequences and we have to try to find some way of addressing them.

Another thing I have heard about is inclusivity. Of course, the Good Friday agreement was not inclusive, because the DUP and the UKUP, as it was at that time, walked out. They were not part of the Good Friday agreement; they never supported it. In fact, there was talk about the only thing that ever changed, but actually there were changes under the St Andrews agreement and they turned out to not be a very good idea in the long run for some of the people who wanted to see those changes. For example, it brought about the fact that we have a Sinn Féin First Minister, which is not something that some of the people who demanded changes would have wanted to see. We have to be very careful what we ask for.

It is also the case that the whole structure of the Good Friday agreement and the Assembly was not entirely inclusive. It included unionists and nationalists—and the noble Lord, Lord Bew, was talking about the two communities—but there is an emergent third community, which has a very strong view about things and which is not partisan unionist and not partisan nationalist. It takes a view that what we want to do is to find what is in the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland at the particular point when that generation is making a decision. At the moment, that may well be to stay within the United Kingdom, and in a generation or two generations’ time a different decision may be taken. It is not a partisan view, but the whole structure of the Assembly’s voting arrangements is not inclusive from that point of view.

Some people will not sign up for agreements—and almost all of us at one point or another do not want to sign up for an agreement—but the one thing we must understand is that, when we do not like an agreement or want an arrangement, the solution is not to bring down the whole system of government. If we do not agree with something in Westminster, we vote against it and we argue against it, and we try to persuade people of it, but we do not bring Westminster down, because that would bring chaos. Both Sinn Féin and the DUP have found ways of bringing down the structure of governance in Northern Ireland, and it has not made for a better life for the people of Northern Ireland or for more stability in Northern Ireland. We have to remember that. I say to the Minister, and to any future Minister on the other Benches who may have the responsibility, that we need to end the notion that, if you do not like what is happening, the solution in Northern Ireland is to bring down the whole system of government. Whatever else happens, we have to find a way of making sure that that does not happen.

I have a good deal of sympathy with some of the things that have been said on the other Benches, particularly the presentation by the noble Lord, Lord Dodds. There is a great deal of truth in what he says. Promises have been made, undertakings have been given and a certain spin has been presented about what is said in these documents, what the outcome of them is and so on. He is quite right. But the question is: what is the alternative?

I have said a number of times, in your Lordships’ House and in other places, that in my political judgment—we can all be wrong—the people who need a Northern Ireland Assembly most are the pro-union people of Northern Ireland. That is the only place where they will really have a platform to express their views and have their say. It is absolutely not an unlimited say, but at least it has the possibility of being expressed. That is why I have said, on a number of occasions, that, without an Assembly, there will be a drift towards what I have called de facto joint authority, not de jure—we will not see votes and things like that. What will happen? The people on this side of the water will find themselves wanting to co-operate with others who have a more powerful economy and position in the world than Northern Ireland on its own, and that is where the drift of politics will go.

I understand the protest and the anger, and that things do not look as they were meant to and so on. But there is a sense in which Sir Jeffrey Donaldson has tried to save unionist people from themselves, in a way, and from what some of them were trying to do. There is a limit to where protests can take you, and they can take you to the point of self-destruction. At some cost to his own skin, I suspect, Sir Jeffrey has pulled things back and said, “Look, this is the best I can get. I’ve tried really hard—I honestly have—and this is absolutely the best that I can do. You may not like it and you may be disappointed in it, but I’m trying to do the best for Northern Ireland”. I think he probably has done the best that he can do, and we have to see it in that context and in the wider and longer context: the question of what the relationships will be further down the line with this country, with our other neighbours, with a changing global economy, with a changing demography in Northern Ireland and with a changing set of views among the different groups of people in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland is not a homogenous entity, and those people have to find a way of living together with their differences. That is a real challenge. The whole world has not found a way of living with difference, which why we are hurtling into the third global conflict at the moment. Actually, Northern Ireland is finding its way out of a conflict. It is an awful struggle, and it is very difficult and extremely painful, and it will not necessarily bring the outcome that any particular group wants. But now, and in the future, it is a place where people are not being killed, children are not being left fatherless and motherless, and parents are not frightened about their children going out for the evening because they might not come back. That is a change for the better.

For me, it is not the detail of these instruments but the symbolism that has given the possibility of getting stability within Northern Ireland, which is in the interests of all the people of Northern Ireland—albeit that almost every section and group has had to make some sacrifice and compromise in the interests of that better future.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, and I will do a bit of both the things he mentioned: look at the detail and, I hope, look at the bigger picture. Northern Ireland has had to endure another two years of rudderless governance at a time of the worst cost of living crisis in living memory and of burgeoning waiting lists—the noble Lord, Lord Hain, will know that I have raised this issue so many times in this House.

I was always opposed to the boycott of the institutions at Stormont. For unionism to adopt Sinn Féin tactics never seemed to be a strategic good idea to me. Of course, I refer to the previous three-year collapse of Stormont brought about by republicans between 2017 and 2020. The big difference between those two periods of collapse has been the outcomes. Sinn Féin got what it wanted with the language legislation, while the DUP failed to shift the border in the Irish Sea, returning to Stormont with the protocol/Windsor Framework unaltered. All this chaos is due to the disastrously negotiated Brexit deal. None of the legislative contrivances before us tonight would have been necessary had we remained in the EU, or had there been a properly prepared and effectively negotiated departure of the UK from the EU.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

I wonder if I might just respond to that point. It seems to me that Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England are important separate jurisdictions with their own statute books and so on. That is not the case for some of the other areas that the noble Lord refers to. The point I was making was that when people talk about the people of Northern Ireland wanting this, that and the other thing, one of the things that they did not want—it is right that the Scots did not want it either—was to leave the European Union, with all the consequences. That was the point.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

I accept what the noble Lord is saying. Are he and others suggesting that Scotland should get the same as we got and that it should receive the same benefit that we are told we have got? I know in fact that Scotland has been suggesting it should be getting it, because it thinks we are getting something that it did not get. You cannot have it both ways. The parties across this House that have been in government, those leading parties in this House, realise that the United Kingdom went into the referendum as a United Kingdom. We went into Europe as a United Kingdom. We were withdrawing as a United Kingdom—not parts here and parts there. It is not a patchwork quilt that we are talking about. We are talking about the rights of the peoples of the United Kingdom to make the decision. Just because some people do not like the decision that was made, they cannot suggest that it was not done in a democratic way.

The Northern Ireland protocol cut our Province off from the rest of the United Kingdom economically and handed political power over a part of the United Kingdom to the EU. Because of this, the DUP and my party colleagues refused to implement a policy that deliberately undermined our precious union and our right to trade on the same footing as Great Britain. I stand by that decision without apology. The Northern Ireland Assembly was suspended and did not function for two years. It was only through the actions of the DUP that the Government and the EU sat up and listened to the legitimate concerns of unionism. Up to that moment, they seemed to have only one concern—to listen to the endless demands of republicans.

Now, after two years, the Government have produced the Command Paper Safeguarding the Union and the two statutory instruments we are debating today, but there are questions that must honestly be asked and answered. Do these fully address the issues confronting unionists? Do they, for example, stop the damage done by the Northern Ireland protocol and the Windsor Framework with reference to the free movement of trade between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, and do we now have the right to trade on the same footing as GB? Do they restore the constitutional rights to the people of Northern Ireland that have been totally undermined by the protocol and Windsor Framework, and have they restored our equal citizenship as British citizens, which has been eroded?

