Intelligence and Security Committee Report

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 5th November 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, as the noble Earl, Lord Howe, knows, the feelings of this House were made perfectly clear yesterday: this report should be laid before Parliament today. There is no doubt about that. It affects matters highly relevant to the next period of general election campaigning and it is vital that the public and this House know the contents of this report.

Perhaps I may ask the Minister a straightforward question: has the Prime Minister read the report? If the Prime Minister chooses to withhold this information from the public until after the election, when it is eventually published—which it will be—how will he tell UK voters that he was acting in their interests and not his own?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first, as I said, the Prime Minister is acting within the orders laid down. This is not a formality. The Prime Minister’s approval for the publication is vital. As I am sure the noble Lord knows, it is a statutory requirement within the JSA 2013. A report such as this is reviewed by the relevant senior officials within government before going to the Prime Minister for final approval.

As I said in the repeat of the Urgent Question, the committee is well informed of the process. I shall not comment further on the process, apart from to say that the Prime Minister is considering the report.

Brexit: Engagement with EU on Foreign Affairs

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 31st October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

On the noble Baroness’s point about a hard Brexit, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has worked to achieve a deal with our European partners, often against great criticism and against those who said that it could not be done. It is regrettable that the House of Commons did not pass that agreement. However, we are where we are, the agreement is on the table and we hope—as the Conservative Government that will emerge after the election—that we will continue to pursue that agreement with our European partners. This is about not a hard Brexit but a pragmatic relationship with our European partners. The noble Baroness makes a valuable point about bilateral relationships. We will continue to strengthen such relationships with our European partners, and I will certainly look at her proposal to strengthen our funding in that respect.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, bilateral relationships are only one part of the picture, as the noble Lord, Lord Evans, said in a recent article on security issues and our current policy. The noble Lord, who is of course a former director-general of the security services, said that,

“the whole approach the UK has taken is one of integration between law enforcement and the national security agencies. The risk, in my view, with Brexit is that there will be differential impact on the one hand on the intelligence relationships, and on the other the law enforcement agencies”.

What is the Minister’s response to that?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord will have looked at the withdrawal agreement, which provides for continuing our security and defence relationship through the transition period; that relationship will be a primary focus after we leave the European Union. Subsequently, as we negotiate the detail of the political agreement, we will work to take note of the very points that the noble Lord, Lord Evans, raised in his article. However, given the strength of our role on the world stage—particularly through defence organisations such as NATO and security organisations such as OSCE, of which we will continue to be not just members but leading members—I am confident that many of the concerns that noble Lords are rightly raising will be addressed.

North-east Syria

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 23rd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for repeating that Statement. I am sure many noble Lords will have been disappointed by Dr Morrison’s response yesterday—particularly over the numbers—especially as NGOs on the ground are clear about the numbers. Yesterday, former Foreign Office Minister Alistair Burt complained that sometimes practical difficulties were used to mask a failure in government to make the decisions it needs to make. As we heard during the earlier Question from my noble friend Lord Dubs, ultimately Ministers will have to decide how to deal with the children’s parents. Does the Minister agree with Alistair Burt that we have to recognise an international responsibility to take them back—even those who have been indoctrinated and radicalised—to protect British children?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first, I put on record that I know the right honourable gentleman Alistair Burt very well. I worked with him as a Minister in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and I pay tribute to his work across both that department and DfID. The Government have listened carefully and I have read through his exchange with my right honourable friend. As I have stated, it is clear that we have moved forward constructively. I am sure the noble Lord will acknowledge that the situation on the ground is difficult, but we have already committed that we will work with all agencies on the ground to ensure that we can bring minors and unaccompanied children back to the United Kingdom at the earliest opportunity. As to other British citizens, we are, as my right honourable friend said, looking at this on a case-by-case basis. I hear what the noble Lord says about numbers. I do not want to get specifically into the numbers but I can assure him that we are working with agencies on the ground to ensure that we can identify British citizens at the earliest opportunity and act accordingly in their best interests.

South Africa: Money Laundering and Corruption

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 17th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is right to raise that. We are working very closely, through not just the Foreign Office but the Treasury and DfID, with the South African authorities. I assure the noble Lord that the UK is playing a leading role, not just with South Africa, but in the global fight of fighting corruption. We have already committed £45 million over the next five years through the FCO-led, cross-HMG global anti-corruption programme. On South Africa specifically, we are engaging with a wide range of South African institutions to provide support to investigations with a potential UK link and to build capacity and capability, including specific support in areas such as procurement reform and promoting and facilitating regional co-operation. There are other schemes, including those in multilateral agencies through various UN representative offices, that we are also working together with South Africa on.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, we all know that, for sanctions to be truly effective, it requires a concerted action on behalf of the international community. I note what the Minister has said, but can he tell us whether there has been any consultation with the US Government and, of course, our partners in the EU, where we are still part of a sanctions regime? Can he tell us what we can do to try to get that concerted international action against these people?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure the noble Lord that this is very much ongoing, not just on the particular individuals concerned, but more specifically across the piece, both with the US and our European partners. In that respect, he will be fully aware, and as I have said repeatedly from the Dispatch Box, that for sanctions to be effective co-operation is required to stop the scourge of illicit financing and money laundering more generally. On sanctions specifically, we hope to introduce secondary legislation in due course very shortly, as part of the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act, specific provisions on the human rights element of the sanctions regime. I will update the House accordingly in that respect.

Northern Syria: Turkish Incursion

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 15th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. Anyone who heard the first-hand account on the “Today” programme on the radio this morning will be extremely shocked by the consequences of this illegal action. Clearly it is time for a very strong, robust response. I am concerned that the Foreign Secretary in the other place constantly referred to our robust export licence regime and said that we would keep the matter under review. Surely it is now time to say that there will be no more arms and that we will ensure there is a proper review of our existing exports, to ensure that British arms were not used in this terrible attack.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

First, I welcome the noble Lord back to his rightful place; it is good to see him back on his feet. I assure him that we are looking at the situation very closely. We take our arms export control responsibilities very seriously. As I said in repeating the Statement, we will review our situation regarding exports to Turkey and keep it under careful consideration. I also assure the noble Lord that no further export licences will be granted to Turkey for items that might be used in military operations in Syria. This is currently under review; I can give him that reassurance. Of course, the other important thing to bear in mind is that we continue to raise the deep concerns we have bilaterally. As I said in the Statement, the situation has gone from bad to worse, with the plight of 160,000 displaced people adding to what was already a crisis on the ground. This is in dire need of resolution. Turkey really needs to show restraint and we need to ensure support for those refugees who have now been additionally displaced in the region.

Hurricane Dorian

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 9th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask a Question of which I have given private notice.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, Hurricane Dorian has caused untold damage to the Abaco Islands and Grand Bahama. I am sure that I speak for every Member of your Lordships’ House when I say that our thoughts and prayers are with those who have lost their lives or their homes or have been injured. The United Kingdom was among the first to provide support and we are pleased to see that the international response has since been ramping up. The Government have also committed up to £1.5 million, which has enabled the delivery of critical aid, and we have deployed emergency and consular teams to the Bahamas.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I thank the Minister for that response. Indeed, last Friday the noble Baroness, Lady Sugg, also kindly informed me of developments as regards what we are doing to support both the MoD and DfID. But, of course, if noble Lords listened to the “Today” programme this morning, they will have heard the local concerns about the efficiency of the Nassau distribution of aid and support, particularly to those in the Cays and the small islands around Abaco. What administrative and logistical support has been given to the Government of the Bahamas to ensure that everyone in need is supported?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I reassure the noble Lord and pay tribute to my colleagues in the Department for International Development. I am delighted that my noble friend Lady Sugg has joined me on the Front Bench. The MoD has provided support. The FCO has provided consular assistance and 13 members of its staff have been deployed to the region at the high commission in Nassau. Indeed, we are the only embassy or high commission from the EU operating in the Bahamas. DfID has also deployed a team of five humanitarian experts, with a sixth on the way.

Yesterday I spoke to the Bahamas Foreign Affairs Minister, Darren Henfield, whose constituency is Abaco, and I have been in constant liaison with both our high commissioner on the ground there and the Bahamas’ high commissioner in London. I assure the noble Lord that through the support that we have provided across the three departments—and let us not forget RFA “Mounts Bay”, which has been providing vital assistance to those who been directly hit on the two islands—we have been at the forefront of assistance to both our citizens and those of the Bahamas.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tebbit (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend assure me that since, as is usual on these occasions, the aid has been delivered by our military forces, the cost the forces incurred in delivering that aid should fall on the overseas aid budget and not the military one?

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

It is not eligible.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, has partly answered my noble friend’s question—this does not come under ODA eligibility. Indeed, the funds that we have allocated have been set up specifically for that reason, so I can give my noble friend that reassurance.

China: Organ Harvesting

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 25th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the Final Judgment and Summary of the Independent Tribunal into Forced Organ Harvesting from Prisoners of Conscience in China, published on 17 June.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I note the time and energy that the International Coalition to End Transplant Abuse in China has dedicated to this issue. Officials have reviewed the evidence thoroughly. While the evidence is not incomprehensible—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

It is what I am saying that is incomprehensible. I meant to say that the evidence is not incontrovertible. I apologise; it is a hot day. I was just listening to all the stuff about Muslim student loans. I am sure it is not lost on anyone that we now have a Muslim Chancellor. But back to the Question: we have consulted the World Health Organization and international partners. The evidence provided disturbing details about the mistreatment of Falun Gong practitioners, and raised worrying questions about China’s transplant system. We continue to monitor all available evidence in this regard.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his response and welcome him back to the Dispatch Box. I am glad to see that he is still here; we hope he will still be here in September. The fact is that the tribunal’s evidence was pretty strong but the WHO is saying that the Chinese transplant system is ethical. Will the Minister take this up and say that the Government should ask the WHO to examine the tribunal’s evidence and explain why it does not think it sustains the argument that harvesting for transplants is going on?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I know the noble Lord has raised this question before, as have others from the opposition Benches and the government Benches, including the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Collins; the ambassador and I have pressed the WHO on this very issue. The evidence that it uses is based on the self-assessment made by the country that is a signatory, and in this case that is China. The question is whether the country meets the threshold that it has signed up to; a few countries would perhaps admit that they did not. The noble Lord makes a very valid point and I assure him that I continue to press this issue directly with the WHO. We continue to press on this issue directly and bilaterally with the Chinese authorities as well.

Bahrain

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 24th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As the noble Lord will know, we regularly raise the cases he has related, as well as other cases, bilaterally with the Bahrainis. On the support we give various bodies, including the oversight bodies in Bahrain, we provide technical assistance in Bahrain to influence and support change. I assure the noble Lord that all training provided is in line with international standards and fully complies with our domestic and international human rights obligations, but I fully accept the point that he has made. Let us not forget that Bahrain is party to the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women and needs to be reminded of its obligations. But Bahrain has made reforms and continues to do so. We believe that, because of our relationship, we are able to have candid conversations with Bahrain on the cases that the noble Lord has raised and, indeed, other cases currently live in that country.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to return to the Question because on this occasion I do not think the Minister has given an adequate response. The fact is that the verdict of the UN Committee Against Torture was that UK-funded human rights oversight bodies in Bahrain are not effective. What is the Foreign and Commonwealth Office doing to properly assess and understand what is going on? UK taxpayers’ money is being used and leading to more executions than ever before.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is right to raise the issue of executions and the death penalty. My understanding is that, between 2010 and now, there have been three executions, which are three too many and we continue, of course, to express concern. The noble Lord and I generally find ourselves in agreement on human rights issues, but I differ from him in that I believe the support we give Bahrain is helping to safeguard women’s rights. Women’s organisations are active in Bahrain and freely run campaigns calling for equality, especially on sexual health rights, but this does not take away from the facts. Do issues and serious concerns remain? Of course they do, but I believe that our engagement helps address those issues. Engagement and support, particularly in training—ensuring that the training and standards of people responsible for these institutions is at a high level—are a way forward; not doing that training, I believe, would be a step backward.

Commonwealth: Decriminalising Homosexuality

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 23rd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I totally agree with my noble friend.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord kindly mentioned the need for other voices from other countries, but there is also a very strong economic case for diversity and inclusion. Certainly, many global companies have adopted very positive policies on inclusion and diversity. Can he tell us what the FCO is doing to raise this issue with other departments, particularly those responsible for trade, to ensure that trade envoys and others make a positive case for diversity and inclusion so that we encourage investment and a change in the law?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure the noble Lord that I regularly raise every element of human rights in my interactions with Ministers in other departments, particularly those with a trade focus. As we leave the European Union, we are looking at the importance of retaining a strong voice on human rights in future trade agreements, and I will continue to make that case across government.

Hong Kong

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 23rd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the response to the Urgent Question, and he is right to say that we should not jump to conclusions. Yesterday, the Minister in the other place, Dr Murrison, said that it is probably not sufficient simply to have an internal police inquiry, which is what the IPCC would be in the Hong Kong context. He went on to say that,

“it really does need to involve Hong Kong’s excellent and well-respected judiciary”.—[Official Report, Commons, 22/7/19; col. 1098.]

What are the Government doing to ensure that there is such an independent investigation and inquiry, and that the judiciary is properly involved?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord raises an important point. My right honourable friend the Minister of State, Dr Murrison, has been quite clear in the other place that we want an independent and robust inquiry. If I can amplify his statement from yesterday, we need to know the extent to which the inquiry will be full, comprehensive and independent. A purely internal police inquiry is unlikely to achieve that objective.

Israel Defense Forces

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 8th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As we have consistently made clear, Israel has a right to self-defence. We have also repeatedly called for Hamas to stop firing rockets into Israel. Whether a life is lost on the Israeli side or on the Palestinian side, we are equally appalled. We must work towards a resolution of that conflict. It has gone on far too long.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the fact is that the hyperbole of President Trump—the “deal of the century”—will simply not happen if the PLO and the Israeli Government do not sit round the table together. Peace talks need to involve everyone. What are Her Majesty’s Government doing to ensure that we work with our allies to get everyone round the table to talk for peace?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, let me assure the noble Lord that we were represented at the recent Bahrain conference. The point the noble Lord makes about ensuring that all parties to the conflict, including the Palestinians and Israelis, get around a table to find a two-state solution, with a secure, viable and progressive state in Israel—recognising its security issues—and at the same time a state for the Palestinians, should also be the primary objective. We continue to work on that.

Anti-Semitism

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 20th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I join all noble Lords in thanking my noble friend Lady Berridge, not only for securing this debate. I have known her for a long time. I think we entered your Lordships’ House more or less at the same time. I was struck not only by her speech but by her excellent summary. I hazard a guess that everyone in this Chamber could relate to the sentiments and emotions she expressed in her introduction. I congratulate her on setting off this incredible debate robustly and insightfully.

In doing so, I also thank all noble Lords. This has been one of those debates where not only is it appropriate that a Minister answers from the Dispatch Box on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government, but it is my immense honour to do so because it recognises the importance of this issue, not just as a country and in terms of what we are doing but as a collective, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, so aptly put it. I stand by that. He and I work on these issues collectively. It requires that collective and collaborative response.

In introducing the debate, my noble friend asked whether it is right to attach “ism” to anti-Semitism. On a slightly lighter note, I was struck by how many isms we got through. There was Zionism, capitalism, Leninism, imperialism—the list went on. Most of those were contained in the four-minute contribution of my noble friend Lord Finkelstein.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

He could pronounce Leninism.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

He could, yes. I tripped somewhat on that one.

On a serious note, this is deeply disturbing. The noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, and all noble Lords made the point that in the same month that we commemorate the 75th anniversary of the Normandy landings, which marked the beginning of the end of the Holocaust, we still have to hold this debate on anti-Semitism. As the noble Lord, Lord Harris, reminded us in his powerful remarks, it shows the need to continue to act on this important issue. It is also clear to me that this old evil continues to blight the lives of Jewish communities throughout the world.

At this point, I pay tribute to two of my noble friends from when I took on my first ministerial job in the Department for Communities and Local Government. I of course refer to my noble friend Lord Pickles—should I call him my noble chum?—and my noble friend Lady Warsi. They encouraged me to go to Auschwitz-Birkenau as one of my first trips as Communities Minister. I travelled with a group of students. I am proud of the commitments that Governments have made, both at that time in the coalition Government and subsequently in the Government I now serve in, to continue on the platform of education that the noble Lord, Lord Collins, referred to. I deliberately went with those schoolchildren because I saw for myself what that history would mean to their lives, and the importance of investing in their education early so that tomorrow, when they take leadership of our great country and all the different industries and sectors that define the modern, diverse United Kingdom, they do so with a recognition of the horrors of the past, but having learned from them so they build that cohesive, collective, progressive country we all desire to see. I am grateful to both my noble friends in that respect.

As we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, and the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, looking around the world and right here in the UK in 2018, the Community Security Trust logged a record high of more than 1,600 anti-Semitic attacks. The USA has suffered appalling fatal shootings in synagogues. People have been attacked simply for practising their faith. In Australia vandalism and intimidation have afflicted Jewish communities, and in the Middle East and elsewhere tensions remain high.

Several noble Lords, including my noble friends Lord Leigh, Lord Polak, Lord Gold and Lady Berridge, the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, and the noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, mentioned Malaysia. As many noble Lords will recall, Malaysia is a member of the Commonwealth. I am a Minister of State for the Commonwealth and assure them that we were the first to object most vociferously to its holding of the Games, since it sought to ban athletes who wanted to participate, because they were from Israel. I am proud that we did. In response to the recent statement by Malaysia’s Prime Minister, I will digress with a personal anecdote. Many years ago, as I undertook political life and people got to know me, after a while one came forward and said, “You know what, Tariq? You are just normal”. I did not take that as an insult. What they alluded to was that, yes, I was of Indian-Pakistani heritage and Muslim by faith but those things that impacted me as a citizen of this country—as a proud Brit—were exactly the issues that mattered to anyone else. However, when Prime Ministers of other countries come to our country and try to disturb, divide and then dismiss these important issues, we need to stand up and make it clear that they may express those views, but we will oppose them bilaterally. It is important that our institutions also recognise that wherever they find any form of bigotry or—yes—anti-Semitism, they must reject it in its entirety.

My noble friends Lord Leigh and Lord Sheikh and other noble Lords talked of tackling global anti-Semitism. In a couple of weeks’ time it will be a year since I was appointed the Prime Minister’s special envoy on freedom of religion. It is a great honour, but it would be remiss of me not to recognise, as many noble Lords have also, the important work of the UK’s special envoy, my noble friend Lord Pickles. He raises the subject of anti-Semitism directly with other Governments, many of whom recognise, as we do, the need for specific and collaborative action. Earlier this week, as we heard from my noble friend, he attended in Bucharest the first international meeting of special envoys tackling anti-Semitism, along with members of the World Jewish Congress. In March he was in Poland, in discussion with community leaders.

I did not expect a Brexit question, but my noble friend Lady Altmann managed to weave one in—congratulations on that. I assure her, and my noble friend Lord Pickles, that I am working very closely with Ján Figel, the European Commission’s FoRB envoy. We continue to raise these issues, and will continue to collaborate in post-Brexit Britain.

These channels of communication are vital, because we must never retreat into fearfulness. We must step forward. If we ignore this issue, it will not go away. The theme of next January’s Holocaust Memorial Day is “stand together”. That is what we all must do and the Government are determined to do: stand with people of all faiths and none. As we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Sacks, the worst humanitarian crimes of history have occurred when groups were singled out, marginalised and scapegoated. I am delighted that he has joined us for this debate today, although when he was sitting next to the noble Lord, Lord Singh of Wimbledon, I felt that on those Benches we had our own little “Thought for the Day” going on.

The fundamental democratic values of individual liberty and mutual respect must at this juncture in 2019, as we have heard from many noble Lords, lead us to collectively stand together with our neighbours to call out marginalisation of any community, wherever we see it. I note very carefully the challenges that the Labour Party has faced, which the noble Lord, Lord Harris, spoke about. Equally, as I look towards my party, I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Warsi, and her campaign to ensure that if there are bigots in our party, there are people calling out instances of Islamophobia for what they are. They must be investigated fully.

I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Singh. It is important that we act collectively on this issue. He referred to more recent examples, but the history of the Holocaust teaches us that if we ignore these crimes, they become crimes against humanity; therefore, we must stand together to defeat any kind of prejudice, wherever we see it. The UK Government have been at the forefront of calling out prejudice and discrimination in all its forms. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, referred to my speech at the UN General Assembly last year. Education is so important. Interestingly, I was interviewed afterwards and the journalist said, “Minister, despite being a Muslim, you’re very strong on anti-Semitism”. I corrected him, saying that it is because I am a Muslim that I am strong on anti-Semitism because of the common humanity that unites people of every faith. As we have heard time and again, and as my noble friends Lady Warsi and Lord Sheikh have said, the greatest test of an individual is standing up not for the rights of yourself but for the rights of others. Through our diplomatic activity, we actively promote freedom of religion or belief. Indeed, in my role as special envoy I have prioritised the need to tackle discrimination on the basis of religious or ethnic identity in all our posts, wherever we find it—be it through collaborative work at the United Nations, through our work at the OSCE or with the EU. Ministers and senior officials regularly raise individual and community cases with Governments directly, and challenge practices and laws that discriminate on the basis of a person’s belief or religion.

Let me say a word about Israel. I have visited Israel as a Minister, but I have also visited Israel privately, with my family. As we were rightly reminded by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester, Israel is a country that brings together communities of all faiths, as I saw when we visited Jerusalem. As I saw when I visited Haifa, it is a country that protects those minorities who are often persecuted elsewhere. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, that because of the strength of that relationship, when it comes to those challenges—when it comes to some of those questions she has raised with me—we are able to raise them bilaterally. We will continue to do so, because being a democracy means being transparent and responsive in defence of any challenge that may be posed, but it is a strength of the relationship that the United Kingdom—

Sudan

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 6th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I agree totally with the noble Baroness. I have seen reports over the last few days and I got a full update about the situation this morning. As she will know, our embassy is not far from where the camp was set up. The official toll from the military authorities is 46, but media reports indicate that the number is more in line with the one she raised. On the UK’s representation, our ambassador on the ground, with his team, is in direct contact with the military authorities. I pay tribute to him. To answer the noble Baroness’s second question, I can say that he is also directly meeting the leaders of the opposition, including the Forces of Freedom and Change. We are working hand in glove with the troika and the African Union to ensure that those committing these crimes, including those involved with the Transitional Military Council, are held fully to account.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, a few weeks ago everyone would have hoped that a peace process would happen and that we would see a transition. Of course, that hope has been dashed by the recent press reports. One report yesterday in the Guardian said that the US Government had approached the Saudi Government to influence the Sudanese military to hold back. Have we been working with the US Government to place that sort of pressure on the Saudis, who seem to have a far greater role than most people realised?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is quite right. He will recall that the Saudi Arabian Government, along with the Emirati Government, have offered £3 billion of assistance to Sudan. Of that money, about £500 million has been deposited. I assure him that the US Government are raising this with the Saudis, as we are. On working specifically with US Government, I had a conversation about 10 days ago, in advance of the latest situation, with Ambassador Sam Brownback on freedom of religion, which is a key part of ensuring that there is a new Sudan with a full civilian Government incorporated. We continue to work closely with the United States Government, but also with the Saudi and Emirati Governments.

Saudi Arabia: Torture of Political Detainees

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 13th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord speaks with great insight on the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and I agree with him. We have a very important and balanced relationship with Saudi Arabia that is realistic in terms of what is achievable and attainable in our exchanges, and that is because of the nature of the engagement. As I said, we do not shy away from raising human rights bilaterally or, as has been demonstrated, in partnership very publicly through vehicles such as the Human Rights Council.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister talks about the programme of reform. Certainly, since the incident in Turkey, we have seen a different attitude. The report on torture arose from Saudi Arabia’s own internal examination of these issues, and with a new ambassador in the US and here, the Saudis seem to be on a charm offensive. But the reality is that there are still huge human rights abuses and more executions than ever before. Will the noble Lord tell us a bit more about not only what the Government are saying to the Saudis but what we are doing with our allies to ensure we can exert pressure, so that, instead of the current PR exercise, we confront the reality?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises important points. But the fact that the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is deploying a “charm offensive”, as he calls it—I would also call it a diplomatic offensive—to change the way it is viewed on the global stage reflects the important fact that progress is being made. On working to get specific action, it is acutely aware of the action we are taking through international fora such as the Human Rights Council, and we will continue to do so.

Iran and Gulf Security

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 13th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord’s final point is very much a matter for the United States Administration; it would not be appropriate for me to comment on the entourage of the Secretary of State. On the noble Lord’s wider point, I agree that it is imperative that all parties to the JCPOA are involved. He named both China and Russia; I assure him that we are working with all parties and continue to implore both China and Russia to use their influence to ensure that Iran stays at the table and that the JCPOA stays live for the region. As I have said a number of times, it is important not just for Iran and for the region but for the whole world.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, this tit for tat that we have seen is clearly something that we were discussing last week. It is clear that there are also elements in Iran who would like to see the agreement fall because of their own ideological commitment. The noble Lord keeps referring to “our side of the bargain” and “their side of the bargain”. Can he tell us a bit more about how we are meeting our side of the bargain, as he said, not only with our European allies but with other co-signatories, so that we can say to the US, “We will continue to meet our side of the bargain”?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As the noble Lord knows, we are not only committed diplomatically to the JCPOA but have been working in co-operation with our European partners on the special purpose vehicle. That is part of our side of the bargain—to coin a phrase—to ensure that there is sanctions relief for the Iranian people. Our fight—or anybody’s fight—is not with any citizen or country, and nor should the United States view it as such. Indeed, Secretary of State Pompeo has repeatedly emphasised the importance of keeping in mind the Iranian people. That is why we are committed to ensuring that the work that is being done on the special purpose vehicle continues—because it provides a degree of respite for the Iranian people.

Sri Lanka: UNHCR Refugees

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 9th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the response to the Urgent Question in the other place. I know that he understands the importance of this issue personally, particularly the Ahmadi Muslims, who have fled persecution in their own countries and Pakistan and who would face horrendous persecution again if they were to go back there. Will the Minister give a bit more detail about how we are able to support the Sri Lankan Government on immediate shelter for the refugees? Will this country be playing its part in any resettlement programme? Finally, on the discussion the Security Minister had, will we be supporting the Sri Lankan Government in trying to sustain a proper reconciliation process in the aftermath of that terrible tragedy?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the short answer to the noble Lord’s final point is, absolutely. My right honourable friend the Security Minister made that offer to the Sri Lankan Government. I visited the high commission myself to sign the condolence book and had an extensive meeting with the high commissioner. I will be seeking to visit the country for the purpose referred to by the noble Lord. It looks towards the United Kingdom and I am proud—as I am sure all noble Lords are—to be part of a country which, notwithstanding its challenges, has shown that it has the respect of all faiths and none, and in which faith communities are an integral part of finding solutions to those challenges.

The noble Lord is right to point out the situation of the Muslim communities that were expelled under severe security concerns. He is quite right that the majority of those are Ahmadi Muslims; I declare an interest in this respect. I am sure that the irony is not lost on many people: those who fled Pakistan because they were targeted for not being Muslim are now being targeted for being Muslim in another country. I assure the noble Lord that we have made all necessary offers of support to the Sri Lankan Government. There has been no specific request as yet.

On the issue of relocation, the UN and civil society organisations are working with the Government to identify immediate relocation options and as I said, there are 412 refugees currently in the UNHCR resettlement process. He asked specifically about the number for the UK. The UN says that seven are currently being processed for relocation to the United Kingdom.

Syria (Sanctions) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 9th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

Perhaps I may ask the noble Lord about the Joint Committee and the consultation that might have taken place.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I think that the Joint Committee has reported back but, if I may, I will cover that in my letter to the noble Lord. He raised one other point about NGOs which I have not covered. During the course of the Bill we had a discussion in which NGOs were directly involved, and there are now provisions in the Bill to protect humanitarian elements. We will continue to work very closely with NGOs. I am looking towards the Box for an answer to his specific question. I am not aware that consultations were held with the NGO community in advance of the SI. However, it is a practical idea, and consultation is always useful. I am a great believer in consulting with NGOs. As I said, I will write to the noble Lord with an answer to his question.