We were told that these measures were vital for the restoration of the Northern Ireland Assembly, but how does this equate with the Assembly being already restored before we in your Lordships’ House were granted a chance to scrutinise or debate one line of their content or their ever becoming law—because they are not law. We have to debate and pass it here. Therefore, how did this happen? One has to ask what was the undue haste—or was scrutiny of the details contained in these SIs the last thing the Government wanted before the Assembly was restored?

I place on record my appreciation for all the hard work that was done by my colleagues over many months and the due diligence that they applied to their labours, but I have no doubt that intolerable pressure was exerted on them by the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the NIO and, no doubt, the Irish Government—although the internal affairs of Northern Ireland are not the business of the Irish Government—to get the Executive up and running. Indeed, we had an example of the Government’s panic when the Secretary of State used the £3.3 billion as bait and deliberately withheld the rightful pay rise from our hard-working public sector workers, seeking to create a crisis. In my opinion, again, such an action was despicable.

Now, there is breaking news today. We learn that the Stormont Executive have been told by Westminster that they must raise at least £113 million of their own revenue in their next budget, and that this was a part of the £3.3 billion funding package. Is it not strange that we were not informed of those details until now? There is an old adage: “All that glitters is not gold”.

Over the weekend, an article was published in Northern Ireland media by the Belfast News Letter—written by three of my esteemed colleagues, two of whom are in this House—pointing out that scrutiny of the SIs before us today confirms that the border in the Irish Sea remains. I can tell the House that the genuine concerns expressed by my colleagues have already been expressed not only by myself but by the greater number of the parliamentary party, a majority of the Members of the House of Lords from my party, and indeed a number of MLAs. These concerns cannot be cast aside or overlooked but must be honourably answered, for they will not go away. Relying on promises made by a Government who have broken so many promises before will not suffice. We all know that the outworkings of these SIs will be evident for all to see, and no amount of flannel or spin from the Secretary of State or any other Minister will wish away the facts that the people see before their eyes.

I ask the Minister to tell the House if the green lanes legislation has gone or if it is completely untouched by these SIs. Is it true that, under the current legislation, companies moving goods outside the red lane must have an export number and must be subject to customs and SPS border paperwork, as well as subject to 100% documentary checks and 10% identity checks, moving to 5%? That is what Regulation 13(2) of the Windsor Framework (Retail Movement Scheme) Regulations 2023 requires. Lest anyone should doubt me, Regulation 13(2) states:

“From the date specified in the first column of the table below, the Northern Ireland competent authority must carry out an identity check by breaking the seal on at least the percentage of consignments of specified retail goods moving into Northern Ireland under the Scheme specified in relation to that date in the second column of that table”.


The minimum percentage of consignments on which identity checks must be carried out are, from 1 October 2023, 10%; from 1 October 2024, 8%; and, from 1 July 2025, 5%. Meanwhile, Regulation 12 requires 100% documentary checks. That is what the law requires—a law that I believe the SIs before us today, whose purpose is to give effect to the deal, do not amend, let alone appeal. I want the Minister to tell us whether or not that is true.

Companies moving goods from Wales do not have an export number. They do not have to fill in customs paperwork, simplified or otherwise. They are not subject to 100% documentary checks, and they do not have to go through border control posts where they are subject to identity checks of between 10% to 5%. Crucially, before 1 January 2021, companies moving goods to Northern Ireland from England, Wales or Scotland similarly did not need an export number. They did not need to fill in customs paperwork or be subject to 100% documentary checks and 10% to 5% identity checks at border control posts. The reason was very simple. At that time, Northern Ireland was not cut off from the rest of the United Kingdom by the Irish Sea border—a border that I fear the deal before us leaves in place. I ask the Minister: is this scenario as I have outlined it right or wrong? We do not need waffle, we need answers.

I notice people pointing to their watches, but this is the first time I have had the opportunity of looking at this in the House of Lords, and I am taking my time to deal with a matter that is so important to the people who live in Northern Ireland.

The protocol/Windsor Framework was designed to make special provision for Northern Ireland that was not made for the rest of the United Kingdom. While I welcome the east-west council, the greater flexibility in dealing with rest-of-world goods, and the commitment from the UK Government to stand with us if the EU refuses to move veterinary medicines, none of those things removes the border or restores Article 6 of the Act of Union, which remains as partially suspended today as it was this time last year.

Without apology, I am a unionist. That means that I prioritise the relationship between the different nations that occupy these islands. It means that, if borders have to divide us, I am on the side of the border that is in a relationship with England, Scotland and Wales, for it was not unionism that divided the island of Ireland but nationalism.

There has never been any question that some businesses have prioritised having no border to interrupt the flow of goods between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. But the idea that business as a whole prioritises the free movement of goods between Northern Ireland over the free flow of goods between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom is difficult to sustain in the context where most of the goods flowing into and out of Northern Ireland come from the United Kingdom.

In a world where one cannot have unfettered border-free access to both the rest of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland—indeed, if we could, this deal and the SI before us would have delivered it—then unionism exists to promote unfettered access with the rest of the United Kingdom. This deal prioritises something entirely different: unfettered border-free access to the Republic of Ireland, and fettered, bordered access to the rest of the United Kingdom. As I have said, I believe that there is still a border in the Irish Sea.

We must not forget that the existence of a border is a function of the more profound dividing of Northern Ireland from the rest of the United Kingdom, and its insertion in a different governance structure and subjection to the same laws as the Irish Republic in some 300 areas, rather than those of the United Kingdom—laws that are imposed on it from outside. I know that Parliament is sovereign, but simply telling us that does not make matters better, only worse. It tells us that even though Parliament has the power to insist that 1.9 million UK citizens are left to abide under 300 areas of law over which they have no influence or power to amend, His Majesty’s Government are happy to leave them as second-class citizens without the right to stand for election to try to stop some of the laws imposed on them by a foreign power.

The EU might prefer this way to protect the integrity of its single market, but in a context where another way of dealing with the issue exists—the mutual enforcement that my noble friend Lord Morrow mentioned—that does not involve the largest disenfranchisement exercise in the history of the western world or violate the consent principle of the Belfast agreement, and that does not involve disrespecting the territorial integrity of the United Kingdom, no responsible UK Government could ever countenance settling for anything less.

Northern Ireland Budget (No. 2) Bill

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

2nd reading & Committee negatived & 3rd reading
Thursday 14th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, like the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, I thank the Minister for presenting to us the context for the Bill and for the technical elements of it. I would not dispute with him any of the technical aspects he described: they are fairly straightforwardly part of such a budget Bill. However, in opening the Second Reading debate on the Bill in the other place, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Chris Heaton-Harris, said something that I do disagree with:

“The Government have brought forward this Bill because the Northern Ireland parties have been unable to form an Executive and subsequently set a budget”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/7/23; col. 101.]


That is not true. It is not that they were “unable” but that the DUP was unwilling to form an Executive. The DUP’s Paul Givan resigned as First Minister following its objections to the Northern Ireland protocol.

It is entirely justifiable to protest against policies you do not agree with, complain about them, argue about them, debate them, but it is not justifiable to bring down a whole form of government as a protest, to bring down the Assembly and the Executive. It is quite true that Sinn Féin did the same thing: it was unwilling to form an Executive with the DUP previously, and that too was unacceptable. But there is a difference: Sinn Féin had a serious dispute with its partners in government and was protesting against them. As I say, it was not justifiable, but the difference is that the DUP on this occasion does not have a dispute with Sinn Féin—at least, not on this issue—but with the UK Government. The dispute is with the Government fulfilling a policy of Brexit that the DUP itself had urged upon them and supported, even though these consequences were emphasised to them by many of us. Brexit is a policy that most people in the United Kingdom now regard as a failed policy, and the majority of people in Northern Ireland never voted for it or supported it in the first place.