Once again, I put on the record my thanks to all noble Lords who have participated in this debate. I apologise if my voice sounds slightly hoarse. As I am sure noble Lords will appreciate, I am fasting at the moment. With the day having started at half-past three, and with various speeches, Questions, Statements and SIs, as much as I enjoy my role at the Dispatch Box, by 7 o’clock the Ahmad voice needs a rest. However, I appreciate noble Lords’ contributions.

Iran Nuclear Deal

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 8th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I very much welcome the Minister’s Statement. Of course, it is about keeping commitments. Today, we have seen retaliation for the United States imposing further sanctions, which will become a tit for tat if we are not careful. It emerged in discussions in Brussels, which I welcome, that practically all EU multinational companies that were trading with Iran have now ceased to do so, and the US is threatening to impose sanctions on any country that imports oil from Iran. On commitment to the nuclear deal, can the Minister tell us in a little more detail how we are upholding our side of the bargain? How will we work with our European partners to ensure that we do not regress and end up with Iran pursuing its nuclear option?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Let me assure the noble Lord that the United Kingdom remains fully committed to the JCPOA. When the United States withdrew from the agreement, the United Kingdom, along with other key European partners, was clear about the importance of retaining and sustaining this treaty. It is not perfect, as we have said a number of times in your Lordships’ House, but it is an important vehicle to ensure that Iran does not progress on the nuclear pathway in any respect. Therefore, it is important to keep the deal alive and on the table. It is for this reason that we remain committed to the special purpose vehicle to which I alluded in the Statement. We are working through the technical details to ensure that, together with other partners, including the E3—with Germany and France, the initial owners—we look to the specific needs of the Iranian people so that the current situation and terrible suffering they are enduring does not prevail. This will include a focus on foodstuffs, agricultural products, pharmaceuticals and trade in consumer goods. It is important to make progress in this respect, and we remain committed to the SPV.

Lord Mayor’s Show: Taiwan

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 1st May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, that is not the Government’s view. When we were asked, we gave our opinion that Taiwan should be included in the Lord Mayor’s Show as it falls within the category that I have just articulated. We continue to support Taiwan’s membership of key organisations within the UN family, such as the World Health Organization and the World Trade Organization.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

It is striking that this is not about recognising Taiwan as the Republic of China—the relationship between the People’s Republic and Taiwan is a matter for those two places—but about our relationship with an important trading and economic partner. Taiwan is also a very important partner in terms of the rule of law, liberal politics and human rights. Can the Minister tell the House what he will do to ensure that our relationship with Taiwan will not be affected by the actions of another Government?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I agree that our relationship with Taiwan is best built on sound values. Therefore, shy of recognising Taiwan—which we do not—Taiwan’s future, as the noble Lord said, is a matter for China and Taiwan, on both sides of the Taiwan Strait, and it is for them to come to a way forward. As I said in answer to the previous question, we are supportive of not only Taiwan’s presence in the Lord Mayor’s Show but its inclusion in various organisations on the world stage, and we will continue to articulate that. On a more general point, we will stand against human rights abuses wherever we find them.

Sudan

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 30th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the statement by the troika saying that the transitional military council must move as speedily as possible to civilian rule. As the Minister knows, transitions can be extended and extended and extended. What is the United Kingdom doing to ensure that this transitional military council remains transitional and that we make every effort to ensure a speedy move to civilian rule?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I totally agree with the noble Lord: the word “transitional” is key. In our dealings with the African Union, the suggested timeline has been three months. We take encouragement from the new leader of the transitional military council and from the protests that continue to take place. There has been a reaching out: the individuals who were of deep concern to the protest movement have been removed from the military council; and there is direct engagement with the opposition forces. Having visited Sudan and seen the suppression of press freedom and of the freedom of minorities, I think we take great encouragement from the fact that those protests and that engagement continue, and the military has ceased from intervening to suppress the protests.

China: Religious Freedom

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 4th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that I work very closely with Ambassador Sam Brownback on both this issue and freedom of religion across the world; we are co-ordinated. Another recent example was a visit to Pakistan. As I left Islamabad, Ambassador Brownback was arriving. We have ensured a co-ordinated approach on what the United Kingdom and United States are doing.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

To follow up on my noble friend’s question about the WHO, I understand—and completely agree with—the Minister’s commitment to raising these issues with China, but organ harvesting has other implications, not only for universities, which could be co-operating. Can the Minister assure the House that he will raise this issue across Westminster and Whitehall to ensure that all departments take it seriously and that we do not start using organs harvested from prisoners?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is quite right. I am aware, from the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, of World Health Organization’s current, persisting view. I assure the noble Lord once again that this is important to the World Health Organization and Whitehall. For example, some countries are also adopting systems to restrict this. We are working with them to see how those restrictions are applied and we seek to review our own position in that respect.

Venezuela: Russian Troops

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 2nd April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. Russia is sending military aid to Venezuela. Troops arriving in public view do not help to resolve the crisis in Venezuela, and the US—as he rightly acknowledges—has been strongly critical. While Foreign Minister Lavrov’s defence remains that this is part of a regular military deployment, bearing in mind the situation prevailing in Venezuela it is far from that. This is why we believe it is time to ratchet up the diplomatic efforts, as the United Kingdom has been doing in working hand in glove with the Lima Group.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I think all sides of the House are at one in condemning Russia for this external interference and in saying that the only way forward is for Maduro to leave and for free and fair elections to take place. However, also key for the future is the terrible economic situation and the humanitarian crisis—inflation this year is forecast at 10 million per cent. What are we going to do? Are we working with our allies to ensure that once we get rid of Maduro, we will have economic support for the people of Venezuela?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I totally concur with the noble Lord. He and I have talked about the situation prevailing in Venezuela. He is quite right that the humanitarian situation is dire. In a recent survey of hospitals, 88% were reported to be in dire need of medical equipment. There is one small glimmer of hope: I heard this morning that it has been agreed that the International Committee of the Red Cross will be given access and, on the timeline for that, I can share with your Lordships that we are hoping it will start delivery of aid within the next two weeks. The noble Lord is also right to draw attention to the dire economic consequences. I assure him that we are working to step in with partners through the Lima Group and with European partners. What is required right now, I concur, is free, independent, fair elections, and support for the interim President to ensure this happens in a short time.

Brexit: Bilateral Relations with European Union Member States

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 20th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend speaks from experience in this regard and is absolutely right. As I said in my Answer to the Question, the strength of relationships is important. We welcome the statements from Germany and indeed this week the German Foreign Minister, who I have dealt with extensively on initiatives we are taking at the UN in areas such as preventing sexual violence, has spoken very strongly about the importance of the bilateral relationship between our two countries and the need to strengthen that further.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I understand that one key impact on our team in Brussels is that the expense accounts of our diplomats have been increased in order that they can take people out to lunch instead of meeting them inside the room. Aside from that, the key issue here is that of FCO resources being diverted to the necessary task of building up bilateral relationships. What impact is that having on our ability to act, particularly as regards hotspots in the world such as the Russian desk? Are we taking resources away from these very important areas to devote work to bilateral relationships in Europe?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I assure the noble Lord that we continue to strengthen our relationships across the piece. He will recall that we are expanding our diplomatic missions in many parts of the world. I am the Minister for the Caribbean, and later this year we will announce the opening of missions and diplomatic posts there. Of course as we leave the European Union it is important that we strengthen our network of diplomats in Europe. That is why every single one of the 27 ambassadors is now at senior management level. We have also announced a broad and extensive uplift in the form of new posts within our diplomatic missions across the EU—an expansion of 550. That continues to work well. On taking people out to lunch and working outside the room, I would be delighted to take the noble Lord out to lunch.

Yemen: Women and Girls

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 7th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The short answer to both questions is yes. Through some of our programmes in Yemen, particularly those led by DfID, £39 million has been allocated to address issues such as forced marriage, on which Yemen is a priority country; 6,000 girls directly impacted by forced marriage have been assisted with counselling and health provision. A further £65,000 has been allocated for outreach work as far as is possible to ensure that early marriage is also addressed. I absolutely accept the noble Baroness’s point on peacekeeping. That is why the Government have committed internationally, more recently in the context of the Commonwealth, to women’s peacemaking networks. As we approach International Women’s Day, it is important that, at the UN, here and elsewhere in the world, emphasis is placed on the importance of women in conflict resolution.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the IRC report gave some horrific examples and made a series of recommendations. One was humanitarian access, particularly to health centres and hospitals that provide support to women and girls who have been subject to gender-based violence. Access to them has been restricted; they have been bombed and damaged. What exactly are the Government doing on all sides to ensure that there is proper humanitarian access?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I thank the noble Lord. He and I have spent a fair bit of time on this issue and will continue to work together; I think we are very much at one on it. My right honourable friend’s recent visit again highlighted the importance of peace and of supporting the efforts being made through the UN, including the UN resolution that has been passed. There are three elements to that, one of which is about ensuring humanitarian relief. Current figures show that while the ports of Hodeidah and Salif remain open, distributing that aid further remains a big issue. A second element relates to fuel supplies—some 86% of the requirements of Yemen were met last month. However, again, it is about getting those fuel supplies out. Those are the fundamentals. On girls and women and the protection of health centres, that was a priority raised by the Foreign Secretary with both sides, including representatives of the Houthi community, to ensure that as we address the fundamentals of food and humanitarian aid, protection for girls, particularly from child marriage and forced marriage, is also high up the agenda.

Nord Stream 2 Pipeline

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 28th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As my noble friend may well be aware, Germany is still pursuing and moving forward with Nord Stream 2. The operational challenge at the moment comes from Denmark, which has not yet given approval for the pipeline to be near where Nord Stream 1 is laid. That process continues, and in that regard we continue to work with Denmark as well. On my noble friend’s wider point about NATO, yes, of course it was set up for the purposes of the defence of Europe and the western alliance. I am delighted and proud of the commitment that the United Kingdom makes, as we continue to invest in it. We have asked other European partners, including Germany, to ensure they pay their dues to NATO.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the response from the Minister but, as the Prime Minister has said on many occasions, we should engage but beware. If this has been raised with the German Government, what has the response been on how this matter is moved forward? We are maintaining sanctions and have condemned Russia for its actions in Crimea and Ukraine. Is it not about time that we heard from the Minister what response we are getting from our allies?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

First and foremost, this is an issue of European security. In that regard, we have been working with the European Union. However, as I have already indicated from the Dispatch Box, Germany is certainly looking to proceed with Nord Stream 2 but there are caveats. Work has been done: for example, the noble Lord, Lord Collins, will be aware of the work done on the gas directive. The whole issue is one of monopoly. Gazprom currently controls a major source of European energy supplies. We believe that is incorrect and that belief is shared by our European partners. The work done on the gas directive will guarantee that once the new pipeline is operational, it can be managed more effectively by European regulation.

Kimberley Process Certification Scheme (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 28th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, before the Minister rises, how can I resist making a contribution? The debate in Grand Committee lasted for some considerable time despite there being only the two of us; we were able to debate the issue in quite a lot of depth. One point raised, which the Minister ought to address today, is that we may await the consent of the other nations to join the convention: is there a potential gap, if we fall out of the EU, in not being a full member of the convention?

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

I think we are at risk of having as long a debate as we did in Grand Committee. I am glad to see that the diamonds issue is creating a lot of interest in your Lordships’ House, in contrast to that day in Grand Committee.

I welcome and thank the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for her support of the Government’s position. We are agreed, irrespective of the differences and questions that have been raised, about the importance of continuing the Kimberley process. As the noble Lord, Lord Hain, himself has said—I acknowledge that he was instrumental in starting this process—successive Governments have continued with our membership because, plainly and simply, it is the right thing to do. Certainly the Government’s planning and programme is a reflection of the fact that there should be no gap. When we leave the EU, there should be a continuation of our membership of the Kimberley process, and appropriate programmes have been set up to ensure that that happens.

I cannot leave this Dispatch Box without responding to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, who raised the issue of the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is leading our country at perhaps one of the most challenging times that our history has faced, certainly in my lifetime. What is needed right now is a good deal to allow us to leave the EU. The more time that we spend debating SIs and prolonging the process through unnecessary debate, the more that we will not achieve that end. What is required now is for the whole country, this House and the other place to get behind the deal, do the deal and get behind the Prime Minister, who is leading our country in most challenging times. I say to the noble Lord that I know the Prime Minister; I have known her for 27 years. She is a lady of principle and passion, and she is showing both.

Kimberley Process Certification Scheme (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 13th February 2019 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My note here starts with: “My Lords”. I am also addressing the public, but I am glad that the Deputy Chairman of Committees is also present, so the term applies most appropriately.

During the 1990s, the trade in conflict diamonds was a significant cause of instability, particularly in Africa. The Kimberley Process Certification Scheme is an important tool for reducing conflict, in Africa and elsewhere. Great strides have been made since its inception in 2002, and today more than 99% of the global supply chain of rough diamonds is certified as conflict-free.

From the beginning of the Kimberley process, the United Kingdom has been represented by the European Union. Together with our European partners and other participants, the UK has been active in our support of the Kimberley process and its principles: to increase transparency, to ensure trade is limited to Kimberley process participants, and, importantly, to apply effective controls.

The Kimberley process is not a treaty and has no basis in international law. Instead, it is simply a grouping of interested states—the “participants”—that have decided to enact domestically a uniform process for verifying the trade in rough diamonds at their borders. They then made the political decision to permit the trade in rough diamonds only with similarly minded states to establish the Kimberley process. The legal effects of the Kimberley process come from domestic legislation, hence this legislation is essential if we are to continue to participate in the process after we leave the European Union—as we intend to do.

As noble Lords will be aware, until 29 March 2019, the UK remains a full EU member state, subject to all the rights and obligations of membership. Those include trade arrangements that fall within the EU’s common commercial policy, including the Kimberley process. Under the terms of the withdrawal agreement, we have agreed with the EU that it will notify international partners that the UK is to be treated as a member state during the implementation period. This would mean that the UK would continue to participate, represented by the EU, and the UK trade in Kimberley process-compliant rough diamonds would continue. In the event that we are unable to enter into an implementation period, our participation through the EU would end and UK trade would be frozen until our application for participation was approved by other participants in the Kimberley process.

In either case, the legislation would ensure that we continue to comply with the requirements of the Kimberley process. It would secure our borders, prevent any non-compliant rough diamonds from entering the UK supply chain and send a strong message to would-be smugglers that the United Kingdom is not a recipient of conflict diamonds. It would also reassure the Kimberley process body of the UK’s commitment to the scheme, ahead of our application for independent participation. The instrument does not undermine the wider EU withdrawal negotiations, nor does it assume no deal. Instead it lays the groundwork for our future relationship with, and independent participation in, the Kimberley process. Essentially, it enables business as usual.

This matters because maintaining our relationship with the Kimberley process is an intrinsic element of our international commitments to conflict prevention. It is also pivotal in how we support UK business to operate responsibly in post-conflict and other difficult environments. The Kimberley process is not perfect, but as an independent participant, the UK will maintain our commitment to the ongoing reform process and continue to be an active and collaborative partner.

Some noble Lords have noted that a significant portion of UK trade in rough diamonds could fall away once we have left the EU. The reality is that, given the structure of the UK rough diamond market, trade statistics can be misleading. UK exports in rough diamonds outside the EU were valued at £67 million in 2017. We expect this to continue at around this level once we have left the EU.

The Government Diamond Office implements the Kimberley process in the UK, and is working closely with Border Force to ensure we meet the minimum standards set by the process. We are a well-respected participant in the Kimberley process as an EU member state and can expect to remain so as an independent participant. We have already informed the EU of our intention to initiate our application. Demonstrating that we have appropriate legislation in place is a fundamental part of that application process. That is the purpose of this instrument. Once passed, it will apply even if we are not a participant immediately at the point that the UK leaves the European Union, or after any implementation period.

Last week, this instrument was considered and approved by the other place—introduced by my right honourable friend the Minister of State for Europe and the Americas, Sir Alan Duncan—and has been approved. I welcome this opportunity to hear the views of the noble Lord on this draft order. I beg to move.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I reassure the Minister that I also welcome the opportunity to give him my views, once again—we have the opportunity at frequent intervals. I will say, right from the outset, that of course we support wholeheartedly the principles of the Kimberley process. It is not perfect and can certainly be improved on regarding impact, but it has certainly had a substantial impact in diminishing that awful, illicit trade in war diamonds. It is extremely welcome that we will continue to apply the principles after Brexit, and certainly ensure there are no gaps that could potentially be exploited.

One area of criticism is the fact that, as an exit SI, it is caught up in this overwhelming number that are coming forward, and whether there has been sufficient time for proper scrutiny. Irrespective of that—I have called this an “SI stampede”—whatever we have, the Explanatory Memorandum sets out, as the Minister has said, the reasons for this. It is an unusual SI in terms of an exit SI, because it is required in its provisions whether there is a deal or no deal. It is just that, if there were a deal within the transitional period, we would be able to ensure that our transition from EU involvement to being an independent participant goes smoothly.

There is a slight difference between a deal or no-deal situation. As the Minister said, 82 countries are members, and Sir Alan Duncan said in the other place that he was confident our existing participant status would be embraced by the 81 as we reapply on a slightly different basis. But doing so within the terms of an agreement to leave the EU is different from coming out at the end of March. We are faced with possible consequences, and it is those consequences that I will address.

As the Minister said, in the event that we are unable to enter an implementation period, our participation through the EU would end and UK trade would be frozen until our application for participation was approved by the other participants in the Kimberley process. In either case, as he says, this draft legislation will ensure that we continue to comply with the requirements of the process. It will secure our borders, prevent any non-compliant rough diamonds entering the UK supply chain, et cetera.

What assessment have the Government made of the impact such a break in our coverage of the process would have on our conflict prevention objectives and obligations? We have been a prime mover of this, so would there be any sort of impact? While we are saying we are going to ensure we remain compliant even outside the process, I want a better understanding of what assessment has been made if we are outside it.

Sir Alan Duncan said that the cost would be the same as now. Likewise, the impact is unchanged, hence the absence of a need for an impact assessment. Paragraph 13 of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s report quotes the Explanatory Memorandum on why there would be no significant impact on business—because it broadly replicates what we have now, and will apply in a no-deal situation. But the committee—I want to ask the Minister about this—found the Explanatory Memorandum,

“deficient for not articulating more clearly the potential financial and commercial consequences for the trade if endorsement of the UK’s application to the Scheme is delayed”,

coming back to this point that inevitably, if we fall out of EU at the end of March, there will be a period when we are not covered. What does that actually mean?

Is the Minister able to say categorically that a no-deal scenario, where for a period we may be outside the scheme, would not involve any additional cost to the UK diamond trade? Sir Alan Duncan responded to Bob Stewart in the other place on the fact that this is about rough diamonds, not the sort of imports and exports that Hatton Garden would have. He said that this SI,

“is about a particular category of diamond. The draft regulations mean that if we were a participant, anything legal in the Kimberley process would include us in that process; if we do not pass them today, it would not”.—[Official Report, Commons, Seventh Delegated Legislation Committee, 5/2/19; col. 8.]

I understand that this is a case for making this SI. I do not have any objection, but I want to be absolutely clear that, in this no-deal scenario, the Government are completely satisfied that there will be no financial impact, particularly on small businesses. Has there been any consultation with the trade on this specific point?

With these few remarks, I will leave it for the Minister to respond.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I am truly grateful for the noble Lord’s participation, without which we might not be having this SI debate. I thank and pay tribute to the noble Lord. It is often said that you call your friends “diamonds”. We may call each other “noble Lord” and not “noble friend”, but I am grateful that I have a diamond of an opposition shadow Minister to deal with—often in a spirit of harmony. On the odd occasion we challenge each other, it is reflective of our mutual respect. I am grateful to the noble Lord for his contributions this afternoon.

As I outlined in my opening remarks, this instrument is crucial to the UK’s participation in the Kimberley process. This point was acknowledged by the noble Lord, and I thank him for his support in this regard. In turn, he raised the important issue of conflict-prevention objectives and obligations. As we have both acknowledged, the convention is not perfect, but this instrument seeks to ensure the continuity of the UK’s participation in a process that has seen results, especially when you see the commitment of the countries now participating in this process. It is right that countries come together to ensure that we protect this important sector and industry and send a clear message to those seeking to exploit the trade in rough diamonds. It is also important to note that this instrument maintains the status quo of the UK’s participation in the scheme.

The instrument is fully consistent with the Prime Minister’s commitment to be a supportive member of the European Union—both as we negotiate our departure and once we have left. It ensures the UK’s continuous compliance with the scheme.

I will pick up on a few of the noble Lord’s specific questions. He talked first about what would happen if the UK were not able to participate in the Kimberley process in the case of a no-deal exit from the European Union. This would of course affect the integrity of the process which we helped to establish. Without this legislation before the Committee, the UK would not have the power to seize illegal rough diamonds and would be perceived as a weak link in the process. Irrespective of how we leave the EU, this SI will ensure the UK’s adherence to the principles of the Kimberley process. It will demonstrate the UK’s continued commitment in this respect.

The noble Lord then built on the issue of conflict prevention. The fact that we are committed to participating, irrespective of the nature of our departure from the EU, underlines the importance of having this SI in place for both scenarios. Across the House, we are focused on the importance of ensuring that we prevent conflict—as I know the noble Lord is.

The noble Lord also asked about the costs associated.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

Before the Minister leaves the point about maintaining our objectives and policy, I have a question. As it sort of states in the memorandum of agreement, I accept that, irrespective of whether we are able to participate as a member of the convention, we will continue to apply its conditions. That is how I read the statement. However, even if we continue to apply it, will our not being—potentially for a period—a participating member of the convention allow any gaps in our ability to ensure a continuation of this?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

In passing this SI, we are committed to ensuring that in any kind of gap that would occur—irrespective of whether we are formally part of the Kimberley process or not—our own industry, sector and standing as a country would be protected. In addition, more importantly, as I said, we would be committed to prevent anyone using the exit from the European Union, if it is on the basis of a no deal, to exploit any such gaps. I hear what the noble Lord said. The way this SI is drafted is to ensure that we are ready and will apply those same rules, irrespective.

The noble Lord raises the specific issue—it is a valid one—that if we were not to be part of the Kimberley process if there is no deal and there is a delay in gaining our independent participation by a given date, that would result in issues around trade. That would have an impact and I do not shy away from that fact. However, it is our hope and—it was coincidental that we informed the EU of our application to join as an independent member, not just as a member of the EU, because the EU was actually the chair of the Kimberley process at that time—we have certainly not perceived any reason why we would not be able to join as an independent member.

Turning to trade and the costs, the noble Lord asked for a categoric assurance that there would be no impact. That kind of categoric assurance cannot be given. What we do have is the fact that the UK rough diamond trade currently comprises around 15 regular traders, with a few additional ad hoc traders. De Beers also imports rough diamonds for research and development and exhibition purposes. While I cannot give a categoric assurance, I assure the noble Lord that we have been in contact with traders who are making appropriate contingency plans, and we will be looking to support the industry in this respect. I assure the noble Lord that we understand that companies involved in this process will be taking appropriate contingency measures.

I appreciate that the noble Lord draws attention to the cost to the industry, and as best as possible we have certainly looked at it. We believe this will be limited. The statutory instrument itself is reflective of our intention to stay and be committed to the process. In passing this instrument today, we will ensure that and give an important signal not just to our EU partners but importantly to all members of the Kimberley process. I hope I have addressed the noble Lord’s questions quite directly.

China: Uighur Muslims

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 11th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the noble Baroness raises a number of issues, including the allegations of children being caged. All these matters are very much on our radar. Specifically on the American question, I am in regular contact with Sam Brownback, the US ambassador for freedom of religious belief. I hope to meet him very soon and I assure the noble Baroness that we will discuss this issue.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, there are pictures of these camps on the BBC website. They are huge and the idea that they are somehow for educational purposes is just crazy. Can the noble Lord tell us more about building alliances, because the international response to this crisis has been muted? What is he doing, specifically with other Muslim countries, to try to build up a much stronger response so that China does listen?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I too have seen those images and anyone who has cannot help but be appalled by them. The noble Lord raises the issue of building alliances. I have talked about the Human Rights Council and my meeting with the US ambassador for freedom of religious belief. However, this is not just about Muslim countries. As I often say, I defend the rights of Christians and people of no belief, not despite being a Muslim but because I am a Muslim—as anyone of any faith would protect the rights of others. That is the British Government’s approach, which I know is shared by the noble Lord and, indeed, across the House. That is how we will approach this issue.

Venezuela

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 7th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first, on the issue of humanitarian aid, I think we have all watched pictures on the television showing the desperate plight of the Venezuelan people. I assure my noble friend that DfID is working very closely with my right honourable friend the Minister for the Americas, Sir Alan Duncan. We are already working through UN agencies to provide essential funding, particularly to the more than 3.2 million people who have fled Venezuela since the crisis began. On his second, very pertinent question, on the IMF, I assure my noble friend that we recognise that reconstruction in Venezuela will require support from international financial institutions and that, when the time is right, the UK will work closely with those and all like-minded international partners with the aim of getting Venezuela’s economy back on track.

On my noble friend’s final question, on the position of Her Majesty’s Opposition and, in particular, the leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition, while I have not heard directly from him, I followed the speech of the shadow Foreign Secretary, who answered a question on Venezuela yesterday. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Collins, is taking note—

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

Will the Minister give me a chance to speak?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I will, but I am answering the question first. I was struck by the fact that the shadow Foreign Secretary said that we should be led by the countries of the region. Well, the countries of the region who have recognised the interim President—let us leave the US and Canada aside—are Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Ecuador, Guatemala, Panama, Paraguay and Peru. If she wants to follow the lead of the region, I suggest that Her Majesty’s Opposition look at that list very carefully.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I really must intervene. The noble Lord has used this Question as a Statement. The Statement is not being repeated in this Chamber. Let me make it absolutely clear: the position of the Opposition is that democracy has failed in Venezuela and the sooner we get free and fair elections, the better. We want from the Government, as the noble Lord said, a clear commitment to work with the international community to ensure that the humanitarian and economic crisis in Venezuela is addressed, because we know that Trump will not address it.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I ask the noble Lord again. We are addressing it and I have given a clear indication of what the Government are doing, but the Opposition need to step up to the mark. If you ask the people of Venezuela one question—what is the freedom they are fighting for?—they say they want free and fair elections. Maduro has not given them; it is time that Her Majesty’s Opposition recognised the interim President.

Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces Treaty

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 5th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating that response to the Urgent Question. As he repeated, and as Mark Field said yesterday in the other place, the treaty’s six-month withdrawal process offers Russia a final opportunity to return to compliance.

Last October, we had a similar Answer repeated in this Chamber. I asked the Minister whether we were consulted over the initial announcement. He said that the UK Government,

“continue to work very closely with the United States and other NATO allies to ensure that our efforts over the past 30 years are not just sustained but strengthened”.—[Official Report, 24/10/18; col. 864.]

Will the Minister tell the House what steps the Government have taken to try to bring the US and Russian Governments back to the negotiations? Will he tell the House what discussions he or the Foreign Secretary have had with their US counterparts?

There is another issue here. I know this is a bilateral treaty, but what contact has the Foreign Secretary had with other countries, including China, which have developed INF-proscribed weapons, so that a future multilateral framework may be developed that could supersede and replace the INF treaty?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Taking the noble Lord’s last question first, he will know that the INF treaty is a bilateral treaty between the United States and the Soviet Union, as it then was, although he raised an important point about nuclear weapons more generally. I assure him that the United Kingdom continues to work, particularly through alliances such as NATO, against the continued proliferation of such weapons and to ensure that the limitation that can be applied to them is upheld. That is why we welcomed further agreements that have been signed between the United States and Russia, particularly in relation to the New START agreement, which seeks to address this issue.