I entirely accept that if the Executive and the Assembly were restored tomorrow it would not resolve the problems that are described in the budget Bill. The abnegation of responsibility has worsened the financial situation, but it would not be resolved if there was devolution immediately. There is a huge deficit, as the Minister said—a black hole of at least £660 million and it may well be more. The consequences for all public services, and indeed the private sector too, in Northern Ireland are enormous. The education system is in chaos and the health service, which is the part of the public sector I know best, is dissolving before our very eyes. It is not just a question of increasing waiting lists and there not being enough money; it is now becoming clear that many of those who, like me, were consultants in the National Health Service in Northern Ireland are leaving. Some of them are taking early retirement; some are going across the border, and some are leaving Northern Ireland altogether. Many young people are choosing not to come in and, if they do, not to take up positions as partners in general practice or as consultants in the NHS. These are not matters that will be resolved overnight or even by the provision of money. There is a fundamental, deep disruption and disturbance in the way Northern Ireland works.

Trying to deal with this is not going to be at all easy. On the question of funding, does the Minister truly believe that the amount of money being made available by His Majesty’s Treasury is enough for Northern Ireland? Is it the case that, if all these other issues we are talking about, such as devolution and better co-ordination, were to be dealt with, there would be enough money? I am not sure that there is enough money to provide for the kinds of services the people of Northern Ireland ought to be able to expect as part of the United Kingdom.

We mentioned the question of the governance problem. Let us not forget that this is not the first time that the DUP has chosen to make Northern Ireland a difficult place to run. After the Anglo-Irish agreement, the slogan used was to make Northern Ireland “ungovernable”. That is different thing, and of course it was the case at that time that there was a Government here in Westminster who were determined to make sure that the rule of law prevailed and that Northern Ireland was properly governed. There was a police service that insisted on ensuring the rule of law. My colleagues in the Alliance Party used the law to ensure that people were made to go back to work in governance.

What is happening now is not about Northern Ireland not being governable. It is about Northern Ireland being no longer workable as an entity, and that is a different thing. It is entirely possible for people to make Northern Ireland unworkable, but what sort of an outcome is there going to be when you bring down the house around you? Does that serve the best interests of the inhabitants? We are in a very serious place whenever Northern Ireland becomes an unworkable place, and that is what is happening now.

So what should we do? First, we must understand that the UK Government are the responsible Government. In the absence of devolution, and even in its presence, the UK Government retain the responsibility for governing Northern Ireland, and therefore they have to take responsibility for the shambles that Northern Ireland is now in. I have been warning for years that this was what was happening and what it was leading to. The longer the Government keep postponing addressing this, the worse the situation gets.

So how should the Government address this? They tried to persuade the DUP to go into government with Sinn Féin; the DUP said no. They are trying now to persuade the Government to take responsibility for the financial consequences and they have pointed out what a difficult problem that is going to be. In fairness to the DUP politicians, when they were in a position of responsibility for both raising and spending the money, for example when Peter Robinson was leading Castlereagh council, of course I disagreed with them on many things, as did my colleagues, but he did act responsibly both in raising and in using the necessary funds, and keeping the books balanced. That is not happening now.

We have to think seriously how we deal with this. There is a question as to whether politicians have to continually have a veto over how things are run. Maybe the Government need to engage more and more directly with those in the business community, because they are the only ones who are going to keep things going. They are not going to argue about the constitution. They are going to say, “Let’s see how we can keep business going and make the money that is necessary for the wheels to go round”.

It is also important that, if strand 1 and strand 2 cannot operate, the British Government co-operate with the Irish Government to try to make things work as well as possible. If they do not, it is the people of Northern Ireland who will suffer ultimately. Northern Ireland’s position in the United Kingdom will become less and less viable as a proposition. Some people in Northern Ireland would welcome that, but it is certainly not something that pro-union and unionist people want to see. The question is whether the Government are prepared to go beyond the rigidity and resistance of some of Northern Ireland’s politicians or whether there will be continued drift and, ultimately, disaster.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Organ and Tissue Donation) Bill

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 27th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I too thank the Minister for clearly presenting the elements of the Bill. I identify with the sentiments of sympathy and concern expressed for DCI John Caldwell and his family. I also identify with the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, who pointed out the need to consider not only those who do violence, as was apparently done by people from the so-called “new IRA” in the attempted murder of DCI John Caldwell, but those who threaten violence if they do not get their own way, in particular at the moment on the loyalist side. It is very important for us all in this House and the other place—indeed, all political representatives—to make it very clear, as the community is doing, that neither doing violence nor threatening to do violence is acceptable any more, if it ever was.

That is the sad side, the worrying side, the downside, of today. But, of course, there is a very positive element to this Bill. I want to take the second part of the Bill first, if I may, the so-called Dáithí’s law element. Some of us spend much of a lifetime trying to get a little piece of legislation passed. Young Dáithí, at a very early age, with the support of his parents Máirtín and Seph, and with friends and colleagues such as Fearghal McKinney, as the noble Baroness said, and others, has ensured not only that he is getting legislation passed but getting his name attached to it. That is a remarkable achievement and I hope it presages well for him in the future, making a positive contribution not only on his own behalf but on behalf of many other people as well. He started off life with difficulties, with hypoplastic left heart syndrome, and we all hope he will receive a transplant soon to enable him to be fit and lively and enjoy his life. But he has made a tremendous contribution, by endearing himself to people, by persuading them and by being such an attractive character.

I am delighted, as a doctor who came from Northern Ireland and qualified at Queen’s University Belfast, to see this legislation coming forward. But I am also a little bit sad. We are the last part of the United Kingdom to get this legislation, this so-called opt-out clause that enables us to have more organs for transplant. I am a little sad because it was not always so. One hundred years ago, in 1923, a young girl was born in Lurgan, County Armagh—the town I was born in—and she went on to be one of the world’s leading nephrologists. Her name was Molly McGeown. She qualified in medicine and, like many other women of the time, found it difficult to get an appointment as a consultant because the senior staff said they could not afford to employ people like her, a married woman with children, at that level. It is wonderful how things have changed, although I have to tell your Lordships that my own wife ran into similar problems herself when she was working as a young doctor. But things have changed, and they changed because of people like Molly McGeown. She was absolutely determined to go ahead, and she did. She established the renal unit at Belfast City Hospital; took forward renal dialysis; developed what became known as the Belfast recipe, a particular approach to renal dialysis that massively improved survival rates; developed a renal transplant programme that was of benefit not just to the people of Northern Ireland but way beyond; produced huge numbers of academic papers in her work as a professor at Queen’s University Belfast; and was a star, not just in Northern Ireland, not just in the NHS, but across the world.

So there was a time when we were able to lead things. Now, we find ourselves coming in behind the rest of the United Kingdom. It does not have to be like that, but part of the reason it is, is the political difficulties and stalemate. It is not that the legislation was not approved and passed by the Northern Ireland Assembly, or that politicians in Northern Ireland did not want to see such legislation. Of course they did, and they passed it, but other political difficulties supervened, and it got held back.

I hope that on this auspicious day, we are able to look forward to substantial progress, which takes us to the second part of my speech and the first part of the Bill: the difficulties of establishing an Executive and, because of that, the Assembly itself being in suspension. There were other, political ways that protests could have been made against what people did not want to see with the Northern Ireland protocol. It did not have to involve the suspension of the Assembly and the Executive, and everything that went with it. That this House is having to pass Dáithí’s law here shows just what a disaster it is for the people of Northern Ireland to have elected representatives but not be able to pass their own legislation—that it has to be done here and be delayed. I desperately hope we can move forward, and quickly.

When I heard about the Bill and the talk of a delay of another 12 months, my first reaction was for my heart to sink and I thought, “Oh, my goodness, another year waiting around for things to move forward”. But I often try to look on the bright side and I began to think, “Wait a minute, the Prime Minister may have something here. He may know perfectly well that he is not that far from an agreement; he may also know that that agreement might not be immediately accepted by some of those who have been negative about the Northern Ireland protocol; and he may well be creating a bit of space and time where it is possible for them to find their way towards supporting it”. Maybe some of them want to get to the other side of the local government elections before they will give support to it, or maybe there are some discussions that they need to have internally. Whatever the case, creating that space may give an opportunity for a positive result. I hope that that is the case.

I look at friends and colleagues on the other side of the Chamber and I very much hope that they will use their best offices and realise that if Northern Ireland’s Assembly is not put in place, and power devolves back to London, it will not be exercised by London alone: it will be exercised by London in collaboration with colleagues in Dublin. Therefore, I think we have to be thoughtful about the future and about the prospects, and I very much hope that they and their colleagues will find it possible to move quickly. We do not want to wait another 12 months until good legislation such as this is passed at the Northern Ireland Assembly, where it ought to be passed. We want to see it happening quickly, for the betterment of all the people of Northern Ireland.

So, I congratulate the Minister and his colleagues, especially today, on trying to take things forward in Northern Ireland and I very much hope that all of us, together, whatever our differing perspectives, can find ways of ensuring that Northern Ireland legislation is done, as much as possible, in Northern Ireland by the elected representatives there, for the betterment of all the people. Young Dáithí has given an example to us that the people who attacked John Caldwell can never give, because he has pointed a positive way forward for all of us and the next generation.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Rogan (UUP)]

I rise to support the amendment standing in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Empey. In common with my noble friend, I was there on Good Friday 1998 when the Belfast agreement was finalised. My role at that time was chair of the Ulster Unionist Party. My noble friend Lord Empey was our chief negotiator. He deserves much of the credit for that incredible achievement almost a quarter of a century ago.

It was not a perfect document—far from it. Negotiators from all parties involved in the talks, as well as the two Governments, had endless battles over the finer details of the agreement. Arguably, the biggest battles were around the release of terrorist prisoners, a concession that most unionists hated—we in the Ulster Unionist Party still do. However, the agreement was a compromise. We all had to make concessions that we would rather not have made. It was a delicate balancing act.

Every aspect of the Belfast agreement was critical to the final outcome, including the procedure by which the First Minister and Deputy First Minister were to be elected. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, who I am pleased to see here today, and the late Seamus Mallon of the nationalist SDLP were the first holders of these posts. They were a joint ticket, elected by a cross-community vote of the Northern Ireland Assembly. That required the support of the majority of the MLAs—a majority of the designated unionist MLAs and of the designated nationalist MLAs. The endorsement of the Assembly, the elected representatives of the people, gave them their authority—the leaders of the unionists and the nationalists working together in the best interests of Northern Ireland as a whole. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, would openly acknowledge that every day was not harmonious, but at important and often tragic moments, such as the horrific deaths of the Quinn brothers and the Omagh bomb, both in the summer of 1998, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister were able to stand shoulder to shoulder and speak on behalf of the country that they led.

However, all that changed following the St Andrews agreement in 2006. The Northern Ireland (St Andrews Agreement) Act changed the process for appointing a First Minister and Deputy First Minister—and I ask noble Lords to note the word “appointed”, rather than “elected”. Since 2006, the First Minister had been nominated by the largest party overall and the Deputy First Minister by the largest party in the next largest community designation. The reasons for that change were entirely political. First, some MLAs wanted to be able to tell their supporters that they had no hand in electing a nationalist, whether they be from Sinn Féin/IRA or the SDLP, into office. Secondly, as the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, has stated, they wanted to be able to proclaim at every subsequent Assembly election campaign that failing to support them would allow a nationalist to become First Minister, despite the positions of First Minister and Deputy First Minister being a shared office. I am sorry to say that both those reasons are rooted in sectarianism. That is shameful but it is the stark reality.

The Belfast agreement, which the DUP had no hand in and refused to support, was supposed to be a means of ending sectarianism, with the matter of the election of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister a key element of that. Unlike the St Andrews agreement, the Belfast agreement was endorsed by the people and should not have been changed without their consent. The amendment standing in my name and that of my noble friend would restore a key element of the Belfast agreement and deserves your Lordships’ support.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I shall speak to the three amendments in this group. I shall start with the third of them, Amendment 4, which has been spoken to by the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Rogan. They and the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie, have talked about going back to, or resetting, the Good Friday agreement, which, as has just been pointed out, had the support of the people in a referendum—not something that happened subsequently—and there is great strength in that. The noble Lord also referred to the situation at the time, which was still overshadowed by the terrorist campaign.

For me, there were two issues about which I disagreed with Prime Minister Blair in the negotiation right up to the very last day. The first was that, in my view, decommissioning and the release of prisoners should have been related. I was quite prepared to go down the road of releasing of prisoners so long as the matériel that they had used and might use was decommissioned. The Prime Minister and the Taoiseach failed to achieve that agreement and all of us suffered for some years after that in addressing that question. That was why the IMC was established—I spent some years working on that.

The other issue was so-called parallel consent, which had actually emerged as a formula from the experience of South Africa, where it was not a formula but an understanding. It was always my view that to identify people as “unionists, nationalists and other” was a mistake, and to draw up an electoral formula based on that would make the situation more problematic. However, I had another proposal: a proposal for a majority of two-thirds—in other words, 67%. It was clear to me that no one party and no one part of the community could pass a piece of legislation if it had to get over two-thirds.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[Lord Alderdice]

5: After Clause 3, insert the following new Clause—
“Disqualification of MPs and Members of the Dáil Éireann for membership of the Northern Ireland Assembly
(1) In section 1A of the Northern Ireland Assembly Disqualification Act 1975 (members of the House of Commons)—(a) in subsection (1), for “the period of 8 days beginning with the day the person is so returned” substitute “the period beginning with the day on which the person is so returned and ending with the day on which Parliament is next dissolved”, and(b) for subsections (2) to (4) substitute—“(2) Where a person is returned as a member of the Northern Ireland Assembly and is subsequently returned as a member of the House of Commons, the person is not disqualified under section 1(1)(za) at any time in the period beginning with the day on which the person is so returned and ending with the day on which Parliament is next dissolved.”(2) In section 1B of the Northern Ireland Assembly Disqualification Act 1975 (members of the Dáil Éireann)—(a) the existing text becomes subsection (1),(b) in that subsection, for “at any time in the period of 8 days beginning with the day the person is so returned” substitute “before Dáil Éireann is next dissolved”, and(c) after that subsection insert—“(2) Where a person is returned as a member of the Northern Ireland Assembly and is subsequently returned as a member of the Dáil Éireann, the person is not disqualified under section 1(1)(db) at any time in the period beginning with the day on which the person is so returned and ending with the day on which the Dáil is next dissolved.””