The noble Lord asked about the relationship and the discussions which have been taking place. He is quite right that in October we had talks on this issue. After that statement by the US, the current US Administration has initiated a series of meetings with close allies, including NATO. We continue to exchange detailed information on Russian violations and how we may best achieve shared policy objectives.

The other thing that I would bring to the noble Lord’s notice is that the US first declared Russia to be in breach of its compliance with the INF treaty back in 2014. At no point during that time has Russia provided a credible response. Indeed, the first response from Russia was that it was compliant. It was only in 2017 that it acknowledged that the missiles in question exist.

On whether there was a specific notification from the US on this occasion, we had already had discussions with the US. The message about the exact timing of the President’s public announcement was not communicated directly, but the recent announcement came as no surprise, bearing in mind the October announcement.

Zimbabwe

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 21st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I assure my noble friend that we are working very closely with international partners—he mentioned SADC and the African Union—and in particular with South Africa, to urge the Government in Zimbabwe to stop their disproportionate use of force and reinstate the internet, which I understand has been reinstated in part today.

In terms of further work in this respect, my honourable friend the Minister for Africa will also attend the EU-AU ministerial in Brussels today and tomorrow afternoon, which will discuss Zimbabwe in particular. On the issue of the Commonwealth, as Minister for the Commonwealth, I say that we all subscribe to the values of the Commonwealth—of ensuring pluralist democracy and the upholding of human rights. Many saw during the Commonwealth summit the Government’s commitment to encourage among other partners the new Zimbabwe to come forward for membership. Clearly, the events that have unfolded recently put that into question—but of course, it is a matter not for the UK but for the Commonwealth as a whole.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, 12 months ago in this Chamber the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, reported on behalf of the Government about the EU-AU summit to which the Minister referred and outlined a programme of reform as a consequence of the change of Government. We have had 12 months of those discussions. What have the Government been doing with our partners in Europe and with the African Union to ensure that the programme of reform outlined 12 months ago is maintained? It clearly has not been maintained in the past few weeks.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I assure your Lordships’ House that, as I have already indicated, we are working with international partners to see that from the desperate situation in Zimbabwe over many years we see the emergence of sustainable democracy, investment in state institutions, particularly the justice system, and the opening up and the lifting of all sanctions. However, the conditions on the ground, as we have seen in the most recent events, do not allow that to happen. We will continue to work with international partners and bilaterally. Our ambassador is working very hard on the ground. She has recently met the leaders of the opposition as well, to ensure that we remain a constructive friend to Zimbabwe—but the human rights violations cannot be ignored.

Sudan

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 15th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I am fully aware of the work done by the noble Baroness in Sudan and the support she extends to people there who are suffering oppression and the denial of their human rights. As Minister for Human Rights, I assure her that I am acutely aware of these challenges. During a visit to Sudan last year, I raised these directly with government officials as well as civil society leaders. On the issue of our engagement, our excellent ambassador there, His Excellency Irfan Siddiq, met directly with the acting Foreign Minister immediately after these protests. As I outlined in my original Answer, we will hold the Sudanese Government to account if they persist in the brutal suppression of the longest protests we have seen since the independent Sudan came into being.

There have been some positives, however. Through our direct engagement, we saw a humanitarian corridor open to South Sudan to address some of the issues beyond the borders of Sudan itself. So engagement does have some positive returns.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, there is no doubt that engagement has a positive impact, but the Minister referred to the impact of the relationship. What range of impacts does it have? The strategic dialogue meeting will take place very shortly, at which surely we should make it clear to the Sudanese that we will not continue this dialogue if they continue to abuse human rights the way they are doing.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the noble Lord is aware that, on these issues of direct engagement, the strategic dialogue allows for exactly those conversations to take place. For example, at the last strategic dialogue in November last year, issues of human rights, including human trafficking, modern slavery, freedom of religion or belief and gender equality, were all raised in a productive and structured way. I assure the noble Lord, and your Lordships’ House, that we will continue to do so and use those dialogues to ensure that we hold the Government to account.

China: Human Rights

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 10th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I commend the efforts of the noble Lord in consistently raising this issue and standing up for the different communities, the lawyers and activists, those of different faiths, and those who are being subjected to specific targeting for organ harvesting. I reassure him that, during the last UPR in Geneva, I made it a point to directly raise these issues, including the treatment of lawyers and religious minorities, and specifically the closure of Christian churches and the desperate situation of the Uighurs.

Sir Geoffrey Nice is conducting a review on organ harvesting, and the noble Lord will note that I ensured that some of my officials attended the hearings of the preliminary findings of that report. We are currently awaiting the detailed outcome. Let me reassure all noble Lords that we will consistently raise human rights publicly, through processes such as the UPR, and bilaterally, as I indicated in my original Answer.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the Minister for his response and also for Mark Field’s response to my honourable friend’s Written Question just before Christmas. However, noting all the contact that we have had through the Foreign Secretary and the Minister himself in raising our concerns, has the FCO taken the trouble to speak to the Department of Trade and other civil society organisations, including business, about our concerns on civil liberties? Engagement is not simply about political representation. We should make clear to everyone engaged with China that we have genuine concerns over human rights, and that to do business with China we need to see an improvement.

Brexit: UK Nationals

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 9th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I thank the noble Viscount for his remarks about Portugal and certainly I will relay them to the embassy and to the ambassador. But let me assure the noble Viscount and your Lordships’ House that not just our ambassadors but our Ministers are working on this. I know that when my noble friend Lord Callanan has been engaging on the European circuit, he has been at various outreach events across Europe on this very basis—to inform British citizens who are living in the EU about their rights and what they will be entitled to.

Equally, we are also working very closely with posts here—ambassadors from the EU in the UK. For example, the Foreign Office, the Home Office and DExEU have organised a series of events in cities around the UK to reach out to those people from the Polish diaspora who are residing in the UK to ensure they understand their rights.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the problem most people have is that many citizens have been put through an unnecessary period of stress. We could have given these assurances much earlier on and alleviated the pressure on people. The Minister says that our citizens living in the EU will retain the rights they have now. This is not true—even under the deal. If their company or business moves within the EU they will not have the same rights as they have now to move within the European Union. They will apply only to the countries in which they currently reside. So it is not true to say that everything is the same— it is not. This Government have put a lot of stress on people totally unnecessarily. If we had given guarantees earlier on, we would be in a much better place to negotiate.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the Government have sought to provide clarity at every stage. I accept the point that the noble Lord makes that we need to ensure that not just our citizens in the EU but those people who have made a life in the UK—who work, live and reside here—are given certainty. While things have happened in the past, it is important for the here and now to ensure that we give certainty to EU residents in the UK in what are challenging circumstances. Equally, we should not forget those million UK residents who are living across the EU and ensure that their rights are also understood. Our diplomatic network is doing an extremely good job in that respect.

China: Uighur Muslims

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 19th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I appreciate that the Government have been raising this issue with the Chinese authorities, but have they raised it with the US in order to get joint action to persuade China that human rights are a matter of international concern and not something that can simply be left to individual countries to deal with on their own?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises an important point, but let me assure him that through our membership of the Security Council and the Human Rights Council, we raise these issues with like-minded partners but also with countries from the Islamic world—to which the noble Lord, Lord Alton, referred—to ensure that a consistent message is delivered. China is an important partner of the United Kingdom on a range of different issues, but that should not preclude our raising human rights issues clearly and unequivocally.

Nigeria: Intercommunal Violence

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 18th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is right to raise those matters. On the case of Leah Sharibu, we are continuing to press the authorities for her release. There is some positive news in that we understand that more than 70 of the 110 Dapchi schoolgirls who were kidnapped have been released. We continue to implore for and work towards the release of the others, and back-channels are open. The noble Lord is also quite right to raise the issue of arms. As he will know, there is a major challenge regarding the trafficking of weapons, particularly from nearby states, including the flow-through from places such as Libya. As to the ideology, there are, as was said earlier, various factors underlying the different conflicts within Nigeria. However, it is an indisputable fact that both the Islamic State in West Africa and Boko Haram operate in certain states, and their philosophy and ideology are perverse. They are hijacking the noble faith, and it is important not just in Nigeria that we collectively work to eradicate such a philosophy.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, on Friday the most reverend Primate initiated a debate on reconciliation; and, of course, the two key elements of the very complex situation in Nigeria are security and development. Can the Minister tell us a bit more about how DfID and the Foreign Office are working together to ensure that we actually have the strategies to deliver on reconciliation and development?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I agree with the noble Lord but would add a third element in terms of delivery strategies, regarding security. On all three fronts—whether it is our work through the Ministry of Defence or through diplomacy and direct contact with the Government, and he is right to raise the important work of DfID—our work in Nigeria includes a strong focus on, for example, tackling inequality and exclusion, increasing employment and livelihood opportunities, and improving governance at the local level. We are working across all the different areas to ensure that, as we invest in Nigeria, we work with it and look to build not only its key economic sectors but the key elements of its justice system and governance.

Freedom of Religion or Belief

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 10th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The right reverend Prelate is right to raise this issue. On reflection, 70 years since the declaration, here we are in 2018, seeing abuses of human rights across the piece. We have talked about gender, faith and LGBT rights, which remain important priorities for Her Majesty’s Government. We are working closely with the human rights commissioner, Michelle Bachelet. I have met her twice already, as has the Foreign Secretary, to reiterate our strong support for her priorities and agenda.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response. I agree completely with the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, about the connection between human rights and freedom of religious belief. When giving the Minister responsibility for this matter, the Prime Minister said that we would work with all societies and countries, particularly civil society. What discussion is taking place with faith groups about the issue raised by my noble friend? How can we get people to understand that human rights are fundamental across all groups?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is again right to raise that. On working with civil society groups, he will be aware that we recently announced £12 million of funding, for which I am grateful to colleagues in the Department for International Development, in support of freedom of religion or belief initiatives to help civil society organisations on the ground in some of the most challenging parts of the world, exactly as the noble Lord articulated. LGBT rights, as well as other rights and gender equality, are an important priority. To give him another practical example, next year will mark the anniversary of my noble friend Lord Hague launching this initiative as the Prime Minister’s representative on preventing sexual violence in conflict. We will mark that by inviting faith leaders to stand together with those of no belief to prioritise the humanity that prevails in standing up for victims of sexual violence in conflict, because no religion, faith or belief sanctions it.

Sudan and South Sudan

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 10th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Let me assure the noble Baroness that I visited Sudan recently and did not go equipped with any carrots. It was quite a candid conversation concerning priorities of human rights, including press freedoms. Civil society organisations were present. I conducted a round table, meeting with one of the senior vice-presidents, and we had some productive outcomes. For example, we will now be pen-holders at the Human Rights Council, and will use that as a means to push further reforms that are required on the ground. The detention of political prisoners, as the noble Baroness and others have made clear, is unacceptable.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I appreciate the Minister’s comments and I know that the UK Government have been putting pressure on the authorities, but the case of Peter Biar Ajak is concerning. He has had 135 days in detention with very limited access to legal aid, or even to his family. The case needs to be heard publicly, and I would appreciate the Minister making clear to the authorities that we want a clear understanding that he will be given proper access to legal aid and representation.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I note very carefully what has been said by the noble Lord and others in this respect, and I can assure noble Lords that, when it comes to political detainees, the very points he has outlined are paramount in our direct engagement with the Governments—be it with South Sudan, as in this instance, or with Sudan—and that we will continue to ensure that the right legal access and support is provided to all political prisoners.

Freedom of Religion or Belief

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 24th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend makes a very practical and useful suggestion, and I am looking at my new role to see whether we can provide that kind of country detail.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I strongly associate myself and the rest of these Benches with the remarks of the Minister in respect of the person who attended this place last night. We strongly support his attempts to stop that kind of behaviour. We do all have a responsibility. One of the things that happened at CHOGM was a conference at Lambeth Palace, involving religious leaders and politicians. Can the Minister tell us a bit more about what progress has been made since CHOGM? It is not simply a matter of Governments; it is about all community leaders and faith leaders taking the initiative.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord raises an important point, and we of course welcomed the progress at CHOGM. I have continued to work closely with Lambeth Palace and other faith leaders as well. I am working closely with the Vatican, through Archbishop Gallagher, and I recently met His Highness the Aga Khan. We are looking across the piece with leaders from different faith communities, and from humanist societies as well, to ensure that we can work together as one on this important priority.

Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 24th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord speaks from great experience in this respect. I assure him that the United Kingdom will do all within its power to ensure that this treaty is sustained and strengthened. But it is a bilateral treaty between the United States and Russia and one party—Russia—has not complied. The other positive note in this respect is that, as the noble Lord will know, at the last NATO meeting in July all NATO partners stressed the importance of sustaining this treaty. It has kept the peace for more than 30 years, and that is evidence of its importance.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, by leaving the treaty the US has no way of pressuring Russia into compliance. The Minister is right about the need to ensure compliance. With the New START treaty on strategic arms due to end in 2021, we could be left with no limits on the arsenals of nuclear states for the first time since 1972. So my noble friend is absolutely right to raise this critical issue. Will the Minister tell us what conversations we had with our ally the United States and whether the United States consulted any of its European allies on this question before making this announcement?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned the New START treaty. It is important to recognise that major strides have been made in de-escalation and the destruction of missiles. That treaty remains on the books. Both sides are complying with it, and we will continue to work to ensure that it is sustained. On this treaty, we all heard the US President make the announcement. The issue of Russia’s non-compliance was not new to the NATO alliance. It was reflected in the communiqué in July. The noble Lord will also be aware that subsequent to the discussions a member of the US Administration recently visited Russia, and we hope that productive discussions will come from that. We continue to work very closely with the United States and other NATO allies to ensure that our efforts over the past 30 years are not just sustained but strengthened.

Jammu and Kashmir: Human Rights Abuses

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 23rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Her Majesty’s Government, as the noble Lord has rightly said, are a friend to both Governments—India and Pakistan. Our position remains that it is primarily for India and Pakistan to come together. They are countries tied together by history, culture and families. Indeed, my parents herald from India and my wife’s parents herald from Pakistan. Communities and families can come together. Perhaps I am living proof of that.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, we have a very proud record of defending human rights, particularly in countries such as Pakistan and India. What is of concern to me when we object to abuses of human rights, particularly the use of the death penalty, is that we now have a Government who are saying that it is okay to extradite people to a country where they might end up suffering capital punishment. Does the Minister agree with that assessment and the impact it might have when we try to defend other people from capital punishment?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first, I am greatly humbled and honoured to be the Minister for Human Rights. Indeed, prior to coming to your Lordships’ House, I launched our human rights report, which again reflects its importance, our priorities and the key role that the United Kingdom plays in standing up for the broad spectrum of human rights across the world. The noble Lord raised the death penalty; I assure him and the House that the Government’s position remains the same.

British Overseas Territories: Same-Sex Marriage

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 23rd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, in Her Majesty’s territories overseas we obviously have an obligation to uphold human rights, and it is a fundamental human right to be treated equally under the law. Of course, when the Minister read out that list, Bermuda would have been on it, because it did pass same-sex marriage laws. In fact, people were able to marry, and then we had that overturned. The Government cannot abrogate their responsibilities here, because it was agreed to by this Government and it should not have been. They should have upheld the rights of LGBT people. I declare an interest: I am actually half Bermudian, so when I go out there with my husband, will I be able to exercise the same rights? I hope the Minister will stand up for same-sex marriage in Bermuda.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord specifically mentioned Bermuda and he will know the history there. There was a referendum on both domestic partnerships and same-sex marriage, which the Bermudians did not accept in their vote. A decision was taken by the Supreme Court in advance which permitted same-sex marriage. That was overturned, as the noble Lord said, in the Parliament there to bring forward domestic partnership legislation which protects pension rights and other rights of same-sex couples. As to where we are with Bermuda, as the noble Lord will be aware, that legislation has been referred to the Supreme Court. The Government of Bermuda are appealing that decision, and, later this year, a determination will be made. We need to ensure, and it would be entirely appropriate—I am sure the noble Lord will respect this—that those local issues of justice are played out appropriately.

Freedom of Religion or Belief

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 19th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

First, having special envoy status strengthens the role. Many countries around the world have employed ambassadors and they continue to make representations to Governments. Being at the heart of government, I believe that I will be able to influence policy on exactly the kind of points and issues that the noble Lord raises. I assure him that I have represented this particular area in my wider brief as Minister for Human Rights, and the ability to influence the direction of policy and statements that are made is an immense privilege. To do that within government as well as being an envoy to the Prime Minister will, I believe, open further doors.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I completely accept the ability of the noble Lord to wear many hats and I think everyone in this House will admire the way that he has carried out his previous responsibilities. But the key here—he is absolutely right—is that it is a cross-Westminster, cross-departmental responsibility. Can he tell us a little more about how as a Minister for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office he will ensure that there is co-ordination across Westminster and Whitehall departments to ensure the effective implementation of this policy?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

That is a very important question and I assure the noble Lord that that will happen both in terms of ministerial engagement and with officials. We are currently setting up the structures on a cross-departmental basis. There is already strong working between DfID and the Foreign Office. But I want to extend that further from a local government perspective in terms of the initiatives domestically and in education. In that regard, I shall be meeting my noble friends Lord Bourne and Lord Bates later today to discuss the framework. That ministerial engagement will happen on a regular basis.

Turkey: Prisoners

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 27th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the fact is that, since the coup, 160,000 people have been arrested under the state of emergency and 152,000 civil servants have lost their jobs. The situation is getting worse and, while I note what the Minister is saying about representations—I welcome those made by the Prime Minister—what direct steps are the Government taking to ensure that the state of emergency is lifted as soon as possible?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As with any bilateral relation, as the noble Lord is aware, we have strengthened co-operation over a range of areas. We co-operate with Turkey on aviation security and counterterrorism, and those important relationships are valued both by us and by Turkey. It is the nature and strength of that relationship that allows us to be very candid, open and honest in our exchanges on human rights issues, including the detentions the noble Lord has referred to. We continually raise those concerns generally and, as I said to my noble friend, specifically.

Turkey: Pride March

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 21st June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am fully aware of the issue and the clamp-down on journalists in Turkey, not just Kurdish journalists but more generally, is something we have raised consistently. The noble Lord will be aware of the issue around other human rights defenders, including Amnesty International. I assure him that the Prime Minister, in her last meeting with the Turkish President when he was visiting London, raised the issue of the freedom of the press and of journalists being held and detained directly with him. He may well be aware that today sees the latest hearing in the trial of the current leader of Amnesty International in Turkey, Mr Kilic, and our embassy in Ankara has sent representation to that hearing.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, when President Erdogan met the Prime Minister, they agreed to stress the importance of human rights. Mark Field, the Minister, in the debate earlier this month said that the Government were keeping under review whether Turkey should be a human rights priority designation country. How active is that review, bearing in mind the ongoing situation with human rights abuses which are getting worse since he met the Prime Minister? How exactly is that review being conducted?

BBC Persian Staff

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 12th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am sure that my right honourable friend will take note of my noble friend’s suggestion. However, I say to my noble friend that we do not miss any opportunity to raise consular cases. This is not just about the ambassador; let us be clear that, when it comes to the Iranian Administration, these calls are made in Tehran. We make these issues known not just to Foreign Minister Zarif but to President Rouhani, and there is also great influence in these cases from Ayatollah Khamenei, the spiritual leader in Iran. I do not believe that summoning the ambassador every single day would result in the release of Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe or the outcome that we desire.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the fact is that this issue has global implications. The BBC World Service has a well-deserved reputation, certainly in going to parts of the world where freedom of speech is denied. The noble Lord has spelled out what we are doing to raise the issue with the Iranian authorities, but can he spell out in more detail how we are building alliances with other countries, particularly with our allies in the EU, to tackle this problem?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord raises an important point. This morning I attended a meeting of UN counterparts within the EU family. The important message that I conveyed was that we will continue to work co-operatively and collaboratively with our EU partners when we leave the European Union. As we saw on a different matter relating to Iran—the JCPOA—concerted action demonstrated unity. The fact that Chancellor Merkel, President Macron and Prime Minister May acted together ensured that that deal stayed on the table. That important collaboration should be a key focus of our continued co-operation with our European partners.

Yemen

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 11th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the response to this Urgent Question. Martin Griffiths, the UN special envoy, has been holding talks with all sides to try to broker a peace settlement, and was expected to report to the Security Council on his efforts on 18 June. As the Statement says, he says that any attack on Hodeidah by the UAE would,

“in a stroke, take peace off the table”.

Does the Minister agree with Martin Griffiths’ assessment, and if so, what action did the Government take to prepare for the emergency session of the Security Council taking place as we speak? If the Government did prepare, what did they expect to come out of the Security Council meeting with regard to stopping the planned UAE assault and keeping peace on track?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

First, I assure the noble Lord and the House that we continue to support UN special envoy Martin Griffiths. As the noble Lord may be aware, the he met with Emirati officials on 10 June and pressed again for prioritising the political track. In this regard, the noble Lord is also correct that the UN Security Council is in session—but, as he will be aware, it is a closed session. On the efforts that the United Kingdom Government have taken to avert any kind of action on Hodeidah, we remain convinced that a political solution is required. That is why my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary spent this weekend directly contacting his counterparts in both the Emirati and UAE Governments, as well as in the Government of Saudi Arabia.

Iran and Saudi Arabia: Co-operation on Syria and Yemen

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 21st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Baroness is right. I assure her and the House that the Government are totally committed to this agenda and have been leading on the issues of women, peace and security in our national action plans across the world. I was in Turkey when we launched the next Syrian action plan, and subsequently in Iraq to launch the national action plan on women, peace and security. Women have to be at the heart and soul of conflict resolution. By excluding women—more than 50% of the population—no solution can be found. Perhaps I may say a final word to those so-called religionists who feel that by using a noble faith they can exclude religion: you are wrong. For every prophet of every faith, including the Prophet of Islam, women played a central and pivotal role in all decision-making, both internally and externally.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, given the impact that sectarianism can have in a global context, John Bew, in his excellent article in the New Statesman this week, has pointed out that old taboos are breaking down, with the Prime Minister of Israel going to Moscow and the Iranians going to China. In response, will the Government be clear about the need to speak to our allies to ensure that we are completely up to date with this moving situation, and that we work especially with our European allies to ensure that the necessary peace talks take place?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is right and he knows that I agree with his sentiment. That is why—returning to the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Northover—the United Kingdom, working together with our allies, has been pivotal in ensuring that the nuclear deal with Iran stays alive. The noble Lord will know that the Prime Minister, together with the President of France and the Chancellor of Germany, issued a joint statement. It is important that walls come down—for example, in Europe, it took a wall coming down for peace finally to be restored. Those who build walls achieve nothing. We are in the process of taking those walls down.

Commonwealth: Discriminatory Legislation

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 21st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I have a short answer for the noble Lord: yes.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, as the Minister knows, we had discussions at CHOGM about this issue and he is absolutely right about the need to support and engage with civil society. That includes churches as well as civil society groups such as trade unions, which can actually promote equality and non-discrimination policies at work and, in doing so, ensure that LGBT rights become a workplace issue—not simply one that brings us into conflict with faith groups and others but a much more practical issue. Has the Minister had the opportunity to meet trade unions to discuss how he can approach this issue?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I know the noble Lord had a very productive event that he attended during the Commonwealth summit engaging with trade unions directly. As the noble Lord knows, we are meeting very shortly—although I have invited everyone in for a cup of tea in the middle of Ramadan, so I am not sure how I will partake—to hear practical suggestions about the groups and individuals we should be engaging with to ensure that this funding that has been allocated is allocated appropriately and where it can be used to best effect.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 21st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, this amendment relates to the important area of enforcing trade sanctions on board ships outside of UK territorial waters. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Collins, has an amendment in this respect, and I am cognisant that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has expressed some concerns. I assure him and your Lordships’ House that I commit to respond to the committee in writing. In the meantime, I hope that I can reassure noble Lords about the necessity and appropriateness of these powers.

In a moment, I will turn to the specific issues which the committee has raised. I want to make it clear from the outset that these powers are needed to address exceptional and potentially dangerous situations in which goods sanctioned by the UK are being transported to or from a sanctioned country in international and foreign waters; to ensure adherence to the standards set out in the relevant UN Security Council resolutions; and to provide protection against the transportation of dangerous and harmful goods in international waters—strengthening our ability to counter foreign policy and national security threats via the enforcement of sanctions regimes. Especially in light of recent events, noble Lords will appreciate that it is both necessary and important for the UK to have such powers and that is why we have sought to include these clauses.

Amendment 11 would enable UK officials to board and search ships where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the ship is carrying sanctioned goods or technology. Amendment 12 also allows these powers to be exercised in circumstances where Amendment 11 does not apply but where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the ship is carrying goods that would be sanctioned if there were a UK link. The powers could be exercised against British ships in both foreign and international waters, and against foreign and stateless ships in international waters. These clauses would also allow officials to seize goods that are being dealt with in contravention, or deemed contravention, of sanctions regulations.

Amendment 18 would allow the procedures for dealing with goods once seized to be set out in regulations. We expect these powers to be exercised, for example, in circumstances where the UK is aware that a ship is carrying goods such as components of chemical weapons, military materials heading towards a conflict zone in breach of an arms embargo, or even illicit nuclear materials heading towards a sanctioned state.

The clauses contain important safeguards limiting the use of these powers. The Bill makes it clear that there must be reasonable grounds to suspect that the ship in question is carrying sanctioned goods before any action can be taken. Further, consent from a foreign state is required before these powers can be exercised in relation to a British ship in foreign waters. The powers may be exercised in relation to a foreign ship in international waters only with the authorisation of the Secretary of State, which may be given only in certain limited circumstances, thereby ensuring that these powers will be used only on foreign ships with either flag-state consent or under the authority of international law. Where there is no flag state, as in the case of a stateless ship, such safeguards are not required as the ship is not subject to the jurisdiction of, and protection from, any other state.

These powers are analogous to those contained in other provisions of domestic legislation. For example, Chapter 5 of the Policing and Crime Act 2017 allows for these same powers to be exercised in circumstances where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that an offence under the law of England and Wales is being committed on board a ship in international waters. We intend to confer these new powers on the same UK authorities which are already capable of exercising those existing powers, namely constables, NCA officers and customs officials. In addition, we intend to add commissioned officers of Her Majesty’s ships to that list, as we expect that the Navy is likely to be the authority best placed to exercise these powers in respect of ships in international waters. This is not a novel approach as such officers are, for example, already designated maritime enforcement officers under the Criminal Justice (International Co-operation) Act 1990.

I draw noble Lords’ attention to the fact that the various maritime enforcement powers contained in existing legislation go further in some respects. For example, they allow for the arrest and detention of persons on board the ship. The purpose of these powers is not to target individuals, but to ensure that we can prevent the improper transportation of goods to or from a sanctioned country. These maritime powers are both necessary and important because the UK has legal obligations to enforce sanctions regimes on board British ships whether these ships are in domestic waters or not, which these powers will allow us to do. The UK also has legal obligations to seize and dispose of UN-sanctioned goods; we will be able to meet those under these powers. The UN Security Council also calls on the UK to search foreign ships for such goods, and expects the same approach to be taken in relation to stateless ships. The powers contained in this clause will allow us to do this as well.

On the concerns raised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in particular, I will explain why these amendments provide for the powers to be set out in regulations. This mirrors the approach that has been taken to the sanctions Bill as a whole. The Bill sets out the framework to be applied in sanctions regulations. The purpose of these maritime powers is to enforce UK trade sanctions, and so they should be exercisable in relation to any country on which trade sanctions have been imposed by the United Kingdom. For the sake of clarity and accessibility, it makes sense for there to be one regulation per sanctions regime which sets out all the detail pertaining to that regime, and that includes these powers.

However, it must be remembered that almost all the detail around these powers has been set out in the primary legislation already: the nature of the coercive powers that may be exercised, the circumstances in which these powers must be exercised, and the nature of the procedure that is to be followed when goods have been seized under these powers. Ministers therefore have very little discretion about what can be set out in the regulations in relation to these powers. For this reason, we consider this approach to be appropriate. For the same reasons, we consider that there is no reason for any additional parliamentary scrutiny of sanctions regulations based on the inclusion of these powers in those regulations, beyond the parliamentary scrutiny already provided for in the Bill in relation to those regulations.