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

Noble Lords will know that, for some time, I have harboured a degree of anxiety that the fragmentation which we see much more largely in politics around the world and in Europe is affecting the United Kingdom, and that there is a danger that some of the relationships which have stitched us together over the years as England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are being shaken and loosened up. There are things that we need to do and to pay attention to that will hold that fabric together. For example, I was pleased to see the Lord Speaker going to Northern Ireland and meeting people there—that is a helpful development, and I am sure that he will carry that forward; I have no doubt that he will take himself to Scotland before long, and I hope he goes to Wales as well.

It is because of this concern that I am also on the lookout for other things that can be done to help hold us together. When the Northern Ireland Assembly was being set up, it was extremely helpful to have people from Northern Ireland who were experienced in Westminster, in both the House of Commons and the House of Lords, who understood what being a legislator was about. There were many others who had no experience in politics or, if they had experience, it was at local government level, which is a completely different exercise. I found myself doing quite a lot of work with some quite experienced councillors to help them realise that the exercise of executive responsibility in a council was very different from the exercise of legislative responsibility in a Parliament or Assembly.

Over a few years, people began to get concerned about what became called “double-jobbing”. In the early days, they did not have much concern about it; there were some people who were not just double-jobbing but triple-jobbing and more, and they had to be very busy in getting themselves about the place. The problem arose when people began to look at the pay being accumulated by some of those who were in more than one place. There was a lot of concern and anxiety and some anger about that, and it affected some electoral outcomes. So there was a move, as is very often the case in politics, to the other end of things and to saying, “We shouldn’t have any double-jobbing at all.” The result was legislation which meant that, at the drop of a hat—or, one might say, more like a guillotine, at the drop of a head—when someone was elected to another place, within eight days they lost their right to sit, initially in the House of Commons and then, much later, the House of Lords. Legislation was passed, and it goes quite considerably back, to make the practice impossible and there would be an eight-day period when the change would have to be made.

For many people it is not necessarily a huge problem, but it does seem to make it difficult for people to move from the Assembly to the House of Commons, to this place and indeed to Dáil Éireann, and for people in those other parliaments, such as Dáil Éireann and the House of Commons, to move back to the Assembly. This means that things are becoming siloed. It is not quite like that in Scotland, and even in Wales there is around a year’s leeway, so the problem is specific to Northern Ireland. Frankly, it is not very helpful. I understand why it has happened and I understand that things can be abused, but it has created a siloing of people into the Assembly, the Senedd and the Scottish Parliament, and away from Parliament here and indeed in Dublin.

--- Later in debate ---

This is an important issue on which I am not, as I have indicated, unsympathetic. If the noble Lord is prepared to withdraw his amendment, I will undertake to go back and look at this further.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the Minister. He is right, I did say that I was not going to stand over all aspects of the wording because it is quite a complex thing to get right. I referred to the Minister’s experience in Northern Ireland. That will have given him an insight into the kind of ingenuity of Northern Ireland politicians over the years to find ways around nearly everything that gets proposed. The whole notion of consent Motions has come back to us again, when, at the time that was drafted, we thought it was a very reasonable and appropriate thing—which it was, but it was not without potential loopholes.

I am more than happy to allow this to go back to the Minister and his officials for them to try to find their way through this technical maze. He is absolutely right about the intention and I am grateful to him for accepting it and for the spirit in which he is accepting it. I look forward to a redrafted amendment coming forward in the not-too-distant future. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 5 withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I will just say something briefly on Clause 4 and the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick. A civic forum sounds brilliant, does it not? But I am really not sure what we mean by a civic forum. I presume that this is a probing amendment, because clearly we could not support something where we have no real idea of how anyone would get on to it; who would be representing who; what the rules would be; whether they would get paid to come—would someone coming up from Londonderry/Derry get their fair pay?—or whether it would move around and people would be moving around with it.

I think this is one of those ideas that sound great but in practice would become just another group of people—mainly the same people, probably, who are already involved in politics in the wider sense in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is quite a small place, as those of us who come from there know, and everybody knows everybody, really. Wherever you go, people know somebody who knows somebody—probably sometimes they are even a relative. I am therefore not quite sure how this would work. We have, for example, a very strong Women’s Institute in Northern Ireland, where WI groups meet in the country areas regularly and do great work; we have the Young Farmers’ Clubs; we have all sorts of other organisations already, such as residents, tenants and community associations; and a huge amount of work is being done by churches and community groups. I am just not sure about introducing another layer of supposed democracy and accountability—I am not sure who it would be accountable to, anyway.

I hope that the Minister will treat this with great care, because it is one of those things that sounds good and could be set up, but then we discover that it is in fact pretty meaningless and does not do anything to move things forward in Northern Ireland.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I had not intended to speak on this, but I just want to pick up on some of the things that the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, has just said. We know exactly how such a thing would be established, because it was—it was running. When I was the Speaker, I met regularly with Chris Gibson, who was the chair of the Civic Forum, so this is not some kind of thing where we can say, “We’re really not sure what it is, how it will happen or where it would be”—it was operating. The puzzle is not whether it could operate, but why, as a part of the agreement that was voted on, it stopped operating.

There is an argument that it could have done more at the time. One of the discussions that I had with Chris Gibson as chair was to encourage him to take more initiative in enabling the forum to do things. My goodness, we sit in the House of Lords, which is in itself not entirely different from this proposition, which is that you have people who are not always involved directly and immediately in party politics but nevertheless have a role to play.

Therefore, I just flag up, after what the noble Baroness says about being puzzled as we do not know what it would be like or who would be appointed and so on, that it was in fact in place.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

That was 20 years ago.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

Twenty years ago, indeed. The agreement itself, which is the basis for the Assembly, from 20 years ago, was the basis for the Civic Forum as well. The puzzle is how it has been possible to talk about implementation of the agreement and not talk about something that was voted on and supported in a referendum. I just flag that up.

[Lord McCrea of Magherafelt and Cookstown (DUP)]

My Lords, Northern Ireland has nearly 500 councillors, 18 MPs, 90 MLAs and Members of the House of Lords. We would need another tier of advisers. I listened carefully to what the noble Lord said about knowing how the forum would operate because it has operated in the past. However, I suggest to noble Lords that we did not know how members were appointed because the same grouping of people seems to be appointed to whatever body is going to be thought of next. It never widens out to Johnny Citizen; it seems to be that same stratum of people.

At a time when we have no money for health, education, agriculture or roads—they are nothing but potholes; we cannot get tar and we cannot get them properly looked after—we would like to expend more money on having people travelling around the countryside on an extra body. I suggest to the Minister that now is not the time to be spending more money on another tier. Spending money on many of the things that the people of Northern Ireland are crying out for, whether that be education, health, agriculture or the environment, would be a better use of public finance.

Historical Institutional Abuse (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 28th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, like other noble Lords, I am grateful to the Minister not only for bringing this legislation to your Lordships’ House but for taking the trouble to make clear to many of us in advance his personal wish, on behalf of the Government, to see the Bill go through as quickly as possible. It is very clear that all noble Lords are of one mind on this matter, and I do not intend to detain the House for any length of time. I mark what the noble Lord, Lord Caine, said in paying tribute to the First and Deputy First Ministers, Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness, and Sir Anthony Hart, for their contributions to making this report possible. It is a matter of distress to us all, most importantly to the victims and their families, that it has taken so long, but we are moving forward and that, at least, is positive.

I also note what the noble Lord, Lord Hay, said about victims and about money. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, knows very well the dangers of money being mentioned in terms of adverse events and experiences that people have had, and how it can do damage to a report if people get the wrong sense of it. However, it is clear that this report is not setting some arbitrary limit; it is trying to move as quickly as possible for those whose time is shorter, and then the rest can be dealt with later. That is a positive way forward.