The Delegated Powers Committee has also raised concerns about the particular wording of Amendments 11 and 12 and about whether the powers set out there are a non-exhaustive list. I reassure noble Lords that there is no intention to exercise any coercive powers that are not explicitly set out in Amendments 11 and 12. Indeed, if the intention was to have additional powers to take any other coercive action of the sort provided for in these amendments, one would expect the primary legislation to set out those additional powers, and it does not do so.

Turning briefly to the other amendments in this group, Amendments 4, 13, 23 and 30 are consequential on these clauses. Amendment 4 would ensure that the reference to supplemental provision, in Clause 1, includes these clauses. Amendment 13 ensures that the exercise of these powers in international and foreign waters is not limited by Clause 19 on extraterritorial application. Amendment 23 would ensure that the Bill does not affect powers exercised by the royal prerogative in relation to ships, and Amendment 30 would allow amendments to be made to the Customs and Excise Management Act to be able to properly enforce UK sanctions.

These maritime powers are necessary and important to ensure that we can take steps against the transportation of dangerous and harmful goods in international waters. Their inclusion in the Bill is an important step in enhancing the integrity and impact of sanctions regimes. I beg to move.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

My Lords, I read the report of the Delegated Powers Committee on Friday and thought that I needed to act immediately, because I wanted to ensure that this House had the opportunity to fully debate its implications. I welcome what the Minister said and his commitment to respond fully to the committee’s report.

With regard to the powers, one of the biggest concerns at Second Reading in this House, through to Committee, has been the power grab—the concept of legislation being made by regulation, which seems to be expanding the whole time. I was particularly concerned about Clause 4 and how its powers appear not to be limited. I know that we have safeguards in the Bill, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, who is not in his place, for moving substantial amendments, which the Government listened to, on how you can confine and constrain the powers that are needed. We know that at some time in the future, a Government will simply look at what the law gives them power to do and use it, because it could apply in different circumstances. Therefore I was responding in particular to Clause 4 and the committee’s report. I hear what the Minister said about the safeguards and the constraints on Ministers in making regulations, and I hope that other noble Lords will be satisfied with the response. At this stage, I am.

United Nations Human Rights Council: Resolution on Gaza

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 21st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, last Tuesday the Minister agreed with many on the need for an international, independent investigation. In fact, he assured the House that our team at the UN would be working hard on this, and that he would report back on progress. I hope that the Minister can explain why, if the Government were dissatisfied with what appeared at the Human Rights Council, the UK did not submit its own resolution to address this issue? Why not set it out in a way that last week we were all happy to support?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is quite right to say that the Government’s position has been, and remains, to support an independent and transparent investigation into recent events. In this case, we joined European allies—notably Germany, Slovakia, Hungary and Croatia—in abstaining on calls for a commission of inquiry. I made the reasons for our abstention clear in my opening remarks. To that end, we were concerned that the resolution as presented could not be perceived as balanced because it did not look to ensure that non-state actors were fully considered. We remain true to the fact, however, that we will continue to work through all channels, calling for an international investigation into the events in Gaza last week. There is, as the noble Lord will know, a UN resolution at the Security Council on the situation regarding Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. We are aware that Kuwait has also tabled a draft resolution. We are currently considering the text carefully and will make a decision on the way forward on that in due course.

Syria

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 15th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, one key thing is to keep stressing peace talks with no preconditions. That is the clear message that we need to hear from the Government. As the Secretary-General of the United Nations said, evidence shows that gaining territory and seeking to win this war militarily do not work. Will the Minister convey that message to all the parties concerned? Talking is the only way that we are going to achieve a lasting peace.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I agree with the noble Lord. That is why the UN’s efforts have been geared to talks without preconditions, and the opposition voices in Syria have subscribed to that. Equally, the door is open to the Assad regime to participate in those talks. A UN-agreed settlement must be the right way forward, not individual players working out whose interests are best served by the regime continuing. I again implore Russia, and indeed Iran, to do their utmost to ensure that the regime participates in those important talks.

Gaza

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 15th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, all our thoughts are with those Palestinians in Gaza whose loved ones have been either killed or injured as a result of IDF action. During subsequent questions, Alistair Burt appeared to support the Secretary-General’s call for an independent and transparent investigation of these actions. He said that a team at the United Nations was working to find the right formulation, bearing in mind that a Kuwaiti attempt failed because it set out to apportion blame. What timescale are the Government working to in respect of a United Nations response, because it is clear that these matters need urgent and independent investigation?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, as my right honourable friend Alistair Burt said in another place, the United Kingdom Government support an independent and transparent process to establish exactly what happened, including why such a large volume of live fire was used. Given the importance of accountability, we want this to be both independent and transparent. On timelines, this is a UN process which needs to be agreed by all relevant parties. As that is updated, I shall inform the House and the noble Lord.

Syria: Idlib

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 9th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the key element of this is establishing peace talks that have no preconditions, so we can get all the players around the table. Aside from that urgent need, we also have a situation in Idlib where the Syrian Government are saying that everyone is a terrorist. There are terrible crimes against humanity taking place because the civilian population, as a consequence of this war, has gone from 1.5 million to 2.6 million people. The people who are being bombed are the civilians, which is against international humanitarian law. How will we hold people to account for these terrible crimes?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I agree with the noble Lord that what is required is a comprehensive settlement that has all partners around the table. I thank Her Majesty’s Opposition for also alluding to that. The need for the Geneva talks to succeed is important, because everyone is represented there. On his other point, again I agree totally with the noble Lord. We must ensure accountability for those who are perpetuating these crimes. As I have said before and say again, let us not forget who began this civil war and who has committed the atrocities that we currently see to their greatest extent in Syria. To accept that this person somehow has a future unifying role and representative voice—of course I refer to Bashar al-Assad—is not something I subscribe to. It is important that we see the transition we all desire in Syria.

European Organization for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere (Immunities and Privileges) (Amendment) Order 2018

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 9th May 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I address the orders, which I welcome and see as perfectly sensible for international organisations. I have two particular points. Yesterday, we debated in the House how Parliament will deal with the tsunami of SIs that are coming our way as a result of Brexit. As the Minister has just done in his conclusion, I draw attention to the fact that these orders contain three apologies for errors in previous orders and two corrections. This is a fairly simple, straightforward endorsement of the workings of multinational organisations in our country and abroad. There were five mistakes in one SI. With the best intentions in the world, we have to look at the real problems we will have in dealing with statutory instruments and the need for accuracy and effectiveness.

I can see a little scepticism in the room about me talking about the space industry. That is one of the great things about being in the House of Lords. I served as one of the main spokespeople for the party on the Space Industry Bill. We greatly enjoyed taking it through, but I immediately started getting letters that began with, “As an expert on the space industry”. I am not an expert but I should declare that my son, James, is a space engineer working in Munich for a Franco-German company.

My views are all my own and they impinge on the way in which the Minister introduced these orders, with reference to the space industry. I agree with the Minister that the prospects of the space industry are among the most exciting that face us. I am very proud that, under the coalition Government, the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, and Vince Cable did a lot to reinvigorate the space industry. I am reading Ken Clarke’s memoirs at the moment. He talks about the 1980s, when he was in the DTI, and how he and most of his colleagues had little interest in the space industry as a growth industry for the future.

Now, it is the exact opposite. There is tremendous excitement and a great deal of potential there. The Government have done a lot of good things since 2015 to carry the industry forward. I understand that the legislation covering the European space industry and other international commitments relating to space has nothing to do with our membership of the European Union. As I said, my son works in a Franco-German company; he works with Poles, Italians, Germans and the French as well as Brits. It stretches credulity not to imagine that an organisation such as that, which depends so much on international co-operation, will find it more difficult outside the EU to partner.

Space ports are a good example. When Europe looks for its space port, I wonder whether the Scottish, Welsh or Cornish bidder will have a better chance than the Portuguese when Europe makes its decision. It is the same with Galileo: we have already seen the removal of one of the Galileo preparatory units from Portsmouth back to mainland Europe. We have to face the fact that what is a very exciting industry will have some question marks over it, because of the decision on our membership of the EU. I once saw a very interesting documentary about what is going on down in Chile—although the ESO headquarters are in Munich, not where my son works, its main work is of course down in Chile. The documentary showed that it is exciting and right at the cutting edge of space exploration.

My only words to cloud this optimism is that I remember very clearly where I was 50 years ago, when man landed on the moon. Those of us who were alive then could not imagine that, 50 years later, we would have made so little progress in space exploration. On the other hand, my father, who was born in 1899, used to talk about how, as a boy growing up in Liverpool, he remembered seeing the first aeroplanes flying and what happened to flight in the 20th century. What I learned from the Space Industry Bill is that the space industry is probably where they were in the early 20th century and that it could make similar amazing progress. Along with that, the progress regarding satellite technology, deep space probes, the mining of asteroids and so on are on the agenda of our scientists and could make a massive difference to the century ahead.

I support the passage of the regulations, but I just give those two gypsy warnings about the difficulty of dealing with the SI tsunami that we face and the problems of making our space industry viable outside EU partnerships. Again, some of us are old enough to remember Blue Streak and other adventures into space and that going it alone did not work.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I know it is late in the day, so I will try not to bang on too much. I must admit, I did not expect to be making this speech again; as one of my brothers in the trade union movement used to say, it is déjà vu all over again. I do not know whether the Minister has had the opportunity to read the Lords Hansard from the last time we had this order but, if he has not, I will remind him of some of the contributions that I made. One mistake I made the last time we debated this order is that I managed to speak without saying the words, “the European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere”. I realised this because, when I was searching for my last contribution using the Hansard search facility, it did not bring up my contribution, as I had managed to not say those words. So, for the record, I have said them now, so that just in case we have to return to this subject again, I know I will be able to find it.

I appreciate the contribution made by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, and I share his sentiments completely, and those of the Minister, about the importance of this. It is, strictly speaking, a sort of HR issue. This is about how we are going to treat employees of this organisation in accordance with an international treaty. I do not object to that—it is quite proper and should be done.

The concern I have is that this relates to a convention from 1962, according to the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie. We may be talking about other issues, but the protocol that we agreed to in the 2009 order—which took effect in 2012—and which we were talking about last March, was discovered to be defective in June 2014. There was a considerable period of time when this error went unnoticed but we now have to return to the subject. Last time we discussed it there were 40 employees: 38 in Chile and two in Germany. What is the score now? How many people are we talking about? What has been the impact of this error? Have people suffered a detriment? What is the cost to those individuals? If there has been a cost or a detriment to these individuals, what is the Foreign Office doing to address that? Will there be some form of retrospection?

When the Minister, Sir Alan Duncan, wrote to me, he acknowledged the parliamentary time that had been taken up and he regretted that it had been wasted. I accept that errors and mistakes happen, but this order has had a rather unfortunate journey, and I think we need an explanation. We need an assurance that things will be put right, and that the error has not resulted in people suffering a detriment. It may be that over this period of time, people have gone into and out of employment, which may complicate matters even more. I do not want to put too many onerous questions to the Minister. We have had a busy day already and are at the final hurdle but I hope that he will be able to answer me. The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, was unable to answer me last time but I am hoping that the Minister will be able to on this occasion.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for their contributions. As we have agreed, being part of the European Space Agency brings real opportunities for British industry. Our scientists and engineers collaborate with their European colleagues at the European Space Agency to deliver important advances. Let us not forget that in 2018—the “Year of Engineering”—the inspiration that the European Space Agency provides is even more significant.

The amendment order puts in place the necessary immunities and privileges to allow the European Space Agency to operate effectively in the UK. It also aligns domestic law with obligations we have to our European colleagues at the European Space Agency, with whom we share an interest in increasing our knowledge of space. As both noble Lords have said, it also corrects errors in the order relating to the European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere —it comes off the tongue so smoothly that I am sure we will all remember it for future reference. There may be a test in a year’s time—hopefully not in the Chamber. Just as we benefit from our association with the European Space Agency belonging to this organisation, also known as the ESO, opens up a galaxy of opportunities for our scientists_. I notice that my officials have used real space terminology. The UK’s commitment to both the European Space Agency and—here we go again—the European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere remains unchanged.

I have already referred in my opening remarks to the regret that we have. Let me assure the noble Lords, Lord McNally and Lord Collins, that as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, just said, the journey which this order has been on has been turbulent. I understand totally their concern at the errors which were made in the order. The process is important. Let me assure the Committee that my department takes this issue very seriously. After the previous time this order was debated my noble friend Lady Goldie, who took that debate, followed up on it and we put right many of the clearance processes and revised our internal procedures for such orders. Although I cannot guarantee that there will be no error in any order in future, I can say on the record that our processes should pick up an error before orders are laid before Parliament. I totally empathise and align myself with the sentiment that we need to get this right.

The noble Lord, Lord McNally, talked about the tsunami of SIs which awaits us. It is important to ensure that in the approach we take when we lay orders in your Lordships’ House, and in the other place as well, the work is done and our processes reflect the importance that is attached to these issues.

The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked about the staff. For clarity, let me say that the provision would apply only to those who are UK staff or UK nationals working in the UK. In this case, there are 42 employees who are UK nationals and ESO staff but none is currently in the UK. All are in Germany or Chile. We would therefore need to interrogate individual employee records since, as the noble Lord said, people may have moved locations. When he raised this issue with my noble friend previously, we said that we would put right any wrong in this respect. I can reassure him that, as I said, there are currently no such UK nationals employed in the UK. On the last occasion, the Government also undertook to treat sympathetically—I think my noble friend used that word—any approach made by any employee caught up in such a situation. I can confirm on the record that we have not been approached by any individual in that regard, but I assure the Committee that we will keep a watch on this. If there are any implications, I will certainly share them with the noble Lords concerned.

I hope that I have given reassurance to the noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord McNally, about the importance of the procedure that should be deployed on statutory instruments in general, and specifically on this order. I hope that this is the end of it on this legislation. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, talked of how people are inspired and said that his son is employed in the space agency. We learn a lot from our children. After a conversation about space, I may have two aspiring astronauts: a six year-old called Mansoor and a four year-old called Faris. I am not embarrassed to admit that when my four year-old said, “Daddy, how many planets are there in the solar system?”, I responded with the figure nine. He said, “No”. I named them and he went, “Daddy, Pluto is not a planet. It’s a dwarf planet”.

We live and learn from our children, from our elders and seniors and from noble Lords. In doing so, we all align ourselves with this important industry and we want to inspire not just the current generation, as taken up by the son of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, but future generations. Maybe at some point in time when my six year-old and my four year-old understand the concept of statutory instruments, I shall share this chapter of their father’s life with them as well. I am grateful to noble Lords for their contributions.

Commonwealth Summit: Freedom of Religion or Belief

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 25th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

First, I pay tribute to my noble friend’s work in this area. Let me assure my noble friend, and indeed all noble Lords, that this continues to be a key priority for Her Majesty’s Government. During the course of the Commonwealth summit, various announcements were made on the broader human rights agenda, including a financing proposal in support of this. As a further assurance, I am sure that she has read the Written Ministerial Statement from my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, which was laid in this House by my noble friend the Leader of the House. It talks specifically about the values agenda, ensuring that all people’s rights, wherever they are in the Commonwealth, are fully protected. I also offer to work with my noble friend Lady Berridge on key priorities as we plan for our two years in office.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on his efforts at CHOGM to ensure that these issues were raised. Of course, he is quite right to point out the importance of freedom of religious belief in terms of combating extremism and promoting democracy. Is there not now a case for ensuring that freedom of religious belief is mainstreamed across all Westminster departments, because it is not just simply the Foreign Office that needs to be responsible for this? Is there not a case for a champion who can work across government departments?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord makes an important point. Let me assure him that we are working across Whitehall on this important priority as with other areas, particularly with our colleagues in the Department for International Development. The other notable feature is that, on taking this office, I wrote to all our diplomatic missions—not just in the Commonwealth but throughout the world— prioritising this issue. We have champions within key priority countries as well, who are focusing on the very issues of freedom of religion or belief and the protection of minority rights, guaranteeing their rights as citizens of those countries.

Israel-Palestine Conflict

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 27th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As I have already said in my original Answer, of course the importance of refugees returning to the Holy Land, to the Palestinian territories, is an important part of the peace resolution. Let me reassure the noble Baroness that, in terms of money and financing, as I have already said we remain committed to UNRWA and continue to provide support. We also continue to provide financial support to the Palestinian Authority. This financial support allows for the education for the next generation, which I know is a priority for the noble Baroness. While I fully acknowledge the challenge of the Palestinian refugees, particularly those living in camps, from a UK perspective we remain committed to the two-state solution and also committed to supporting UNRWA in its efforts.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister keeps mentioning UNRWA, but the President of the United States has decided that the Palestinians’ position needs to be punished and that there needs to be some form of retribution because of their decision over Jerusalem. What are the Government doing to persuade the US that punishing the Palestinians is not the right way forward, and that we should be working together as allies to support UNRWA? Have the Government had any discussions at Foreign Office level with the new national security adviser and the new Secretary of State, both of whom have taken positions that could make life very difficult for the Palestinians?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I reassure the noble Lord that I speak for Her Majesty’s Government, and the Government remain committed to a two-state solution and to UNRWA. Regarding the relationship with the United States, we continue to implore the United States, which is a key player in finding a lasting Middle East settlement, to engage fully with all parties and to continue engagement with both the Palestinians and the Israelis in finding a resolution to this crisis, which, as the noble Baroness has said, has gone on for far too long. In response to the question about specific meetings, most recently my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has had discussions on a range of issues relating to foreign policy with American counterparts, and we continue to do so.

Nigeria

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, clearly a key issue is that these herdsmen have been affected by changes in the law. Surely there must be a way forward that understands their needs, as well as ensuring that communities are not affected by the violence outlined by the noble Baroness. What are the Government doing to work out a way forward by supporting civil society initiatives that will enable the herdsmen to carry on living the life that they so desire to live?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Of course the role of civil society is important, but if we look at the conflict in Nigeria, we estimate that more than 20,000 people have been killed and more than 70 million affected. The current crisis is not just one of religion; in some parts, the herdsmen are Christians while the farmers are Muslims. It is the likes of Boko Haram, particularly in the northern part of the country, which have driven the herdsmen into territories that they were not previously occupying. So it is more complex than it is sometimes painted, which is as a particular issue between two faiths. It is not; it goes far deeper, and Boko Haram is driving these herdsmen south.

Commonwealth Summit: Human Rights

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 21st March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

On the first point, yes I am committed to that. On the Committee of the Whole, the UK’s position, including on the broad spectrum of human rights, will be raised during the discussions, which, as I said, are taking place right now.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

I welcome what the Minister said in relation to the fora, and the voices in the fora actually being heard by the leaders. But can we do more to ensure that voices on human rights are not simply the British Government’s but that we work with other allies, particularly in Africa? For example, we will have the new President of South Africa—and I have raised this point with the Minister before—who wrote the constitution of South Africa, ensuring that LGBT rights were guaranteed in the constitution. Can we not do more to ensure that other voices are heard?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is of course quite right to remind me that he has raised this with me before. We have followed up on this, and I assure him that, although there is always more to do, we will continue to do so on LGBT rights, and more broadly across the human rights spectrum.

Syria

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 20th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The Government’s position is very clear. We do not believe that the Assad regime, or indeed Assad himself, can be involved in the future of Syria, and we have said that it is for the Syrian people to choose a transition arrangement. We are imploring all parties, including the Russians, the Iranians and all those who have influence over the Assad regime, to move forward so that a peaceful transition can be reached. In terms of dealing directly with the Assad regime, our position does not change: we do not believe that there is a future for Syria with the Assad regime in place.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, no one would disagree with the noble Lord’s sentiments about the need for a peace settlement involving all parties. We have recently seen Turkish forces in Afrin and it is possible that they are moving on to other towns where the US has military bases. We could be facing a scenario where two NATO allies are supporting different sides in a conflict and exacerbating the situation. What role are we playing in NATO and the UN in trying at least to bring our allies together, rather than just opponents?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure the noble Lord that we are following very closely the developments in Afrin and in the wider northern and western Syrian provinces. We call repeatedly for de-escalation and for the protection of civilians. We are using our good offices through NATO and the UN and through bilateral exchanges directly with the Turkish Administration to call for that very de-escalation.

Foreign Policy: Parliamentary Participation

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am sure all those who are involved with the various committees and bodies will listen carefully to the noble Lord’s suggestion. From the Government’s perspective, I reiterate that we have bolstered many of our positions in European capitals in preparedness for the post-Brexit world. As for parliamentary support, I am sure that the extra support within our different missions across Europe will also assist. If I may say so as Minister for the UN, we are also adding to our support in our missions in New York and in Geneva, which will also assist parliamentary colleagues when they visit those offices.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, something of great concern to many noble Lords is the EU withdrawal Bill going through the House, which represents the biggest power grab by the Executive. This Question relates to Parliament and its right to scrutinise legislation. The Minister may not have heard it, but last week at 2.30 in the morning I moved an amendment. It was a shame it was so late, but I had a good audience on his side. That amendment sought to empower Parliament to do its job to scrutinise international treaties. Will the Minister ensure that he is present at 2.30 tomorrow morning when we debate these issues to ensure that Parliament can keep its power to scrutinise?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I would not be as brave as the noble Lord and predict how long Parliament will sit tomorrow but, as he conceded, on the government side, we listen carefully to his words, as was demonstrated only last week.

In terms of ensuring parliamentary scrutiny, this is about taking back control and ensuring that every piece of legislation is scrutinised by Parliament. Indeed, when we discussed the EU sanctions Bill, I responded positively, I hope, on ensuring the affirmative nature of secondary legislation. As for parliamentary scrutiny of the EU withdrawal Bill specifically, look at the number of hours it was debated in the House of Commons. I turn to my noble friend who sits not too distant from me to consider the hours he and his team and other noble friends on the Front Bench are spending on this issue. I am sure the noble Lord would acknowledge that the Government are ensuring that there is full scrutiny of all legislation, including the EU withdrawal Bill.

Saudi Arabia

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 7th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for repeating that response to the Urgent Question. There is no doubt that we need a good diplomatic and economic relationship with Saudi Arabia. But as in any good relationship, we must have honesty. I fear that the United Kingdom’s protests against serious human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia are so subtle that they are clearly not being heard. In the eight months since he became Crown Prince we have seen the number of executions in Saudi Arabia double. We, like the Prince, who was rightly enraged at the Houthi rebels’ missile attack on Riyadh in December, condemned that attack. But the response from the Saudis was a 10-day barrage of indiscriminate air strikes on civilian areas, killing and injuring hundreds, including dozens of children.

In July last year, the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury said,

“the depth of our relationship with Saudi Arabia in trade and finance … would indicate that we have the options for significantly more leverage than mere condemnation”.—[Official Report, 18/7/17; col. 1523.]

Like the most reverend Primate I wonder what other measures the Government are taking which involve action as well as condemnation.

The Government talk about the peace process in Yemen. What has happened to the United Nations resolution that we drafted, with which the Saudis refuse to co-operate? Will the Minister tonight pledge that we will, as a pen holder on Yemen, demand at the United Nations an immediate ceasefire, proper peace talks and a permanent end to this dreadful war?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, as the noble Lord is aware, reforms have been initiated by His Royal Highness the Crown Prince. He is right to raise the important issue of human rights. On the issue of Yemen, we will continue to push for a political settlement with all the influence we have, both through international forums and directly and bilaterally with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. On the general issue of human rights, we should look at the record of the Crown Prince. While there are, of course, many areas still to focus on, we must look at the starting point. Some of the announcements that have been made on issues of greater gender equality may, from our perspective, seem like a small step forward. But if we look at the recent history of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia the reforms we have seen on women’s rights in particular, both in terms of driving and attending sports events, are a positive step forward.

Another area of reform on which I have been encouraged is greater expression and freedom of religion and belief. As the noble Lord may be aware, on the Crown Prince’s visit to the United Kingdom he stopped in Egypt. Another area we have often discussed at the Dispatch Box is the plight of Coptic Christians in Egypt, and I was heartened that during the Crown Prince’s visit he visited the Pope of the Coptic Church and actually did so in the cathedral. We believe these are positive steps forward, especially if looked at through the lens of Saudi society. We will therefore continue to work on a strong bilateral basis to ensure that many of the issues the noble Lord and I have discussed before will continue to be raised, including the important issue of human rights. Because of our relationship with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia I believe we will be able to see further movement in that respect.

ISIS: Trial of British Citizens

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 28th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first of all, my noble friend will be fully aware that the key advice we have given in all respects to anyone seeking to travel to the area is not to do so because they then open themselves up to great danger. She is correct to say that the UK does not have a consular presence in Syria and cannot provide support to British nationals in Syria in this regard. On the specific case that she raises, I will certainly write to her to make it clear that whatever contact and support we can provide, we have. However, as has been talked through by respective Ministers across both Houses, the general and important point is: in both Syria and, to a lesser degree, Iraq, the key advice has always been not to travel to that area because the Government cannot provide consular assistance until we have assistance on the ground.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, of the two British men who have been accused of committing crimes on behalf of ISIS, the Defence Secretary says that no way should they come back to the United Kingdom to face trial. The Home Secretary is less certain. We have even had a former Minister say that people should be shot for their crimes if they are in a warzone. Surely the Minister can take the Government’s responsibility seriously. The line he is giving us this afternoon is the correct one. These people must be held to account and put to trial, and upholding the rule of law must be our vital concern.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, it is not just the line that I have been given, it is the line that I believe in as the Minister with responsibility for human rights. We must hold people to account but, at the same time, in parallel, ensure that international humanitarian law is upheld.

International Development Committee: Burma Visas

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 28th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the response to that Urgent Question. Clearly, the refusal of visas for the IDC is a shocking development. Stephen Twigg, chair of the IDC in the other place, said it was his belief that this was as a direct result of the intervention of Aung San Suu Kyi. During his interview yesterday on the BBC’s “Today” programme, the Foreign Secretary said that we need to understand the historic problem and how Aung San Suu Kyi feels the pressure. Surely our response now must be to exert more pressure, without, as he says, hurting those who need our help most.

Last October, in an Oral Question in this Chamber, I told the Minister that I welcomed the suspension of aid to the Burmese military but asked whether we should now consider the suspension of support to the DfID funding of parliamentary advice, as well as to the WFD funding of advice to the Myanmar Government. Surely now is the time to show our discontent and put pressure on those who have made this decision. The fact is that Myanmar is refusing access to the UN fact-finding mission and to the UN Refugee Agency, the only agency with the expertise and credibility to monitor the repatriation of the Rohingya people. What are the Government going to do? How do we ensure access, not only for the IDC but for the United Nations?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the noble Lord is aware that I agree with many of the sentiments he has expressed. Let me reassure him and all noble Lords that the Government continue to implore the Burmese authorities, the civilian Government and the military authorities to provide full and unfettered access to all agencies. The noble Lord talked of the United Nations, and we continue to lobby on that. While there has been some progress—for example, the visit of the Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Sexual Violence in Conflict—the access, particularly to Rakhine and northern Rakhine, has been very limited.

I can assure the noble Lord that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary remains focused on the issue of Burma. Indeed, he visited Burma recently and made it clear to the civilian authority and to Aung San Suu Kyi in particular, whom he met directly—he has spoken to her a number of times during the conflict since the summer of last year—that it was unacceptable. There is a reality check for the civilian Government. Close to 1 million Rohingya people have moved to Bangladesh since the early times of the conflict over a three-year period and it is time that they returned to Burma, but they can only do so under secure and safe protection, and that is one of the key areas of focus.

I can further assure the noble Lord because only yesterday I was at the Human Rights Council, where I met the Burmese Foreign Minister. I made it clear to him directly that we do not accept the prevailing situation. We will continue to press and to raise this issue both bilaterally and through international fora.

On the issue of DfID aid specifically, I note what the noble Lord has said. However, I am sure he will accept that some of the aid programmes focused on Burma at the moment are delivering real assistance to some of the people who need basic services such as nutrition and water supplies. I know the noble Lord agrees. He raised important issues about capacity building within the context of the Government. It is important that we retain communication lines with the Burmese authorities—the civilian authority in particular.