The noble Lord, Lord Hay, also mentioned the victims. I want to flag up, from my experience as a psychiatrist in Northern Ireland, that while we think about those who have been abused as the victims—and they absolutely are—the consequences go way beyond this. When one of my colleagues, James Gilligan, a psychiatrist on the eastern seaboard of the United States, did work in prisons and institutions for the criminally insane, he discovered that the overwhelming majority of those who engaged in dangerous psychotic violence had themselves experienced some kind of abuse or violence. So many of the families and others with whom victims will have come into contact will have found themselves adversely affected because, while some victims end up working to protect others from any abuse, a substantial percentage become abusers of others. The consequences of all this are absolutely enormous—much greater than we know.

In that respect, I also want to note something mentioned by my noble friend Lord Bruce of Bennachie at the start of this debate; he said that, in a sense, in this whole tragic business Northern Ireland is taking a lead, and that the rest of the United Kingdom ought to pay attention. I remember learning as a young psychiatrist that there was an Egyptian psychiatrist in Northern Ireland who published a paper at the end of the 1950s in which he identified instances of sexual abuse in Northern Ireland. A number of people read this and said, “Well, we’re not too surprised about that happening in Northern Ireland, but of course it doesn’t happen over on this side of the water”. Not long after that, they began to discover that it was happening here in an enormous way. That has gone on to open up over the years in a catastrophic fashion. I wish to mark what my noble friend has said because it is entirely possible that this is the Northern Ireland instalment of something that may come to haunt people on this side of the water. We must be ready for that.

The financial consequences for Northern Ireland and beyond are extremely significant. The Minister will be aware that, in another completely different situation in Scotland, it is going to become apparent that public funds to pay for the amount of disadvantage that women have faced in employment practices there will be difficult to find. The consequences of that will be enormous, and it is quite possible that the financial consequences of this report will be much bigger than people imagine. So it should be for the victims, but that has knock-on consequences, as my noble friend pointed out.

No Bill is perfect, particularly one dealing with such a difficult situation. My noble friend Lady Doocey pointed out that there are issues to be raised, and I am sure the Minister will respond to them, but we should never, particularly in these circumstances, make the ideal the enemy of the good. We have to move forward with this as quickly as we possibly can.

It will be a very difficult and challenging business for those who work in the office of the commissioner. Dealing with these kinds of things will be a difficult process for the counsellors, therapists and civil servants who deal with the problems. They find themselves having to experience profound discomfort and difficulty. It be may wise for many of them to stay in the work for only a relatively short period because of the adverse consequences on their emotional lives of working with the degree of disturbance that they will experience in working on this.

However, I value the fact that the commissioner will be given responsibility not only for dealing with the mechanical, administrative and financial aspects but for ensuring that the victims receive the proper psychological, as well as social and physical, care that they desperately need. For many it will be only some kind of supportive assistance—the damage done is too great ever to be resolved—but at least there will be recognition of the pain and damage that they and their families have suffered. For that at least we should be grateful to the Minister and the Government, and for bringing this forward in what we all hope will be an accelerated passage.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019: Section 3(5)

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Monday 28th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, the main requirement for politics anywhere, but particularly in Northern Ireland, is stamina. It appears that not everyone who asked for these regular reports has quite the stamina of some of the rest of us who have to read through and comment on them. That is equally the case for the Minister, who is very committed, energetic and shows stamina.

I would like to raise three issues with regard to this report. First, it points out that the only extension permissible under the Act takes us to 13 January 2020 when the Secretary of State would have to consider the question of an Assembly election. We have brought this up again and again and now we are bringing it up again, and we will continue to do so. At the other end of the building, a great deal of time, effort and energy are being devoted to the question of whether we have a Westminster election when it is not legally required, whereas an Assembly election, which is legally required, keeps being postponed. Is there any reason, if a date is not fixed for the Westminster general election, that the same date might not be used for an Assembly election so that we could get on with the business? We hear fine words about how the Secretary of State will have to consider the question, but it seems to be pretty endless.

The Minister also referred to the question of a university campus in the north-west, a matter I raised the last time we had such a debate. This report notes that on 17 October, the Secretary of State met the vice-chancellor of Ulster University, Paddy Nixon, along with John Kelpie and Jim Roddy, as well as local political representatives. He suggested in his opening remarks that no permission or other agreement by the Government is necessary for the University of Ulster to move forward with a postgraduate medical faculty. Is that the case? If so, can he give us some guidance as to the content of the discussions those representatives had with the Secretary of State? Is there any indication that they will be able to move ahead with this, as I mentioned last time? It is not the sort of thing that can be done at the drop of a hat because it takes a long time not only to get the staff together, but to interview candidates and so on so that a course can move ahead.

The third issue is the RHI report on the inquiry conducted by Sir Patrick Coghlin. It is now quite some time since that inquiry finished its hearings. As of July, we heard that it had sent out letters to all those who might be named in the report, but apparently we still have no indication of when the report might be received. The Irish news suggests that it might be November, but it is not clear which November because the issue seems to keep being pushed on into the future. Can the Minister give us any indication of when that important report will come out? The homework for it seems largely to have been done by the journalist Sam McBride in his book, but we would like to see the report, given that the hearings themselves quite properly generated enormous interest and concern among the people of Northern Ireland.

[Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)]

My Lords, perhaps I may pick up on the issue of the university. This goes back to the early 1960s and the whole expansion of the university in the city of Londonderry. A strange situation seems to be developing now around the medical school, which is really part of the wider city deal. We are continually being told that the business plan is complete, we are moving forward, and of course there has to be a year before the intake of students can begin to come into the university. However, although the meetings are continuing, I am being told that a local Minister needs to be in place to take this issue forward. That seriously worries me because of the fact that it is part of the wider city deal.

[Lord Alderdice]

I agree entirely with the noble Lord. Indeed, I raised exactly this question in the last debate. I pointed out that historically the placement of the university in our second city of Derry is a sensitive political issue and that it is not just a matter of economics or even of education. That is still the case because this is a live issue for people, and that is why I asked the Minister whether ministerial approval was needed. We were told before that a devolved Minister needed to be in place but we are now advised by the Minister that such approval is not required and that it is simply a matter for the university to move ahead.

I hope that the Minister can clarify the position in this debate. If not, perhaps he will write to me and to the noble Lord, Lord Hay, who has a long-standing interest in this issue, to clarify whether ministerial approval is needed, and if so, why is it being held up?

[Lord Hay of Ballyore]

I should say to the Minister that there is total political support in the city for this scheme.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019: Section 3(5)

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Thursday 17th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak briefly in the gap. I declare my interest as a medical graduate from Northern Ireland and formerly a medical practitioner in Northern Ireland.

Lest the House be in any way misled, we should be clear that there is no prospect of the resumption of an Executive at the beginning of next week. The recall of the Assembly has been at the request of unionist Members only and an Executive cannot be formed on that basis. Let us be clear: it is not going to happen.

I refer to the issue of the Ulster University graduate medical school in Derry/Londonderry. I have three brief points. First, let us not forget that the decision to locate the University of Ulster’s main campus at Coleraine is still a sore point for many people in Derry/Londonderry. It was one of the great aggravations of the 1960s and it has not gone away. Whether the Ulster University graduate medical school is established is not a neutral question. It is still a painful question that refers back to the 1960s decision, which was a bad decision.