I can assure all noble Lords that we continue to press the Burmese authorities to ensure access for all humanitarian agencies so that people can continue to receive the aid they need.

Syria: Humanitarian Situation

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 26th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the response to the Urgent Question. Since the UN resolution, we have seen continued indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas, the targeting of hospitals and medical centres and the use of starvation as a weapon of war. There can be no impunity for those responsible for what are quite clearly war crimes. I hope the Minister will agree with that.

The Government have said that they will convene another Security Council meeting to discuss Assad’s refusal to accept the ceasefire. It appears that, by excluding military action against terrorists, Assad and his allies have used this to justify continuing their assault against the jihadist armies in eastern Ghouta. An hour ago, the BBC reported that President Putin had ordered a pause in the assault, starting on Tuesday, and to include the humanitarian corridor. The pause is from 9 am to 2 pm local time—a pause that simply is not good enough. Does the Minister agree that, to stop the assault on eastern Ghouta, the UN should be clear that there must be a temporary cessation of all military action within Syria?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I agree totally with the noble Lord. The perpetrators who are committing these acts need to be held to account. Indeed, that sentiment was aired by the Foreign Secretary in the delivery of the Statement. I also remind noble Lords, in answer to the specific questions raised by the noble Lord on the issue of the Syrian regime’s continued bombardment of eastern Ghouta, it is notable that the main armed groups there, including Jaish al-Islam and Faylaq al-Rahman, have both accepted the terms of the ceasefire. I agree again totally with the noble Lord on the announcements in the news media from the Russian President, although I have not heard the full announcement yet. Having a small window to bring aid and critical medical assistance to the suffering people of eastern Ghouta is not good enough. The resolution stressed, as did the discussions in the Security Council, the need for a 30-day ceasefire, and that is what we are continuing to press for. Indeed, that is why we have asked the Security Council to reconvene.

Syria: Eastern Ghouta

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 22nd February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The right reverend Prelate is right to raise this. I think that all of us have been shocked by the images that we continue to see. If I may digress, I will pay brief tribute to the White Helmets in particular, who are working in intolerable conditions, often helping their own family members. As regards the right reverend Prelate’s two questions, of course we hope that we will reach a resolution today. There was a discussion yesterday, and both Sweden and Kuwait are pressing specifically for a vote on a humanitarian Security Council resolution, which will also include a 30-day cessation.

As the right reverend Prelate will be aware, the area is very near Damascus, and UN agencies—whose efforts we will of course support—are already set up to immediately evacuate the 700 or so people who have been listed as in need of urgent attention and also to provide humanitarian assistance. If, regrettably and challengingly, the Security Council resolution is not reached, I assure all noble Lords, including the right reverend Prelate, that we will continue to press through all agencies, including not just the Syrian regime but also Russia, which has a major role to play in this. It is backing the Assad regime, and we will continue, both bilaterally and through international fora, to press Russia for an early resolution.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the stories we heard on the radio today are incredibly shocking. But we cannot go on with parallel peace processes with the Russians and the UN. Surely we need global leadership now to bring all sides together and focus on it. Will the Government provide that global leadership and make a clear statement—as I said on the previous occasion—that people cannot act with impunity?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

On the second point, the noble Lord knows that I agree with him totally. People must be held to account, and the United Kingdom is already seeking to collect evidence of the inhumane acts which have been committed during this conflict in Syria. On his earlier point, I believe strongly in the United Nations. The key interlocutors in this respect include Russia, which is a permanent member of the Security Council, so I believe strongly that the United Nations is the place where resolution can be reached. Indeed, the other talks in Astana that the Russians were leading have also stalled, so I believe strongly that the United Nations remains the right forum in which decisions can be reached and lasting solutions achieved.

Commonwealth Summit

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 20th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is correct in his statement that the university sector is an important part of the Commonwealth. In this regard, the Commonwealth summit unit within the Cabinet Office is working very closely with the Association of Commonwealth Universities, which has over 500 members, and the Commonwealth Scholarship Commission, which has 900 scholars and thousands of alumni. As for our own commitment, we are giving over £25 million in the current year on the issue of Commonwealth scholarships. These are all part and parcel of the engagement. I am sure all noble Lords will be pleased to know that there is a specific youth forum during the Commonwealth summit week, which is being organised by those 60% of people under 30 across the Commonwealth family.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, one of the aspects of the CHOGM event is that it is an opportunity for Heads of Government to meet civil society. The Minister has mentioned the several different forums that will be taking place. It is also an opportunity to welcome the new South African President to this country. As chair of the constitution committee, he created a first with the constitutional protections for gay rights in the constitution. Will the Minister take the opportunity to ensure that Cyril Ramaphosa is able to meet civil society and the Commonwealth Equality Network so that we can have a voice from Africa standing up for LGBT rights?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the noble Lord has put forward a very practical and helpful suggestion and I will follow it up with the Commonwealth unit and the South African high commission. On the broader point about LGBT rights, which I have talked about previously in this Chamber, I have just returned from the Gambia. I assure all noble Lords that during the various meetings that I had with senior members of its Government the issue of LGBT rights, among other human rights, was raised directly.

Gulf States: Human Rights

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 8th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord raises an important case, and of course there are other specific cases that we have raised directly, on a bilateral basis, with the Bahrain authorities. I assure all noble Lords that we continue both to monitor such cases and to raise them on a bilateral basis. We have also extended support and training to ensure greater independence of oversight bodies, so that those issues of human rights can be dealt with domestically. I reassure the noble Lord that we take these matters seriously and consistently raise them directly with the Bahrain Government.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, in last year’s Foreign Office review of and report on human rights, Bahrain was identified as a country of interest. It reported progress, with the Government confident that the reform agenda would be followed, but, as we have heard from the previous question, there is now a backward trend. Can the Minister reassure us that the steps for progress outlined last year will be fully taken up and that we will see some change in terms of reform?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is quite right to raise this issue as outlined in the human rights report. As I said in my original Answer, Bahrain is not just a concern but one of the priority countries when it comes to a range of human rights concerns. I can reassure the noble Lord that we will continue to focus on the very priorities that he has highlighted to ensure that Bahrain remains true to the commitments that it has made with the international community and in its bilateral exchanges with members of our Government.

Turkey: Human Rights

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 29th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Britain’s position with Turkey goes beyond our membership of the European Union. Let it not be forgotten that the United Kingdom has been the strongest voice for Turkey’s membership, to broaden the base of the European Union. I disagree with my noble friend: it is not a small decision or issue. Leaving the European Union, with the opportunities that provides to global Britain, will present the United Kingdom with a new way of defining relationships; we will continue to strengthen our existing relationship and influence with Turkey.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, for a long time the United Kingdom’s policy towards Turkey was to encourage it to join the European Union, for the very good reason that it improved standards, held people to account and applied the rule of law. By leaving, we will be saying to Turkey: “Do what we say”. That is not good enough. Surely, we need to act collectively to defend human rights.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord is aware that we will act to defend human rights, not just with our European Union partners—we will continue to have a strong relationship with them on this important issue once we have left the Union—but also through other bodies such as the UN body on human rights. We will continue to make the case for human rights across the piece. That also means that when we see human rights abuses in countries such as Turkey, with which we have relationships, we stand up and make our position absolutely clear.

Brexit: Foreign Policy

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 25th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

First, I disagree with the noble Baroness’s final point that the influence is decreasing. On the contrary, I have not found that when I have travelled across the world. For example, when I was in Ghana, we had various meetings with the EU representative as well as our high commissioner on the ground. The noble Baroness will know that the specifics are yet to be determined, but it is very clear to me and the Government that we will continue to have very strong ties with our European partners. Recent events such as the UK-French summit and the meeting in Poland demonstrated that other European partners take the same view.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the key point is that our deep relationship and partnership has added value to collective action. The world faces its biggest refugee crisis, and leaving the EU will weaken our ability to act collectively. What are the Government doing to ensure that in the future, working with DfID and the ODA budget, we can act collectively in Europe to protect our security interests, not least the humanitarian concerns facing the world?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

We are, I believe, one of only a few leading nations that fully manifest our commitment to our defence spending and our development spending, which I know all noble Lords support. On the noble Lord’s substantive point about how we will continue to work with our European partners on important issues which he raises such as the refugee crisis that we have seen on European borders, again, if he was to look at the detail of the recent summit with the French, he would see that these kinds of issues come to the fore and decisions are being taken. While, yes, we are leaving the European Union, we will look to work in a collaborative way with our European Union partners once we leave.

Hong Kong

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 24th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

As the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, said, this is an international treaty. In the debate in Westminster Hall yesterday, Mark Field said that we will continue to raise with the Chinese authorities our concerns, particularly on the Ben Rogers situation, but also about the ongoing arrests—28 last month. If we are to continue to raise our concerns, is it not about time that we escalated this so that the Prime Minister demands answers from China on these breaches of an international treaty?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As the noble Lord may be aware, at the last G20 meeting my right honourable friend the Prime Minister raised various issues in this respect. On his point about escalation and Ben Rogers, he may be aware that, at that time, the Chinese ambassador to the UK was also summoned to the Foreign Office. I have met Ben Rogers, as have other Ministers, since this incident took place. Let me reassure the noble Lord—indeed, all noble Lords—that we continue to use every opportunity, both bilaterally and through international fora, to raise the important issue of the international agreement, to which both countries are signatories.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 24th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I will be very brief. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, on pushing this issue. I do not think he owes anyone an apology for doing so because it is vital that we tackle this. This amendment is about the commitment that was made but has been delayed for a long time. My concern, and that of the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, is that the wording of the amendment potentially takes us to 2022 before we see something. I think all noble Lords will be behind the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, in putting pressure on the Government to ensure that they properly meet their commitment.

Still on public registers, I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. I am glad to see that the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, is in her place. She made a powerful case for public registers in overseas territories. The front page of today’s Guardian has an article about Appleby and FBME Bank, which was banned from the US financial system. Appleby is a Cayman Islands-registered holding company. Anyone who reads that article will know that this issue will not go away and we will have to come back to it.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords. I reiterate my thanks to my noble friends Lord Faulks and Lord Hodgson for pressing the Government and holding us to account in this respect and ensuring that we move forward. I am also grateful to my noble friend Lord Naseby, who sought clarification. I have looked carefully at his amendment and I think what the Government have tabled and his amendment have the same intent. However, in the interests of ensuring thoroughness and completeness, I have asked officials to look again to make sure that the intent behind his amendment is achieved.

The Government have committed to the new Bill establishing the register. It will be primary legislation and will pass through your Lordships’ House, so I am sure there will be further discussions and plenty of opportunity to ensure that all issues, particularly those raised by my noble friend, are addressed. I assure him that we feel the intent behind his amendment has been achieved. I will, however, look at this again, and if there is a need to do anything further, we will seek to do that in the other place.

My noble friend Lord Hodgson asked me when Royal Assent might be granted. It is not within my gift as the Minister at the Dispatch Box to confirm that, but we are expecting Royal Assent at the end of this Session. On accountability, I reassure my noble friend that through the additional ministerial Statement laid today, I have sought to provide as much detail as I can at this juncture in the parliamentary timetable. However, as I said to him in our bilateral meetings—I believe this was communicated to him subsequently in other meetings we had—we have worked back, and as the Written Ministerial Statement again confirms, we are looking to have the register operational by 2021. I am sure there will be other opportunities. As for the Government laying a report, I confirm that the 12- month clock—the countdown—will commence as soon as Her Majesty has signed off on the Bill. However, it would be beyond the scope of my responsibilities to give an absolute, cast-iron guarantee as to when Royal Assent will be. I am sure my noble friend appreciates and respects that we have to follow due process. However, the Government are committed to the register being operational in 2021. From the points made by other noble Lords, I appreciate that wherever one is sitting in your Lordships’ House, there is no disagreement on the need to move forward on this and to do so as rapidly as we can.

My noble friend raised another issue, about procurement. Again, to reassure him on that, I draw his attention to the Written Ministerial Statement laid today by my noble friend Lord Henley, which says:

“I am today confirming to Parliament the Government’s timetable for implementation of its policy to achieve greater transparency around foreign entities that own or buy property in the UK or participate in UK Government procurement”.


As the Bill is drafted and pre-legislative scrutiny takes place on it—if that is the process which is agreed—that will allow further discussion to address the very points my noble friend raises in that primary piece of legislation.

The point about local government is well made. As someone who served 10 years in local government, I am acutely aware of how procurement works. It will reflect the very policies adopted by the UK Government. With those reassurances, I hope my noble friend will be minded to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

My Lords, I add my thanks to everyone involved in the Bill. I start by thanking my own team, my noble friend Lord Lennie and my noble and learned friend Lord Davidson. These people do not often get thanked publicly, but I thank also the team in the Labour opposition office, including Catherine Johnson, who did a particularly good job in helping me to be well prepared for my numerous meetings with the Minister.

I also thank the Lib Dem Benches, particularly the noble Baronesses, Lady Northover, Lady Kramer and Lady Bowles. We, again, had numerous meetings. One thing that the Minister omitted to mention—he mentioned all the time that we spent in Committee, in the Chamber, scrutinising the Bill—was that we spent substantial time in meetings outside the Chamber. In fact, the Minister got quite anxious at one point when I turned up to meetings with the noble Lord, Lord Faulks. I am sure he felt that I was in the wrong meeting at the time. We had very good cross-party and cross-Bench support, and I add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge. We now have a better Bill. It is not necessarily a good Bill in all respects, but it is a much better one than what was originally delivered.

I also pay tribute and thanks to the Bill team, particularly Louise Williams, Adam Morley and Jennifer Budniak, and of course the lawyers. I think I had the most pleasure dealing with the lawyers, and I hope Luke Barfoot and Michael Atkins enjoyed those exchanges as well. They did a terrific job; they are great public servants and, again, they deserve our thanks and gratitude. Obviously, as the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, said, their work will continue.

One thing that surprised me was that at one of the lengthy meetings I had with the Minister, the BBC fly-on-the-wall cameras were there. I hope to God it is better than the programme it did on the House of Lords. I certainly hope I come across much better than some noble Lords did, but let us wait and see—I do not know when it will come out.

My final thanks, of course, go to the Minister. He said at the beginning of this Bill, “I am in listening mode” and I know we joked about that, but honestly, he has listened and his responses prove how much he listened. I am very grateful to him for dealing with us so well on this Bill.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I want again to thank all noble Lords.

Freedom of Religion and Belief

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 18th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the APPG. I certainly support its work and its report, but religion is often used as a cover for oppressing other minorities, particularly the LGBT community. A charity I am a patron of, an HIV centre in the East End of London, is working with faith groups on practical ways we can build respect and address concerns. Does the Foreign Office see the benefit of this sort of work, and is it supporting such work in other countries?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord knows I agree with him totally. We have seen exactly those kinds of initiatives working domestically, which are of great value. In discussions we have had—and he will be aware of this—I have often said that faith communities should approach all these issues, including those of LGBT rights, as defined human rights issues. When we look at these issues through the prism of religion, the issues of fairness, equality and justice should prevail.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 17th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, my name is attached to Amendment 74, and of course to Amendment 71A. I will not repeat what the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, said on Amendment 74, but this demand has been made for some considerable time. It is important that we act to ensure that all players involved in such criminal activity are brought to justice. That was reinforced by the Serious Fraud Office, too. On Amendment 71A, I concur wholeheartedly with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, but the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, hit the nail on the head. On Monday this House spoke very clearly on this principle. It is of concern that the Minister, who has been in effective listening mode on a lot of the amendments, particularly in this group, has not reflected properly on Monday’s decision. How do we constrain these powers, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said? If the Minister is not prepared to say how he will do that, I have no doubt that this House will speak with the same voice as it did on Monday.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, the opening line here says “I wish to thank noble Lords for putting forward this amendment”. I am not sure whether that best reflects the sentiments of the House. However, as I have said before, I deeply appreciate that this is a matter of great interest and concern to many in your Lordships’ House. In proceeding, I hope that in part I can reassure noble Lords that the powers in the Bill are taken with the utmost regard to your Lordships’ concerns. In the wider context, I also thank noble Lords for the practical, helpful and constructive engagement we have had. As a government Minister, I always approach legislation with the view that there will be times when we will disagree, but equally, we disagree with great respect to the House and to the incredible experience and wisdom in it. Where we are unable to agree, that does not mean that we have not listened. The Government’s position is a listening one, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, said, and as we have demonstrably shown on both parts of the Bill. I also thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Kramer and Lady Bowles, for the constructive engagement we have had on the anti-money laundering aspects, and I am grateful for the key co-ordination role—I hope she will not hold this against me—that the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, played on this. I also very much appreciated the expertise that the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, in particular, brought to this group.

Amendment 71A seeks to prevent regulations from making provisions that create new criminal offences. It is not unusual for requirements to be set in delegated legislation which can be enforced using criminal penalties, both in financial services legislation and other regimes such as health and safety. As I am sure all noble Lords are aware, in accordance with standard practice when implementing EU directives, criminal offences in this area have already been created in delegated legislation, in the Money Laundering Regulations 2017, made under the powers given by the European Communities Act 1972. This was also the case in their precursor, the Money Laundering Regulations 2007, which were brought into force—notwithstanding the contribution made by the noble Lord, Lord Collins—by the then Labour Government. The Bill therefore makes no changes to the current position in this sense and reflects the Government’s firm intention to continue imposing criminal penalties for breaches of anti-money laundering requirements.

These detailed provisions, setting standards and procedures for regulated businesses, should also be seen in the context of a separate penalty regime for the key substantive money laundering offences. Such offences are established under Part 7 of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, which provides for more punitive prison sentences of up to 14 years—for example, for those guilty of directly laundering the proceeds of crime.

The Government’s view is that removing their power to create criminal offences under secondary legislation would seriously weaken the enforceability of new regulations and therefore lower the effectiveness of the UK’s anti-money laundering regime.

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[Lord Collins of Highbury]

My Lords, I do not want to take up too much time. The noble Baroness, Lady Stern, made an incredibly powerful speech in support of her amendment, to which I added my name. I want to say something in relation to setting international standards and trying to reach international agreement. Ultimately, that is the correct way. It is the solution. But there are many ways of achieving that. David Cameron realised that, actually, setting the standards and taking the lead is the way to reach international agreement—not sitting on our hands and saying, “Let’s see what others do first”. We need to take the lead and set the standards. When we talk about reputation, it is our family of nations that will suffer reputationally if we do not adopt this amendment tonight.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken the time to contribute to this important debate. The amendment would require the Secretary of State to provide all reasonable assistance to the Governments of certain of the British Overseas Territories with significant financial centres to enable each of those named overseas territories to establish a public register of company beneficial ownership. It further provides that, if by 1 January 2020 such overseas territories have not established such a register, the UK Secretary of State should take all reasonable steps to ensure that the Privy Council legislates to require the overseas territory to do so.

I am again grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Stern. We have had a constructive discussion where we laid out the differences over our approach. I do not object to the fact that we are all seeking—that is clear from all contributions today—to ensure fairness and transparency but also to do the right thing to ensure progress in this regard. I appreciate that the deadline set in this revised amendment for preparation of an Order in Council has been put back by one year compared with the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness and others in Committee. I previously addressed many of these points in Committee. But I hope that the House will bear with me if I reiterate certain key points.

I first want to inform noble Lords of the commitments that the territories have made to advance transparency in the company and tax fields. We heard the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, talk about taking leadership, having that relationship and allowing the British Government to work with the overseas territories and that this amendment is the way to achieve that. But we are already doing it. The overseas territories are part of my responsibilities as a Minister. They are totally engaged on this agenda. With respect, the noble Baroness laid out a series of assertions on how money laundering and certain activities occur. Is it right that these six territories alone are singled out? Where is the evidence base? That is important, but so is the action that is being taken. We need to focus on that.

For example, the overseas territories with financial centres are leading the world. They are among the early adopters of the OECD common reporting standard. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that the overseas territories, working with the British Government, are taking the lead. There is an agreement under which they automatically exchange offshore financial account information with taxpayers’ jurisdictions of residence. They started exchanging information with third jurisdictions in September last year. I join many noble Lords in the Chamber in commending our previous Prime Minister, David Cameron, and the steps that he took. But the process that we are now following is exactly the same process that was agreed during the coalition years with the Liberal Democrats. Since September 2016—in other words, a year before the common reporting standard came into effect, so I say to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, that this is another example of taking the lead—HMRC has been receiving data on accounts held in the overseas territories by UK taxpayers and has used this to further its compliance work.

The issue of public registers is relevant here. None of this means that we do not want to see the overseas territories take further action to move forward on the transparency agenda. We should, however, acknowledge the significant steps that they have already taken in this area and build incrementally on that progress, in partnership and with support.

As noble Lords will acknowledge, the UK is at the forefront of promoting corporate transparency. The UK is the only G20 country to have fully established a public register of company beneficial ownership and we continue to push for this to become—in the words of the noble Lord—a global standard. As I noted in Committee, however, the international standards set by the Financial Action Task Force do not require this, reflecting a lack of international consensus in this area. I am grateful to noble Lords who contributed on this. These standards state:

“Countries should ensure that there is adequate, accurate and timely information on the beneficial ownership and control of legal persons that can be obtained or accessed in a timely fashion by competent authorities”—


for example, tax authorities and law enforcement authorities. The OTs are moving ahead on this agenda. Nevertheless, should public registers become the global standard, we would of course expect the overseas territories and Crown dependencies to meet this standard. The territories themselves have indicated their willingness to adopt a public register in that event.

I will highlight something important to this debate: namely, the progress that the overseas territories have already made on the beneficial ownership agenda in a relatively short time. Since we concluded our arrangements with them in the run-up to the Anti-Corruption Summit of 2016, the territories, which have their own legislative bodies and elected representatives, have passed new primary legislation and delivered technological improvements to comply with the terms of the arrangements known as the exchange of notes. I am grateful to my noble friends Lord Leigh and Lord Flight for highlighting the positive progress that the OTs have made in this respect. My noble friend Lord Naseby also pointed to the positive steps taken by Cayman.

Under these arrangements, each of the overseas territories with a significant financial centre committed to hold beneficial ownership information in a central register or a similarly effective system and to provide UK law enforcement authorities with automatic access to such information within 24 hours of a request being made—or within one hour in urgent cases. These arrangements, which have been put in place since 2016, are already bringing benefits to UK law enforcement. They mark a significant increase in the ability of UK law enforcement authorities to investigate bribery and corruption, money laundering and tax evasion. I am sorry that I do not share the opinion of the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, that somehow these law authorities are very limited in scope. They make an incredible contribution.

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[Lord Collins of Highbury]

My Lords, I agree with all the sentiments that have been expressed. This is about a very strong commitment given by David Cameron, and what we want to hear from the Minister is a clear timetable. The noble Lords, Lord Faulks and Lord Hodgson, are absolutely right. In the previous debate we talked about transparency and those who pay. On this issue, it is not just those in the poorest countries who are paying because of this hidden money; it is our own communities. I have said before in this Chamber that to look down the river and see a skyscraper that is 60% foreign-owned, with 40% of that ownership hidden through companies, is clearly scandalous. We do not have to look far. So we need action and a very clear timetable. I hope the Minister will give us that timetable tonight.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, this amendment seeks to set down in legislation the commitment made at the 2016 anti-corruption summit to establish a public register of company beneficial ownership information for foreign companies that already own or buy property in the UK or that bid on UK central government contracts.

As we have readily acknowledged in various debates during the passage of this Bill and others, the UK is a world leader in promoting corporate transparency. As I said in the previous debate, we are the only country in the G20 to have established a fully publicly accessible company beneficial ownership register. I assure noble Lords that the Government are committed to leading the world in improving this transparency.

First—and here, I refer to my noble friends Lord Faulks and Lord Hodgson but also to noble Lords across the House—I know this issue has been debated and discussed through various vehicles. I congratulate them on ensuring that the Government remain accountable and the issue remains in the public eye. Let me assure my noble friends and all noble Lords that the Government appreciate the work that all have done in this respect, particularly my noble friend. I assure him that we share his desire, the desire expressed by all noble Lords, to reduce the opportunity for money laundering through UK property as swiftly and effectively as possible. We all acknowledge that it is a serious issue, so let me address that question head-on.

First, what has happened? Following last year’s call for evidence, the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy sent more than 100 pages of drafting instructions to the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel, and work preparing the clauses for the Bill is under way. The drafting instructions prepared so far cover just the application of the land registration elements of the policy in England and Wales. Once the clauses for England and Wales are complete, an exercise will be undertaken to make specific provision for how they will apply in Scotland and Northern Ireland, both of which have different land registration systems and their own Land Registries. The approaches taken to land registration and overseas entities by the Land Registries have differed until now, so all three approaches will need to be brought together to deliver a streamlined policy, consistent across the UK. I anticipate that exercise taking some months and it will involve expertise from many different teams across the UK Government and the devolved Administrations.

The department has also commissioned a piece of research on potential impacts of the policy, including on investment decisions. That research is ongoing and will feed directly into an impact assessment, work on which is also under way. I am sure my noble friend will agree that this is a crucial moment for the UK’s future trading relationship with the rest of the world, and we must proceed with as good an understanding as possible of the potential impacts on legitimate inward investment.

Having brought noble Lords up to date with the Government’s work so far, let me turn to our next steps. Since our last debate on the matter in Committee, the Government have considered carefully the proposals in front of us and had detailed discussion with my noble friend in this regard. Noble Lords were quite right to point out that the anti-corruption strategy published last month stated that we would publish a draft Bill during the current Session of Parliament. Doing so will help to ensure that any potential weaknesses in the policy are spotted and addressed in what will be new and complex legislation.

Let me now provide some of the certainty requested by my noble friends Lord Faulks and Lord Hodgson. I can confirm that we will publish the draft Bill by the Summer Recess this year. I can also confirm that formal introduction of the Bill will be a priority for the second Session of this Parliament. We anticipate that being in summer 2019, and doing so will put us on track to implement the register itself, which will be operational by early 2021. I further recognise noble Lords’ concern for greater certainty of the Government’s intention. We will shortly formally confirm our intention to meet these deadlines—a point mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Collins—through a Written Ministerial Statement. We will continue to look at both legislative and delivery timetables for opportunities to implement sooner if at all possible.

Let me say why publishing a Bill in draft is the right approach. As I have said before, the register will be first of its kind in the world and will affect people’s property rights. A robust enforcement mechanism will be essential. As set out in last year’s call for evidence, the Government believe that criminal sanctions may not be sufficient in isolation, but that additional enforcement through land registration law will also be needed if the register is to have teeth. A key proposal is that those who own property who do not comply with the register’s requirements will lose the ability to sell the property or create a long lease or legal charge over it. This will be reflected in a restriction on the register of title.

I am sure that my noble friend will recognise that these are significant steps and will constitute a robust enforcement mechanism. As such, the regime must be able to withstand legal challenge from those who have the means and motive to make such a challenge. That is a key reason why delivering the register through dedicated primary legislation, in accordance with the will of Parliament, is preferable to doing so through secondary regulations to the Bill we are debating today. It is also the key reason why this House should welcome the fullest possible scrutiny of the draft clauses and the mechanisms behind a regime which will be a world first.

But that is not the only reason. New functions must be delegated to Companies House and the land registries, and we must ensure they have the tools and time needed to deliver this successfully. A protection regime must be established, balancing legitimate concerns for personal safety with the need for transparency. All those issues were considered in last year’s call for evidence, but only once we can scrutinise the draft clauses can we really stress-test whether they are going to be effective. We anticipate there being in excess of 50 clauses in the Bill.

Let me say why early 2021 is the appropriate timescale. First, it is because a dedicated primary Bill is the right way of delivering such a policy, and that will take time, given other pressures on Parliament at present. The Government will therefore introduce legislation as soon as possible, but it is impossible for me to make commitments to do so in the very near term—and I have already indicated the specific timetable, which will also be qualified in the Written Ministerial Statement.

Secondly, it is appropriate because that must be followed by secondary regulations, in which we will set out the more technical details underpinning the regime, such as the essential changes needed to the land registration rules. New systems must also be built between Companies House and the three land registries. Their design will depend on the precise content of those regulations. While much preparatory work will be done while the legislation and secondary regulations are passed, there are some inevitable lead times, because the systems and processes can be finalised only after Parliament has approved the legislation.

Finally, an appropriate transition period will be needed to ensure that lenders and other stakeholders can adjust to the new requirements. We believe that the policy must be robust, but fair. Overseas entities that have bought property in the UK, in some cases many years ago, will not have had this in their contemplation at the time. In most cases, the property will have been bought for legitimate and innocent purposes and by those who expected the degree of privacy offered by ownership through a legal entity. We should give those entities, and their beneficial owners, time to understand the requirements and consider their options.

There is a parallel with the development of the register of people with significant control. That policy was announced in 2013, following several rounds of consultation and primary and secondary legislation, and a fully populated register was delivered by June 2017. It may have taken four years, but it still put the UK’s framework in a world-leading position. The new register will take a similar path, but there are numerous additional considerations.

I hope that the detail that I have outlined and the timetable that I have given provide the House and my noble friend in particular with the reassurance of the Government’s continued commitment to enact this policy. But to go slightly further, my intention is also to bring forward an amendment on Third Reading to require the Government to provide regular updates to Parliament on progress on the timetable that I have outlined.

I hope that my noble friend feels that we have had a productive engagement and that what I have offered today from the Dispatch Box are not just warm words but specifics. For those reasons, I hope that he is minded to withdraw his amendment.

Commonwealth Summit: Faith Leaders

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 15th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure my noble friend that we are working directly with the Secretary-General and the Commonwealth Secretariat on the very important point that she raises about faith communities. I believe that we all would acknowledge—indeed, celebrate—the fact that over the decades and centuries we have seen diaspora communities contribute incredibly to Britain. The faith communities are part and parcel of that. I look forward to working with them in the run-up to the Commonwealth summit, during the summit and, indeed, afterwards, when the UK has the chair for two years.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I very much welcome what the Government have been doing to ensure that civil society is fully engaged in the Commonwealth summit. Certainly, the fora are very important. The Minister’s predecessor, the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, undertook to meet the TUC to ensure that all aspects of civil society are fully engaged. Can he update the House on what further meetings have taken place to ensure that civil society in the broadest sense is represented in all the fora?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure the noble Lord that, as the Minister for the Commonwealth, I have been engaging in various round tables with civil society leaders across the piece in all elements of ensuring that civil society is fully engaged. Most recently, I met the organiser of the Commonwealth People’s Forum to ensure diversity of participation, both in terms of those participating but also in that the agenda reflects the important priorities of all people represented through civil society across the Commonwealth.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Report stage (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 15th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord and noble Lords for their contributions. I agree wholeheartedly with their comments in relation to the thrust of this legislation. We are here because of another decision. We are here because we are being forced to take action speedily because of the precipice that we will be facing.

I said at Second Reading and will say now that we support this Bill because we are required to have a proper and full sanctions regime. I completely share the concerns expressed by your Lordships’ Constitution Committee. But, as I said in Committee, your Lordships’ Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee examined these clauses in some detail and did not quite share the view of the Constitution Committee. It referred to its previous memorandum on the subject and said that the reason for this clause related to the enforcement of the prohibitions and requirements set out in the regulations. In Committee, the Minister said that the Government were replicating existing enforcement regimes. He said:

“To be clear: these types of offences already exist”.—[Official Report, 21/11/17; col. 165.]


In Committee, I said that if that was the case, and the Minister was hearing us in terms of the concerns over principles, I hoped that he would come up with something better to address the concerns of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I am afraid that, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, said, I do not think that the Minister has come up with adequate provisions to address these concerns. They are limited, as the noble and learned Lord said, to some of the all-embracing powers such as determining evidence and the process for evidence. I welcome those changes but I do not think that the Government have gone far enough in terms of being very clear how these wide-ranging powers will be dealt with. If the noble and learned Lord presses this issue, I hope that the House will support him.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble and learned Lord for tabling his amendment. Again, I also thank him for the extensive discussions we have had in this respect.

The amendments seek to remove the ability to make provision in sanctions regulations creating offences for breaches of sanctions. I say from the outset that I sympathise with the concerns that noble Lords have expressed during various parts of the debate, not just today but in previous stages. I am sure noble Lords will also acknowledge that we have done a lot of work to try to respond to these concerns. I have tabled some government amendments in this area, which the noble Lord, Lord Collins, acknowledged.

The powers in question enable offences to be created for breaches of sanctions, in line with our current practice when implementing EU legal acts. They also enable other enforcement tools to be used, such as deferred prosecution agreements or serious crime prevention orders. Having the power to punish individuals and entities for breaching sanctions deters non-compliance and ensures the measures are robust. Sanctions without teeth, as I am sure noble Lords acknowledge, are essentially meaningless. Indeed, we debated earlier an amendment that would have included preventing,

“the violation of sanctions regulations”,

as one of the explicit purposes to be set out in Clause 1. Although I argued against that amendment on technical grounds, I agree with the spirit.

EU sanctions against countries such as Russia and Syria are imposed through EU legal acts that require member states to put in place enforcement measures at a national level. In line with that requirement, the UK routinely creates criminal offences for breaches of sanctions by way of statutory instruments made under powers in the European Communities Act 1972, as well as other legislation such as the Export Control Act 2002 and the Policing and Crime Act 2017. Other EU member states implement similar enforcement measures through their national legislation.

As foreshadowed in the White Paper consultation before this Bill was introduced, the Government want to be in a position to maintain continuity in this area. Whatever one’s views on Brexit, I think there is wide support for the principle that the UK and EU should remain closely aligned on sanctions policy. If the UK’s future sanctions regime against Russia was stripped of any enforcement provisions, I am sure noble Lords would agree that this would send a very unfortunate signal to our EU partners and to other close allies. Amendments 45 and 47 would mean that breaching a sanctions regime would not be an offence. If they are passed, as existing criminal offences in EU retained law fall away when new UK regimes are introduced, we would be unable to replicate those offences in the new regimes.

We have covered some of these issues previously, and I hope that what I have said will persuade the noble and learned Lord to withdraw his amendment. As I have said, I understand the concerns that have been expressed, including today, about the scope of these powers and will set out in a moment the government amendments that I have tabled in response. But the abolition of offences from sanctions regulations clearly undermines the purpose of the Bill and would make the UK a weak link in broader international implementation of sanctions, which I am sure is not noble Lords’ intention. I know and totally accept that this House is concerned about the creation of criminal offences through secondary legislation, a point eloquently made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, and my noble friend Lord Deben. I can provide this House with the following reassurances.

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[Lord Collins of Highbury]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, said accurately that there was a balance to be struck here, and there is a debate to be had. I am not legally qualified and therefore wish to address the political and moral issues that have been raised. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said that this is an extremely rare situation and that we cannot pick and choose. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, said in Committee:

“I see the force of the Government’s argument that the UK has no alternative under international law but to give effect to our obligations under the UN charter; indeed, Article 103 of the charter expressly dictates that these obligations prevail over any conflicting international law obligations.”——[Official Report, 29/11/17: cols. 703-4.]


The Opposition are concerned about the signal we would send if we adopted the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. I hear his comments about the United Nations but this Parliament must uphold international law and the supremacy of the United Nations. It should not undermine that. If we adopt the amendment, we would send the signal to other countries, which may flagrantly flout decisions of the United Nations, that we insist that they should. We judge other countries by our own standards. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, is absolutely right that there should be provision for the British courts to consider a decision of the Secretary of State. However, ultimately they should support the Secretary of State and the United Nations, not say to the United Nations, “We are not going to accept that decision”. We cannot pick and choose; that is the fundamental point. Therefore, while I totally understand the power of the arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and have a lot of sympathy with them, there is one point that trumps all else—I use that word advisedly—namely, we must uphold the decisions of the United Nations.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, as Minister for the United Nations, among other things, I echo the sentiments of the noble Lord, Lord Collins, about our commitment to the United Nations. As a permanent member of the UN Security Council, the UK is at the heart of shaping the UN’s response to crises around the world, as we have seen. I know that all noble Lords respect that. The United Kingdom takes this role very seriously, including in our approach to sanctions in the UN Security Council. We are one of the leading voices for UN sanctions where there are good reasons for them, as recently to constrain North Korea’s nuclear programme. At the same time, we place great importance on the need for sanctions to be used responsibly, with proper respect for due process and the rule of law. It is important to remember that as a permanent member of that Security Council, the UK exercises real authority over which sanctions are and are not adopted by the UN.

I thank all noble Lords for their comments, to which I listened carefully. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, made important points. We have exercised authority by committing that we would never support in the UN Security Council a designation that we considered unlawful. Put another way, we would not support a designation unless we had reasonable grounds to suspect that the person met the relevant criteria. Not only is this the right thing to do, it also reduces the risk of the UK being obliged to implement a UN designation that might be vulnerable to challenge in court.

The Bill recognises that persons designated by the United Nations must have a right of redress, including the ability to bring a legal challenge against the Government in the UK courts. The Bill accordingly contains the ability for such a person to have access to the court, and to obtain a remedy for any unlawfulness that the court uncovers. If the court were to consider the UN designation unlawful, the court could instruct the Minister to use best endeavours to secure a delisting at the United Nations. This is a significant remedy not to be underestimated. As a permanent member of the UN Security Council, the UK is particularly well placed to make representations that a designated person should be delisted.

The Government recognise there may be rare cases in which the Minister’s best endeavours are not sufficient to secure a delisting at the UN, as we discussed with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, between Committee and Report. The question then is whether the UK courts should have the power to quash a UN designation and thus leave the Government in breach of their obligations under the UN charter. Our view is that this cannot be right.

First, the Bill recognises that the UK is under a duty in international law to designate those persons designated by the UN, and this proposition has not been criticised. Secondly, failure to implement a UN designation would damage the UK’s reputation as a country that stands by its commitments under international law—a point well made by the noble Lord, Lord Collins. Thirdly, it would restrict the ability of the UK to call out other states where they were falling short of their obligations under international law. If it was open to the UK not to implement our legal obligations, irrespective of whether it were following a court decision, it would be impossible to criticise other states where they were not implementing their obligations.

I take the point the noble Lord made that the EU court has very rarely quashed EU legal acts which implement a UN designation on procedural grounds. However, it has never done so where that would leave the EU member state itself in breach of its UN obligations. We should bear in mind that the EU itself is not bound by the charter, but EU states are. The noble Lord mentioned the case of Kadi, which has frequently been cited. In that case the UN had, in fact, delisted the person concerned by the time of the judgment, so EU member states themselves were spared the choice between respecting a decision of the EU courts and abiding by their UN obligations. Had they been forced to choose, I am confident that they would have prioritised their UN obligations as required—as a number of noble Lords mentioned—by Article 103 of the UN charter, which makes it clear that where there is a conflict between obligations under the UN charter and obligations under any other international agreement, the obligations in the UN charter shall prevail. The United Kingdom and all other EU member states are bound by that charter, even if the EU itself is not. That too is part of the rule of law—upholding those international laws where they bind the United Kingdom.

The United Nations has many flaws, but it is crucial to maintaining international peace and security. To allow the UK courts to stop the Government implementing sanctions agreed by the UN Security Council is not the right approach for a country such as ours that seeks to lead by example at the United Nations. I sincerely believe that any Minister, regardless of political persuasion, would share this view. I also believe we are in agreement that by continuing to make the UK’s support for UN designations conditional on fair procedural standards, we can and should do all we can to prevent this problem arising. However, in the unfortunate event that such a case arises, I remain of the view that a “best endeavours” obligation is the right way to square this difficult circle.

I deeply respect the noble Lord’s position. Again, we have had constructive discussions on this, although on this occasion we did not reach agreement. However, I hope that with the reassurances I have given, the noble Lord will be minded to withdraw his amendment.

Georgia

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 10th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble and right reverend Lord is of course right to point out the recent attempts by Russia to further strengthen its intervention in the breakaway regions. I assure all noble Lords that the Government continue to use all their international influence. Most notably, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister met with the Georgian Prime Minister in the margins of a recent meeting in Brussels, where the integrity of Georgia, concerning specifically the two regions the noble and right reverend Lord mentioned, were discussed and prioritised. We continue to support that. We of course continue to support the efforts currently under way in Geneva in this respect.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, obviously next week the NATO military committee will meet to discuss defence resilience in Georgia. Also, just before Christmas the EU high representative made a statement on the situation, particularly on the peacebuilding efforts of the EU. Will the Minister tell us how much the Government are involved in those peacebuilding efforts to ensure we have a solution that does not involve more war?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord may well be aware—I have already alluded to it—of a recent bilateral meeting between our Prime Minister and the Georgian Prime Minister. We continue to support Georgian efforts within Georgia itself on the specific issues he raised on enhancing and securing the democracy that is currently in play. We want to further ensure its sustainability. Indeed, we are providing additional funding in the region of £5.5 million to support it. We stand behind Georgian integrity. We make that point to the Georgians bilaterally and we have made it clear in our interactions with the Russians. We continue to do it through all international engagement, including in the EU.

Syria

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 20th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, on the second question raised by the noble Baroness, the Government’s position has been clear: we will aid the reconstruction of Syria once a peace process has been resolved and the prevailing conditions are such that there is stability in Syria. On the noble Baroness’s first question, she referred to the “Panorama” report and the £200 million. That relates to the CSSF, which the Foreign Office administers. As she will know, there are various parts of that funding; the component part that was reported on in the “Panorama” programme related to funding of the police force. The source of that funding, including who we fund through, has been put on hold pending full investigation. I am sure, however, that she would also acknowledge that £45 million of that particular funding pot supports the initiatives—and indeed the incredible courage—of organisations such as the White Helmets.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, sadly, it looks like the Geneva talks will collapse, mainly because Assad’s brutal regime refuses to talk to anyone who opposes his view. I appreciate the Government’s commitment to the process but, in the light of this, what is their plan B if Assad refuses to participate at all in the Geneva talks?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord raises an important point about the current regime. As he, and indeed many noble Lords, will know, while the regime is being represented at the Geneva talks, which the Government and other international partners support, it is not engaging directly in the substantive discussions with the Syrian opposition that are taking place in Geneva. We remain absolutely focused on making those talks work. In our bilateral discussions with other key players, such as Iran and Russia, who have greater influence over the Syrian regime, we are imploring them to ensure that the Geneva talks get the kick-start that they desperately require.

Commonwealth Summit 2018

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 13th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I agree with my noble friend’s sentiments. On soft power, I am sure he saw a survey last week showing that Britain retains its top position on the global stage in soft power. On the Commonwealth specifically, I am talking to the Secretary-General, the Commonwealth Secretariat and other member states to pick up some of the very points that my noble friend raised. We will see how we can engage more effectively with countries which are indicating their desire to join the Commonwealth family at some future time.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned the civil society fora. I welcome the Government’s initiative on this and their thematic approach. One thing that concerns me is ensuring that we get full attendance of civil society players. Many of them, particularly LGBT communities, live and work in very hostile environments. What steps are the Government taking to ensure that the civil society fora are attended by everybody possible and that hostile Governments do not put a stop on them attending?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord raises an important issue. He will know that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and I have had conversations about the importance of ensuring the representation of civil society groups, including those from across the Commonwealth which very vocally, and often with great courage in dire domestic circumstances, represent important issues of LGBT rights. We are clear, and I am sure the sentiment is shared by all noble Lords, that LGBT rights are human rights and that those voices need to be heard. We are working with the Commonwealth Secretariat to ensure that right is preserved and discussed at the Commonwealth summit.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 12th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and other noble Lords who spoke in this brief debate. In addition—to depart from my notes—for the first time I welcome the new Deputy Chairman of Committees to his position. It is certainly the first time for me stand at the Dispatch Box with him in his place.

From the outset I agree—I made this point clear in various debates at both Second Reading and in Committee—on the need for proper parliamentary oversight of sanctions regimes and I recognise the importance that noble Lords attach to this. That has been made very clear to me during Committee. Amendments 73 and 74 would require the draft affirmative procedure to be used for any non-UN sanctions regimes. As noble Lords know, the UK, through the European Union, imposes a number of sanctions regimes and measures that do not derive from the United Nations. These include, for example, sanctions against Russia over its illegal annexation of Crimea, and sanctions against the Assad regime in Syria.

In the future, it is likely—indeed, highly probable—that the UK would want to join its allies in imposing sanctions in circumstances where UN agreement is not possible. The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, talked about Ministers deciding. No, it would be Parliament deciding, requiring that these sanctions regimes come into effect only after the approval of both Houses of Parliament. In that way it would significantly undermine their effectiveness and make it harder for the UK to impose sanctions at the same time as international partners. Future targets of sanctions would be given forewarning of their designation, which would enable them to move their assets out of the UK and take other steps to nullify the effect of sanctions. This would undermine the credibility of sanctions as a foreign policy tool.

The Bill provides instead that the made-affirmative procedure, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, acknowledged, should be used for non-UN sanctions to ensure that measures have immediate effect, while still requiring the approval of both Houses within 28 days. This strikes the right balance between enabling the Government to act decisively and ensuring accountability to Parliament.

Amendment 75 would require the draft affirmative procedure for any regulations that suspend, revoke or amend existing sanctions. As the Bill stands, regulations that suspend sanctions are subject to the negative procedure. This is to ensure that they can be used flexibly to recognise an improvement in behaviour while maintaining a credible threat that sanctions would immediately be re-imposed in the event of backsliding. This approach has been used to good effect as part of international diplomacy—for example, in the context of the Iran nuclear deal. If the Government were unable to suspend sanctions without waiting for the express approval of Parliament, it would reduce our ability to swiftly deploy these options in support of foreign policy goals.

In addition, as suspension of sanctions has the effect of reducing restrictions on individuals, we do not consider that it requires the higher level of scrutiny required to introduce such restrictions by imposing non-UN sanctions.

As regards regulations to revoke or amend sanctions, the Bill provides that this may be done using the same procedure as was used to create the regulations in the first place. Regimes containing UN-mandated sanctions would be revoked or amended by the negative procedure, and UK-autonomous sanctions by the made-affirmative procedure. I do not see a reason why the revocation or amendment of sanctions regimes should require greater scrutiny than their creation.

Amendment 75A intends to require the draft affirmative procedure for all sanctions regulations that contain enforcement provisions as set out in Clause 16. I acknowledge that we debated Clause 16 on the first day in Committee. I listened carefully to the concerns expressed about the creation of criminal offences through secondary legislation. We are looking at and reflecting on these concerns.

Let me may say a word or two about the process we currently follow as an EU member state and what we envisage following the enactment of the Bill. For each of the current UN and EU sanctions regimes we currently implement through EU law, the UK has created the relevant criminal penalties through statutory instruments made under the negative procedure. Similarly, we expect that all the sanctions regulations created under this Bill will include enforcement provisions of some kind. We envisage one regulation for each country, setting out the purpose of the sanctions, the specific measures being imposed, and the corresponding prohibitions and offences.

This approach allows a degree of nuance when determining penalties. For example, a breach of sanctions that results in nuclear material being made available to North Korea is obviously very serious, whereas failing to supply information to the relevant authority might attract a less severe penalty. Each regime is different, meaning different offences and penalties might be appropriate. This principle was accepted by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee.

Given that all sanctions regulations will include enforcement provisions, this amendment would require the use of the draft affirmative procedure in all cases, both UN and non-UN. For the reasons I have set out, we believe the correct approach is negative procedures for regulations containing UN sanctions and made-affirmative for UK-autonomous sanctions.

The use of the draft affirmative procedure for UN sanctions regulations would mean that we would routinely breach our obligation to implement the relevant asset freezes “without delay”. Noble Lords may be aware that Part 8 of the Policing and Crime Act 2017—approved by this House—contains specific powers designed to bridge the sometimes lengthy gap between the adoption of measures by the UN Security Council and the entry into force of the corresponding EU legal Acts. The amendment would undo our recent efforts to accelerate our domestic implementation of UN sanctions. Given my explanation to the Committee, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Collins, is minded to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I thank the Minister for his response. The words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, come to mind: he said that we are not simply bringing EU law into domestic law and preserving it, but extending it—a lot. That is the key issue of concern to noble Lords in this House. I hear what the Minister is saying but we will keep coming back to this issue in other groupings. On Report, we will certainly make the voices of all noble Lords heard on this subject. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, for again raising the issue of parliamentary oversight, and to all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I start with a confession: unlike the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, I did not go to bed last night thinking about the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill. I had a three year-old to contend with at that time, so I did not share that experience, nor did I dream about the Bill. Nevertheless, let me say at the outset that I accept the importance of scrutiny, as I have said, and before I come to the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Collins, I shall address the point just made by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, who spoke about his ministerial responsibilities when he was Minister for the Crown dependencies. His advice is something that I have continued to say to our overseas territories. I was his Whip at that time and I recall those conversations well. Equally, although the noble Lord, Lord Hain, is not in his place, in addressing these amendments I totally acknowledge the important points made in Committee about anti-money laundering and raised again in relation to the previous groups.

I shall address Amendments 75B, 76A and 76B together, as they have a single effect of changing the procedure for regulations made under Clause 41 of the Bill, which concerns anti-money laundering, to the so-called super-affirmative procedure. As we have discussed previously, the Government are committed to ensuring robust scrutiny of regulations made under the Bill. Any regulations made under this clause already have to be made under the draft affirmative procedure and require Parliament’s consent before they take effect. The sole exception to this is when regulations are made to add or remove countries from a list of high-risk jurisdictions in connection to which enhanced due diligence measures must be undertaken. Both the Financial Action Task Force and the European Union currently publish such lists. After the United Kingdom ceases to be a member of the EU, we will seek to align our list of high-risk jurisdictions with that published by the FATF. Part 3 of the Bill provides that regulations updating this list will be made through the made affirmative procedure. This will ensure effective parliamentary scrutiny of such changes, while ensuring that we can align promptly with international standards around which jurisdictions present high risks of money laundering or terrorist financing.

However, this amendment would go further. It seeks to impose the so-called super-affirmative procedure. This would require the Government to publish a draft statutory instrument, with a detailed explanation of its contents, and have due regard to any representations made within a 40-day or 60-day period, including any resolutions of Parliament, before seeking the consent of Parliament to the original or an amended version. I totally appreciate the need for parliamentary oversight, but I believe that this amendment is unnecessary. I assure noble Lords that the Government take parliamentary scrutiny seriously, reflected in the fact that regulations under this clause are already under the draft affirmative procedure.

The Bill will already increase levels of parliamentary scrutiny above and beyond the status quo. We—and other Governments, regardless of party—typically make anti-money laundering regulations through the negative procedure. The Labour Government did this when transposing the third EU money laundering directive through the Money Laundering Regulations 2007. A similar approach was taken earlier this year when we transposed the fourth EU money laundering directive through the money laundering regulations 2017. As noble Lords will be aware, the implementation of the 2017 regulations followed a 12-week policy consultation, followed by a four-week consultation on the draft regulations. Consultations of this type are usual practice for significant changes to regulatory regimes, such as those relating to anti-money laundering.

The Government always pay close attention to the views of parliamentarians, and of noble Lords in particular, on anti-money laundering. In last week’s debate on the Bill we talked about the anti-corruption strategy, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, acknowledged, we published yesterday. In it we reaffirmed our commitment to establishing a public register of the beneficial ownership of overseas companies which own UK property. The Government will publish a draft Bill to this effect in this parliamentary Session, allowing an opportunity for pre-legislative scrutiny. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked about the strategy. I assure him that the Home Secretary, as a senior member of the Cabinet, will personally chair a new economic crime strategic board to drive forward action in this regard.

When changing the UK’s anti-money laundering framework after leaving the EU, the laying of regulations through the draft affirmative procedure will allow Parliament and the relevant committees sufficient time to look at the draft before it is debated or comes into effect. I also remind noble Lords that the regulations will be subject to an affirmative resolution in both Houses before they come into force. These measures, along with changes to the Government’s processes for bringing forward secondary legislation, will go further to addressing the issues that the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, raised earlier this year in relation to the process by which the money laundering regulations 2017 were brought into force.

On the point of broader consultation, I reassure noble Lords that the Government regularly speak to interested stakeholders when considering changes to policy or process. I am confident that this will remain the standard practice in matters of this kind, where the Government are dependent on banks, businesses and other stakeholders to ensure effective compliance. With that explanation, I hope the noble Lord is minded to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his comments, but I think all noble Lords will be concerned. We are moving from one type of regime to another. The fact of the matter is that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, has said on numerous occasions, EU directives go through a very detailed process of democratic scrutiny—at European level and, of course, at domestic level. We know in advance what those directives contain and we debate them fully, and we have the opportunity, through our representation in Europe, to challenge elements of them. All that is going to disappear when we leave the EU. We want to know that we are not giving up that democratic accountability to simply place everything in the hands of the Executive. I am rather disappointed, to put it mildly, with the Minister’s response. I assure him that we will be tabling amendments on Report, particularly with regard to Clause 41, which will ensure that there is proper accountability and scrutiny.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure the noble Lord that I am listening very carefully. I did the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, an injustice when flicking through my notes. As noble Lords can probably hear, my voice is deeper. That is the result of telling your children to wrap up warmly on Wimbledon Common but not following that advice yourself. Nevertheless, I listened to the points made by the noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, very carefully. I will consider carefully the points the noble Baroness has raised in Committee, particularly on having a framework, and I recognise the importance of the points raised by the noble Lord—I hear his strength of feeling. I will respond to these issues, as I have said. Some of these concerns have been raised in the Delegated Powers Committee’s report, which we will respond to shortly as well.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I thank the Minister for those additional comments but they still do not change my concerns. I would welcome whatever further consideration he gives them and ask that we have what he has to say in plenty of time before Report. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this important debate. As we have heard, the UK is responsible for the foreign affairs and security of both the Crown dependencies and overseas territories. That is the constitutional position. Our long-standing practice is that we do not generally legislate for these jurisdictions without their consent. This point was well made, in the context of the Crown dependencies, by the noble Lord, Lord Beith. Sanctions are tools of foreign policy, or are used to protect our national security. It is clear that the overseas territories and Crown dependencies must follow the UK Government’s foreign policy, including the sanctions we apply. I assure noble Lords that the Foreign Office has discussed this with the overseas territories and Crown dependencies and they also accept this central point of principle.

There are currently two ways in which sanctions are implemented by the overseas territories and Crown dependencies. The UK legislates directly for the majority of these jurisdictions through Orders in Council. Other jurisdictions legislate for themselves, but follow precisely the sanctions implemented in the UK. This model is well established and respects the rights of these jurisdictions.

The Bill is drafted in a way that reflects this reality. It is consistent with the current implementation model for UN and EU sanctions as well as measures under the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010. It allows those jurisdictions that wish to follow UK sanctions through their own legislation to continue to do so. It also allows the UK to legislate directly for certain overseas territories as appropriate.

With regard to anti-money laundering laws, all the Crown dependencies, and each of the overseas territories with a significant financial centre, subscribe to the international standards for anti-money laundering and counterterrorist financing set by the Financial Action Task Force. They are assessed in their own right for compliance with these standards and have responsibility for implementing them within their own domestic frameworks.

The Government, of course, retain an interest in ensuring that the Crown dependencies and overseas territories have robust anti-money laundering regimes. As noble Lords are aware, and as I stated in a previous debate—this point was raised with the overseas territories at the recent joint ministerial council—we are already working very closely with those jurisdictions which do not already have national company beneficial ownership registers on establishing such registers or similarly effective mechanisms, and ensuring that information held on these can be shared in near real time with UK law enforcement authorities.

I remind noble Lords that we legislated earlier this year, through the Criminal Finances Act, to establish a statutory review of how these arrangements have been implemented. This will take place before 1 July 2019 and will inform any further debate about the effectiveness of measures relating to beneficial ownership in place in individual Crown dependencies or overseas territories. We should also recall that full implementation of these arrangements will put these jurisdictions ahead of the international standards in this area, and ahead of the approach taken by many G20 countries and individual states of the United States.