Secondly, it is not purely an education and health decision, as implied by the report. It is also an economic decision, because one value in having graduate entry for medical students is that it attracts people from other parts of the world who are prepared to come and pay substantial fees. For example, many of the young psychiatrists I see now from the United States of America as part of their training have graduated from Caribbean medical schools and completed their training in the United States. Many Caribbean islands with good medical training facilities, from the University of the West Indies, for example, are able to do very well, so this is an economic question as well.

Thirdly, it is not possible simply to turn on a tap for a medical school. Graduate entry occurs at only one time of the year. If an opportunity for graduates to come in next year or the year after is lost, it will be at least another year or more before there is another opportunity. Since this has been waiting for some time, the kind of academics who were prepared to set up a school will move on if it keeps being delayed. I appeal to the Minister: sadly, in the likelihood that we will not have a devolved Executive, can this issue not be looked at again and pushed for? It is not a matter of dispute in Northern Ireland. People right across the community, even at Queen’s University, want to see this development. Can it not be looked at and implemented soon?

[Baroness O’Loan]

Is the noble Lord aware that nationalists have indicated that they will attend Stormont on Monday. I do not know whether there will be an Executive, but I do know that nationalist politicians will be there and I encourage every politician to be there.

[Lord Alderdice]

I am aware that many may attend. That is not the point. The issues being referred to cannot be decided by the Assembly in the absence of an Executive. Anybody who knows about the politics of Northern Ireland—and the noble Baroness does—knows perfectly well that this is not yet the time for some people to participate in the Executive. That is political reality and it is ill advised for the Chamber to feel that another possibility for next Tuesday is a real one.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

Before an Executive can be formed, the first item of business is the election of a Speaker, as the noble Lord well knows, having served in that position himself. There is absolutely no prospect on Monday of a Speaker being elected.

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2017

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Tuesday 18th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clear exposition of what is involved in this order. I am sure the House knows exactly what is at stake. I reiterate at the outset that this is reluctant legislation. We do not want to have to renew it, and neither do the Government. We welcome their assurance that they wish to end this exceptional system in Northern Ireland as soon as it is no longer necessary.

Your Lordships’ House is familiar with the security situation in Northern Ireland. It has been a little over a year since the death of Prison Officer Adrian Ismay after he was injured in a dissident republican bomb attack in Belfast. As the Minister said, in January this year two serving police officers were attacked in a public place with automatic gunfire. Dissident republicans and violent members of paramilitary groups seek to maim, kill and intimidate communities and with it disrupt peace and the rule of law in Northern Ireland. We pay tribute to those police officers, prison officers and members of the Armed Forces who serve the communities and are the main focus of these attacks. These threats affect all communities and, recklessly and without care, put the wider public at risk.

We are assured that decisions on the use of these provisions are taken with appropriate vigilance, with only a very small number of cases having these precautions applied to them. I understand that so far this year they make up 0.5% of Crown Court cases in Northern Ireland; last year, there were 19 relevant cases. I warmly welcome the commitment that the independent reviewer of the 2007 Act will be asked to review the non-jury trial provisions as part of the annual review cycle. This is a positive move which increases oversight of these exceptional measures.

The order unfortunately remains necessary due to the particular realities of the security situation and criminal justice in Northern Ireland. A huge amount of progress has been made, but we have further to travel. It is incredibly important, and remains our hope, that a full, devolved and inclusive Government will be returned in Northern Ireland as soon as possible. Today, for the reasons given, we have no hesitation in supporting the time-limited extension of this order.

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for presenting in a clear and concise way the implications of the order.

I accept that, unfortunately, it is necessary to bring this order back for another two years. Indeed, only yesterday, his right honourable friend in the other place, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, said in a Written Statement that the report of his honour, Brian Barker QC, the independent reviewer of national security arrangements, confirmed that,

“Dissident republican groupings remain interested and involved in criminality … Loyalist paramilitaries claim political allegiance, although the motivation of many is crime and control through intimidation and violence”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/7/17; col. 23WS.]


So this is not the same situation as people being involved in criminality and gangsterism on this side of the water, and we acknowledge that.

However, what is the intention of the Government, not only with this order but with the issues indicated in the report of the independent reviewer, who states:

“The deficiencies in the administration of criminal justice and the limited progress in case management are all too obvious … Tightening the criminal justice system by streamlining criminal justice processes and faster committal proceedings would increase public confidence”?—[Official Report, Commons, 17/7/17; col. 23WS.]


Will the Minister let us know what the Government intend to do to follow this up?

This leads me to a wider question. In April of this incoming year, we are coming up to the 20th anniversary of the Good Friday agreement, and we are still talking not about criminality and gangsters—they will always be with us—but about paramilitary organisations. That is why there is a need for this order and that is why there is a threat. But let us analyse this for just a minute. We must recognise that, as the last sitting of the Northern Ireland Assembly—which was the first sitting after the Assembly elections—was in early March of this year, there is clearly going to be no Northern Ireland Assembly now into the summer. It will be at the earliest in September and, realistically, much later, before there is a Northern Ireland Assembly. Therefore, the only opportunity to scrutinise what is going on is on this side of the water. Indeed, there will be no possibility to ask any of these questions until September time, so another six months will have passed.

We had all hoped that, after the Good Friday agreement, things would move reasonably quickly; they did not. From 2004 to 2011, I served on the Independent Monitoring Commission, whose job was to address the activities of the paramilitaries, the very people that we are trying to address in this order. At the end of that time, there had been a real improvement in the situation. However, by December 2015 it was necessary for me and two colleagues—John McBurney and Monica McWilliams—to return to the question, having been appointed by the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and the Minister of Justice, to produce a strategy for the disbanding of the paramilitaries that are the cause of us having to bring this order forward.

We were asked to produce a strategy and we produced the report by the end of May 2016. It was approved and the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and the Minister of Justice committed themselves to action on 19 July 2016—almost exactly 12 months ago—and the British Government and the Northern Ireland Executive each committed themselves to £25 million over the following five years to address it. There was to be an Independent Reporting Commission. When the legislation went through this House—the Minister will not remember because he did not have this portfolio—I said that I did not believe that reporting once a year was enough; the Independent Monitoring Commission should produce reports twice a year. The Government said no, once a year, but it could be more often.

The Independent Reporting Commission was not appointed until December 2016, six months after the report went through and the Northern Ireland Executive had accepted it. So, as it reports only once a year, it will be at least December 2017 before we have any report. That is 18 months on from things being put into place and yet the Minister finds himself having to bring forward legislation to address not ordinary organised crime but the paramilitary organisations. Are the Government satisfied that the report that was produced on disbanding the paramilitaries is being acted upon?

There was to be a cross-departmental implementation board. Is that board meeting? We do not know. The Northern Ireland Assembly is not in a position to ask the question, so we have little alternative but to ask the question here. As the UK Government directly are putting in £25 million over the next five years—and, indirectly of course, the whole of the £50 million—there is a real interest in this House and in this debate in getting a response from the Minister as to whether the activities that ensure the requirement for this order are being addressed as we set out to do. Although the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and the Minister of Justice at the time said, “Oh yes, there will be this implementation board and, in addition to that, the Independent Reporting Commission”, we have seen nothing from any of that.

We are being asked, quite rightly, to renew this order because of paramilitary activity and yet complete radio silence seems to have descended since the report on the strategy for disbanding was presented last June and agreed by the Northern Ireland Executive last July. Can the Minister help us to address this question?