This demonstrates the benefits of the co-operative relationship that we have established with the Crown dependencies and overseas territories in combating money laundering and terrorist financing. These jurisdictions are self-governing and take their compliance with the FATF standards very seriously. The anti-money laundering regimes of each of the Crown dependencies have been evaluated since 2015, with overseas territories, including the Cayman Islands and the British Virgin Islands, both scheduled to be evaluated in the coming year. The commitment of these jurisdictions to international standards in this area is the best way to ensure that they continue to have robust anti-money laundering and counterterrorist financing regimes. As I said in the previous debate in Committee, this is a point we have once again emphasised in all our communications, and it was emphasised by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in her recent meeting with the overseas territories. These are long-standing arrangements.

The noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, talked about progress and moving forward. We are moving forward positively and I have already talked about the results. In this regard, I do not believe that these amendments are needed. I am sure noble Lords would not wish to jeopardise the achievements that we have seen thus far, which have come from direct co-operation and working with these jurisdictions, and the progress that has already been made. With that, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I thank the Minister for his response. However, I am a little disappointed. We should not apologise for taking the lead in trying to build confidence globally in financial standards. We should not be in any way apologetic about leading the way because London is a global financial centre—

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I do not think I apologised in any sense, and nor should we—I agree with the noble Lord. We are leading the way and we are proud of that. We have to put this into context. The noble Lord, Lord Beith, talked about the important relationship with Crown dependencies. I have talked about the relationship with our overseas territories. They legislate in many areas. The relationship does not just work; the strength of relationship allows us to make the progress we are making. Britain is leading the way and our overseas territories and Crown dependencies have shown substantial progress in this respect. Perhaps other G20 countries have a lot of catching up to do. We are leading in this respect.

Foreign and Commonwealth Office: Ministerial Guidance

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 11th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I think Britain is recognised as a country that provides balance and leadership through various international fora. Let us not forget that we are a P5 member on the UN Security Council. My noble friend will be aware that the Commonwealth summit and Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting is around the corner in April. Again, the United Kingdom is honoured to be hosting it and working with the Commonwealth Secretariat to set the agenda for what will be a positive example of global Britain in action.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, an issue of concern—to me and I think many noble Lords—has been the capacity of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to deliver on behalf of this United Kingdom with the necessary tools to do the job; the noble Viscount referred to that. It is an important issue that the Minister needs to address. Only last week, when we were discussing President Trump’s decision on Jerusalem, the Foreign Secretary made a speech in which our concern was to be included but that section was omitted. That is not a matter of capacity; it is clearly a matter of design. Will the Minister explain why such an important position of the United Kingdom was ignored by the Foreign Secretary?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I draw attention not to myself but, in looking to my right and around this Chamber, I am sure that all noble Lords would acknowledge the tremendous service to this Government that my predecessors have given as Ministers of State in the Foreign Office. My noble friends Lord Howell, Lady Warsi and Lady Anelay are examples of how the voice of the Foreign Office is heard not just in this House but across—oh! The noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, is perhaps casting aspersions on my performance; that remains to be seen.

The noble Lord raises an important point about international issues. I draw his attention and that of my noble friend to the statement given by Ambassador Rycroft at the United Nations, where we stood side by side with other European nations to make clear our position on the issue of east Jerusalem. I understand that that question was raised here. We remain consistent with all Governments in saying that we need a two-state solution where the capital of Jerusalem is shared by both states. That point has been made consistently by all Governments of all sides. We should focus on challenges facing the Foreign Office such as retaining the nuclear deal with Iran. The Foreign Secretary has led the way in ensuring that balance, communication and contact is retained on an international front on that very important issue.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 6th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

The Opposition’s view, in terms of global economic theft, for want of a better word—the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, raised this point—is that we are not talking about domestic industries or domestic activities. We are talking about transactions that are going global in terms of what I would call international crime. Not only the Panama papers but also the Paradise papers are showing that these activities are causing far more damage.

I believe that the overseas territories have an obligation to comply with international agreements, certainly regarding our UN obligations on sanctions. If we sanction a country for corrupt activities, the overseas territories have to comply. If it is good enough for sanctions, it is important that we consider it important enough for some of the crimes we have heard described this afternoon.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. In particular I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, for tabling this amendment. It would require the Secretary of State to provide all reasonable assistance to the Governments of certain of the British Overseas Territories with significant financial centres to enable each of those named overseas territories to establish a public register of company beneficial ownership. It further provides that if, by 1 January 2019, such overseas territories have not established such a register, the Secretary of State should take all reasonable steps to ensure that the Privy Council legislates to require each relevant overseas territory to do so. With your Lordships’ indulgence, I shall refer to the overseas territories as the OTs to save a degree of time.

I also appreciate that, as the noble Baroness articulated in moving the amendment, it was a probing amendment. That allows me to outline what steps have been taken. The OTs, as you know, are separate jurisdictions with their own democratically elected governments. They are not represented in this Parliament and so it has only been in exceptional circumstances that we have legislated for the OTs without their consent.

Financial services are the domestic responsibility of territory Governments. This creates an entirely different relationship from examples where we have had to legislate. For example, we have acted over international human rights obligations and, indeed, on decriminalising homosexuality. On the governance structures in which these territories work, as the noble Earl and my noble friend Lord Naseby have indicated, and as the territories and the House will recognise, legislating for the OTs without their consent would effectively disfranchise their own elected representatives. It would create considerable ill-feeling, which the Government do not wish to do.

Legislating to require certain OTs to establish public registers of company beneficial ownership when they do not wish to do so of their own volition would also mean that the territories would be less keen to maintain their current level of co-operation. This would jeopardise the progress—which I shall come to in a moment—that has already been made in this area and the spirit of working in partnership that we have fostered with them. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, said that I was running off to the joint ministerial council—I think I ran from it. We covered this subject; indeed, it was also covered by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in her meeting with the overseas territories. Jeopardising progress in this respect is not something any of us want to do. Given the necessary lead-in period for establishing any new register of beneficial ownership, this would set back UK law enforcement’s ability to access information relating to the beneficial ownership of companies in the OTs.

Let me assure noble Lords that this does not mean we are content for no action to be taken in this space. It simply means that we wish to take action within the existing framework of friendly co-operation, building on the progress already made. The noble Baroness, Lady Stern, made the point that I am the Minister for Overseas Territories. I have been dealing quite extensively with them, as noble Lords will understand, particularly certain territories, because of the tragic hurricanes that struck. We raised these issues directly, and we have seen good progress.

As noble Lords will know, the UK is a global leader in the cause of corporate transparency. We are the only country among the G20 to have a fully established public register of company beneficial ownership, and we continue to push for this to become a global standard. The international standards set by the Financial Action Task Force do not require it, however, reflecting the lack of international consensus in this area. These standards require only that:

“Countries should ensure that there is adequate, accurate and timely information on the beneficial ownership and control of legal persons that can be obtained or accessed in a timely fashion by competent authorities”.


Nevertheless, should public registers become the global standard, we would expect the OTs to meet it. The UK is far ahead of other countries in this area. The current EU framework does not require all member states to establish public registers of company beneficial ownership, so many have chosen not to do so. There is already progress in this area and we need to build on it within the existing framework of friendly co-operation, to which I have alluded. Under the arrangements that we concluded with the OTs in 2016, overseas territories with significant financial centres committed to hold beneficial ownership information in central registers or similarly effective systems, and to provide UK law enforcement authorities with automatic access to such information within 24 hours of a request being made, or within one hour in urgent cases.

These arrangements—also known as the “exchange of notes”—came into effect on 30 June this year and are in the process of being fully implemented by the OTs. An important point is that effective implementation of these arrangements will put the OTs ahead of many G20 members and many individual states of the United States—a point made well by my noble friend Lord Naseby.

I am pleased to report that Bermuda, the British Virgin Islands, the Cayman Islands and Gibraltar have central registers of beneficial ownership information or similarly effective systems in place, and they are taking forward population of their systems with beneficial ownership data.

We are also providing support to the Government of Anguilla to establish an electronic search platform providing access to beneficial ownership information, as well as support in drafting underpinning legislation. We are now working with Anguilla to finalise a memorandum of understanding on the terms for provision of our support, and we expect its beneficial ownership system to be established in the spring of 2018, notwithstanding the current rebuilding challenges it is facing following the hurricane. Work on establishing a central register in the Turks and Caicos Islands has been delayed owing to the impact of Hurricane Irma, but we expect this to be in place soon.

We did not seek a bilateral arrangement with Montserrat, as we had with the other OTs with financial centres, because Montserrat had already committed in November 2015 to include beneficial ownership information in its existing public companies register. A Bill requiring the inclusion of beneficial ownership information in the existing register will be introduced to Montserrat’s Legislative Assembly this month. The target date for the addition of that information to the register is 1 April 2018.

Having heard that detail, I hope your Lordships will agree that it demonstrates what can be achieved by working consensually with the OTs. It is right, therefore, that we focus on the implementation of the existing arrangements and that future work in this area be carried out within the existing framework of friendly co-operation, rather than generating ill will by imposing upon the OTs without their consent.

We are committed to following up on these arrangements to ensure that they deliver in practice, are implemented effectively and meet our law enforcement objectives. There is explicit provision in the exchange of notes for the operation of the arrangements to be reviewed six months after they came into force—that is, at the end of this year—and subsequently on an annual basis. These formal review processes are in addition to ongoing monitoring of the practical application of the exchange of notes by the UK and each relevant OT.

In addition, noble Lords will recall that Section 9 of the Criminal Finances Act 2017 amended Part 11 of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 to establish a statutory review process for the implementation of the exchange of notes. This report must be prepared before 1 July 2019 and relate to the implementation of the exchange of notes from 1 July 2017 to the end of December 2018. Once prepared, it will be published and laid before Parliament. The Government are clear that OTs with significant financial centres must fully implement the exchange of notes to which they have each agreed. The noble Baroness, among others, asked whether this matter had been raised. I have already said that it was raised at the JMC, and the Prime Minister reiterated this at her meeting with the leaders of the OTs last week. These arrangements have been made and must be honoured.

A key feature of the Government’s approach has been to maintain a level playing field between the OTs with financial centres and the Crown dependencies. As I am sure noble Lords reflecting on my contribution will see, we have robust review processes for the implementation of these arrangements, both on an ongoing basis with the Crown dependencies and the OTs and through the Criminal Finances Act. If these review processes demonstrated that full implementation of the exchange of notes was not taking place in any individual jurisdiction, it would be right for us to consider the issue further.

My noble friend Lord Patten, who I see in his place, raised the EU blacklist. Perhaps I may, first, give some factual information. I will check Hansard but I believe that he mentioned that Bermuda was on the blacklist. Bermuda is not on it; nor are the Cayman Islands or the Crown dependencies. Bermuda, the Cayman Islands and the Crown dependencies are on a separate list—I am quoting here—of co-operative jurisdictions which have been assessed by the EU as being unsuitable for the blacklist. They have also further committed to address any remaining concerns by the end of 2018. I can be quite specific in saying that this is not a grey list; on the contrary, it is a demonstration of the progress and positive commitments that have been made and are being achieved.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 29th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for tabling this amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Northover, talked about the Joint Ministerial Council; as a Minister for the Overseas Territories, today has been one of those days when I find myself shuttling between the Joint Ministerial Council and your Lordships’ House. I can confirm to the noble Baroness that this issue—and other elements that relate to the departure of the UK from the European Union—is very much on the agenda of our discussions with the overseas territories. Indeed, as we speak, my honourable friend Minister Walker is hosting a session with them on the implications of the United Kingdom leaving the European Union. The noble Baroness raised issues on guidance and I will certainly take back the issue of where we can clarify certain elements.

I will pick up on a couple of points so I can clear them at the start. In his intervention, my noble friend Lord Faulks—

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

As a matter of information, it is our amendment.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am fully cognisant of that. I meant no discourtesy to noble Lords on the Opposition Front Bench; I thought it appropriate to give the context of what I was going to say. The clarification that my noble friend provided from the outset is exactly why the particular clauses have been framed as such.

I will now take up what the noble Lord, Lord Collins, has just pointed out. The amendment is in the names of the noble Lords on the Opposition Front Bench. I thank them, as I did at the start. I believe that I came to the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, first—we will have to check Hansard on that—to thank him for tabling the amendment.

Clause 17 sets out which persons can be bound by sanctions regulations, in the UK and elsewhere. It also confirms that prohibitions or requirements can be imposed on any conduct in the UK, including UK territorial waters, or on any UK person anywhere in the world. This clause is consistent with the way the UK currently implements sanctions as part of the European Union. If noble Lords are interested, further detail is provided in the White Paper we published in April.

Clause 17 also allows for Her Majesty, by an Order in Council, to extend the effect of sanctions to bodies incorporated or constituted under the law of any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and any of the British Overseas Territories. This amendment would remove the ability of Her Majesty to make an Order in Council in respect of corporate bodies registered in the overseas territories and Crown dependencies. Instead, it would require that, when UK Ministers legislate to create sanctions in regulations, these bodies would automatically be caught.

When introducing this particular amendment, the noble Lord referred to the overseas territories in a very generic way. I have had the good fortune of visiting one or two of them—somewhat tragically in the aftermath of the hurricanes that hit—and generalising all our overseas territories in a particular way is not something I would subscribe to. They provide some incredible potential. For example, I am not sure how many Ministers partake of lobster, but apparently Tristan da Cunha has the best lobster in the world. On a more practical note, we have done some incredible work with them on marine protection and building sustainable economies.

I make that point because it is important to recognise the role that our overseas territories play. However, I agree with the point the noble Lord raised that the overseas territories and Crown dependencies must follow the UK Government’s foreign policy, including the sanctions we apply, and that bodies incorporated or constituted in these jurisdictions must also be bound by sanctions. The Foreign Office—to confirm what I said at the start to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover—has discussed the Bill with the overseas territories and Crown dependencies, and they also accept this point of principle.

However, there are constitutional considerations that affect the way sanctions are implemented by the overseas territories and Crown dependencies. As my noble friend Lord Faulks pointed out, at the moment all Crown dependencies—Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man—legislate on their own behalf, as do Gibraltar and Bermuda. We anticipate that these jurisdictions will seek to continue to do so—save, possibly, for a transitional period. We legislate for some of these jurisdictions directly through Orders in Council. However, as I have said, other jurisdictions legislate for themselves.

The Bill is drafted in a way that reflects this reality. It is consistent with the current implementation model for UN and EU sanctions, as well as measures under the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010. To change this model would depart from current practice and we do not see a compelling case for this. With that explanation—and the assurance I have given to the noble Baroness on the valid point she raised about the Law Society, which I will certainly look at again—I hope that the noble Lord will be minded to withdraw this amendment.

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[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, they say that generosity defines the spirit of a person, so perhaps I can be slightly more generous than noble Lords may perceive. The noble Lord, Lord Collins, is quite correct: we have talked about this issue, and sanctions, we all accept, can be an effective tool of foreign policy and national security, but I also accept that they can have serious implications, not only for those directly designated but also for businesses and charities operating in particular areas.

Foreign policy priorities can change frequently. It is therefore important that Ministers regularly revisit the decision to apply sanctions regimes to political problems and security challenges, and also consider carefully whether the sanctions are having the intended purpose, whether there are unintended consequences and what adjustments might be needed to achieve the desired effect.

Clause 26 therefore requires the Government to carry out a political review of its sanctions every year. The EU also carries out annual reviews of its sanctions regimes. The purpose here is to consider whether the sanctions should continue unchanged or be amended. If there is a published outcome, it is simply confirmation that the legal Acts have been renewed or amended. We have in mind a similar model for the UK; the annual review would be mainly an internal policy exercise, rather than a report for external publication. If the Government decided as a result to amend the sanctions regulations, this would involve a process of parliamentary scrutiny through which we would set out the rationale. Of course, the Government would always respond to Parliamentary Questions about specific areas of policy through the usual channels.

That said, I have listened very carefully to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and we are looking at the amendment specifically. I will reflect on the proposal in that regard. He made the helpful suggestion that, between Committee and Report, we meet again to work out some of the perhaps necessary parameters. I know he appreciates national security issues and other such issues. I hope, with the assurance that we will reflect on his proposal, the noble Lord is minded to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I thank the Minister. I am going to take that as his continued giving mood and I certainly would welcome a meeting. If you are going to have a political review, I do not see how it can be limited to the Executive; Parliament needs to be involved. I therefore welcome his comments and, in light of them, beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

To pick up on that final point, of course we will. I confirm that I used “necessary”. As regards the intervention from the noble Baroness, perhaps I did not quite follow her whole argument—various rules were in play—but I got the general principle that she was in support of the powers that are being conferred. As I said right at the beginning, laying it out in quite a lot of detail, I totally accept the point about the Henry VIII powers—the use of secondary legislation rather than primary legislation—which we have debated several times. Certainly, from our perspective as the Government—that is true not only of ourselves but of previous Governments as well—there is a point in principle that we try to strike a balance. Therefore I am listening carefully. On the specific point that the noble Lord made at the end, I will take that back and see how it can be adapted.

I am in reflective mode, as several noble Lords have noted during some of the earlier debates in Committee. However, on this group of amendments, I hope that after the explanation I have given the noble Lord will be minded to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I agree with many noble Lords who have decided to come back to the Minister before he sat down. His response has been disappointing. These are clearly issues of principle that we will return to. I find it amazing that often, when the Minister gives examples of how difficult it would be to do X or Y, they do not appear that difficult. You can give a reason why sanctions need to be revoked. At the end of the day, whatever Crown powers or executive powers there are, the political reality is that these figures work when there is consent—when people buy into them. We are attempting to ensure that the Executive do not act with untrammelled powers and that they have to account for their actions and explain them. If Parliament then gives its support and consent, those actions and powers become more effective. That is what this debate is about today. We will certainly return to this issue on Report, but in the light of the comments the Minister made to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Collins, for tabling this amendment. I agree that sanctions are not the first port of call, a point I have made in previous debates in Committee. The amendment specifically deals with the decision to lift sanctions, and it merits close scrutiny based on a careful assessment of whether the sanctions have achieved their political objectives, as the noble Lord said.

The amendment seeks to oblige the Government to issue a written memorandum alongside any regulation revoking sanctions which would set out the rationale in terms of the original purposes of the sanctions as outlined in Clause 1. While I agree with the important principle of parliamentary scrutiny, I believe that the Bill as drafted provides an appropriate level of scrutiny.

Let me elaborate, if I may. In the case of UN sanctions, revocation would be an automatic response to a decision of the UN Security Council. We can assume that the reasons for the lifting of sanctions would be clearly understood, making a report unnecessary. In the case of UK autonomous sanctions, the regulations could only be revoked using the made-affirmative procedure. The Government would also need to explain the rationale for lifting sanctions and would do this when presenting the said regulations. The explanations provided by the Government would cover the areas proposed in the amendment. However, the Government would need to be careful about putting the full details of the UK’s strategy in the public domain. I know the noble Lord appreciates that point.

This means that, although we support the principle of transparency, obliging the Government to issue a full written memorandum, as proposed by the noble Lord, would be inappropriate. With that explanation, I hope the noble Lord is minded to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I am not sure whether that is a cup half-full or half-empty sort of response. However, I shall take it away and consider it. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Collins of Highbury]

My Lords, I think this is one area where the Minister will have to be in his giving mood, because there is very strong opinion on it across the Committee. What the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, said is absolutely correct: it is a “just in case” clause. What if this happens? What if that happens? If things happen, there is a process and a procedure and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said it quite explicitly: bring in laws to deal with it; bring in a Bill that addresses those specific concerns. If it is an urgent situation that we had not thought of, there are processes and procedures we can adopt.

As my noble and learned friend said, there is an opportunity here for what he calls “pesky lawyers”. I am always cautious—whenever I dealt with lawyers in my life I always took the precaution never to ask a question I did not know the answer to. That is the situation here. Because you cannot think of the circumstances, but there may be circumstances, you say, “Let us put it in the Bill”. I am sorry, that is not acceptable. There is a consensus across the board on this and it is even a clause on which, as the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, said, the Constitution Committee and the Delegated Powers Committee are as one, as they are not on other clauses. So I fear this is one issue about which the Minister will have to think again.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions on this clause. I am hearing the message loud and clear, but in doing so I need to pick up on a few points as to the motive and the intent behind the clause. I appreciate the clarification by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, of the Government’s motives. I will not comment on his description of lawyers; it would be entirely inappropriate for me to do so. However, he makes a valid point about the explanation and it is appropriate to explain the Government’s intention behind the clause.

The clause will allow the UK to make amendments to the Bill, as noble Lords have mentioned, to allow for the imposition of new and unforeseen sanction measures, a point well made by my noble friend Lord Faulks. The power is confined to new types of sanctions and cannot be used to alter the purposes for which sanctions can be imposed. I should explain what I mean by new types of sanctions. Common types of sanction include asset freezes, travel bans, arms embargos and prohibitions on aviation and maritime transport. These are included in the Bill. However, the international community sometimes finds it necessary to develop and deploy new types of sanctions. Indeed, a recent example is the UN sanctions imposed in respect of North Korea. That resolution requires that UN member states do not grant work permits to North Koreans save where the UN agrees, in advance, on a case-by-case basis. Prior to the UN’s putting in place that sanction, such a sanction did not exist. There may be times in the future when a currently unforeseen type of sanction would again be appropriate.

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[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As I said, there are already, as the noble and learned Lord will acknowledge, various issues. We will do this in good order. Perhaps I may take this matter back—because various departments are working on this—and clarify appropriately. I will write to noble Lords on the specific date by the end of the week, which will then provide the detail. I fully acknowledge what the noble and learned Lord said about the importance of allowing effective scrutiny before Report. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick—I am sorry, I meant the noble Lord, Lord Paddick; the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has left but he clearly left an impression on me—that I look forward to working with him once the draft instrument has been circulated. For good order—I look over to the Box and my private office—once the draft has been published, we will seek to circulate it and lay a copy in the Library, as appropriate.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I, too, welcome the noble Lord’s statement that Report will not be until mid-January.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I think that I am being corrected by my rather forceful Whip on my left. I am sure that this matter will be clarified through the usual channels.

Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 21st November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I thank my noble friend for his intervention and wholeheartedly agree that actions speak louder than words. However, at this stage, we are discussing how we can ensure the effective scrutiny of these powers. What are we measuring them against? That is important. Earlier, noble Lords said that we could not just rely on the words used. We all admire the Minister’s good intentions but this issue concerns the future. I place on record that the next Labour Government will put human rights centre stage in all their actions. We will certainly take up my noble friend’s point but that is not what we debating. I do not want to make an election manifesto call just yet but I want the Minister to consider the mechanisms that can be included in the Bill to enable us properly to measure the use of executive power.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Collins, I was allowing for any noble Lords to speak, but of course we will continue to debate these issues. To pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, to whom I listened carefully, it is fair to say that sometimes we can be critical within the Chamber, whoever is in power or in opposition. One thing I have seen in my short time as a Foreign Office Minister but also as a Minister for Human Rights, whether at the UN, in Geneva or travelling around the world—irrespective of which Government of whatever colour has led our great country—is that not only do we see respect for human rights as being at the heart and centre of what we do but many around the world respect the UK for it and hold it up as a beacon. I assure the Committee that the Government do not take their human rights responsibilities lightly. My noble friend Lord Faulks alluded to the fact that not just here but in other places, in different parts of legislation, we ensure adherence to that. In this regard I am proud that, whether at the Human Rights Council, as we have recently seen, through various universal periodical reviews that are taking place with countries, or on quite specific issues, whether human rights on freedom of religion or belief, the protection of LGBT communities, or on gender equality and ensuring that women’s rights are represented, throughout my life the UK has been a bastion and a beacon for human rights. That should and will remain a cornerstone of British foreign policy in years to come.

I thank noble Lords for their amendments. It is right that we again emphasise that we should look carefully at the purposes for which sanction regulations may be created. It may be helpful if I say something about the purposes set out in Clause 1(2). These are designed to cover situations and purposes where the UK is not implementing a UN or other international obligation. The list of purposes has been designed to ensure that we can continue to implement sanctions for the full range of purposes for which we use them now as part of the European Union. The EU is able to adopt sanctions for any purposes of its common foreign and security policy. The reference to “foreign policy objectives” in Clause 1(2) seeks to provide the same type of scope when the UK has left the European Union. This is why the amendment tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Northover and Lady Sheehan, would, as my noble friend Lord Faulks highlighted, potentially restrict our options. It seeks to remove the ability to impose sanctions to,

“further a foreign policy objective of”,

the UK.

I appreciate and accept that Amendments 3, 4, 5 and 6 aim to define UK national security and foreign policy objectives in more specific terms. I have little difficulty with the language as such. However, we may risk missing important objectives of UK national and foreign policy that might justify the use of sanctions in the future. For example, this may limit our ability to act with our international partners in the future to tackle serious threats to the national interest.

Noble Lords may recall that in 2015 the Government published a national security strategy, which provides a clear overview of Her Majesty’s Government’s objectives in the national security sphere. The practice has been to update this strategy every five years, as this can act as an indication of some of the purposes of sanctions as set out in the Bill. I assure noble Lords that the Government will not have unlimited discretion. As I set out in the previous debate, the Bill contains a number of checks and balances on the Government’s action, including scrutiny by Parliament and court challenges.

On the additional purposes that have been suggested, I note that these reflect our current practice. For example, preventing grave breaches of human rights and international humanitarian law are already among the purposes of UN sanctions against the Democratic Republic of the Congo and EU sanctions against Iran. I am satisfied that we would continue to impose such sanctions based on the purposes of the Bill as drafted, and that is certainly our intention.

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[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken on this group of amendments. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, talked about Rhodesia, and historical context is one of the great values of your Lordships’ House—it always puts things into context.

The specific issue of banks and sanctions against Iraq in 1991 came up. As someone who spent 20 years in that sector and started his career at that time, I remember being acutely aware of those who were opposing the Saddam Hussein regime. It was perhaps used to having more liberal purses and was suddenly subjected to stringent rules based on those that were being applied in-country. Noble Lords have spoken quite rightly about the unintended consequences that lie behind sanctions. However, there are necessary occasions for them in the banking sector. As we have seen, certain banks in certain parts of the world will take a de-risking attitude, which then prevents essential services being performed. However, I will turn to the issue in front of us.

Amendments 8 and 9 make substantially the same points so I will address them together, if I may. First, let me stress again on record that I fully understand the reasoning behind these amendments. As the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, said, we have spoken about this during Second Reading and outside your Lordships’ Chamber.

It is important that, in imposing and maintaining sanctions, the Government do so with a clear understanding of what the impacts may be, and that there is a focus on minimising potential humanitarian impacts and other unintended consequences. I assure noble Lords that the Government work closely with humanitarian actors and NGOs and take their concerns into account when designing and implementing sanctions.

Last year, it was the United Kingdom that secured amendments to the EU’s Syria sanctions regime to provide an exemption for fuel purchases made in Syria by humanitarian organisations, which is exactly what the noble Lord, Lord Collins, talked about. Noble Lords may also be aware that, in October, after listening to NGOs, Her Majesty’s Treasury’s Office of Financial Sanctions Implementation published specific guidance for the charitable sector on sanctions compliance.

I assure noble Lords that the Bill provides the Government with relevant powers, such as issuing licences to help mitigate any potential impact on the operations of humanitarian organisations. EU case law currently restricts our ability to issue so-called general licences for the humanitarian sector, but the Bill would give us greater flexibility after our exit from the EU. When making and amending future sanctions regulations, the Government would incorporate humanitarian exemptions where appropriate, and these would be subject to parliamentary scrutiny.

As the amendment makes clear, there are already methodologies for assessing the humanitarian impact of sanctions, which are agreed internationally. These would continue to be applied. To require a humanitarian impact assessment to be published at the domestic level each time sanctions were imposed is something that I remain to be convinced about. It would duplicate the work already done at an international level before sanctions are agreed. It also carries the risk of causing delay, potentially undermining the effectiveness of sanctions.

The amendment tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Northover and Lady Sheehan, would require the impact assessment to be worked up in consultation with stakeholders each time. I fear that that might risk tipping off potential sanctions targets, who could then take evasive action. Again, this could undermine the effectiveness of sanctions.

I assure noble Lords that we will continue to work closely with our NGO partners. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, asked how we were taking that further. We are already working closely with colleagues in DfID on working with NGOs on how we can take the matter forward. The noble Lords, Lord Collins and Lord McNally, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, talked also about the NGOs themselves. I think it might be appropriate if, during the course of Committee and before Report, I make myself available to meet the NGOs to see how we may be able to further tighten up the language in this regard. I hope that following what I have presented to the House about the measures already in place, the noble Lord will be minded to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I thank the noble Lord for his response and very much welcome his commitment to meet NGOs so that we can discuss their concerns before we come back to this at Report. In the light of those comments, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Collins of Highbury]

My Lords, I do not have much more to add. Obviously, the amendments in this group are probing. I hope the Minister can respond in terms of what the current arrangements are in respect of the circumstances outlined in the amendments and how they may not be necessary. As the noble Baroness said, it is important that we consider all the unintended consequences, as well as our objective of imposing sanctions that are effective.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for raising this important issue. As we discussed earlier, the Government take seriously the impact that sanctions can have on the civilian population of a country and acknowledge the important work of NGOs and other humanitarian organisations in difficult situations.

The amendments would exempt ships or aeroplanes from sanctions if they are being used to transport refugees. While I agree with the principle of the amendments, which I know are well intentioned and seek to assist those who require international protection, in my opinion this is not the right way to achieve the desired effect.

I cited earlier the example of NGOs operating in Syria, where exemptions were granted on fuel access. We need to ensure that NGOs can operate in countries that are subject to sanctions by providing licences and exceptions. The Bill makes it easier—it is not just about having wide powers—by allowing government to draft exceptions and grant general licences aimed specifically at assisting humanitarian activities, including those assisting refugees or displaced persons, which is the intent behind the noble Baroness’s amendment. Of course, these are currently not permitted by EU law.

There are good reasons why broad prohibitions are applied to a country with licences, then used to provide targeted exceptions. That is the right way to move forward on this. If we were to provide a general exception for ships and aeroplanes in these circumstances, it could be subject to abuse and would be impossible to enforce. In extremis, it could help organisations circumvent sanctions. It would also be very difficult to apply in practice. If a person on a ship or aircraft claimed to be a refugee, such a circumstance would seem to engage the exemption proposed by the amendment. However, if it was later determined by the proper authorities and the courts that they were not a refugee, the ship or aircraft would have breached sanctions, as well as that person having circumvented immigration controls.

In many cases, it is impossible to tell whether a person is a refugee until after their claim has been examined and determined. I totally understand the intent behind the amendment, but I am sure the noble Baroness can also understand the difficulty it would pose in respect of a person on a ship or aircraft making such a claim.

I assure the noble Baroness and the Committee that the system of licences and exceptions currently in the Bill offers the best way to maintain the integrity of sanctions while ensuring that NGOs can provide humanitarian support to refugees and displaced persons. I committed during a previous debate to join the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Collins, in meeting NGOs perhaps to strengthen the narrative behind the exceptions—on how they work and how the current rules would be applied—but I am still minded to ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment. I feel that looking to strengthen the communication and availability of current processes to NGOs, as well as their knowledge of them, would be a better way forward.

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[Lord Collins of Highbury]

My Lords, I support all the amendments in this group and address particularly Amendments 40, 41 and 51 and the requirement for a fast-track process. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, I welcome the Minister’s commitment to meet the NGOs before the next stage of the Bill. It is important to understand that their anxiety is not due to the Minister’s lack of commitment, his intentions or the policy of the Office of Financial Sanctions Implementation, which has a stated policy of processing licence applications for humanitarian purposes as quickly as possible. However, the NGOs and all the amendments in this group seek to create more certainty because, as the noble Earl mentioned, delays occur and when sanctions are biting hard we are unable to get assistance where it is needed. Humanitarian crises can emerge extremely suddenly and we are most concerned about how the new regime will deal with them. As the noble Earl said, there are plenty of examples of the costs of slow-moving sanctions policy—for example, in Somalia in 2011, where uncertainty about the sanctions regime slowed down the NGOs’ response to the famine in that country. I certainly support the proposal of the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, for a general licensing exemption. I hope the Minister will come back with some very concrete reassurances after meeting the NGOs, so that there will not simply be his kind words but a declaration in the Bill to ensure that uncertainty is removed.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, Amendment 39 seeks to enable the procedure by which individuals or entities could apply for licences and exceptions to be included in the regulations. Amendment 40 would require the Government to establish a fast-track process for dealing with requests in respect of exceptions and licences for humanitarian purposes, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, just highlighted.

I would like to make it clear that the consultation on the White Paper raised the need for clear guidance and swift and robust licensing processes. I assure my noble friend Lord Dundee that the Government are committed to a positive reply on both issues. I hope the Committee will be reassured that, given the number of departments involved and the many different derogations, exemptions and grounds for licensing that exist, the relevant application procedures in each sanctions regulation are all contained in guidance. This guidance is publicly accessible to all via various departmental websites. To reproduce them in the regulations themselves would certainly create a substantial administrative burden and greatly lengthen the instruments, so we do not think it is necessary to do that.

On Amendment 40, the variety and complexity of exemptions and licensing arrangements in place means it could also be difficult to establish a single fast-track process that would be straightforward to operate. The Government believe that the criteria for considering the prioritisation for granting licences and exemptions should remain as flexible as possible. We have already committed to dealing with licences as swiftly as possible and we will of course prioritise urgent requests. The fact that a licence is required for humanitarian reasons is something that we already factor into, and will continue to factor into, the time we take to respond to the request. However, I am sure that noble Lords will also acknowledge that humanitarian licences are not the only ones that might require an urgent response. For example, a legal fees licence might be needed to enable an imminent court deadline to be met. To have a fast-track procedure confined to humanitarian licences alone might put these at additional risk by giving priority to a humanitarian needs licence that is not urgent over another request that is. For all these reasons, we do not consider that new requirements need to be added to the sanctions regulations.

I appreciate the sentiment behind Amendment 41, which proposes that a consultation be undertaken for an overarching framework for exceptions and licences. The White Paper consultation on exceptions and licences highlighted the need for good systems and clear guidance when applying exceptions and licensing. We have taken on board the comments of all respondents and replied to them and, as we said in our reply, we intend to design the post-Brexit licensing framework based on these representations. We also intend to consult industry from now until the day we leave the European Union and thereafter, to ensure that the framework allows us to be flexible and has the minimum possible effect on industry while having the maximum effect on the intended targets.

It is also true that an overarching framework for licences might not allow us to take advantage of the flexibility that we currently have for each regime. For example, the licensing grounds for a proliferation regime should be different from those of a misappropriation regime. Different types of sanctions also require different approaches. We currently have centres of expertise on the different types of sanctions, and any move to an overarching framework might put these at risk.

Finally, the Committee will be aware that the moment of leaving the EU is approaching. In that time, after the Bill is enacted, we will need to design the replacement UK regimes. To undertake a consultation exercise on top of that will make it harder to prepare in time. Given that the purpose of this amendment is to ensure good licensing and clear guidance, I hope I have been able to reassure the Committee that we are committed to both.

On the humanitarian exceptions, I have great sympathy with the intention behind Amendment 42; humanitarian, development, reconstruction and peacebuilding agencies need to continue the important work they conduct, often in very difficult circumstances, without fear of unintentionally falling in breach of sanctions. The Government should have the necessary discretion to enable this. The intended effect of this amendment is to make it explicit in the Bill that the types of exceptions that can be granted include,

“humanitarian, development, reconstruction and peace-building agencies”.

However, the addition is unnecessary, as Clause 14(2) as currently drafted allows the Government to create exceptions and issue licenses for activities that are not explicitly listed in Clause 14(2). It is the Government’s intention to use this drafting to create exceptions for a wide range of activities. Humanitarian activities are currently included under existing exceptions and licensing provisions in the sanctions regimes in place, and I assure noble Lords that we intend to continue to include them. Clause 14(6) is an additional clarification of purposes for which exceptions can be created, not an exclusive list. For this reason, accepting the amendment would have no effect on the powers, as they are already contained there and therefore unnecessary.

Clause 14(2)(b) also gives a power to issue general licences. This goes further than the position we currently have under EU law, giving the Government the ability to put in place licensing arrangements for humanitarian purposes, which would enable multiple parties to undertake specified activity without the need for a specific tailored licence. Given that this provision is unnecessary as we already have this power, I hope noble Lords will not press the amendment.

I entirely agree with the intent—although the drafting may need to be looked at—of Amendments 50 and 51, which we understand require the Government to provide guidance about enforcement procedures for sanctions breaches. The need for clear and accessible guidance was highlighted throughout the Government’s consultation on the White Paper. In our response, we said:

“We recognise the call for clear and consistent guidance. Accordingly, the bill would provide for the government to issue guidance on the content and implementation of sanctions. The government is committed to ensuring that this guidance would be of a high standard”.


I am happy to say that the Government have delivered on that promise and have included a provision in the Bill—Clause 36—requiring Ministers to issue guidance about any prohibitions and requirements imposed by sanctions regulations. There will be a mandatory requirement to provide comprehensive guidance for all those affected by sanctions implementation. One strand of the guidance requirement set out in Bill—in Clause 36(2)(b)—explicitly specifies that the guidance may cover,

“the enforcement of the prohibitions and requirements”.

In line with this, we intend to continue to publish guidance on sanctions enforcement.

Clause 36, which we will debate at a later stage, provides for a more comprehensive duty than that specified in the amendment. It has been drafted to allow guidance to be given to all persons in the UK and it enables consultation with sources of expertise as appropriate. For example, we do not expect that the CPS will need to feed into any guidance about how civil monetary penalties are issued in respect of breaches of financial sanctions.

My noble friend Lord Dundee asked specific questions about help for NGOs. I am not sure whether he was in your Lordships’ House when I discussed that matter with the noble Lord, Lord Collins, and the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. We will be meeting NGOs before the next stage of the Bill to discuss how we can better understand and address some of their concerns, but we will continue to issue clear guidance to them. I also assure my noble friend that we will provide speedy and efficient responses to requests for licences. As I have already indicated, under the Bill we can issue general licences, which offer more comfort to banks—which I believe my noble friend specifically mentioned—and give them a greater appetite to assist in these areas.

With that somewhat detailed explanation of where we currently stand on Clause 36, I hope the noble Baroness will be minded to withdraw her amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

My Lords, I do not want to repeat the comments that have been made. The one thing that I would make clear to the Minister is that he has a wide range of opinion against him on this, not least the Law Society’s own briefing, which raised huge concerns about this clause. The Constitution Committee has been very clear. The Delegated Powers Committee has also raised concerns, even though it says that the Foreign & Commonwealth Office has made “a compelling case” in relation to this.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, referred to the argument that it is impossible or too difficult to create a framework. The Delegated Powers Committee said that,

“the FCO’s reasons provide a compelling case for allowing the creation of criminal offences in sanctions regulations … Trying to set out the offences in primary legislation would risk producing offences and penalties that are defective or disproportionate or both”.

We have heard in the debate that it cannot be beyond the powers of the Minister to come up with a much better answer to this difficulty than the one currently being offered by his department. Even though the Delegated Powers Committee says that there is a compelling case, it thinks that parliamentary scrutiny should be enhanced if these powers are conceded. So I hope that the Minister will give deep thought to this and come back at some stage with a much better and more acceptable option.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, obviously I have noted the opinions that have been expressed, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins, said. I see that your Lordships’ Committee is concerned about the new criminal offences. To be clear: these types of offences already exist. People who breach financial, trade, immigration and transport-related sanctions can be convicted for those breaches in the criminal courts. We will continue to legislate on this basis so that breaches of sanctions can continue to be an offence.

We have set safeguards. We have set a cap of 10 years on maximum sentences for breaches of trade sanctions, which is consistent with the Export Control Act; for breaches of financial sanctions the cap is set at seven years, which is consistent with recent changes introduced by the Policing and Crime Act 2017. Coming back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, about differentiation between the types of offence, we have lower sentences in respect of information provisions and money laundering regulations.

I hear what noble Lords have said. The purpose behind the sanctions is to replicate the existing legal frameworks for enforcement across the various forms of UK sanctions that will be created by the Bill. For all types of sanctions, Clause 16 includes provision for creating offences and dealing with offences, including defences and the treatment of evidence. It also provides for powers and duties to be vested in persons who assist in the enforcement of any prohibitions. For example, for trade sanctions, Clause 16 enables regulations to apply any provision of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979, which provides a full suite of powers for the enforcement of these measures. The clause also enables civil monetary penalties, introduced in the 2017 Act, to continue to be issued for breaches of financial sanctions. It does not extend these to other types of sanctions. It also enables regulations made under the Bill to replicate the current position on maximum terms of imprisonment. I have already referred to that. It contains further powers for deferred prosecution agreements and serious crime prevention orders for all measures in the Bill.

Clause 16 also makes a provision that would enable the UK to extend the existing offence of failing to supply information on financial sanctions breaches. As noble Lords know, there is an existing duty on everyone to supply such information, which will be transposed by the Bill. However, the associated criminal offence for not doing so applies only to relevant institutions in the regulated financial services sector and relevant businesses or professions. The Bill enables the UK to equalise the scope of that duty and offence, as I said earlier, by making it a general offence applicable to everyone.

I assure the Committee that I am listening carefully to the representations being made, in particular those made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge. However, we believe that the sanctions enforcement provisions, including criminal and civil penalties, remain proportionate to the scale and nature of sanctions breaches and that they will continue to act as a deterrent. That is the ultimate objective. Although I am sure I will not get a ringing endorsement for—or agreement with—everything I have said, I hope I have outlined where the Government are coming from in drafting Clause 16. Based on my explanation, I hope the noble and learned Lord will be minded to withdraw his amendment.

West Papua

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 15th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the noble and right reverend Lord is referring to the media reporting on the petition, and he has presented the facts as reported in the media. However, on receipt of this Question I checked with our mission at the United Nations in New York and we certainly have not ourselves received a copy of the petition. Furthermore, the UN Secretariat has not received such a petition. As for the situation in Papua, particularly West Papua, the noble and right reverend Lord speaks with great experience and I know of his interest. The United Kingdom continues to seek to ensure that all rights, including those of media reporting, are upheld and we have been encouraged by the recent steps that the President of Indonesia has taken in granting increasing clearance for journalists to report from that region.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will know that at the beginning of this year his predecessor, the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, shared the concerns of the noble and right reverend Lord about human rights abuses. One thing that is clear is that those abuses are continuing and the Government are monitoring them. Will the Minister take this matter up at the UN and support the request for a special representative to investigate the continuing abuses of human rights?

Zimbabwe

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 15th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating as a Statement the Answer to the Urgent Question, and I of course wholeheartedly support the actions of the Government: protection of all civilians, including the 20,000 British citizens, is obviously the first priority. I see that recent press reports say that a delegation from South Africa was refused entry into Zimbabwe. Can the Minister tell us a little more about the contacts with not only South Africa but the African Union on the ongoing situation and the need to protect civilians? Can he further tell us that there will be discussions to ensure that the whole of the African Union will ensure that the elections scheduled for next year will be free and fair, and open to all people in Zimbabwe to participate in?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

First and foremost, I thank the noble Lord for his support for the Government, which reflects the continuing position of Her Majesty’s Opposition on this important issue. On delegates from South Africa being refused entry, I am aware of various media reports. I cannot give him a factual answer, but I will certainly follow that up. As I said in repeating the Answer, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary will be speaking to the Deputy President of South Africa. We will get an update and I will update the noble Lord and the whole House accordingly.

The noble Lord makes a valid point about the African Union. In that regard, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is due to travel to the next meeting of the African Union—in Ivory Coast, I believe —which takes place the week after next. Events may move on—they are very fluid on the ground—but I am sure that, in the conversation and discussion that takes place in the interim and at that meeting, Zimbabwe will be a priority issue.

Daesh: Raqqa

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 14th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the fact is that these fighters have gone somewhere. They have not disappeared, and there is a potential threat to neighbouring countries. What assessment have the Government made of the threat to neighbouring countries, particularly those which are fighting Daesh? Also, what assessment has the Minister made of how that release of fighters affects our ability to hold these criminals to account? It is vital that we do that.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I agree with the noble Lord, most certainly on his final point—the Government, as he knows, take very seriously the need to hold them to account. Just to put this in context, the number quoted also includes the families. The deal was known to the SDF, in particular, and was a local tribal deal. The purpose behind the evacuation was to minimise the loss of civilian lives in the fall of Raqqa, particularly those of women and young children. To track Daesh fighters we are continuing to use all agencies on the ground and to work with the coalition of 73 countries, including several neighbouring countries, to ensure that those who are seeking to leave the conflict zone in Syria and in Iraq are held accountable locally. If foreign fighters seek to return to the UK, there is due process in place to ensure that they are held to account for their crimes abroad.

Terrorism: Sexual Violence

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 1st November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure the noble Baroness that we not only condemn it but act on that. She will be aware of our action at the highest level at the UN Security Council with the passing of Resolution 2331, which addresses the nexus between human trafficking, sexual violence and terrorism. More recently, as I have said to the House, in September this year at the UN Security Council we passed a resolution specifically to set up an investigative team to gather greater evidence on sexual violence and crimes committed by Daesh in Iraq. That demonstrates the action we are taking at an international level to ensure that we tackle this head on.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, this is one of those critical issues that requires interdepartmental examination and is not just about UN activity. The relationship between human trafficking, sexual violence and terrorist groups is complex. Will the Minister assure us that the departments in Whitehall are working together to examine this so that consideration is given to both international law and domestic law?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I can give the noble Lord that assurance. Only two weeks ago, the Home Secretary, Amber Rudd, chaired a meeting of Ministers, including those from the Foreign Office and DCLG. They looked at the action we are taking domestically on the primary issue of modern slavery and the referral mechanism, which includes support for victims of human trafficking. The meeting also brought together elements of international action and our bilateral representation and leadership on this issue, and how modern slavery and human trafficking is one of many instruments used by terrorist organisations.

UN Security Council: Information Sharing

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 26th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord knows that our Armed Forces remain very strong and that we are at the forefront of relations with regard to peacekeeping. Indeed, I will talk about this very subject at the UN Security Council next week. Contrary to what the noble Lord has expressed, our partners not just in the Security Council but across the General Assembly welcome the United Kingdom’s leadership on a raft of different issues, most recently the Prime Minister’s personal initiative in leading the charge to combat modern slavery.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, building security requires more than co-operation on military and intelligence issues; it obviously involves co-operating with a range of countries. Of course, Brexit will be a crucial issue in maintaining that co-operation. The noble Lord is right to point out that we have led in Europe. If we are not there in Europe, how will we build security? What will be the mechanisms to ensure that we build security and lead on it globally?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

When I saw that this Question had been tabled, I said to officials that it might go quite wide—and, indeed, we have a Brexit-related question. First and foremost, I assure the noble Lord that of course, we continue to have constructive and productive discussions with our European partners. I am confident, as are all members of the Government, that we will reach a progressive and productive end to those discussions in terms of a new relationship with our partners in the European Union. Let me give the noble Lord a practical example. Most recently, the Prime Minister herself led on the important issue of security and countering terrorism, particularly on the internet. She chaired that meeting at the UN, together with the President of France and the Prime Minister of Italy. That underlines the co-operation we have in important areas such as security and countering terrorism. That is continuing, and will continue.

Raqqa and Daesh

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 24th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for repeating the response to that Urgent Question. I note that the Foreign Secretary will be giving a further, more detailed report to the other place and I hope that the noble Lord will be able to do likewise here. I have two brief questions. First, in the other place the Minister said that discussions about the future of the coalition were ongoing. Can the noble Lord tell us what role the armed groups that helped liberate the city from Daesh will play in its future administration and what we can do to assist? Secondly—I raised this point in the House last week, I think—we have seen horrendous crimes against humanity from all sides. It is important that the Government continue to support those who are gathering evidence so that ultimately we hold those responsible fully to account.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I thank the noble Lord for his continued support on these issues. He asked, first, what happens next. Our partner forces will close in on Daesh elsewhere in Syria. He will know that it is still present in the Euphrates river valley and on the border with Iraq. There, the Syrian efforts will meet up with those of the Iraqi security forces, closing in on Daesh from both sides. The noble Lord’s second point is well made, as I have acknowledged previously. He is right to say that those on all sides who have committed crimes should be brought to justice. On Daesh-specific issues, in 2017 I was pleased to report back from the UN General Assembly that a resolution was passed specifically on the UK’s efforts, including £1 million allocated by this country, to ensure not only evidence-gathering but the quick creation of a full investigation under the auspices of the UN to deal with Daesh. Other elements of the Syrian regime should also be fully accountable before international law.

Syria

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Thursday 19th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I partly answered that question in my response to the noble Baroness, Lady Northover. The £14 million was specifically in terms of political support. I referred to the negotiations committee, where the opposition are at the UN and at the Geneva talks, and money has been spent on ensuring that they have the skill sets to take part in those negotiations. Other examples include £39 million having been spent on roads, water supplies and sanitation. That is where the overall £200 million pot is being spent. I will write to the noble Lord with a specific breakdown, but it is very much about assisting the coalition of the Syrian opposition both to stand on its feet internationally and to start rebuilding the country locally.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, we should not forget that the situation in Syria has seen terrible crimes against humanity on all sides, including the government side. Will the Minister repeat Her Majesty’s Government’s commitment to hold these people to account and ensure that money is spent to ensure that there is proper evidence so that these people can be brought to justice?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I totally concur with the noble Lord’s sentiments. I assure him that he is right: this is not just about Daesh, although I am pleased that at the UN recently we passed a resolution in the Security Council that was all about holding to account those who committed these heinous crimes against humanity and wore the name of Daesh in committing their actions, which bear no resemblance to any humanitarian act. Regarding the Syrian regime, as the noble Lord knows, we are supportive of all resolutions. That is why we also take the strong stance that while the Assad regime is in place there can be no long-term political settlement of the situation. Let us not forget who created the crisis in the first place.

British American Tobacco

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 17th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

There is always a concern in the House of Lords; as one noble Lord who introduced me said to me, “Always remember there’s someone who has written either a book or a paper about the subject you’re about to answer on”.

We are entirely consistent; as I have already said, the Government stand very firm on the harmful effects of tobacco on those who indulge in smoking. Irrespective of that point, although it is a pertinent one, it remains true that our high commissioner was acting in the interests of a British company and within the rule of law, and that was qualified by the law ministry of Bangladesh.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

The key issue here is the international agreement we have signed up to. The Framework Convention on Tobacco Control says that in low and middle-income countries, the policies of Governments should be to increase tax revenue. That is what we signed up to—increased tax revenue on cigarettes. In the light of this decision in Bangladesh, will the Minister consider whether there is a need to ensure proper enforcement of that international convention?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I hear what the noble Lord says. I assure him that we are one of the leading nations in the developing parts of the world, of which Bangladesh is a good example, and want to ensure Bangladesh’s transfer to being a middle-income country. We are in favour of ensuring that all legal taxes which need to be paid are paid, particularly by British companies. This was a retrospective VAT demand. As I have alluded to on a number of occasions already, the law ministry disagreed with the action of the NBR, saying that there was no scope to demand VAT retrospectively.

Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 17th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Baroness obviously speaks with great knowledge of Iran. I assure her and indeed the whole House that we continue to raise these issues in a robust manner. I am acutely aware of the details of all these cases due to my responsibilities as Minister for Human Rights at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Equally, the noble Baroness will be aware that she calls upon certain elements within the Iranian Administration; I hope they heed that call but, unlike the UK, Iran does not legally recognise dual nationalities, so it views these detainees as Iranian nationals.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness referred to the softly, softly approach. Are the Iranians, in response to our representations, criticising any public campaign on behalf of Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe? If they are, it is about time that we stopped the softly, softly approach and started shouting from the rooftops that the rule of law must apply.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

When it comes to human rights anywhere—whether it is in Iran, or the issue of detainees in Iran who are dual nationals—the UK continues not only to fulfil its obligations but to demand consular access. As I said before, the Iranians view this case and others like it in a different light because they do not view the people involved as dual nationals. The noble Lord is right to raise this important issue but it is for the Iranian Government to respond to the international pressure coming not just from the UK but from other countries. We will continue to press the Iranian Government for early release.

At the same time, I can report some progress in this case. Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe, has been granted access to her family in Iran, together with her daughter, and I understand that they visit her at least weekly. She has also been having telephone calls with her husband. These are small steps forward and we will continue to make all representations at the highest level to ensure that we see a resolution of this case, and indeed the cases of all dual nationals who are currently in Iranian prisons.

Iran: Future of the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Monday 16th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Urgent Question. Alistair Burt said in the other place that the deal was hard-won and does the specific job it was designed to do. Of course, it was won by many people, with the superb diplomatic guidance of my noble friend Lady Ashton when she was at the EU. The deal is working. The Foreign Secretary told us the best way to influence the US is to stay close to the president, and of course six months ago he said:

“We were told that the … plan of action on Iran, was going to be junked”,


but,

“it is now pretty clear that America supports it”.—[Official Report, Commons, 28/3/17; col. 116.]

Will the Minister tell us what the practical implications for the UK’s policy are if the US eventually junks the agreement? Will the Government strongly reject attempts to make the deal subject to new conditions that have nothing to do with Iran’s ability to develop nuclear weapons? Does the Minister agree that the US rejecting the agreement will strengthen the hand of those in Iran who said, “Don’t trust the US”? It will make relationships incredibly more difficult. I hope that the Minister will be able to assure the House that the United Kingdom will remain strongly committed to this agreement.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I assure the noble Lord, and the whole House, that I stand with him in acknowledging the efforts of the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, in the negotiation of this deal. I repeat the words of my right honourable friend Alistair Burt: yes, it was a hard deal to negotiate, but at the same time we stand by it. The noble Lord asked about the US position. As he will know, the issue of recertification has been passed from the President to Congress. However, I assure the noble Lord that the United Kingdom’s position stays firm; we believe that the deal is the right one. As I said in my original response, we are seeing full compliance from Iran on the deal, and the IAEA is getting full access. As the noble Lord will I am sure have noticed, we stand together with others, including the German and French Governments; our Prime Minister issued a joint statement with the German Chancellor and the President of France on Friday, and those sentiments have been repeated by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary. We are working as hard as we can with all partners—in particular, with our European partners—to keep the Iran nuclear deal going.

Burma: Rohingya People

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Wednesday 11th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend raises an important point about the challenge and the burden that has fallen on neighbouring countries. We have talked about Bangladesh, and on the matter she raised, I can assure her that my right honourable friend Mark Field, during his visit to south-east Asia, also visited India and met with Foreign Minister MJ Akbar to discuss various issues, including the humanitarian situation and Burma itself.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome what the Minister said regarding the suspension of advice to the military in Burma, but has the same consideration been given to the DfID funding of parliamentary advice and the WFD funding of advice to the Union Government? While this genocide is going on, should we not suspend that activity as well?

Hurricane Irma: Disaster Relief

Debate between Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and Lord Collins of Highbury

Tuesday 10th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Perhaps the noble Baroness should have enlightened us on what she was alluding to in her question. The short answer is that the Government acted promptly. I have already alluded to the fact that RFA “Mounts Bay” responded. I think that we should take a step back and acknowledge the incredible efforts of our military, the FCO and DfID, as well as neighbouring states, including the assistance given by places such as the Cayman Islands, in responding to the tragedy which hit three of our territories and other regions of the Caribbean.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the information that the Minister has given, and I certainly welcomed the information given by the noble Lord, Lord Bates, in briefing Members of this House. However, one thing that concerned me was the unsightly debate at the Conservative Party conference about where the money should come from. We have a responsibility to our overseas territories, whether they are in need of ODA support or not. It should not be a question of taking money out of Africa to put it into where our responsibilities should lie, and I hope that the noble Lord will reassure us on that.