Finally, when the IMC was disbanded—I know some noble Lords do not agree with me but, in my view, as a member of the commission, it was the right thing to do at the time—the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland undertook that every six months he or she would give a report on the activities of paramilitaries and the other issues which the IMC had reported on. Given the absence of reports for some time, the absence of anything from the Independent Reporting Commission and the absence of a Northern Ireland Assembly that can address that, can the Minister indicate whether it will be possible for us not simply to piggyback on the occasional order that comes through here but that we can properly address these questions when we return in the autumn? If the Assembly is not addressing the questions, some of us from Northern Ireland have to try to do so and make sure that something is happening, because departmental civil servants are supposed to be meeting and processing this, spending the money and, it is hoped, making some kind of impact.

I hope that the Minister realises that I am taking the opportunity of this order to speak because, frankly, there will be no other chance for us to address these questions. I think that they are serious enough. We saw last week that many of the bonfires were perfectly satisfactory cultural celebrations but there were some—such as the one close to Sandy Row—where it was clear that paramilitary organisations were out directing operations and there was a real danger not just to property but to lives, including those of children. What he has said is absolutely right: there are real issues here, and if there is a real need, there must be some real accountability and scrutiny. I would therefore ask the Minister if he is prepared to address this again after the summer break, if it is the case that there is no Northern Ireland Assembly to do it.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Tuesday 27th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice (LD)]

My Lords, I start by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, as he undertakes the responsibility for speaking for Her Majesty’s Government on Northern Ireland issues in your Lordships’ House. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dunlop. During his time at the Dispatch Box, he was energetic and conscientious in keeping us involved and informed, and we appreciated that very much.

In February, in March, in April—not in May, because of the election—I spoke on issues of Northern Ireland, its political crisis and Brexit. I return today to speak again about Northern Ireland, not to repeat anything I said before, but to point up one or two issues on the politics of Northern Ireland, the problem of Brexit and also, perhaps briefly, about countering extremism.

I have heard a number of criticisms of the Government for their confidence and supply arrangement with the Democratic Unionist Party. I am no supporter of the Democratic Unionist Party. However, I draw to the attention of noble Lords that, with the honourable exception of Lady Sylvia Hermon, the only representatives of Northern Ireland in the House of Commons are the Democratic Unionist Party, voted for by the substantial majority of Protestant people in Northern Ireland. If the message is to go out that the only representatives of Northern Ireland will not be welcome, not only in a coalition but even in a confidence and supply arrangement, what does that say to the people of Northern Ireland? It does not say that they are very welcome in the affairs of the United Kingdom. Oh, we were all congratulated for going into power-sharing arrangements with each other, but do not expect anybody this side of the water to have anything to do with these people from that funny place.

Of course, I think it is important to draw attention to the fact that it is almost inevitable that Sinn Fein will be in coalition government in the Republic of Ireland before long, having massively overtaken the Labour Party. Unless Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil were to go into coalition—not entirely likely—the only other party for them would be Sinn Fein, and if they were to go into coalition, the negotiation would probably not be over £1 billion but over speaking rights for Westminster MPs from Sinn Fein to speak in the Dáil in Dublin; they have no intention of coming to Westminster at any stage in the future. Would that be a threat to the peace process?

I do not think any of these things are a threat to the peace process. Why? Because what Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness and others demonstrated is that political progress is much more possible for them through the democratic political arrangements than through the barrel of a gun or through bombing. They are much more successful now than they ever were while using terrorist violence. So the likelihood of going back to terrorism is very modest. The peace process, in that sense, is largely over. We are now in a political process. The fact that it is in a bit of a mess does not make it entirely different from what is happening on this side of the water. Nor is the fact that there is deep polarisation in politics, with only two large parties, a major difference between Northern Ireland and England. We need to be a little bit more reasonable and honest about these things.

The parties there are in negotiation. They have been since 2 pm today. They need to reach an agreement by Thursday, and the Assembly has been called to meet at 12 pm. My question for the Minister is: if there is no agreement, whatever the Government do, will they ensure that the Assembly survives and we do not have direct rule without elected representatives from Northern Ireland being involved in an Assembly? Without that, we are in serious difficulty and there is the possibility of destroying a whole generation of Northern Ireland politicians.

That brings me to Brexit. There has been much talk about north-south difficulties. In economic terms, the problem for the Republic of Ireland is not north-south; it is east-west. The vast majority of the Irish economy is dependent on the relationship with England and Wales, not the relationship with Northern Ireland. I wish it were different, but it is not. The major thing in the economy in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is co-operation over agriculture and agri-food business. That is where much of the economy is involved. That is where much of the north-south cross-border traffic is. I ask the Minister: would it be possible for the Government to lobby Brussels that, on the issue of agriculture and agribusiness, there should be an approach to the island as a whole and free movement of animals and agri-food business? That would deal with a lot of the practical issues of free movement of goods and services in Ireland. Of course, as far as the people are concerned, the common travel area is the important thing.

Finally, I will speak briefly about extremism. Nobody would doubt that what happened in Northern Ireland involved violent extremism. I am just back from Colombia. Nobody would doubt that what happened there was countering violent extremism. But the Government’s policy—from the war on terror to countering violent extremism to trying to produce a law that defined extremism, which did not work, now to a commission on countering extremism—will not work if it is based on the notion that this is all about extreme thinking. It is not. It is about extreme feelings that drive people to do things. People can believe all sorts of things, but they do not drive them to risk their lives. If I asked many noble Lords if they believed in heaven, they would probably say yes. If I said, “Would you like to go there?”, they would say yes. If I said, “Would you like to go this evening?”, they would say, “I am not in such a marvellous hurry”, because you can believe all sorts of things, but it takes passionate commitment to want to risk your life and your family for them. I hope that the commission will consult with those of us who have spent our lives working with violent extremism in order to understand what it is really about, not what people sitting in offices in peaceful parts of the world think it is about.

Patrick Finucane

Lord Alderdice Excerpts

Monday 12th March 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, first, I commend the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, in his efforts to celebrate British-Irish relations in the St Patrick’s Day gala reception that will take place later today.

On the noble Lord’s question, yes, many people have an appetite for an inquiry, but we have to accept that there are two features about inquiries: first, the enormous cost; and, secondly, the enormous delay. Indeed, were an inquiry to have been commenced and were it to take as long as the Bloody Sunday inquiry, it would be 2023 before we might expect a result, which in itself is 34 years after the very sad death of Pat Finucane. Certainly, I can confirm what the Prime Minister said in Downing Street, but Sir Desmond de Silva has been appointed to do his independent review. He has been on the job for five months and we are to expect a report—he has eight months to go.

[Lord Alderdice]

My Lords, it is important for us to address very tragic and, in the past, worrying individual incidents, such as the horrible murder of Pat Finucane. However, my noble friend agree that instead of encouraging individual families to deal with individual incidents now that it is well over a decade and a half since the Troubles came to a close, we should increasingly try to find ways in which the community as a whole in Ireland, north and south, and the many thousands of individuals who have suffered bereavement and trauma—and, as is evidenced, a generation of young people growing up with trans-generational effects on them because of the experience of the previous generation—should be our focus for attention and for the limited resources that can be made available to deal with the trauma of the Troubles?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that it is important to look at the many. The Historical Enquiries Team, a devolved matter dealt with by the Police Service for Northern Ireland, was set up in September 2005 to investigate some 3,259 unsolved deaths. To date the team has looked into 2,423, which is three-quarters of the deaths on which the team has either done the job or is getting on with the job at present. Clearly, that is very important work. Yes, there is more important work to be done, and work continues to be done in discussions between the Secretary of State and the devolved Assembly.